Patrick O’Shaughnessy - Creating on Principle - [Invest Like the Best, EP.455]

0:02 And welcome everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy and this is Invest Like the Best. This show is an open ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money. If you enjoy these conversations and want to go deeper. Check out Colossus, our quarterly publication with in-depth profiles of the people shaping business and investing. You can find Colossus along with all of our podcasts at Colossus.com. Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Passitive Sum.

0:29 All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of Positive Sum. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of Positive Sum may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. To learn more, Visit PSUM.vc. Um This week we have an unusual episode because I am on the other side of the mic on my friend David Sendra's new show called David Sendra. In which he interviews me.

1:01 I've chosen for the last five or six years to never be interviewed. Mostly because I love doing what I do so much, shining a light on an investor, a founder, a thinker of some type. Who I can learn from. But after we did the show, I thought it would be a neat and rare opportunity to share with you all.

1:18 How I think about a lot of things as we build invest like the best, Colossus, and Positive Sum. I really hope you enjoy this. Little bit different and special episode with David Senra. And please be sure to go check out his new show where he is interviewing some of the greatest living thinkers, builders, entrepreneurs in the world called David Senra. Make sure you go subscribe to that as well and enjoy the interview. You have this almost

1:42 Obsession with Finding Talented? But not well known or relatively unknown people. And then you

1:52 Essentially spent a lot of time Talking to them, developing relationships and then putting all of your resources behind that person. Yeah. What is going on there?

2:01 Well Uh for how my personality is wired. That is the most exciting possible thing to do. because it means I get to learn about A person and whatever they're doing.

2:13 before other people do, and I like that. I like being at the frontier of what's going on and Learning things that aren't Widely known. I just I just enjoy that. I

2:23 I've read so much and I've spent my whole life just as a constant learning type person. So to find something fresh and new is very exciting to me. And you can usually do that with people like this.

2:33 And then I've just learned about myself that By far my favorite thing in the world is championing other people. That's just what I enjoy doing. If I look back on my life the the sort of like wins that I've had. The the

2:48 Things that if you were to write like a Wikipedia article about me would be like the accolades or the accomplishments. I don't care about those things. I don't think about them. When they happened, they didn't do anything for me. emotionally or otherwise. Um

3:03 I d for whatever reason I just that's just not what I enjoy. But When your success happens or when many other people that I and my team have championed

3:13 Have a win. I feel that. Deep in my like soul and heart and gut. in a way that is just more gratifying to me than anything else in the world. And this extends to my kids, my wife, my friends, my You know, the CEOs of companies that we've invested in.

3:29 Um People that we have on on our Show that we'll Tell the world about. That's the repeated thing that I I love.

3:37 And I also kind of like picking sides. I like saying I like this person. And and And by extension, I like them more than the other available options in this field or this industry or whatever.

3:50 And I just get tremendous joy out of that. So now I'm architecting my life to just be able to do as much of that as possible and and uh I hope I get to do it for a long time. I screenshot of this text was just like many years ago. Somebody was asking me, can't remember who it was now, but they were asking me like what Patrick is like And I was like, Well, positive some is definitely like a way to describe him. I was like, and he doesn't do things for money.

4:13 Like that doesn't mean he's not commercial, like He makes a lot of money. He's gonna continue to make a lot of money, but that's like not the driver behind it. Let me go back to like the cr one of the craziest days of my life. has directly in involved you, right? Like I was like in the middle of this like Five and a half years struggle.

4:29 Of like being obsessed. With Something I know I truly cared. And thought it was really good, but the ex the external world was like No. Like nobody gives a shit about what you're doing, David.

4:42 And you know, I kept doing it. And We have a mutual friend in Sam Hinkey who's gonna get keep keep getting annoyed because I bring him up on every podcast I go on. The two episodes he did with you, like especially the the one about like find your people, I think is the the I go back I go back to that one all the time and the notes that he says in there. And like one of the things that I think about all the time Which again I'm not an investor, but I want

5:06 like access and I want deep relationships with people very high quality people. Yeah. And it's just like he's like, people are power law and the best ones change everything. And so once you actually see that, you're very Almost like ruthless. with who you let have access to. And I think I've I've again

5:22 very ruthless and continue to be ruthless because of like I what I'm you know kinda chasing after But I had like no followers on Twitter at all. and just like tweeting into the oblivion, like no one gave a shit what I'm doing. And one day

5:39 This is why it's like one of one of the first things that I think speaks volumes about you and how you actually live your life. And like I think you've now leaned into this more. Over the last like four years that we've been talking. And I'm like See a bunch of notifications on Twitter. I'm like, I don't get notifications on Twitter. Like, what is this? Uh the only time there used to be the same guy that had my name and he was like a Brazilian MMA fighter. So when he would fight Oh, that's funny. Yeah. It's like but all the streets are in Portuguese, so I don't know what they're talking about. Just not about my podcast.

6:08 And I almost remember verbatim. I should go and find see how much I get the the the Text inside the tweet, correct? But you're like I never find new podcast to listen to. And you know, that's like the best.

6:20 It's like people don't know. It's just like insanely one of the most insanely valuable audiences in the world. If you could like sketch out the average net worth. Of Listeners to this. It's just like mind boggling. And And we're about to see that in action with the story.

6:36 And you're like, I never find new podcasts to listen to. I think David Senter's founders broadcast is excellent. Uh, you should listen to it. And you linked to an episode on Estee Lauder, which is one of my favorite ones. I love that episode, yeah. And You sent me a link. And so at the time it was a paywalled podcast'cause I couldn't figure out the business model because I had no listeners.

6:53 And you know, back then I would get uh you know, an email every time you had a new subscriber. There was not many emails coming in every day. I could count them on two hands, you know? And I was like

7:07 First thing I did, well one the next day I log into my email and it's just All the way down. Just like No no no. That is such an unusual instinct, if I'm being honest. Like I don't think I would have done that.

7:21 What the hell was going on there? You didn't see it as a competition, you didn't what what was d what was happening? The first thing that flashes to my head is, you know, in in my show, I've always ask people the same question at the end of what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? some person on Twitter or something went and compiled every answer. There's five hundred answers or whatever. and categorized them and like made a pie chart of like what people say. And something like two thirds of the answer to this question were the same.

7:48 Which was The kindest thing was some person made a bet on me. before I deserved it. Or like they saw something in me that

7:58 Maybe I didn't even see in myself. They they bet on me before others would. And that was the answer to the the kindest thing. And When I was twenty

8:07 Six. I I became very interested in Uh all of the I I studied philosophy early in life and I've always been interest interested in that stuff, but I became really interested in the religious texts, like all the world's religious texts. And I was I was kind of uh I was in a weird spot in life. I kinda hadn't found anything to do yet. I wasn't that good at anything.

8:29 And I was searching, I was always searching for like what the hell should I do? What the hell's the point of all this? And I found this passage in the Panashots, which as a book is probably the most important book to me. And the Upanishads is this collection of stories from Many a thousand of years ago, that's what I've got. passed down orally through through generations and then eventually written down.

8:49 And I remember getting a stuck by this on this one passage that literally felt like someone hit me in the face with a hammer. And there there's a a line in this passage that basically says something like Like those who feed the hungry protect me. Those who Don't

9:03 And It just felt like a there was like a moment of understanding that happened in my head that up until that point From teenage you know, middle of teenage, I was just nice, sweet boy and then I got kinda hard hardened and

9:17 Um went through a period of life that was tough. And Uh It just it like woke me up that The whole point of this is to help other people. That's it.

9:26 That's the entire point of this. Existence. And From that point forward, that's been my worldview. And so I think it's interesting that like that's probably the thing that most informed my worldview.

9:38 And then the the answer to this question that I love to ask is predominantly Someone bet on me. And like I told you before, the thing I love more than anything is like seeing the potential in somebody Before everyone else. And then helping the world see what I see.

9:53 Like if I can do one thing over and over and over again the rest of my life. It would be audition people to see if there's something that I see that no one else sees. And then help foster that. And show everyone else

10:05 What I think I see. in a way that can be impactful on that person's life. Which is what you described with our experience together. I think in the probably hundreds, I don't know, thousand thousand conversations we've had. I don't think you've ever described it.

10:20 in such an easy to understand impactful way like you just did, where it's just like the whole point of this whole thing is just to help other people. You said before you're ch some chasing something, right? Yeah. I'm not chasing anything. I think it might be interesting. conversation today to talk about our you know, the how how we view what we're doing.

10:39 In in slightly different ways. But I have no goals. I'm not a goals person. I never I've I've written essays about Not having goals. Um the the most red thing I ever wrote. back when I used to do a lot of writing was about

10:51 Uh it was called growth without goals. And So I'm not chasing any particular thing. I don't have a big hairy audacious Yeah. I don't want to put someone on Mars like Elon Meiter.

11:03 Um and I'm not to say not to say that that's a bad thing. I think Some people are goal oriented and that's awesome. But that's not me. And Uh, I guess I've realized that if I have a goal in the abstract sense, it's just this thing over and over and over again. There's this amazing

11:18 Talk that I recommend everyone watch. Um called Inventing on Principle. Have you seen this? Yeah. It was a talk given by a computer scientist named Brett Victor. And He espouses this idea that

11:31 You should find a principle. But you want to hi his principle was uh creators, digital creators should have instant feedback with their creation. So Just like if you paint something with a paintbrush.

11:43 you you get instant feedback. You see the you see the paint immediately. Whereas in computer science, you would have to code over here and compile, and then you'd eventually see a result. There was this gap. And so his principle was collapse that gap. That was his life's mission. And I love that way of thinking, uh about finding one's life's mission is find a principle. Don't don't necessarily have a goal, but find a principle. And

12:04 My principle is like when I see undiscovered talent, it is my obligation. To Do this thing. to get to know them, to learn from them, to start introducing them to people, to start I don't need to get anything out of it. Like what I get out of it is the thing.

12:17 It's that's the point. Well you're one of the few people in the world that have actually identified this organizing principle and then built us a wonderful business around that. And I think to you like the media we talked about this a million times, but like the media and the vesting are not two separate things. They're the exact if you actually know Patrick and what is important to him Like They are the exact same

12:36 T. It's taken me a long time to articulate that principle. And that's okay. Like don't don't get discouraged if you don't Watch Brad Victor's talk and Can't

12:46 Can name your principal an hour later, like it takes time. But You know you found your principal. When It starts informing

12:54 Literally every decision you make. Every day with your time. And That's what it does for me and and it becomes Universal, like

13:03 on my team for example were sixteen people, something like that. Now this is how I think about my team. It's like who who can I Find And see something in and bring them in and then

13:14 make their career explode, hopefully in in an amazing way. And so It can be investing, it can be Just In friendship it can be

13:23 on your team. Like a good principle can be applied everywhere. And that's why I think this idea is so powerful to Do the work to find your principle for invention. And uh I have no idea where it will take us. That's the other fun part is One of the reasons I don't like goals is

13:38 I think very talented people When they set a goal. They tend to do it. And that's why goals are interesting to lots of people is it's a great way to Make progress.

13:48 But I I find it unexciting because the second you set some big goal, you kinda know what you're what's gonna happen. 'Cause you go do it and You know the road in front of you and you have blinders on. And

14:00 I don't actually like having blinders on. I like that worked for me has come out of the periphery. You know, Sam Hinke text me about you. Like I wasn't looking for a podcaster to promote. Yeah. That that you were not You were not the uh result of some goal that I was seeking.

14:17 You were just something that like came out of the left field. And everything interesting I've ever done. Came out of left field. And It's which is why I don't know

14:26 Long term goals or short term goals. Is that opportunity just I'm very open to opportunity along this principle. And And so I'm very enamored of this idea for how to live.

14:36 At what age did you stop having goals? Well, this essay that I wrote I wrote Uh I'm forty now. I wrote when I was twenty eight.

14:46 Because I wrote it. I rode it on the train. I used to commute back and forth from New York City to Stanford, Connecticut. And I was I was about to have my first child, my son Pierce.

14:58 And My dad, when I was twenty one. handed me this book of letters that he had been writing to me since I was born. And a lot of them were when I was like a baby, like the and I've done the same thing for my son and it's the same pattern. There's tons of letters in the first couple of years. And then it gets more spaced out. And now I do one on every on his birthday every year and things like this. And I'm I'm gonna give him

15:20 A packet of letters as well when he turns twenty one. And I remember w starting starting this process of wanting to write him a letter before he was born. And it gets you it g it got me wondering about like what Is good parenting. Like what do I want to do as a dad?

15:33 And I believe deeply in Showing not telling. Like I think Maybe that's another reason I don't like being interviewed. It's so it's I don't like telling. Um

15:43 I'd rather just set an example. But Um I I was thinking what example do I want to show you. Pierce and and then

15:51 I don't remember my exact chainum. thinking but it ended up in this idea of of Everything I just talked about. Um So it was born of wondering like what example do I want my son to see?

16:03 and and emulate'cause I've I'm sure you've learned this about kids as well. They don't do what you tell them, they they do what you do. They just copy you. And so how you behave. is how you parent.

16:15 And I was thinking about that. At age twenty eight. and and and wrote this thing. Um And so that's how that's where it came from. So right right around then is probably the first time I then thought it.

16:25 From twenty eight till you realize this is gonna be the the simple organizing principle of how I'm gonna live my life and spend my time. I I I actually don't think I Could have articulated the principle as I just laid it out until very recently. So Right.

16:41 I could have told you about the power of Brett Victor's inventing on principle. Starting Ten years ago. Or whenever I I first saw it.

16:50 But I would not have been able to articulate the principle to you. Cleanly. And That's because it's hard. It's hard to pin For reasons really hard to pin this down. Interestingly

17:01 I o I've never met Brett Victor. If he's listening, I'd love to meet him. Uh, I owe him an enormous debt of gratitude for one of my bigger career successes, which was Uh. I took his principle, not my own, but his principle of instant feedback.

17:16 and applied it as the primary design principle to software that I built in my last business, which worked really well. The software itself worked really well. The business grew a lot because of the software. And the software worked well because of his principle. of instant feedback on choices being made by the user showing up in in this case in a visual that described their portfolio. And so I t I actually s before I had my own principle, I stole his principle to great effect, which just goes to show the power of a great principle. But I couldn't have articulated it for a really long time. And I can't explain to you Why that's the case. I don't know.

17:51 It's a great line from Alan Watts that I always think about. He's like People think that life is meant to be understood. No life is meant to be experienced. And I I find that in my own self. Like I do think I can't explain. I like I have like a lot of Willy like foo foo part of I always say line you laugh, but like

18:08 I have this like willy foo foo part of it. It's just like I just go off feeling like an intuition for like a lot of things that I do and like I don't want to have to like describe why. I believe this to be true, or why I want to um like pursue this path or why I think this idea is interesting. I think it's just a just something inside of me that like language cannot describe. I don't know if it was Alan Watts that said this. Uh he was he had such a way with words that maybe it was him. Um it might have been Joseph Campbell, but something to the effect of um We're not searching for the meaning of life. But for the feeling of being alive.

18:40 And I think that's correct. And I think a great uh if you play red light, green light with Principal as you search for your principle. I think you Could do a lot worse than

18:51 Knowing you're on the right path. If the thing makes you feel more alive. Like if you go in the direction And people know what it's like to feel alive. They can call to mind these moments In their lives where they felt the most present and alive. And

19:04 using those as a signpost to what your principal might be or what you should be doing. I think is a really a really great thing, and that's certainly how I I remember that l reading that line fifteen years ago as well. And then starting to chase the feeling of being alive, not not a goal. But just that feeling.

19:20 And Um everyone can answer this question, by the way. It's it's a really It's a great way to have a conversation with someone is to kind of feel ask them where they feel this and And then also why they're not Doing more of whatever the answer happens to be.

19:35 funny circumstance of humans that They kinda know what makes them feel most alive and then they don't do it most of their lives. That's a very interesting question. What's your guess on why they don't? Usually it's it's it's simple, which is um fear. Yeah. Fear that

19:50 by pursuing an original path. I have this idea that uh the best story always wins. And I sp actually spent the last couple of months like really trying to figure out what what what do I think best story means.

20:02 And the best. Principles for a great story that I could come up with were Originality. Hards. And transformation.

20:09 And If you dig into originality That one is really interesting to me because People don't pursue original past usually because they're fearful.

20:21 Um Of the unknown. 'cause an original path by definition. means it's all gonna be on you. And

20:28 That's uncomfortable. And hard. Um And because an original path usually means leaving a very comfortable current. Existence.

20:36 In a way that's scary. And so I think When you really drill people on why not? Um Th they'll give reasons that add up to I'm I'm afraid.

20:47 And That's hard to get over. You've said to me before that you used to be a masochist for introspection. First of all, when did that stop? And then do you think that helped you find

20:59 This Organizing principle for your life. It definitely helped me find it. Because I wanted To not waste life. When I was a little kid.

21:09 Young. uh five years old or whatever. I have I had this just crippling fear of death, like I remember my mom and dad would have to like sit and hold my hand for me to fall asleep.

21:20 'Cause and and the reason was I would just sit there like spiraling on this crazy idea. Maybe this is why I studied philosophy. That like some day I would not exist. And that just

21:32 Freaked me out. And did for decades. So that probably kicked off this Introspective. period of my life where

21:41 I was very curious about Philosophical traditions and religious traditions and metaphysics and all this kind of stuff. Because I wanted to know what the hell is the point of all this. Like What's the point? What's the meaning? What's the purpose? And otherwise it's just terrifying, right? That we're here for a blip and then gone. It's just terrifying. I try not to sit down and think about it too much. In fact, I'd like to move on.

22:04 But that kicked off this period of yeah, I wanted to understand myself and others. And so I was very introspective, and of course that made me want to not live a dull life and I was very scared of just like living this train track existence. So yeah, it did help a lot. But interestingly, once I have clicked into

22:22 I think Understanding what I want to do. I don't think about it at all. And Now

22:29 I have very little introspection left in my life. I used to be so obsessed with all of these. personality tests and what they mean and Psychology and um seeking and like all the modern methods for doing that. And I've I've kinda just lost

22:44 Not total interest, but I've lost a lot of my interest in that. You solve the problem that you were using it, maybe intersection was the tool, and then like you don't need to use the tool once the job is done. Yeah, maybe. That's right. You mentioned earlier that that we have different approaches and then you want to talk about the What do you think like I'm always curious again, like some of the stuff I should not say on a podcast. But um I'm always curious, like

23:06 People that know me well. Yeah. Like what is their interpretation of like Their view of me that is different. Than my own.

23:16 So like what do you think my organizing principle is? You're organizing. Principle. If yours is just helping as many people as possible and this is what life's about, and then you have all these resources to do so through media and capital and relationships. Just to clarify, it's not helping as many people as possible. It is

23:34 Trying to see Enormous. Like Not yet realized potential. Okay.

23:41 And My principle is that is when I do, it is my obligation. With nothing if maybe I invest, maybe the maybe I end up benefiting, but that's not the point. that it's my obligation to tell people about it. and to help foster it into existence.

23:57 Um So You know, important difference. Well, it took me a decade to state my organizing principle. I'm not gonna be able to name yours in a minute. But

24:07 You're probably the most single minded and devoted to What they do person that I know. In the sense that

24:15 Most people that have achieved Uh A level of success. in their field or in their job that you have. begin to br branch the the world when that happens pulls you into this branching exercise where you end up doing lots of different stuff.

24:30 Uh And that you know, you end up monetizing in different ways or going into different lines of business or Changing how you do things, expanding. The single mindedness that you that you have is quite Distinct from

24:43 The people that I know. And Um You know, why are you doing it? I mean, I think you've talked about this

24:51 certainly in private with me, but also in public about Yeah, you came from We came from opposite circumstances. Like I was I was born on proverbial third base or sliding into home.

25:03 I come from a history of Extremely successful entrepreneurs. My great grandfather who had the best name ever, his name was Ignatius Aloysius O'Shaughnessy. Everyone called him IA. He was I think the thirteenth of thirteen kids.

25:17 He was one of the richest men in in the United States. He was an oil wildcatter first First oil uh hole he ever drilled, I think still pumps oil to this day. in uh in the Midwest. And so he was a Giant he was broken up in the antitrust, you know, in the Rockefeller antitrust stuff around standard oil.

25:36 And our family takes great inspiration from him because he made this fortune. He did not give a shit about money. Uh He didn't really spend it. He gave away Basically all of it in his lifetime, mostly anonymously. My dad tells the story about being at his funeral when my dad was eleven.

25:53 And all these people were there and no one knew who they were. And my dad would go up to one and be like, Who are you and and they would say, Well, Mr. IA, you know, I cut his hair and he put my kids through college and bought me a house, or Mr. IA did this or this, this. And we didn't even know where it went. And I have benefited from this Tremendous. history of Business success.

26:14 in my f in and around my family forever. Whereas you came from an opera a very different set of circumstances. Our friend Sam has this idea of Um, there's founders of businesses and there's founders of families. And I think of you as the founder of your family.

26:29 And I think that's m incredibly powerful. And I think is your greatest accomplishment that uh things repeat through the generations. You're fond of saying the story of the father and the son are you know are the same. And

26:41 It takes Tremendous Um character will power talent, lots of stuff to break from that family tradition and go a new direction, which you've done.

26:53 Which I just think is Remarkable. And I don't know if that's the underlying why that you refused to let your family continue to go the same direction that it had gone up until you were born.

27:05 And Um you went As Sam would say, and we've talked about you went searching for mentors'cause you didn't have them in your life, you found them in books. And in founders and you've been telling everybody about it ever since. And it worked it worked for you to change your life and Now we know based on your work that your work is now changing other people's lives in that same way that you changed your own first.

27:26 But you were the first beneficiary of it. And So what is your principle or why? I don't know, maybe it's that you can You don't have to just keep going the same direction that you were given. You can break off and

27:38 And found something new. Um I think that's pretty amazing. I think there's a lot of times I I really resonate what you said when you were you found that book and you're like you know, this this paragraph, this sentence just like hits you. With like a hammer to the face. Mm-hmm.

27:53 This is also like a you know. I use podcasts for this. I reading mainly it's like I think people are f rushing through things. Too too fast. You know, I'm famous for only listening to podcasts on one X.

28:06 Everybody's like, Oh, you read a lot, you must read fast. I'm like, Yeah, twenty five pages an hour fast. Like I'm not speed reading here. I think I want understanding. And like I want understanding of how things actually are, not how humans say they are. And humans

28:23 Not only are we lying to ourselves constantly, which if if you're lying to yourself, like of course you're lying to other people about like why you're doing what you're doing or what you're doing uh what it is that you're doing. And this is why I like Autobiographies and biography so much because in many cases the person's like long past dead, or they're older and they're just like I'm writing this book when I'm eighty, like I have no I'm not incentivized to to lie. And like here's the stuff I went through. And the trouble with whatever being uh what kind of dad you are, trouble with women, trouble with business, would you realize like there's nothing that you're experiencing that somebody else hasn't already experienced.

28:55 And so what I want is like true understanding of like humanity as it is, human nature as it is. And the world that we're creating And then I use

29:08 Their stories It's not really about them. It's like About you. And I think this I don't think this is me. I think like when you watch a great movie, you hear a great story, you hear a great song.

29:19 You're not thinking about like Oh, this happened at Taylor Swift. You're like, Oh, I had that same experience in this relationship, or I went through this exact same thing. And it's like a form of understanding. Like I'm in the middle of this right now. We were just having lunch upstairs. And Yeah, essentially like a I'm just like,

29:35 in the middle of like trying to find the story that I want to tell. with this book That grabbed hold of me. For six months. And I told you about this is Bruce Feensing's autobiography. I'm not even I don't even listen to his music.

29:47 And I told you about this right like right when I I was like there's stuff in this book So like this dude looks like he crawled inside of my mind. Mm. And like Especially in regards to how he views his work and the impact that it has on it's like

30:00 That is not a sentence. That is not a paragraph. That is like That was made for me to read this at this point. And it's insanely powerful. And to the point where like It's like a drug. You know, I I told you like Right away.

30:16 Again, I need to like give you credit. We'll we'll go back to this drug and understanding because like Think this is really important about like people understanding why I wanna talk to certain people and why like I was freaking adamant and like kind of pushing you on this and we rescheduled a few times and like I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't for you. Not only because the the the the platform that you gave Founders, right?

30:37 uh the podcast. Then that crazy episode. that we did together, which I think is like we're never like that was like lightning in the bottom. It was, yeah. It's invest like the best. The the the title's Passion and Pain. And you know, people were always like, Oh, like did you guys sketch this? I was like, No, Patrick doesn't sketch things out like that.

30:55 He's like Uh we built a friendship. I want you on the show. Yeah. Like I don't think you told me anything we're gonna talk about.

31:03 I do remember you texting me a few hours, we're supposed to do it like ten AM. You're like, hey, I got pushed back, can we do one PM? I'm like, Oh no, my brain only works in the morning. So I took like a quick power nap. And I'm in this booth. We didn't do video, but you can see me, and I'm in like this phone booth that I put in my house that I was the only person these phone booths are all in these offices and I had one. They came and delivered to my house and like, you know, we've never delivered to somebody's house before. I was like, This isn't a phone booth, this is a podcast studio. This makes perfect sense to me. Um And then we just had that conversation and you know, that was like a a a huge inflection point. Like that weekend that happened after that was like one of the craziest weekends uh of my entire life. But then you push me For years. You're like

31:42 You should be recording conversations, you should be recording these conversations. What are you doing? And I was like, No, no, it's a distraction. I don't want to do it. I wanna do it. Um And then you know, I've told the story a bunch, but I think like it's really important where like I would not be doing what I'm doing right now at this very moment. If We didn't have me and you had this dinner with Daniel Eck in New York.

32:01 It lasted four hours. I know you don't like when I tell you how long I talk to people. This is one of David's quirks. He tells you how long he talked to someone every time. Yeah, because I'm not interested in superficial at all. Like I can't tell you who it was. I just had dinner. How long was it? It was an incredible dinner the first time we met.

32:24 And You know it's uh it was unexpected. Uh requested by them. And Three hours into this.

32:32 This person's like I have Told you things. No one else knows about me. The very first time I met them. So it's just I just I have no I have no interest in the superficial and I think you have to talk for a long time because it takes a little while to get like warmed up and like feel the person out. And this is why what you said earlier is so important. Like

32:49 fewer deep relationships. Dude, think about the crazy conversation which we're not gonna, you know, relive, but like me and you just had an insane two and a half hour conversation at in Tel Aviv. I like Two in the morning. You know that to have that level of honesty and conversation, like you would have to have like years of like getting to know somebody. So I do think

33:09 I also think you're providing people with uh sort of Set of ingredients. Maybe through these episodes and conversations. But that it's important that people then go make their own recipe. Like you shouldn't just want to live like person XYZ. A lot of people you cover.

33:23 have the same pitfalls in their lives. And one might be tempted to think Those pitfalls are just inevitable. Byproducts of success. But I hate that kind of thinking. I think

33:34 Like screw base rates. I don't care what the base I never care what the base rate is. Like the whole the most interesting stuff is outliers by definition. So I don't care what happened to everybody else. I don't care if You know, those common pitfalls like I think it's important that people take their own make their own recipe from the ingredients that that you've offered him from all these amazing

33:52 And interesting lives that you've studied, and you're just doing that for yourself. Like that's that's been the search. I think it is for myself. You are interested in other people, and frankly in a way that I am not. And I've seen it's like very real and it happens every time we're with other people together. I'm like, Oh, he like actually wants to know. Where like I'm on the search of like how the hell do I not have a terrible life? This is why I think m the skill set that gets you to where you are. Like so many people plateau and like I'm not I'm not interested in plateauing. Like I'm not interested in, you know, mailing it in. Like I'm interested in and I want to get to my end of my life. Like I don't want to tap dance.

34:23 On a giant reservoir potential. I want like there is there was nothing more that I could have possibly done with my skill set and everything else. Like I wanna figure out how to get the most out of that. And this is there's something you just said about like Autography. Where he's like people don't come to rock shows.

34:41 Or to to to concerts, rather. To learn. They come to remind them for you to remind them of stuff they already know is true. Yeah. And I think

34:49 Yeah, you're gonna learn, like there's obviously creative ideas on how to build a company's in a in a four hundred page biography of somebody. But what you're gonna realize is like there's a lot of stuff that you already know. And you know is true. And either you haven't applied it or you forgot it or you did it for a little bit and you need a reminder. This is why you mean me and you always describe founders like it's church. It's church for entrepreneurs in that church. I think the animating interesting question is

35:13 You read these stories. All of which back to my my idea of originality, hardship transformation, you know, best story wins. That Uh Originality is

35:23 You're inspiring people to wonder What's my thing? Everyone's got something, I guarantee it. My favorite thing to search for in conversation. Especially if someone's not yet doing it.

35:33 Which is kind of the same the same search for un unrealized potential or something. Everyone has a thing that for whatever set of reasons their life experiences, the how they're wired. They're naturally endowed gifts. And searching for that thing is really interesting and really hard. And I think

35:48 That's what founders continues to do for me. Is show me examples of people that went to the trouble to find their thing. And then once they found it. Foster it. the rest of their life.

35:59 And again, once you find your thing, the second thing is hardship. It's not supposed to be easy like nothing meaningful is easy. And that's fine. And and then once you learn that I think that's when it gets really fun is that the mi I I was th I always have this feeling that the second something just feels easy and I'm kinda going through the motions, I get really uncomfortable. and want to try to push myself in in some new way.

36:21 Um but I think that's what Founders does so well is it shows It's what back to the very beginning of our relationship and why I sent that tweet out and why we It's because it was so unique and so different and inspiring. Um

36:36 So I think that's a powerful thing to do for people. I I think when I I say it's like what is my organizing principle? It's like I want to understand things. Well I want to things. I want to understand people. And to understand people, you have to like go deep and like

36:49 What happened like where were you born? What was going on? Like What was this experience like? You have to just spend a lot of time asking them questions and having these like long deep conversations. And I don't think I mean, there's a handful of people that I feel I truly know. It takes a a long time. It takes you know, at least a hundred Hours of conversation.

37:06 You know, on the on the low end. You mentioned you said organizing principle, uh which I think it's I think that's correct. Just to push'cause this could now be something we talk about for the next couple of years. Which is probably how long it'll take to articulate. That's different than what is your principle for invention.

37:24 So back to the idea of inventing on principle. The principle should be Something that when you see it violated, it is your obligation to go correct it. And that that Correction is an act of service.

37:36 for for other people, not for yourself. It's not about you. And That's what makes the idea so powerful. I agree that that's your organizing. Principle that's like

37:46 the thing behind why you're doing what you're doing. It will be fun to try to pin down what the principle is for invention'cause that's what you're doing. You're making new things. Which is the most Fun and rewarding.

37:59 experience of a lifetime. And I remember the the the little opening quote. of his life's writing by Joseph Campbell that was done by his niece or something.

38:10 The little opening quote in the book is the privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. And the people that make things that are the most interesting, those things are a reflection of themselves. That's the most sustainable form of creation. If if you can sort of spill yourself onto the thing you're making. Which benefits others the thing, you know. being of service to other people in some way. I think that's the thing that we're

38:32 Actually, I think that's what we're all after. I think what we all want is to make participate in the act of creation. On it. In in in a small way that reflects the active creation going on at a grand scale.

38:45 And to have that experience. Uh In so doing. I

38:51 pouring oneself out into the thing and then having the thing be of service to others. That's a that's an amazing feeling. And It's hard to get going, but once you do, I don't know anybody, I've never met anybody. that's gone that's ex had that experience

39:06 And gone back. Not once. And it's because I think it's the thing that we're we're all after, and that's what you're doing too with this show. I think like one of the biggest things I wanna avoid is like Finding the thing.

39:20 Doing the thing. Being great at the thing. And then like Something you do causes that to stop. Where like you know, I'm kind of obsessed with like the sustained success.

39:32 uh you know, like I don't wanna, you know, have this huge spike. I don't want to flame out. Like I'd rather just do like the slow build decade after decade get better and like keep doing it. This is why Essentially I read fiction and I read biography. Like that's basically what I read.

39:46 And like the biography part is like okay, what happens after They got what they wanted. And the the conversations I've been been having, a lot of these have been having uh uh on camera, but after, off camera, I'm always asking because most of these people are older and more experienced and obviously more successful, smarter and everything else, just like What uh what I have to worry about, like what am I not seeing? Так казне чи стоп.

40:08 Like I like what I'm doing. I love it. What am I doing that would cause it to like for me to not be able to do that? And there's like interesting like human questions about this. Well the trap. Is

40:22 Before you do the work to figure out the thing That makes you feel alive. There's this great line in the um in the Upanishads, the i it's always referred to abiding joy. Like joy that doesn't

40:34 doesn't run out. You don't use it up. Like you use up so many resources. As you use it, you get more of it. That's abiding joy. The

40:43 target for most people becomes the traditional money, power, fame because those are worldly proxies for success. That we all recognize. And our For sure to some degree true. It's hard to get a lot of those three things without being successful in some way.

40:59 I think those those things are huge traps because They be cut Once you start to get one It's the thing you start chasing.

41:08 And It's different than chasing the feeling of being alive, that abiding joy of That that will always guide you well. Always. And

41:21 Money power fame will not. And so I think the answer to your question or your worry It's just like make sure you're chasing the feeling of being alive. And That the intuition around that and you'll be fine.

41:34 And It's when we it's when we get sucked, and I've of course have just like everybody else. Like I've been intoxicated by those three things at various points in my life. And That's'cause they're intoxicating. It feels really good the first time you have a lot of one of those things. You're over fame, though.

41:51 You don't like it. Yeah, I don't. I I don't I think it is uh I wish I could do what I do. And You know that thing in Men in Black where they where they flash you in the face? I wish like at the end of each of my episodes it like flash people in the face and they forgot who I was and they didn't recognize me. I've been thinking about this lately. It's like

42:12 would I actually You're limited you have limited time to chure. Like and every day, like what it what Where do I Like spend this.

42:21 And it's like Three things. Health, work, relationships. And I can't think of anything else. That I care deeply about health has to come first because if we are sick or we have no energy, like we can't do anything else. But other than that, like if you look at like how I spend my time, it's essentially just like. I'm building w I'm creating work that I hope it it makes other somebody else's life better.

42:38 that I truly am like the abiding joy. Like Uh chasing that. And then I'm just deeply interested in a shocking way. of like having really strong relationships with other people and like

42:50 I was not like that ten years ago. My experience actually I would disagree with the order. Um I had I had tremendously bad health problems for a long time. And Uh

43:00 I don't anymore. Thankfully. But I'm convinced, I'm certain that the reason is that I finally got my work and my relationships correct. And that

43:10 When you are doing something you you love. And have great Core relationships. all of a sudden magically your health gets way better. And

43:19 During that time when I had lots of health problems. I ate unbelievably well. I worked out every day. I d I did all I I did everything you're supposed to do. Yeah. And And then somehow was crazy about it. I kept daily logs of all this stuff like Th there's nothing I didn't try. There's no

43:35 Willie Foo Foo thing that I didn't that I didn't explore. I tried everything to solve some of these problems. And I couldn't solve them. And at one point I felt resigned to just like I guess Like I'm just one of those people that's gonna be sick. in life. Like that's just how it's gonna be for me.

43:52 And It it cannot be coincidence that when I finally started doing the thing that I think I was meant to do with my life. And Spend all my time with the people

44:03 And and focused on the relationships that all of a sudden my health got better. So Now of course I still invest a lot in my health. Um Not. arguing with the three the three key things. But I th I found that an interesting experience in life.

44:15 The body keeps the score. The fame part is interesting because this is something that uh like you ne uniquely understand and I can talk to you about It's not to be known for the sake of being known. Like these like reality TV show people. That that's weird. Like I want my work to be so good that it can't help but like become known and like talked about and like spread because they find value in it. It this is just human nature. Like if you find value in a song, a movie, a book, a podcast, like

44:42 No one keeps that to themselves. A restaurant, like they we we are compelled to tell other people about the things that we like. What I would say is like The reason I think I view it differently than you. And you can tell me if I'm wrong or whatever. It's just like

44:54 It's The relationships that you get to build as a result of you being easy to understand to other people. So like no one's gonna stumble upon any of my work and be like

45:06 What is this guy actually interested in? Like it's like very clear. Yeah, it's quite clear, very obvious. And then if you think there's like some kind of like uh unique insight, but my my my point being is it's like I think this comes down to a a principle of like all like why are people all the people that I've studied Either a conversation with or or um Or right about it's like Why are they great at what they do? And it has to do with I do think the most fundamentally important thing that

45:33 you do in life is choose who's around you. Like Your friends, people you work for. Like your company is the people that like that you are able to recruit and to to build. And so like what I couldn't understand is like I was not interested at all In relationships.

45:48 With other people? I would say like Ten years ago, somewhere like there, where now it's like I invest a ton. In that element. I think it's like the the part I'm very excited about my work. That that that it's never diminished, but like I think it's the part that I'm most excited about. And have been for like quite a while.

46:07 On your deathbed. That's what you're gonna be thinking about. Not Your five thousand podcasts. You're not gonna lie there and think.

46:14 But that's surprising to me, Patrick. Like This is why I I this freaking Bruce Recent book can't is like messing with me so much. It's because I'm I'm seeing this he's seventy he's sixty six when he writes it, so sixty seven, something like that. Now he's like seventy six and I I hur just heard him on another interview talking about it. Where The first half of the book is like this guy Like

46:33 has one of the most insane work ethics that you've ever ever seen. And it's channeled into one thing and he has no doubt since he was fifteen that this is what he's gonna do. And He realises that He does not have the skill set.

46:46 Or he has all these things that He has not developed a skill set. To handle. Like I I'm just gonna like

46:53 Try to like explain this. We just record a whole podcast about it, so maybe like This will hopefully make sense. It was surprising to me. The this man who is psychopathically obsessed with professional achievement.

47:07 And fame and stardom and all the stuff that he was very upfront about what he wanted from a young age. Okay. He gets it, which I'll get to in a minute. And his final realisation Is

47:21 Life is more important. Work is a part of life. It is not my full life. Life. Is life.

47:29 It is important, his biggest struggle was. He Becomes famous. Is uh this is what Jimmy Iveen told me because like I I got to meet him And right when I was leaving his house, he's like, You need to go watch the new Bruce Speenstein movie.

47:42 And It's got delivering me from nowhere. And I thought it was gonna be like a biography of his life. That's not what it's uh at all. It is like a dark. I was shocked. Dark movie.

47:51 This is the key to understanding. Unbelievable Like Terrible environment born into. You're you're gonna there's gonna be two reactions there. You're just like, This is what life is, I'm gonna accept it, or you're going to have this like maniacal will to change things. He has the maniacal will. He's like, I don't wanna live like that. My his dad was one of the worst human beings to him.

48:12 He takes all that pain. channels it into a work ethic. That is He wanted

48:20 Gets what he wants, which is Now he's everybody knows who he is. He's world war fame worldwide famous, he's rich. Everything. And then immediately drops in his mid thirties into the deepest depression of his life. And what he realizes is That's not

48:36 What I actually wanted. And what he ch this is what it goes by. I told I I think I told you this upstairs, or maybe I even mentioned this. Like had a very interesting conversation dinner last night. And it started with What is the lie that you're telling yourself? And me and another person going around that for quite a while. And it was very fascinating. And the lie

48:54 That Bruce was telling himself. was that work was the most important, that becoming a rock star was the most important, fame was the most important. And what he realizes is that his parents had so messed up his emotional well being, he was incapable of doing the thing that he wanted. In his case He wanted desperately wanted to Had kids.

49:14 To be married. to break the chain like we mentioned earlier of like My kids will not experience what I he experienced. And he was even writing he has a whole album. Fantasizing.

49:26 About this before he's Able to do it. And what he would run into is the same thing where like He it's it's gotta be such a crazy juxtaposition of like

49:37 He's on stage in front of forty thousand people, they all love him. And yet, like in his case, he talks a lot about women in the book. He would get close to a woman. He'd have some kind of feelings for her. They'd have f she'd have feelings for him back, okay?

49:49 Then he immediately goes. Why do you love me? Like I am so fucked up. And undeserving. So the fact that you love me.

49:57 means there's something wrong with you and I'm going to hurt you because you love me. And then he'd run away. And then he'd get into another relationship. And it'd go over and over and over again. And he didn't realize the source of his depression was

50:10 He didn't know what he actually wanted. Mm. And he didn't have the skill set and then he winds up meeting the the woman He's married, by the way.

50:17 meeting another woman who's in his band. And getting divorced because he realizes like this is the person that can Like I'm willing to do the work necessary to fix Which is like a crazy

50:29 thing and then he goes through twenty five years of therapy and in some kind in some cases he has to get on antidepressants and like he's unbelievably honest from what what to places like from thirty five until sixty seven when he's Writing his book. And so I think there's all kinds of lessons in there from Personal. Like

50:46 what do you actually want in your personal life, like the kind of relationships you want with friends, romantic partners, whatever the case is. But this is what I meant about like I want to make sure I develop the skill set not just to stay where I am. And you've pushed me in this direction a million times. You're like stop doing everything yourself. Like we have a million conversations just like

51:03 Why don't you have a team? Why don't you do all this? It's like it makes sense why I don't have a team'cause I don't fucking trust anybody. Like That's obvious like why that is. And I do think I'm like getting better and better and better. Like Even the stuff me and you talk about, like Can you do zero chance.

51:17 I would have let that come out of my mouth. Zero. I mean you tell Bruce's story, but I think you're talking about Yourself to a large degree. I know. And

51:26 Maybe my arrival at the Uh The aspiration. I'm by no means perfect. to

51:34 be more service oriented. My grandmother who just passed away. She was ninety nine. Um banged on me. Every time she'd see me, this would be the topic of conversation. She's like Yeah, yeah, yeah, congratulations on all the on all the success. Like who gives a shit? Like

51:48 What are you doing for other people? That's what I want to know. And I'm convinced that's the way out. That

51:55 Uh I think I like you and like So many listening Have their set of demons that they've struggled with.

52:03 And the path out is others. Simple as that. And it sounds like Bruce. I don't know, Bruce, I'm not I'm not a huge Springsteen fan. I'd love to I got I need to read the book, obviously.

52:15 But that seems like a tale as old as time. But this is something I learned from you, this idea of making sure that your source of fuel and energy and ambition is generative. And not negative. And I do think like Like

52:26 the conversation I've had with you, with Sam Hinky, she's really important. It's like I'm getting to the point where like I push myself because I love it. I'm way nicer to myself than I have ever been because I'm like, Oh, this doesn't serve me anymore. Like I'm not going like I the I will be successful because I love it and if I love it, I'll do it all the time. And if I do it all the time, I'll get really good at it and and if I get really good at it, money will come as a result because it's an act of service. Yeah, the clean the clean fuel, dirty fuel

52:50 Debate is really interesting. And look a lot of Mm. many, most, nearly all of the books that you've read were people that were fueled by dirty fuel. Dirty fuel works really well, but it consumes

53:05 The person in a way that I would far rather die you know, nobody knowing who I am with no worldly, you know, success. But having People

53:17 That Could count on me, rely on me. I was faithful to, that I was loyal to. Like that's what I want at the end. So if you can work backwards from that, that's another cool way to think about it. Like working backwards from what you hope is true is a simple heuristic for for finding what to do well. And I think

53:35 Yeah, I think uh I can't wait to read the book. This is why I think you know, reading a bunch at the same time or not at the same time, but like having a lot to to pull from. Uh it's like I'm reading the Bruce Recine book. But then you realize like Another person with like super hero

53:50 Work ethic and drive. And ambition was the LBJ, which Robert Carl Brilliantly. Right about.

53:59 And you realize Bruce is is generative. It took him a while to figure it out, but like he got uh on the other side of that where LBJ never did. Mm. And even though their source is very similar. Like there's a great story Robert Caro tells in one of his books where like

54:13 Um You know. OBJ finally gets to Washington. I think he's like a I don't even remember what the job he has. He has no money. It's called

54:22 Um, and it'd be like the sun would be coming up at like five thirty and this woman that worked with them would always see him like running everywhere. And they just assumed, Oh, he's got no coat, he got no money. He's like running to warm himself up and then the summer comes and he's still running. And obviously Robert Cro's a master with words and and storytelling. And his whole point was like of course he was running. He like finally made it to the spot,'cause he was talking about we want to be president since like third grade or something.

54:46 He's like he finally made it to the city, to the spot of where all his dreams are. And like he was going to run after his dreams. There's so much. In between these two stories. One guy's a rock star, one becomes one guy becomes president of the United States. And it's the same thing. One is generative. One is

55:02 unbelievably manipulative and you know, probably not a guy that you'd like want in your life to be around. And so I think also learning from like great Examples. But almost like seeing like, Oh, I don't want to be that way. This is like it's something like you know, one of the best things about like our friendship is like

55:18 I actually want to like let people in. Like I want to have friends. And like deep friends. And in the past, like That wasn't

55:27 An important like Thing to me. Mm-hmm. Agreed. This conversation is now therapy for Dave. But this is my this is my point was like when when I wanted to sit down with you, like there's a bunch of things I want to talk about, but it's like I also want to like kinda like Talk about the stuff that like a we normally talk about.

55:43 The reason I think it's important for like me and you too is like how much of our ideas actually came from the creation of the podcast. Like You think about all like All the different ideas and topics.

55:55 And things that you've learned. as a byproduct of just making this thing. And then the unfair advantage that we have is essentially like we'd be like professional learner. You know, like You you get to study somebody, you get to have a multi-hour conversation with them, and like, oh wait, he said that, or she said this. Like, I'm gonna take that idea. Who have you grabbed ideas from and like who do you let like influence your The way you think.

56:17 I mean How long you got? Uh I I could easily rattle off.

56:23 Fifty. Some of the most important ideas and where they came from. To take the the simplest example possible. In the early days of the show, this is a very like practical real world example.

56:38 Uh If you take the ideas that I got from Daniel, who you mentioned before at Spotify about How to build software. Uh from Brett Victor. Who I mentioned before about

56:49 this principle for great software and what it looks like. And from a guy named Chain Puttagunta at Benchmark, uh one of the partners at a a very storied investing firm called Benchmark. Who taught me how to sell software, just those three guys. I basically just stole their ideas.

57:06 And applied it to my situation. And it worked. To a spectacular degree. I didn't know anything about software. I had never built software before. I had an amazing team at the time that you know, was able to pull it off.

57:18 But The direction of the resources And what to do strategically. Just came from asking You know, those three or three of the greatest in the world at what they do

57:29 Uh, how do I do this? There's somebody that can help me. And then not thinking too hard about what they tell me and just doing it. And having it work. And and so there's a tiny example, you know, three people. And you have all three on your podcast?

57:42 Um I've never met Brett. Okay, so two out of three. Yeah. These ideas came from conversations that you had on the podcast? No. The I didn't ask them this stuff on on the podcast. But in time spent. Just Offline. With them.

57:56 I'll never forget I was in Benchmark's office in San Francisco. showing Chain the demo, the demo I'd show him the demos. And um It was amazing. He'd give me feedback. They weren't an investor in my business or anything. He was just doing it out of You know, just the goodness of his heart, I guess.

58:12 And uh same thing with the others. Just And the three there's many many more than three people that contributed to to that project. uh that that influenced me and taught me things. But yeah, mostly just Offline asking questions. But

58:25 But I did interview Chain and Several times and Daniel several times. This goes back to The the beneficial like nature of like relationships. Like you start out as like okay, I had a conversation with them.

58:36 And then if there's some kind of like Mutual respect, you build a relationship. Like right now, we're we're filming this is the first podcast ever filmed at Diamond in New York. Yeah. you try to email the Imam in New York and ask them if hey let me set up and film a podcast here for free. That's not gonna happen. That happens because of the relationship, a personal relationship that I have with a friend of mine who It like Is evolved with Amon.

58:58 This is where I would say like relationships run the world. And Our jobs. Or essentially. Like learning.

59:05 And then Taking what we learned. And packaging it. For the consumption of somebody else on for an easy way for somebody else to consume and benefit from that learning. Whereas a conversation, a book review, or whatever the case is.

59:18 So that's like very practical. That was in the early days when you were doing canvas, right? Yeah. What about like larger things in your life. Like who do you think had like an impact, like a my life would not be the same if not for that one conversation, that one idea with that person.

59:34 Two people came to mind. Uh right away. Uh The first is Her balance.

59:40 Who I don't I don't know well. Um These lessons came from one incredibly, you know, incredibly interesting conversation. About the

59:51 My my sense of him again, don't don't know him well. Is that he is uncompromising in his values. He he does He's maybe like the apex predator of like the thing I want to do, which is like picking and supporting people. I think that's what he's done for a really long time with. Unbelievable success.

1:00:09 And that He is so incredibly uncompromising about how he does that and Willing yeah, I won't tell the examples, but like I think willing famously to like throw away huge commercial opportunities just'cause the person wasn't who he wanted to support.

1:00:24 Um So s sometimes it's literally a conversation with a person. That just smacks you in the face. And makes you feel Uh

1:00:33 validated maybe, um, for for what you're trying to do. There's a gentleman named Reese Duca who's been It was very, very private. Um And you know, there's no content about him or interviews with him. I I wish to God I could

1:00:46 He would let me interview him, I know I know he never will. Um Who has been incredibly impactful on At like a philosophical level. He has the he has all these amazing little phrases.

1:00:57 But his life kind of boils down to simplicity, the beauty of simplicity. He gave me this line one time, Simplify your life with rhythm and harmony. And that line is what you're talking about. Fewer, deeper relationships.

1:01:09 Fewer things better. Everything aligned with what gives you energy. listening to your own, you know, feel the feeling of aliveness. Like He lived that to a degree that's rare that I've never seen. So

1:01:21 I could keep I literally could rattle names a a a gentleman that I spend a ton of time with now named Jesse Bay Rudy. Right. I I'm with basically every day. who also I think has no interest in fame or accolades or recognition But I think is one of the great

1:01:37 will go down, I I would predict as one of the great investors ever. And what make he's like Greece, he's completely uncompromising in the most principled way of living I've ever seen like refuses to get sucked into the the game. And um

1:01:52 I could God man, I could rattle off names for For hours and hours. I mean, there's so many so many people that have influenced me. And that's what makes us all fun that's what makes what you and I do so fun is I I'm inspired constantly. And

1:02:07 You know, you you you're doing this new show. I interview people once a week, but really I interview like ten people a day. That's what that's what I do. I just happen to have mics there one of the times. you know if I'm doing it forty or fifty times a week, which is not an exaggeration. Uh It really is that many people every week. Just like who are you? What's your deal?

1:02:25 I love doing that. And so there's there's just too many Munger said, uh I'm paraphrasing, but he's like, you know, one of the best ways to learn. is like you find somebody that's like kind of an outlier and you just ask like what the hell is going on with this person. Yeah. And you just keep asking that question to try to get like deeper and deeper and deeper about like reverse engineer of what they're doing and like why uh they're they're really successful. There's another fascinating thing where like everybody there's like this meme where it's like everybody has a podcast now. And everybody starts podcasts. And as soon as that like takes hold.

1:02:56 You've been doing podcasting for ten years. And you decide, No, I'm gonna go in a different direction. And mo uh majority of our conversations, I would say now. Are not even about the podcast, they're about these profiles. They are writing.

1:03:09 on Colossus. Some of them have have been so incredible that I actually use them as source material for a founders episode, which I think we should do more of those collabs because that was like rec they were like really well written, kind of like doing my job for me. Why did you decide to do that? I'm In the abstract, very interested in How can I Create and control.

1:03:31 valuable scarce units of attention. And then dole those things out. to the people that we believe in. At a very high level. Uh

1:03:41 The reason we now have a magazine which on its face I think was a Everyone would have agreed it was a stupid idea, or told me it was a stupid idea when we started it. Um why are we doing these profiles that take months or quarters or years to write Um and require lots of investment.

1:03:57 Why do them? Well the reason is I think it's just in a beautiful way. To shine the light. beyond like podcasting. on people that we admire.

1:04:06 Um And to teach someone Teach the world about of a compelling founder or a compelling investor or or artist or whatever. And

1:04:16 the thing that I didn't realise with that was was that Because I'm not writing the profiles. our amazing team is writing them. It would actually be a double whammy that not only Uh when we started doing this, I went and read David Remnick, who's the editor longtime editor for The New Yorker.

1:04:33 And New Yorker profiles were were always my favorite growing up, these incredibly detailed Uh amazing, well written profiles. he wrote in the introduction to this his compilation of his favorite New Yorker profiles. There's this line that says the best profiles over the last hundred years are de are defined. Bye.

1:04:50 Somebody doing a thing they're obsessed with. And a writer. That is as obsessed with the person. As the person is with a thing. And

1:04:59 I remember reading that paragraph and just thinking Wow, that like I wanna read that's what I wanna read. And um You know, so I went and I read a million profiles and the very best one I read was in a uh publication called Tablet.

1:05:14 on on Palmer Lucky from Andril. And I reached out to the author, his name is Jeremy Stern. Who's now the editor in chief at Classis. And You know, the rest of that story is sort of history. He he joined. We've got other people, you know, that have joined or are joining to write these profiles.

1:05:31 And It just felt like wow, this is another way. To do the thing we love to do. Which is to find The person.

1:05:40 Become obsessed, learn everything about them. Take great time and pain to write a definitive thing about them. And then share it with millions of people. And

1:05:51 You know, the fact the one that we wrote about um Josh, Cushner, and Thrive. was one of these like bizarre break the internet moments when it just like completely took over the internet for a while. And

1:06:03 I remember reading it the first time and I was like forty five minutes into reading it. And I was still reading about the Holocaust. And Um I don't think anyone else would

1:06:13 take that risk in a profile of Josh and his family and his team But it was so important to understanding the the soil out of which his family and eventually he emerged.

1:06:25 And Jeremy also Yeah. Mm. was the product of Holocaust survivors himself.

1:06:33 And knew a tremendous amount. About Josh's family history because it was also his family's history. And

1:06:41 I thought that was the coolest, most beautiful thing. I never would have re I I would you know So This this project. Has become an excuse to Uh

1:06:51 First of all, find more talented people. The writers. That We can Support.

1:06:57 Which is great. See the see the potential, you know. Same thing we've been talking about over and over again. So now now team members become more people that we can do this supporting thing with And for them to write things they're obsessed with and passionate about. And then for the rest of the world to benefit, for the people being profiled hopefully to benefit.

1:07:15 You know, if we tell the honest stories and and you know we wanna tell the the hard parts and the and the interesting parts. And it's been successful. Beyond what I ever could have imagined. And I think it's important to note like when I started But

1:07:27 The first idea Everyone said it was a stupid idea. I mean, literally everybody said it was a stupid idea. When I started the podcast, everyone said it was a stupid idea. When we started Canvas, everyone said I think like if people say something's a good idea, I always get a little nervous. Because if it's if it sounds like a good idea. It just feels you're in a more competitive space, it's gonna be harder. I think the key is stuff that sounds dumb, but isn't it?

1:07:49 Uh And I think that's what I would, you know, starting a magazine in two thousand twenty five, I think falls in that category of sounds dumb. Magazines are dead or dying. Um, but the thing underneath it was this desire to have more ways to do the thing that we love to do, which is Find people, learn about them, tell the world about them.

1:08:07 I suspect it won't be long until that's much bigger than even the podcast, which itself is, you know, very, very big. The surprising thing is I think you want that to be the case. What what specifically? Colossus being bigger than podcasts. Of course. That's not an of course thing. You gotta unpack that. You gotta explain why you feel that way.

1:08:24 I know you don't know how other people view you. But I get a lot of this because they know of our association. Like they're like he This is the best. you know, business interview or in the world. And

1:08:34 This is incredible. Like why would he not want that to be The biggest thing. I'm not saying I I I wanna keep doing that. I know you I know that. For sure. I love I love it. But I think in your heart If you had to choose, you'd be like, No, I'd rather have the profiles be bigger. Cause you like again, this goes back to how I think how we started the conversation. Like, I really do believe you'd like to be the guy behind the guy. That's true.

1:08:55 But The reason for me is like Almost so obvious that it's uninteresting, which is Well If a bunch of other talented people are doing this

1:09:04 And then creating these things. First of all, I'll have more of them so I can enjoy them more. And I'll I'll get to enjoy it just like everybody else. Like I can't tell you how fun it is to get the first draft of one of these things in Slack. Like the things that make me The most giddy in my work. R Uh some new draft that they've created for Colossus and some new research report.

1:09:26 on an investment created by my incredible team on that side, who in many ways are just doing the it's turtles all the way down. Like it's it's the same like deep investigation, publishing, writing, clear thinking. Um When I get one of those two things in the morning, oftentimes sometimes there's days where I have several of them. Those are the best days. And so selfishly I would just love a world where

1:09:48 I'm not needed at all. Um because that means we're creating more of them. Obviously I'm limited by my own And time. Uh I'll always do interviews. I hope that they get I hope it gets bigger and bigger and I I I don't want to like fade into the sunset.

1:10:02 But I hope this is much bigger because that means I get to hire more incredible talented people and hopefully put them on a career trajectory that's the best it could possibly be. And that's incredibly gratifying. I get to read more of these things. Um I get to do this thing that we love to do for more people. And point this point the light that we're trying to cultivate. on more and more talented people.

1:10:25 That that's Like Unbelievably exciting. I hope it's not just writing. I hope it's Documentary, I hope it's Yeah.

1:10:33 I who knows where it goes. I hope we start convening people in small situations where Meet this person, meet this person. Like that to me is the most fun thing in the world. And so A world where it's no longer rate limited by my time and energy. is

1:10:48 Much more exciting than a world. Where It's me. And so yes, I would vastly prefer that All the rest.

1:10:56 dwarf whatever I do. Even though I hope what I do. Last forever and is I don't remember the first time you brought up this idea to me. Like what it now it seems obvious in hindsight, right? Because people have been reading profiles. But but not only that, like specifically profiles.

1:11:14 We're like People have been reading, like you just mentioned that I bought that book too that you told me about the New Yorker. Yeah, yeah. Like people have been they're always interested in people. I remember reading. Larry Ellison pick loves to pick fights. And he thought it was like really good and he didn't like the fact that Oracle

1:11:30 And he's like, uh, Oracle is just compared to other database companies that I don't like that. I want to be compared to the best companies in the world. Yeah. It's like almost like this idea me and you bond over that we both learned from Jared Cushner, a constant refinement of association. So he's like, I don't wanna be Uh compared to Sid Seabass or any of the or S whatever how you say it, like these other state. That's from Dumb and Dove. I don't know what it's called. All my vocab comes from the written word. So you know, everybody makes fun of me because all my DMs are like you mispronounce this word. It's very obvious, buddy. Uh but his whole point is like I don't want to be associated with these people. I want Or it could be in the same Vane as IBM or Microsoft. And so he's like the way I'm gonna do that is I'm gonna pick a fight with

1:12:19 Bill Gates and Microsoft and he does this huge fight. That it was gonna be You know, Microsoft is Oracle. And he's like, but people are interested in personalities more than interested in companies or technologies. So it became

1:12:33 billionaire A versus billionaire B and it greatly elevated his profile and then he said that Oracle and Oracle's products were risen like came along with the increase. So The reason I bring that up is because people are fascinated with profiles of other people. We are fundamentally more interested in other people and like what they can teach us about ourselves, anything else. You just What were you thinking? Because like that was something that existed forever. And who writes great profiles now? I don't even see any of them.

1:12:58 That's the other part that's exciting is because I like things that are really hard. Okay, so originally hardship. We didn't talk as much about hardship. I I think uh you you've been talking a lot about Doing something that's different just because it's different.

1:13:12 I would add on which I think is Interesting and correct. But I would add on to that, like it should be different and really hard. Like really hard to do. And

1:13:22 If if I just I'm sampling all the profiles we've written in my head. Some of them are Ridiculously hard to write. Not only because of all the hours and work that has to go into it and the talent as a writer that has to go into it. But

1:13:36 sometimes it's sensitive parts of the person's life that's never been written about and they've never talked about and Maybe they don't want to talk about it or they don't want you to talk about it and it's the coaxiing it out of them and That takes time and and trust and So Um

1:13:51 The thing I can't wait for is the profile. That we write ten years from now that we start working on today. We we have this idea, um, which we've started to do. Where

1:14:01 We just asked people. Can I just have Lunch with you once a year. I'm not gonna do anything with it. Just like I'm just gonna I just want to start collecting

1:14:08 The the the line. Mm-hmm. And Maybe we'll write something in ten years, you know. So Th things that are really hard to make are really interesting to me.

1:14:17 And I think People stopped doing profiles because they're really hard to make. They take time. The business model kinda sucks. Like the the the the pay is terrible. You know, profile writers are not paid well. Um, the world went a different direction. It's much cheaper and faster to make a stupid fucking TikTok than Right a

1:14:35 fifty page profile about someone that's careful and intricate and well written. And I believe U you and I certainly talk about this all the time. The world is desperate for some stuff like that.

1:14:47 The world is so sick. Of this crap. Just all day, every day. It's just crap. And it's

1:14:54 It's ever makes the junk food comparison because it's a perfect comparison. Like junk food got to where it was because it's been optimized. For us to want the most of it possible. Whether or not it's good for us is obviously horrible for us. It's the same thing. With most content. And

1:15:09 Everyone knows this in their Got. And we all want something more carefully created. And I think profile might be

1:15:18 perhaps the ultimate expression of that. If a documentary is like the ultimate profile, maybe that's even harder than writing a profile. But Um Yeah, I'm interested in stuff that's very hard to make. And

1:15:30 That's singular, that can't be easily copied. And uh I mean the literal answer to your question. Kinda funny. Was

1:15:40 Somebody Uh I'm actually seeing seeing him Monday. gave me the idea to potentially buy this existing magazine.

1:15:49 And Um we did we didn't buy'cause I like to create our own things. Primarily. But It was notable to me that this magazine which had been around for a long time

1:15:58 had all these incredible I'd never heard of the magazine and it had all these incredible people on the cover and I thought this is strange, like Why are these people doing this magazine that no one's ever heard of? Big names. And it it dawned on me, I was like, Oh, it's the cover. Like people can't say no to a cover.

1:16:13 And so I tested that theory out and and it was true. And I think with that means is it's like the ultimate form of spotlight and attention that you can

1:16:23 And so that that's what got me actually literally spinning on like, Oh, maybe we should I would love to have a cover that I could dole out. Did that idea come Before or after you read Jeremy Stern's piece on Palmer Lucky? Before. So I was

1:16:37 I was then on the hunt. And This is another idea of that you and I talk about often, which is If you want to hire someone for a thing. Just go consume.

1:16:49 As much of the thing made by a million people. That's possible. Whoever made the best one. Go for them. Uh there there was this funny conversation during Covid. An investor friend of mine, one of the one of the

1:17:02 Uh One of the great investors ever who's now retired. And it was The the topic of the conversation was

1:17:11 Uh Attributes of great founders. And Well,

1:17:19 Maybe it'd be easier to think about them not as founders, but as inventors. And everyone thought, Oh, this is a cool idea. Okay, let's talk about them as inventors, not as founders. And then someone said, Well, what are the attributes of a great inventor? And people started The this, they're this, they're this. And this one investor's face started contorting.

1:17:37 And you could just see that he was frustrated by all these answers and it got to him. And he was like Morons. Who cares? Did they make a good invention? If if the invention is good, the inventor is probably good. Yeah.

1:17:51 And And so I think You and I have taken that approach to Um f I certainly have to finding people. Like just just look at what they did. If they're the Jeremy wrote the best profile that I read.

1:18:03 Turns out he's a great profile writer. Like He's written ten more and we'll write a hundred more. Like, So I the the I was then on the hunt after I had this I and we had this idea. to go now okay, let now let's go find the let's go find the best people to do this thing.

1:18:18 People vast interest rate important volume. Like whatever you're into, just be into it more than anybody else. And like you'll be able to tell like what is a good idea, what is a bad idea. It's like this constant refinement of taste. In fact, I was shocked at the way your profile started with about Josh Cusher. Where it was like this Visit to Rick Rubin's house. And I'm a huge Rick Rubin fan.

1:18:37 Like I like a read a biography on him. I think it's like episode two forty five of Founders Did That. Um I think some of his interviews and stuff she says in an interview it can be a three hour conversation and you just hear like It's like a forty f five second clip that makes everything Like it just makes perfect sense on on

1:18:53 Like I needed to hear that whole three hour conversation just to get that forty five second clip and that forty five second idea. uh in my head. But if you think of like The guy started you know, his his record company in like nineteen eighty four. in his dorm room and he's been in the same business. He's worked with all these different musicians. In fact, he said something that was interesting to me and actually screenshotted it, saved it, and I reread it on my phone.

1:19:15 And he talked about With was M M. Which is like wait a minute, that's

1:19:22 You worked with everybody, you've had a four decade long career, like why is that the case? Like that makes me want to know. More about that. Uh our mutual friend Brent Bayeshore. Thomas Larry's story one time. Brent Scott. Uh he owns a bunch of different companies.

1:19:36 And sometimes those companies need a CEO. And he found himself I think at like a lunch or dinner. With Charlie Munger, and so he's like, you know, I'm this young guy, I think he was probably like thirty five at the time. So I own these like twelve companies. How you know, how do you and Warren Finally, Gracios.

1:19:53 And Charlie's just like We just find somebody that is a great CO and say, Come do that for us. Yeah. And Brad's follow up and goes. Yeah, but what about hiring for potential? And he goes, We don't do that. It's just a beautifully simple like idea. These really good. Can you come do this over here? Yeah.

1:20:10 Yeah, people show you. And Um It's that I think that also if you invert that To use another bungerism.

1:20:18 It serves as great advice too, which is If you're trying to get ahead. Put stuff out in the world that people can find. Hicky would call these bread crumbs. put stuff put breadcrumbs out into the world.

1:20:30 So that people see it and are amazed by it. Like if you create a single thing, not You'll do ten things, just one thing that people are amazed by. Put it pour a year of your life into making one amazing thing that people are amazed by. And Amazing things will happen, I promise you. Like the internet is

1:20:49 Amazing at sharing. Something that is great. You say there's always room for great. Yeah. One of your maxims. That's true. Great takes time. Great's hard.

1:20:58 You just you just proved this. The the idea of just always room for great came because so many people are like, We don't need another podcast. I was like d Okay, so we don't need any more music? Yeah. We're gonna stop making music, we're gonna stop making movies. Like, no, it's just like we n we need less bad shit, but that's always gonna happen. Like there's always room for great. You just prove this with the profiles. Yeah. Like That idea was just hiding in plain sight. It was just not being done well. And it's like, well, what if I just take this idea and not make it shitty? Well how Walt Disney Toward the end of his life, it was very fascinating because you know everybody associates him with animation and Mickey Mouse and everything else. And yet when he's towards the end of his life, he's asked like What is the things that he's most proud of? And he said he named two things. He said

1:21:35 Keeping Control of my company'cause he lost control of his first company and he's lost control of his the first characters he made. And Disneyland. And Disney was his obsession. In fact, I read this book called Disney's Land. I think it's by Richard just guy named Snow.

1:21:49 And it's Not about the animation. It's not about everything we know of him for. It's about how he thought about making this amusement park. And at the time Amusement parks where think of like low quality. They were like kind of scammy because you're traveling carnies. Yeah, exactly. Like you would come in there and there'd be like games to play and you'd get ripped off because the games were set up and everything else. And he's going around w trying to raise money for this very unsuccessfully. And they're like

1:22:13 Yeah, but you know. Uh amusement parks are like kinda like trashy. Like, that's the point. Mine won't be. Yeah. It's because like mediocrity is always invisible until passion shows up and exposes it. And he's just like, I'm just gonna take every single part of this. and make it better and then then remove the parts that don't make any sense. Um like that's a great filter for like finding

1:22:34 You know. New things to create. In the world. By the way. I spent My twenties.

1:22:40 Basically just reading. And I read more than you can imagine. I mean, you're probably the one person that can imagine it'cause you did something similar. But

1:22:49 I wasn't just doing I mean literally everything I could get my hands on, thousands and books and profiles and everything. And I started the podcast in part because I started to feel this awful feeling of like, this is happening in this weird, isolated way. Like it's just me and my notes I'm not talking to anyone about these books.

1:23:07 And so I wanted to sh I wanted to start sharing, which is where that book email came from that you originally that's where the audience came from. Like I used to have the saying, learn, build, share, repeat, and just like do that until I die. Um And I believe in that. And so it's still learn, build, share, repeat. Yeah. Still really good. Still works. Yeah.

1:23:26 And it's maybe that's my gov that's my governing principle, probably, like you you you said before. And Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's an incredibly powerful loop to go on.

1:23:37 Um but the ten years of reading Prepared me. To be a good producer of profiles because I've seen great. I've seen good, I've seen average, I've seen bad. Um my my reps are very, very, very high.

1:23:52 And that's another thing I always tell people, especially young people, is like what is the thing where you naturally have a lot of reps because you just like it. And find some Build off that. 'Cause there's this learning by doing concept like You get better at something just through being prolific in the thing.

1:24:07 And Most people have a thing for which they are naturally prolific. Even that if that's following your sports team or what you know, whatever whatever it might be. Like what's the thing you just can't help but do crazy high rep count of.

1:24:21 probably that's a good clue to like where you could go build one of these compounding curves for yourself. And for me it was read the my first love was reading. That love of reading. The

1:24:34 Email list. You know, here's my four favorite books from the month. Um The email list gave me my first set of people to listen to the podcast. The podcast introduced me to all these people, helped me build my business and sell it successfully. You know, and on and on and on. That led to the it led to the positive sum and And m me building my business successfully in software got me to all of these people

1:24:56 building early stage companies, writing these small checks. Writing these small checks got me to this series A investment that caused me to create this new investment firm. Creating this new investment firm caused me to go invest in all these you know, companies in a bigger way and be more impactful on on them and their trajectories than I could have been on my own. The whole thing is Daisy chained together because I loved Reading fucking books in my twenties. And I did something about it and I started

1:25:22 Telling other people which ones I liked. That's what it's that's how it started. That's it. And All of that was unpredictable. Back to why I don't like goals.

1:25:30 If you had told me When I sent that first email. To list my goals. None of those things that I just listed would have been on my sheet. I wouldn't have even known to think about them.

1:25:40 My own experience has cemented my belief in this. growth without goals. Like I wanted to grow. I love the idea in in weightlifting, Jeremy Giffin and I talk about it all the time, a progressive overload of like Always like a little bit harder, a little bit more, like go to failure, go to failure, go to failure. But you don't the beautiful thing about life is you don't know where that's gonna take you.

1:26:00 I God, I never in a million years could have predicted any of this crap. What's even more exciting is they don't it doesn't stop. Something some set of stuff's gonna happen over the next ten years, which if I tried to make a goalless today I would be unable to predict. It's gonna be so much fun.

1:26:15 But it all started with I had a thing I loved naturally. Just like to read books. And I think that's profoundly cool. Now

1:26:24 You know. obligatory disclaimer that like I've been so unbelievably lucky. I had the privilege to sit and read a gazillion books. And not be spending All of that time.

1:26:35 just getting ahead like you had to. Because again I I I was very lucky the situation I was born into in life with a Parents I had and You know, the the the things that were easy for me, I didn't have to pay for college, all this all this stuff.

1:26:50 made it possible for me to do these things. And I I Yeah, I think that's important to acknowledge. Um But nonetheless, like you found your way there, you found the passion, you found the high rep passion, and now look now look. That's like my constant urging to people, like it's there, I promise.

1:27:04 There's something. Just go find it. It's I think it was beautifully said. Uh we haven't even touched on investing. Which I want to do. I want

1:27:13 Is it code red? Seeing red. What is the y there's this fantastic story. Uh that we've talked about before.

1:27:22 Where you were gonna make an investment in somebody's fund. Mm. Is it seeing red? What did this person say about you? He said I was red on the color wheel. Okay, red on the colour roll. Can you tell that story?

1:27:34 Sure. So you you, me, and Sam Pinky were walking, and I think you asked Sam What's my biggest weakness or something? No, you were interviewing. Okay, so when you just said like this all started from because I I I like love to read, and then that started this whole chain of events, and now you have this other parallel thing that you just do uh compulsively that you can't help, which is like exactly what you said. I'm doing 10 invest like the best episodes a day. I'm just recording, you know, I'm doing fifty a week and I'm just recording one. Like if we're in a group, I know what's gonna happen. You're just gonna start lighting people up with questions. So we go on this five hour walk, which Sam did not like it. People don't know that you're like a goddamn billikoat. Okay. Like

1:28:15 I it's just you do you walk way too fast. You don't go around obstacles, you just go straight over them. That's why I call you a Billy Goat, because they do that in real life. Like you know, if you're out in nature and usually people there's a mountain here, like I'll follow the trail around it. It's like no bily goats just go straight over and up. And like that's like walking around with you. And so we're in Columbia, Missouri of all places. We go on this like five hour walk, and essentially it's a five hour private and that's like the best episode, except you're interviewing both of us. Yeah, yeah, I remember. And you would ask The other person questions about the other person was like really actually was like really impactful and important for me to understand myself because again, like

1:28:52 Somebody you trust and you know has your best interest in heart and is not trying to criticize you just for criticizing criticism. I think a lot of people are hyper sensitive to criticism. And if it's like some random stranger, okay, that makes sense. But you know that person cares about you. You know that person. wants the best for you and they're telling this about you. You should Even if you don't agree, you should think about it for a little bit. And I've thought a lot about what he said.

1:29:15 in the i the y over the years, and I definitely agree, like he he was right. So I don't know how this got turned on You But that's when he said

1:29:25 You're code red. No. Red on the colorway. There you go. Yeah. What is it? Well f first just a thought on Sam, which is It's hard to imagine a higher compliment I could pay someone. Then

1:29:36 the role that Sam plays in my life. Uh the way I would phrase it maybe is I have more conversations with Sam when he's not there than when he is. What I mean by that is I'm often finding myself wondering in a in a situation

1:29:50 Like what would Sam think about? What I'm gonna do here. Um I I so value his character.

1:29:58 And judgment and Fidelity and and Just so many things about him. But like What a role to play in somebody's life, like

1:30:07 He's the one I invoke in my head. one one of three or four people that I invoke in my head of like what would this person think about? you know, this thing I'm about to decide on. Um But back to the story. So

1:30:19 He said uh Yeah, it was something like what's my biggest weakness. And he he described me as being red on the color wheel, which Uh he explained meant. That

1:30:28 Uh When I'm interested in some Thing. I I am intense, like and I've always been this way. I am Voracious and intense and aggressive.

1:30:38 And Uh I would say I I have a skill at making things happen when I'm interested in in in them happening. And maybe that's uh one side of the sword. Th the other side of the of being red on the color wheel is this like Locked in intensity.

1:30:53 The other side of it is that like the moment that attention is is is focused elsewhere. Yeah. I can tend to whiplash around a lot and change my opinion. Patrick is focused on you, he will d like he will make shit happen.

1:31:15 But if it's elsewhere, you're not I've had to fly, literally. To Greenwich. Why dude get back I think we need to focus on this. I had to get in your because you're you're I In some cases is like a physical presence thing. Yeah, yeah. It's not just like I can get you on the phone, but I was like, No, no, this is not good enough. So that's the strength your strength can be your weakness. You know, it's interesting I learned something about myself recently, which I at first was terrified about, um and now I've come to view as everything is everything is double edged, you know, which is I have um

1:31:45 I if you close your eyes and try to visualize something, a red cardinal or something. Th there's there's a degree of how sp how visually sharp that thing looks in your mind's eye when you close your eyes. For me, it's just black. I can't visualize anything. I can't see anything. I'm like, Wait, I discovered this like a year ago. I'm like Wait a minute. You can see things with your eyes closed. Like what you remember. We were at Brad Jacobs' house having breakfast. He was very disturbed by this and you try to fix it. Yeah, I know. Yeah. He tried to he he put me through a guided like he tried to hypnotize me into visualizing something and it didn't work.

1:32:16 Um So anyway. The the the the the other side of that sword. It freaked me out that I couldn't see anything with my eyes closed, but Uh

1:32:25 The other side of that sort is like when I'm focused on something like he like here right now, I am not thinking about other stuff. Like it's just all this. I'm I'm I wish it wasn't the eye of Sauron. That sounds so bad. But said in a loving way. I understand. So Sam's point was you're red on the color wheel.

1:32:40 And Um You you when your attention shifts, it can be whiplashy for those around you. What was the example he gave though? It's too good of a story not to tell. The example he gave was

1:32:53 That Sam at the time was raising his first Uh Fund. And

1:33:00 We I was gonna be an investor in the fund. And uh so he called me and said, Uh you know Putting this fun together, it's small. Limited group of people. I'd love to have you if you if you want to do it. Hell yeah, I want to, of course.

1:33:13 Um And told him the amount or whatever. And then he called me back like a month later and was like okay, like I have the docs all ready and you know, we're ready to go. And uh

1:33:25 W you still in for this much? And I said something like Well I can't yes, I'm still in, but I I I can't do that much. Because actually like I I have also Launched a fund. And he was like what? And and I said, Yeah, I you know, I need to make a a G P commit to my own fund and so I I'm you know

1:33:43 This is before I sold my business. It's a little bit, you know. Tighter situation. And I have to reduce the amount. And he t started to tease me because he was like, Wait, so

1:33:54 When I first called you a month ago. You had never even thought about having a fund. I don't think you'd ever thought about it. And now a month later, like you already have a fund. Like a month later, like it's raised and done. And Um, I think that's a good example of like, yeah, some opportunity came out of left field. There was this investment opportunity in one company that led to a fund very quickly.

1:34:16 In the summer of two thousand twenty. And Um So yes, I I I like to move really, really fast when I'm interested in something. But my interest does shift around.

1:34:26 And Um I don't think this is a good thing, by the way. Like I I I don't want to whiplash people and and I realized thanks to Sam That I was whiplashing people I would be So excited and willing and able to galvanize people around an idea.

1:34:42 And then I would change my And it still happens, but I would change my mind. And completely forget about the idea back to like people that have this lack of visualization thing also have b quite bad event memory. I don't ever think about stuff in the past, like ever. And so I not only could I change my idea, but I literally never think about that thing again that I was so passionate about in the moment. You know, for a short period of time.

1:35:04 And that is Jarring for people, you know, that are like signed on to do a thing, and then a week later you're like, What are you talking about? What thing? Like we're doing this thing. And um So I've I've worked pretty hard to Narrow.

1:35:15 The Uh simplify my life with rhythm and harmony, focus on fewer things like get less distracted by what I would call like the flavor of the month club, which is something That that can definitely snare me for sure. Yeah, now that you say that, I haven't had any like eye of Saron moments with you in quite a while. You've kind of fixed that.

1:35:33 I heard Ari Emanuel on your podcast say something that was like actually pretty smart where his like his idea of like when especially when he's trying to do a deal he like overcommunicates. And I think a lot of that is like The the problems. Like I didn't understand that about you because m I had never worked with you before. And then

1:35:49 I was like, I don't get it, like what what's going on here? And then other people that knew you explained that and then I'm like, Oh, like I'm like having an issue uh and we've never even had an argument or a fight. I mean one thing that I love about it is like we worked together for years and we had like a we never had paper anything. We never had a contract. We just said, Hey, this is what the agreement is. We shook hands and like we did what we were supposed to do up until the very like it was just like exactly how I wanna I don't wanna deal with people where there's like a have to deal with people where there's like a bunch of contracts. I wanna know it's like you gave me your word, I gave you mine, and then like this is what we're gonna do and we'll like figure it out.

1:36:21 But The I think what was happening there is it's like There's all this like Unsaid stuff that you think we are looking at in the same way.

1:36:29 And yet if we just said, Oh wait, like this is how I'm thinking about this thing, and this is how I'm thinking about that thing, and like just essentially just over communicate as much as possible. With the people that are important to you. Because then you're not gonna have there's no a s uh unspoken assumption. You know, and then if you let it Sit there too long, then you have another unspoken assumption on top of that one, then things can get like really, really weird. I think a lot about leadership because

1:36:52 Ultimately my main job is to back people with L P dollars, lots of them. That had been entrusted to me as a fiduciary. into companies led by these people that were backing that are usually pretty early in their company building journey. So you're Yeah.

1:37:07 Mostly your largely backing the person in the team versus the mature business story. And Pretty important that that person's a good leader. And

1:37:17 I think one of the things I underestimated about uh Ravi Gupta is another person that I would list, you know, and people that have really impacted me. I I at one point I called like everyone I knew. I was like define good leader. Just I'm gonna come I'm gonna do a survey. And Robbie gave my favorite answer. Uh he was like it's not hard. Like a great leader is someone that other people want to follow and everyone else had given much more ornate definitions and I I Robbie's was my favorite.

1:37:46 And what I've learned about what is shared in common amongst people that others want to follow. Um that they are hyper communicative with those people. And they're consistent and

1:38:00 Uh they lead from the front. They g you know, they They take risk, they take arrows. For the team they communicate like crazy with the team. If something's changing, they overcommunicate it, you know.

1:38:12 Um They're they're honest, like all these things. add up to someone that people want to follow. And Uh

1:38:20 I think I was quite Bad. Uh on that dimension. For a long time. Not because I was trying to be bad.

1:38:28 Just because I was so excitable. I I am so excitable. Like when I find something new and interesting, like I just cannot get enough. But very often that means I'm billigating up ahead of the pack. And N forgetting like oh wait I I I need to like there's all these people that I wanna do this with. I don't wanna just do this alone.

1:38:46 Um So that's been a big lesson for me that uh It's taken a while to learn, but y yet another thing to credit Sam with. Some of the best leaders Like it when you see in like company buildings like history space and spreaders, like really think of them as like The the their teachers?

1:39:02 And then they understand they need to repeat, repeat, repeat. I always say repetition is persuasive. You gave me like great like Catholic saying where it's like repetition doesn't bro uh spoil the prayer. So I think of like Jim Sinegal, the uh founder of Costco. He has this great line in the book, This Biography of his mentor and this guy named Soul Price, who basically influence he's like the most influential retailer of all time. Chip Cynical was mentored by him. Sam Walton took more ideas from him than anybody. Bernie Marcus got the idea for doing Home Depot from Soul Price. Jeff Bezos took ideas from Soul Price. Like it's just incredible like how influential this guy was, and most people don't know he he uh he is And in that book he says that if you're not spending ninety percent of your time teaching, you're not doing your job as the leader of the company. And when he is, is like it means like teaching what our philosophy is, what is our purpose, how what we do, how we do it, why we're doing it, and you just repeat it over and over again. I just did this episode uh called How Elon Works. Which is I think the most downloaded episode of Founders Ever just nuts.

1:39:57 And what I was shocked is even you think of you don't think of Elon as like a he's definitely a singular character. There's nobody else like him that I've found living or dead. There's usually some kind of historical equivalent of anybody. I'm not an historical equivalent of him. And you would think, Oh, he's working like seven different companies at a time. He can't possibly be like this. And he was mentioning like that algorithm, that four part algorithm he had uh that he uses in all his companies. He's like, I say it so much, I repeat it so much. That you'll be in a meeting and my executives will be mouthing the words along with me. They know what I'm about to say. And I think that has to do with like, Over communication.

1:40:29 It's like I we are going to be on the same page. I'm not worried that you hear this for the tenth time. I'm we're I'm worried that you're not understanding where we're going or how we're gonna do it. Um and so I think about that like a ton, like Repeat, repeat, repeat. Mm. Yeah, the the the joy of

1:40:44 that sort of thing and that sort of leader. No Ma my favorite my view of all these great maxims, my favorite maxim, pretty much the only one we use in my business with my team. is the reward for great work is more work. And

1:40:57 I find that saying that Maxim to the right person, like the kind of person I want to spend time with, they o the their eyes go wide and they understand it immediately that The reward for great work is not money, power, fame. It is the privilege to get to do more of this thing that I love doing. The problem with coming up with like good terms for this stuff, we use this term life's work is that

1:41:17 Immediately everyone else just starts saying it and it ceases to have any meaning'cause like Now every goddamn meeting I'm in, like I'm doing my life's work. Um And and my experience is that almost nobody is doing their life's work. Even great a lot of great founders, I would say it's not their life's work. I love the fact that Thomas Jefferson on his tombstone

1:41:34 uh has three things that describe his life. But One of them is not that he was the president of the United States, that's you know, author of the Declaration of Independence, founder of the University of Virginia, not not. President. I think that's so interesting.

1:41:48 Um And so I think a lot about like, is this thing this person is doing going to be on their tombstone? And Uh usually the answer's no. And

1:41:58 The reason I like this concept of life's work so much Which I would define as A lifelong quest to build something for others that expresses who you are. All three parts are really important. Say that one more time. A lifelong quest. To build something for others that expresses who you are.

1:42:12 And We have trained ourselves to see this in people. By the way, the best way to Figure out. My favorite question for founders is Literally just take me give me two hours. Tell me your whole life story.

1:42:23 Up until the point you founded your company. We'll talk about your company later. Like just tell me. What got you to here? Back to origin wins, originality, hardship, transformation. In the business context, it's

1:42:34 I want someone that's lived a very unique path. I find success in startups is is the result of path dependency very often. some unique set of lessons and experience led to you being the right person to do this thing. And then hardship, of course, you know, the harder the business is to build. the harder it will be to copy. Uh you know, I think that's really important. Transformation's about the customer, you know.

1:42:53 If you build something crazy hard. the customer's life will get way better service. So I think this powerful concept of life life's work can be applied to ourselves. to make great investments. Um

1:43:05 And it's really rare. But these the the leadership qualities of life like the reward for great work is more work. reason I started talking about life's work and and investing. is these people realize come to realize You will not be rewarded with great work if you do not become a good leader.

1:43:22 And a a common pitfall that I certainly have fallen in before. is when there's someone really talented, they can do a lot themselves. They can get a lot done themselves. And I refer to this as like heroics. And that's always necessary. A founder always has the sort of is the flame keeper of the spirit of the company.

1:43:41 Um And and I think founder led companies are so much of course so much more interesting. Preaching of the choir here. Then uh professionally managed companies for the most part.

1:43:51 But I do think that like becoming a great leader becomes the most important way to secure more right to do great work. Is there anybody that you admire that was doing great work? And then

1:44:04 Stopped. Whether they sold Their company they retired, whatever the case is. Is there anybody that you know that like you can you admire personally.

1:44:14 That stopped. There's tons of people I admire who change what they do a lot. Or have changed what they do a lot. Who stopped one thing and went to another thing. But they're doing something.

1:44:25 Yeah. But I I don't Um I'm just wired this way. You are too.

1:44:33 I I just need to be doing something. I can't sit around. I'm And so I'm I'm drawn to people that are They want to make stuff. And so I have tons of examples of people who

1:44:46 have been Uh They've tried lots of things and made lots of things and moved on from things and had chapters and then a new chapter with doing something totally different. There's there's one um Investor that comes to mind, his name is John Pfeffer.

1:45:00 And John has been wildly successful in like the it's almost like he picks whatever he's doing and as it gets to the tail end of it, he tries to find like the thing in the world that is the most different from what he's doing. He says with glee that require him completely abandon his current network because they're irrelevant for it. Like one time he went from being one of the key guys at KKR and then went to be like one of the most important guys in cryptocurrency, and then went from that to building like a grocery store chain in the UK. And each time he's like, I literally had to start from scratch. And I love it. Like I had to build a completely new network of people. And so I know lots of people like John.

1:45:36 Who Um Have successfully hopped around. You know, I know your focus is more on people that do a thing for a really, really long time. But I don't know

1:45:46 I don't spend a lot of time with people That were uh prolific Creators of things. That just stopped. I I think they're like the saddest people.

1:45:57 Like you're in it's this infinite game. And there's some set of circumstances that cause you to like make that decision and Uh here's an example. Um I love there's this really fun game.

1:46:11 You could do it with your friends. You sit down. And on piece of paper you write down Ten. roles that you play in the world.

1:46:20 Podcast or Father. Whatever. Friend. And

1:46:25 And then you tear them up so it's just one you know, one one thing on each sheet of paper. And then you have to in reverse order Ten down to one. Slowly throw the rolls away until you're left with one. Okay, so one roll left. It's a really interesting game'cause to it's interesting for yourself, but also super interesting to see what your friends pick.

1:46:43 First of all, what's on the list of ten. Um You can do this with attributes for yourself too. Curious. Hard working, whatever. And then and then Jettison those one by one. Fun game.

1:46:53 I played this with my Uh My wife and my kids and my in laws One time. And

1:47:02 I'll never forget it. My my father in law had a very, very successful career as an entrepreneur. and executive in the kind of healthcare and insurance world. And Uh

1:47:13 We were we were doing this game. And His last one. Was Grandfather.

1:47:19 So that was like the role that he kept as his final most important one. And he is an Unbelievable, Grant. Like Like The Michael Jordan of Grandfathers. Like he is

1:47:30 He is unbelievably good. At being a grandfather. It's like Makes me emotional thinking about it and so thankful for it. And the the difference it makes in my kid's life and his other grandkids' life is extraordinary. And so

1:47:44 Dan is his name. Dan is no longer uh major health care executive. He's still an entrepreneur. He can't he's not given it up completely. But he definitely devotes himself more to something like that, which In some sense is much smaller, and in other sense is the biggest possible thing you could do.

1:47:59 And So even the people that sort of like stop the commercial side. that I love tend to find a thing to pour themselves into. And in this case It's the same thing we've been talking about this whole time. It's an active service.

1:48:12 to show up at everything to be the most reliable to be the most fun. just over and over and over again. In the r in this case in the role of grandfather. Um So

1:48:22 I think that's exciting for my own life that maybe when I'm seventy I I won't do any of this stuff. And I'll do something else that's totally different. But My attitude towards it hopefully will be the same. And that will be because I've gotten the privilege of watching people like him.

1:48:37 do that sort of role at that stage of their life. So Back to your original question. The people I love and admire most. do pour themselves into what they're doing.

1:48:49 regardless of what that role is, even as that role shifts around as life goes on. You gave me this term that we describe people that we don't want to spend time with. That now I think I just use and I make that I came up with it and it's casual. It's like Yeah, do you want to go to dinner with this person or do you want to meet this person? And like shorthand between me and you, we're always like, No, they're casual. Like they're just not it's the exact opposite. That's a beautiful story.

1:49:11 Like I I went from like I pity these people that don't work anymore to like Yeah. Person's better than I am. That that guy's a better person than I am. I mean, honestly. There's something very beautiful about

1:49:25 The scope of the ambition. Shrinking so narrow. You know, the trillion dollar coach. Uh what's his first name? Bill Campbell. Bill Campbell.

1:49:37 I never met Bill Campbell. I wish I had. It it's this art this beautiful archetype of Older guy for Just working with a couple executives. Now he worked with Google and

1:49:47 Um some of the most famous companies But was apparently like transformative in the lives of these people. But it was like five people or three people or how whatever small set of people and that's it. And he wasn't doing it for money or fame or power or any of this stuff. He was just doing it to help these couple people. I think that's a really cool exercise to be like what if the only thing I was allowed to do in my life

1:50:08 Nothing else was allowed. was help three people. Well Who would they be and what would I do for them? Dan helping his four grandkids, or something like that.

1:50:17 That makes me excited for later st later stages of life when I think the ability to do something like that goes up. And That is every bit as successful in my mind and in my book.

1:50:29 as Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or You know, pick the pe pu the people that we all worship. In the business world. Of course I'm amazed by them too. But there are flavors.

1:50:40 of success and to me that sort of devotion, even if it's to one person, to your wife, to your kids, whatever. Is every bit as successful and if not more so, because that shit will ripple. through history.

1:50:56 My son and my daughter. Will now behave differently. Because of the experience That Dan and my mother in law and my dad and my mom gave to my kids.

1:51:08 So What's better than that, it's so unusual. for us to even contemplate that like some of the decisions you're making right now are going to Ripple through the generations, they're going to affect things way after that you're you're gone. Somebody we we talked about this uh I think yesterday.

1:51:24 Somebody Took a bunch of like interviews I've done and stuff I've said on the podcast and like literally made like a hip hop album. And there's like eight track hip hop album. I think it's called like David Sender Founders or something like that. And I we keep talking about but I sent it sent it to Hinky. Uh,'cause the first one was like this idea of like general generational reflection point. Yeah.

1:51:41 generational inflection point, which is like the founder of the family. And you know, h he's rather religious in a way that maybe I'm not And you know, he's like He the he's like, did you script this out? I was like no I didn't like Did you know about this? Like no like somebody just sent it to me. Like I didn' You can think I'm making music by myself? Like come on, you know that's I wouldn't put it fast.

1:52:04 And so I was like no And uh you know, he's like, Yeah, I listened to a bunch of'em, but like that that first song, he's like, That's obviously like a that's a sign from God. You should consider it a sign from God. I'm like What? What is this? And we were on the phone. I was like, What are you talking about? The reason that came to mind it's just in that song, I guess I talked about I think it was on your show where I was just like

1:52:22 You know, this this This choice by this man I don't remember and I never met. I met him but I don't remember him. Which is my grandfather who was thirty years old. Living in Cuba, no education, doesn't speak English, doesn't have money, has two jobs, works in a shoe factory and and and is a butcher. somehow realize oh

1:52:37 Fidel Castro, this was probably bad. I had to go to a country that like I don't know anybody Yeah, I don't speak the language. And like that's just one choice. You know. three decades later or whatever, I'm gonna be born and now I'm born in a a you know, a capitalistic

1:52:50 Greatest country, in my opinion, greatest country in the world. As opposed to that, like that one decision. by somebody I don't remember. Like ripples through the entire generations. I think it's a very interesting thing to contemplate when you were trying to make your decisions. The last thing on his list was was grandfather. What was the last thing on yours?

1:53:07 The story was so overwhelming I honestly don't remember. Husband or father, one of those two. Um To me those are the most interesting Roles in life.

1:53:18 Um You know you and I have talk y you know how I feel about those two things. And So it's probably one of those two where I probably cheated and said, Can I have both? Um

1:53:29 And I hope it's you know, I hope it's that till it's grandfather, I guess. Uh but but the the The available we said I said something like this earlier, but The depths available in those relationships. Are

1:53:43 Crazy to me. I can't Belief that every капл єр. You I I find a new level of those things. I just can't believe every time it happens, I'm like, I can't believe it's happening again. And

1:53:55 In terms of like a place that can yield rewards. Um Th those are the most interesting. To me. But

1:54:04 Uh More generally, like the maybe this is the theme of our conversation today, that the The set of Small set of relationships.

1:54:13 of with people for whom I would do anything. And that's how I'm wired. Like there's a certain Category person, you're one of them. Yeah. Whatever you need.

1:54:23 You need to explain it. Like, I'll do it. And getting to that point with people. I don't think it life's too short and and

1:54:32 You know, there's only so much energy in a day and so you can't do this for a thousand people. But you can do it for ten. Fifteen, you know, if all Dunbar's number or something, you could probably do it for fifteen. And That is my prized possession. That list of people.

1:54:45 For whom I would do anything. Is my Highest possession. And I think that that can probably be true for just about anybody.

1:54:54 And so I try, hope. to act in a certain way to deserve that Group of people. And even if they even if they don't feel the same way about me, that's okay.

1:55:03 If I'm in their list of fifty and I'm fifteen, it's fine. Um Yeah, I think I think that That role game is quite fun.'Cause it it It I think it pulls out of you like where you have the most energy.

1:55:15 I think this exactly what like we talked about today is like why I'm so obsessed with having conversations with You know. People I find interesting, obviously people I have like deep relationships with because like This is why I'm gonna go. keep holding on to this idea that I'm not interviewing people, I'm having conversations because we talk all the time. I had no idea

1:55:33 where this conversation was going. And it went in places like I learned stuff about you that I did not know. And so I really appreciate you saying yes to me and Coming kicking and screaming on. I wanna end. By turning it around on you. What is the kindest thing someone's ever done

1:55:50 For you. One is Uh They're related. So I'll tell them in order.

1:55:58 The first was I had a cousin. I come from an Irish Catholic family where when you go to the Family reunion, you get a sheet that looks like one of those maps from the nineties where you just have to like keep unfolding it because there's just so goddamn many people. And so I have um

1:56:14 I have cousins who are technically my like third or fourth cousins that feel in my family more like a first cousin. One of my third cousins was a guy named Tim O'Shaughnessy. And When I I was a bad student in high school. I was like a very good student as a as a young kid.

1:56:30 I went to this giant high school. In uh in Connecticut, like four thousand students And I just party way too hard and didn't get good grades and didn't take it seriously. And so I there was a day

1:56:44 Uh I remember I remember it very distinctly. I was at a friend's house, having stayed up too late the night before And I my dad called me and said, Hey, you know, you should you should probably come home. There's a whole bunch of very small envelopes here from colleges. So I actually got

1:57:00 I got rejected from every college I applied to. Uh the first time I applied to colleges. And I got all the rejection letters on the same day. The bad day. Um

1:57:11 So then I reapplied to some other schools. I I had wanted to go to the University of Notre Dame. And I called him and I said Uh where are some schools that have a compatible curriculum with yours?'Cause I would really love to work hard and then transfer. So they give me a list. I went to one of those schools. I got I got very good grades.

1:57:28 I transferred to Notre Dame. So now I'm a sophomore at Notre Dame. And Um I didn't know anybody. I met they d they do a it's not like freshman year where you have all this amazing orientation. You transfer to they're like Here's your room number, like see you later.

1:57:41 Um, so I met like a couple other transfer students and that that was it. And back to being shy, like I wasn't at the time good at like navigating a new social situation. I just I was I wasn't good at it. So Tim, who I had met like maybe w I didn't know Tim well. You know, Tim was from the Midwest, um

1:57:57 I didn't know him that well growing up. She Uh Took it upon himself. to

1:58:04 Come meet me. Find me. He I remember very distinctly he brought me a fake ID. Uh. He

1:58:11 He went so out of his way for like the first six months to like organ transplant me into his social Circle. And like maybe Tim owed me a beer or two, you know, a couple couple nights out and a beer was his obligation as a family member. But instead he would like call ahead to his friends saying, like, I'm sick I can't go out, but Patrick's coming out. Can you just like

1:58:31 Show him a good time, just like over and over and over again. Like literally, he just injected me into this community. Tim is the reason that I I met my wife, which I'm gonna come back to in a second. met my best man, met the only other groomsman in my wedding that wasn't a family member. Um So

1:58:46 You know, through this act of over the top kindness of just There's nothing in it for him. He was just doing the right thing. It sort of set me up for the rest of my life. Which brings me to the second thing. So

1:58:57 Um My first night at Notre Dame. Tim shows up with this fake ID that says I'm five foot four with blonde hair and blue eyes. And we go to a place called Boat Club. Uh

1:59:08 Which let me in with this fake ID and was shut down for letting people in with this sort of fake ID like three weeks later. Permanently. May it rest in peace. And I walked into Go club and the story of meeting Lauren my wife was

1:59:21 That was my first night in Notre Dame. The first bar I walked into and she was the first girl that I talked to. And Uh So that that is a crazy stroke of

1:59:31 Divine luck or something. Um But it was lucky because I was nineteen when I met her, she was twenty. And

1:59:39 You know, we we've been together and married and have kids ever since. And The true answer to kindness is her because. For Twenty years now.

1:59:49 We we just crossed the point of our lives where I've been with her more than I haven't in my life, which is so crazy. I'm I'm not I'm not young anymore, I'm forty, but not old. And to have been with her for more than half my life and to have grown up as an adult. Whatever they say your prefrontal cortex like matures when you're twenty five or something. So like six years with her where I didn't even have a fully developed brain. Um It's by far the number one Blessing is that she

2:00:15 Uh Yeah, we created this we have created this life together. In a way that I I I

2:00:24 the thousand things that ten thousand things that she's done that add up to that twenty years. is like the very clear true answer. Um Tim tragically died very young. Um

2:00:36 Which was awful. But I think about him all the time because without him. none of this would happen and this life wouldn't exist. And so I love this story because and I love this question.

2:00:47 Because Whole lives are downstream of simple Quick.

2:00:54 Uh and without Tim my life doesn't look anything like what it looks like today. All the things I care the most about. Don't exist. Probably. And so I remind myself of that every day, which is why I love asking this question.

2:01:08 That was awesome. Now everybody else gets to see what I get to see in private and this is why you should do more podcasts. Thanks, Patrick. Thanks, buddy. If you enjoyed this episode, visit Colossus.com. You'll find every episode of this podcast complete with hand edited transcripts. You can also subscribe to Colossus, our quarterly print, digital, and private audio publication featuring in-depth profiles of the founders, investors, and companies that we admire most. Learn more at Colossus.com slash subscribe.

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