#1 Habit Expert: Here's how you become dramatically better

0:00 All right, Charles, I wanna show you something. So in two thousand and fourteen I wrote about how I lost weight, but previously I used your book a year before because I had a little bit of a drinking issue and it was frankly was kinda ruining my life. And I read your book and the idea of the habit loop. Change my life. And That's why I'm so excited to talk to you.

0:21 I feel like I caroose Well be what I want to I put my law in it like a day song on the road less travel never. Your book changed my life. probably more than any book I've ever read. And I have read probably thousands of books. So I'll tell you the story. So basically, uh yeah, I had like an issue with with alcohol.

0:39 And I read your book and you you can correct me if I'm wrong, but the way that I distinctly remember it is that a habit doesn't go away. You just have to change part of the routine and replace it. That's exactly right. one of the ways that people continue being stuck on this treadmill, and this sounds very oversimplified, but it's true in my case. Like you start like craving carbohydrates the day after you drink. Like you still crave because I was drinking like twenty beers a day and I still craved like the sugar. And so I actually just made a small habit. Every time I wanted to uh drink alcohol, a beer

1:11 I ate a pack of Ms and that like sugar replacement actually helped me like kick booze. Then I replaced that with non alcoholic beer. And I got fat along the way, but I was like, I'll get fat and then I'll I'll kick that habit later. I love this. I look because you're exactly right. So so for folks who aren't familiar with it, the the habit loop is What research tells us is that every habit in our life and about forty to forty five percent of what we do every day is a habit.

1:39 Every habit has these three components. There's a cu, which is like a trigger for the automatic behavior. And then the routine, right? Picking up the beer and drinking it, or you going for a run if you're if you have an exercise habit. And when we do that, it delivers a reward to us. Every habit in your life delivers a reward, whether you're aware of it or not. And over time, our brain begins to associate this cue, this routine, and this reward into a little package that happens almost automatically. Inside our brain. And at the core of it, you're exactly right, is this craving.

2:12 And w there's a woman named Doctor Anne Grabiel at the at MIT who's done research on habits. And what she's found is that If you create a habit in, say, a rat's brain. For running a maze, and then you remove it from the maze for literally years. And then bring it back and drop it in the maze again. It that habit re emerges instantaneously, and it's because

2:31 This Q routine and reward the neural pathways associated with those three things are have gotten thicker and thicker and thicker. And so when you start trying extinguish a habit when you just say, I'm gonna stop drinking. Just, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna white knuckle it and give up cigarettes. Because that neurists, you still have that craving. You still have that urge. So you're exactly right.

2:53 The key is Don't try and extinguish the habit. Rather try and change it. Find a new behavior like eating Ms. That corresponds to the old cue and that delivers something similar to the old reward. And in doing so, you're kind of overriding that neural pathway inside your brain.

3:11 And I do this with uh the help of the doctor. And I was like, look, the doctor was like just get fat for a little while. We'll we'll figure that out later. So I got fat. And then uh that's when I wrote this blog post of how I lost weight. And the way that I lost weight, it was very simple. You had this idea called uh Keystone Habit. Which I don't know if you invented that term, but that's crazy because like it's like a term that everyone uses now. But basically my keystone habit was that I would put my running shoes Next to my bed.

3:39 And then I would sleep in my workout gear that morning. So when I woke up I was in my running gear or in my, you know, what uh workout gear and then I ha I when I s when my feet touch the floor. They went into the shoes. Yeah. That's a really smart a really smart cue. And yeah, I actually did come up with a phrase Keystone habit. It's really that's awesome. Well my my wife is a biologist and there's this concept of keyst keystone species.

4:04 And so I was talking through this idea, which exists in the scientific literature, but had never been kind of called this. And we were like, it's kind of like a keystone habit. But what I love about what you just said is that so there's a there's a writer named David Epstein who um he's written a bunch of books. He will also sleep in his workout clothes. And it's because That cue, when you wake up and you throw your feet out of bed and you're already in your clothes, that cue. It just makes it so easy to like take the next step and like go out the door, right? Like you probably at this point when you are running, you're not even thinking about running and as you start.

4:35 You're just kind of on autopilot. You're doing what feels natural. And this is the power of habits is that We can choose these behaviors that we want to encourage. And we can make them not a product of willpower or of, you know, sort of white knuckling it. But rather something that happens automatically because there's just part of our brain, the basal ganglia that exists just to make habits. And that's what ultimately makes us successful is choosing the habits that we want, figuring out how to design them by paying attention to the cues and rewards around them.

5:05 And then making those behaviors so automatic. That you don't have to decide to go for a run in the morning. You don't have to decide to skip that that beer. You don't have to decide to sit down and You know, pound out all those emails you've been thinking about. It just happens automatically and as a result, it feels much easier. I uh my my last company, I think we had thirty ish employees when I sold.

5:26 And then my current company now, we are at around that. And both of those Stages are when systems and processes start to really matter. Yeah and there's this like phrase in the CEO world. Something like you don't rise to like your willpower, you fall to your systems.

5:43 Or something like that, where it's like the system is what like dictates whether you're gonna be successful or not, not like you know, willpower or not like how you feel. And the point being at a company you have to have systems because that's what you fall that's what's what's what you default to. That's and that's what you rely on. Yeah, and can I ask you, okay, so when you've thought about the systems you've created now that you guys are at thirty people and the systems really matter. What's a system that you've developed that you're really proud of, like an institutional organizational habit?

6:10 I'll give you one really simple example, but I will say like people like me, entrepr like entrepreneurial people. We are That is required to start stuff. It's the exact opposite typically of a processed

6:23 trading skill set. Oh, interesting. I work my ass off at creating and sticking to processes, but it does not come natural. But I'll tell you one. That has made a huge difference. Every day at three PM

6:36 The company stops for ten minutes. And we clean. We clean the office. Because I cannot stand clutter at our office. And the the what I'm trying to convince my staff, and it's actually working, they're doing this at their homes and everything, which is we're just trying to like

6:51 uh sweat the small stuff and do the small things really nicely and it starts with like cleaning your bed or making your bed. Yeah. Uh, and so I'm really proud of that. It's and I'm sure you're giving everyone this sense of accomplishment, right? Like cleaning up the clutter is not that big an accomplishment, but to come together and have someone say, like This is who we are. This is how we prove to ourselves what what we stand for. That's enormously rewarding. Yeah. And it and it actually gets to this other thing that really interesting about psychology, which is

7:18 Which is what's known as revealed versus stated preferences. That oftentimes when you ask people Do you do you want to exercise every day? They'll say, Yes, I want to exercise every day. It's really important to me. But when we look at their behavior, they exercise like twice a week, right? So the revealed preference is actually different from the stated preference. And our brain pays attention to that. Our brain actually is kind of skeptical of our stated preferences, but it pays attention to how we behave. to figure out who we really are. And so this act of cleaning up every day at three o'clock And I'm sure

7:51 Look, you could go a day without cleaning at three. And The company's not gonna fall apart, right? But it's not about organizing the clutter, it's about revealing to ourselves, proving to ourselves that we are the kinds of people who do this. We are the kinds of people who we

8:05 We say we are. That's really powerful. All right, so this episode is all about excellence. A while back, I shared my personal framework for building excellence in my own life. And the team at HubSpot turned it into a thirty day operating system that you can check out right now. It breaks down the systems that have took me ten years to figure out and shows how exactly I use them day to day. These are systems that genuinely changed my life.

8:30 So if you want to build a good life Scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Now let's get back to the show. How many copies did the Power of Habit sell? Gosh, uh worldwide it's sold over ten million now.

8:43 So crazy. It's been great. Yeah. And the best part is just getting emails from folks like like with stories like yours that say, you know, I struggled with drinking for years and then I finally figured out How to How to think about the cues and rewards to make this easier to overcome. That's what's really meaningful.

9:01 That's crazy, man. That's a lot of copies. Did you uh and where were you before? You were a reporter? Yeah, so I I I was a reporter of the New York Times. I was uh and in fact I I continued being a reporter for the New York Times for a number of years after the book came out. Weirdly, I actually The same year that the Power of Habit came out, I won a Pulitzer prize for um for a series I had done at the New York Times. And so 2013. was like kind of a crazy year. Was that the Apple, the Apple series? That was the Apple series. Yeah, yeah, exactly. The Apple series. And one of the things that I learned, I I was talking to Jim Collins, the guy who wrote G Good to Great last night on on stage because he has a new book out. And he talked about the

9:37 The bewildering fog of success. And that year, twenty thirteen, was exactly that for me. It like on paper, it was the best year of my life. I had a best selling book, I won a Pulitzer Prize. In reality, it was like the hardest year of my life because And and you know this, when when success comes it can kind of catch you off guard with all of its demands and

9:59 And emotions. And so that was that was like a big year, but also in retrospect a tough year. And and since then I've written a couple more books, including Super Communicators, which which you'd mentioned. And now I write for the for the New Yorker magazine. I remember I felt uh defensive of you when Atomic Habits came out because you were my guy. And I'm friends with James, um, and I I'm sure you are too. But when I saw Atomic Habits come out, I was like But I already read the original. This is very nice of you. The truth is, as whatever it takes to get it into people's hands, like It feels so good to be able to be the master of your own habits. It feels so good to be the person you want to be.

10:40 And so whatever it takes to like To get that empowerment into people's lives, I am all for that. So like a lot of our listeners are like Um type A

10:51 go getters who are probably a little neurotic at times and Maybe they're like me where I like I'm pretty like emotional and ra re I I react to things fast, which is kind of silly. Is there a way that you have seen a lot of these like type A people use the power of habit. at work or in their career.

11:10 To Be more productive. Yeah, absolutely, what I hear a lot from from executives is Is is them saying, look, I was in this bad pattern that I didn't even recognize was a pattern, which is

11:22 I knew I had to write an email, right? It was a tough email. I didn't I didn't want to like I didn't want to deal with a question that the email was asking. I knew I might disappoint someone And and so I would put it off. I would basically you know it'd be in my inbox, I would say, I'm gonna deal with this later. And Hours would go by, days would go by.

11:40 And what's happening during that period Is that there is a cognitive load, a cognitive burden associated with that email going unanswered. Right? There's some part of your brain that says, like, look, you've got this. Task you need to get done. And it's an unpleasant task. You don't like thinking about it. You like shying away from it. But the more you shy away from it, the more it becomes like this monster in your head.

12:02 And sometimes it's the smallest stuff. Totally. And What we know is that if you build this habit, that your immediate response is to hit reply and just deal with it right away. The benefits of that are huge. Right. Now you might not write the most polished email on the face of the planet, right? You might not have all the time to think it through. So you have to you have to question, is this something I can respond to right away?

12:25 But when we get it off our plate, what we're doing is we're freeing up our brain to think about other things. Our brain is constantly keeping track of the thousands of things that might be threats or might be opportunities or might be crises. And the more that we clear our brain and give it space to think about the good stuff, the opportunities, the ways to move forward, the new ideas. The more we're empowering ourselves to actually Get things done. So I have, as we speak, I have three hundred and forty nine unread text messages. Okay. And I have a shitload of voicemails.

12:59 Tons of Twitter and Instagram DMs. The amount of inbound and notifications and partially because I'm on a podcast that has a lot of listeners, but even if you're not that The amount of Inbound notifications that people get. It's unsustainable. So it so just because you get an email, like like that we have this instinct to hit reply does not mean you have to reply, right? Because another habit that's equally important.

13:23 is just to ignore. Like the fact that somebody sends me an email That does not create an obligation on my to do list to respond to them. What it does is it gives me the option to kind of choose do I want to respond? And so one of the things that I do, cause very similarly, there's just an overwhelming amount of stuff that comes in. I try and be really disciplined in my

13:42 Might. first habit, my first instinct is just to hit delete. Like when something and oftentimes someone will send me a really interesting article or there will be something I'm like, oh man, I should really go back and read that. That's really I wanna save that for later. And instead what I do is I hit delete because I know I'm never gonna go back and read it, right? And I don't think that we have to get to inbox zero. I don't think we have to Interact with every single thing that's sent to us. I think what we should have is a habit.

14:07 To graze over it and to forgive ourselves for hitting delete. Because ultimately The most important choice that we make is where to spend our attention. And if we're making that choice based on the whims of other people because they send us an email or a DM

14:23 Then we're not actually making a choice. We're abdicating that responsibility. It's sort of like um I think we had uh Tim Ferris on and people make fun of Tim Ferris because he they're like dude, you're working more than four hours a week. You know what I mean? And so he sort of like kinda created his own little trap. When you have bad habits in your life.

14:44 I have to imagine that people like your buddies mess with you, they're like No, my wife is is merciless. What bad habits do you have still that you have been unable to break? So he here's the thing about habits is In our brain, there's no such thing as a bad habit or a good habit, right? The basal ganglia is this part of our brain that creates habits and it actually evolved just to do that. And every animal on earth actually has a basal ganglia. If we couldn't form habits, we would not evolve because it we would have to spend too much time thinking about whether we pick up the rock or the apple and take a bite out of it. So habits are really, really important.

15:20 But to our brain. Our brain just says, look, if there's a pattern of a cue, a routine, and a reward, I'm gonna make that easier and easier to do. It doesn't say this is a good habit or this is a bad habit. It's up to us to decide which habits are good and which are bad, which ones we wanna encourage and discourage. And so I would say I have lots of bad habits, right? Things that But they're bad habits that I choose. Like I like to have

15:44 Once or twice a week I like to have a cocktail when I come home from work. Right. And that in some people's eyes could be a bad habit. But for me, it's just a nice way of signaling to myself that I can relax. Some people might see that as a bad habit, but for me

15:59 It speaks to like how I like What I like about life. So I would say the thing that's happened to me a as a uh as a product of my research is That I've recognized

16:09 That you get to choose your habits. And just because other people think they're good or bad, that does not mean that they have to be good or bad for you. The key is to have agency, to have control over your life. And the way we do that is by not just focusing on the behavior, but But by looking for these cues and these rewards, looking for these leverage points that we can use. To change and become the person we want to be.

16:33 And frankly, it's challenging. It's challenging to decide which is the thing. Yeah. I think that I I could I call myself like a high functioning person. Like I I think I have a a lot of horsepower. And uh the strength of that is that I can run through a wall. And the weakness of that is that I can run through a wall because

16:52 I have this thing called a five year Diary. Where every year on the same day. Uh uh every day on a on a page, I write how I feel that day and then the the next year I see the same page. So I can like see how I'm feeling a year prior. I I was joking with Sean, but I w my uh co host on this podcast. I was like, dude, I've been com I wrote about this thing in my journal this day last year, and I complained about the same problem. I'm like, if I'm supposed to be this high functioning person that like

17:19 changes or adapts and grows. I'm sure not doing it. What the hell? Why can't I change? And so It is sort of Interesting that you become like a prisoner of habits and what you said was cool because You do want to become

17:33 this person who can change their life. But the fact is, my opinion is most people don't change. And I think it's really because I think it's like almost impossible to change. Well, and what what I hear in that that diary that you've you mentioned is What's known as a cognitive routine. So what's what are you really doing when you write that one line? Because writing one line is not like It's not like life changing, right? To like sit down and write like a one liner about how you feel about your day.

17:56 But what you are doing is you're creating a mental habit for yourself. And the most important habits tend to be mental habits. In psychology, they're known as cognitive routines. And their job is to allow us to think more deeply when thinking deeply is hardest. Right, when we're feeling stressed out or when we're feeling overwhelmed, or when we don't have that much time. We only have time to write one line in a little diary. What that cognitive routine does, that mental habit, is it causes you to pause and look at the previous year. And the fact that you say to yourself, Okay, look, I'm stuck in the same rut that I was a year ago. And actually, I didn't even really recognize that. Or if I did recognize it, it's just I wasn't paying attention to it. But this is something that's Forcing me to think about this rut, to ask myself like

18:38 Why am I in this rut? How do I get out of this rut? Do I really care about this rut that much? Those cognitive routines, these mental habits that we build for ourselves. are really, really powerful because they allow us to do the thing that you just mentioned, which is Make decisions without being exhausted. And one of the most powerful is

18:57 When I come home from work, I describe my day in like excruciating detail to my wife. And she does not really care about my day. Like she doesn't want to know like all the specifics of the meeting I was sitting through. But I'm not really doing it for her. I'm doing it for me. This is my cognitive routine to help me review my day and figure out what I did well and what I did poorly. And building those cognitive routines, those mental habits. That is how we end up becoming successful.

19:21 Because it's it's those small little habits that determine If we're using our attention wisely or not. You know that feeling when strategy is done, the brief is written, and everyone is aligned. And you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create the content. That someone is you, and it's due tomorrow.

19:40 Breeze Assistant can help. It works right inside of HubSpot. drafting, campaign copy, blog posts, emails, all in your brand voice. all grounded in your actual customer data. So don't just create content, you create content that converts.

19:54 Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses. You have this book called Supercommunicators. I haven't read it yet, but I read uh a great article on it. And When I was younger, I read this book called How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yeah. Dale Carnegie. Yeah, it it changed my life. I'm not naturally like a very good conversationalist or a good people person. I uh my my family calls me a little neurospicy. You know, I had a

20:21 I I kinda had to learn a little bit. Like I had to like read a few playbooks on how to like have like normal interactions. And so Dale Carnegie kinda changed my life. And there was a handful of takeaways from that book. And one of the books was basically if you have a conversation with someone. If you let them do most of all the talking and you ask them all about their lives and their themselves Uh, they're gonna think that it's the greatest conversation they've ever had. And your job, uh your book, Super Communicators, uh did a good

20:49 I I believe the premise of the book is like if you ask Not only if you but you you took a step further. If you ask more questions, but also ask these I don't know, you give some questions, but y you give like a framework. If you ask different types of questions that fall under a bucket that I w I want you to tell me. you will get people to open up more, is that right? Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. So so one of the things that we know i is

21:10 First of all, we are all super communicators at one time or another, right? We we all know like the right thing to say to our friends to make them feel better. Or or sometimes you walk into a meeting and you just like you know exactly what to say to get everyone on your side. But there are some people who are consistent super communicators. People who can Seem to connect with Anyone, any time. And the difference between them and everyone else is not this inborn

21:34 like capacity. The it's not that they like are born with a gift of gab. It's that they Think about communication a little bit more. And they recognize that communication is just a set of very simple skills that if you practice them, they become habits. And when when you start practicing them and using them, you can kind of treat everyone like your best friend and they all they'll all respond the same way.

21:53 And one of those skills is asking questions. Consistent super communicators ask 10 to 20 times as many questions as the average person. And some of those questions are like just invitations, like Oh, what'd you think about that? Or did you see that movie? Like it's invitations into the conversation. But some of them are what are known within psychology as deep questions. And a deep question is something that asks me about my values or my beliefs or my experiences. And that can sound a little bit intimidating, but it's as simple as like. If you meet someone who's a doctor, instead of saying, Oh, what hospital do you work at, asking them, Oh, what made you decide to go to medical school? Right, that second question.

22:30 That second question is something that invites them to tell you who they really are. They gotta tell you about like their dad getting sick and seeing seeing the doctors help him, or that they they wanna be a healer. They wanna help their community. Deep questions are the things that allow us to really connect with other people. Because they invite others. To tell us who they are. And then the best part is

22:52 It's very natural to answer our own deep question ourselves to say, Oh, you became a doctor because you saw your uncle get sick. That's really interesting. I became a lawyer because I had a brother in law who got who got arrested when I was a kid and I thought that that was really, like, really wrong. Now we're having a conversation about who we are. We're connecting with each other. And that means that we're gonna trust each other more, we're gonna like each other more, and more importantly, we're gonna be able to hear each other much more accurately.

23:19 This sounds like it's such a dumb question. But why do I care? Like why do I want someone to think that I'm a super connector? Like why do I want them to Open up to me. Yeah, absolutely. So okay, so there's a couple of ways. And first of all, you don't have to

23:33 communicate with everyone, right? Sometimes you're gonna get in the Uber and you just wanna check your phone in the back of the Uber. You don't want to have a conversation with the driver. That's okay. You don't you don't have to have any conversation you don't want to have. But there are times that we do want to connect with other people. And the reasons why is because We are a pro social species. The way that our brains have evolved is to push us to connect with other people because connecting with other people over time has been the most successful strategy in building things, building communities, building families, building products.

24:04 And when we connect with someone else, when we communicate with them. Even if we disagree with them about some pretty fundamental things. There is this Almost Ha

24:14 This almost subconscious thing that happens within our brain that we're powerless against, which is If I feel connected to you, if I feel like you're listening to me. And I'm listening to you. And that we're actually connected somehow and and within neuroscience this is known as neural entrainment. In that moment

24:30 We trust each other more. And if you think about it, trust is at the core of pro sociality. I can't I can't police you all the time to see if you're If you're a threat or if you're being genuine. All I can do is try and figure out whether I can trust you enough.

24:46 Live in the In the hut next to me without without fear that you're gonna come in and kill me. And the way I figure out whether I should trust you or not and like you and want to work with you.

24:57 Is By connecting with you because if that connection feels genuine. then it doesn't mean I'm gonna give you my life savings. But it means that For the time being, I've said

25:07 This person is at least trustworthy enough that I know who they are. They know who I am. I have a hard time seeing them betraying me. And so as a result, we can live side by side peacefully. And if you think about it in business, trust is everything. Right? Mm-hmm.

25:22 The reason you're successful in business, the reason you're successful in life, the reason you're successful in romantic relationships. is because you figure out ways to connect with other people. That are not just transactional, but are real. That's that's fascinating. So

25:36 I can ask questions that Yeah, like V th I think you said value based. What else could I do? Okay, so so the first thing is ask more questions, right? Ask these deep questions. The second thing is

25:48 The you need to be having the same kind of conversation as the person you're talking to. And explain this. So when I started writing super communicators, one of the reasons why was because I had fallen into this bad pattern where I'd come home from work and I'd start complaining about my day and Tell my wife you know, like my Coworkers don't appreciate me and my boss doesn't realize what a genius I am.

26:08 And she would give me some good advice. She would say something like Why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other a little bit better. But instead of being able to hear her advice, I would get even more upset. And I would start like saying you know, you should be outraged on my behalf. You should be like you should be on my side. And I couldn't figure out why there was this tension between us. And so I went to these researchers and they said, Well, the the main thing that's happening here is When you're having a discussion, you think you know what that discuss is about, right? You're talking about your day or next year's budget.

26:37 But actually if we look inside your brain, what we see is there's a bunch of different kinds of conversations all happening at the same time. And in general, these conversations tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're making plans together or we're solving problems. But then there's emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling. And I don't want you to solve my feelings, I want you to empathize. And then there's social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other and how we relate to other people, the identities that are important to us.

27:04 And they said what we've discovered is All three of these conversations are equally important, and all three of them will probably happen during a discussion. But if you and the person you are talking to are not having the same kind of conversation at the same moment. You cannot fully hear each other. You definitely won't feel connected to each other. Your trust in each other will not go up.

27:25 So the key is this is the second big skill in addition to asking more questions that super communicators, consistent supercommunicators have is Pay attention to what kind of conversation is happening. Does this feel practical? Does it feel emotional? Does it feel social? What kind of words is the other person using? And then match them. What's known within psychology is the matching principle.

27:44 If you're talking about next year's budget and you say something like Look, I'm really anxious that we get this right because I don't want to lay people off. As a supercommunicator, in my head, I should be hearing Oh, you're actually having an emotional conversation right now. We we're not talking about the budget, we're talking about how you feel.

28:00 And I need to empathize with that before we can start talking about practical things. I need to say to you. I understand exactly what you're feeling. I feel exactly the same way. I want you to know My number one goal here. Is that we don't have any layoffs. that we get to protect our people.

28:15 So with that in mind Can we talk about the budget, like how to how to how to actually get that done? In other words. With your permission, could we move from an emotional to a practical conversation together? When I do that, what I'm doing is I'm signaling to you that I'm listening to you, I understand your mindset.

28:32 And we are getting aligned. We are getting gnarly and trained. We are getting in sync. Which means that we're gonna hear each other much Much better. And we're gonna trust each other more. I'm obsessed with like I I love uh history and I've read um

28:46 Biographies on a huge uh a lot of the presidents. And three presidents that are very, very different. And are very effective communicators are George Washington. Mm-hmm.

28:57 Bill Clinton. And Donald Trump. Yeah. They communicate drastically differently. But I would argue they're all very effective.

29:05 I I absolutely agree. George Washington was significantly more stoic and mysterious and spoke Seldom and when he did spoke. You listen no matter what. And he had this like regal status. Bill Clinton was

29:20 Very charming. And then Donald Trump, his shtick is more like uh way more crude, like riffing with you, like we're we're boys. Oh, absolutely. In fact, I as a reporter, I've been to a lot of Trump rallies and And whether you you like Donald Trump or whether you intensely dislike Donald Trump. Going to a rally is well worth the time because what you see is

29:41 He is a super communicator. And he uses the this exact same thing thing that I just talked about. He leans, he proves he's listening to the crowd by leaning into the type of conversation they want to have. So On a stage.

29:53 Donald Trump will say something. And and if the crowd starts applauding and over and and reacting to it. He'll say it again and then he'll just start riffing on that. That's why that's why from a stage he often says like things that in retrospect look a little crazy is because he's kind of feeding off the crowd. The crowd is telling him if he gets up on stage and he says, You know, something emotional like I worry about the future of the nation because we're being overrun by immigrants, and the crowd just kinda goes nuts. He'll lean into that and he recognizes this is an emotional conversation, right? This is this is not about the practicalities of immigration reform. This is people feeling like they're lost at home, like they're losing ground.

30:32 And he'll lean into that. Now I've also met with D Donald Trump one on one in in like you know settings where he's meeting with reporters. The dude asked questions constantly. Right. And a lot of the questions are like about him. He's like, What do you think? Why do you think these people hate me so much? Or what do you think about this thing that I did? But the fact is that

30:49 Fact of the matter is, instead of giving little speeches, he's asking questions. He's drawing you into the conversation. I the truth of the matter is that We are all really good at communication, right? Our because we're a pro social species, our brain has evolved to be really good at communication. And the people who are best at communication. It is not because

31:08 They were born that way. It's because they think about communication. Right? Bill Clinton's a great example. If you ask Bill Clinton, were you always a good communicator? he says no. He says that when he was a kid he actually had trouble making friends with other kids. He didn't know how to talk to them. But he said that in high school he really studied how kids talked to each other. Like he felt like this is something and that because his parents got divorced. He had to be the peacemaker between them. He trained himself to think just a little bit more about communication, and that's what makes him a great communicator. And all of us can do that.

31:37 I'm not a Donald Trump supporter, um, but I am intoxicated but like I think he's hilarious. Like if I I have to remove the fact that like I don't agree with what he just said, but I can also acknowledge I'm like that's So funny. Like Were you intoxicated when you met him? No, I was not I was not intoxicated when I when I met him. And I I would also say I'm not a Donald Trump fan. I I like it. I as a particularly as a reporter, I try and not be a fan of anyone.

32:02 Um, but this running for office because you have to be skeptical. But I I will say this about Trump is that he comes off as being very authentic. And this is another thing that super communicators do really well, right? You believe that you're seeing the real version of them. And the way that we actually create a sense of authenticity, this has been studied a lot. Is that we'll often do something that's a little bit vulnerable. Yeah. And we tend to misunderstand what this word vulnerability means. We think it's like c crying on each other's shoulders or something like that.

32:30 Actually, vulnerability is a very specific thing that happens inside a brain. Vulnerability is a neural cascade that occurs when I say something to you that you could judge. And if in that moment you withhold judgment And more importantly, if you share something about yourself that I could judge in return. then we will feel closer to each other. So think about

32:52 When Donald Trump's on that stage, you know that like weird dance he does? Right? Yeah. It's not it's not an attractive dance, right? He's not a he's not a graceful man on on on his two feet. And yet It's incredibly endearing because it's vulnerable.

33:06 Now it's not vulnerable in a way that like Makes them open to attack. It's vulnerable in that he's sharing something that you could judge. You could say, That's the dumbest dance I've ever seen in my entire life. But when You withhold that judgment.

33:20 You actually feel closer to him. And so one of the things that he does that All great leaders do. is that they reveal things about themselves. They They allow these moments of vulnerability when I'm gonna say something that I know you could judge, I'm gonna make it available to you for your judgment.

33:36 Because in that moment You will believe I am authentic. You will believe you are seeing the real me. And that's really, really powerful. I think that word I hate I hate the word authenticity.

33:48 I hate that word. Yes. Um and I'll explain why. I um I think it's bullsh. I actually don't think you should be authentic because the fact is is that We're all performing. And I want to convince

34:01 this girl to go on a date with me. I want to convince this employee to work at my company. I want to convince someone to do everything. Saying to be authentic, that's like saying someone just be yourself and they'll like you. No, don't be yourself. Change yourself so you are a better person and that people then will like you. So I'm gonna push back a little bit because I actually think

34:18 I think what you just said is authenticity. I don't think authenticity means It's all an out. Well I I think but I think authenticity is choosing Not necessarily which act, choosing which part of myself I want to expose right now. Right. Like the truth of the matter is I could

34:34 L in this conversation. You could have spent this conversation. Just telling me how impressive you are, like all of your successes. But instead You the the act that you choose, the aspect of yourself you choose to

34:47 to share with me. is like a really curious guy who like doesn't have all the answers and and recognizes that luck is part of it and hard work is part of it and wants to understand how to get better. I don't think that's an inauthentic display of who you are. I think it's you authentically choosing which part of yourself to share with the world. And I think that I I I understand the skepticism towards authenticity. The word has become like such a bugaboo of meaning like

35:14 Meaning so many different things. But what I think for me it means is Genuinely wanting to connect with another person. And wanting to connect with them on both their terms and my terms. And saying like look, like

35:29 This is who I am. I I want you to know who I am. The real me, at least to some degree. And I might that doesn't mean I'm gonna necessarily tell you all about my childhood trauma or my drinking problems. But I want you to be able to know who I am on some level the real me, and I want to know the real you.

35:47 Енець that act. of actually saying I want to be authentic or I want to be vulnerable that creates the connection. It's not the authenticity itself. It's the act of saying I'm willing to be vulnerable with you. Because I want I want to connect with you.

36:02 That is the first and most important step for us actually feeling connected to each other. Who's a super communicator? That's a famous person that I should go and study. Ooh, gosh, that's a really good question. I mean, there's so many of them. I mean, honestly, one of them is Steve Jobs. And we don't think of Steve Jobs as a super communicator, right? Everything about Steve Steve Jobs is like he was such a jerk to his employees and he would create this reality distortion field. But if you go and you watch interviews with Steve Jobs, what you see is you see him

36:32 Constantly. Authentically sharing. who he is and then Asking questions and proving to the other person that he's listening to them. Right. So there's there's a number of speeches he gave at like graduate uh Stanford Graduate School of Business where

36:46 The clips that get put on social media are the clips of Steve Jobs talking about like doing LSD or like his vision. But if you watch the entire Time that he was in that classroom, what you see is that he, Steve Jobs, one of the most famous guys on earth. He spends like about a third of the time asking the students questions. Like what do you think about that? Why did you make that decision? What was your experience when you picked up this device? He is a guy who genuinely not only wants you to understand him, he wants to understand you. And you get that feeling, right? That's the Bill Clinton thing.

37:17 Like I've I I've met Bill Clinton also, and like the truth of the matter is Bill Clinton genuinely wants to charm and know the people he is talking to. What did he say to you? That uh was an example of charming.

37:29 Yeah, I had written this article. And and it's clear that like s one of his aides had briefed him that had written the article. But he comes up and he goes, Man, that article you wrote, it was just great. It was just great. And I'm wondering. What was the thing you carried away from it? Cause that you must know so much about this. It must have been so powerful for you. What did you carry away? And of course, the former president of the United States is asking me about my work. I'm like, I'm like, oh, Mr. President, let me tell you. Like, I'm so glad you read that, right? I was balled over by it. But like what he did is he asked me a question and he seemed genuinely curious in in the response. And to be honest, and maybe I'm just a sucker.

38:04 I believed him. I believed that he actually wanted to know. Because he's a curious guy. He wanted to know what I had learned, and I felt wonderful as a result. This is for the folks out there who have a business that does at least three million dollars a year in revenue. Because around this point, that's when you're able to look up after being heads down for years building your company. And you realize two things. One, you've done something great.

38:27 But you're still a long way from your final destination. And two, you look around and you realize I am all alone. I've outrun my peers. Which means you're now making ten million dollar decisions alone by yourself. And that is when mediocrity can creep in. My company Hampton, we solved this problem by giving a room of vetted peers of other entrepreneurs.

38:48 who are gonna hold you accountable Call you out on your nonsense and help show you the way. Because the fact is is that there's only a tiny number of people in your town who know what you're going through and who have been there. And they're hard to find. And if you can find them.

39:02 It's hard to have this explicit time, this explicit place where you sit down, where the rules are clear that we are here to help each other and to be one another's board of directors. The biggest risk is not failing. You have a company and it's working. You're gonna be fine, but the biggest risk is waking up ten years from now and saying, Shit. I barely grew in business and in life. And for people like you who are ambitious, wasted potential and regret is what we want to help you to avoid.

39:27 We have made so many of these groups and we have a thousand plus members and I know this stuff actually works, whether you work with Hampton or you get your own group on your own. But having a group like this, a group of people who you meet with in real life once a month It can change your life. It changed mine and I know it will change yours. So check it out. joinhampton dot com What's a good famous example?

39:48 of a speech or a moment in time that you point to, or you or multiple examples where that you point to where you're like, That's a textbook example of super communicating. Oh, so um so one of the my favorites is Ronald Reagan. So if you'll remember it was a long time ago. So you might have been too young and I was actually too young myself, but When Ronald Reagan was running for his second term, there were all these questions about his mental acuity, right? Like people there were all these articles about the fact that his memory was failing and

40:17 And he gets up on the s on the stage on the stage to to debate Walter Mondale. This is the second debate. And Mondale was uh was younger than him, yeah. Wha Wal Mondale was younger than him, and Mondale was like seen as like Like his reputation, he had never lost an election before. And he was seen as this like wonderkin, right? Like the the like his brain was so smart. And Ronald Reagan gets up on the stage and one of the first things he says is he makes a joke, he says I want you to know that during this debate I will at no time Make fun of my

40:48 Opponent's youth. And inexperience. Right. And everyone kinda laughs because they all realize what he's talking about. There's he's saying, like, look, like I I'm not gonna I I'm not gonna make fun of the fact that like he's younger than me because he's gonna say I'm too old and that my memory's going. And what it did is It first of all is kinda vulnerable, right? Like it's him admitting

41:07 that there's this criticism of him that he's aware of. It's exposing something that other people could judge. But then by making a joke of it He completely disarms the issue. Like in that moment. It stopped his mental acuity stopped being an issue. Now, if you'll remember, actually later in his second administration

41:25 This becomes an issue because it turns out that he's suffering from from what people think are early early signs of uh of Alzheimer's or dementia. So it was totally a legitimate issue to bring up during the election. But he just did this jujitsu by being a little bit vulnerable about it. About it and making a joke of it.

41:42 that all of a sudden it became an attack that didn't have any teeth. That's an example of supercommunication. And he just connected with people in that moment in a way that That surprised everyone. So asking um

41:56 Value based questions. Tactical vulnerability. Yeah. What else? So figuring out what kind of mindset, what kind of conversation is happening. Are you in an emotional mindset? Are you in a practical mindset? And then the last one is

42:12 Super communicators succeed because they not only listen, but they prove that they're listening. So there's this kind of like myth that like the key to listening is like close your mouth and open your ears. And that's the first step to listening, but it turns out study after study shows that is not enough on its own. The key to listening is to make listening an active process. It's to prove to you that I am paying attention to what you're saying. And you actually just did this really well. You repeated what I said, right? You were like, okay, here's the three things I've heard from you. You're proving that you're paying attention to it. So if I'm in a conversation with someone, particularly if I'm in a conflict conversation where we're disagreeing about something.

42:48 What I should do is I should use this technique called looping for understanding. Which is step one is I'm gonna ask you a question, preferably a deep question. Tell me why this issue is important to to you. Tell me what you really think about this question, like why it's why why this matters. I'm gonna listen to your answer and then step two is I'm gonna repeat back in my own words what I heard you say. And the key here is not mimicry. If I just mimic you, it doesn't work.

43:14 The key here is to prove to you that I've actually been thinking about what you've been saying. I've been paying attention. So what I heard you say is I heard you say that like You know, you wake you wear your your work out clothes. And I think that what I'm really hearing you say is Mm.

43:28 Working out is a keystone habit for you. It's a way that you tell yourself who you are. You prove your discipline in the morning. That's step two is I'm repeating back what I'm hearing, I'm adding something to it. And most people kind of do this intuitively, step one and step two as they get older. Step three is the one that I always forget. Is that when I say that I ask you if I got it right.

43:48 Did I hear you am I am I understanding the role that exercise plays in your your life correctly? Did did I get it? Because what I'm doing in that moment is I'm asking you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening. And if you acknowledge That I'm listening to you.

44:04 You become something like ten times more likely to listen to me in response. Mm. It's this inborn instinct known as social reciprocity. Yeah. That when we think someone's listening to us, we want to listen to them.

44:16 And so super communicators prove they are listening. They don't just sit there, you know, th they don't do the Dale Carnegie thing. They don't just ask question after question after question. They layer on top of that. proving that they're paying attention by saying things like, Oh, it's so interesting you mentioned that because something similar happened to me. Or I want to ask you about this thing that you said before, because it reminds me of this question I've been thinking about. They prove that they're paying attention and in doing so

44:42 we believe that they are listening to us because in fact they are listening to us. Dude, this is so interesting. And it becomes like meta because as you're like telling me things, I'm like, all right, I have to make sure that I do a loop when he's like No. But then the nice thing is, uh first of all, you do a lot of the stuff intuitively because you are a good communicator. It's not intuitive. I'm telling you, I had to learn all this. I was a really uncomfortable fourteen year old. And do you know what changed my life and I don't I don't mind admitting this because I'm happily married. But reading books on how to meet women.

45:14 When I was fourteen and fifteen I looked like Napoleon Dynamite. I was really goofy looking, I was uncomfortable, I didn't have a lot of guy friends, like people didn't particularly like me. And I read all of these books on how to pick up girls. It wasn't like a matter of like hooking up, although that would have been awesome, which it did happen. But it was like I just want to like be accepted. And so I read pretty much every book you could ever find about how to Pick up a girl.

45:38 And what you learn is that those like It's it starts like where you just learn the tactics of how to have a conversation. But then you realize that like the secret in all of this is to becoming a good person who's worthy of love and who's worthy of other people's attention. And that is like the true secret. And that is a good one. Okay, so I'm gonna point something out that I think is really interesting. You as an authenticity skeptic.

46:02 What you just told me was really authentic, right? Like you told me that you read books about picking up girls, which is something that like in in your head, you know I could judge. I could be like, Oh, this guy's a dirtbag. You're the kind of guy who like reads books on picking up girls. But by sharing that with me, by saying something that you know I could judge by being a little bit vulnerable. It actually brings us closer together. You're exactly right. Authenticity is not having a trick in my back pocket that I can use. Cause if it's not genuine, it's not real. And people are gonna feel that.

46:31 Authenticity is actually sharing with you who I really am with full knowledge that you could hold it against me. But trusting that you're not going to because we're gonna 'Cause we're gonna learn things about each other that make us feel closer. You're not like

46:46 I wouldn't say that you're The most prolific. author. Like you well in terms of books, like it seems like you find a topic and you like go super deep. So So I I have this basic

46:58 this basic desire with everything I write, which is To write something that I genuinely believe twenty years from now someone can pick it up. And just love it. And and actually I do this myself, like I buy old copies of magazines. I just bought In Cold Blood by Truman Capote, right? Which kind of created the true crime genre. Yeah, one of my favorites. I Yeah, it's wonderful. I found a copy of the original New Yorker magazine that it was printed in. And I bought it online from eBay.

47:24 And so as a result, if that's your goal is to write something really big. It does take time. In part it takes time because You don't know what the big idea is when you start the process. Speaking of old magazines, I collect old magazines. Here, here's a really

47:41 You have the first issue of George. That's like going for like Ten thousand dollars online right now. I've had this for three years, my friend. Really? I'm a Kennedy uh historian, um and I and I I owned a publishing company, so I had these I still get my Thrasher magazines by scaling these.

47:58 Oh, it's amazing. I read that you um cold call d I think I read this that you cold call nine hundred people to get a source for a book. Is that is that right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was actually so it was the Apple series. So the series is about

48:14 Like looking at the global economy through the lens of Apple. And Getting people inside Apple is to talk is really, really hard. It's a very secretive company. And so what I did is I was like, the only way I can do this is through like mass pitches. And so I'd go on LinkedIn and look for people who were former Apple employees, and I would email them and say, look, my name is Charles Dohig, I'm a reporter. This is what I'm working on. Can you please talk to me?

48:36 And the yield was really low. The yield was like three or four percent of people even bothering to respond. But All you need is two or three great sources to introduce you to other sources.

48:50 And so this has always been my reporting technique is If you want to write something great, if you want to create anything that's great. You just have to waste a lot of time. Because you don't know what's gonna pay off. You don't know which person you're gonna email and they're gonna say, Yeah, I have all these files, I can share them with you. And so

49:07 I think a big part of making important big things is Being okay. with spending an entire week and saying Nothing productive happened during this week. I tried again and again and again and none of it paid off.

49:20 Because that is the process. of finding something amazing. And So it's interesting to say that like a lot of your productive time feels unproductive. Well, and I think that that's a key. So so the idea that the book is called Smarter, Faster, Better, and the idea behind it is sort of what I mentioned before that

49:38 Throughout history, the Killer Productivity App has been thinking more deeply, particularly when thinking deeply is hardest. So tell me about your routine then. So let's say you had a deadline for an article or you had a deadline for a book. What is your daily routine? In order to think deeply.

49:55 So oftentimes oftentimes I won't have a deadline. Like I'll try and basically not have a deadline so I have all the time I need. But my my my process for thinking deeply is that. I do to do lists in a very specific way. My to do list at no time has more than three things on it, and hopefully it only has one. For the day. For the day. Right. So so I have a memory list. All the things I want to get done go on my memory list. And that's very long.

50:17 But the night before, every night, I look at the memory list and I choose what is the number one thing on my to do list for the next day. And I'll write that down. And this is a actually a routine. the cognitive routine that forces me to think about priorities, right? And

50:33 What I'll what I'll do is periodically during the day, I force myself to take a break. And To just Take a step back. And ask myself like

50:42 The way I spent the last hour Is it getting me closer to that one thing on my to-do list? Or is it actually me distracting myself? So you only do one like you would consider a successful day just doing one thing? Yeah, I mean it

50:56 It's gonna be a big thing. Right? Like Like m my my to do list, for instance, for tomorrow,'cause it's Saturday, but I'm gonna be I'm gonna I I have a to do list for tomorrow. My to do list for tomorrow is to come up with the Outline of my next book.

51:10 Now, I'm not gonna be able to do that in a day. Right. And that's a huge task. But I intend to sit down at nine o'clock in the morning with a pad of paper. And I'm just gonna start outlining and those outlines are gonna be terrible.

51:22 And then I'm gonna get up at 10 thirty or eleven and go get a snack and I'm gonna ask myself. Am I writing stuff down just to write stuff down? Or is this actually getting me closer and closer and closer to understanding what the outline is? There is so much in life that can distract us from what's important. And the people who are most successful are the ones

51:39 who empower themselves to be masters their time and their attention. I think you if I had a guess, you read a lot and you've written like three or four different books on like drastically different topics. Yeah. And so you're like an onion. You got layers of like interesting knowledge. What have you read in the last year, whether it's a book or an article or a podcast or a YouTube video? That you suggest that I consume.

52:00 So okay, so there's a couple of them. Um There's this book named Void Star. It's actually a novel. And it w it came out like seven or eight years ago. And it's written by a computer scientist. It's about AI. And first of all, it's just a great novel. It's like it's just fun to read, particularly because we're living through this age of AI AI. He is the first writer I've encountered who tries to actually get inside an AI's head.

52:22 Right, and sort of say like If if people actually were interacting with AI, what would that look like? Cause an AI isn't gonna be like a human. It's gonna be some something significantly different. So I found that book to be really, really profound. And then in addition, let me think what else. So David Epstein, as I mentioned, he has a new book coming out called Inside the Box. Which is about how constraints

52:43 Actually make us better. That like when we have constraints around us, when we have fewer resources than we need, when we create artificial limits for ourselves, it actually pushes us to be more creative, to be more productive. And I think that's been really, really important because We live in an age of

53:01 Surplus and excess. Right. If you're starting an AI company, the first thing you do is you raise billions and billions of dollars. But what David's saying is actually Avail yourself of those surplus of resources if you can get them.

53:15 But when you're thinking about how to make decisions Give yourself constraints because it's the constraints. that show you the right path forward. T. You're really fascinating to talk to. Did you um you make me want to become an author. Um you should be an author. You're fascinating to talk to too.

53:36 I don't know if I've got the grip for it. It seems really hard. Did you for any of the your best works, so like the power of habit as well as some of your articles. Did you at any point were you like Something's here. Something's here. This is gonna hit. Yeah. So I think what happens is very similarly, uh I'll say that oftentimes the chapters that get the most attention are the chapters where I was like, Oh, that wasn't my best chapter. Like I I could have I should have done better. And I cannot reread my stuff. If I reread my stuff, it's like oh, this is so painful. Like it's It's so bad. There's so I could have done so much better.

54:07 But I will say that There is usually a point where I'm like You know I would actually read this. Like there's something going on in this. That if I encountered it in the wild

54:18 I would read it. And that doesn't mean it's poetic. That doesn't mean it's perfect. But there's just something there. that I find personally captivating. The trust I'm having, the bet I'm making, is that if I find it captivating There's gonna be at least some other people like me who also find it captivating. So I wrote this um this article for the New Yorker about a guy named Shamath Pal Haftia.

54:38 Yeah, the spac thing. Yeah. I it was I like that stuff. Yeah, like I it was about Chamath and about and about um spacks. And it was kind of like Yeah, Chamath is kind of like a I con artists that's not fair, but

54:51 Chemoth is an operator, right? He's a guy who like sells a dream pretty actively. And so I wrote an article about him selling the dream and why actually sometimes in in economic cycles Like the salesman, the The the the bullshartist is actually the most important figure because he helps everyone else believe in what the economy can be. And it was an article, it didn't do that well. Like not that many people read it.

55:15 But I I loved it because I would have read the hell out of that thing. If I had come across that article in the magazine, I would have just read it like two or three times. That's ultimately what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to write something that like So amuses and delights me. That

55:30 I I would read it and so hopefully other people will too. What um Yeah, man. I I'm leaving this conversation v invigorated. What saying Me too.

55:41 What age did you become successful financially? Ooh, actually extra power of habit. So I would Let's see, so I was probably Late thirties? Were you like broke?

55:54 No, I wasn't broke. I wasn't broke. I was right working in the New York Times, but one of the reasons I wrote The Power of Habit was because I was really happy being a reporter. And my wife was pregnant with our first kid. And I I and we were living in New York and I was like I don't know that we can afford to live in New York with kids on my salary, right? I'm a reporter. I don't earn that much money. The only way that I can make this work is to go write books. Like I I need a secondary line of income. to be able to continue living in New York, to continue our the lifestyle that we have.

56:22 And so and it and and I will say I'm curious if this is true of you as well. Like once I started making money, the the scarcity mindset was with me for a long time and actually is still kinda it's still there. It's still there. The If you grow up With scarcity. Uh don't go away. It's traumatic.

56:39 And and it also teaches you that like Money does not solve your problems. I think it I think it removes so many problems. It removes so many problems. And like I've talked about this on the podcast and this is a very douchey thing to say, but I say it all the time. The people who say it doesn't make you happier, I think are doing it wrong. It definitely makes you happier because it rose removes so much uncertainty. But We have quite similar tendencies, I've noticed this about you, is that you're quite paranoid.

57:04 Uh like we've agreed that you're one of the best selling authors of all time. And yet you say you're a horrible author. And like there's this like I think there's this commonality, not with all successful people. I know a lot of successful people that were like, I felt like I was great and I knew I was gonna be great and and I was confident the whole time. But then there's whole other subset of people, which I think I fall into and it sounds like you fall into, which is I'm shit. I have to prove myself. I suck. I suck so much. I have to do this. It's all gonna go away. And frankly, it's exhausting, but I do find it very useful.

57:32 I totally agree. And I I think of it as a cultivated anxiety. And I think you're right. I think it's actually a blend of those. Cause if you asked me objectively. Am I a good writer? I'd I'd say, look, I've been writing for twenty years, man. Like I spent all my time thinking about how to how to write in ways that make people desperate to finish the chapter they're writing. So like um objectively, I am a good writer.

57:53 But it's also this cultivated anxiety of like, Well, my previous books were okay. But I want to try something new for my next book, and that could fall on its face. I need to work really hard to make sure it doesn't. I think both of us probably do that, right? Like Success is a combination of Feeding the insecurities that push you to be better.

58:12 And then also taking comfort in the securities that you You can be better. You know what you're doing if you push yourself hard enough. The thing that I love about capitalism and business, and it's like I'm not even into business that much. I just think that capitalism, there there's some of the more practical ways to kind of bend the earth to your will. And so like w what I loved about my journey of going from fat to skinny is like check this out. I manipulated myself. Like isn't that awesome? I I changed My tiny world, not just being my body.

58:41 I set a goal and I Did it. Yeah, and I I that's what I like about entrepreneurship is um even if it's just a small business, it doesn't matter if it's what it is. It's just a really cool it's a very practical way to to to kick your dent into the world and say this is my world that I've created, even if it's just my my bedroom. Absolutely. And that is that mastery, right? Mastery is envisioning something in the world and then making it real. And it is so satisfying.

59:05 Well thanks for doing this. I uh thank you. Thanks for having me on. This is super fun. I hope you realize how much of an impact you've had on me. Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. And I love the show. I like I I love listening to the show. And by the way. When you come out to California, let me know. We'll we'll go I I do you surf? Poorly. Okay.

59:22 I surf poorly every single day. So we we we'll go surfing together in Santa Cruz. It'll be fun. Alright, let's do it. Alright, that's it, that's the pod. I feel like I can rule the world a no way be what I want to I'm put my all in it like my day's off On the roadless travel never looking back

59:41 Hey, let's take a quick break to tell you about our sponsor. It is a podcast that we want you to check out. It's called D2C Pod. It's hosted by Ramon Berrios and Blaine Bolas. And this is a podcast about all things direct to consumer, D to C. It's e commerce stores, it's how you optimize your brand. And they're talking with founders, marketers, and the platform creators. About all kinds of things that you need to know for D to C, you know, website conversion, paid ads, Facebook ads, consumer trends, email marketing. If you want to know the stories behind your favorite brands, this podcast is for you. So check it out. Listen to D2C Pod, wherever you get your podcast.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.