The Wildest Stories of Corporate Espionage We’ve Ever Heard

0:00 All right, a sentence that has never been said before. B2B Enterprise HR software space is the most riveting, the most compelling. Espionage story you'll ever hear. I feel like this episode's gonna have to start with the Netflix like this is a Netflix original level drama. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to I'm put my all in it like my day's all on the road less travel never look

0:28 We gotta do this story. Parker Conrad. Who is the CEO of a company called Riplink. They do like Payroll. As well as

0:37 other kind of back office stuff for for startups. Tweeted came out two days ago and said Rippling sued deal today. Our lawsuit alleges that deal cultivated a spy at Rippling. It orchestrated a long running trade secret theft, the spy search deal in our system twenty th twenty three times a day on average. Letting him spy on deal's own customers who were considering switching to Rippling and then he Post screen shots.

1:02 of the lawsuit. Did you read this? Yes. And we should preface this saying I think you have friends at deal. I'm an investor in deal. So I invest in deal many years ago. It's one of the best investments. I really like Alex. I don't know him super well, like we're not like buddy buddy, but like Alex, the founder of Deal, I think is awesome. And uh I use deal. I think deal's a great product. And so that's kind of my con my bias and context coming in is I like deal and I invest in deal. And when I did everything everything here, it's allegedly and it's also this is just what the the lawsuit says. And also it's just comedy for me. Like I don't I I don't know about any of this and I am just like everybody else on Twitter, this is for entertainment for me. So uh please don't take this too seriously.

1:45 What's the baseline story? Okay, so basically the story is Rippling notices he's he's saying we noticed somebody was looking up deal a lot in our systems. So then This is where it gets good. He's like

1:58 So we created A honeypot. The best. The what the the the story behind this is basic like I don't I wouldn't even be smart enough to come up with the idea of this. This is amazing. So the way it worked was I think I read that it was Rippling's founder. And their legal team and maybe one other executive were in a room one night

2:19 Dudeal is spying on us. What is going on? How do we catch them? And they said how did they know they were spying? Like that they just noticed on the logs this guy was searching deal a lot. That sounds so crazy. Yeah. So there's always there, you know, no matter how thin a pancake, there's always two sides. That's what my dad always tells me. So I don't know. We but we only that's a good one, right? Yeah. We only know this side. So this side is that they had a suspicion And then they're sitting there one night and they go

2:46 I got it. Let's make a screenshot or let's actually make a fake Slack channel that no one at the company knows about. And we're gonna call it Deal Defectors, meaning all of Deal's ex employees who now work at Rippling, they're talking trash about Deal and they're spilling the beans. Turns out that was a channel that no one At the at the Rippling was a part of, but they emailed the deal team and they go, This exists and you would love to see it. And then the next day after setting the letter, they notice someone tried to log in to this deal defector's Slack channel. And that seems strange, since the only people who know about this. our deals, three people on their executive team.

3:25 And Ripling's three person executive team, and it wasn't us Ripling, therefore it had to be one of the deal executives who knew about this espionage and spying situation and had access to the back end of Rippling's login. Is that right? I think that's right. So that's allegedly what happens. So they go to the local authorities, because I think this has happening in Ireland, by the way. Like he's working at the Ireland off the the Dublin office. And they go to local authorities, they get like whatever the the ability to kind of like subpoena his phone.

3:54 So that so I guess what happened is Person comes in, says Hey You've been served, you need to hand over your phone. Right now. And he says Oh, it's upstairs in my bag.

4:05 Like, all right. Let's go get it. So they go up. They look in the bag, just a laptop and there, no phone. And they're like, um

4:12 Okay, where's the phone? He's like, I gotta go to the bathroom. So then goes to the bathroom, locks himself in the bathroom real quick, and then the story goes Um the the person heard him doing something, quote, doing something on his phone, and he's shout knocking on the door, basically shouting at him like, hey, if you if you delete anything on that phone, you're in violation of the law. The story goes that the spy goes That's a risk I have to take. He said that? That's a risk I'm willing to take. He said that? So then they hear a flush.

4:50 They hear a flush. And then the guy flees the premises. They don't get the phone. And then Rippling orders somebody to go check the plumbing. Of the building.

5:00 To see if he flushed a phone couldn't find a phone in there. Uh no phone. And so that's that's where the story stands today. And then that's why they came out publicly. And tried to like, you know.

5:11 win this in the in the court of public opinion instead. Can I give three p little bits of t advice to anyone listening? Um If you're ever gonna get in trouble, one Don't say shit.

5:21 Do not say that's a risk I'm only to say. Don't say anything. Just say, uh, yeah, I don't want to talk or give me a lawyer. The second thing, don't write down anything that you'd be afraid. For uh to be Found in discovery. And three, do not delete messages when you think you're in trouble. That's against the law. Dude, I don't know if I don't know if any of this is true. Uh there's a whole bunch of back and forth. So here's the here's a bit of the other side of the story. So Uh I think someone from Deal came out and here's what a deal spokesperson said.

5:50 Weeks after Ripling is accused of violating sanctions law in Russia. And seeding falsehoods about deal. Ripling is trying to shift the narrative. With these sensationalized claims. We deny all r legal wrongdoing. And look forward to asserting our counterclaims.

6:05 Alright, I too look forward to them asserting the counterclaims. You know what's funny is I lived in San Francisco and I was a so the guy who started Rippling, I was a customer, his name is Parker Conrad. Parker previously started ZenFits and back in thirteen or fourteen or fifteen, that era I think Zenith was the fastest growing company ever. I think it grew to like a hundred million in revenue, something insane. And Parker, from what I remember

6:33 He got fired by the board because Zenifits was like a payroll and benefits company, which means you need to be pretty uptight. And I think that he was accused of being a little loosey-goosey. Like it was like people were uh I if I remember correctly, the articles were like people at the parties were like having sex in the hallways or something insane like that. And like I don't think that was the Well maybe that was happening, but I don't think that was the the issue that got him. No, that wasn't but but that was like a canary in the cult. It was like, dude, this guy like he does it like not everyone has their health benefits license, something some license like that that you need to sell benefits. I guess in order to like be a broker, a licensed broker. You had to have it in like all every state that you were operating in. There's what it was there's a bunch of compliance things. And what he would what had happened was

7:18 Either some people didn't have it or Uh, there was another thing which was he had created a macro, like a piece of software that would just take the tests for you. Yeah. So you could like speed through this and get your license like way faster to keep up with the growth and like kind of like you didn't actually do it yourself. And I think that's when he got in a lot of ch trouble. And he's got again in this case, you know, like basically he got ashamed. He got kicked out of the company. David Sachs took over. David Sachs who was his COO and big investor. I think Sachs had put in like ten or twenty million dollars of his own money into the company and then came in as COO because it was like The next big hot startup. And then this came out and then Saks basically threw Conrad under the bus. But they use like the these guys are partying, they're banging in the hallway. They just made it look like the whole thing was a mess, whatever. Yeah. And then um

8:03 And and and he said took over and he he got basically the shaft. And then Rippling was sort of his revenge company. But uh yeah, this guy finds himself in some drama. Uh I guess. Parker likes to party. Parker Parker's put in the PA at party. I mean he's like he likes to get down. And now I'm hearing about I didn't know about this Russia stuff. So Parker lives lives life on the edge. And uh you know, he's kinda the bad boy the HR SaaS industry. What can what you know, what can he say? He needs to go Jensen leather jacket. Pure snake skin. The bad boy of HR S here. I like Parker. Parker parties, man. Like he just he gets down. He he always finds himself in a sticky situation. Sign me up.

8:47 Uh Parker should come on to to M FM and we should go hang out. Uh but this guy likes to party, you know? Alright, so A lot of uninformed speculation here. I feel like we're gonna get hit with a hit with a lawsuit or soon. Like that slander? Parker's ring doorbell has shown him to be home before eight PM every night. Does Parker does the man in the polo at Jeez not like to get down? We we deny these allegations. All right, so okay, whatever. So there's the deal rippling thing. There's a bunch of funny tweets about this. Um

9:25 It's just good comedy. I have actually a different angle here. I don't know if you have anything else you want to say on this, but I have a different angle, which was Got me thinking. What are some other great examples of corporate espionage in history? And I have some for you, Sam. Oh, okay. Cool. I I like that.

9:39 All right. So so check this out. I went down a little rabbit hole. And I tried to find, you know, examples of great corporate corporate espionage. Um, cases that have happened in the past. I wanna start with the British East India Company. Okay, are you prepared for this? So um

9:59 Basically back in the day, we're talking about like the eighteen hundreds. The British East India Company basically it was a trade pro it was a tr a trading company between The UK and India. Okay. And they did two notable things. One, which is

10:13 Unrelated to corporate espionage. Did you know they had their own corporate army? Well, I know that they were like the the the ballers of the of the earth. They like started in like sixteen hundreds and like uh basically like help shape global trade. So They were so prolific that like other parts of Europe, like basically they were attacked other trade routes and there was like a lot of security concerns. So they formed their own.

10:34 Corporate military. Which is Pretty badass. And I think if I'm perplexity or something like that. If I'm like the third or fourth tier AI company right now. might just spin up a corporate military just to put some shine on me and what I'm doing, make it seem like I got some trade secrets that I need to protect. Like just armed guards run going through Soma. It'd be amazing. Yeah, I think that every company needs like a fake enemy or a fake uh emergency to prepare for. I think it's good for them.

11:01 It's like when I used to be in college and um we would go out and Yeah, I'd be at the bar and just A lot of strikeouts going on. You know? Pretty low batting average, pretty low slugging percentage. Taking a lot of L's. What what was your call the pro chop it?

11:18 Yeah. What was I calling to go shop? Okay, here we go. Ready? Uh just turn around. I'll be the girl. I'm gonna be the girl. You feel but Yeah, so I was taking out this guy. Wait, hold on. Wha what what is this?

11:33 Oh, you didn't want to grind? Oh shit. No. Okay, my bad. Totally thought you wanted to grind. That was it. The mistake grind with the immediate apology stick. That was if it was on the dance floor. Alright, if we're not on the dance floor, if we're at the bar, ready? Yeah, so I'm just turned around. I'm looking over here. Just hanging out. Hey.

11:57 Yeah. Do they do they do drinks here? Just think it is a question. That was it? Mine used to be uh Hake Subabet.

12:09 How many oceans are there? Five or seven. Mm-hmm Oh wow, that's great. Uh this was I'm talking about pre-reading the book The Game. Once I read the book The Game, then it was uh

12:19 Hey, you gotta you guys gotta settle an argument here. And I just literally ripped the line from the book where it's like My roommate's girlfriend is making him throw all the pictures of his ex girlfriend uh in his apartment Is that crazy or

12:33 Is she w we think she's crazy. Is that crazy? And they're like, No, you gotta get rid of that And it's like oh Do you want to be my girlfriend? No? Okay, never mind. Do you know what the worst line is, is when I would steal all of the lines from the game and then one out of ten times a woman would reply and say Yeah, I read the game too, you douche. And it was just like you go home so sad. That was the worst. I would have thought that worked. We have so much in common. We love the same books. I didn't have that turn shit into gold type of persona back then.

13:05 You know, I was a reason I was single for Like Not just all four years of college, but even two years after college. Like it was it was a long drought. I felt like the British East India Company just bought through the drought. That's not exactly a drought, because the drought implies that that's not normal. I guess it's just a desert. Well what are some other ones. Wait, by the way, have you ever done this with a company? What, corporate espionage? Do you think I'm cool enough to do that? Like my uh my extent of it was like having a friend at Facebook.

13:44 And them like telling me like what my competitors are doing. Uh I've been there done that a few times. Yeah, yeah. No, I I've never done anything this cool, I don't think. Um But you know. Okay, I gotta tell you this British East India company story. All right, so back in the day

14:00 China had like a monopoly on tea production. And this was a big problem. Tea was super popular. China made all the tea. And um nobody could figure out how to make the tea. Nobody had the like the seeds, nobody had any of the stuff you needed to like try to break that. So they were all trading with China to get tea. But they didn't have anything Trade back with China, so there was these huge trade imbalances. And

14:22 So Basically Britain, I think was trading like opium into to China as this only thing it could get into China. And China didn't like that. And it created what was called the first opium war. And so there's literally a war broke out because of this trade imbalance with the T. And so what happens is the British decide to to do something about this. And so let me tell you this uh story real quick. So The East India Company, the British East India Company.

14:47 Hire this guy named Robert Fortune. He's a Scottish botanist and adventurer. And they paid him, they were like, You are going to infiltrate China. And you were gonna steal the tea industry secrets. Of China. And by the way, Google a picture of this guy because I don't know how he pulled this off. He looks like a Scottish man.

15:06 But he disguised himself as a Chinese merchant. And went underground. He was wearing Chinese clothing, Chinese hairstyle. He traveled deep into China's T region, which is actually off limits to foreigners. And he was able to get access in and he studied tea production step by step. Everything from planting, harvesting, drying, packaging, all of it. He didn't just observe. He was able to collect thousands of tea plants, seeds. This guy was supposed to be Chinese. This guy was supposed to be Chinese. I don't know how he did it, but it was like me. Exactly. He not only that, then he started recruiting like a like turning other people. So he started recruiting Chinese tea growers, hiring them and persuading them to leave China secretly and relocate to India.

15:52 And basically he pulled it off. He goes and he steals the trade secrets, he hires the tea growers, he smuggles them out of the country, he brings the seeds, the tools, the knowledge, the trade secrets, he gets to India. And they start growing tea, and f soon after that, India surpassed China. In terms of its tea production, broke the Chinese monopoly on tea, and prevented future wars. Actually de-escalated the conflict because now There wasn't this huge trade imbalance on opium problem.

16:20 That's insane that this guy pulled this off. How long was he in China for? Uh I think this was like a multi year thing. How uh exciting. That's a life worth that's a life worth living. Let me give you some other ones. All right. So now let me give you a more modern example.

16:33 Oracle versus Microsoft. Have you heard this story? No. All right. So two giants, two successful companies. Uh Microsoft, if you remember in the nineties was doing antitrust cases. And Bill Gates, there's videos of this on YouTube. He's like in depositions and they they just were getting hauled in front of

16:50 Um the antitrust committees and they had to defend themselves. So he was being accused of a monop uh monopoly. Monopolistic behaviors. And this really was a problem for Microsoft. It slowed them down. There's I think it's called like the lost decade, where basically like for a long period of time, Microsoft couldn't acquire companies. They couldn't like If something got hot, they couldn't release a competitor and kinda use their distribution to win. 'Cause they had just gone through this like, you know, antitrust problem. Deadly low. Exactly.

17:16 And so M Microsoft, uh, while it's in this uh this this situation, Oracle hires all these private investigators to go and dig up dirt on Microsoft during this period of time. And it gets found out.

17:31 But what they were doing was pretty smart. Instead of digging up dirt on Microsoft They were going to all these other companies that were supposed to be independent, like they were kind of coming out and providing like testimonials or testimony uh in support of Microsoft. And it was like oh this independent council like the uh The independent uh the independent institute, the national taxpayers union, they're coming out in support of Microsoft here. And Larry Ellison from Oracle's like

17:54 Nah, no way. And so Oracle hires these private investigators to go dumpster diving. And so they're digging through the trash. Of these of these independent organizations finding links where they got paid by Microsoft. And they get caught. They get caught doing this. But they also caught that Microsoft funded these organizations. And so they go to Larry Ellison and he's like, Look, I had nothing to do with this.

18:17 I wasn't made aware of it till the end. Um, and I agree this was a bit unsavory. Because Uh he goes corporate espionage. This is a public service.

18:27 We're doing our civic duty here. We are taking hidden information about how Microsoft was funding these supposed independent orgs, and we are making it public. We are we're doing We're doing God's work out here and just calling it public service and his s doing his civic duty, I thought was a incredible spin. Uh the other day. Uh an Elon Musk interview. In an Elon Musk interview. Someone asked him, I think it was like Ted Cruz was like, Who do you you know, you're a lot of people think you're smart. Who do you consider smart?

18:55 And the first person he said was Larry Ellison. You all said that? Yeah. He goes he goes, Larry Elson. He goes, I think Larry Elson is one of the smarter people I work with. He said, Uh you remember from Forrest Gump where he says uh Stupid is is stupid does.

19:09 Eli goes, smart is as smart does. Uh so he took he took the inverse of that line, which I thought was pretty funny. Smart is is is smart does, and I think Larry Ellison might be the smartest person I know. Uh and so it's pretty funny that I didn't Up until Larry kinda got a little bit more front facing with some of these things, I didn't I regarded him as like uh just a guy who he kinda w just started early and became the best. I didn't realize how

19:36 Sharky, not necessarily a bad way that he actually was though. Yeah, how elite he is. Um wow, that's amazing. Elon, I think, took some of his spin. Remember when he like He impregnated that woman who works with him and he was just like Underpopulation is the biggest crisis we face. Turned it into I'm saving the planet. Yeah and I was like, whoa. Player with no R at the end, man. That is that is incredible. Like can you imagine having the balls to just to just

20:08 Come out and not just defend it, not deny it. But to claim that you're doing good. That's incredible. In high school when you're sit hanging out with your buddies smoking weed late at night and you're just like riffing and saying the dumb shit you're gonna do in the next morning when you're sober. Like we're gonna go, dude, we're changing out. We're gonna get up and we're gonna like we're gonna start working out first thing in the morning. That's like a thing that Elon would say. It's like Hey, like don't you think it's kind of inappropriate, you know, she works with you She's an executive company. Maybe there's an imbalance of power here. Like are you concerned about this at all? He's like, I'm concerned about underpopulation. Nick Cannon just like writing notes out there. All right. Here's some other ones. Um Coke first Pepsi. Did Nick Cannon just

20:52 Catch a straight bullet on that one? Yeah. He's like the icon for the dude. Say it so, not in the canon. So uh two thousand and six, Coke vs Pepsi, another you know, deal rippling, Microsoft Oracle Coke Pepsi. These are all just like the legendary rival rivalries. So An EA at Coke who's disgruntled, this woman, Joya Williams. Decides you know what? Screw it. She leaves her post as a as a EA.

21:20 And she steals basically some trade secrets. She takes a new a can of their new product that's unreleased. And she writes a letter to Pepsi and she says, I have the formula Coke. Do you want the secret formula? And I have a new unreleased product. She sends a letter and she says, I'll give you the formula.

21:37 For a price. Guess what her price was? A hundred grand, a million, I don't know. One point five million dollars. And what year? Two thousand and six. All right, so it's about three million dollars today.

21:48 Pepsi. Being the good guy that it is. Says you know what? Not doing it. They

21:54 Tell Coke, they say hey. You have this woman, she's trying to sell your formula. We don't want it. Tail let's me, you and the FBI, let's take this woman down.

22:03 And what they do is they set up a sting operation. And so she uh comes out and she's ready to sell a formula. They do a test payment for four thousand dollars to show that they're legit. They record her. saying what she has and that she's doing this trade. And then they lock her up, they arrest her, and she goes to prison for eight years. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Wow, that's a lot.

22:26 Maybe like a week. Yeah. Maybe like maybe a few months. Dude. Pepsi, you guys suck. Maybe promote her. I don't know. Eight years in prison seems like it was a lot for that. So yeah, she she got made an example out of. That's crazy. This was like a recent story. Two thousand and six. So it looks like her boyfriend was like uh also in on it. Like they like this was like a this was like a legit scheme. Yeah, that sucks. I like when I hear Joya I think of like an old woman who's like

22:59 Oh, Coke, you didn't give me a raise. I'm gonna get back. You know what I mean? Like I think that there was more to it. Um Alright, that's crazy. What do you think about Pepsi turning down the secret formula and the trade secrets? And deciding to take her down.

23:13 Because what are you gonna do with that? Pepsi's like What am I supposed to do? Make my taste like Coke Sugar. Yeah. Like Yeah. Like I Like I don't know what you expect me to do with that with that'cause like the secret or the the whole thing with Coke is that like only a few people have access to it. I don't who the fuck knows, dude that there's no way that's true, by the way. L let me give you a couple other quick ones. Uber and Waymo. Do you remember this one? You probably remember this. Uh yeah, the the main character of Waymo

23:43 Stole a bunch of stuff from Google? And Uber was going to use it and now Uber got sued. Yeah, so exactly. So Basically uh Anthony Lewandowski.

23:54 was this guy who worked at Waymo. And Travis Klanick recruits him to Uber, wants him to set up the autonomous driving stuff at Uber. He comes from he was at Waymo, which is the autonomous driving thing inside of Google. He apparently downloaded fourteen thousand confidential files on the way out.

24:13 Maybe a bit much. Maybe a little too many. Two eight files and could have got away with a little less. They uh they they have the the info. He ends up getting fired from Uber Uber has to settle. Uber settles for point three four percent of Uber.

24:27 that Google owned, which is about two hundred fifty million dollars of stock back in twenty eighteen. Which I think is Closer to a billion dollars now. Of of Uberstock. And he had to go to prison for eighteen months. Um, but then Trump pardoned him.

24:40 Trump pardoned him uh early and so he got out. Why? He didn't want him to serve all eighteen months, I guess. Well, I understand that's why uh part of it exists. Only once a year'mouth. So where's he now? Uh question. Like I wonder is he like uh damage goods or is uh surely not. Like uh some some VC was like, dude, I don't care.

25:05 Then you're like Martha Stewart, you're now cooler. He's the CEO of Pollen Mobile. Has been for three years. Don't know what that is.

25:13 Okay, these are great stories. Uh I'm I'm in on it. Do you want to hear something that's related to security? And also I think is almost equally exciting. Yeah. Wait, wait, before we finish, I just have one more little tidbit. The US

25:27 This is actually baked into the DNA of the United States. I don't know if you know. Espionage. Corporate espionage. And so America's founding father and first US Treasury Secretary, Alexander Hamilton. decided that basically realized that the U uh Europe was ahead of the US and actually decided to int encourage intellectual piracy.

25:47 Doesn't all crime sound better when you just give it like a like a longer Like more letters. Make it better make it sound better. And so what he said was He advocated to reward those who would bring improvements and secret of extraordinary value into the United States. Which made which was instrumental in making the US a safe haven for industrial spies. And they did. This guy, Samuel Slow. Samuel Slater, my boy. I love Samuel Slater. One of the greatest stories of all time. So he brought British textile technology to the US? What does that mean? They claim well sort of actually. They claim he was like had a photographic memory. This is like the story that you're told as a kid, like in history class, which is that he had a photographic memory, but basically he was from

26:26 From England and he memorized and partially wrote down how factories in England worked. He came to America and he helped reinvent uh American factories, which spurred the industrial revolution, which arguably made America what it is. Are we pro espionage? I think I might be. Um so By the way, this guy's nickname Top five nickname, do you know Samuel Slater's nickname? No. Slater the traitor. Yeah, that's what they called him in the UK. Yes. But he was like welcome with open arms here. So yes, Samuel Slater is sort of an American hero.

27:02 That's crazy. At the age of twenty one, so he literally prison breaked it. He m photographically memorized uh all these trade secrets and then came to America and gave it to us and spurred the industrial revolution and made America great again. Well maybe great for the first time. Yeah, for the first time. Make America great for once. Yeah. Those hats are out of style. That's actually pretty funny. Yeah, he made America great. Um I have another story. So

27:31 Last year we the the there's two parts of the story. Last year we talked about this company, Wiz. Wiz is a cybersecurity company. To most of our listeners, we mostly talk about small business stuff. These guys are not that. They're enterprise cybersecurity company. But it has two amazing components. So one part of the story that you talked about, and by the way, these guys whiz, remember when we did Ceres list, they were on Ceres list. So We we we kinda uh we didn't exactly nail it because it was uh yeah, a little pat on the back. I don't know if the mic picked that one up. Because they were already like kicking ass and I don't know what the multiple was on when we named them, but it was at least double. But there's two amazing stories about this. The first is how fast they grew. I wanna like show you how fast they grew. But before we talk about how fast they grew, we gotta talk about how they started. And you talked about this. Oh yeah. Where they got they got bought for thirty two billion dollars. Sorry.

28:28 So this company, um, Wiz is getting bought for thirty two billion dollars. The story of how they started is amazing. The story of how fast they grew, also amazing. Uh it just happened the other day. But listen to this. So You I think are the one who brought this up. D were you the one who talked about the uh this guy Gilly? Yes. So Gilly is a uh Israeli um

28:47 cybersecurity veteran. So he's exited a few companies in the cybersecurity space. Uh and he was also part of this elite group of cybersec security specialists uh in the m Israeli military called eighty two hundred, I believe it's called. And he invented CAPTCHA. He invented like a certain type of firewall. He invented a lot of shit he's an OG. The like the OG's OG in in cybersecurity. And so he has this thing, I believe it's called Cyber Starts. Yes. You can call it an incubator or a V C firm. But here's how it works. So he teams up with a lot of young ex military eight.

29:23 uh eighty two hundred. I I think that's eight two zero zero is the name of the uh part of the military where it's the cybersecurity specialist. So you leave that uh after you finish your compulsory service and you go to Gilly, you go Gilly. Sign me up, I want to start a company. And so what Gilli has done is he has this fun And in the fund. is uh dozens or even hundreds, I believe, uh uh cybersecurity officers at large

29:49 Companies. Not just Israeli companies, but America companies. And what they do, these cybersecurity officers is Yeah. They say, here's the here's the problems I need solved, Gilly. Go so go have your young founders create products to solve these problems, and I will be your first customer. And Gilly goes to these founders and goes, Guys, I'm gonna invest in your company. Here's the idea to get you started. I guarantee you two million revenue in the first year. And that's amazing because these companies will sell or uh get They they can raise their next round of funding at twenty times. two million in revenue. So with two million in revenue in the first year, they can raise money at a forty million dollar valuation. That's a no brainer now what's pretty controversial is these CISOs, these chief information officers at these companies are well what's a CISO, a chief uh chief information and security officer. Information.

30:34 They Own pieces of Gilly's fund. And any time one of these startups does well and succeeds. They get they get paid out. It's so it's this very insular group of a lot of Israeli guys, so they have that bond over that. They have the bond over being Jewish and they have the bond that they probably all came from a very similar part of the Israeli army. So there's just like bond after bond after bond. And they're like, Yeah, look, we'll help you, we'll get you off the ground, and then we're gonna get the money just it just flows around nicely. And so that's what he did with these guys uh whiz. And isn't that a crazy setup? It's amazing. So

31:08 I'm gonna read you this. The numbers from the from his Cyberstarts Fund are phenomenal. This was It's about six, seven years old now. It only has twenty two companies, but the twenty two companies combined value was thirty five billion at the time. Now Wiz just sold for thirty two billion itself. So it says Five of the twenty two are unicorns.

31:26 That's it. Extremely high hit rate. So you know a normal V C fund. I think between one and three percent of the companies will become unicorns. Y C which is

31:37 Yeah, the best in accelerator. In the world ever. I think their their number's between six and ten percent. And so This guy's like

31:46 Double Y C. Right. Uh so five of the twenty two are unicorns. Um Four of them sold in the last twelve.

31:54 Uh for a total of one point five billion. And then it says In all three of his funds he shows an IRR, so his his internal rate of return. Of more than a hundred percent. Which is obviously Fantastic. Um

32:08 Not a single company in the portfolio has closed to date. And he's ba he basically beats every V C fund in terms of his performance. His first fun. He turned fifty four million dollars into one billion dollars. That was his stake. Yeah.

32:23 Crazy. You describe the model well. So basically he's got this network of CISOs. And they're called the the Cyberstar Cyber Cyberstarts like CISO group. And they basically all talk, they say what problems they have, but they also get pitched solutions, and it's like kind of the handpicked solution. They all start using it, they all have a share in the in the fund. So if those companies take off, they win. It's this kind of like

32:47 I mean, there's definitely a conflict of interest with this, let's be clear. Um, but it's Wow, what a powerful network and what a way what a powerful way to use a network. You know, like uh James Courier came on the podcast. Uh I just did an interview with him. I don't think it's out yet. But um

33:03 He's got this whole thing his fund is called Network Effects and his he has his blog post called your life on network uh your your your life on network effects or your life is a network effect. And it's basically like Everything you do from the college you choose, you're not just choosing a school, you're picking a network to join. Like I joined the Duke Alumni Network when I picked Duke. Right. Um when you move to San Francisco, you're picking a network of people to join. Uh, when you pick a company, you're picking a network of people to jo uh to of people to join and those are gonna be the coworkers and future opportunities that that open up for you.

33:33 And so once you realize like your life is dictated by networks, you're the church, the religion you're in, that's a network. The language you speak, that's a network. The country you live in, that's a network. And so similarly here This is like such a powerful example of This guy having This network dating back to the Israeli

33:50 Kind of like security intelligence groups. Two The network of You know, Fortune five hundred CISOs.

33:58 How valuable that is, that network turned out to be worth Tens of billions of dollars. And it's pretty amazing. He he's so precise about this. So look at the first YouTube link that I posted in our MDB doc. So basically there's this video. That has four hundred or eight hundred views. Less than a thousand. It has uh five hundred and twenty eight views. Do you see that five hundred and twenty eight view video?

34:23 In this video, he breaks down where he says, he goes, I've done this Thirty five times. I have a nine to eighteen month journey that I use to achieve product market fit before building any cybersecurity company. And he goes through the key phases, which is basically like exploring different pain points and how to find them. Uh you spend seven months developing the right solution that mere mortals can use. And then here are the questions that you need to ask prospects. Here's how you find prospects. What a great find. Only five hundred views. On this guy who's given out like you know, like a billion dollar playbook.

34:59 And he goes, he talks about how he's gonna you wanna accelerate the timeline and what the benchmarks is. He gives this whole playbook that he uses and he goes, I've I've done this thirty five times and we've turned this into billions of dollars. It's it's incredible. Now Well here we are with Wiz. So Wiz was founded by a guy named uh what is his first name? Um Asaf. Is it Asaf? Or uh his last name's uh Rappapore. Um But he basically had a company that he had previously sold for something like three hundred and fifty million dollars. And he did it when he was like a kid still. So when you think what someone does it does that, well, why on earth are you gonna join this thing? Well, he did join this thing and he left Microsoft and even explains he's like

35:38 He sold his company Microsoft and he left and he's like, I'm afraid to leave Microsoft, I'm not sure what to do. So he joins this thing and listen to the timeline. That he that Wiz went through. So Wiz was founded in the When you say he joined this thing, he joined what? Gilly's Cyber Starts, sorry. Oh he joined Cyberstarts okay. He joined Cyberstarts, uh Gilly's thing. And he uh starts the company in uh January.

36:00 of two thousand and twenty. And they go through the and because he was already successful and he was part of this gilly crew right out the bat. They raised$21 million in funding, and they're able to hire a team of 10 to 20 people by December of that first year. They raised a hundred million dollars. So fast forward one year. to uh March. So we're still in winter of two thousand twenty one. That's one year after founding they're only at forty employees, but they are at roughly one hundred million dollars of AR.

36:32 Is that crazy? So that's breakneck speed, right? Like this is By the way, there's a lot of We do this, but there's a lot of people who are like Dude, venture money. Don't don't raise too much money. You know, growth, growth, growth. It's a it's a problem. You know, you got a bootstrap, you got a uh

36:50 Yeah, people. There's different ways to win. This is a great example of like No, raise a bunch of money out the gate. Call uh blitz scale this thing and keep raising money and just go for the huge prize.

37:04 And and I'm gonna and I have like a takeaway on that, but two years after the starting the company, we are now in winter of 2021, they raised two hundred and fifty million dollars at a six billion dollar valuation. This is a handful of months after they've already reached a hundred million in revenue with 40 people 18 months in. Now we're in the year two thousand twenty two. This is the second year of business. Uh they are at uh uh I believe that yeah, second year of business. They're at a hundred employees and by the end uh uh by the end of that year they're at four hundred employees. Now we're gonna fast forward each year. Here's how fast they grew their revenue after a hundred million in revenue. By year three, they're at two hundred million in in revenue. By year four they're at five hundred million in revenue. And by uh that same year they're they sell for thirty two billion dollars. Is that insane. How on earth can you imagine going zero

37:53 To five years in. And you're creating sp between five hundred and a billion in in revenue. With only like five or six hundred employees in that. I was watching a clip of um their CRO talking and he was like We were growing so fast. That the only reliable benchmark we could use for how much to grow our headcount on our sales team Was just

38:14 Uh, he's like, Wait, they're they're like, Did you use um you know, like pipeline leads, kind of like how did you did you do market analysis, market studies? He goes, we just looked at how full the calendars were. It's basically like for every product line in every category, we just looked at how Like the the calendar density of all of our sales reps. And in areas where the calendar density was high, we knew that area is working, hire more people, just hire more people based on the density. And we measured our calendar density of sales reps to for booked calls for people looking for demos. And um that's how they knew that that that was the only reliable leading indicator they could figure out.

38:50 For for growth. And if you look at their Glassdoor review, the CEO has like people rave about him and like you could say, Well, I don't know, is Glassdoor even accurate? I'm not sure. You're the only dude who looks at Glassdoor. You're the uh they have one web visitor a month and it's you. Man, I'm telling you, you can get so much insight. So if you go to Glassdoor, you sort by negative and you look at the neg negative reviews and then you look at the positive reviews and the truth is in the middle. And I'm telling you, you can g learn so much information about what people are complaining about. Did you ever were you ever on Glassdoor with any of your companies?

39:23 Like was the fuss on Glassdoor? Yeah, and I didn't look because the only people that left reviews were the people I fired. Correct. And do you think that they had an accurate view of like the company? Well, it's an accurate view of the people who disliked me. Like so but but there's like there's like so like what I I don't even wanna read it, but what what's it say? Does it say or do we have a

39:44 I don't know if we have one anymore because we haven't been in business for like independently for years. They could have shut it down. But like It was probably like the management is good, but the CEO like moves too fast and like is not communicating well, which is like probably true. Too handsome, too j too ripped, moves too fast. Well like I would like make decisions like I'm like intimidatingly smart. Th I would like make decisions quickly and I would just say this is what we're doing now and I just wouldn't like communicate with my managers. I would just say, This is it. I just can't believe you like reading the n the reviews of whiny employees of other companies. I just like what

40:17 What do you really get out of it? Like it reveals so much truth. Like it could it could say like uh that thing you said is true about like every Company, you know, like Yeah, but like CEO likes to move fast. It could be like l let's say there's this new startup. And um it says like, you know Uh the market like

40:36 Like uh we were can s we were gonna do like a better up. Uh you know what better up is it's like a coaching platform for before Hampton, we were thinking about getting into that and I read the reviews of better up and the reviews were like uh business boom during COVID, but now we can't get anyone to sign up for online coaching. So that's like an interesting like macro insight into the market of coaching. Like it boomed during Covid. I like that. And so and so you'll see that on like four different coaching platforms glass door reviews. Or like uh, you know, our valuation, if you see this in like five different ones, is way too high. I have no idea how we're ever going to grow in this. That's not something that you want to see on four different glass doors of companies in the same industry. So you get like insights like that. Or it could be like uh CEO's amazing at press. Don't believe everything you see. And if you see a bunch of those, then I think to myself, uh, I've been like basing a lot of my insights off of uh public articles. I don't know if I should actually do that. Do you know what I mean?

41:29 Yeah, I just I I personally wouldn't do like you know I personally wouldn't trust it because I think you're gonna get A lot of Basically false negatives. Um, in this that would spook you. So for example

41:40 But did you ever work at a company? Did you ever work at a company that had blind I didn't work at a company when that existed. I no. Or like I I used to read you probably had one. You you probably just didn't didn't join it, but like Um Blind is basically a private social network. So let's say you work at a big company, there's an app called Blind, you log in, you have to use your

42:01 I think you have to show that you have a work email there, so like only people who work at the company can see it and can post there. Still exists. But it's all anonymous. Yeah, it's it still exists. And It's all anonymous. And it's basically just like a back channel for people to bitch and moan and complain. And then the upside would be that they you know, there's kind of like a whistleblowery type of thing where you can you could call out hard truths that you're not gonna call out. But the reality is that it was all just complaints. Um and the problem was it was misguided complaints. So so like for example, at Twitch

42:32 It's like I was on the exec team. So I knew I knew all the numbers of the company. I knew what was going on. I knew the strategy. I knew who was smart. I knew who wasn't, because I'm sitting with these people every day. And then you read a blind rev a a a review on blind or like a post on blind from someone who's like a you know, just like a mid level employee. Um, you know, some engineering manager somewhere, they would be often be like, Oh, we're you know, there was no way we're gonna hit our numbers. I'm like, dude, we're hitting our numbers. What are you talking about? I could see that. I could see the numbers. You don't have access to the numbers, so you're just like You know, just talking out your ass, basically.

43:02 But And and the loudest, most sort of extreme voices would get the get the most play, right? They would get the most attention. And so it's the same way, like when Dropbox launches on hacker news and the top comment is like no one's ever gonna use this.

43:15 And it he can give you an a highly intelligent breakdown of why nobody's ever gonna use Dropbox. And the Dropbox becomes like so big, right? So I think like a lot of these m message board anonymous message board type things are Too biased towards negativity from people who don't have real information.

43:32 and um are too prone to false negatives to be trusted. So like for every example you could find where you get signal, you're gonna find counter signal, which means to me I can't use this because I can't differentiate signal and counter signal properly. Only only hindsight, you know? No, if I think if you read enough of them, I think you can start it like, for example, if you're trying to understand like a macro trend or uh industry analysis, I think you can see trends in the classroom reviews and I think that it could help paint a picture but not be you it's not a fact. It's just like uh it's just like d is this does this jive with other sources that I'm learning about. So that's why I'm on board with it. By the way, agree to disagree, like I think you're right. I think you're right, I don't think you're wrong.

44:11 Um, I think there's some problems with it, but there's some some utility. You're the only guy I know who uses it, which I find like funny. Well, like like I wanted to learn about the CEO. And I'm like, what makes a CEO so great? And I read an article about him and it was like, don't mistake this guy's gentleness for ruthlessness. It's a don't mistake a soft gentleness for someone who is willing to play by the rules. Yeah. And I was like, that's like an interesting title. So this guy's like must be like a really nice guy, but he's ruthless and um he's kind of a killer. That's like an interesting trait. Like is there like is there is there like anything I can learn from his personality? And I went and read uh his Glassdoor reviews and he had glowing reviews as a CEO where people are like, nice guy But total hard ass. And I just thought like that is uh that that mix those mixes of uh those two traits when you mix like be your you could be polite and like hardcore.

45:02 I respect that. I like that. If is this a person I want to learn for? Learn from. That was kind of like my insight from looking at the glass reviews. And also Uh reading interviews, things like that. Right, right. And so I just thought it was fascinating. But we had Mark Laurier the pod. Mark started uh Diapers.com, which he grew like during like the dot com boom and he sold for hundreds of millions of dollars. Then he did the same with Jet.com, sold that for billions of dollars. Now he's got a new thing. Have you seen this new thing? It's called uh I think Wonder. Wonder, yeah. Uh and he had this thing when he came on the pod. By the way, when he came on the pod, he we could tell that he didn't have a laptop and we were like Are you calling from your iPhone? And he was like, Yeah, I don't I don't use laptops. And we were like

45:42 Is that like a billionaire thing? And he was like He was awesome, by the way. I love that guy's energy. Like he he was Super positive, super energetic, super optimistic. He was great, right? Charismatic, he was fun. He was a few. He was the best. I would love to have him on. We gotta get him back on. Well, on the pod, we asked him how he how he did it, and he had one phrase that has always stuck with me. Uh because it was almost like saying

46:04 I'll explain why it stuck with me, but it was called vision, capital, and people. He goes, Those are the three things I care about. He goes, I find a really big idea and a big opportunity. I raise a ton of money and then I go and hire the best people and I pay them all of that money that I raised. And I sort of get out of the way and let them do the work. And I have a bootstrap company. You have only done bootstrap comp mostly done bootstrap companies. It's really hard to do that because you don't have a lot of money to pay people. So you're doing the work. So it feels like a gr a grind. And this company, Wiz, is sort of a good example of the founders. They raised they found amazing opportunity. They raised shitloads of money. And this is a perfect example of how it's done when you have a really big idea and you have a really big opportunity and you have a ton of money.

46:52 I think it's as hard as a bootstrap startup. Do you know what I mean? Like it's that they're of equal challenging in stressfulness. Yeah. Equal.

47:02 I don't know. This scaling at breakneck speed seems A lot more challenging to me. I think if you had a small Bootstrap startup. That was growing quickly.

47:13 you would feel a similar amount of stress, but there is no but there is no chance That you would have a thirty two billion dollar exit in five years. One of the funny things about life is that If you decide to start a business, you're gonna spend Let's just call it. Ten hours a day.

47:27 Maybe twelve. Early on. Just Obsessed. Your mind is just obsessed with this company. Ten hours a day, twelve hours a day, every single day. It doesn't matter. If that's a taco truck.

47:38 It doesn't matter if it's Wiz selling for thirty two billion. You're still gonna take ten to twelve hours a day of your time and mind share. It's still gonna stress you out. Pretty much equally. If you are doing a thing that's, you know, uh

47:53 One million in ARR. And you're trying to pay the bills and you're trying to pay yourself and you're trying to grow and you're trying to do all those things. Well, guess what? These guys are also trying to pay the bills, trying to grow, trying to do all that stuff. So you're right, like the stress levels. are more based on you as a person. And the than the company that you're doing.

48:07 Um, and the time is equal whether whether you have, you know, d doesn't matter how many zeros are at the end of the size of the business. This was probably one of the most important lessons my dad taught me. He was like, My first my first business was in the restaurant industry. And he my dad worked in oil and gas his whole life. He worked for BP. And so he was like, Yeah, the energy industry is just like the restaurant industry. You're gonna spend the same ten hours a day, except in this one there's three extra zeros on the end of every project.

48:33 And so Would you rather spend that same time on a small project or a bigger project? Like that's what that's what you're deciding between here. Um and I was like, Which is sort of hard to hear, right? Like you're like, I'm dedicating my life to this thing, you're dedicating your life to this thing, but your prize is so much bigger. I didn't think it was hard to hear. I was like, Oh, that's the truth. Okay, cool, thank you. Like, okay, what do I do? And then I pretty much immediately switched and went and did a biotech thing with him in Australia. Like you know, I was like I was pretty ready to hear the truth. Um

49:02 I think that Most people you're right don't like to hear the truth. I like to hear the truth'cause I realize that basically the truth While short term painful. is actually long term less painful.

49:14 And I think most people don't like the short term pain. They're willing to have long term pain. Have you been following these guys like getting acquired? Did was there anything that uh you liked about the story or that stuck out to you? Well, remember when we first brought this up? We first brought this up because Wiz was rumored to be selling for twenty three billion. And then it's and then something happened where it was like, No, that's just a rumor, or Google couldn't do it'cause of antitrust, or the for some reason the deal wasn't gonna happen.

49:40 And if you remember, Usav came out and he tweeted this like kind of like badass memo where it was like First they leaked the deal like first deal information got leaked. There are rumors to t uh about an acquisition for twenty three billion. Then he releases a thing and he's like We're not looking to get acquired.

49:56 Let me be clear. I think he said, like, let me cut to the chase. Our next milestones are a billion in ARR and an IPO. And everyone's like, Yeah, that's it. That guy's a killer. And most of us were like most of the most of us on the side that were like Oh nice negotiating. Like Pretty sure it's gonna sell for I don't know, twenty five, thirty billion in the next in the next twelve months. And that's exactly what happened. It sold for thirty billion, thirty two billion in the next twelve months. It like came exactly true, what a lot of people noticed, which was like what was the first offer? The first offer was like twenty or eighteen. Twenty.

50:29 And I I don't even know if the twenty three billion was on the table. Maybe the twenty three billion was what he wanted at the time. And they continue to grow. And and I i i this is all part of the negotiation, right? It's not um This didn't I I I don't think this leaked because uh somebody really just wanted the world to know. You know, this is part of a part of a public negotiation. It's a price setting, it's an anchoring, it's getting the second bidder to up their bid. There's there's a whole bunch of stuff happening there. And when a CEO's like We want to be independent. And it's like Yeah, you do.

51:03 But if the price is right. You know, we'll see. We'll see what happens. And alm almost always once the price is right, they they do it. I love hearing about the story. I'm very excited. The uh

51:15 The time that we've worked on this podcast, this guy has built and sold a thirty two billion dollar company. Ha ha ha. Well when you put it like that. Probably not. And now he will try to. I bet you this guy's gonna get into podcasting.

51:41 Even kings and billionaires want to be podcasters. And I was like, it's true, dude. Like you see, you know, whether it's billionaires on the all in podcast or Brad, you know, Bill Gurley in his podcast. You have his podcast. Elon is tweeting and like crazy and trying to be trying to get his word out there. You see Gavin Newsome starting the new the his new podcast. They want they all want what we got, Sam. They all want what we got. And we'll sell it to them for thirty two billion. It's always been this way. You know, you look at uh like who has bought Time Magazine.

52:15 And with uh Washington Post and Bezos You know King or once you've one w once you're rich you always want to be king. And to be king oftentimes is to own a media company for some for some reason. It's been that way for hundreds of years. Yeah, yeah.

52:32 There's three buckets. If you're rich but l but l lack status, you're gonna chase status. If you're high status, but no money, you're gonna chase money. And if you have rich and status, you're gonna chase power. Those are the three. Uh y y you will fill those up. Like somebody uh I have a friend who's who who knows Elon. And he was telling me he's like Elon gets all this criticism right now for for backing Trump and Doge and all this stuff. And the thing people say is like

52:58 Um you know, he's doing this to make m like he's doing this to like give Tesla or whatever an unfair advantage. He's doing this to enrich himself. And he's like, Are you an idiot? He's like, he's not doing this to enrich himself. He wants status. Like Like not that oh he's doing this altruistically, but he wants status. That's of course what people want when they when they're when they have the money, they want the status. And when they have the status, they want the power. Like those are the three like

53:20 Things that draw people to do crazy stuff. Yeah, he wants something, but it's not money. Yeah, he's got I think at this point when you have that much money. More money is probably boring. His father did a good thing on DJ Vlad, where he was talking about how he was like

53:37 Elon I knew after he sold zip to that he wouldn't stop until he was number one, the richest person in the world. It's like I say that. Yeah, he goes, I uh he goes, I knew that was that's what he wanted to do. And he would never stop until he was number one. I could tell he was like that since he was a kid. Wait, so Elon's dad did an interview with Vlad TV? Yeah, didn't we talk about this? Um yeah, there's a dude.

54:00 What else was in this? This is incredible. So Vlad TV Part of Black YouTube, one of my favorite niches of YouTube. Uh she had uh what's Elon's dad's name? Calar. Ah I forget his name. He had his dad on uh the other day

54:18 And DJ Vlad is weird. He never just releases the whole episode. Errol Musk. Errol. He like releases like clips. And he's been releasing clips over the past month of this interview and he talks about what Elon was like as a kid and how like are the rumors true that you are rich? And it sounds like this guy and Elon are exactly the same where he made some money and then he's like We're gonna spend it all buying this farm and turn this farm into a thing and it went broke and he's like, Well, I'm gonna come in with some other people to give me money, we're gonna start this new thing, and that worked, and he went rich and bust, like constantly. And he was like, I loaned Elon money to start zip two, and that turned into thirty million dollars. And I knew when he made that money he was never gonna stop until he was number one. And he just tells these crazy stories uh along the way. Dude, we need to do a whole reacts video. Was the interview good?

55:06 It's pretty good. It's shocking that like if my father said any of this shit publicly it's weird, dude. It's very like they talk exactly. The same. The way they're they're telling you. All the comments are like his laugh is a DNA test in itself. Or They they're time stamping and it says I swear this is Elon, the face Mimics it. The way he laughs, the way he rolls his eyes. I could see Elon here. This is this is a this laugh is a paternity test.

55:32 Like the spacing in words, you know how Elon talks slow. He has like a very like unique structure, uh, how he talks. It's exactly the same. And his dad. Is insane, by the way. Like there's like some crazy story about how he is now married to his stepdaughter. Like he does some wacky ass shit. He's married to his stepdaughter? Something weird like that. Yeah, he has a kid with his stepdaughter. Yeah. And there's a s and there's like uh just when he's talking, you see I understand why the children who you raised Why they're insane.

56:01 And why they're ultra like in order to be ultra successful, you have to have some type of like weird like daddy issue. And I see him and I'm like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get why you have a daddy issue, because you're insane. Like he reveals stuff, like he'll be like, Yeah, Elon like was crying to me when he was like 23. And I thought, how weak. Like he like will tell a story where he's like disrespecting his son. in front of everyone and I'm like, Oh, you're an asshole. That's why your son it behaves this way sometimes. It's like a very interesting interview. And it was has been totally under talked about. Yeah, this is crazy. This is a two and a half hour interview. Oh, did he release the whole thing finally? When did that get released? Normally when he's he normally does like clips. Like he releases clips. Two and half hour interview. Released a month ago. Um

56:44 How many views does it have? A hundred and seventy one thousand. That's it? Yeah. Just to press to put that into uh into perspective here.

56:54 DJ Vlad, most popular interview. Um is with let's see, who's he got here. Uh boozy. Boozy has six point six and a half million views. Cardi B five point seven million. I mean Boozy's a good a good lesson. It's a great interview. So we're gonna have to like watch the whole thing, but there's like crazy

57:19 good insight into all this and um And like my takeaway from all this is like it's not worth being successful if you and your father are behave this way to one another. Um, like it's very strange to see like you don't have to be a psychologist to like watch us and be like Uh, I I understand why this family screwed up. Yeah, messed up family. Okay, wow.

57:41 That's amazing. All right. Corporate es corporate espionage stories. You got what you wanted. Every remember everything on this podcast is allegedly and this is a comedy podcast. Thank you very much. Uh don't come after us. Alright, that's it, that's a pod. I feel like I can rule the world of no way It be what I want to

57:59 I put my all in it like my days off On the roadless travel, never looking back

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