We react to Bill Ackman's advice to young men

0:00 I got the best opener. May I meet you, Sam? Oh my god. I feel like I can root Well I know

0:09 be what I want to I put my all in it like my day's all on the road less travel never doesn't. Did you see this? The May I meet you thing? I did see the context, but I saw the quote. Bill Ackman said, This is how you meet women. May I meet you. Is that right? Yeah, well dude this is we're doing a deep dive, by the way. This is not a this is not a casual reference. I'm going all this is my first topic. Okay, so tell me about it. What happened. The great Bill Ackman. We won't just call him Bill Ackman, he's gonna be called the great Bill Ackman.

0:37 Not only has he be has he proven to be A prolific billionaire investor. He's also just the best at Twitter. Because he uses it all wrong. It's like uh have you seen how Magic Johnson uses Twitter? No. Matt Johnson, the great basketball player.

0:54 Does not know how to use Twitter. He just tweets. The most obvious thing. So it'll be like Lakers playing the Celtics tonight. Whoever scores more points tonight's gonna take it home.

1:08 And it's like what? Yeah, that's how all games work. Whoever scores more points wins, or he'll be like They're losing now. If this stays this way, they'll lose the game. But he's not joking. He's been doing this for like seven years. And so Bill Ackman, if you don't know originally famous for being uh controversial and prolific investor, right? Yeah, he basically owns this company called Pershing Square Management. He's an activist investor. So what he would do is he would buy stakes in companies that, you know, he either really believed in that he thought were undervalued, but he's also an activist in that if he sees sort of corporate wrongdoing or he thinks.

1:43 company has had some sort of, you know, malfeasance. then he will come out and talk about it while taking a big short position against it. And so he did that with Herbalife'cause he's like, This is an M L M And This is not right the way that they do their MLM and he got kind of burned on that one.

1:59 Um But that's what he does. Okay. So he's a he's a billionaire, activist investor, awesome, whatever. Great stor great story. I want to have him on the podcast. His life story and his uh approach to investing is is pretty legendary. Yeah, he's got one of these stories I think where he was like successful in his Harvard dorm investing. Like that type of thing, I think. He's also like hit bottom many times and like bounced back. Uh okay, so he

2:22 So he said I hear from many young men. That way they that they find it difficult to meet young women in a public setting. In other words. Online culture has destroyed their ability to spontaneously meet strangers. I'm reading this, I say, Yeah. True.

2:35 I'm glad you're speaking on this. Nodding his head. Nodding head, nodding head. So he says. As such, I thought I'd share a few words that I used in my youth. Don't go there. That's when it stops. That's when you're talking about.

2:47 The head nod went from put everything I was doing down. What is that when I saw the dude from Red Bull jump out of the space station and skydive. I was like, Oh my God, he's talking about pickup lines he used in his youth. Let's hear this. He goes I would ask. May I meet you? Maybe I got to tell him that. May I meet you. I don't know. I don't know how you say this, but may I meet you? Before engaging further in conversation, I almost never got a no.

3:16 Oh my God. Uh that's evidently opened up the way for a further conversation. It got really I I I got to meet a lot of really interesting people this way. He goes, I think it's the effectiveness of proper grammar and politeness. Oh my god. You might try. And yes, this will also work for women seeking men. As well as same sex interaction. This is versatile. Just my two cents from a happily married guy about our next generation. So this thing goes.

3:42 Wild. May I meet you. You know you know what I told my wife when I saw her, I picked her up in real life, I said, What's the difference between a chickpea and a lintel? I don't pay five hundred dollars to have a lintel on my face. I made a joke about peeing on my face and it worked. I said, Thank God I didn't say may I meet Yeah, actually I don't think we're allowed to make fun of this given what you did. To actually meet your wife. If a if a girl will will reply to may I meet you, I think that she's not someone I wanna I wanna go out with.

4:13 Which I'm just joking, by the way, a little bit. I do think that you can uh walk up to a girl and be like What's going on? Like do you wanna hang out some time? Like I do think that like casual like a Yeah. Talking casual can crush it. But maybe Tender.

4:26 Tender with the May I meet you billboard. Love it. Yeah. There's people who are just going around doing may I meet you. Wait, wait, wait. That video already know just walk it up to Hawk girl saying May May I meet you. No.

4:41 So people are just going crazy with this man meet you thing, and it got me thinking. Number one. Bill Hackwood's the best. Number two. Do you think that this actually would work? And number three. This is totally improvised.

4:53 The top five MFM. formal pick up lines in addition to that. So we're gonna go there in a second. But first What do you think of this? Okay. May I meet you?

5:04 Like uh I have a joke that I say. Not a joke. When I when it comes to flirting, I think as long as the girl laughs, you could pretty much say anything. And so like you can kinda get away with anything. So if you say it in a certain way, yeah, it could work. But that's may I meet you is probably not the best. Right? Do you think if you were twenty Two or twenty three and you read this, you're a big Bill Acting guy, you're on Twitter all the time. Do you think you would have to be a little bit more.

5:31 Laughed and then secretly that Friday, gone out and done it. No. I would not have used this line. Would you have? I probably would have. So desperate. Beggars tape choosers, try everything. I read the book The Game, and then for like five years my opening line to anybody I saw at a party Well it's a

5:49 Hey, I need you guys to help me settle this argument I'm having with my friend. How many oceans are there? Five or seven. We had this whole elaborate story about an ex girlfriend and then uh it was like too much. And then if it was just loud if it was loud in the bar or the club or whatever They were just like, what? And then I was like I'm telling us Give it the background of a story first.

6:11 No, I'm just I'm just peacocking. That's the it's I'm just trying to attract you. All right, Tim. So uh I'm gonna take a second here. I'm gonna write some of our own pickup lines, because why is Bill Akron the only one who can give young men This sort of advice. I think we too should steer the next generation. So here we go. You want to take a second? Let's let's write down a few. Sean, I can't there's not a chance that I can come up with great pickup lines that first of all. I've been like married for like twelve years. Uh so uh I will give you three then if you can't give me a ready? I just wrote one down. How about this? This is actually a close cousin to me, I meet you. May I take your jacket?

6:50 So now First, she's already undressing. Second You're in. She's not gonna say no, right? She's very kind of you to do a generous act. She will think you work there. And that you're in staff. So now you just have to bridge that gap, but you're

7:05 You're the hardest part is done. You're into the conversation now. She's gonna say yes and start what we called sales as the yes ladder. So I like that one. I think that one's pretty good. Another one. Are you cold? I found that women are always cold. Uh, there's they're just a cold species. And so I just think you have a good chance of them being like, You know what? Yeah, I am cold. You see me, you understand me. And then from there you can maybe

7:29 You may have to give the jacket from the previous girl that you talked to. And give it to this girl. I can't believe you have Children. I can't believe that someone let you do that. I had a big advantage which was um

7:45 My wife. was looking for a guy like me. The lottery. She was I was like, What you your type is me? That's insane. Are you crazy? Is there something wrong with you? For some reason at my company Hampton we have twenty or twenty five employees twenty of them are women. We have just for

8:05 Men are getting left behind, as Scott Galloway says. I don't know. Something about it. And so I overhear all these conversations that they have. They brag. about their boyfriends being uglier than them. Did you know that women do this? They brag about it? Like they want to date someone who's

8:20 Uglier than them. Is that the craziest thing you've ever heard of? That doesn't even make sense. Because it implies something else, or is there more to the story, or that's the fact? Because they wanna be the hot they wanna be the hot one in the relationship. But have you you you've never seen this, Sean. Women like they want to feel. Explain so much. Yeah, same.

8:41 Um what's your third one? Uh okay, my third one is um Hey, I'm Bill Ackman. I'm the billionaire founder of Pershing Square, but nice to meet you. That one can work too. That one would work. It needs some pre work. That's actually this actually makes a ton of sense. I'm pretty sure he was like worth ten million dollars when he was like twenty seven years old. And so here, Bill Ackman, and also he's like six nine. By the way, do you know it's about being six three, yeah, yeah. So they were like oh you're a handsome six three rich guy also. You may. You may see me again. So yeah, this is not like the best person to get advice from. He might be on to something though,'cause you know what show women love?

9:22 Bridgeton. And they love the formality of Bridgerton. So maybe he's tapped into this like secret desire that they have to just like be incredibly formal or be treated like a princess. Dude, I used to think that as a kid, but I looked like Napoleon Dynamite whenever I try to like be proper Like it was as if I was like uh

9:40 It it just never worked, okay. Like when you had braces that we had afro like the uh Sampar High School your book photo. Like Hello, Miss Thing. Like it like Like it never worked, okay. It never worked. Frankly, nothing really worked. So who am I to say? But uh no, that never worked. All right, so a lot of people will talk about how you need a million dollars and three years of experience to start a business. Nonsense. If you listen to at least one episode on this podcast, you know that is completely not true. My last company, The Hustle, we grew it to something like seventeen or eighteen million dollars in revenue.

10:17 I started it. With like Three hundred dollars. My current company, Hampton, does over ten million in revenue. Started it with actually no money, maybe twenty nine dollars or something like that. Nothing. And so you don't actually need investors to start a company. You don't need a fancy business plan, but what you do need is systems that actually work. And so my old company, The Hustle, they put together five proven business models that you could start right now today with under a thousand dollars. These are models that if you do it correctly, it can make money this week. You can get it right now. You can scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Now back to the show.

10:54 Let me tell you about something. Let me uh I have two things I wanna get your opinion on and just ref on. The first let's do uh let's do all right, this one's short. Let's do this guy. Okay, so have you heard of this thing called the uh go to the two oh three media dot com. Oh. I I've seen this. So it starts with so first of all, if you've ever been on TikTok, you see these videos where it's like a young guy interviewing other like good looking people like at Washington Square Park and asking them like what they think of this deodorant or like you

11:24 Take a bite of this brand's chocolate and like what do you think? And it's like a review, but it's supposed to look organic, whatever. This guy named Josh. He started working with Oliver at Tabs Chocolate. You do Tabs Chocolate. Yeah. Yeah, is and was a popular product.

11:38 So this guy, Oliver, who was like a twenty year old entrepreneur, twenty-two year old at the time, hired this other guy named Josh, who at the time I think was only 19, and he's like, Hey, I'm gonna pay you money to go to Washington Square Park, which is a popular park here in New York City, and I want you to interview people about my chocolate and like get good clips that are testimonials for TikTok, whatever. And it worked. He killed it. So eventually Josh is like, I should do this for other people. So at the age of like nineteen or twenty, he drops out of Syracuse University and he starts doing this for other people. And uh He's now making three hundred thousand dollars a month in revenue doing this. So he's got something like forty six employees, which are a lot of freelancers. And he has uh he goes to parks in New York City, uh LA, and Miami interviewing people. And he tells the story about how he started, but in um actually the Wall Street Journal wrote about him and he's like, I just would DM founders on Twitter constantly. And I would show'em these videos that I'm doing and I would do free work just to get like

12:30 Some videos that maybe look more legit. And he starts filming these videos and now he's killing it. He's building this business and I'm not sure if this business is gonna be his like big thing. Who knows how like Huge as could be. But anyone who's bold enough. to go to one of these parks and walk up to someone at the age of twenty and build a company doing three million dollars a year in revenue.

12:49 This kid's gonna be it. Like it's we talked about how door to door sales It's like this weird breeding ground of incredible entrepreneurs. Also, you know. why Mormons so successful, like well one of the things they have to do is their mission.

13:03 Or you for two years, you block out the world, you wake up every day. You go knock on doors. And you try to spread the gospel about something you believe in. And like that also happens to be incredible training for entrepreneurship and sales. This is the same sort of thing. Not only is the agency kinda working,'cause well

13:19 He took a format that works on social, which is a street interview. But no founder really wants to go do this. This is like, you know, extremely exhausting to go do and You're basically putting yourself out there for rejection and hum humiliation along the way. And he just productized that. It was like let me productize this one ad format.

13:36 And so that's kinda genius. When he does this, I don't know if you see like he basically walks like thirty to fifty thousand steps a day when he's doing this. Like he puts his like uh you know, Apple Health tracker or whatever. And it's like yeah, he's just I'm just walking around. The entire day. I was walking like whatever, 10 miles a day doing these street interviews. It's a pretty incredible hustle. So first of all, just being a college kid and doing this, I bet you I don't know for

14:00 what the numbers were, but I bet you just him. He was probably could have Potentially I've been making Three hundred thousand dollars a year. Doing this. There's a skill here, but it's honestly mostly boldness and it's mostly just like getting after it. Like

14:12 Pretty much anyone could do this, but No one will do it, right? Someone's paying him them money because they're like, I'm too embarrassed to go talk to a a uh A stranger in the park and film this. This feels stupid. But then he's operationalized it. In fact, our friend, I originally heard about him because Ramont he was just Ramont was like, I'm I'm in New York City because I paid this kid some He's had the money, some absurd amount of money to like do these things. And I was like, What? He goes, Yes, man. I just give this kid tens of thousands of dollars and he's just walking up to strangers. And I'm like, That's so interesting that that's how scared we are, which Me too. I don't want to do it. I saw this guy's Twitter feed and I just called him because I was like, wow. I just DMed him. I was like, What's your number? And then we call I called him because I was like you.

14:48 You yeah, may I meet you, sir. And uh totally worked, by the way. I think he listens to the pods of it. I'm glad he we get to shout him out now. He's um he's a real hustler, man. And I think this is such a cool like Like I I have this phrase that sounds a little condescending and I don't mean it that way at all. In fact I'm I think this is like One of the best things you could do. Which is what I call like

15:08 A white belt business, like a star group business. So it's like basically what's What's a great first business to start? Because your first business probably gonna be one of your worst businesses. You're gonna be at your worst because you're just getting into the game. You're not your best yet. And you maybe don't have the the network, the capital, the skills or the the knowledge of what you the big things you want to go do in life. That's fine. Just get in the game. And this is one of the best examples of a just get in the game business.

15:34 Yeah. He's doing this cool in New York. Guess what? There could be af after listening to this podcast. If you're in I don't know, between the ages of like eighteen and twenty five And you're like oh man, I just want to be successful so bad.

15:48 I'm willing to work. I'm a hard worker. And you listen and there's nothing's working for you yet? If you listen to this and you don't go do this You're basically I'm calling your bluff then, right? Because this is a business that's available to anybody. You could be in Miami doing this, you could be in Los Angeles doing this, you can be in pretty much any city do this. Hell, you could be in the burbs doing this and it doesn't really matter. In fact, that could be your shtick is that it looks like or you go to Costco and you talk to ordinary people type of type of deal. Did you see this kid who has this page called The School of Hard Knocks?

16:16 Oh, this podcaster who's getting five thousand times more views than us. Yeah, it's not that good. We've done a podcaster. Well, it started like a man on the street. like short Instagram stuff. Now he's turned it into like a real thing. It the funny thing is it is a podcast is just so short, right? Like he does does the same thing. He's like, Oh, like I talk to successful people. I hold the mic and then I ask a question and then they answer. It's an interview. It's a pod it could be considered a podcast, but you're right. Like he what he did was he shrunk it into First a more authentic format.

16:46 Catching bumping bumping into somebody on the street. But at this point he's not bumping into Shaq and he had he had Tom Cruise on it. Tom Cruise on the it's like those guys see his content, they follow he or sets it up where he can bump into them. But he's really young. I think that guy's I don't know. Like He's got the F boy he's got the broccoli haircut. Like he looks he's he's gotta be like by law under the age of twenty seven if you have that. So I think uh it's kind of amazing what you know is it's this one minute compilation where he just

17:12 cuts up a quick question and answer with a star on the street and it just works great. Today's episode is brought to you by HubSpot because using only 20% of your business data is like dating somebody who only texts you in emojis. First of all, that's annoying, and second, you're missing a lot of the contact. But that's how most businesses are operating today. They're only using 20% of their data, unless you use HubSpot. That's when all your emails, your call logs, your chat messages to turn into insights to help you grow your business because all that data makes all the difference. Learn more at hubspot.com. All right, I want to show you one more thing. So um I sent you the article in the Wall Street Journal. So check this out. So in nineteen eighty one, Warner

17:49 Um was uh you know the big cable company or entertainment company and they decided to create a music channel. Where they will were basically just gonna be music videos and it was gonna be called M T V. And so they had a group of like four or five, basically like punk rock slash hippie guys who they said You're in charge, figure this out. And one of the guy

18:09 The guy's name was Tom Freston. And Tom Freston had this amazing article about him in the Wall Street Journal the other day. And I want to get your take on this. But basically he tells the story of like founding Uh MTV. And MTV

18:21 Uh you know, you and I were raised with it, but the people who are in their 18, 19, 21 years old now. The MTV they know they know now is not what it used to be. So what it used to be was basically. Uh music, music videos. And then also Cartoons.

18:37 And like some T V shows that was like uh And things like that, yeah. Yeah, but eventually MTV, they became they owned Nickelonian and they owned uh Comedy Central. And so listen to like the things that uh this guy Tom, he was ahead of the pro he was uh in charge of programming. Listen to some of the uh Billy of the Week, right? Yeah, listen to listen to I I think he's a billionaire. I don't know, but listen to some of the shows that he that w came because of him. Blues Clues, Beavis and Butthead, The Adventures of Pete and Pete, SpongeBob, Daria, The Daily Show, Jackass, South Park. Crank anchors, the failure odd parents, Chappelle Show.

19:11 Um The last M uh airbender, the Cobera port. Uh Ren and Stippy, The Real World, Door the Explorer, Rugrats. I'm gonna have a nostalgia seizure over here. You're just saying those names, names I haven't heard, thoughts I haven't had. And so it's like he like this article goes really in deep, but there was one thing that really stuck out to me. So listen to this quote. So Tom like tells a story and he has like all these hilarious bits. So he was like basically he was like we were like the rejects. He was he goes, the receptionist sold cocaine and the office had one clothing rule.

19:40 Yeah. No frontal nudity. Like

19:46 He was the these guys were the real deal, man. But he's got this amazing line. So he says He goes, I had this idea. I said, Let's find the type of pot smoking guys in high school who sat in the back of the class that could draw well and have some character living inside their heads, like this crazy guy named Steve who made up SpongeBob. And let's get these guys who don't know anything about how to make a T V show or a series and school them and we're gonna crank these things out. Yeah. So good.

20:12 That's great, right? And the reason I thought that was interesting is because First of all, there's like four founders of MTV and like they are now like the mafia a little bit. Like one of'em was Bob P uh Bob Pittman, who is the CEO of iHeartMedia. Another guy runs the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. They're all like You know, big shots. But I thought it was interesting. This line because in business, I think you and I uh at times have fallen in this trap, but I think we're actually better. And I think a lot of our listeners do this.

20:39 Where they come up with an idea and they kind of like iterate their way like to this idea. versus taking a stance and saying, like, for example, I think Barstool has done I I don't particularly love Barstool's content, but I think they've done an excellent job of like planting their flag and saying, this is what we are and this is the bet we're making. Or um Vice did a good job. Or they're like, we're youth culture and we're gonna like do give inexperienced guys cameras and send'em to Africa and maybe they get something. Or Pixar saying We think that computers and animation can tell stories just as good, if not better, than real life actors. But the idea of like putting your

21:12 You're saying this is the bet? We're taking this bet. And even if it's a silly bet of saying we're gonna give like pot heads like jobs and like let them create content. But when you when I look back at that, I think that's actually Like brilliant and very romantic and very cool. It's like Take a stance.

21:26 Yeah, that's uh I feel like you did this with the hustle. Um I gotta give you some props here. When I think about who in my Kind of group did this. I would say there's really two groups of people. One. Alex Two and Michael Acton Smith.

21:40 And they were doing Calm. They had from the beginning this idea, there's this like a problem that they wanted to solve, which was like Meditation is this thing that's incredibly good for you and so few people do it. And

21:55 Even when the initial results were like somewhat lukewarm. And it was unclear what to do and investors didn't want to fund it. They did not iterate and pivot like crazy around into like other ideas. Like, oh, today we're a messaging app and tomorrow we're gonna do delivery of uh weed and you know, whatever else. Like They were like no, we're gonna do Fifty different.

22:16 Attempts to make Meditation a thing. the thing we think is important and that's what we believe in. And so like that's what we're gonna do. So they did like They launch this app called Do Nothing for Two Minutes.

22:27 It's like meditation in disguise, right? Like almost like a gimmick. It was an app or if you touched your phone. In a two minute period. It would start over, but try again. And it was just by calming music, like waves crashing on a beach.

22:38 And just for two minutes you just couldn't touch your phone. You couldn't use it for anything. The next one they did was this app called Checky. Which is an again, they did this viral app about like how many times a day do you check your phone. So, right, like we've heard of this idea of screen time. It's like oh I've you know, whatever. I can go to the settings app and find this. Check it would be like, Hey, you don't do you know you've you've checked your phone, like you've unlocked the lock screen. Three hundred and ninety eight times today.

23:00 Like you are the little rat in the maze who's addicted to the pellets, you know, like the cocaine pellets. You're pushing the button over and over again trying to see if you can get the prize out. And so they did many different versions of this ultimately Sleep stories was the thing that that worked for them uh and helped them really accelerate growth. But it was the same thing as meditation at night instead of just during the day. And um And they did it. They pulled it off. And I just remember when it was so uncool

23:24 And so lack of like lack of momentum, lack of investment traction, lack of sex sex appeal. Um there was no other comparable in the market. That was like We're just we're doing what they're doing, but in our category, which is what entrepreneurs use to validate themselves. And they kept going. So I thought that was a plant your flag and I thought you did too, where you were like a betting on email.

23:44 Yeah. And we're gonna be independent. I was like, dude, Facebook videos right now going viral. Snapchat just came out. You gotta do start doing Snapchat. And like I tried to dangle every shiny. We didn't even have an Instagram handle. We didn't have an Instagram. I think when we sold, I don't think we had Instagram.

23:58 And you were just like, No, we're gonna be and you kept calling it a pirate ship. And I was like, Brother, it's a newsletter. And you're like, No, I'm building a pirate ship. I said, I'm building a pirate ship and every email subscriber I get is just a little bit more wind in my sails. And I was like, Why is he reciting poetry? And I also kinda liked it. I was like, Damn, I don't say cool stuff like that as a CEO. I should I should probably Have lines like that. And uh and then you had like a A tattoo of a pirate ship on your thigh and I was like, Bold bath fun, baby. That's the uh that's the uh male version of Live Laugh Love.

24:29 You wearing shorts right now? Pop that sucker up. Well, I wear pants all the time now, because I don't want people to see it. Ha ha Sold the company. Still got the tattoo though. Um so yeah, I thought you did a great job of the plant your flag in the ground. Well let me tell you where I where I messed up. I messed up not I I messed up not believing a couple things. One, I messed up okay, so when people start something

24:53 Most things don't work right away. Even though whatever you see on our podcast and all these things, they don't They don't work right away. The the thing is is can you deal with the pushback and stay the same? And that's really hard to do that every day. It was really hard for me to do that every day. But the second thing is underestimating how big something can get. I drastically underestimated how big we could get. So I think the year we sold, we did twelve million in revenue. And I was like, I think I can get this to fifty, sixty, seventy. And I was like,

25:19 But looking back, I was like This is foolish. So Morning Brew our competitors who um They only sold part of the business, so they were able to keep running it. They're at ninety million in revenue. And I could give you other examples of people that are doing hundreds of millions of revenue. And so same with Barstool. If you say that to Barstool, if you look at them in like 2014, you're like this company is going to make hundreds of millions a year in revenue, you would say, That's insane. That can't happen. Same with Calm, a meditation app. It's going to be a multi Multi billion dollar thing. And I think the issue is you underestimate how big something can get because you don't realize that the TAM, once you have a really cool product, it can expand. And I think that that's really hard to see because the numbers don't say that, but you just have to have faith.

25:56 Right. Yeah. Everything takes longer than you think. What? It can be bigger than you think. That's kind of the the weird like rule of thumb for an entrepreneur.

26:06 You think it's gonna happen faster? It's not. Sorry. It's gonna take way longer than you want and then way longer than you think, way longer than you expect. But on the upside, you've probably underestimated yourself, even though you think you're being Mr. Ambitious. Yeah, exactly. And I have this I want to hear about your mistake, but let me tell you one quick thing. So the very first okay, so before my company, The Hustle, before we were an email newsletter, we were in events business, whatever, and we had Tim Wessergen. Tim Wesserton's this guy who founded Pandora. Pandora It doesn't get talked about enough, uh, nowadays, but I'm pretty sure it's still a multi billion dollar revenue business and

26:39 I think worth tens of billions of dollars and is one of the early pioneers of the app on the iPhone. And Tim Westergen has this amazing story where basically he um it was the But he told the story at my event and then I wrote about it on the hustle. It was the very first article we ever published and it got like it went viral.

26:55 And the title of the article is Here's How Pandora's founder convinced fifty early employees to work for two years without pay. Basically, the company uh started the music genome. And what he did was he raised five million dollars and he convinced fifty or to a hundred musicians, struggling musicians to come work for him. And he basically had a I think he I think it was legitimately an Excel spreadsheet. And he created fifty attributes for a song and they would sit all day listening to music and they would write the attributes in the spreadsheet. And eventually after doing this for years, they had this massive database. But unfortunately it didn't find product market fit. They just have this database, but they're not they're like, what what do we do with it? And so originally they had it in Best Buy where you can listen to a CD in Best Buy and be like, here's ten other CDs that you could potentially buy that fit that uh CD, that song. But it wasn't really working. And so he ran out of money.

27:43 And but He was like, This thing is magical. And he convinced his employees to continue working for him for I think like eighteen months without pay. And someone in the crowd goes, What speech did you give on a weekly basis to convince these people to to work for you? And he goes, Yeah, I got the exact quote. He goes, Man, it's hard. If I close my eyes though, I think I could figure it out and he says We all know that we have created here is very unique and it's solving a gig gigantic problem. No one on earth is gonna do what we've done. And when you use this product, we all know how magical it is.

28:12 It will find its home. Everyone on the planet loves music and there's millions of musicians who produce great music and they can't find each other. When this thing finally finds its home, it's gonna change culture. How many times in your life can you say that you've had a chance to do that? That's what this is about. Funky, right? How good is that?

28:30 That's almost a separate skill, which is you make everything bigger than it is. Elon is the master of this. So you know, he'll he doesn't just say Hey, we're gonna Um, build a company that launches satellites.

28:44 He's not even gonna say we're gonna build a company that launches you know, the the best rockets, reusable rockets. He's like we're gonna take Humans From being a single planet species to a multiplanetary species. Which is basically gonna save the human race and all consciousness as we know it in the universe, because something will happen to the earth at some point.

29:02 And there's no plan if we don't do something. So he creates this incredible grand scale vision. Sense of urgency. And purpose around what he does. But you can do that with anything. Like, you know, it's like.

29:14 When he g he got like a co worker pregnant and he was like He was like the biggest risk to civilization is underpopulation. We need to be having more children. And I was like, This is A Teflon Don Like how is he Neo in the Matrix away from these bullets that are coming at him for impregnating his own. Yeah, he was like it was the most noble cheat I'd ever heard of. I was like, This is incredible. How did he tie this to the collapse of population and Civilization itself.

29:48 It was amazing. But you could do this for anything. Like have you read the biographies or uh the listen to the founders podcast on Patagonia Or Dyson. Sure haven't. Okay. Well, do you know anything about Dyson? Um I know that Dyson's so hot right now.

30:02 Every uh it's like the cool thing for a successful CEO to be into. It's like you know who my hero is not? It's not Muskin Jobs, Dyson. It's the cool thing to say. Dyson basically uh I think they do three things. Vacuums uh hand dryers like in and Brushrooms and blow dryers. So blowing and sucking, basically. That's not like inherently cool.

30:24 But they're why are they such a cool company? It's because the CEO has done such a good job of like grant like making like in my opinion, Dyson is um the standard of excellence. And so when I think of like if I'm an employee wanting to work at Dyson, I'm like vacuums it's like well no like It's the excellence. Like we are gonna make uh the best. And there is something very appealing about that. And so you don't have to be going to Mars, I think, to give one of these speeches. And by the way Any time you have more than fifteen employees

30:52 Your job is basically like Forty percent this. Like right. Like and so you have to get good at this. And so I don't think you need this world changing product to say like This is cool. I mean we're talking about rug rats and fucking SpongeBob. And we look back at it and it's dope, right? Like it's like how cool would it be to be part of that and changing culture. Yeah.

31:10 Yeah, I I've really come to appreciate that Everybody who's successful in life has just taken a simple idea very seriously. Way more seriously than you would expect, way more seriously than it was necessary, way more seriously than everybody else. And Whether that's Bringing cartoons to, you know, to T V sets around the country, or it's

31:29 Making a vacuum cleaner that's better than the last vacuum cleaner is better than any vacuum cleaner that sucks more than anyone else can suck in the world. Like yeah, like whatever it is, like If that's your thing. Yeah, that's your thing. It kinda doesn't really matter. What your thing is because your experience of it, it's gonna consume your world. One of our most beloved person is Nick Ray, who hosts cocktail parties.

31:50 Two hour cocktail parties. Yeah. He took it very seriously. He's like, I'm gonna write a book. about how to host a dinner party. And it's like are you sure you need to It's not an email? He's like no.

32:01 It's a book and it's a science and it's an art, and I'm gonna master it. And that's why he's You know, that's why he's fallen in love with it. That's why he's done such a good job with it. That's why he's it's really opened up all these doors. It it became much bigger than somebody would expect something like that to become. And so a lot of life is just about picking a simple idea and taking it seriously. Of course, some ideas are a little bit more uh impactful or or fulfilling than others.

32:23 But um I think they take it seriously. I think well, you know, I spent so much of my life focusing on the pick an idea part. Right, pick a simple idea and Actually it was the take it seriously muscle that needed to be built better, right? That was the thing I was I was

32:37 we get and it's w it didn't really matter what simple idea I picked. If I couldn't if I didn't learn how to take it seriously. So me and Tyler, the CEO of Beehive, came up with a little challenge for you. It's the newsletter challenge. Now, if you know me, you know that I'm a big fan of newsletters. I got my own newsletter. I also had a business that was a newsletter business that was amazing. I wrote this newsletter about crypto, we grew it to quarter million subscribers, and we ended up selling it after a year for millions of dollars. And I want you to be able to do the same thing in your business. So we're doing a challenge. 10 grand is on the line. Plus, me and Tyler will actually be in your corner as growth advisors. You just need to go to bhy.com slash MFM and you either start a new newsletter or you move your current newsletter over there and five finalists will get picked to pitch me and Tyler sort of like Shark Tank and the winner gets 10 grand. So go to bhyive.com slash MFM. That's bhy.com slash mfm to enter the challenge today.

33:28 So you're writing this book series, uh I'm trying to find the URL. One hourbooks dot co. So Sean's talking uh is writing um a really cool series of books. So one hourbooks dot co. Go to your go to his website and sign up. And you your first one is on creativity. You should really Google MTV and Comedy Central and Nickelodeon in some of the early years because um I started going on this rabbit hole. And I started reading about the guy named Steve um I forget his last name, Steve, who started SpongeBob.

33:54 And so this guy basically was a teacher, like a grade school teacher in San Francisco. Then he became a marine biologist. And then he quit doing that at the age of twenty eight or twenty nine and went to school for animation because he loved drawing comics. In his free time. And he eventually like kinda worked his way up to Nickelonian and he worked on Rocco's modern life.

34:13 And then from there he got in and he was able to pitch SpongeBob. And SpongeBob. was like a silly show. It was almost like a show that our parents didn't want us to watch. A little bit because it was there's something weird about it. Uh, but it wasn't inappropriate, but it's like silly. But his passion for marine biology and everything led to creating this. And I thought it was really beautiful.

34:34 And something that I don't know is going on with the world of creators on YouTube. Is this like fiction style content, or in particular animation, which I loved as a kid. And so I would love to see some of that stuff because a a lot of the stuff on YouTube now doesn't talk about that. I mean, I don't think that that's like That's not really a thing. But I do think do you think that there's room for that? Like do you think that like Do you know anything in that space or does this interest you? I know that our friend Dylan Jargon was trying to do something where he was doing comics and I actually thought it was pretty awesome.

35:02 We've met the guy who was doing this. Have you s uh do you remember The amazing digital circus. Go to YouTube. And look up the amazing digital circus. Pile the pilot the first episode of this.

35:15 Currently has Three hundred and ninety eight. million views on YouTube. Yes. Yeah, okay. Of course. You remember this? Yes. So this guy, Kevin and his brother.

35:26 They are based in Australia. And they had like a passion for uh animation. They didn't really know what to do with it, but they just decided like look We're sitting in Australia, we're guys have never done this before. The odds of us getting a deal with Netflix or Hollywood is super low. But maybe we could just make something and put it on YouTube. And so they worked on this. They they basically were using

35:47 uh gaming engines, which is not what you use for for normal TV shows. uh for animation. So they started using like Unreal Engine or whatever, Unity, well I don't I don't remember. Instead of making a video game out of it. They animated this wild show with a little bit of a dark humor. And it's basically like anime, but done for the West.

36:05 So they've remixed the idea, which is one of the core creative tools, I guess find a new connection of old dots. And so they've connected the old dots of anime. And like, you know, sort of like Pixar animation. And they created this show on uh YouTube. And it gets hundreds of millions of views. Every episode.

36:22 On every single episode. And we were there. I was s I s I don't know Jimmy Mr Beast that well, but I said hi to him and I started talking to him or whatever and he goes, Do you want to meet Like the guy who inspires me or who I think is even better than me. Or like he like deferred to this guy. Yeah.

36:39 Yeah, like w with with Hoop Group we basically say like all right, Jimmy, like do you have three or four people you want to invite that are not in our network. We're bringing a bunch of people from our network. uh who's in your network that you think is awesome. And he this was one of the guys. Um and so Uh and he was. He was an awesome dude. And th you know, they're doing And I was like, So wait, so you

36:57 You spent all this money and time, you make these crazy animated things. Uh you know, it's kinda like the Spongebob guy, right? It's like Just a guy with an idea and a sketch and then turns it into a show. And they were making like tens of millions on just merch drops, just p fans buying the merch of their thing. That was the business model. It was literally selling T shirts at this point. And then I was like, What? I think they got a deal with

37:22 Either Amazon Prime or Netflix. And um so now they're gonna bring their show Now like Hollywood wants them basically. And so now they're going to their show to one of the big streaming platforms. Uh and they cut a very unique deal where they didn't have to take it off YouTube because they were like, No, we're keeping it on YouTube. YouTube's our our place where we're building

37:39 A giant fandom and um I mean you know how few videos get four hundred million views? Like you literally have to had made despacito to get four hundred million views or like gung up style. Like this it's not like a number that a normal YouTube video can get. And this is their own original content. There's also something interesting here going on where

37:59 I'm romanticising eighties MTV. And then you're romanticising this this guy now. But Like this guy, Kevin, uh Digital Circus, like

38:08 He's only a handful of years into his journey. And when we were with him I thought that that was neat. It was just like, Oh, that's cool. Now I'm looking back and I'm like, that's very romantic. That's very badass. It's it's very interesting that you don't see that at the time when you're doing it. But I do think that I have to work on I think everyone does have to work on like reframing things because it would make it so much more fun to work on and you could like

38:31 keep going for a lot longer because now I see this and I'm like, Oh, this is amazing. Keep going. Kee g keep doing this. But when he when I talk to him, He was one of twenty Interesting people. Mm-hmm.

38:41 Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, so true what you just said. I noticed a few people who do this now. In fact, we just had Ben Horowitz on. And after we stopped recording He had told us the story on the podcast.

38:54 About this incredible Like Uh leader in Haiti. I think it's John Overture. Yeah, Tucson of Sh he's like he had read this book about him or read multiple books about him. There's a book called Black Spartacus. And he told the story about how this guy who I think was a slave became like the leader of a five hundred thousand person army and was like one of the few places where

39:14 Um Slavery ended. as like out of like a successful revolution. Like and they like changed the norm. And it was just like just incredible. And so yeah, as a guy who's investing in world changing leaders. I think he was just fascinated by how somebody pulled this off. And so we were like, How did you actually be a really good take. I didn't put that together.

39:33 That's actually that's pr that's a really good in insight actually why he liked him. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if he consciously did that or not, but yeah, obviously there's an appeal to it. So he uh after the pod was over, we were like And on the podcast uh you know, uh What was your inter what was your uh impression of Ben Horowitz? Like oh what's oh cool, you you did a pod with Ben Horowitz. What's he like? What would you have said?

39:54 A top ten So we've done Seven hundred and fifty. He's in the top ten of like wisdom people. And but would you say like He's like outlandish personalities, outlandishly smart. Is he outlandish in any domestic um surprisingly

40:10 Good hand. Surprising well balanced, good hang. Seem like a n like a more normal dude than that your average Tech. Billionaire type of guy. He seemed like a really good father. But he seemed like someone who I could like ask for advice and it wouldn't be extreme. Right. So

40:29 I was thinking about that. I was like, this guy this was just like a great hang with a just a great dude, but more on the normal side of the spectrum than I would have expected, just cause I've gotten used to every time I meet these extreme outliers of performance. They often come with These kind of sharp edges. I think his partner Mark has that. His partner Mark seems sharp. Like uh

40:49 Yeah. Polarized. thirty percent extra headroom. Like, you know, you you can just hold more brain in there, dude. Like it's like oh, I can be it's hard to it's like seeing LeBron James. It's like, Well, okay I can see That were different.

41:01 Like, yeah, we're both, you know. Both humans, but like you're six nine and you could fly and I'm I can't. So like I get there's a difference. That that happens to a lot of tech guys. You're like, Oh, you're literally just super smart. You process information differently. He even said it. He was like People get confused'cause he knows Mark Zuckerberg and Peter Thiel and all these guys and he goes, people get confused

41:21 They think that those guys have like low EQ, like they don't they don't understand people'cause they kinda stutter and stammer and they they they're a little awkward. He's like no, they actually have a pretty deep understanding of people. You wouldn't be who they are if you didn't actually understand people. But they're processing data at such a high rate. That It's a little bit awkward when you hear them try to talk and reply because they're processing they're just literally processing so much information. And I was like oh that's

41:47 An amazing way of putting it. Anyways, back to kind of what I was saying on him. At the end of the podcast, we stopped recording. And we asked him, we were like, How did you get into that Tucson guy? Like that's crazy. Like where'd you how'd you hear about this? And

42:00 He said something. He goes. I was thinking about Um Why slavery ended?

42:07 And I was like Oh my god, I'm glad we stopped recording because that's you get canceled for saying something like that. Like this is you know, Rich White Billionaire wonders why slavery ended. PR for you. No, but then he he he had a really good answer. And I we didn't even say anything, but he's like because You know, slavery was not just a A human rights issue, it was actually also the economic model of the times. So he's like, you know, slavery been around for a long time and in many different places it sprung up organically. It's not like one system that was ported everywhere, like different countries e each came to the same thing I think he said he he goes, the aqueducts in Rome were built by slaves. Yeah, pyramids were built by slaves. The aqueducts were built by slaves. He's like it was the suc it was the functioning economic model.

42:50 So it got me curious. Why did it ever end? Yeah. And and but he didn't mean it like uh I'd just be super, super clear. He was not saying it's a good thing. He was of course literally thinking from first principles like Huh, isn't that interesting that this This thing that was working. Thousands of years and then all of a sudden and suddenly it stops. You'd be kind of curious, like what stopped it?

43:10 And he's like Haiti was the only place where it was like a bottoms up successful revolution where they just decided to change the rules. without law without w like uh I I think I don't know w how he was saying it but it's like it was different than like the civil war, for example. Um and so He was like that's what got me curious. And I thought

43:28 Ah, there it is. There's your weird bone. Like you know, you have your funny bone on your elbow. Like I found it. I found your special sauce. You asked a question. That the rest of us would've never asked. You leaned in and got curious about something. that we would have all just accepted at face value, and there are so many of these. And life.

43:47 You realize this when you have kids and they're like Um Well how does this building get built? So there's people. What Where do people come from? And you're like, oh my God, um, people come from this. And it's like, but why didn't this just happen? And you realize how shallow your knowledge of the world. Actually is. Not just scientific, by the way. It's like

44:05 Like my son was like um Why can boys show their nipples and not girls? We're going to the pool. And I'm like I'm telling my daughter, like your swimsuit and my son. Couldn't find his and I was like it's fine, just go in. And he's like But why? And I was like Honestly.

44:22 I have no idea why that would be horrible if she did it and it's totally fine if you do it. I have no clue Do you know? I don't know. Yeah. And so there's like there's all these things we just sort of accept, we just take it because it's like too much mental energy to go try to Answer every question. And the great ones get curious about like obvious things. They see things on the floor that the rest of us aren't looking at and they just pick it up. And like that's where they become great. I love this topic because um Eddie Murphy has a documentary on Netflix.

44:51 It's so good. It's a two hour I gotta watch this. It's two hours. People forget. We grew up listening to him. Or watching him people forget how uh impactful he was. I mean, turn off this podcast, go to on if you're on YouTube, just go to the search bar, just type Eddie Murphy Raw. And just go back.

45:08 And so we talked about that. And so basically Eddie Murphy was famous starting at the age of eighteen. Eddie Murphy was on SNL at the age of eighteen. And it's a whole documentary about his creative process, but also it's really interesting. Eddie Murphy was famous at the eighteen in New York City when he was twenty five, or actually twenty two, I think he was the star of Beverly Hills. uh you know the police movie and he was the most famous guy on earth and he hung out with all the craest people and all of those guys now, you know, prints Uh Rick James, all these guys are dead because they were drug addicts. And he was like, I was sober the whole time because I don't drink, I don't do drugs. And so they talked about that. And so anyway. He talks about being funny and he's like, I don't really think of myself as a comedian. I'm an artist, um, and I express myself via comedy, but I could do anything because I've done serious movies, I've done everything. And he's done uh I've done action movies. It's very inspiring, but he has one line that has stuck with me.

45:55 And he was like The thing about comedians, I think what makes us special is that we're actually more sensitive to everything. And so the best comedian, you know, if I buy a new car and a car c gets um and the car comes home and the dealer is standing right in front of me and I can like point out a f a scratch that no one noticed because I just notice at first and that becomes the comedy and that becomes the bit or if I walk into a house And there's just one little tiny smell. I'm gonna be the first person that says it because I'm the most sensitive. And what the the thing that you're describing with Ben

46:24 Um, I've always noticed this with like good comedians like Shane Gillis does this, he'll read history and he'll retell this very funny bit about George Washington, like this one little thing that I read tons of history, I would've like I would have skipped over that three sentence story. And I think that what separates this I'm all putting this together right now. I think what separates these really insightful people like Ben who asked the right questions is that they're very sensitive and they find one or two lines and they're like that. That is like very interesting to me. That is the truth. That is the right question. And I think Eddie Murphy did the exact same thing when he said he goes We are just more sensitive to everyone and we can do and and so our threshold of like something that grabs us is is lower. It's a great observation. They notice

47:03 What the rest of us ignore. And if you think about great investors, what do they do? They just sort of notice. That this company is not being understood properly. It's misunder it's mispriced. It's misunderstood.

47:15 And Um they go they bet against consensus in a way. And why do they do that? You first have to notice in this pile of Stocks. Which one is the one that's

47:26 Miss Priced. And you know there's just great stories about Buffett and he'd read the Moody's manual front to back. So he's reading just company profile. It's like whatever.

47:36 Two thousand pages or something like that. It's like a Bible and it's just company financials and company um prospectus. And he would read the whole thing. And all he's trying to do is just notice for something that makes him curious. Hm.

47:51 Yeah. has this much earnings but prices only this. I wonder why. Oh, it's because this is believed. Is that true? How does that work? And what if this happens? It's very hard.

48:00 So you see it in investing. You see it in comedy. Comedy is the art of noticing. I have this running doc on my uh On my phone called Seinfeld Premises. It's basically like If you Like what would be the premise of a Seinfeld joke? Seinfeld's a

48:14 The master of observational humor. And so When you turn this part of your brain on, that starts to notice the like hilariousness of human life. You start to notice things that don't make any sense. So for example, Seinfeld talks about the when he talks about this

48:28 Power of observation. He's like uh He goes, You know when somebody's you're on the phone with somebody and the call drops and they call you back and they're like, Hey, sorry, I don't know what happened. He goes. Of course you don't know what happened.

48:39 You don't even know how this is happening. Do does any of us even even know how a phone works? As if we could know the reason the call drops. What a ridiculous thing to say. And then he then he builds off that premise, which is like We all say this thing. And what nonsense. Of course you don't know what happened. You don't know how a microwave works. You don't know how anything works. And then he could build off that and like turn it into a joke.

49:02 And so I started doing this. And so I have this list. Of like Just things that I've noticed over the past three years. And I'm like, I've never done Sam comedy. I always secretly like want to and like you've been talking about it for years. You just gotta pick a date. But like I'll give you like one that's on this list that I just had. So I took a flight.

49:19 And right before the right before boarding. They're like um You know. Uh platinum. America global elites, whatever, right? And they're like any uh military vets or whatever.

49:31 And like a soldier basically walked up and got to board the plane thirty seconds before us. And I was like I looked around and I'm like That's it.

49:41 That was the perk he got? Like this guy fought the war. He still had to go through TSA, like security. He is security. Like we're like this guy should be getting like a blowjob on the plane. Like this is insane that all he got to do was board after Global Elite, but before group one. I was like, What a shame. Like this is Yeah, I know it's not that way about metals. When they give you like a medal, I'm like All that for a metal? The same thing my son got after soccer this year. A metal? So it's just like this art of noticing.

50:14 the the the the sort of things that the is just taking a face value. And I think as an entrepreneur you want to be doing this. As a technologist you wanna be doing this, right? Like a big part of technology Like the big wave right now is AI. And the funny thing about AI is that all the big companies All the companies that were winning an AI and all the people who are leading those companies.

50:33 They were not the OGs. Of AI. Like AI's been around and talked about for fifty years. And the study of um, you know Neural networks and all the underlying technology.

50:46 There were experts. None of the experts are the ones who started this these companies. So like why is that? And it's because they were so far in it, they actually didn't notice that something changed. It's like they were so lost in the sauce that they did not realize like this time it's different.

51:03 Even like the the core thing that changed it all was this transformers paper was written by Google. Google, which had been pouring billions into machine learning. And uh, you know, neural neural networks and all this stuff. Who is the guy, Sam? No, Sam was an outsider to this whole thing. That paper at Google was written by these like seven or eight guys. Seminal paper called called Attention Is All You Need. And attention is all you need was this breakthrough, this realization that like, wait a minute, all you need is this. And then suddenly the outputs change.

51:32 This is written inside of Google, who has spent billions of dollars on this. And Google wasn't the one to use it. They just released this paper, nothing and then it was others out in the field that were like, Huh. That's actually pretty interesting. That's new. That's novel.

51:45 So that means If that's true, then we could try this and maybe we'll get a new result this time. And suddenly. the computer could figure out what's a cat and what's a hot dog. And you know, all these things that were previously kind of hard were now actually like very doable. And so then that's where

52:00 Um, you know, this wave happened and now all eight of those people from Google have since left. And they're a part of the the big like you know, the big A AI companies now. Um but like it's amazing that Google itself Which was looking for the treasure. You know, the metal detector started beeping and they just kept walking down the beach, you know, they just didn't stop and dig.

52:18 And so it take because it takes a beginner's mind to be able to stop and dig, right? Um so and to your to answer your question of like who did notice Um I would say First it was deep mind. So this guy Dennis I don't know how you say his last name, that's a Google company, right?

52:35 So Google ended up buying having to buy that company. So Deep Mind was doing really interesting work. Google buys it for Half a billion dollars or something like that, uh I wanna say. Nothing many years ago. Then Elon notices She's like, Wow.

52:50 What Deep mind can do. is like what they've been talking about with AI for forty years, but nobody's freaking out about this. And Elon's like, I shall freak out about this. So he starts realizing that Google has all Google has a monopoly on AI.

53:05 And he viewed AI as an existential threat. And he viewed Larry Page Which was his friend at the time, as somebody who does not care about AI safety,'cause he would talk to Larry about AI safety and Larry would brush it off. Larry basically viewed it as This is this is the evolution of man. We're gonna go from homo sapiens to this like kind of

53:22 This new species of like AI, AI plus human, whatever. It'll be like a new thing. That's what's gonna happen. And Elon was like this is crazy. And so he decided to help create open AI, which is a counterweight to Google, which had a monopoly on AI talent and research. So he's like, We will get researchers and we will open source the material because Google would never do that. And that will be like a good counterweight to this. So he noticed kind of the the difference there, which is kind of crazy.

53:48 I don't know what we're gonna call this episode, but this is one of the most interesting ones that we've ever had. You had a really good thing in your uh five tweet Tuesday uh email. You had a Jerry Seinfeld quote. You said the context of this quote is that uh Jerry Seinfeld sold uh or s turned down the most amount of money ever in T V history. Apparently he turned down a hundred ten million dollars for one more season of Seinfeld. The reporter asked him why. Why not do one more season? And Jerry says.

54:13 The mm. This is so good. The most important word in art Is proportion. How much?

54:19 How many words? How many minutes? Too much cake. Too much of anything. Changes the whole feeling of it. Getting proportion right is what makes it our

54:27 Or makes it mediocre. So good, right? So good. Oh good. We should end there.

54:33 That's beautiful. That's it. That's just the best. I feel like I can root Well I know. But I want to I'm putting my all in it like my day's off On a road less travel never looking back

54:46 Hey, let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about a podcast that you could check out. It is called The Science of Scaling by Mark Roberts. He was the founding CEO of HubSpot, and he's a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School. The guy's smart. And he sits down every week with Different sales leaders from cool companies like Clavio and Vanta and OpenAI, and he's asking about their strategies, their tactics, and how they're growing their companies as you know, head of sales or chief revenue officer. If you're looking to scale a company up, if you're a CRO or a head of sales, just looking to level up in your career. I think a podcast like this could be great for you. Listen to the science of scaling wherever you get your podcast.

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