Redefining work-life balance, with Neha Ruch

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. It's not like these women are like serving their husband a cocktail and a plate of cookies at the end of the day. Women and men.

1:40 Are able to grow not just in the minute to minute of caregiving, which we know is demanding and leadership training in and of itself, but how they're actually. Sharpening their skills in new ways such that they're not counted out of the workforce. One in three women working out of the home are planning a career pause in the next two years. One and two are planning a downshift of hours. Those ninety percent of women on pause aim to return. So the goal right now is to update the perception of the modern woman pause because she is really ever shifting and ever evolving on like a much more grey spectrum between work and family. That's Naharouche.

2:28 founder of the platform Mother Untitled, and author of the new book, The Power Pause. As family and career trade-offs become more complicated and often more expensive. I wanted to talk to Neha about her research into what makes a career pause valuable for society, for businesses, and for individuals. Her argument that the time away from work can lead to a better career Is counterintuitive and instructive.

2:56 And she doesn't shy away from addressing the cultural stereotypes that can plague mothers, fathers, and even hiring managers. As corporate diversity and inclusion programs recede and government support for parenting is questioned. It's critical to understand the career reality that parents are facing. So Let's get to it.

3:16 This is rapid response I'm Bob Safian, and I'm here with Naha Roosh, founder of Mother Untitled, author of the new book. The Power Pause, How to Plan a Career Break After Kids and Come Back Stronger Than Ever, and A Mother of Two. Nayha, thanks for joining us.

3:40 I'm so thrilled to be here. Thanks for having me. You're on a mission to reduce stigma for women. Around Stepping back from a career to focus on family. There's so much uneasiness right now about challenges and choices that American families face around work and raising kids.

3:59 So many labels and stereotypes. As I was introducing you, I I realized that I may have fallen into some of those traps. H how do you introduce yourself? Do you do you start with your family, your career, your education? I know you have an MBA from Stanford. I think we lean on the answer. To what do you do? in place of who are you? And so for a long time I got to say I run brand at a tech startup. And in like a few pithy words, I was saying, like, I run, so I'm a leadership position brand, so I'm somewhat creative. And a tech startup, so I was, you know, somewhat.

4:32 ahead of the curve or a risk taker. And so it conveys a lot about you. And then when you part with that, you realize, wait a second, we have more expansive identities. All those skills and accomplishments go with us. So for a while, I would Word mama. You know, people would ask what you do and stay at home mom for reasons we'll go into didn't quite fit. And so I started to perfect right now. I get to be with my kids. We'll see what comes next. And what's been interesting is I shift back to more work outside of the home.

5:00 in launching this book. is now I stumble because I want to say I'm mostly with my kids, but I'm not. That's not where I am. My kids are in school. So I'm saying right now I'm getting ready to launch a book and we'll see what comes next. Hm. And that that term you mentioned, stay at home. Mom. Like

5:18 What does that term mean today? Cause As you describe it like it sounds a little bit like a pejorative. Some people think it it should be a badge of pride. I is there a better term? I don't think we've landed on a better term, but you know, if we back up. The phrase stay at home mother just by pure sociolinguistics is flawed, right? Stay at

5:39 Implies stagnancy. Working is an active. verb so just by nature of the the The language it's it sets us up to fail. Let's look at the nineteen seventies and we had the second wave of feminism, right? And we were trying to prove women's capacity in the workforce. And the media

5:58 really was able to continue to create uh new narratives show women uh archetypes in Work and yet we left behind anyone at home with apron strings with the June Cleaver archetype, right? To this day. If you pull the American public, we ran a survey in twenty twenty-three of a thousand members of the general population, twelve hundred women in downshifted careers. And the it when asked who they think of. When they think of the stay at home mother, they will still say June Cleaver.

6:30 When they think of the working mother, they will say Michelle Obama. One is fact, one is fiction. And so the goal right now is to update the perception of the modern woman on pause because she is very different. And she is really ever shifting and ever evolving on like a much more grey spectrum between work and family. You coined this term the power pause, the the name of your book.

6:53 So What does it mean and and what's important about the The pause. Well when I stepped into my own chapter of Stay At Home Motherhood, I was gobsmacked by

7:04 Just the sheer amount of pushback, whether it was from peers or family members wondering, like, what are you gonna do all day? Are you gonna be bored? Did you really waste that education at Stanford that you mentioned before? And the reality was I was hearing from them. That I was in some way giving up. or being counted out. And The reality for me, like ninety percent of

7:26 women on career pauses today is that I did aim to return to the workforce. This was just one chapter and I wanted time with my child. I wanted time to Surround myself with new experiences and see what came next, but by no means did I intend to stop growing. And The goal of the power pause is really to reframe the conversation as

7:48 one chapter where you're shifting priorities, you're shifting your time away from paid work to focus on family life, to focus on um raising children. Mental health. Family health. And yet you're still holding room to move forward towards more authentic goals, expand your network in new ways, explore new ideas, and ultimately really reshape your perspective so that when and if you're entering the workforce again, you're bringing with you a whole new portfolio of experiences. And what we want to do is be able to dignify that stage of life so that when and if women need

8:22 Or want to pause. They can be respected and supported and ultimately have an easier time getting back in. You said that the title of the book and the premise were controversial when you took the proposal to publishers. What made it controversial'cause As you talk about it, it sounds

8:39 Quite logical. Well, you're looking at first of all a generation of women Oftentimes at publishing houses and in the media, who have clocked in a lot of time in the workforce, and they were we've all been served these sort of black and white ideas of stay at home and working. And for so long, especially among women. Right. And I wanna say now that one in five stay at home parents are Our fathers actually, and that number is ticking upward. But stay at home and working mothers were pitted against each other for a long time. The sort of rise of the quote unquote mommy wars happened in the eighties and nineties. That label was invented by media to talk about how what sort of one side was associating with staying at home because

9:19 They wanted secure attachment with their children and one side was working out of the home. because they wanted to model ambition for their children. And the reality is we made it about the kids, which like naturally, as soon as you make things about the kids, it's gonna raise your defensiveness, right? And then you dig in your heels and say, well, my way is better and my way is better. And what we know now is first of all, all the research shows That whether you're working out of the home Or in the home or existing in between you can produce healthy and happy outcomes for your children. Also what we know is that

9:49 From our research last year, one in three women working out of the home. Our planning. a career path in the next two years. one and two are planning a down shift of hours. Those ninety percent of women on pause aim to return. So really we are re ever evolving and ever shifting. But for a while You know, we were sort of facing those black and white notions and having to convince

10:13 Whether it was media or publishers, that this work was not anti feminist. It was not about setting women back. It was about Introducing new valid options. To help women be able to step into a career pause or down shift. And be able to remain active and engage so they could ultimately have more choices available to them on the other side and less penalty.

10:40 Women are having children at the age of average age across the country of thirty, and that's higher on the coast. So they're clocking in more. Education, more work experience like myself, right? I'd already done a decade in brand marketing. And then they have more equitable relationships with their partners, like what we just talked about. Dad are spending three times the amount of time with their kids than any generation prior. So it's not like these women are like serving their husband a cocktail and a plate of cookies at the end of the day. We want to do is be able to show case how Women and men. Are able to grow not just in the minute to minute of caregiving, which we know is demanding and leadership training in and of itself, but how they're actually.

11:21 sharpening their skills in new ways. I've often wondered why a pause to take care of kids Isn't looked at as like just another job experience. Like why why isn't it on the resume? There's plenty we learn from parenting and and people's careers Take all

11:37 kinds of other twists not necessarily family related that we put on resumes like is this just cultural stigma? Think we've diminished the value of care for a long time. First of all, just like economically, it doesn't, it doesn't have a line item on the GDP. I know there are Peers of mine who are working on that, Eve Rodsky with her tremendous work with Fair Play and the Fair Play Institute are really advocating for that. But when you don't have a place in the GDP, then it gets Diminished. And then you add to that that it's work that

12:08 is assumed to be done out of love, which of course it is, but it still comes with value. So salary.com uh did their own survey and their own math to say, well, if a s you know home parent was assigned value based on all the roles, chauffeur, chef, educator, then They would be making a hundred and eighty four thousand dollars a year. Yeah. No one's assigning that salary, but the war you know, that data is meant to signify that this is actual work of value and and parents who are doing that work.

12:38 should be valued and respected as such. I would go one step further, though, to say that it's not just those care tasks that I think we deem as easily outsourceable. It's the really intellectual and emotional labor. And so It's much more complicated work and I think if we can

12:55 Dignify it as such, we can start to not just assign it value, but I think we can start to elevate our perception of how. That work. can shape professionals experience and perspective on the other side. Mm. That

13:13 Time away from work can lead to a more focused, more impactful career in the long term. Wh which is, you know, seems counterintuitive. Our careers, and you know this, I think you've spoken to this before, are getting longer. Right. So we're looking at a longer game. And Pauses help make

13:32 that a sustainable long game where you you have to be able to reset your perspectives and bring in non traditional experience that you're rounding out that portfolio of work. And what we see women report on returning is that The number one thing they say that has changed their perspective, their ability to understand their relationship to work, to hold it with less urgency, but be more efficient and be able to manage their time and their priorities. And I think that that can be a real superpower. But I think beyond that, what we see is Women report how it shapes their desire to do work of meaning.

14:11 You know, time at home. Gives you a front row seat to the day to day issues that come up in your community. And a lot of women will change their positions and their industry upon return. And they may actually, and we see this in the data, value flexibility and more meaning even over salary. Your work isn't just about families with means. This is a challenge for middle and working class families. Child care is so expensive. It can eat up a f a full time salary. I yeah, after we had our second child, my wife's teacher salary barely covered

14:46 You know daycare and she opted to take care of our own kids instead of, you know, teaching someone else's kids. Do you have any advice on the financial decision? To embrace a single income household. One in three women.

15:02 feel forced to pause their careers because of the cost of child care. For so long stay at home motherhood was conflated with luxury. And as luxury We assume that it is not work worthy of support. And we don't pay attention to it in the really complicated conversation about how do we support caregivers.

15:25 As partner shift provide The unpaid work in the home. What we want To assume and really reiterate is that the partnership in the case of a two parent household now takes on this idea that it's an interdependent household. Because whether or not you are pausing your work because of financial considerations, a lot of women contend with this idea that

15:48 that they're giving up their financial independence. And when you Feel like you no longer have financial dignity, it can really make it hard to invest time back into yourself. So before you pause. as you make that decision to how are you going to support your family in this n next chapter. Ideally, that is a conversation you're having three to six months out. You're going through that budgeting exercise together, and you're making really conscious decisions whether it's we are together going to reduce our spending on travel. or entertaining our friends to be able to accommodate that loss of income because we together are deciding that one partner at home makes sense for us.

16:27 In that joint household investment, that joint household interdependence, then has a ripple effect of the home parent being able to say, you know what, I deserve breaks as well, because too often we see women, and I was guilty of this as well, saying, Well if I part with my Paid work. Now my entire value is in taking care of the house, and I no longer deserve support. And I certainly can't invest in paid help.

16:54 And obviously that is a flawed mindset because what we know is our children are best served with whole and healthy parents. And so what we want to be able to do is also rethink then when we're investing in maybe 10 hours of a babysitter, or we're saying let's block and tackle on the weekend so we each get breaks, we're saying both parents are contributing, both parents deserve care and support. And no one should be working twenty four seven without breaks. Naha embraces the value of both caretaking and career, which has been a tricky dance for many.

17:29 But as she says, there's no reason for a one size fits all approach in our modern world. So What are the implications for fathers in all this? And how should employers and hiring managers respond to people coming back from a career pause? We'll talk about that after the break. Stay with us.

17:54 Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second rapid response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there.

18:31 Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi.

18:47 And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Before the break, we heard Mother Untitled's Neha Rouche. Talk about the advantages of mothers taking a career pause.

19:23 Now she discusses how career pressures are both the same and different for fathers, how she personally transitioned back into the workforce, and her advice for employers and hiring managers in assessing what she calls returnees. Let's jump back in. As you mentioned, there are an increasing number of men who stay at home one in five. Are Challenges that men face

19:51 Different. I think there is still a recalibration around ambition. And success, there's still a Roadmap we all need to be able to walk through those rooms with our hell head held high and be able to answer that question, what do you do? And rethink, well, if I'm not making income.

20:13 And I'm not getting promotions, how do I define success so that I feel like I'm not stuck and I'm that I'm moving forward towards goals that will Orient me in the right direction, right? All of that holds true. I think what I've seen anecdotally is that men and women face different dynamics around Societal expectations of what caregiving looks like. I had a brilliant writer write this for me, Tao Tai. She talked about her own experience.

20:42 where her husband stayed at home for two years and then she stayed at home for two years. And when she stepped into stay at home motherhood, she was so excited because her husband seemed like he had such a fun time. Except she was like warm to the bone because she was baking cookies, she was on the PTA, she was doing crafts, and she was totally run ragged. And finally her husband looked at her and was like, Why are you trying to get the approval from some nebulous good parenting committee? I didn't do any of this. And she realized she was operating at some standard where To prove her worth as a stay at home mom, she needed to be a super mom.

21:19 I noticed that you Dedicate the book to your father. Why is that? So my dad immigrated with a company called InfoSES.

21:30 And he built that company uh in the States and then became a venture capitalist. And when he and I were walking around Union Square and I was pushing a little toddler around. I shared this idea that most people thought was like, Oh, she's giving up her Stanford business school degree and this impressive salary to like write a mom blog. And he looked at me and he said, I know that you're taking on a big mission, he saw the worth in it when no one else did.

21:57 And I think sometimes we need that other person who believes we can Do it. And he believes that something doesn't have to look big to be big. But I think beyond that. He was really in the startup. Grind.

22:12 You know, through my through my early years in America and then through my teens. My mother who had paused her own work to be at home. was his like unofficial, you know, head of human resources, right? She would get the new employees set up in the school system. She would entertain all of the partners, she would sort of be the emotional sounding board.

22:34 And I remember in my teens being so mad at my mom, as like teenage girls will be, and I was like, It's not even your you know, she probably didn't give me money for an Abercrombie shirt. I have no idea, but it you know, I said something about it not being her money. And that day I've never heard him really lose it on me, but he just turned around and he said, Never say that again. It's more hers than it will ever be mine. She's done more. to establish us in this country than the rest of us. And and I think he really instilled that in me such that When I made the choice to pause.

23:06 I was able to do it in a way that I was really secure. In my contributions. You chose to take this Pause and then you kind of Took that personal experience.

23:16 And turned it into a career. Right. Talking about it on social media, gaining a following, writing a book. Well, our skills don't evaporate, right? And our interests don't evaporate when we step into a career break. And I say this to all women. Like audit the things about your career that you are really proud of. when you Step into a career pause because you don't want to lose sight of those. Those go with you and your identity, even if you don't have that pithy titled. And I loved brand.

23:44 I loved marketing. I really found content and content that women absorbed fascinating. And then when I stepped into this career pause, I thought, Okay, well now I've already parted with the ego. of leaving my career, I might as well start dabbling with something else. And I will tell you that in this culture we have a way of diminishing small projects and passion projects and lifestyle businesses and Little blogs and I remember going to my five year Stanford business school.

24:12 Reunion and someone like overhearing people. whispering or snickering about that little blog. And you know, of course I wanted to say to them, No, this is how I'm taking on like a big cultural change and I'm just this is how I can do it in a small way while my kids napping and la you know I think it was Maybe it was Jeff Bezos who said, you know, you have to be willing to be misunderstood for a long time. And I think that that was the gift of parenthood, right? Because you're always making choices that not everyone understands. And

24:41 I w I got to plant seeds for this work. I I wanted to dabble in content. I And so I sat those sort of Clear success metrics that we're learning. Impact.

24:55 And networking. And so I would say I will go to different Motherhood content entrepreneur networking event. each quarter I will write three blog posts a week. I will start this Instagram channel and it was small early on. There's there is an irony in trying to build the purse plat first platform for women on career pauses while you're on a career pause. And you know I would get to a new year.

25:17 You know, in twenty seventeen it was really growing. And then twenty eighteen I had my second child, which brought me to my knees. And then twenty nineteen I was like, Well, this is my year and you know, the pandemic happened. But then timing is everything because I came out of that and the world was finally re examining. Work and family. Yeah. My children were aging into school.

25:38 And so I was ready. Um To put more in. And I was ready to step into A thought leadership position on this because I had been living it and writing about it and researching about it and interviewing it for all those years, even if it didn't look impressive on the outside. Uh are there

25:55 Policy changes for for mothers and families that your organization that mothers untitled advocates for? If We can get to a place that we can give stipends. For families who opt for one parent to be At home, then we can reduce the burden on the child care system. We can

26:16 causing a real financial possibility for parents. You know, at the at a base level, I love the work of Moms First because I think that paid family leave allows parents to be able to make this choice whatever their choice be. You know, I think that there's other sides of this. I really talk a lot about universal health care because I think if we had That as

26:40 Um option more parents would be able to shift into freelance and consulting. Opportunities so that both partners would get the flexibility they need to be able to

26:53 uh raise their family in different seasons. You know, the work that I'm most closely tied to is actually within the employers. So in really changing the minds of HR managers. I don't see a world that we're getting to a place where they're gonna sit across from a returner and say to them, Tell us about that career portfolio of non-traditional experiences and how it added to your skills. But I think we can get to a place where we can reduce the bias when they're looking at two resumes side by side. If an HR manager doesn't have this approach. Doesn't like should a returner

27:27 A great term, by the way. Should a returner be bringing up themselves what they You know, what they learned and grew for, like, is there a mindset that parents who want to go back to work? Need to adopt.

27:42 If a parent is looking to return, I highly suggest they start that process like as soon as they feel that little nudge. if they can take some time to really crystallize what it is they want to do. We offer resources on site to be able to work with coaches or resume writers, but even before you do all of that, You can look at all those skills and accomplishments that we talked about auditing. And When you're ready.

28:06 Start auditing. how you spend your time on a week to week basis and what the moments or activities are that you feel the most proud of. Whether you advise your partner on a, you know, marketing campaign for their tech Company. That was me, I did that. Um whether it's uh volunteering for your school's uh family education forum and whatever those activities are. start to be able to take stock of those because

28:35 Those dots after a year start to connect backwards. I spoke to a woman who had coordinated a new bus route. for her local school system, right? And what that revealed to her was that when she wrote down implemented highly complicated infrastructure update for local local community, right? A, that sounds impressive under the bullet of career sabbatical for family life. And B, what it revealed to her was that she was really strong in project management. And that ended up being a a talking point on her resume. So You don't have to go word vomit on them about how, you know, you grew in terms of, you know, personal growth and therapy and you finally healed all your wounds around reactivity, but you can sort of extract the bullets that are applicable to uh to the

29:25 the job that you're looking for, but that takes being able to really take the time and intention to take stock of those over the course of Ideally the entire time you're at home, um, but at least in that year beforehand. This would be great. Is there anything that That I didn't ask you about that I should have? I would just say

29:45 So often People feel like they're stuck. Were there In one place and they're not moving forward. I think when you step into A career break, we can very easily feel like, well, our success metric is now how well our kids behave, or you know, how well they do in school.

30:05 And the reality is our job is To be present. And do our very best to raise Our children aligned with our values. But our success in this chapter is also our own.

30:17 And part of the strategic roadmap that I share with the PowerPaws is being able to set your own personal and professional goals that are that are authentic to you, right? And giving yourself those small metrics of success. Allow you to feel like you're moving forward in a way that will Ultimately. be the right direction and gonna it's gonna lead you to the next step where you're meant to be. Neha, this has been great. Thank you so much for spending the time with us.

30:43 I really appreciate it. Listening to Naha, I'm struck by how many of our decisions, personal and professional, are colored by the opinions of others. Even the most confident and successful among us are impacted by whispering and snickering among old classmates and colleagues. Neha's point is that while our emotional response to that noise is natural, it shouldn't ultimately play into our decisions about our family or about our careers.

31:13 Clarity about what we want for our kids, for our relationships, for our finances can move us past the chatter of others. To me, the parent business is the most important business of all, and the most meaningful. But that doesn't mean I don't aspire for success and meaning in other realms. We each need to make our own choices. One of the great privileges of modern developed society is We can.

31:39 We can thank our mothers and fathers for that. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Assistant producer is Masha Maku Tonina.

32:08 Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Theme music by Ryan Holiday. My head of podcast is Letal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com.

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