#834: David Baszucki, Co-Founder of Roblox — The Path to 150M+ Daily Users, Critical Business Decisions, Ketogenic Therapy for Brain Health, Daily Routines, The Roblox Economy, and More

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/0183027e35ee948b

Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. I'm gonna keep this intro short and sweet. My guest today is David Bazuki. He is the founder and CEO of Roblox. Many of you, especially if you have kids, will know of Roblox. It is gigantic.
Time named Roblox one of the 100 most influential companies, and it has been recognized by Fast Company for innovation on their most innovative companies and most innovative companies in gaming lists. The accolades and so on go on and on.
And on.
Many of you may not realize that Roblox was started in two thousand four, same year as Facebook, and Roblox iterated and iterated and iterated its way to where it is today. It is such an amazing story.
Previously, David founded Knowledge Revolution, where he and his brother Greg created interactive physics, a leader in educational physics and mechanical design simulation software. And a lot of their observations of how kids were using this and what they were excited about led directly into.
The development.
There are a few links.
Roblox R O B L O X dot com. You can find David Bazook at X dot com slash David Bazookie B-A-S-Z-U-C K I YouTube.
David Bazouki, Roblox, and Bazookygroup.com, which we'll talk about. Without further ado, please enjoy a wide-ranging conversation with the one and only
David.
Optimal minimal.
At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I answer your personal question?
Now it is.
cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoscellar.
So
David, so nice to see you. Thank you for taking the time. I'm excited to have this chat with you.
Hey Tim, uh it's great to be on the show. And when we started chatting before I came on, I had read one of your books literally ten or fifteen years ago.
And it got me inspired to do kettlebells and I did some this morning.

And I saw photos of your beautiful kettlebell collection.
Could you just because now I can't
Not take the bait.
How did you jazz up your kettlebells that you ended up sending me a photograph of?
Just to frame it, I'm pretty sure in your book you made your own travel portable kettlebell with some pipes that you could screw together, which I think from a plumbing shop or a hardware store. That's right.
I have five kettlebells and we use them a lot at my gym and have fun.
They're all made of iron. So we took them over to a auto
place where they make low riders and do custom paint jobs of
Sparkle cherry red, sparkle orange, sparkle green. And so they're all these
really beautiful automotive sparkle colors and it just makes them a lot more fun.

Yeah.
And a lot of folks
perhaps who are coming into this podcast will assume that we connected because of the amazing
Business and innovation story of Roblox, but that's not actually how we connected.
because we have a friend in common
Dominic Dagostino.
who some listeners may recognize as effectively Mr
Key tone.
Master of all things exogenous.
ketone related and uh amazing scientist in his own right on a number of different levels.
And I had also had Chris Palmer of Harvard on the show a while back related to something called metabolic psychiatry.
And your name
And
Your
Bazuki group kept coming up over and over again.
And that is
the thread that I pulled on, which ultimately
connected the two of us and I think I had mentioned your name. I'd sort of invoked your name several times on the show, including on the random show.
And that's how he got connected. So maybe as a way of just setting the table.
for a little bit of the metabolic health discussion and everybody listening, we will get to Roblox and all of that, of course.
But this I think is something that will
Probably
strike a chord with a lot of people listening.
On a lot of
Dimensions.
So as a way of setting the table, perhaps you could describe early in your son's freshman year at college, what happened.
Yeah, thanks, Tim. And I'm gonna share that my son and my family
are comfortable sharing this story and so I I feel I have some flexibility
But you could imagine as a parent of a high school student who had just started
At U C Berkeley
All of the hopes and dreams of a parent of a new student going off to school.
Yeah, student has been very successful in
math and science and academics and athletics and how much hope a parent has for that student.
Going off to school.
And like any other student, my son Matthew had his freshman year at Berkeley
It brought back memories of when I had started school, he hit it pretty hard. He was
in computer science he was rushing a fraternity
And there's a lot of demands I could see from afar, it just seemed on him.
you know, the studies, the creativity, what a rush would be at a college like Berkeley and all of that.
And that was a time
when he entered what I would call his first
Manic episode. We got some cryptic texts from him.
That were very alarming. We got some text from
Some of his friends and his
Fraternity and dorm.
I went to get him
And
He had entered what you would call a manic episode, and for us a manic episode is something
That
No parent has ever seen before.
And it is really something very surprising and weird and different and
He had entered this and and what he had started on was really an eight
Or a nine year
Journey
with us over eight or nine years that
Involved some of the wildest stuff.
You could ever
Imagine it it involved him going to the hospital several times
It involved us not
quite knowing.
how to really care for him.
It involved try to navigate the medical
system it involved
going to Stanford and having him being locked up
You know, on the psych word
And really started this journey that if we round it out was only solved through ultimately getting him on a ketogenic
Diet.
Coincidentally
We ran into
Another CEO founder
Oh
Said they
got progress on their bipolar with a metabolic
diet and a ketogenic
Diet.
And that seemed like the craest thing I had ever heard about. Like, how is it possible after
you know, eight years and hospitalizations and very difficult times and complete disruption and I would say
possibly concerned would our son ever go back to school, would he ever work? Would he
Ever integrate
We worked with
Doctor Palmer and others and
He tried a ketogenic diet.
And literally within three weeks or four weeks we saw progress.
That we had never seen
With any drug or medication
Yeah, mind blown.
Really.
And a miracle and that
was really the
catalyst of starting our whole adventure.
Down the ketogenic rate.
And if we flash forward then a bit to December of twenty seventeen, why was December so significant?
We were now
Into uh
Bit of a situation.
Where
Our son had
Run away.
And
flushed all his meds, literally streaming on social media, uh streaming as he had run away.
had subsequently caught a bus
Had made his way down to San Diego.
Had lived in
Think uh lifeguard shack in San Diego.
We had some monitoring of him.
I knew he was full blown manic.
At that time
I tried my first try to come down and pluck him off the street with the help of some police and get him into a hospital.
And
Given the laws of our situation, I I got to San Diego near some of our relatives, called in the cops.
But
He was pretty convincing. He said, Hey, I'm free. I don't want to go to the hospital.
I knew he was completely out of his mind.
And he ran away.
The police wouldn't grab him. He just went running away from his dad.
That was pretty scary.
Following that
We got a report.
That he had then hitchhiked to
Los Angeles from San Diego.
He had a phone and a laptop and that was it.
And the communication started getting
More spars.
With him.
In retrospect.
It's really scary'cause I think in retrospect what I know now
I would have flown down there and hired two hundred people
Rented a hotel room.
And started searching all of Los Angeles like just
go to every Starbucks in Los Angeles. Let's find this guy.
In the moment though, I would say for one or two days
We didn't quite figure out what to do, except we have a a son who's gone AWAL
Ін Лос Анджелес
This was a terrifying thing, a a powerless kind of thing. Here we were, family with all of the resources in the world.
And then by some miracle
He text me.
From a Starbucks once again full blown manic episode.
And I was just able to work with him and just say
Hey man, it'd be fun to
Buy us a latte together. You wanna just chill out there for a couple of hours? I'll come down, we'll buy a latte, it'll be fun.
He said.
Surprisingly he said, Sure, I'll just chill out here.
I'm like oh shit, he's gonna chill out there.
So
Flight rental car like SWAT team stuff.
I'm on the airplane. I'm sitting next to
You know, someone and they say, Hey, why are you going to LA? I said
Oh, my son is AWAL with bipolar. I think I have like an hour to get to him and to pick him up.
And pop into the rental car just drive flying over there.
I get to this Starbucks.
And there is my son
Just
A street person of your son.
Nothing except a plastic safe way bag.
With his laptop.
And a cellphone and a charger that he's sleeping in a Starbucks with.
And
I'm just like
Oh my gosh.
So now I'm thinking
Okay, I can't call the cops because I've been through this before. I cannot lose this guy.
So my son and I got into this
I'm saying hey.
We should go see your relatives in San Diego. That'd be fun.
So he's like, Yeah, that's a good idea. Let's go see the relatives.
He's like, You don't mind if I get some smokes, man, do you?
I said no man, we need some smokes. Let's get some smokes. So we
We buy like Sigs, you know, we buy diet cokes, we get in the rental car, he's just smoking completely manic.
And we're going to see a relative.
And so now I'm driving to San Diego.
Texting
Like thirty people at the same time texting my white texting his
Uncle is a psychiatrist in Carlsbad.
And during this
Sixty minute drive.
I've got his uncle lined up as a hot stop. So
Yo, we should go see Uncle Alex.
Oh, that's a great idea. Let's go see Uncle Alex.
So I'm able to get Uncle Alex warmed up and so we come in hot to Uncle Alex, who's a psychiatrist.
Oh yeah, let's just grab a dinner with Uncle Al Good. So we're rolling
So then we're hanging out and then we gotta figure out how do we get my son into a hospital without the cops coming and having him run away. Cause if he runs away
What are we gonna do? So
He had had a lot of adventures on the street.
And his hands were really beat up.
I don't know if he was punching a concrete wall or what he was doing, but
His hands were really beat up.
So Uncle Alex is pretty savvy says
Matt, man.
We should go out.
Get a good steak dinner. What do you think?
And Matt.
Thank goodness that oh yeah, I'm really hungry. Let's get a big steak dinner.
And then I look at his hands, I say, Hey Matt, man, your hands are pretty beat up.
We should just stop and get those checked out on the way to the steak dinner. What do you just we'll pull into the hospital, check out your hands and
Matt's like, cool, let's go do it.
So
Oh my gosh, we get
We're texting, we got the hospital lined up and we pull in and just
go into the hospital, they know we're coming.
Go into this waiting room.
We've got like thirty minutes.
To keep
Mat together in this waiting room.
So he doesn't run away. So
Let's go s have a smoke outside. Let's do all of this stuff.
We then
Finally what after what seems like a lifetime, the doctor comes in, Yeah, we're ready.
The doctors pre-flighted, just like, oh yeah, let me see your hands.
And this doctor, I forget their name, but
She was a genius.
She's just like
You know, Matt.
Just seems like maybe you want to take a rest for a day or two.
Just get off the street.
And wow.
That was huge.
Yeah.
And he could have ran out of next.
And he was open to it.
I think that started the journey.
Of some uh what is called insight.
Some level of insight.
Where a bipolar
person has a a small inkling
that things are not quite right and they wanna participate in treatment.
And this thing called insight is this very valuable thing.
That
When someone does not have a sliver of it
They will run, they will sleep outside, they will
They will not
Participate in the journey.
That's what led to ultimately
Yeah, many
drugs, many interventions, and finally us finding ketogenic therapy.
Thank you for the context.

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I actually read something that your wife
Wrote or shared on metabolicmind dot org.
And
Did not know
This
particular sort of episode, this chapter
And it struck me
for a couple of different reasons, and I won't read it all, but if you'd indulge me for a second, yeah, I mean I'll just read a little portion of this, which
compliments what you already described, but
This is from uh
Your wife at four AM the Friday before Christmas, I lay curled up and crying on my bedroom floor, convinced my son was no longer alive. And I went through the history of the manic episodes leading to hospitalization, two further hospitalization, ten different medications.
Then not having left home, caught off contact, wandering the streets, eventually taking a bus from the Bay Area to Southern California, which you described.
From his increasingly alarming Snapchat and his Instagram post we knew he had no money and that he'd slept one night behind a dumpster and another in a lifeguard tower as Don
Broke that Friday morning, his social media channels had gone silent, and his three sisters hadn't heard from him in eighteen hours.
And this makes me quite emotional as well,'cause I've had
Two or three friends.
Basically follow this exact same pattern with bipolar.
And
I can only imagine the effect that would have.
on a family and for people who also hear you mention
Metabolic.
psychiatry or
ketogenic therapy or diet.
And it might sound like some type of of hand wavy panacea.
Because they don't understand perhaps some of the plausible mechanisms. What is actually happening? Like why did
this intervention help your son when so many other things had failed.
Or at least what is your best understanding of that?
Yeah, so I I wanna take a step back.
Your audience may be familiar with what a ketogenic
Diet is but in the
Big picture.
Almost all of us
Live our lives day to day.
Burning glucose and we have monitors
Too much.
Glucose can lead to insulin resistance and diabetes.
And society I think is just learning about
Glucose.
And how it brings energy to the body
Now interestingly enough
The body
has a second way of generating energy
Called ketones.
Most people never touch their ketones. It's a more primitive
way of generating energy
It's a way of generating energy that we all go into if we don't eat for a day or two.
Because there's no more glucose.
We go into ketosis.
But it's also a a way of generating energy that
You know
people who live far up in the north and eat seal blubber all day long.
aren't getting any glucose. They're not getting any carbs. And so they eat that seal blubber and they go into this thing called
Ketoes is
And you know, it's arguably something that is closer
to the way we lived as primitive people.
than the way we live today. We arguably live today with more carbohydrates in our diet.
Because about ten thousand years ago.
We had this thing called the agricultural revolution. The agricultural revolution
In this amazing thing.
humans figure it out. They can generate a lot of food.
That would support a lot of people.
It was an amazing invention.
But it was more carbs than what the traditional
Diet has so
Being in ketos is
comes from fasting.
Or eating very low carbs and more fat.
than we would be used to
What happens when someone is in ketosis is you run on ketones, this alternate energy pathway.
And you get very consistent energy and very clear energy
Especially to your brain.
The thesis would be I guess my thesis would be
There are a lot of people around
Arguably, interestingly enough, with bipolar.
People who have pretty big brains. Like people who are
Trying to process a lot.
And
If they're not getting consistent energy to their brain, which could happen from glucose spike, glucose crash, glucose spike, glucose crash.
Uh, one might argue that what people see in bipolar
is actually just a little bit of a symptom of not having enough brain energy into their brain. So
What we did with Matt and people have been exploring with keto diets for a long time for epilepsy
Also
You know, I like to think when those aboriginal people would run three hundred miles in
America a thousand years ago with a bag of pemmican
That was pretty keto food. That was high fat, low carb food.
And allows people to to go pretty far without crashing.
We put Matt on a keto diet and we worked with a dietitian and Dr. Palmer.
And this is a diet, you know, less than twenty grams of carbs.
Per day.
Which is almost unfathomable for modern people, right?'Cause like a quarter of a Coke
Probably has twenty grams of carbs.
And also a diet.
That probably had more fat
Then protein.
Which is also something that we're not used to because I think
the last fifty to a hundred years we've migrated to less fats in our diet.
As well, somewhat.
So we migrated Matt to what is called a ketogenic diet.
And after twenty plus meds and treatments and all of it.
We started and he started to see results from this this diet, which was an absolute miracle.
How do you make it as easy possible to follow a ketogenic diet? And I say that as someone who's spent probably upwards of a year
in nutritional ketosis and I always see the benefits.
But
I typically come off of it at some point because I find it difficult for compliance, depending on travel and various things.
But
Still, like for instance.
over the next month I'll probably spend two to three weeks in
Nutritional ketosis, and there are a lot of reasons to do that. People should also listen to Dominic Dagostino or Chris Palmer, but it activates.
anti cancer pathways directly.
quite aside from the anti-inflammatory effects and just the ability to starve certain types of cancerous cells of glucose.
There are there's so many upstream benefits you kind of
develop this mitochondrial and metabolic machinery that has some durability if you're in ketosis even for say four to six weeks, something like that. How do you make it as easy as possible?
It's hard, right?
And another Matt story that we sharply is as we
Learned about
ketosis and how you monitor your diet. And at this point Matt had been
Eating primarily food that had been measured.
You know, made by a cook.
we know all of the ingredients so we can measure the carbs, the fat and the protein.
And we went on a trip to Mexico as a family for a week.
And we thought
We had it right.
In the restaurant.
But where we were wrong.
Is
possibly me somewhere in the family.
We forgot that avocados, even though they have a lot of fat in them, carry some
carbs more than we expected.
And so we were a couple of days into the Mexico trip, everything was cool.
Matt was eating fish, olive oil, butter, and some avocados.
Those avocados had more carbs than we expected and nudged him out of this
For him very strict keytone zone, I think.
He arguably, you know, is good at a ketone level of two or two five. We weren't measuring
at the time we didn't have a ketone measuring device.
And we can talk about that.
And so
All of a sudden, here we are, day three or day four, and math's starting to get
Semanic symptoms, um more trouble sleeping, which is an early warning sign.
A little more agitation.
And things are starting to get a bit edgy and
We didn't know what's going on and then we identified
Oh my gosh.
We're a little off on the diet.
The next two days Matt went to just
Literally small amounts of fish.
And butter like
Asking the chef, get more butter, more butter for my fish and more olive oil.
And he popped right back in.
I just saw the correlation and how tight it was. So
You're exactly right.
It's very hard, especially if we're going to restaurants or things like that.
I am not
As strict as Matt. I feel my life doesn't quite depend on it, but I I am a also a huge advocate of
Some of the things you mentioned.
Sharpness of focus.
Just body weight control, consistency.
energy in the afternoon.
All of these good things that come from it.
So you know, when I go into a restaurant
First thing that comes out in a restaurant is the big thing of bread.
You have to push that aside.
Like just
Get that out of my face.
You have to know how to order
Specifically
Yeah, I'll take the burger without a bun and some extra mayo.
And maybe some extra butter and eat the burger with the mayo and the butter and maybe the lettuce and the tomato and all of that. But the bun and the fries
are not fully keto aligned as well.
Matt is even more strict. He's
I'm pretty keto to the point of carnivore as well, which is very heavily animal type products.
So I'd say it does take some practice.
But I think once you get used to it and you can figure out how to maneuver in a restaurant, I think you're in pretty good shape.
The hardest thing for me
Would be say we were to go to a wedding or something.
And you're not fully the menu and you've got all these
friends around you and it's you know, all of this special food.
Sometime in that case it's kind of hard to do that unless you just don't eat anything. And sometimes you have to figure that out.
And
I'll I'll just speak personally for people who might be curious. I mean, what I've ultimately found easiest
And Dominic uh Dom has some good
recommendations related to this'cause he spent a hell of a lot of time in nutritional ketosis, but basically two huge salads a day, intermittent fasting. So I just have two meals.
Somewhere between two PM and eight PM, I have two huge salads, lots of olive oil with like a sliced ribeye on top of it.
And
It does the trick.
You have to be a little careful, like you mentioned, in terms of protein fat ratios. If you consume a ton of protein at one sitting, you can knock yourself out because the liver through gluconeogenesis converts all those lovely amino acids or some of them.
Right back into glucose. That my son knows that and I figure that out as well. Like protein is not a complete free lunch. You will pick up that glucose
Yeah, totally.
Where have you landed in terms of measuring
ketone levels. So for people who are wondering, you know, I've used the Precision Extra device, but then you end up having to do a million finger pricks, which is fine. Eventually you start to feel
the level. Like I'm sure Matt at this point can tell when he's at
two millimolars or two point five millimolars, which is pretty high.
for people who are wondering, it's actually uh pretty challenging for me to get there.
Unless I'm fasting.
So he must be very tight on the controls to get to two to two point five. But once I hit, like I know what it feels like on a precision extra for me to get to one point.
to one point three millimolars in terms of mental sharpness, like I can feel the
Click over.
to that mode. What do you use for measurement now?
Or what would you recommend people use?
Yeah, and we should come back to knowing
What it feels like.
Because I do feel and this might sound a little wacky.
I can either do an optimism simulation
Or
A very minor, obviously, with all due respect to people who are clinically depressed, a minor depression simulator.
By
how far I go into ketosis or how far I glucose crash. I feel I can set both of those moods a little with my diet.
Once again, not obviously the level of depression of people who truly suffer it, but
But touch on the edges of that.
I like you initially tried some of the finger prick stuff.
And what's interesting with fingerprint stuff is
No best practice would be
Twice a day. Check your ketones kind of stuff.
Many of your audience, they've probably tried CGM, which are continuous glucose monitors now.
Which are a compliment to ketosis and those are things where you just slap it on the back of your arm, hook it up to your mobile phone, and you get a graph of your glucose level.
for two weeks that you can look at
That's a gentle
early sign of ketosis if your glucose is just not spiking, but it's not the full picture.
What has started coming out now and surprisingly not available in the United States are continuous ketone monitors, CKMs.
They're available for sale in Canada.
They'll probably be approved in the next year in the US.
And I gotta be honest, I'm in a smuggling ring.
Bringing CK.
Mm.
Fell off the back of a truck. Into the United States.

Might need to join that WhatsApp group. Yeah, I'll I'll send you a CKM.
Um
And just like a CGM, you can watch your keytones.
twenty four seven throughout the day.
And then really see where they're at.
They're very close to probably what you would assume, right? You're probably
One one five, Matt's two two five.
I also find it hard to really
pop up over in that one to one five zone. I've got to really push it.
To get there.
But there's definitely a feeling. There is a feeling
For me the feeling is one of
Not irrational.
Optimism.
But a little bit of a calm.
Optimism
That we can do this.
And things are gonna be okay. And I'm I'm excited about
Challenge
That I would say when I'm
Glucose crashing.
May seem completely
Untenable.
And
Challenges that seem completely untenable. This is impossible to solve.
In a moderate level of ketose?
Hey man, it's chill.
You've got food, you've got shelter, you're not gonna die, you can solve this thing. Like, let's go do it. It's gonna be exciting to solve this challenge. And
I can feel that feeling.
I'll just mention a couple of other

a lot of ketosis since nineteen ninety eight or so. That's when I first started. I was actually doing a weird
For some people weird.
approach to it, a variant called the cyclical ketogenic diet. Because I was training in athletics. So I would do about eighteen hours of after a glycogen depletion workout of carbohydrate loading. So that you could
Take advantage of insulin and so on for packing on a little muscle.
while you're doing the ketogenic diet, but the
Point of that is a few things that I've seen repeatedly, and it's N of one, but you do see some of this reported in the literature as well. Number one.
I need less sleep.
I actually
On average I would say spent
two to three hours less time in bed and I wake up feeling fully
refreshed. I wake up and I am awake versus waking up and needing 60 minutes to get up to speed.
That is a a clear benefit, a weird one that people shouldn't screw around with too much, but my breath hold times double.
At least.
Can I ask
This scares the crap out of me. What's your breath old time?
Oh, my breath hold time, if I did it right now, my breath hold time would probably be forty-five seconds. I have a really compromised left lung from being born prematurely. I have something analogous to emphysema in my left lung.
But I'll give you two examples of breath holds. So one was after doing like ten
And these are not
breathing exercises that put me at risk of a shallow water blackout, but
Breathing exercises for like ten to fifteen breaths along the lines of Wim Hof.
And then doing a breath hold on the exhale when at about three millimolars.
In terms of ketone or you know, PHP concentration. That was like two minutes fifty seconds.
So I went from basically forty five seconds to two minutes fifty.
And had a friend right next to me who's a witness to this, and I've done it many times since I don't think extended breath holds are great for your brain. I did another experiment when I was on day nine of a 10 day water fast, and I was probably around, I want to say four to five millimolars. I was really deep. And there's a point at which
you could argue the really high concentrations are perhaps not great for you.
But
I was on day nine of
A ten day water fast.
And I did a hard shell hyperbaric oxygen treatment.
where you can get up to like two point four atmospheres, two point five atmospheres of pressure.
And I was doing that for other reasons, but I thought to myself, Well, let's see what we could do in this type of environment. So I did a bunch of, let's just call it Wim Hof breathing.
Breath hold on and exhale.
And I stopped at nine minutes because I was just terrified myself. I thought I was gonna cause an aneurysm or something. Felt totally fine. So headache metosis.
Arguably a little lower metabolic rate if you've just gone nine or ten days without food, you're probably a little skinnier, like less
Stuff.
And then you're saying in that hyperbaric chamber you
pushed two or two and a half times as much.
Oxygen.
Into your body.
Dang.
Yeah.
Nine minutes and that was without feeling any impulse to breathe. I stopped because I was like, You know what, I've never gone anywhere close to this long without breathing and

I'm not getting paid for this. So let me just stop and call nine minutes a good breath hold.
Can I ask what you think your average sleep is per night?
Oh, my sleep is terrible. It's really
fractured sleep for my entire life has been a problem. So I would say that generally I'm spending probably
Nine hours.
In bad.
I have a latency, so the onset to sleep I would say and I wear an aura ring, so I am able to track some of this. You could debate maybe the accuracy of the algorithms and so on, but
Around like yeah, there you go. So showing me an orange. I would say forty seven minutes to an hour plus for me to get to sleep.
That would be an average night. It could be much longer.
I probably wake up two to three times per night.

And
Overall, if you look at my sleep score, like the absolute maximum would be around ninety.
It's much more frequently. This is on the kind of aura.
rating scale, but it would ninety would be an absolutely
best night of sleep for me, it is more typically in like the sixty to seventy range. So sleep is a real problem.
more than almost anything else. I mean, there are a few things that contribute to dramatically improved sleep quality. One is
Zero caffeine, not a little caffeine.
zero caffeine, even at very small quantities, I find that my sleep is interrupted. That is a pretty tough pill to swallow or not swallow for me, to be frank.
But in addition to exercise and all the levers you would expect, sun exposure, a huge one for me.
For improving sleep quality if I get
At least forty five minutes of sun exposure.
But
Ketosis.
Just does a lot of heavy lifting.
On the sleep.

It's not possible for me to isolate variables here, but I have clinically diagnosed OCD and a lot of ruminative looping.
When I am in ketosis, the volume on that goes from a ten to a two.
Although I haven't tracked it with an aura ring, I would suspect my sleep latency.
is dramatically improved, right? I'm falling asleep a lot faster because my brain isn't
Basically saying, Oh, finally, I've been waiting all day to tell you so much. It's not that kind of situation quite as much.
And then there's a lot of other things going on. And I would say to folks
Not to devalue therapy because I have therapists
Gage with therapy, but if you have some of these fundamental
physiological issues, let's just say with fuel utilization.
Talk therapy in and of itself is probably not gonna fix those things.
And whether that's looking at, for instance
I have
three relatives with Alzheimer's disease right now, and I've done some experiments
with providing them with exogenous ketones, so supplemental liquid ketones in this case.
that they can drink and if I give them
twenty five to thirty milliliters of
BHB bonded to one three butane diol. There are some real concerns around one three butane dial, just to make it clear. I think there could be some real liver toxicity from extended use, but putting that aside for the moment.
Give this to a relative with Alzheimer's and within twenty to thirty minutes.
Longer sentences.
Verbal acuity.
noticeably, very noticeably improved. They're telling stories instead of giving one word answers.
It's
Incredibly noticeable.
For instance, I slept like
dog shit last night, not to get too technical, but I just had a ketone salt mix prior to this conversation. And it's like I can feel it now. I can tell when the light switches come on.
And there's a reason Alzheimer's is sometimes referred to as type three diabetes.
And furthermore.
I don't wanna dox this scientist, you might know who I'm talking to, but I don't think he's been public about this.
There might be some explanatory power in
various types of infections as catalysts for certain types of what we would term psychiatric disorders.
And if your glucose metabolism is compromised in some way.
And people listening, we're not gonna talk about ketosis the whole time, but honestly, if this is the only thing you take from this conversation, I think for a lot of you it will be well worth it.
I've had Lyme disease twice.
And there's a bunch of
ridiculous woo woo.
Nonsense around Lyme disease and quite a few infectious diseases.
Not everyone has Lyme disease. You might just be depressed. There's a lot of overlap with symptoms for various syndromes. But
Growing up on Long Island, I had
too absolutely verified.
cases of Lyme disease and other coinfections.
Then you take a bunch of antibiotics and you do kill that infection, despite what people might say.
Nondetheless you might experience what people call long Lyme disease, like long COVID.
And
In retrospect, I realized that a lot of my longer duration symptoms I think were probably
Neuroinflammation, probably microglia, but
Who knows? There could be other aspects to it.
What
Solved my symptoms.
That came after Lyme disease.
was three weeks of strict ketosis.
Very strict ketosis. I formed a bunch of kind of pet theories as to or hypotheses as to why that might be the case, because this was 10 years ago.
But only recently
Let me back up.
Had
at least four maybe five friends or their wives who had
Actual proper documented.
Hundred percent success rate.
of getting rid of their cognitive symptoms and joint pain with strict ketosis. I'm not saying it's a cure all
But
It's four for four or five for five at this point.
That's amazing.
Yeah. Long winded way of saying.
It's such an accessible intervention.
Obviously do it with doctor supervision and neither you or I play a doctor on the internet.
But man.
It's right there.
It's right there in front of you and accessible.
I feel the same thing about sleep.
And I feel ten years ago
I used to fear insomnia because that could mean a bad day.
But I've never correlated this.
Ketosis. But I now know
I can have three nights of what might be considered bad sleep.
But I'm not as afraid of it.
And now
If I wake up at two AM, I just listen to some interesting
thing I want to listen to a book or a podcast or something, and I fall back to sleep and I actually feel it's just like a free learning period rather than
something to be afraid of. And I I no longer have those days maybe 10 or 15 years ago where I'd just wake up and just go,
It's gonna be a terrible day. I'm exhausted.
And then on the talk therapy thing.
The way I sometimes think about this is
It's kind of
Interesting that we first go to talk therapy rather than what I would call mechanical therapy.
Like
Mechanical therapy is what's up with the machinery in your brain. Your brain is a machine.
And talk therapy with all due respect in many cases very, very valuable
But in many cases
If the machinery is not
functioning, not getting enough energy has a core at the molecular level thing going on.
Talk therapy's not gonna do anything. So
I think the physiological, mechanical should always be the first place to go.
And in many cases, you know, boom, that
Can take care of quite a bit.
Yeah, absolutely. And I would actually go further because there have been many periods in my life where I've
I don't want to say ignored, but for periods of time developed a blind spot related to the mechanical therapy, examining the engine and oil levels and so on, instead of just trying to improve my driving technique.
And
I would go further and say that and keeping in mind, people, please, like I do talk therapy regularly, so I'm not knocking it.
I view it as necessary but not sufficient.
It can actually
put you into a precarious position because if you're doing a lot of talk therapy, but making no progress, you can develop almost a learned helplessness.
And the self flagellating worse, where you're like, Well, wait a second, I'm working with this great therapist, they're giving me all the tools.
Why am I a such a fucking failure? I thought I was so smart. Why can't I figure this out? And you can end up in this very
Dangerous in some cases.
situation where you feel like you cannot fix things because you're unable to use the talk therapy to fix whatever the underlying issue is.
Whereas in reality.
it could be a purely physiological issue, or you at least need that base level of physiological support before you can begin.
To do.
some of the higher level functioning and reorienting.
Let's shift gears.
You mentioned listening. This is gonna sound like it's out of left field, but it's sitting right in front of me, so I might as well ask. This is actually from LifeHacker back in the day.
Lifehacker.com and I want you to tell me if this is still true. I tend to work while this is quoting you, whenever I'm listening to pure ambient noise like those you'd find on the atmospheric calm playlist on Spotify. It's my go to playlist if I need a quick boost in creativity or productivity. Do you still have any
Playlist that you listen to of that type.
I still listen to Atmospheric Calm on Spotify.
I am unable to function.
With anything other than ambient noise.
In the background.
No lyrics, no words, no people saying stuff.
For me
If I want some chill music, it's gotta be
Spa music, ambient music. Like I can't get distracted by that.
All right, I'm gonna try that playlist because you and I are the same in that way.
If there are lyrics, forget about it. It's just generally not gonna work for me.

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I
Let's talk about
Roblox. So
There are
A million different entry points here. The most obvious one would be to say, David, tell me the Genesis story of Roblox. And I do want to hear the Genesis story, but I might want to start
I wanna start with one that's
Also sitting right in front of me.
And maybe we could just start with this. This is under the heading of the future. Why don't you give people like
an overview of what Roblox is for those people who have no
Idea whatsoever.
And then the future
I have here procedurally generated real time worlds, aka dreaming in real time. It's just
Too attractive for me not to leap into. So what is role blocks?
And you could give some stats and figures if that helps.
give people an idea of the scale and scope of this.
And then could you elaborate on the future?
As I teed it up.
The out of the box big picture thing here.
Is humans are just compelled.
To try to figure out ways to connect
And communicate.
And
We didn't used to have language.
And then we figured out language and we could sit around the campfire and communicate
And tell stories.
And then we
Try to communicate at a distance and
We had smoke signals or semaphores.
Then we figure out writing and the mail system and we had the Pony Express and all of that.
We still wanted to communicate more at a distance, and then we had the telegraph system.
Then we have the telephone system and
We use that a lot. And then we have text.
And then
In the midst of Covid
All of a sudden video what we're doing right now.
Got to be
More
And it's just this core human thing of wanting to connect with people, both real time and whatever.
Technically we're not quite done.
There's gonna be more and it's not necessarily dystopian. It could arguably very positive.
Whether it's the hollow deck we've seen on Star Trek or some of those things.
Where maybe instead of a video call I'm hanging out with my dad and
Yeah, we're walking around ancient Rome together, even though he's in Carmel and I'm here. Or maybe he feels like he's right in my office together.
And so behind all of Roblox
is what I feel is this
unstoppable wave of technology
That is gonna happen.
And we have
graciously landed in this opportunity to usher it in
Initially coming from what seems like a gaming platform, like people playing together.
But arguably a platform that if it's done well and if it's done safely and with civility and with scale
can be a very important not just play, but working platform, communication platform.
Lonely kid.
With cancer in the hospital connection platform.
Lonely kid who's having a hard time finding their people and finding them digitally platform.
And maybe even a way to experience
music or political rallies even. So
The good news is, you know, it's good to be in a company with just like a big

Behind it.
The way Roblox presents today.
You can think of it as a three D gaming
play platform with about a hundred and twenty million people on it every day.
Where all of the games
All of the creations
are made by people on the platform, whether it's a twelve year old hobbyist, whether it's a team of fifty people,
making ten million dollars a year
Where it's everything in between
And where through these user created
Experiences
A about three percent of all the gaming in the world is now starting to happen on Roblox.
Gaming is a pretty big market.
What's really beautiful about it
Is
we see emergent games like you would expect with user generated things where maybe we have a traditional view of what games are.
But on Roblox, uh you know, a top game is dressed to impress, like a fashion game where you pick clothes out for five minutes.
And you compete in a fashion show
Or what was recently hot, grow a garden where your garden is always growing in the background and you're tuning it and you're
Trying to make it better.
So it's it's really a a fascinating, interesting journey.
It I think it started with a combination of great people
And
Just a big vision.
It's an enormous responsibility because
There's probably nine billion hours
of people on our platform every month. And at peak time there's over forty million.
People
And
from day one, we've built this as a platform for all ages. So
We have nine year olds on the platform.
All of their communication is filtered. They're not able to share images.
But they are able to go play hide and go see.
And we put enormous effort on safety and civility.
with all these things and and we actually, I think, have done something very lucky
is unlike almost every other social platform, you name it, it's thirteen and up.
We've accepted that we have young people on the platform from day one and and really built infrastructure around that rather than
Denying that. So
It's a really fun company to run.
It's in a really big interesting market. I think
We're gonna see people doing virtual three D work on the platform.
What do you mean by three D work? What would be an example of that?
I just think as over time Roblox gets more and more photorealistic and more real time.
Yeah, rather than having a video call
What's interesting about a video call with twenty people
is we see twenty windows
And only one or two people can talk at the same time'cause it gets all confusing.
Been in a three D Roblox world.
We're all in the same space and we kinda hear us all at the same time, just like the real world. So I think over time
Some types of video calls will get replaced with three D calls.
We'll see music concerts.
If you're not live, you'll be there in a three D holodeck type version with your friends dancing and
Seeing everything.
Around you.
And I do think we'll ultimately see political rallies where
In addition to the stadium of a hundred thousand people
Within the the rules and the laws of the state where that political rally may be occurring
We may see both a video version, a physical version, and a three D version where you can be there with your friends and
kind of go to that. So I really do think we're at the start of kind of just
Used the phone and now video is pretty big.
And some day three D is gonna be pretty big too.
Yeah. I can't remember
Alan Key? I might be getting the attribution wrong.
Okay.
Alan Kay, the best way to predict the future is to create it.
Yeah.
Yeah, the future in many ways
We sometimes don't have the hubris
to feel
Many things are
Inevitable.
And so
One other way to predict the future I think is
Many things are just inevitable. There are enough smart people around.
That the wheel
was inevitable. And one
could take credit, like I invented the wheel.
But
That wheel was probably gonna get invented by thousands of different people anyways.
I think we have a little bit of the same vision at Roblox. Like we are working on something that is inevitable. We are participating and building it.
But I don't think we would lay claim to being the
Inventors of it.
Although you know, I'm fascinated by the Incan Empire. It seems like they never landed on the wheel idea.
It's like what they were able to accomplish without the wheels totally bananas. But that's uh
Go figure. But then again, if they would have survived, they might have come across
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. Maybe they were just ran out of runway. So let me ask you, since a lot of entrepreneurs are listening to this.
And
Yeah.
I'm sure even if they have not played Roblox, they have
herd of roadblocks and the numbers you're providing
Alright.
mind boggling numbers, right, in terms of the breadth and size.

You mentioned the creator community.
And I've got
Some numbers in front of me, like Roblox creators earned.
more than one billion dollars in the past year, and this
In a sense, like open development community seems to be key to growth.
How early on did you figure that out? Did you try to do things internally for a while?
And then prototype it and then pour gasoline on it.
Or was that just from the very first
nascent stages of this product of the company.
Part of the plan.
I I believe one has to always be innovating.
in a company like this and
Part of building a company like Roblox is
Those innovations have to be happening
Year after year.
One almost needs a system
For innovation.
Along the way with this
economic system called the developer system. Roblox was always what is called a user generated content platform, which means
Creators are making stuff, people are learning stem, people are getting excited like
Even the ego burst of having three friends play a game can really motivate
a young person to get into computer science
So initially you could say Roblox ran on the excitement
of having friends see what you're working on.
We initially had a much more primitive economic system a club membership.
thing like some much older virtual worlds from young people.
We had one of these moments that
We've had so many in the company.
Where
One number's going great.
And one number's not going so great. And at this point
We had one number going great, which is user growth and hours growth.
But we had this other number going not great, which is revenue.
Could you explain what the membership what that looked like at the time?
The early membership model was
If you subscribe for five dollars a month.
You get some cool stuff.
You get
Like some skins for your your website.
You get more places to build stuff, so you could build more
But that was actually a very dangerous revenue model because
There should never be any impediment to building and creating. Like that should just be unlimited and free. So
We had arguably a primitive revenue model.
We weren't making building free and it w it was like selling a little extra
cool thing like extra chrome on your car or something. And that was getting stale and tired and
What we learned in that
is sometimes your intuitive big picture very difficult thing.
Is the right solution.
But we did what many other entrepreneurs would do, which is like
Oh my gosh, we've got a revenue problem. We need to forensically diagnose this.
Let's look at the fifty things. What did we change? What did we break?
Oh, we can't find anything we broke. Okay, let's spend three more months
Making a list of all the small little tweaks we can do to improve revenue.
Oh, let's stack rank them.
Okay, there's fifty things.
Okay, let's do the top ten of those.
Oh my gosh, those aren't working.
And then
In the back of our heads.
We had been saying there's one thing that's really difficult.
Which is we need a digital economy virtual currency.
We need players to be able to buy robux.
We need them to be able to go into any game and use their robux
We need the creators
to sell things for robux.
Whatever they could think of.
We have to trust that these creators in in a pizza delivery game, they're gonna sell a scooter for anyone who wants to deliver pizzas faster. We're gonna have to trust uh
In Bird Simulator.
They're gonna sell the ability to turn into an eagle fat.
Then if you just play and so
So all of a sudden, okay, let's go do the big strategic thing. This is gonna take a while. Let's just go, go, go, go.
Were there any sources of inspiration?
Who led you to consider
The digital economy robux route. Were there any antecedents?
Or influences.
You could say
Adam Smith.
Like
The way the our economy works. People
have some currency, they buy things
when artists or creators make stuff, people decide what they want to buy. People are very creative in making that.
We're literally inspired by the real world.
Economy.
And so we said we have to have kind of a microcosm of the real world economy.
What was exciting is
Even though we knew this was gonna take two or three months to build.
The second we committed like
Forget all these fixes, forget all of these little things.
We're going all in at what we think is the big strategic fix to this problem.
It was very relaxing and fun.
I can see you getting visibly excited. I'm just wondering with such a
Seemingly dramatic move.
Number one.
Am I over
Dramatizing
The
Risks involved in doing it.
Is it more like hey
It seems big and it is big, but it's actually not that risky. Number one. Number two
Is
How did you
Decide internally.

Hit go on that decision.
You know, I think we were smaller. We had twenty people. We had spent three months trying to find what we broke.
We've spent three months
Trying the top ten of the fifty stack rank things.
And we're like, Okay.
But
I think we had
hope and conviction that if we built this right
We would build essentially a system that
If Roblox grows.
Our economy will grow.
And we're not gonna like be day in, day out.
Trying to fix the economy, if we build this system.
We can get back to making Roblox fun.
We are always working on safety. We continue to focus on that, focus on those things because we're gonna build a system that's gonna scale with the system.
And by the way, that did turn out to be true. If we typically double
the number of users or the number of hours
Will generally double the revenue.
Got it. So in this case
The numbers that were looking good that you mentioned before hours played.
is now directly correlated with another number, which looks good, which is the revenue, as opposed to diverging because one is subscription per month or whatever the
Interval was
That's right. Got it. Okay. We wanted to get to a point where
Revenue equals K times hours.
That was the hope. Just a constant. Pick a number.
Revenue equals some multiple times hours.
So then psychologically
What was exciting is a few days into this
It's like pretty relax we're obviously risking wasting three months on this and we're risking that this won't work.
But the opposite side of it.
Is
Oh my gosh.
We really can imagine this thing working.
And if this thing works.
It's really gonna work. And
This one thing is gonna work really, really well.
And it's a pretty complex feature. We needed digital currency. We needed users to be able to buy digital currency.
We need anyone's game in in your hide and go seek game.
You needed a facility to be able to sell a flashlight for five robucks.
We needed the facility
for you to take all of your robots and turn them into cash to support your living
As a creator.
We needed a discovery component to see what are the interesting games.
that you can spend robucks in
We needed developers to do all of this stuff, so we had to build all of this in parallel.
But w what was interesting is we had a s kind of some secret rocket engine behind it.
That for the first time ever as a compliment to this feature.
You or I can m imagine making a living on Roblox because before we were hobbyists and
All of a sudden
Whoa if I could make five grand a month with my Roblox game.
I might just work on that full time rather than an hour a day.
So we felt there would be a secret afterburner here that people would work harder on their Roblox games.
So fast forward
And we got to within a day of shipping.
And we're like
Okay, it's like we're kinda
Hoping this works, like I hope this works.
Now the dev community had heard about it. Everyone's really excited about it.
And the day we shipped it.
I would say
Within four hours.
We knew it's gonna work.
Just like
Um
Was that a revenue metric? Was it just an adoption metric? How did you know it was gonna work?
Oh my gosh, of the top
hundred creators on roadlocks.
Twenty two of them already
have robux features.
Oh my god.
Okay, got it. Like it integrated that quick. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
A bunch of users have already bought
Robux. Like
In the first four hours.
Oh my gosh, people are are spending robots.
In these places.
Oh my gosh.
It was a little example of what we would call
Doing the hard thing and taking the long view.
It's a little bit like when the strategic thing is right.
Everything else follows. And metaphorically it's a little bit like
First and foremost, if you're having a mental health crisis
Work on your body and your machinery
Maybe before you
Work on the
Talk therapy. Like get the strategic things right first.
And when you
We're about to ship.
To make this
virtual economy a reality, is digital economy.
prior to shipping, did you have a framework for how you would decide it was whether it was pass, fail? In other words
Was it time bound? Like we're gonna follow X, Y, and Z metrics for four weeks, and if it's not working, we're gonna roll back to the prior version. Like what was the plan B or was there
Nothing like that.
I feel this one we got.
Conviction.
I think what actually happened
Is in the back of our minds
We all really knew this was the right big way to go.
It was just so much work.
That we constantly kick the can down the road.
Tried to fix things, tried to do the small things.
Then finally when we just accepted reality, like we gotta do the right big picture thing.
All of a sudden it's like okay we accept the reality. We gotta do the strategic thing, then it then it was all good. And then then I think we started believing this.
This is gonna work.
All right. Let me ask a question about this digital economy. So you talked about
different creators.
making a living and many of them are doing much more than making a living on Roblox. Some of them are fantastically successful.
And one of my employees sent me his two kids' favorite games.
And then dad's favourite.
One of them.
is a game you mentioned, Grow a Garden.
And you also mentioned dress to impress, which shows up
For one of them. There are a bunch of other ones. Well, you know what, just for fun. There are a couple that show up a bunch. The Mimic Ninety Nine Nights in the Forest.
And there are many more. But I want to talk about grow garden specifically.
Because Grow Garden was also
The game.
that came up
when I was
In a text thread with my friend Kevin Rose.
And Kevin's an amazing entrepreneur, fantastically successful investor, and he kept sending me these videos.
these screen captures or iPhone videos, I don't know which.
of playing Grow Garden with his little girls and he just loves the game.
He's gotta be one of your
biggespenders, I would have to imagine, based on some of the conversations I've had with him. And he had a question
And I would love to know how you think about this as sort of
the Fed and the president and to everything involved.
at the top of the pyramid for this digital economy.
His observation was
that when something like Grow Garden comes out, and I apologize that I haven't participated in the ecosystem quite, so I can't speak to this, but once something is really successful.
A lot of copycats come out, like a lot of clones sort of come out.
How do you think about
handling that type of situation where people might go to an imitator believing it to be the original
they spend money, et cetera, all these possible complications, or maybe ensuring that
Creators are incentivized to put the time into developing their games.
if they fear they might be cloned. How do you think of handling a lot of these issues, which
Get handled.
offline as well, right? Of course, with like the USB TO and you have drug development and certain types of
rules or regulations around IP. How do you think about handling that in your digital economy?
I would say first more and more from a IP copyright
Standpoint
Things that are typically IP and copyrighted, like
The name Grow a Garden
And things like that.
Or avatars or things like that.
The same protections exist on our platform that would exist in any other platform.
What is trickier
is barring a name or a trademark or a copyright
A form of gameplay.
Has traditionally not been protected.
And so
I'm not a lawyer, so I might not be giving the exact right a thing, but if I made an experience on Roblox called
water your plants a lot and create an amazing garden and it kinda works like grow a garden.
That's a little hard to protect.
What we do find and we work a lot on it.
Is people who make similar type experiences
do try to draft on the main experience. They get very creative.
We have the ability because when people search for grow a garden
Or when they look for it and they type that in
We can see a lot about all of the games, the game that matches exactly like Grow a Garden.
Where even if someone types in the word garden
We know
Pretty well.
That there's one game on Roblox
With the name Garden in it.
that has
twenty five million people playing at the same time.
And there's a bunch of other games with the you know, word guard in it that have ten people playing and so
We can be pretty intelligent.
In really showing like this is grow a garden, even if you type garden.
And here's a few small other ones. We would not block Dave's try to create a garden game, even if Grow Garden were there.
What are
Some of the other
best decisions. I'm also going to ask biggest mistakes after this. So I'm just going to plant that seed because I often ask people what are their favorite
failures or mistakes, but in addition to the implementation of the digital economy.
What have been some of the best decisions
Those could be design features. Those could be
related to business model that could be related to
org chart of the company and how you thought about that could be really anything, but some of the best decisions that since made have contributed to the success of Roblox.
I think one of the best decisions we've made
is trying to
Optimize
Creator revenue.
Over profits, actually.
So when I'm running Roblox and we have our
CFO on our board and we have a lot of options
And we're making billions and billions of things flowing
Through the company
We end up with this really interesting decision.
We're we're trying to
Keep our employment costs as efficient as we can.
We're trying to keep the cost of running Roblox as efficient as we can.
We're trying to have really many interesting ways to
Efficiently.
purchase robux without that costing a lot.
And we end up with two final places the cash can go.
One is it can go back to the developers
Or the other is
Quote We can make
Profit.
And
Time and time again I think we've
leaned a bit on the direction of let's move back more to the creator
Community.
rather than being a ridiculously profitable company, we do generate cash and we put some cash in the bank
But generally we're trying to create that
creator community. And I think that goes hand in hand with
When we think about designing the product
We have
groups that work on our simulation engine and the user experience and the economy and trust and safety.
Our economy team's been pretty gracious.
And that their goal is to generate revenue
But
The real primary goal is to make Roblox engaging and interesting and fun.
Not at the expense of revenue. And so
Our economy team's been very gracious in a sense saying, Yeah, the primary goal is still user engagement.
not making money. So I think that's been a good
Decision.
Could you say more about that? Because people might have
Questions about that.
If you were the head of Roblox economy
And you said hey, Dave
For my job
All I wanna do is make the most money.
That seems like a logical thing for that economy team.
What I would say is, Well
We want to be careful. We like you for every feature you build.
To make sure
That it's neutral to positive on fun as well.
And that
If you come up with a wacky feature that
People get confused and just spend a lot of money and they're not quite as happy, but we make more money.
That would fail.
All of our metrics.
And so in a sense
We can make more money, but we really want to move all of the things. We wanna move fun. We wanna move how much people enjoy Roblox.
At the same time.
But also seems tell me if I'm misreading this, like
Playing the long game in the sense that if you want to build
the uh largest
company possible, right? If you want to have ten percent of all gaming content on Roblox, if you want to go beyond that.
I would say subject to constraints actually because what our mission is
Is connect a billion users
With optimism and civility.
And so
There's some pretty big guardrails around that in that.
We would not just take the billion daily users.
We would take the billion daily users if the average user on our platform
might come away with a higher level of civility than if they hadn't even played. So
We're actually trying to teach civility at the same time we're growing the company.
What I was gonna say is not mutually exclusive with that. I was just gonna say that
You need the game developers to be happy.
for the long term interest of everyone involved, including Roblox, right? So you don't want to kill the golden goose by
Pulling out as much profit as possible.
We think
Then more efficiently we run the company.
the more of the money flowing through that flow to the developers
It's a much better long game.
than just trying to be a hyper profitable company.
What are some of the
missteps or mistakes along the way that have
Stood out for you.
Generally
Missteps happen
Either not taking the long view.
And sometimes
Trying to do too much.
Rather than
Doing less better.
I'll I'll share a classic
Mistake
That's really
Hard to get one's head around
is maybe five to eight years ago
There's a whole category of gaming
That was around
being in a clan and making points and having rankings
And all of that.
Those are features that
Are beautiful.
When
Within a single game.
Or beautiful within certain games.
But arguably those are features that aren't necessarily
Something we should have been building as a platform. We should have trusted the developers to like
You go build your game with that stuff.
Rather than us.
Saying we want to be in the gaming business rather than the plot.
Form business.
We spent a lot of time building out some of that kind of clan ranking functionality, clan point stuff.
And we threw it all away.
It was trying to do too much.
On the platform.
We've done many, many things well.
One thing we did really well.
was Roblox was initially
a P C Macintosh company and there there was a time
When people did not believe that three D stuff
should happen on a phone. Phone games were two dimensional
You know, more puzzle type thing.
There is a technological leap that just like with the iPhone
You know, all of a sudden websites that were used to being these big P C websites
With a pinch and a zoom would work on an iPhone. The exact same
Website.
There's no more of this separate mobile web stuff.
It was a huge innovation.
And I think we did it right thinking that this three D immersive metaverse, you know, holodeck stuff.
would ultimately work on a phone as well. And most Roblox games run on a phone or a big screen at the same time.
And that is really
I'd say turned to pass.
And worked out really well.
For us. Why did you have confidence in that?
When others didn't.
It just seemed inevitable.
I think the reason we felt it was inevitable
Yeah.
People were watching movies on their phone at that time.
And movies are kind of three dimensional.
And teams are starting to approach movies. It it just seemed inevitable and
But that you're right. That was a little bit of
Me and a couple of other people in the company believed it, but that was a pivotal time when probably ninety percent of the company said, No way is this one gonna work.
But we took the risk on it.
What was the risk?
Distraction.
Yeah, like we're gonna spend all this time on this iPhone version of Roblox
But that same kind of stuff taking that big long leap.
There was a really fun
very simple game called survive the natural disaster on Roblox.
early on in the prototyping phase I had a version running on a very old iPhone.
And it was that same feeling as the virtual economy. It's just
This is gonna work.
Um
Now iPhones and Androids are the biggest platforms for Roblox.
The inevitability part.
is worth underscoring. I'll just share a quick story, which was in two thousand eight or two thousand nine when I first met Toby, CEO of Shopify. This is when they had nine or twelve employees, something like that.
And Harley as well. And I ended up becoming an advisor to the company, which was
Yeah.
Pretty good timing. But the point of the story is that
The way I decided to look at that really seriously was number one, I asked my fans how I should update my first book.
related to e commerce specifically, and they mention Shopify over and over again, but I took a look at it
And to borrow from this wild man
hacker slash investor named Pablos Holman.
He often will look out and he says, Okay, well, what's gonna happen next year is pretty hard, maybe, to predict with any precision, but what might happen in 10 or 20 years.
can be a little bit easier if you ask yourself, you know, will there be more or less e-commerce? I think it's pretty obvious, right? At that point, more. Will there be more phones?
Will there be more
Broadband connectivity, yes and yes. Like if you had to choose a yes or no. And pretty soon when you start to add up a few of those.
You come to the conclusion that this seems like an inevitability.
It also seems inevitable that someone's gonna win in this space.
So why not?
bet on the horse that my readers have recommended over and over again.
And that was the decision process.
There's more to it, of course. I mean Toby's a genius and Harley's amazing.
But if it was Toby from Shopify, you'd probably also had some intuition that
This is the type of person that can make that happen.
Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean it can't just be a good idea.
I mean the team was critically important and Toby is one of the best
First principles
Thinkers I've
And systems thinkers I've ever met in my life.
Toby's very systems thinker.
Absolutely.
Yeah. So that but the inevitability part.
I sometimes just like to point out to folks. It's like yeah, I've done a lot of angel investing and this and then I've had some luck, but
You can train yourself.
To ask some of these questions.
To narrow down.
The list of players you might consider just based on
these inevitabilities. And if you can't find an inevitability, it's like okay, maybe you just opt out of that.
particular, you know, playing field, whatever that might be.
Let me ask a couple of questions from one of my employees. This is again the father who plays with his kids.
We can do just a couple of these.
Are there any games that maybe aren't super popular but you particularly like?
Are there any games that are not sort of the greatest hits that a lot of people listening would know where you're like
Yeah, I really I am actually a fan of this game or that game.
Any come to mind?
Yeah, I I think what I'm a fan of and I'm hoping that happens more on Roblox is
More niche.
content that
Super fans.
Would have so
There's a couple simulations. One is I forget the name.
But it's the simulation of a full
airline company and it's a simulation
It seems unbelievable, but a simulation where
You go to the airport, you buy tickets, you wait.
In the lounge
You get on the plane with everyone else.
You take your seat.
You go on a flight.
For an hour, you get served with a flight attendant.
And everyone plays a role. You're either a passenger
You're a flight attendant, you're a pilot, you're an executive in the airline.
That kind of thing.
Really blows my mind.
Just because of the the potential for amazing role playing in
And the I think the potential for individuals to
Hey, there's a role for everyone.
There's the the the first class passengers
That's a role. There's also the baggage handler or the whatever. I think that's really fun.
I also like uh model railroading and I think
Yeah, I like all the railroad games on Roblox because
There's this hobby thirty, forty, fifty years ago.
before we had computers that people would make all these model railroad sets in their midwestern basements and they don't do that anymore.
But I th I I like the idea that that hobby can go digital on a platform like Roblox.
How many games are there roughly on Roblox?
The the number is almost
Мінінг
Because it's millions and millions.
And millions.
And
What it turns into is more of these crazy numbers like
How many people make more than a million dollars? I think
That's pretty big. How many people can make a living
That's thousands and thousands that can make a living.
How many make any money at all? That's
will validate that I'm giving you the right number, but that's tens, if not hundreds, of thousands, so
And then how many are sh are making cool stuff to show off with their friends?
That's in the millions.
There's a lot.
Alright, this is another one again from my employer. What are things kids can do to be extra safe on Roblox?
Or I guess by extension that parents could do to ensure their kids are extra safe.
On Roblox.
This is a big one and I think we are really working
to keep kids on Roblox actually. And this might sound counterintuitive.
But we're really
Working to keep people in a place where text is filtered and we can monitor critical harms and where
There's no image sharing or video sharing.
I would say the backstory of the industry right now is there are a lot of ten year olds
Who had phones?
And there's a lot of ten year olds who can install software
That is for thirteen year olds. And a lot of that software
allows more open communication, unfiltered communication and sharing pictures and
There's a lot of things that go on on the internet that are really terrible
When people start sharing images, they can get blackmailed, they can get
start trying to meet someone in the real world. So
We're working really hard to just
Stay on roadblocks and I would say
There are controls for parents as far as if
You only want your kid to communicate
With the people you pick.
We will offer that for you.
But I would say we accept the responsibility and the challenge.
That not all kids are talking with their parents.
And
There are so many kids out there
Who when they're ten they get handed an iPhone.
And
They go try a bunch of stuff and we we have to build Roblox in a way
That is as safe as possible for those kids.
What does the future hold, do you think, just for
Safety precautions.
Or other
technological innovations that might just help
You to manage the entire system in that way.
To mitigate risk.
I think we're rapidly approaching
A position
Where
what is going on is in addition to all of our investigators and in addition to all of that
The advancements in AI that we're bringing forward on our platform and some of the things we've committed to.
make this essentially
Not just a very, very, very, very, very good
System.
But a system that we almost take for granted.
one thing that we have in the works right now by the end of this year
Using AI, using age estimation, using the camera on everyone's phone.
We're gonna know pretty well the age of everyone on our platform.
And in addition to filtering all text on our platform and in addition to monitoring for critical harms.
We're gonna start clustering people by ages just so
Unless
You happen to know that person who's a far age away. We're not gonna let you communicate at all. So I think we're gonna
Zero in on that.
So I do think
over time both on the communication and the content side as well.
We're gonna get to that.
You know
Well beyond very, very, very, very, very, very good
Type system.
How long have you been in AI shop, I suppose is one way to put it.
Roblox.
Like how long have you had elements?
behind the scenes.
Behind the scenes Roblox is a
hundreds of different
AI model shop.
We build them ourselves.
We have built
All of our own text safety models, all of our own voice safety models.
a lot of the models we use for figuring out what is a cool game to play.
We built our own translation system that is starting to translate.
From one
Language to another.
We have started to debut
Some of the more
I wouldn't say more exciting, more futuristic stuff.
Which is three D creation.
Buy AI.
So that
Even if you or I aren't used to using three D tools, we can talk about things.
And have those be created.
And we have more coming. As you said earlier, I think you used something like procedurally generated real time dreaming.
I mean we have our eyes on that and I I think
Beyond I would say
Oh, can I use AI to make a game?
It's interesting to think
If someday will AI
literally create an evolving game as we're walking around almost as if you and I are
In a dream world or the holodeck talking about the holodeck.
Um
Just have that.
Filling around us.
I mean that's another thing that seems kind of inevitable, right? I mean, why wouldn't that happen, right? It seems like I don't know how do you're holding a finger up, so what do you think? I think you're exactly right. I think
Yeah, a long time ago if we read a comic book
We would see Dick Tracy
With a T V set on his watch.
And we would just say that's completely crazy. We'll never see a TV setup. Now we have a smart
Watch. And a long time ago we had Hal in two thousand one.
And no one's ever gonna be like that.
And arguably the AI systems today are
Are better than hell.
in two thousand one so
Yeah, I think the average consumer, you or me or other people
If we have a crazy vision of some future technology
There's a good chance we're gonna figure out how to build it someday.
Yeah, the impossible sir.
Yeah.
Worth questioning. I mean, particularly within the realm of AI. I mean
I was listening to a
Professor Well Fei Fe Fei Fe Li, I believe her name is. I know Fe Fe them they're working on a beautiful, wonderful idea of a company.
They are.
And she's incredible. We're actually at Princeton at the same time and
She had Andre Carpathias student at one point, I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that, but the the point is they were generating descriptions from images. And Faye Faye, I think at one point she talked about this in her TED talk, was saying what if we could generate an image
from the description. So go the other direction. And even at that time, which was not that long ago, if you think about it.
Uh, Andre was like, Yeah, no, that's impossible. That's not gonna happen. And yet here we are.
I mean, really, just in the blink of an eye. So a lot of these things, like the holodeck you're talking about, it's like I'm sure you guys are working on this.
there are other people working on some version of this, right? The ability to walk around Rome or something with a friend or to be in their living room.
with very, very lightweight hardware.
It's like man, this stuff feels like it's just around the corner. I mean, who knows? People have said that about fusion for a long time. So
But I think in this particular case, it's just so technologically enabled and the development is so rapid.
That's the same.
It's hard for me to imagine a future without these things. I mean
How far away do you think these things are? The holodeck has come up a couple of times. Like how far away?
If you were a betting man.
There's like some various things to think about, right?
How long till a Hollywood movie is maybe AI generated?
Three to five years, maybe?
Crazy.
How long before there's a product
Where
Instead of
Whatever you like, TikTok, shorts, real spotlight, whatever short form video product you like.
How long before some of that activity, rather than you thumb scrolling?
You're kind of watching a continuous video, like of your dream, rather than all of those?
Who knows?
Like that's gonna be kind of crazy.
I think one of the things we have our eyes on that is technically very difficult
How long could we support
A photo realistic music concert with a hundred thousand people in the same stadium.
Where if you and I were on the other side of the stadium and I waved flag, you could see me
And we could have a full simulation of how that concert
We've got our eyes on that. I'm not gonna make a
prediction, but that's a really big technical lift.
to build that kind of technology out, but I think that's gonna happen as well.
You know, how long before my glasses have full AR overlay and I'm getting a lot of feedback.
Starting to see early signs of that.
So like there's a lot of cool stuff coming down the pipe.
I know a lot of friends who have gone from private to public.
And it's not to say it's a bad thing. In a lot of ways it can be an incredible thing.
But you have more
sort of voices at the table in some respects.
I'm wondering how you think about preserving some of the or ensuring that some of the constraints and values you put in place early
Continue.
even with those additional voices at the table. So for instance, you mentioned TikTok, question from another friend was around Roblox moments, and then they said context. Moments has recently released beta short form video format similar to TikTok.
And then I think back to when you were talking about

STEM and some of the games that my friends use with their kids.
Which relate to critical thinking and so on.
And I know nothing about moments. So you could
Describe it.
Similar to TikTok, I think, man.
Yeah.
Well
If kids are able to use that instead of something that is STEM focused, like that's quite
a battle for attention and I'm not sure who wins there. Maybe the TikTok.
Analog.
Wins. How do you think about
Product development.
Moving forward.
Yeah, so one thing I think that there's a separation on intention
in that historically side by side the big
thing I shared with you about this desire to connect.
I think there is also a desire to tell stories and consume stories.
And
A lot of consuming stories is a a bit of a different emotional head space. Yeah, chilling out, watching a movie, watching a TV show, scrolling through short form video.
Things like that.
What I think is exciting
is people have different mental models of I wanna go hang out with people and do stuff together or I wanna
be by myself and consume
Stuff by myself.
And that gives me
some positivity on building a connection platform'cause that desire I think
For people to be with friends and meet and hang out with friends is always gonna be there.
On the moments thing.
The reason we created Roblox moments
behind the scenes is
There's a couple of things going on. People are looking for ways
To find cool Roblox content.
And one of the coolest ways to find content is
See what your friends are doing or see what other people are doing and jump into that.
So we think it's like a gentle way
To help feel
People find more interesting stuff.
You mentioned STEM on that side.
I do feel
Once again, behind the scenes of everything that's happened on Roblox from then to now.
If we were to tabulate
The number of
new entrance into computer science or graphic arts or
economics that had been inspired by Roblox.
It probably is in the millions, given just the
That experience that people have had on our platform.
What are some of the challenges of being a public company?
See ya.
If your machinery is functioning
you can keep making those I would say bigger, more optimistic
Decisions.
I think
When we talked earlier about you're feeling you're in ketosis or you're feeling you're not in it.
I think there's a little bit of a connection
to if the machinery is running properly
The decisions tend to drift a little bit more long term.
And strategic because you're not fight or flight.
Whereas if you're in a glucose crash and you're a little more fighter flighty
Those decisions can tend to lean more tactical.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point.
The long term thing's gonna be impossible. Everything's an emergency.
Let's just do doo doo doo doo doo doo
And so I think trying to stay
In the right balance of long term decision making is a big
Thing.
So for people who may not be watching the video.
And perhaps they've seen photos of you, but when we had our conversation a while back, this was
our first conversation discussing the possibility of doing this.
Podcast together.
biohacking came up as one topic we could explore. Maybe you could speak to
some aspects or elements of your self care routine because you obviously take good care of yourself.
Thoroughly exercise.
What does the regimen look like?
Whether it's like what does a week in the life look like in terms of when you are performing at your best?
supporting the machinery.
A lot of it is just trying to
Had some form of movement every day.
As you said, get some sun every day.
On the diet side
Definitely
Pretty much
Two nights ago I had a glass of wine. I could definitely feel it.
So
Try to keep
very, very low on the alcohol.
I would say try to stay in moderate ketosis.
Have the workouts fun and set up and a a balance of those things.
It's not that complicated.
Like you, I'm trying to eat in that say one to six window.
And trying to know generally what pieces I would eat.
Trying to more get to bed at at nine o'clock rather than eleven o'clock type thing.
What do your meals look like? I imagine maybe you have some commonalities in meals from day to day.
low carb everywhere.
Fair amount of meat.
Fair amount of eggs.
Fair amount of butter, couple with lettuce, veggies, stuff like that.
And what about sort of non negotiable exercise? Do you have
A
Weight training three times a week. Do you have
Something else that is sort of non negotiable?
Crossfit three times a week, hiking
with a way to invest three or four times a week.
Pretty simple.
And you've got your aura ring on. What kind of stuff do you track for yourself? Are you recording these workouts? Are you just doing the work out of the day as prescribed by the CrossFit Gym?
I've got a trainer that I've I've got a dialogue and my g whole thing set up in my garage. So we have like a
Fun little
thing going on there.
On my aura ring.
Somewhat similar to when you were talking about your
Sleep score.
I don't look at my aura
Thing.
Maybe more than once a month.
Because I
I actually don't want to get freaked out by how bad my sleep are.
Yeah, good idea. Good idea.
So I I'm like you, I'm in the sixty to eighty, sixty to ninety zone.
On the sleep. I try on the sleep just not to worry about it.

More than once a month. What are you doing once a month? Are you crunching that yourself? Just scrolling through the aura ring it
Or are you exporting the data and doing something with it? I'm just looking at the aura ring. What I'm mostly looking for once a month is the like the Aura projected stress score, the Aura projected cardio age.
I'm looking for like what's my
lowest heart rate while I'm sleeping, I'm looking at HRV.
Just like do a scan of those things.
Maybe temperature.
But nothing too much more
Then that's the
I would say I've spent
quite a long time wearing a CGM or a CKM to dial in my diet and watching those.
odd type things. That would be my biggest recommendation for people.
Yeah.
To wear a CGM if you can yeah, I think you can buy'em on Amazon.
Right now.
Because
It's pretty interesting at Roblox.
We give everyone a CGM.
Which CGM do you give them? I think it's free style or whatever. I don't know.
Or I think they can buy either one.
The other thing we do at Roblox is
We have pretty good snacks.
But we label all of the snacks at Roblox on two axes.
One is the whole food axis.
And not all whole foods is metabolically
necessarily metabolically what I would call metabolically good. Like
Fresh squeeze, orange juice.
Might be whole foods.
Yeah.
Hemlock's a whole food too. Yeah. And then we also put it on another axis, which um we just picked up the good energy axis. It's not a strict
Edo access, but it's pretty close to that.
And we've got the uh
Casey Mean's book from that and all of that.
So every snack at Roblox is either
Is it whole energy or not? Is it
Whole food or not?
And what's surprising is with that, with talking about it at company meetings, with giving out the CGMs.
I get all kinds of slacks from
Engineers saying, Oh my gosh.
My life's been changed.
I've been wearing the CGM
And
We used to eat
Just white.
giant plates of white rice every dinner.
We've read a few books and I'm not eating that. I lost thirty pounds and I feel so sharp.
And that's amazing. And then I'm like
We actually I'm I'm we're getting a lot of that from employees in the company.
Mm.
Yeah.
It is remarkable how much stabilizing your glucose metabolism and just how far that goes. Touches every aspect of your life.
David, just a few more questions, then we'll wrap right up. This is uh just kind of a couple of rapid fire.
Before we land the plane.
Favorite books or books that you've gifted or recommended a lot to other people?
Are there any books that come to mind?
One of our board members gave me this book called The Infinite Game.
And it's the original Infinite Game book. There's some follow ons from it.
about like how to implement the infinite game so I forget the original author
So there's a book by Simon Sinek, which is the Infinite Game. The original finite and infinite games I believe is Cars.
Yeah, that's the one, the original
That one
Really
Got me
Into thinking.
Fan
Play
Roblox is a long game
Yeah, it's not a short game.
That one I think really
Got me thinking. So I'm a
Big fan of that.
Were there any books?
That
had an outsized influence on you as an entrepreneur.
Or a company builder.
You know what's interesting is
I've never really ever liked any business books ever.

Yeah, I feel you.
The books I was obsessed with
In my youth
Were the books about
Magellan and Captain Cook and Mutiny on the Bounty and Joshua Slocum and just
All of these, you know
crazy explorer, you know, Amundson and Scott and all of that stuff.
For some reason that was my go to category.
Probably.
In some ways a more helpful
set of reading than the typical business books where you have complete information in retrospect, whereas these people just forging off into the unknown or dealing with catastrophe and challenges and curveballs at every turn.
Amundsen versus Scott.
Is such a balance of
Knowing how to play the long game and being prepared.
Versus no.
And it's it's a great comparison.
Okay, two last questions. This one is the billboard question.
If you could put metaphorically speaking
A message, a question, a quote.
Anything.
on a billboard to get the message to
millions or billions of people.
Anything non commercial.
Could be a mantra, something you live by.
Anything at all.
What might you put on that billboard?
You know what? I'm I'm thinking metaphorically right now, just off our whole conversation and then popping back to surrealistic pillow. I don't know if everyone would get it, but how about feed your head?
Feed your head. Yeah.
Yeah.
Feed your head.
Because that's what Petokus does.
Yeah.
Yeah, God, you're inspiring me. I was kind of on the fence about whether or not to do ketosis before my next trip to Mexico, and I'm thinking it's time to get into ketosis.
David is there anything else?
that you'd like to say or point people to, anything at all, anything you'd like to ask of my audience. Of course people can find Roblox, R-O-B-L-O-X.com, Roblox they can find you on X at David Bazookie. We'll link to all of these things, as well as YouTube and Bazook.
Is there anything else you'd like to
Say or mention before we
Wine to a close here?
No, I I wanna thank you for having me on and I think
Going back to your earlier book, I just wanna also think one other thing I really remember
Is your mixing of I forget what kind of oil you were mixing with your coffee, like
Really early on.
And Oh yeah, could have been yeah, could could have been M C T oil, could have been any number of things that I was experimenting with.
Yeah, and I I think you were on to something there,'cause I I have my coffee
with whole cream, which is zero carb, which I think has some overlap with your MCT oil. So
My takeaway would be if you want to dabble in ketosis.
Go buy some whole cream for your coffee rather than half and half.
Yes. Heavy cream, just to be clear, it's not half and half. Heavy cream.
Which sometimes coffee shops will have in the back.
It is effectively pure fat, and man is that stuff delicious also. But back in the day.
Right, with the kids with epilepsy when it was hard to get them to maybe choke down the butter and this and the other thing. Heavy cream. That was the key.
Key to the kingdom of feeding your head. David, thanks so much for the time. I really appreciate it.
For folks listening, we'll link to everything in the show notes at Tim.blog slash
podcast. And until next time, be just a bit kinder.
Then is necessary.
But also to yourself.
And feed the machine.
Beat your head.
Doesn't always have to be something you think your way out of. Sometimes you have to fix the physiology. Thanks for tuning in.
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