Transcript

What the Oscars tell us about streamers, studios, and Hollywood’s future with The Ankler's Janice Min

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Ha ha ha. Hey everyone, today we have a special rapid response, a post-Oscars episode featuring Janice Min. She's co-founder and CEO of The Anklor, the prestigious irreverent insider business media covering Hollywood.

1:48 Janice and I talked through the Oscar night winners and losers, not just among films, but also entertainment companies. From Tim Cook and Jeff Bezos to Conan O'Brien and Demi Moore, there was plenty of drama and keen lessons, too, about how low budget players can outpace well-banked competitors. the rising fear of political controversy and more. The Oscars say as much about culture and the current marketplace as they do about the art of film making. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

2:24 I'm Bob Safe and I'm here with Janice Minn of the Anklor to talk about Oscar Night. Janice, great to see you. Good to see you. So do you have an Oscar night routine? Like w where do you do your viewing? Who are you with? What do you do after set the scene for us. How how do you approach it?

2:44 Bob, this is going to be very disappointing and really uh You know, burst any illusions about what it's like to work in Hollywood. I watched it on my sofa with my husband. I got dressed at around seven thirty my time and And um called an Uber and went over to I Know How to Pick an Oscar Party. I went to the one for Neon, which is the studio. That swept the night with Anora. It was at Soho House in West Hollywood and it was definitely happening.

3:17 Yeah, yeah, must have been packed and the spirit must have been good. It's the big winner of the night. A slew of awards, including Best Picture. And for a film that's taken in only about 40 million dollars at box offices worldwide, which means most of the people watching on TV last night had never seen the movie. Well, I saw an Instagram. There were some people who had their status up or whatever you could put in your in your um In your little avatar and w one of them was What's Anora? And so I think there were probably a few people watching who were feeling the same way. Um but I So I want to say I Anora is a real triumph for

3:54 certain quarters of the industry though. Like And I think if you were following this Oscar campaign at all, which is a whole sport here, um in town. Uh the Honora director, Sean Baker, the people associated with Honora, and also The Brutalist, um, a another independent movie, they hammered home the fact that they were independent films.

4:18 over and over and over again. And you heard Sean Baker, the director who won also Best Director last night making this point on stage as well. Like Six million dollar budget. I I will never make a studio film. Uh this is the way I want to continue to make films. Tell the stories you want to tell. I think it was a real At least you can interpret it this year, yes, Anora could have been best picture, but I felt like it was also a referendum on what's happened since the last Oscars in Hollywood, which has been You know.

4:50 Little doom and gloomy at the studios. Yeah, and and just to clarify for our audience, like what independent film means. Is it just that they don't raise a lot of money or they raise the money themselves with without Yeah, the answer is yes to both. So an independent film is small budget. I think typically the budget Is under thirty five million dollars. Uh, and it means that you s are sort of

5:14 Um scrapping together money from here or there. You're not beholden to the distribution machine of the larger studios. And then by the larger studios I mean like Warner Brothers, Disney, Paramount, and you are sort of um McGivering together a story you want to tell, and it usually means there are no notes. from a studio, no one telling you, uh, can you insert this character so we can make a toy out of that character or so that we can have, you know, uh the honora Ride at Disneyland. So it's creatively independent as well as being financially independent. Yes, that that is exactly how you can think about it. And you know, Bob, if your agent were to say to Disney, hey, I have this movie about a sex worker who gets married to a s the son of a Russian oligarch and then

6:05 Things go sideways. I mean, you will never even get into the pitch room. And same with the brutalist. Uh I have a three and a half hour movie about an um a Hungarian architect uh who comes to America and has an intermission. I mean, these these are just never gonna happen in the system as it exists today. Now I I don't know how you felt w watching the the Oscar night, but there were it felt like there was more tension than usual because kind of the the best picture category seemed wide open. Uh in part because of Emilia Perez kind of blowing up on the way through, right? Yeah, I mean, okay, the Emilia Perez story like This is It was sort of I hate to say fun, but this is one of these old school Oscar.

6:50 implosions which we haven't seen in a long time. Everyone's become so disciplined and controlled. And oh my God, that went entirely off the rails. And I thought it was also sort of a great moment. Or great for Carla Sophia Gascon to you know, kind of true to form. She's like Nope. I'm coming and I'm showing up. Yeah. Conan O'Brien could give me a hard time, but I'm gonna be here, right? I thought it was Conan O'Brien handled it really well. Um I I had gone on Morning Joe last week and predicted Honora would be the best picture win uh winner, so I'd like to just congratulate myself. Um but I think that yes, it could have gone any which way. And I think I mean you had great movies. You had wicked um

7:35 You know, uh I thought that Surprises could have been if Conclave had won. Um, you know, the Pope's having a moment, uh, right now. And uh then I thought I'm still here could have been the dark horse candidate in that and that movie is based on a true story from Brazil about life under authoritarianism. Is there buzz inside Hollywood, like because of the blow up of Amelia Perez that like we have to vet our actors and their social media feeds going back in a different kind of way than Bob, how many times have we learned this lesson, right? No one ever went into her social media and thought to search for Hitler and Islam and

8:18 And here we are. Yeah. Like it was one of those sort of stories Hollywood loves, first trans actress to be nominated for best actress. And then, you know, and then I I can't I have to we can't blame this all on Carla Sophia Gascon, the director, Jacques Audiard, who's French. He said Spanish is the language of the poor, uneducated, and migrants. Probably votes. There was also backlash the brutalists for using AI. Which um I'm not sure I understand. Doesn't Hollywood love CGI and special effects? This is

8:52 This is the this w the ridiculous of that now. People are so eager to pounce on anything that even has a whiff of AI. I understand. They used Re speecher to make sure that Adrian Brody's Hungarian accent was Uh like as good as it could be. I mean I You know, by the way, we needed respeeture to Yeah, he went a little bit off the rails there, didn't he? Yeah. I mean I it's great to win an Oscar, but You know, you didn't just

9:21 Yeah. You know, create peace in the Middle East or something also. So So the biggest loser of the night, I thought going in, I was like, am I is it gonna be Emilia Perez or is it gonna be Netflix? Like which way do you and and then I you know, they flash on Demi Moore when she loses out on the best actress to Mikey Madison, and I thought, Oh, she just looks so crestful. And then Hulu cuts its Oscar stream, which is

9:46 Like In some ways that's like the worst, like a not a good moment for Disney, which owns Hulu, is advertising its shows all night. Like How did they get that wrong? I uh boy, well, you know, we've learned about live streams and uh our streaming platforms in the past year is that they're not necessarily so reliable. They're kind of winging it in the same way everyone else is. Um so so yes, that and remember, Bob Iger is there in the audience, right? And he probably didn't really know till his phone started blowing up that that that had happened. Um and okay, so I would say Netflix. This happens all the time to Netflix at the Oscars, that they have come in with they come in hot. They had the most nominations. Um and then there were still There's still quarters of the academy, the voting body, who can't forgive Netflix for not showing movies in theaters. And

10:40 And you heard Sean Baker make that a big part of one of his acceptance speeches that We have to believe in the theatrical experience the communal part of it. He got rapturous applause at that line. And there are going to be filmmakers And uh crafts people in Hollywood who will believe in that till the bitter end and and not want to reward those who don't make that possible.

11:08 They've they're doing I mean the ambition of Amelia Perez was quite high. It was so high. It was at Cannes, the Cannes Film Festival. It did show in theaters, but it didn't have the wide release that That Top talent once, but I I what I do think this year c was an interesting test case, if Amelia Press hadn't imploded on the campaign trail, could this have been its year? And could this have been the breakthrough. Yes, and I think that, you know, that day is coming.

11:34 Uh. And to me more? Oof. Boy, I felt so bad for her. I mean, you know, it's one of these things. You've been told you've been you were anointed as the best actress. Winter months ago.

11:47 Right. And um she gave a Golden Globe speech when she won there that was basically, you know, a warm up to an acceptance speech at the Oscars. It had all the Yeah, the narrative. Narrative is such an important part of these campaigns. It had all the narrative people care about, a comeback, an actress who was mistreated back in the day, and uh a story about you know, Hollywood loves stories about Hollywood. It's about an aging actress who'll do anything to to remain young. I mean, that had all the perfect elements except for the number of voters. Um and I that to me that to me in a night of Not that many surprises was probably the biggest surprise.

12:29 Mm. I mean the y you use the word campaign and I think for a lot of viewers of of the Oscars, they don't really realize all of these things that are going on in the background. To You know, promote. You know even though you're not supposed to promote, right? Like that's that's kind of the the myth about it.

12:47 Uh yeah, I mean so Last year when People were Camp when Donald Trump and Kamala Harris were campaigning for president, there's a whole other campaign going on in Hollywood where you are going out to events and festivals and you're talking about your film setting again, I'm gonna use that word narrative about why

13:09 You're sort of Trying to subliminally or not so subliminally indicate Why? your film and you should win. So you are there. It really is retail politics. You go, you show up to these events if you want to be nominated or you are a nominee. It's shaking hands, it's everything but kissing babies. And well there's also I got I have to mention there's also advertising of which we are a beneficiary, right? One of the things that struck me with the

13:35 watching the show last night on T V. I was on my couch as well with with a group. Um but one of the things that struck me was it seemed less overtly political than some shows have been. Yeah. I I think Uh there was a memo. you know, both formal and informal that went out to presenters and just you know

13:58 Don't don't go there. That there's no benefits. I mean, I think we've I think We've also people who work in Hollywood have internalized that. Um uh you know, Hollywood is under attack. It's sort of this code word for uh certain quarters of um maga. And I thought it was notable. that two people who typically love the Oscars were not in the audience, Tim Cook from Apple and Jeff Bezos from Amazon. And those are two people who are not

14:27 really beloved at the moment in the industry for their Z there's sudden turn towards supporting The president. Um and anyway, that it it's it stayed relatively politics free. I think um The moment of uh no other land winning. Definitely was about as as

14:47 political is uh as we would get and I just wanna note the documentary. It's about uh the settlements in the West Bank. And I just wanna note that in these sort of uh The chilling effect of the political climate. Is such that Most documentaries are not getting bought presently unless they involve

15:06 David Beckham and Victoria Beckham and or a story about musicians. It's anything political is not getting bought at the moment. And the best documentary winner last night does not have a buyer or distributor still. Which is wild. Zoe Saldana's acceptance speech for her Amelia Peret's best supporting actress point sort of s struck out To me as something that was at least trying you know, making a statement about first Dominican, talked about her parents as immigrants, the use of Spanish language in the in the film.

15:37 There there was a way to say it without saying it. And she did that. Uh and Everything she said was factual about her life.

15:47 And I think that that remains a sort of She probably isn't getting blowback on that one today, though I could be wrong. Everyone gets blowback for everything, so who knows? Janice is both matter of fact and unsentimental about how Hollywood works without being unsympathetic. As she explains, the business and political environment have so much impact on the artistic output. So how would she assess the future impact of each Netflix, Amazon, and Disney on the film world? We'll talk about that after the break. Stay with us.

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17:50 Before the break, Janice Minn of The Anchor shared Hollywood's inside take on the winners and losers from Oscar Knight. Now we talk about the colliding world of film and TV, concern over Amazon's ownership of James Bond, and why Disney needs movies to fuel its engine. Plus, what keeps Netflix atop the Hollywood food chain despite its Emilia Perez disappointment. Let's dive back in. What did you think of Conan O'Brien's hosting? I think it's pretty good. Like he did okay, the the first job when you have

18:26 when you're the Oscar host is do no harm and he did no harm. But on top of that, he was pretty funny. I I laughed out loud a few times, right? And one of the great charms of Conan is that He always makes himself the butt of the joke as well. And there were the he was sort of delightful. I thought the monologue was absolutely great. And I liked that he acknowledge the Carla Sophia Gascon issue without destroying her in the audience and

18:57 The Adam Sandler bit was funny. I the I the head the later on the head shots were funny. Uh when they showed Timothy Chalamet's head shot as a uh ultrasound picture. I mean, he was he was sort of delightfully light and kept it moving. Uh I don't know if he's gonna go down as one of the top five greatest Oscar hosts of all time, but I think he will be invited back, which is uh Which is a win. I mean in that opening he poked fun at Netflix over price hikes. That was funny. He made

19:28 He made fun of Amazon and and Jeff Bezos. But then there was this like musical homage to James Bond, which was like a gift to Amazon, right? Which which just bought the future rights to Bond. So I There are always a few moments in the Oscars where you kind of start they start to lose the audience and you're zoning out. Like nobody asked for a James Bond segment. Right. Nobody wanted that. Nobody cared. I mean this Amazon

19:54 Pay for that? Like why would a Disney Run show make a decision to So okay, this is what I think. I think I think that The producers were probably viewing it as As more of like a a rebuke against Amazon. I feel like they were saying like this is what it was and this is what made it great.

20:12 And say goodbye to that. That's a little bit what I felt. I mean if you you know, when you're in that room, so you're you're trying to play to two audiences, which what one of them is like h the insiders of Hollywood. And then obviously the the greater viewing audience. And I don't know. That one I felt like was pr maybe making a point to the insiders. So a Conan also did a bit around cinema streams for you know making a joke about watching movies in a theater versus on your phone or at or at home. And and I I guess what they brought up for me was

20:46 How separate And this is I guess his point, but how separate is film? from TV really these days. Like a a four part streaming series and a movie can sort of be indistinguishable. As we move to the future, the difference between a movie and a TV show. I

21:04 I know. And I think this is this existential argument or d existential crisis that's happening here, right? Like What is the art form and What qualifies as art and Uh how do how does this how is this art preserved in a way that still retains all of its audience. And like Bob, I would take it a step further. What differentiates

21:29 Uh your creators you watch on YouTube and your Instagram Reels feed and TikTok with T V and film. I mean it's all just kind of uh a continuous real in people's lives. And uh so I think the fight is how do you make Film.

21:48 So special. And something without being precious. Um, how do you make it special and an event in a way that those other forms of media can't fulfill. And it's not necessarily about Watching it.

22:02 in a theater, even though Sean Baker wants us to watch it in the theater. I mean how many of the Oscar films did you watch in the theater? How do you decide which ones to watch in the theater versus others? Oh ouch, I don't ask me that question. Oh ouch. Um yeah I mean I I think uh Uh. Going to a theater is great. I love going to a theater, but it requires a real commitment of time and Of

22:27 Parking, figuring out a time, getting everyone together. And again, those things are special. Those things are things that we should do more of as a society. But We kinda don't. So if if I I'm gonna give you four players and and I'm uh play a game for you, ranking their power in the future of of film. Oh wow. Ready? Okay, okay. Netflix Amazon. Disney.

22:52 And China. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. As I go off the board, I realize China's bigger than the other companies. Okay. I can do this. Okay. Netflix huge. Netflix will can like the thing is the person who Controls the

23:08 Checkbook always wins. Netflix is the single big biggest buyer of film in Hollywood. Hands down. They make the most films. That's why you see those big names still on there on the platform. They win. And I don't care if you Uh don't like Netflix because they don't uh release theatrically. They still had a best picture uh nominee in Amelia Perez for a kooky movie for that many people would say is a kooky movie. They win. Um

23:37 Okay, then uh Amazon. I Amazon Did O outside of Nickel Boys, which was part of MGM. Am the which Amazon had acquired. Amazon did not really score here in the Oscars. They didn't have an Oscar movie. So you could see, I think you can see some trend lines, particularly in the actions of You know, it's

23:59 chairman of the board. I s I think that's Jeff Bezos's current title, um, that they might not need this or want this, right? You're seeing them move into sports in a big way, acquiring sports rights that have begun, you know, two years ago with Thursday night football. I think they're gonna say, like, why are we spending this money on An These things and what how does this make sense for us? So Okay, so I would say Amazon, I would uh I I'm saying trending down in film.

24:27 Um Okay, the Disney Disney will always be in film. Disney's pipeline of how it Creates its Uh other uh extensions of its business require

24:39 Intellectu property being made great through film. And uh I mean you can see that with Um, the Star Wars ride at Disneyland and uh I mean the everything is IP. And they So it's almost like their their films are are a business, but they're also like a a proving ground for n the next business. It's like their incubator. Yeah, it's it's the greatest um marketing platform for the Disney Empire. So

25:06 And they make good films. So they they will be in that business. Absolutely. Mm I asked about China'cause I saw that, you know, a a Chinese animation film broke The animation box office record. Yeah, I I mean uh boy, like It wasn't that long ago when everyone thought China was gonna save Hollywood. And uh turns out that wasn't the case. China's just making their own Hollywood. And it's uh I think in the sort of mounting tensions between China and the United States and the sort of on both sides

25:39 Um, you know, a real uh nativist stance there is just not The they just don't want to support American films. Like why would you? And so we y you remember or you might recall there used to be these blow ups about, you know, movies changing villains from Chinese to something else. You are doing all these things to kind of try to get an approval to be distributed in China. It's like The Bachelor, right? You have to be given a rose. Um and if you're not given a rose, you just don't have a movie there. And at some point I think the studios were just decided you're just chasing good effort after bad. Everyone wants to be an international

26:19 uh international movie star, but you have the rest of the world to But Leave China out. Mm-hmm.

26:27 All right, going from global to local Lots of LA pride on display at the Oscars, the opening pleas for fire recovery. But none of the Ten best picture nods were actually filmed in LA. Like Wha what does the future of the movie business look like as LA's lifeblood? Like

26:46 How does that Match up. Well So Yeah.

26:51 There's something that we say often at the anchor, which is Hollywood is becoming more of an idea than a place. And the idea of Hollywood is now in Atlanta and in Vancouver and in Australia and the UK. Or in Vegas, where people are vying to build production space. So there's a stay in LA campaign of people trying to get people to stay here. I think it all comes down to tax credits. Uh the governor, Gavin Newsom, um, has given a little in tax credits, but There's also real resistance. And this is again speaking to the kind of politics of today. I think for the ninety eight percent no, how about ninety nine percent of people who don't work in Hollywood, who live in California.

27:37 They were like, Wait, why are we giving those people a break? Um, and I don't think there are a lot of political incentives to necessarily give more. Cause I think when you start talking about it's good for the economy and the creates it has all this job creation, that is an intangible Discussion for most people. Um, it just com I think it looks more like, wait, they're getting a break and we're not. No. So um that this is gonna be one of the big battles. And also it's worth noting that for a a political candidate like Gavin Newsom, you don't necessarily need to win Hollywood anymore. That's a nice to have

28:15 But you need to win Silicon Valley. And I have to believe they have a very different view of this. The balance of power. Has fallen differently. Yes.

28:25 Completely. Well, Dennis, this was great and uh thanks for doing it. Uh my pleasure. Thanks me. I often think about how the business of Hollywood is itself a Hollywood-esque tale of drama and humor and intrigue. Janice brings that voyeur's perspective and an openness about where the plurn next.

28:49 The balance of power in every industry is under pressure these days from new technologies, new customer expectations, and our increasingly fractured culture. Entertainment is both a reflection of those shifts and a prism to better understand them. Sometimes a movie isn't just about what's on the screen. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original.

29:21 I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Le Tal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com.

29:42 Yeah.