The Science of Trust, Identity, and Tension | Claude Steele

0:00 Пиче Black seventh grader has been acting up in class. His parents are heading into the parent teacher conference. And before they even get out of the car. They're running through everything that could go wrong.

0:15 Will this Teacher see our son. Or will that teacher see a stereotype? Yeah. And on the other side of that same table.

0:24 The teacher is running through their own version of the same story. Am I going to say the wrong thing to these parents? Well they think that I'm racist or Bigotted in some way.

0:35 And Neither one of them is prejudiced. None of them are really bad apples. They're they're good people. They're just Stop. Stuck in a kind of static that gets louder and louder the more that it matters.

0:51 Yeah. Today's guest has a word for that static, and he calls it churn. Welcome to Behavor Grues, I'm Kurt Nelson. And I need to start with an apology. is when it came to time for us to record this conversation with our guest.

1:15 I was actually got In jury duty. I was sitting in the jury pool on that day. Um, so it was just Tim on this one holding it down. Doing doing the great work that Tim does and so you'll probably actually enjoy the episode more. Because honestly, I will say that the conversation

1:39 Absolutely didn't need the two of us to really make a sing because our guest in this episode is Claude Steele. And if you spend any time at all in the world of behavioral science, you're probably already familiar with his name. Claude is a social psychologist. The Lucy Stern Professor in Social Sciences Emeritus at Stanford University. He served as provost at two other major universities. He's kinda star.

2:03 Yeah, kind of a rock star. Claude is also a key researcher behind stereotype threat, the idea that near fear of confirming a negative stereotype. Can hurt performance. Fascinating, really fascinating work. And his work has reshaped how an entire generation of psychologists, educators, and business leaders think about identity and about achievement. And it all came out of his landmark book. Whistling Vivaldi.

2:30 Now Claude is back with a new book. Called churn, the tension that divides us, and how to overcome it. And it picks up right where Whistling Vivaldi left off. Where the first book was about the individual The new book is about the relationship. And it's about what happens when two people or two groups sit across the table from each other in a moment that matters.

2:53 And neither one is sure. How they're going to be seen. No. Here's what we think is the most important thing you'll hear in this episode. Claude argues that the tension that we feel

3:08 Around people who are different from us. Is usually isn't about prejudice at all. It's it it's about mutual human fear of being misjudged. And it hits on both sides of the table and it hits at the same time.

3:24 And that fix isn't about Eliminating bias. It's it's about building Trust. In English and stick around um after the interview because Tim and I are going to dig into exactly what that means for Things like classrooms, boardrooms, and everyday conversations in our grouping session. So stay tuned.

3:44 I I just have to make a little pitch here on a musical and sort of personal note that Claude and I dropped into this super cool conversation about Miles Davis and Gil Evans. And if you're a jazz fan. You're gonna instantly recognize Miles Davis and Gil Evans names. Uh, but it's a great conversation.

4:02 'cause it t it does two things. It bridges this music side with the story of how people from two different cultures and two different racial backgrounds interact. And of course that happened because I wasn't on the show. True. So you guys get the benefit of of this for me being in jury duty. Um so with that, please sit back. And relax with a warm pour of trust over tension and enjoy our conversation with

4:32 F Steel. Tim's conversation. With quad steel. Quad Steel, welcome to Behavioral Groups.

4:48 Thank you. It's a great great pleasure to be here. We're we, I say we, unfortunately Kurt is not here because he's on jury duty, but I I'm very, very excited to to be speaking with you today. We have both crafted the our discussion guide around what what what we uh want to talk about. And we both love the book. We really love what you're you're doing and writing about. Appreciate it. Yeah. Well, thank you for writing it. So gotta get loosened up with a simple speed round. Uh first off, would you prefer to learn a new Instrument or a new language?

5:20 A new language, I think. Oh, what anything come to mind? Well, I I've tried to learn French for the last fifty years. Okay. And I I go I have gone frequently and then you know, just about the time you feel you're making real progress I'm back home again for another year and a year and a half. So it's been such a sputtering effort. Okay. The ambition has not died. So I I I when you ask that question, yes, the language comes right to mind. But even with AI and these, you know, instant translation things and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. I just still admire the um

6:02 The ability to They have two languages to go back and forth between languages and and uh I do spend I ha I have uh uh a a relationship in in in Greece at this point. And so I spend a lot of time there and and in Europe in general. And um I just admire the Europeans and their ability to to do that and uh switch and you know, I I wish I had that capacity, but not yet.

6:28 I haven't given up, but not yet. I c I couldn't agree more. Okay, second second speedrun question. Coffee Or T. Coffee. Hello.

6:38 Yeah, okay. I have a cups I have a collection of coffee cups in my uh in my living room that I'm very proud of. Cups and sauces. I like the the the whole combination of things. I wanna I wanna you know, worship the

6:58 Experience. So So I dress it up a bit, but it's a I love coffee. Do you have a but the fact that you're you mentioned the cups and the saucers together, like that's kind of an old school experience. Yeah. And so these uh these mugs, these cup these cups are not these modern mugs of There are now Vetties and things like that. You need a coffee cup and a saucer and maybe a little spoon. on it to uh to stir and shovel in sugar or whatever you're gonna put in there. But uh I I I the the there's a romance with it for me. It's sort of a symbolism for me. So I Yeah, I I look forward to it in the morning.

7:43 That's fantastic. Okay. That that's a terrific answer. Thank you. Okay, third speed round question. True or false? We're slowing down. So We're slowing down on the pursuit of equality and inclusion because we're simply worn out.

7:57 By pursuing it. Yeah. I mean I think there is a Uh fatigue, as it's often called, um to in in this area of life. You know it's such a long uh la uh uh uh fissure in American uh history and ongoing society and

8:15 And uh we we were all troubled by it. I think that that that's one of the That's one of the themes of the book is that Um if you the the minorities, blacks, whites It's it's a challenge for all of us to to um deal with our history and that's one of the aspirations of the book is to help people understand the weight of it in our contemporary life and and how to deal with that weight. Uh so uh I I I d and to how to f lessen that sense of fatigue.

8:43 And and being worn out. Uh dealing with it. You know, it it it just is there. And again Seeing being in Europe sometimes, they they just don't quite have it. To the same degree that we they're society. Yeah.

8:57 Are composed differently than ours. And Well. But we have this Marvelous society. That has accomplished so much. And even in this area.

9:06 I think we lead the world in our attempts to deal with this. We had a civil war. We had a civil rights movement. We had a We had some real effort here. Uh and uh we're we're not there yet. We're not in the end zone. No uh Yeah, but but it it is part of our character and and and like even in a in even in a a good relationship, you

9:32 You can get a little tired sometimes. I think I think it I think it comes and goes. It's it's in the book I call Tug of War, you know, for us. It's it's something that we just inherit as Americans. Yeah, uh before we get to the last beadrong question, I just couldn't help but notice that it was sixty five years ago yesterday. that the freedom writers uh buses were bombed as they were leaving Atlanta on the on the way to Alabama.

10:00 I mean that's that's my lifetime. So Yeah, if you're doing the calculations. You know. Um that's just it's it's Scary to think that in my lifetime Mm.

10:12 those bombings were happening. You know the Klu Klux Klan members were out You know, dragging people off a bus and just beating them. Uh Uh And

10:22 I hope we've made some progress. Uh sometimes I'm I well I think we I think we have. I I I do think we have. I again I mean I I don't wanna be uh have some kind of false consciousness where we're we're all out of the Don't have to deal with it a anymore, but I I I do think we've made Pro progress. Important it's important to acknowledge that progress. I I you know, some people wanna repress our history.

10:47 Because they're kind of afraid of how to deal with it. Uh But I I think being open to our history and giving ourselves credit for the struggle and the effort is is is an important reason for for studying that history and making making our making it a fundamental foundational part of our education.

11:07 Um so I because I think there's a lot to take heart from in in the human character's ability to deal with these with these challenges and to prevail along the way. And to the veil. Move things forward. Yeah um we do have a ways to go, but but uh We have dealt with it and we're gonna continue to deal with it.

11:27 Yeah. Okay, we are finally at the end of our speed round questions. This last one. This is a bit more psychological, but I'm curious, uh this is sort of a yes-no question. And Do you believe that our attitudes and prejudices prejudices are more likely to follow Our behavior. Or are they more likely to lead?

11:46 to our behavior. Yeah, that's a great question, especially for social psychologists, because one of the things we've learned in our science, uh Is that attitudes, beliefs, prejudices? Uh they do s sometimes on some circumstances drive a behavior, cause a behavior. Uh but but they're they're relatively weak in that respect. Uh but they are but they they come into existence it it often it

12:13 To justify behavior. They follow behavior in that sense. We behave in a way and then we adopt an attitude that makes that a good thing to have done. Or to have believed. And that's a very powerful uh force and and that I think that is an important way to understand the nature of prejudice is when you You the the that if if we're going to live segregated lives, for example, just as as an example, then

12:44 That behavior will produce attitudes which justify that segregation. And make sense of that segregation and make that try to make us comfortable with that segregation. If we live more integrated lives, where we have a lot more experience and contact with each other, Uh then we'll our attitudes our brief beliefs Mindset, yeah. That's a sensible thing to do and and and so on. So I I think that is an important insight about the nature of human prejudice is is that

13:16 Uh uh let's let's work with the behaviors. Let's get and and in in big part this is one of the Yeah, the aspirations of the book is to Say well here's the Here's the way to do it. Here's the behaviors to do it. Listen to people.

13:31 Be open. Listen again, really try to see. The their perspective and in doing that alone you signal to them that you respect them and that you see their their humanity. Uh and and uh then uh the attitudes will follow. Your your your beliefs will will f will follow. Um and then try to try to be as helpful as you can to your fellow citizens.

13:55 And that that that pathway is is underappreciated as a way of reducing prejudices and Distances between people. Uh and and the like. So Uh taking that question you ask and uh You know

14:10 Turning it that way. I I think can be helpful to people. It kinda relaxes people. A bit. As you know, as you say that It is so

14:20 Interesting because before we started recording, you were talking about just having conversations with people. And we've spent a lot of time with Nick Eple and his work about just Talking to strangers, having the simplest of conversations. with someone that you don't know can boost your your self-worth and how you feel that day. You can just feel better that day with a a knock on effect that might last a a a few more days or even a week or so just from having that one conversation. Yeah. And and yet we

14:50 We hold back from it because we're so afraid of what the other what we think that other person might think. And and Claude, if I un if I hear you right, you're s kind of saying the same thing. It is. It it you know, I I love uh Nick's work on that. And uh in in a sense we're holding back'cause we're insurance. There we are. Perfect. Well no, well done. Okay, so outreach to my book. But it it it is it is

15:21 And and how's what how can I say this? And what could I say and what should I not say here? What should I think and what does it say about me if this that that all that busy c uh uh work uh is is churn. And and often if you can if you can just sort of re redefine this. that uh allow allows you to be open to the other person. It it kinda goes away. It relaxes.

15:53 And you you do see there. full humanity and you do connect that way and it really does boost your Your sense of security in life in general, I I I think, but But certainly your sense of security. i in dealing with with diversity and with people from different backgrounds and who have different identities and and and and so on. It can it can for all of us.

16:15 Uh uh do do that. So I that's I I like Nick's work in that. That's all that's a good example. I I I should have made more of it in the book that I was that we're talking about. But it's a good example of Of what the hope of the book is about. You you talk about you at one point you define churn uh as including both mental agitation and physical stress.

16:38 Right. And and this is this is on And Who is who is feeling that churn? Because you also talk about actors and observers. Um just frame for our our listeners, if you would. Where w who is feeling that churn and what is causing the those

16:55 circumstances and predicaments that you talk about. that create that charm. Yeah, may maybe I could begin with the with the story that the book begins with in the in in the prologue. Uh of the uh the parent teacher conference and uh the child and parents are African American and the teacher is white. And they're uh they're they're going to a scheduled meeting.

17:19 And as the uh African American parents get get ready to go and get in their car, they're having the conversation, they they know the negative stereotypes about their identity. And they know them full well. And they're this is their chance to Let the school know they don't want their son seen in terms of those stereotypes. And um you know, they they want the school to see the That he

17:43 has the kind of intellectual ability and promise that is worth investing in. And that small transgressions should not be seen as as uh an underlying aggressive disposition of s of some sort. So They they're worried about these things as You would be.

18:00 And so the but then is again is it going to the to the meeting there what kind of teacher is it? They're asking themselves this, what kind of teacher is this? Is she, you know, uh uh soft expectations? Is she tough love? Uh is she gonna be colorblind here? What Wha w is she comfortable with racial realities? Uh what are we do let's don't jump to race. Let's give her a chance to So all that's so the parents have this churn. They've yeah, just going into it, they they've got churn on their side. Yeah.

18:30 But they arrive at their minute. Yeah. Yeah. As as they arrive, they're full of churn. And the teacher for her part Is also. Full churn.

18:39 Uh she's worried that you know, she's committed to her students and she's tries to be sensitive to the needs of of minority students and And she's been at this for a long time and And uh but she knows that if if uh If she says something that could be even slightly

18:57 Challenging or negative. that she could be seen in terms of the negative stereotypes in our society about her identity. Which is that She's racist. And that would just be so distressing to

19:10 Have that. Befall her. Uh so she's coming into the meeting, oh how can I how what can I say, what can I not say, what's it So h here we are, we're in this um American drama. Uh because of the images of these identities that are in the air, so to speak, and that are relevant in this situation. And this situation is important.

19:31 If they were just too b you know, meeting it. If they were just strangers on a subway car. Who cares? They it would be of no. Emotional significance.

19:41 But this is an important meeting. Mistakes are felt strongly by both parties. And that that makes this churn intense Preoccuping Uh enough to interfere with how well they functioned in that in that meeting.

19:55 Uh and and also interestingly, it really isn't coming from prejudice. They're prejudices. It has nothing to do with with that. If you were prejudiced or unprejudiced, you'd feel this churn in this society to the same degree. Talk about that. Why why is that the case? Well it's it's because the the it it's the the the stress, the pressure here for both groups is is that they're they're uh at risk of of being devalued in this setting.

20:24 Uh based on their identities. So that's what they're dealing with is that threat. Of just being Given the stereotypes and the images that they know about their how their group can be seen. in this society, uh that oh my goodness, this big this is c a place where I could be seen in this in this way. And that that's identity threat.

20:45 They're just experiencing in this meeting. identity threat. If both parties were Uh we're Race?

20:54 Black teacher, black parents. Yeah, it probably wouldn't be a big deal. Because um They can be pretty secure then. that they won't be seen by another group member in terms of the worst stereotypes of that group.

21:08 Uh and the teacher if it was just all whites involved here wouldn't be so worried that she's the whole idea of being racist is isr is irrelevant to that kind of a conversation. Yeah. So it's I I I wanted to draw out the the fact that this this is uh in a society like ours, this is an inherent challenge of diversity itself, of integration. Uh there. And the that's part of what's

21:35 What's challenging about it is that we we can worry as in important situations. Where we have to come together. workplaces, classrooms. Uh doctor-patient relationships, traffic stops. Uh we can worry that oh my goodness, based on my identity, I could be really

21:52 seen or treated in terrible in a terrible way here and I gotta be careful. I uh th this is and so all of a sudden This diverse experience. Is is making me uncomfortable. And and uh threatening and

22:06 I you know, I guess I I've just seen so much of this in in both my My own experiences, um, and also in it coming from my research on On stereotype threat. Yeah. Yeah. Just the sense of being under the threat of being seen and treated stereotypically.

22:23 Uh I I've seen it. I've seen it in the laboratory. I've seen it in real life. And so I I I I It it it occurred to me somewhere along the way that so it really the tension between us isn't really all about prejudice. If you took a a a magic wand and a and just waved it and got rid of all prejudice.

22:45 In this society you'd still have this particular tension. In another society they'd have it too, but it'd be around different issues, different stereotypes, different identity threats. But in our society This racial one, or this gender one, or this social class one. Or the sexual orientation one. The the the these these identities have

23:06 Th this kind of significance when we bring people Uh together. diversify or to integrate a setting as we used to call it. Yeah, thank you. Well said. That was just beautifully said. Um

23:18 Yeah. You were talking about You mentioned a couple of words. You talked about situations and predicaments. And We talk a lot in behavioral science about how context matters.

23:29 the importance of context in our behaviors and how Yeah. our behavior changes because of different context. And then y you actually brought up this example of No.

23:39 If it the parent teacher conference, you know, between these Two people or these three people might have happened Not in a uh not in a c a classroom, but maybe on just a a casual subway things it might might might not have mattered. Why is that? Why why does context matter so much? In in these In these churn situations.

24:00 Yeah, uh yes I th I It it's I think that the the thing that the the flame underneath churn that makes it intense. That that makes it burn, so to speak. Uh is is the importance of the situation. that that uh it so if it's if it's not important to the person, you know, we're just in a sitting next to each other in a basketball game and I'm never gonna see That person again.

24:25 No, I I oh well, so they got their views. I don't know. I don't care. What's going what's the score? Uh we're we're we're we're not paying attention to that, but where my My fate is involved. You know, I'm in a I'm in a traffic stop. Hm. And I I know what could happen here. It's the that same

24:44 that same uh worry about how I'm gonna be seen, or the same idea that I could be seen in terms of of of negative stereotypes of my group. That can be very frightening. Yeah in that situation. If I'm in a If I'm a student in a classroom and my teacher Isn't gonna see

25:03 They're gonna if my teacher's going to really believe in my failures and really doubt my successes. And I really want to be a good student. I wanna succeed in life. I wanna be a member belonging in this school. Uh that could be a very daunting experience to have to endure over a long, prolonged period of time. It could really affect affect how I function, how I feel and and and my ability to to engage the work of this of the classroom.

25:31 Or the workplace and and so on. So So the i I'm I I guess m my work in in uh this book and in in in the book preceding it on stereotype thread is is to try to draw out the nature of this Of this threat. In the air. That can uh come from

25:49 Images of our group that we we just wander into a situation where those images are relevant and all of a sudden we know we could be seen in terms of them and Yeah. And and you're you're not Posing a sort of a Pollyanish, uh we can just ameliorate all this stuff. But i i if I understand you correctly, correct me if I'm wrong here, but but it but as I read the book it's about sort of lowering the temperature. It's a it right. It's about yeah. Making it I I don't think.

26:15 Yes, I I I don't I I'm not trying to uh uh say th that this is somehow an easy thing. I I think it's a major thing. You know, I I think it affects so many things. Um It it could affect my college major. Or the career path I want to have. Am I gonna if I'm a woman and And I'm I'm interested and good at math. Um but I get to college and

26:42 As the classes get more and more advanced, I'm in fewer and fewer well their women are there and And I know the stereotypes about women's abilities in math, and every time I raise my hand in class, I'm a little extra worried compared compared to the man next to me, that I could be seen in terms of that stereotype. But maybe I just don't need that. Maybe I'll be a historian. And there wow is not so stereotyped. I'll be happy there.

27:08 But I but to spend my whole life as an engineer with these guys and this pressure all the way up the ladder, uh maybe I don't want that so much. Um unconscious level, right? Yeah. This might not be this not be a con a conversation we're actually having in our mind. It could be happening in the background. Exactly. I I could just experience it as sort of a discomfort. And a in an apprehension.

27:37 And um, you know, a a war how are they gonna interpret it? If if I if I raise my hand and ask that question, I'm gonna be really seen as stupid. And I'm I'm not just relaxed and able to just talk. I gotta worry and just extra worry about w w how I'm gonna be judged and what that can mean and the more important the situation again, the more important is More powerful as pressure can be. So you know, I think it of it affects this dynamic that

28:02 We're talking about affects Big live choices, you know, what neighborhoods I want to live in. Yeah word friends I wanna of how comfortable I'm gonna be in a lot of social situations. What church do I wanna join? What what clubs do I wanna be part of? Uh Uh I think a lot of the pressure for

28:22 Us winding up in social situations, uh if I can use the term here. Oh and we populated by our Our own kind. Mm. Yeah, a lot of that is explained by this dynamic. That that's where I can feel

28:38 You know, I I the pressures Oh. It's relaxed. I'm you know, going to a black barber shop. You can say anything there. I long appreciated the and you hear all kinds of views there. Um it just doesn't have the same consequence. But as soon or or maybe a better one would be this something something I

28:58 Confessed to feeling more and more of in life. Older. I'm an older guy. You know, uh so I'm and in but and in my coffee group in the mornings at Pete's coffee uh cafe. Uh it's all us old guys. So you know, we can relax about uh with each other and kinda say what's really on our minds and say we'll relax. But as soon as you bring a younger person into that such situation.

29:23 Uh oh. Maybe I could be seen in terms of Negative views of older people that you know that my views are outdated, that I'm technologically incompetent and so that puts an extra kind of tension in the in the in the air. And uh so it it it it it has this uh this role in our in our lives and and I I guess my work of the last uh decades or so has been to kind of pull that out and and show its importance in in various situations. But I I also want to hasten for the listeners' sake.

29:55 There's a very hopeful. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. I I actually uh go right ahead because you you certainly and the book uh On a on very positive notes, and and very practical notes, I would I would add as well. Uh So go ahead. How do we get to a hopeful perspective? We we might be jumping ahead, but let but let's go ahead.

30:21 Yeah, I can just we can come back to this, but But I I yes, I I mean uh in in in a phrase or two, uh Trust. between us, building trust between us is the Anecdote to this tension that we're talking about. As soon as I trust you

30:37 Uh uh I'm I forget about all these negative possibly negative ways I I could be seen because of our identity differences. Um I'm with my let's say my son comes to that group of older people. Uh well I trust him. I trust, you know, he's not gonna really judge me too badly on the basis of my age because we you know, I I I trust I know him.

31:02 He's he's got my best Interest in heart. He sees me as a full human being. Yeah. And and he's not gonna use the available stereotypes to devalue me in in some way there. And so uh uh uh out the window goes this whole tension. And and I I think that

31:20 There's a pathway. I think a lot of us have found that pathway intuitively in our real lives that we have relationships. Across Identity divides. Uh and we we have built that kind of trust where we're really comfortable.

31:33 With with each other. There are marriages across major identity divides. There are are all kinds of relationships Like that. Where where uh because you've had the time and you've had the Opportunity to see you, I can trust this person. So the you know, the the biggest part of the book is probably on h uh well, how do you do that? How do you build that kind of trust in in in these important real life settings of of our lives. And I I'd like to offer that as as uh

32:02 an underutilized, maybe underappreciated way of building a diverse society, of building a successfully diverse society is that As much as we're concerned about Eradicating and reducing prejudices. Um we can be concerned about we should f an another alternative which may be Easier and more accessible.

32:24 is to focus on building A trust with each other. And and then I talk about how to do that and how to do it at the individual level between individuals. How do you do it in a classroom? How does an how does an institution do it? Uh I I think there are are are ways of thinking about these these areas where

32:43 Where um Once you know that that's what's important. uh that that ability to trust the place. Then you kinda have a a new way of going at building a successfully integrated diverse community in these In in in the important settings of our lives.

33:01 And I could see how those models play out in corporate settings, in the many corporate settings that that I've been in as well, because it's so foundational. It's so Interpersonal. Uh and uh and and so as as you said, simple, maybe not easy, but uh but in in some ways simple. Uh. Hey Groovers, quick break from the conversation to talk about something we don't bring up enough on the show. Yeah, that's right, when we're not behind the mic, we're working with organizations to apply behavioral science in ways that actually move the needle for leaders.

33:40 Teams and whole cultures. So whether it's designing smarter incentives, boosting engagement, setting goals that actually stick, or helping teams navigate change, we bring real science to real workplace challenges. And we don't just talk theory, our approach blends research-backed insights with Hands on strategies that drive results. Now we've seen Small behavioral shifts lead to big wins in sm in Fortune 500 companies and scrappy startups and even in mission-driven nonprofits. Yeah, and we bring the same curiosity, creativity, and care to our client work that we bring to every episode of the show. Really I I think people might want more than what we bring to the show. Yeah.

34:24 You you probably have a point there. You're probably right. Okay, so we'll bring more care and creativity to our work with you and your teams than what we do on the show. Yes, more care. So So, if you're ready to build stronger motivation, better team dynamics, and maybe even make your workplace A little more groovy. Yeah, reach out to us.

34:45 Greg grab us on LinkedIn or Facebook or just drop us a line. We'd love to help you. and your team find your groove. Uh I wanted to go back also to uh uh something that you mentioned earlier, and that was you used the word colorblind. You're you're setting up that wonderful story, the parent teacher conference story at the beginning of the book.

35:07 And And And one of the questions i in in the minds of the participants Is Із за колерблин?

35:18 And first of all, can you just Explain to uh f from your perspective, from your knowledgeable and informed perspective, what does what do people mean when they s talk about I'm colorblind. You know, I Uh uh Yeah you don't have to worry about me because I'm colorblind. Yeah, or or however that gets framed. And

35:37 And what's the challenge? What are the challenges with that? Yeah, I I Uh I thought about this a good deal over the years. I I think I think when people most of the time when people say that, there they're it it really reflects the best of intentions. Yeah. Yeah.

35:53 be biased against you because of your identity. you're old or you're uh an African American or you're a white American. I I That's not me. I don't I don't have that prejudice, uh to my knowledge in any big way. And so please accept that I'm colorblind. Okay, will you please? Yeah. Uh and and I I think that many ask so it's a good i it's often a a a well intended thing. I remember in the sixties when it was a very progressive new idea.

36:20 because it was in the sixties that we really committed, in at least at the level of the law and legislation, to having a j uh a fully integrated society. Uh and one of the ideas uh well we'll do this by being colorblind. That's how we'll do this. So I I think there's a lot of good intention behind it. And I also think that in in many aspects of life it's absolutely essential. You know, we want our um access to health care and our our policing.

36:46 For example. We want those things to be colorblind. Our access to mortgage Capital. Uh we we don't want those meted out on the basis uh basis of of of identities. So color blindness in a diverse society like ours is is is an essential uh aspiration um and and uh and the like but

37:08 It it we can't overdo it. And to and use it. uh to sort of deny a person's real experiences that they're having because of their identity. So If the teacher says I'm color blind. The parents could worry that well, she's just

37:24 doesn't recognize the significance of race in our life. The the things that we've had to deal with and and continue to have to deal with. based on our identities, the kind of vigilance we have to have, the the where we live, what the opportunity structures are. They could miss all that. Uh with this notion of Of c of their being colorblind and and and so it's hard for us to trust them.

37:49 So as so as well intentioned as it is, it It could also miss sort of the core part of who that person really is. Part of the as you said, their identity, right? Exactly. It could it could miss a lot of

38:03 Their experience. Yeah. I talked about in the book that relationship between Miles Davis and Gil Evans, these two great jazz musicians that I think did some of the best jazz in the Twentieth century. Yeah. Uh beautiful music. We'll talk a little bit about that. I mean, these are because we've got Gil Evans, the thin white guy from Canada.

38:24 And we've got Miles Davis the urban black artist so in intensely cool in the fifties, sixties, uh when in in his heyday. And then got this kind of you know, stony stiff Gil Evans, who was a big band arranger. Uh yeah, yeah.

38:45 And and they end up forming a partnership that lasts decades. Yes, and become, you know, best friends. become really best friends. And uh Uh so uh I I I think what what happens is that there's so much shared commitment to artistry and recognition of each other's artistry and how they

39:08 how it could contribute to their Their aspirations. that you know they uh and they w and how how they could freely exchange this and build beautiful music together. Uh they they began to No, they came to trust each other and to rely on each other's judgment about music. And and uh it brought them together and it gave them the trust that

39:28 That that a eliminated this churn. Between them. So uh but if if Gil Evans had said, Well look, Miles, uh you know, I I'm just colorblind. I I don't see your race. Well That would have been a real

39:44 Red flag for miles because that I mean you don't see My life, my w but the experience I have in in this society. You don't you don't understand where in in big part this music comes from. And what it's what it's about is dealing with There's melancholy there's Uh deep.

40:01 uh emotions that come from the experience I have in the United States as an African American and the history that uh that I've had and the ongoing way in which race organizes society and organizes opportunity and Oh how I have to raise my children and So if if you're just gonna say that it scares me because maybe you're gonna miss A a lot of what I have to deal with and and and the like. And so

40:28 I think that's the The pres uh just put it as precisely as I as I can, I think that's the era that that colorblind is as a framework can can lead to and can interfere with With relationships then Miles would have to Oh my God, I don't think I can trust this guy. I could be careful here. Maybe I need a

40:47 Yeah, and without without trust, what what would be the foundation for really any meaningful relationship? Yeah. For any of that work they did together. Uh so so so Gil Evans clearly wasn't Wasn't blind to he he could appreciate P part of his appreciation of Miles's artistry is an appreciation of the

41:08 Life circumstances tied to his identity. from which that artistry grew and what and that's part of what that artistry meant Part of the meaning it had. And he felt Gosh, that is beautiful. Let me help here.

41:23 Let me let me throw in my My expertise and see if I can contribute something to it. So Miles sees that And trust the hell out of Gil. Evans.

41:33 And even though Gil Evans is obviously pretty square compared to the time, uh he he says, you know, my uh Gil Evans is cool, man. And and what he means is Gill Evans sees He sees us. He sees us. He doesn't deny us. He sees us. And the the

41:55 Then the the the bond is powerful. Uh and and I I think that's one of the the chief Features uh Uh in the book I talk about another example of this of of Ur Irving Goffman of sociologist who who uh did an ethnography of gay men in the nineteen fifties in San Francisco, my my town. Um into a town a time when that

42:16 That identity was under tremendous stigma. Uh and the he found that gay men Had a term for straight people Who's like Gil Evans, who saw their real Their real uh humanity and that that term was

42:31 He's wise, man. He's wise. He sees he sees us. That guy understands that we're We're full human beings. Wise and appreciate so He's wise. So Miles could have used that term for guilt. He's wise. Black people have a ton of these terms, you know, he's cool.

42:51 He's He's he he's down, man. He's down. He seeked that. I I love I mean this term. impacted you so much. It it felt like this whole second half of the book was Uh almost through the lens of wise.

43:04 And you really and an um But it again, it's just it's just one term. That is sort of the the bottom of the h of a big broad hopper of Of

43:16 you know, welcoming and supporting and and all these kinds of really important things about seeing someone. Holistically. That's a great way to put it. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great way to put it. I mean it it is It is it's foundational. It it it's the thing that you need to know. Yeah.

43:35 in that churn that you could be seen this way and seen that way. What you need to know to relax you It's it's that oh this this teacher really sees my humanity. They see the circumstances of life. They're open to those circumstances, to seeing them. They're not threatened by them, they're not resisting them, they're open to that and and they're gonna respond accordingly.

43:57 Uh and and uh you that so uh trying to get to the actual structure of what trust in this kind of context, in this diverse integrated context, means in its It's it's It's something like that where I I s I come to have I had a you know a number of teachers in my experience that I I felt uh had that toward me and it was it's transformative. Uh what uh that you're

44:24 Professor and my advisor in graduate school wasn't gonna see me as As a charity case or is a weak you know, d did he have to help me paternalistically and No, he could see that I was a a a a a human trying to Learn. Science.

44:41 And and uh and he could respond to qu he tried to help that. So I I d I do I I I uh lest we don't get to it, I sort of try to end with the with the the uh a a very simple sentence that that I think people resonate too, which is the tr the trust It is a game that is played on the ground.

45:01 This is where I'm I can be hopeful about things. It is a game played on the uh ground. It's it's who shows up. And who listens And who listens again with an eye to see seeing what you really are dealing with. in this situation. What is the challenge in this situation? And then They try to support you.

45:21 in coping with that, in coping with the specific real needs that you have. When somebody does that Toward you. You trust them. You don't care what their identity is.

45:32 They could be Can have a extravagantly different identity than you do. But if they behave that way toward you, uh bang, all these things go away. That churn it goes away. I even think I I I'd love to have more empirical evidence in its behalf at this point, but I even think prejudices die.

45:54 But you know, uh I I've heard the phrase sometimes that The prejudices don't survive proximity very well. When when we're when we're close to each other. Enough to you know, see each other and to interact. Pretty soon, you know, those prejudices just just aren't that relevant and and they kinda die on the vine.

46:13 They're they're not cognitively useful and And we they they lose their grip on us. Uh one of the one of the original sins, I suppose, in a society like ours, if I if I can call it that. uh it is is segregation is is the the the commitment to segregating us based on identities. As soon as you do that And this isn't related to related to conversation we had earlier. As soon as you you're making them behave in a segregated way, then my little brain automatically starts cooking up reasons why that makes sense.

46:46 Well that's a good thing. And those are prejudices. Those are stereotypes. I start seeing people in ways that justify that s that separation. Uh and that's where they're born. those prejudices and stereotypes for the

47:02 Uh for the most part. And and uh when when uh w but if I start to See people on a regular basis, that a lot of those players just they just get in the way and you forget about them. I've had so many relationships. I've been blessed by being able to have so many relationships like that. That I I know this is possible.

47:21 Uh and uh uh and and I this is part of what the impulse in the book is. I I talk a little bit about Obama and why he got to be elected president presidency and and um at least How how Tanahashi codes. Tana Hishi codes. Uh uh believes he got to be

47:39 President I I have a great deal of sympathy with his arg argument is that he was raised in a world in which he Had a lot of those. cross identity relationships. He knew that there were White people he could trust. So he could offer in in Coase's analysis, he could offer.

47:57 The white citizens of this country Uh something you have to offer them in order to be elected. President. But something which is very difficult for most of us African Americans to do. Which is trust.

48:09 You could say, I trust you. I believe you. Yeah. I've lived with you. I know I can I can I can hear your needs and be responsive to them. Uh and and um so here he is in a A guy with a with that name?

48:24 Barack Hussein. Uh Yeah. Yeah. Somehow people read that this guy, uh, I I can relate to him. Who grows up in Hawaii of all places. Yeah. Yeah, he goes up in his place, you know, and And uh so uh the I I think it's a very compelling analysis of of uh uh or example of of of w what what I mean by building trust as a way uh trust as a way of reducing churn and the and the divisions, the tensions that

48:54 uh that that divide us. I think it's a an extremely compelling example of that. Yeah. Um a a good political lesson for people as well. Yeah, uh although I Uh it's hard not to be persuaded that

49:11 Divisiveness seems to be working for at least one party right now. Uh that sewing divisiveness is uh is a successful political strategy. It's it's a A time worn political strategy to stir up These tensions.

49:29 Insurance. political constituency for myself. You I'm gonna say if you against those people and those what they mean to you and

49:41 Yeah, and that creates a Loyalty to me that isn't it's it's it's it's It's what Hitler did to great effect and and he didn't discover it. It's been around forever. Long time. And here we know here we are having it emerge in this in these times in a in very Uh vivid form.

49:59 Yeah. Um Not to go too far down that rabbit hole. I I there was A story that you told about uh Tim Rennick as the uh the vice provost at Georgia State University. George and And it was uh in Georgia, you talked about the Hope Scholarship and so it it's a terrific benefit to anyone who lives in Georgia that if you

50:22 The child has a three dot O G P A they go to a state school for free. Which is amazing. And um but the but the Tim Rennick saw this as a problem that if you were right at p two point nine nine nine

50:37 You You got nothing. It was an all or nothing deal. And And something that struck me a About

50:45 you the way that you told the story is that he wasn't satisfied with just leaving it like that. He did something about it. And he changed it. Uh to what is what, a two point seven five the the student still got a thousand dollars.

51:01 Yeah. But that wasn't enough. And can you pick up the story there? And tell us what What did he do? And and what what was the problem with a thousand dollars?

51:11 As as a g a g a gift. Yeah. And what did he do from there? Yeah. And and what he was doing all along is is such is so Compelling to me. I I I you know I I don't know the man. We've I've interviewed him, but I I so admire.

51:27 Uh and and and how he responded to this problem in with the hope. Scholarship that's That uh if you if you Messed up, which kids do.

51:41 Uh, and you get y you'll lose it and then oh my goodness, uh what do I do now? Um and so so he was very concerned about this. So He he first got the as you as you just described, he's he first talked the foundation into well maybe they need a little money and uh oh give'em t may y well so that they can They can pay their tuition and and earn back the grade point average that would requalify them for the for the Stay in school, just a little bit of a buffer. Hang in there Uh but what he found is basically'cause he

52:14 He he he did that. Uh how do you build trust? Uh you show up You listen.

52:22 You listen again. Uh, and you develop a strategy that really helps what they really need in the situation. He sustained that attitude and and what he found is that that basically that thousand dollars just wasn't enough. That that they they were going and putting the cost of their tuition and their living expenses on credit cards. And running up big credit card debts and then having to drop out of school in order to pay off those

52:49 Those credit card debts. And w if you're an out if you're not seeing that. If you're not seeing You would think, oh They're just

52:58 You these how much more should we do for these kids? We've already given them them the fellowship and and you know the and and what well come on. You know, how much is can society they need to learn to stay you know, they they are doing everything they can in this circumstances. But what what Rennes You know, I think moral and intellectual genius was was to Try to see the circumstances that they were actually contending with. Not to Uh uh not to just presume as an outside observer that the problem is in something about the students.

53:30 As opposed to something about the circumstances of life. that they were having to deal with in that in that circumstance. And he discovered that by by paying attention to it. Yeah. Trusting their humanity. And trusting their decency.

53:47 Um And then trying to see Uh let's before we assume that they're just, you know, neer do wells. Uh the before we assume that, let's just try to see what they're dealing with. So it's it's that step.

54:00 That I think is the big deal in building trust that will undermine churn. Uh and and uh it's such a brilliant example. uh uh of it. And that that um I I I I'm just so Inspired.

54:16 Yeah, by the well so tell us what what did he discover then after he realizes that this thousand dollars Is Is Basically failing. I don't think I'm overstating it to say that. So then then he's a little bit more.

54:32 Yeah. He he well, okay. That that's the problem, then then let's uh uh let's help them. Let's t give them some training in financial literacy. So before you get that thousand dollars, you're uh uh we're we're gonna so you understand how finances work. Before you go to your credit cards and what what and and sort of bail yourself out there and dig yourself into a hole, let's do this. Uh and maybe let's space out a little time and maybe you need maybe we need to redesign as an institution, redesign our financial aid system a little so that it can be more responsive to your acute needs, to your economic shocks that your family is are actually enduring. in this situation. So that's what they do also. They read they don't give you financial aid as a as a block grant for you to figure out what

55:20 When you need something. you you describe it to them and they try to work out a financial plan giving helping you meet those needs find financially so that you can stay in school. And that you can prosper in school. Uh so he's He's he's behaving in a way that we behave toward our own children.

55:39 With our own children. We we we don't judge them and blame them for good parents, I think. We we try to figure out what what are they what does what does my kid actually need here. Yeah. Yeah. Help them learn the lessons that they need to be successful to get through this.

55:56 And and if if if I remember the the data, right? The statistics. That under the thousand dollar support only about nine percent of the students returned to a three point oh. Because so many as you m as you noted, so many of them left.

56:11 But by But by changing up the system by requiring this financial literacy education. Was it sixty percent? Return to a three point paper statement.

56:23 Yeah. Massive. Yeah. And it it's it's just a single instance in what Georgia State as an institution has done. They they th taking this approach, they began and they got in trouble because they had this sh shockingly low gr uh uh gradu graduation rate, completion rate. Right. You know, high twenties, twenty seven, twenty eight percent for the whole school for African American American males, it was like eighteen percent. Only eighteen percent who enrolled who every horrible numbers. Yeah. Horrible.

56:53 And through this strategy Uh you know, the the the book describes the various things they did, which are I I think come right out of this understanding of things. They got that up to about sixty seven percent. And for all of the groups that go there, for the Asians, for the Latinos, for the whites, for the blacks, they all have about the same Uh a graduation rate. That's that's what made me attend to them. Well where in in society can we find an example of where All the groups are thriving.

57:23 Equally. And all the groups are participating equally in STEM fields in some of the more d you know, demanding f uh uh aspects of college. Experience. So so uh it's It's that it's it it it it It's such a

57:37 powerful example of of this uh the the term I get to at the end of the book is seeing. Trying to see the the experience, the circumstances that a a person of a different identity are actually dealing with and trying to address those. I I confess that as a as a as a an academic administrator as a provost of two universities, probably what I would have done uh is to appoint a faculty committee. Well why we got such low graduation rates and then and and the faculty committee would would would be very concerned about that problem and but we would be looking at at the at the students.

58:16 Well why are these students and we would think well th maybe they they're not mature or uh they're spoiled or they're snowflakes or their pa their their parents are helicopters and they don't know how to function on their own. that uh uh uh attribute the problem to something about them because that's who's in our line of sight as an as observers of the situation. Us sitting in our We we're thinking about the students. But if you go talk to the students, what you see the whole the whole thing expand because now what you see is the circumstances those students are dealing with.

58:52 And that's what Rennick led that university to do. And that's what led them to redefine the s restructure their financial aid to to uh bring them in early and give them financial literacy so that they would uh understand how to manage their finances across their their college careers, uh to set up an early detection. Cause I I have so much sympathy Myself for this. Reason it.

59:18 Uh I I I had to learn these things in my first year in in in in in college. Like you know, you know, I I didn't know how to study. I was then I spent ten minutes studying my French and think I was doing, you know, a wonderful job. So the roommate said, No, you're not gonna learn French. Hmm that guy saw what what was really going on there. The outside committee would probably think, well, I don't care. Well, I did care. I was depressed. And I was in high churn about that. Yeah. Uh I just I just needed to know how to deal with the cir the circumstances. And so that's what Georgia State uh did. So uh as a as a h uh, you know, uh a person in higher education, I I think we again we underappreciate uh the the strategy of of uh listening And listening.

1:00:11 It and uh exactly. beautiful takeaway from me is that Rennek Doesn't give up. He keeps listening. He keeps going back. He and then he's modifying what if it's what if it looks like this? What if it looks like this? How would this work? And then he uses data to say Here's this is where we're getting success. I think that was just fantastic.

1:00:32 He he really accomplished so much there. Because another thing is just getting institutions to change and and he he he was so effective in doing that because He used data. He didn't try to You know, make a moral argument out of it or uh

1:00:49 uh some other kind of, you know, political highly f high flown argument. He he used data. Well when we did this, this happened. And then everybody kinda Yeah. And it was it's it's it's a great story. It's a great story. And there are other examples in higher ed. I I talk about an elite university at Berkeley uh in College of Chemistry having a very similar kind of of an uh of experience. And I also think historically black uh colleges and universities have Uh uh many of them have had similar experiences because they're

1:01:20 They're dealing with students that often don't come to college with a big powerful preparation for it. But they come to the they they identify the needs of those students and meet those needs. For community, for support, for Uh help at the right time for early detection of problems and and so on.

1:01:39 I I love that. Um Claude, I promised you b before we got on that we were going to end our discussion talking a little bit about music. You said you were well prepped because you were on a board meeting this morning with the jazz society of San Francisco. Yeah, San Francisco Jazz. San Francisco Jazz Society. I love that. Okay. So so here's the question. And please don't get all turned up about this, but You're on a desert island.

1:02:06 And you've got a a single listening device and on that listening device we'll Only hold two artists. And you're on that island for a year. What two artists do you decide to put on that listening device? Okay, I'm gonna be really honest about this. First I would put Miles Davis on that.

1:02:23 list. I think you've that's a great cause. I probably won't get a lot of it. And then I'd put Stevie Wonder on that list. I th you're not gonna get any pushback on that either. Yeah. Um there's so many others I I hate to be restricted to two, as I'm sure you would be too, but but uh It's not go to the grave, it's just right now. So Yeah, it's just right now and uh I just I just Miles meant so much to me as an artist and as a African American. It was an inspiration to me because he was such a A serious artist.

1:02:56 I I think he or Coltrane used the term. Being serious is fun. And I I took that as a an approach to being a psychologist and a scientist is that being serious is fun. I think that was Miles Davis, yeah.

1:03:10 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And uh the way he handled his Is banned and and allowed such Allow them all to contribute, which contri which which made that music so rich and surprising and everlasting. is w the approach I try to take with my graduate students that You know, the I I you you don't just do what I said. We're gonna have a conversation here. And I and you

1:03:33 You what what you bring in here, we're gonna do Uh so I I feel uh uh so indebted to my my students for the kind of conversations we've been able to have over the years that most of the of the of the research all of the research that that that I've done that's had an impact, I think has benefited from From that kind of uh Um lab culture and relationship with them.

1:03:57 So Miles is means a lot to me in a as a as a model. I know he's had a complicated life and that in through certain lenses. Yeah. He wasn't always a good man. But he was a great artist and uh it at the time he meant a great deal to me. And he has a monstrous catalogue, much like Stevie Wonder. There's lots.

1:04:18 Lots of recording songs. Lots of stuff. Yeah. Uh and s and and Stevie too because he there's so much humanity in Stevie Wonder. It's just so mu you know, s it's he's just so much you know, it's both heavy. sometimes and it's light spirited other times and

1:04:35 Uh and optimistic. Um and um soulful and yet light sometimes. So anyway, those two guys I if I if I was restricted to two, that's what I'd do. I've Sauce TV Wonder in a new light when I watched the We Are the World. Uh documentary.

1:04:54 Mm-hmm. And He's so authentic and so in the moment. And at at the very end of the day, everybody's gone except except Stevie and uh uh of course the the production team. You know, so you got Lionel Richie and and uh I think Michael Jackson had already left and um But but Dylan hasn't done his solo.

1:05:18 Yeah. And Do you do you remember this scene? No, I remember this so And so Bob Dylan says I don't know how to sing this. Yeah, I don't know.

1:05:27 And Stevie says No, just do it like this. And he imitates Bob Dylan's voice and how Bob would sing it. He says to Bob Dylan, do it like Bobby Dylan would do it. Yes. And like this raw authenticity. uh this very pure spirit coming out and s and just

1:05:48 imitating Bob Dylan there. And you can just see Dylan's face just going, Oh, I get it. That's just like me. And then Yeah. That that was that was so'cause who could b who could believe that Bobby Dillman wouldn't not wouldn't know But he didn't know how to fit in that particular R and B groove very well.

1:06:11 And so Stevie Stevie sort of sees that and and uh And really helped them figure out how to do that, coached him how to do that. And earlier, this is just a funny aside, but but I think uh Ray Charles had to go to the bathroom and Stevie said, I'll show you. And so somebody said the blind leading the blind literally the blind leading the blind. Oh. Yeah. Yeah, there were many interesting things in that little documentary that were just so human. Among all all these superstars. Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:44 Totally. Claude Steele, I I so thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with you today. Thank you for being a guest on Behavioral Groups. Well my it's been my great pleasure. It's been a really enjoyable conversation. I hope it's helpful to people. Welcome to our grooving session where Tim and I share ideas on what we learn from Tim's discussion with Claude. Have a free flowing conversation. And groove on whatever comes into our churning brains.

1:07:16 Yeah. Yeah. Uh I'm just gonna say this. But

1:07:21 I'm not the hugest fan of the term churn. But it is A as you used it right here, churning brains. I mean, our brains do that. Right. It's it's this cyclical it if you're listening and you're not watching on YouTube, I'm making a circular motion with my hands. Yes, yes, it's so fun. Yeah. It it is this cyclical thing and churn is absolutely that.

1:07:45 Well, and I think there's another aspect of that, right? It is this Yeah. The the example that he uses of the Um Teacher Parent Conference.

1:07:56 Yeah. Is so Aprifo because is that the right word? I can't remember. This idea of like You know. The parents are thinking and worrying and the teacher is thinking and worrying.

1:08:09 And they're worrying about the same thing, but not the same thing. And it it it just is this this churning of of emotions and So I I'd love to hear What you think'cause this book was great and I I just really

1:08:25 Reiterate that I I did like this book. Um And uh different pieces, but In the conversation, Tim, what What did you take? What was the key

1:08:36 Peace. out of that that you are taking out. Well I I think It's a really interesting Idea that

1:08:45 Claude's thesis is that churn is going to exist. We're still going to have this internal Self doubt or just this curiosity about what this conversation is going to be like. Even

1:09:00 After The magic wand has been waved over all of society and there's no more prejudice period. Right. He kind of emphasizes this idea that it's And and th to me this sounds a little bit like the Nick Epley stuff.

1:09:14 Yeah we we don't Like we don't have the conversation with the stranger on the subway or on the train because They're gonna they're they're not gonna like talking to us. They're too different for me. They they're gonna think I'm

1:09:28 You know, being weird. Yeah. We get into this theory of mind that misreads what the other person

1:09:37 Is actually going to do. And Uh and I I think that that's always gonna happen to us. That's always gonna be present. And Course Claw's idea is

1:09:49 You know. Not to not to just ignore it. But to actually treat it and bring it to the the forefront.

1:09:55 Yeah and and and We just had a conversation with J Van Babel and we'll be we we might that might even be coming out before this. I don't I don't know, but Um One of the things that we talked with Jay about Is how social media is even providing

1:10:13 all of these examples of the negative side of this. So you you would see on Uh social media the flare up when there is conflict in maybe somebody is racially prejudiced. And it reinforces This concept that there

1:10:33 that socially we are separate and different pieces of that. And so The Nick Epley thing I think is a hundred percent right on. Yeah that we We we don't We are not very good predictors of what other people are thinking. Right. I mean that's that's just there. So yeah.

1:10:53 So What do we do? Tim. What what what H how do we use this in

1:11:01 in work or And Oh. You know, other things. Wha what what do we do? Well, I I think Claude calls out the fact that

1:11:10 we self-segregate in ways to kind of stay safe and to sort of avoid these uncomfortable conversations, to avoid the churn experience in our own minds. You know, we we go to the barber shop because we know all the guys there are gonna be kinda like us. And um And I didn't I actually didn't really become super aware of this until I moved to Charlotte a a few years ago, realizing that when I walked in to get my hair cut.

1:11:34 It was a whole bunch of people that were a lot like me. It was like Wow. I didn't hadn't really thought about that before, but it's a bunch of you know, bunch of old Old guys uh with glasses. See, I don't I've I haven't been to a barber for me in Plus thirty years. So I I don't even know that. Um

1:11:53 But Uh So so there's sort of good psychological reasons for it, but the treatment to get to your to your question isn't so much to to say, well, I don't see color. And even though

1:12:05 Claude says that's well intended. understand sort of the good intentions behind that. It actually It actually sort of minimizes someone's actual experience. And so

1:12:17 It reminds me a little bit of uh of Kimberly Crenshaw's intersectionality where we we bring ourselves, our full selves to the conversation. Be real. Just be real. Th those people that say I don't see colour, I always

1:12:31 Thought that was weird because I'm going I'm bald. I know that. Like and it's part of who I am. And so do you not see my baldness? I mean No, I don't I don't even see that, man. Or or if if I'm tall, or if I'm short, or if I'm larger or skinnier or if I have, you know

1:12:52 different facial feature. You know, we are Our our physical embodiment of who we are. Is part of us. Yeah. And the the

1:13:03 The other piece of that is there's a cultural part. from behind that. So if I talk to somebody who has an accent, do I not s not do I not hear the accent? Do I not understand that they were raised in a different part of the world from me? Um Uh no.

1:13:20 But It's the it's the negative stereotypes that go along with that that I think is there. Again, like the the I don't see color is a well intended remark to say. I I'm trying to ameliorate or soften this whole idea Of that we are Different. Right.

1:13:38 Claude kind of says hey Let's get beyond the word different and let's look for our commonalities. And this is what Miles Davis and Gil Evans did. Like these these two men of different color. coming into a a jazz session. And

1:13:54 Miles Davis is just like All I all you're here to do is is to play music. And evaluated Gill Evans not on the fact that he's As white as a sheet.

1:14:04 But on the fact that he could play. Gil Evans could just play and like Miles Davis like I want you in in my band. And they I think they collaborated for like three decades. a long time. They they played together'cause they They trusted each other and they grew to trust each other because they got to know each other. They spent time. And so

1:14:26 So what what do we need to do? What is so I mean Color I don't see color is a good intention, but that's not the cure all for this. It it Is it Is it that time do we need to

1:14:39 Be W what are the steps that we can take? Well let's start with W going way back to the seventies with Gordon Alport's uh work on uh on racial differences and so spending time with with people who are different from us makes a difference. And that's actually spending time. Not like

1:15:00 Oh, I noticed that there was someone who was different from me in the grocery store. And because we were in the same grocery store at the same time, I was spending time with them. That's not that's not what we mean, right? I think I think what Claude is advocating for is Quami Christians compassionate curiosity. Have a conversation. Learn a little bit about where they're coming from. Have do you know, uh and that's gonna reduce that churn. If I start to understand where somebody else is coming from

1:15:27 Th I might see them differently. There's at least a chance that I'll I'll see them differently. I mean it's it's great advice not just in where we're seeing, you know, racial or other differences, but just in general. I mean, it's a it's a good way to live our life. But yes, I think That's it. There you guys talked about Georgia State's Rennick. Uh.

1:15:50 Dig into that. Like this is an individual scale, but how do we raise it up to If I'm a leader of an organization, how do I Bring this in, right?

1:16:02 Yeah, and and his story was all about Listening first. You know, coming in with your ears wide open. Basically, uh not making assumptions. And

1:16:13 Getting back to our quanti Christian thing of Be compassionately curious. And When we do that and and as you said, Kurt.

1:16:22 We benefit from this In every aspect of our life, in every relationship, in my relationship with my wife, with my children. I benefit from listening first and actually taking care to just be attentive to Whatever situation I'm in.

1:16:40 Uh Yeah. I I benefit from that. Now you don't because you do it all the time. So you can I wish you can't get better than perfect. Oh, I wish. I yeah. You you are the best AI sycophant that I know here, Tim. You're making me blush. Um I don't, but Yeah, I think

1:17:01 You are really Hitting on um this this piece and if you're a leader of an organization You know, it's building that culture. Uh

1:17:12 Listening first. of not going into something With assumptions. It's it's Bringing some of this research that we've talked about from Nick Epley, but also from Claude here, as many of our other guests about how do you withhold judgment until you get a

1:17:30 Bigger, fuller picture. of what is going on. And then Moving forward. And that's hard. That's not easy. It's hard. But you can build a culture that that's the norm. And if you can build that norm into your organization.

1:17:48 Then you're gonna be better off to do that. And and it's not to say that you don't have those feelings or those concerns or those doubts in your head. Uh that's okay. That's being human. We we all have confirmation bias. We all have motivated reasoning. And You know, w the the hard part of both of those biases is that we

1:18:09 Can't recognize them. easily in ourselves, that we don't know that our brain is siphoning this information into the things that support our preheld prejudice versus or judgments or beliefs versus something that will contradict that and we're just not even realizing that'cause our brain Is is protecting us in a certain way, and that's how our brain works. And so We have to be vigilant.

1:18:34 About How we're approaching those things and putting in other ways to help us see that. And that's what leaders can do. And that's what we can do is setting up those types of Processes for ourselves and processes for our teams and our organizations. So

1:18:52 Absolutely. Okay, with that with with that, Groovers, we hope that you take a minute to go out and subscribe to our sub stack. Because It's fun. There's lots of interesting con content out there. You can get links to tracks with Miles Davis and Gil Evans.

1:19:09 Because They're fantastic. Um So yeah, that's that's that's my number one pitch. So

1:19:17 We pitch the shit. Every Time. And I'm wondering if people just turn this off at this point. Are are they just no, they're listening. They're listening. I'm No, I'm pretty sure that they're they're they're they're they're They might not turn it off, but they're definitely not listening anymore. I'm I'm I don't know. If if you are listening, let us know.

1:19:38 Like leave a comment out on our Facebook page our Behavior groups community page. Um Let us know that you're listening or or leave us a review that said, I listened, Kurt, all the way to the end and heard you. Asshole. You know, thinking that we're not listening.

1:19:56 So Yeah, there you go. All right. Yeah. Yeah, so if if you If you

1:20:03 can take anything away from this conversation with uh with Claude Steele. Just Build some trust. In the next conversation that you have, regardless of who it's with. Someone close to you, someone new.

1:20:16 As opposed to managing it from a distance. Just be real. Use your ears, start to listen, and use that this week. as you go out and find your groove.

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