Alex Smith, Shane Battier, & Ravi Gupta - What Makes A Glue Guy? - [Invest Like the Best, EP.387]

0:00 I know firsthand how complex the tech stack is for asset management firms. And seemingly every new tool and data source makes the problem even worse, adding more complexity, more headcount, and more risk. Ridge line offers a better way forward, one unified platform that automates away the complexity across portfolio accounting. Reconciliation, reporting, trading, compliance, and more, all at scale. Ridge line is revolutionizing investment management, helping ambitious firms scale faster.

0:25 Operate smarter and stay ahead of the curve. See what Ridgeline can unlock for your firm. Schedule a demo at ridgeline.ai. Hello and welcome everyone. I'm Patrick O'Shaughnessy and this is Invest Like the Best. This show is an open ended exploration of markets, ideas, stories, and strategies that will help you better invest both your time and your money. Invest Like the Best is part of the Colossus family of podcasts, and you can access all our podcasts, including edited transcripts, show notes, and other resources to keep learning at joincolosis.com.

1:00 Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Positive Sun. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of positive some. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions. Clients of Positive Sum may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. To learn more, visit psum.vc.

1:29 This week's episode is special because it marks the launch of our first new show on Colossus in a long time. It's called Blue Guys. My guests this week are the hosts of the new show, Shane Battier, Alex Smith, and Ravi Gupta. Shane, Ruby, and Alex's stories are each remarkable. Each has been at the very top of their profession.

1:47 Shane as an N C double A and NBA champion. Alex is the first pick in the NFL draft, pro bowler and sixteen year NFL veteran. Rove as a leader at KKR and then as a critical leader turning around and building Instacart. And now as a partner at Sequoia. But those parts of their stories pale in comparison to the stories that you'll hear on Glue Guys.

2:06 And I suspect their next chapters will be even more interesting than their past chapters. We'll get to see in real time. For me, with the benefit of listening to more than ten episodes already. Glue Geist is already serving as an unfolding manual for how to be a professional, a teammate, a leader, and even a friend and family member. In this episode of Invest Like the Best, we explore the general concept of glue guys, which we define as the people who are obsessed with helping teams win, whether they're the leader or the newest member of the team. I'm reminded of the great Bill Russell quote My ego demands for myself the success of my team.

2:38 Before you listen, go subscribe to the new show and check out the first three episodes with the link in our show notes. Expect incredible conversations in the months to come, both between the three hosts and with guests that I'm hesitant to even mention because they will be so good and so unique. At Colossus, we are proud to partner with three such incredibly high quality people, and we hope you enjoy this conversation and their new show. Well, gentlemen, this is an incredibly fun opportunity to do this live and in person at Spotify, uh, which is the first time for all of us. I've actually never done this in video, which is crazy. So it's just so fun to have you guys as an excuse to do this together. And I wanted to start our conversation with some question thematically related.

3:19 to the concept of glue guys, which we're gonna talk about and explain, but I don't that would be the obvious boring place to start. So The framework that I was thinking through on the drive in this morning was the relationship and difference between raw individual talent. And teamwork. And the way that those two things Matter.

3:38 In your experience And how you thought about your teams or your business. And I want you just open by each riffing on that a little bit because Obviously there's incredible individual talent all over the place, you three included.

3:52 But ultimately the greatest things happen typically with big teams. Or small teams, but teams nonetheless. And it's it seems like a tricky interrelationship. And I would just love to hear you as three perfect people to talk about this riff on the relationship between talent and teamwork. Talent and teamwork. Okay. So I'm gonna stick to it from a business perspective, I guess.

4:11 The first thought Patrick when I go to is like in investing You know, venture firms are weird teams. Right, like because What you kinda have is everyone does have to be pretty talented on their own, right? Otherwise, like they're nobody's gonna want to share in it together.

4:26 But I guess like the tension or the the thought that comes to mind on talent versus teamwork is You actually can't do it all by yourself. Because you can't cover everything. Right? By nature.

4:39 And It's too hard to to choose it on your own. So what do I mean by that? Like If you s something. You kinda need somebody to like

4:49 Spar with? You know, as you're talking about it. Like even you and me when we talk about something, even if we're not technically on a team together, right? It sharpens my thinking if we can talk about it. And I think it's just actually too hard of a game. To just like figure it out on your own.

5:05 Right. So that's one part I think is just like the sparring partner aspect of a team. But I think the bigger thing that actually comes to mind for me is just like it's a lot more fun And that feels more sustainable. If you're doing something with other people. And maybe that's specific to my personality, but I don't think it is. I think that by nature

5:23 It's more sustainable to do something hard. And most things worth doing are hard. If you're doing it alongside other people. And so I think it might allow you to have a little bit more longevity to the talent.

5:35 If you're doing it alongside A team you respect. And makes you better. Both because it refines your talent, like in the sparring partner concept, but also because It's like more fun to practice.

5:48 It's more fun to like Do the things that make you good. Rather than just relying on like The original God given talent. That duration seems like a good excuse. Yeah. How's it different in sports? Talent's not that rare.

6:02 In sports. Like Especially the higher you get. Like talent's everywhere. Like I just don't think it's that big of a rarity as people think it is. Especially on the professional level. Everybody is good.

6:14 Everybody's good. I don't know if it's like an NBA Shame but like There are guys in the NFL that I've like you've never heard of. You would turn on the film Right, like

6:24 That week you're prepping, you you turn on the film. You know their roster, like Hey, I'm looking at these corners of these defensive ends that I've never heard of. I've never heard of. I don't even know the college they went to. And then you watch the film and you're like Holy shit. This guy, this guy's a m monster. Like the talent is everywhere. And I've played with quarterbacks that like again

6:47 They they undrafted. You know, again went to some deep two school and like this guy came in, I'm like, This this guy can swing it. Like this guy's a good player. Like the difference between me and him And I was the number one pick in the draft is so small. Right and

7:02 I think what is way more rare Are great teams. Right, and and I think by nature of the great teams are are really only formed to do things that you can't do yourself. Right. Challenges and obstacles that you can't achieve by yourself.

7:16 require great teams because you can go farther and do things Together that you just never thought imaginable. And I am like living walking proof of that. Right. Especially the quarterback position.

7:28 I mean, you're just given way too much credit for things. Uh that that you had nothing to do with the And are lifted up by so many people around you. And then to even take it beyond sports, like Certainly. What a lot of people know me for like my my injury and coming back like

7:45 As much as I would love to say, like, man, this was just personal tri triumph in like overcoming this, that's that'd be a joke. To be an absolute joke. Like Uh phenomenal teams. That helped me go do that. Like again, and I think that's at probably at the cruise even

8:02 Like what we're talking about'cause it's it is hard to do. Great teams are Crazy rare. It is a special thing. And what

8:11 How do you create it? What makes it up and I think that it It's a thousand things. It's a thousand ingredients. Um And that's what makes it fascinating.

8:21 Right. And I think that's what's so cool about the correlation between business and sports is that so many of them are transferable. It's the s it's no different and and and sports sometimes is just higher stakes. Yeah. But It it's I I don't think it's any different in in business and investing.

8:40 Yeah. Well My experience is very different. I just want to be loved. Everything I learned about being a great teammate I was forced to learn when I was.

8:53 Seven six year old kindergartner. Right. And it was through my Which at the time the toughest thing I've ever been through in my life, just being different. Look, I grew up

9:03 In a small town outside Detroit, Michigan, Birmingham, Michigan. I was the only kid in town that had a black dad and white mom. Okay. On Picture Day, I was the only kid to get a pick. I'm pitcher day. All right. I'm on New King Day. I was expecting to know everything about black culture from the dawn of dawn of civilization. Right. And here I am just trying to learn and fit in, like be like everybody else. All right, I was a foot taller than everybody else.

9:25 All right. I was that kid who had to carry a birth certificate with him to the literally game'cause no parent thought I was eight years old. And I was poor. We had nothing. We had enough growing up, but we we had nothing extra. You know, I remember the the roof leaked and I was in charge of putting the pots underneath the the the leaks in the roof. All right. All my genes had uh iron on patches. All right. And so I was never embarrassed about it because it was it was just what it was. So like my point is.

9:51 I was always different. Always. I was the mix I I tell people I was mixed tall and poor. Okay. Now you're told to arc enhancing. Mary. And

10:07 What I realize in kindergarten The most important time for me was a recess. And it was at the kickball field, the baseball field, in the sand line, and the in the football field. And I realized that when I help my friends win. I wasn't the black kid, I wasn't the poor kid, I wasn't the tall kid, I was just a kid. And so I became obsessed.

10:28 Not really with what. I did, but what we did, did we win and did I help my friends win? 'Cause that moment was pure. And as as young kids, you just want to fit in as humans. We just want to fit in. We're not trying to stick out, right? But especially as a kid. And so uh it it really shaped

10:45 My Idea of like what what is What's your role in a team is just to make people better around you. And make Give people.

10:55 Well who hundreds the best chance to win,'cause not nothing beats winning. Nothing. Right. I like I I I was addicted to winning from little little leag championships with all my buddies. Nothing better than that. Get an ice game with your friends. And so it's it's no different when you win an NBA championship. It's it's with your friends and and what can we do together to do great things. And so Be a glue guy when when when Ruby

11:16 uh brought us together. Um There are so many folks out there Who whether it's in a

11:23 business setting or or a Or sports setting who never experienced that that feeling. Yeah. So we're here to share that. And we don't think what we did is is magical by by any means, but we all played really, really important roles and some some pretty cool experiences. And we we felt those experiences and the people on those journeys shaped why we're here today. And so that's

11:46 Why I'm proud to be a glue guy and proud to to start this this journey with these guys. When I was thinking about the question, it's so easy, and the world in general goes this direction, which is it's just much easier to tell individual stories. It's much easier to talk about Jordan and his greatness. We're filming this in the middle of the Olympics, and there's lots of great individual talents where the stories are just so compelling. They're portable, they're easy to share and think about. And we love building people up. We like the Steve Jobs version of the of the Apple story. But but a point that Alex made, which I really want to spend maybe we spend literally the whole time on this. Is how rare An incredible team is

12:24 I think each of you has had the f good fortune of being on at least one, probably multiple incredible teams, individual units of people going after something together. I'd love to you to each like visualize The team that comes to mind most quickly. And then maybe share some of the attributes of what was going on in the team that you think were the ingredients that made it a great team because it's it's just more complicated. There's more degrees of freedom. It's harder to explain, but it really seems worthwhile trying to

12:51 suss out and explain as a group here. So what what are those things that come to mind In ways that you would describe The team that first came. And I'm really curious which team comes to mind. It's hard. You don't have a favorite child. You love them all differently in their own special kind of way. Okay, I'll bite. I'll bite. I'll bite. Um

13:20 Look, I I've I've won multiple championships across different plat you know, different teams and platforms. M my two thousand one Dude. Blue double basketball team. Um By the advanced metrics, one of the greatest teams in in modern history. Yeah.

13:37 Even Alex is a docator uh would agree with We're pretty good. And y you can't leave out LeBron, D Wade, and Chris Bosch, the mighty back to back championship. You've got an embarrassment of riches for this question. Yeah, no. But like thinking about the the threads, the common threads between those teams. Um and something I I talk a lot about with with anyone anyone who listen is is those teams are marked by high trust and high w what I call mission focus. Right. Uh the trust was instant. You were able to

14:07 Uh talk to each other. Look each other in the eye. And the feedback was instantaneous. 'Cause we trusted we all had each other's back. We had the best interest because we're here for one reason, and that was

14:19 To raise a banner. And that's where the mission focus comes in. And everyone is ro rowing in the same direction. And when you have an environment and From the coach. from the teams to the managers, assistant coaches, everybody associated with that run. Has

14:35 Ultimate trust. And ultimate focus on why we're here. Yeah. Amazing, amazing things happen. And y you don't Understand that until adversity hits.

14:46 And and that's the other common theme. Right. I've been on some great teams when diversity hits. They crumble. Because they lack

14:53 mission focus because they lack trust. And so you never know when you're gonna have to lean on those two things, but those are the two most important factors in any any successful uh Cohesive team. Maybe just to pick on the first example you said. What allowed that trust to exist at that Duke team. Like what was trust is great. I think everyone wants that and it's an amazing feeling, but how did you get it? Well Coach K obvious

15:19 Mm Mine the greatest basketball coach, greatest coach in in s in sports. And There are a lot of things that cause uncertainty in teams or cause mistrust. Uncertainty is one of them. When you have a strong leader that that removes uncertainty. And

15:34 Look, Coach K did a great job of defining roles, but also given us space to To take ownership of the team. And there was no doubt every day we walked into the locker room while we were there. Right.

15:46 And that's to be the best team possible to improve every single day. And if we do that Championships and winning is a byproduct of that. Right. We were almost freed. By expectations. Everyone say was it w was it a super high pressure no, it wasn't high pressure because it was very simple.

16:04 Daily goals of getting better. Playing together. Trusting each other. looking each other in the eye. It sounds super corny, but That was the expectation and and the the uncertainty was removed from why we were there.

16:18 We're free. Alex, what team came to mind for you? Thinking back to my college days like that that You know and I played for Urban.

16:27 Um Who was it? You know, I would I would almost call like a psychologist. As much as a coach. Um

16:36 And I think there's a uh there's certainly Selflessness is one of the first things that that comes to mind. And I think where you could put that with trust, right? Like the mission focus, like the the team's bigger than us, right? And everybody thinks that. Right. Everybody everybody's putting the team before themselves.

16:55 And I think that is critical. Uh For any great team. Right. And and and you want that. And I think at the core of everybody you want to be a part of something bigger.

17:05 than yourself, right? Like that's why you're there. That's why you're willing to sacrifice and do so much. And I and I think at the core of that Comes the motivation. From a good place. And I'm fast and I'm fascinated around motivation because I I grew up and I never I never imagined in my wildest dreams I'd played professional sports. I was like too realistic a kid.

17:26 Like I just don't heard the odds. It's not in the cards for me. I grew up a very normal kid. I wasn't like a crazy standout by any means growing up. And I had one

17:37 College scholarship offer. Right. And that was my dream. My dream growing up, like I love Saturdays. Like I loved college football. I loved again Getting your education, the idea of the student athlete running out on the field and like the student section going crazy and that relationship with the student section and we're all part of this this great big culture that we've been craving, right? And I and You're just a role in that and getting your education and obviously then moving, you know, forward with your life. And like

18:03 One school gave me that opportunity. And There certainly when I got there was this You know, I had it along with probably everybody else there that like W were we good enough, right? Like was I deserving of this? Was I good enough? And certainly

18:19 We all embodied that and this comes back to Urban, like We all had an edge. We the entire team had an edge had something to prove. And so I took the field. With a fearlessness. Every single game like

18:34 Like Yeah. I like fuck you. Like I you know excuse my language, like I'm I'm out here to do something. Right, like and I don't care. I wasn't worried about making a mistake. No one wor no one was expecting anything anyway.

18:47 Right. And and I think we played on with an edge. Uh as a team and we're out to do something. We were a little school in the Mountain West. the at the time they had this B C S thing and we wanted to be the first school they they didn't allow us in the club. You know, and we wanted to break the wall down.

19:03 And that was the goal, and everybody was rowing in the same direction. And you woke up with a singular focus every day that that's what we wanted to go do and it was important to all of us. And then to go achieve it. Obviously. you know, it's like the best feeling at sports, right? To be accountable. Like to to quickly on that. It was

19:20 You know, it was only months later that I got drafted. with the number one overall pick. And everything changed for me. Everything changed, right? And like I that courage that I took the field with, that fearlessness that our entire team embodied, like

19:37 I didn't have that anymore. And in fact I was on the other side of it. Like I was the expectations were so great. I had so much self doubt. Right, that like I was in over my head.

19:49 That And I was No. Scared to death. Like I thought I had to be perfect. And I was scared to death to make a mistake. And I walked out onto the field. I did and I did everything, not just on the field, like I did everything.

20:00 tiptoed around on eggshells. And it was it I mean it was it was so burdensome. Like the weight that I walked around in and It never left. Can you zoom in on that a little bit because

20:13 I suspect almost nobody has experienced the sort of external pressure that you're that you had and you're talking about like the world, you know, watching and aware of of your performance. But I also suspect that basically everyone listening has had some period of extraordinary self doubt. And It's hard to get through.

20:31 Zoom in on like the emotions and like what that was literally like. Like did you feel that in the shower? Did you feel that it lying in bed? Did you have trouble sleeping? Like how did it manifest? All the time. Yeah. Line in bed at night. Uh having dinner with my friends or girlfriend at the time who became my wife. Um certainly At the facility. And it mounted towards Sunday.

20:51 I mean to the point I couldn't eat before games, you're throwing up. Uh You know, you're sick, like You just all consuming.

21:00 And it's all negative. Right. Uh every You know, I think we've all had that voice in our head. Uh

21:07 And At that point I had Fifteen of'em. Right. And and it just it it it drowned out everything else. Um

21:17 And was terrified. Of the word bust? And I think the biggest thing looking back at that time is I tried to pretend like it wasn't happening. And that was the biggest problem.

21:30 I I like I'm a tough football player. And I'm I'm not talking to anybody about this. And I'm just gonna bury it. And pretend like it's not happening.

21:39 And hopefully I get through this thing. And I think in hindsight that was like the worst thing I could have done. Right. Um, the best thing I could have done was like

21:49 Listen, this is freaking Ridiculously hard what you're getting asked to do. Right, like this is absurd. Absurdly hard. Right. And also like in that, like confronting that.

22:00 I think also confronting the fact that And I didn't No this at the time, but like listen. 'Cause there were guys in the locker room, older guys that like I I absolutely They might as well like I idolized, right?

22:12 And I definitely didn't think that they had self doubt. Right. Like they well, they don't they aren't feeling they aren't dealing with the same things I'm dealing with. Um, which is completely wrong in hindsight. Like I You know, played long enough.

22:23 A bunch of gold jacket. members. One just went in, Patrick Willis like Everybody. Like these guys, everybody deals with self doubt. It is the most human of emotions. And so I just had no idea in hindsight again, and just kinda like pretended like it wasn't there.

22:39 And It just festered and got worse and grew and got worse. Um To the point. Yeah, where like I I think I eventually had to hit

22:49 Rock bottom. You know? Um When was that? When it was Rock Bottom.

22:54 Oh man. Ha. Uh you know So I'd spent

23:01 You know, several years ignoring this. And Uh Just unhappy. N I don't

23:09 You know, football is a game I love, and all of a sudden like I'm just I I don't wanna go to work. Uh You're getting ready to run out of a tunnel to go play a game and like I'm though I don't want to be there. Like it Are you kidding me? Like if you'd have told me that.

23:21 You know, a year earlier, like Let's go. Um And Gosh, I think this was like five or six years in my career. At a home game and candlestick.

23:31 Uh We're playing the Philadelphia Eagles. I think it's on a Sunday night, so prime time game. You know, the whole country watching on NBC. And we're playing the Eagles fittingly Andy Reid on the other sideline. And

23:42 Uh You know, they were good and we were not. Um We were talented, but not very good. And

23:51 I I had some turnovers in the second half. We're we're losing. And uh Mike Singletary. confronts me on the sideline. And like our defense had given up I don't know how many points at that like We were losing, it wasn't my fault. I did I had some bonehead plays, but like it it certainly wasn't my my my doing.

24:09 And he gets in a confrontation with me. On the sideline. An outer body experience to be on national T V and here's this guy that like Mike Singletary and me played linebacker, playing quarterback And I felt like he had a

24:24 Irrational expectations of what it took to play quarterback. Right. Um And how dependent you are on So many other things.

24:32 Right to have a chance of success. And so he's In my face. On the sidelines. Again on national T V

24:40 And Uh Incredibly uncom I mean, I something I wasn't prepared for as a young man. And in the same instant You know, I'd had this bonehead fumble.

24:52 Well I'm trying to make this play. And Shortly thereafter, the whole stadium is chanting the backup quarterback's name. Who is David Carr? So I'm at my home stadium, which by the way

25:03 That entire time five years like I looked forward to road games. 'Cause it like it did ease the pressure slightly. Right, like playing in front of which is crazy. Right,'cause

25:13 Your home field advantage is a very real thing, like as a quarterback, like The rest of my career was flipped, right? Like as it should be. Um And so you have eighty thousand people chanting David Carr. Um I've got this head coach.

25:27 In my face. I can feel the cameras. On me. And You know, just like

25:35 I think finally then like realizing like this isn't working. What I've been doing is this is not working. I've been trying so hard to like please these very people. Like I want nothing more than to validate my draft status, right? Like I was drafted to like turn this franchise around.

25:52 And I want so badly to do that for for everybody. Um And Like This whole thing is flipped upside down now. And like look like here I am in this moment.

26:03 And so that certainly was probably rock bottom. Luckily It coincided with You know. A coach that really changed my career shortly thereafter. We even know it wasn't much couple months later we hired Jim Harpa. You know, and again

26:15 It it's the same motivators there, like to flip it the other way. That he helped me. And certainly some of my teammates get back to a point of like Right, fearlessness. uh selflessness.

26:26 Um And A healthy perspective and motivation towards like a A challenge. Did you just decide like how did like you have to walk us? No, I didn't no I didn't decide. Certainly that was the rock bottom of like I I think that was recognition of

26:42 I'm not doing this anymore. Like this same like I'm not ignoring what's going on. Um My own again, consumed with my own self doubt. Like I'm not gonna just keep blocking this out, pretending like it's not happening. Like that was the moment I think where it was like very real.

26:57 And uh Jim Jim played quarterback for fifteen years. He played for the San Diego Chargers. I grew up in San Diego. I remember watching him play as a kid. He had a ton of success at Stanford. Here he comes Um

27:10 Yeah, over to the Niners with us. And so he Very quickly I he could relate. Like I I he played quarterback. And He's certainly

27:19 Everything he the way he approached the game His enthusiasm towards the game, his gratefulness towards the game. Uh was infectious. And I've told this guy's like the He literally said the same s the same

27:33 Words before we left the locker room, right before the game. Right. So you're you're fully dressed. You've gone through all your warm ups, you're getting ready to run out onto the field. On Sunday. My stress and anxiety was always at its highest in that moment. Right.

27:47 Like my like my self doubt. was at it maxed out. And Jim Harbaugh's last words to us, always. Every single week.

27:54 We're the same. And he would say play as hard as you can. As fast as you can. А з лом і кан. And don't worry.

28:03 Right like the last two words he said were don't worry. Like he like I had just spent Six years worrying. That's all I did was worry. I worried. I was just Constant work.

28:13 And They really just resonated with me. And I think combined with Like listen. I would be remiss to say like certainly like the entire coaching staff, that same team

28:24 The year prior when I was getting You know. Face to face. What you know, Mike Singletary and getting you know, chanting the back up's name. I I I think we won five or six five games.

28:34 I mean the very near we won thirteen and went the AFC championship game. The year after that we won another thirteen and went to the Super Bowl. Like We had better coaching staff, they were smarter, they put together better plans, like we were coached better. Like I don't want to like pretend like that wasn't a part of this. Other big chunk that's not

28:51 It's not technical. And and that so much of these harbisms. Um that I think great leaders and founders have. Um and coaches. And

29:02 Uh that was a big part of it. uh for me and it had a huge effect on me. In that moment. Incredible. Have you ever reached a rock bottom?

29:13 Professionally. Yeah, I mean not like that. I mean there's never been people chanting the backup's name. The rock bottom For me Uh there's probably two or three times it's happened, but I'll give you one. The instacart moment of just like

29:30 Oh God. This is broken, we're losing sixteen dollars on every order, we're burning twelve million dollars a month. Like literally I get the financials and I call the controller thinking that he made a mistake and I'm kind of annoyed. Hey man, can you send me the accurate financials? And he's like, What's wrong? And like this says we're burning twelve million dollars a month. We're gonna go out of business soon. He's like, no no those are right. Uh like Yeah, like that moment was terrible. And like you feel like you're gonna be a failure. You feel like you've let your family down. Like I I took a ninety percent pay cut to go from KKR to Instacart.

29:59 So like all of a sudden I'm like, What am I gonna tell Ovni when I go home that like I did this out of like just pure selfish and I had a good job, right? And then I mean you know It's so funny'cause like the story you want to tell is like and then I just buckled down and I went to work. Like the first thing I thought about doing was go back. You know, like maybe I can quit. You know, and then like and like I didn't even just think about it. Like I'm like, I don't know, my family's from India. Like we we like want to make sure we're gonna be okay. So like I didn't even just think about it. I kind of like softly explored whether there was like some path back. And like I didn't go all the way down the path, but like it wasn't that it was just an idle thought.

30:34 You know? And then Of course, like you know we were able to fix it and whatever, but it comes back to your point on like what makes a good team. Like, dude like For me.

30:44 I think Shared purpose is Like th I I've been on I've been very blessed to be on great teams. Look, but the one that comes to mind, like these guys were a little Then they were they hedged a little bit on what team. My my favorite team I've ever been looking to be a part of was the Instacart team. Okay. Like that is my favorite child as it relates to the team. If I had an IPO, that'd be my favorite team too. Yeah. I'm just saying, though. I'm just saying working for a long time. You know? Okay. But like

31:13 So sh shared purpose. Big deal and you guys said that's like you're there for some reason that's bigger than you. But like just to put a finer point on, like it matters because all of a sudden every debate. Actually has an answer, which is like, well, what is better for the shared purpose? Rather than like anybody else's agenda. Like that's a big deal, I think. The second thing is it has to be really hard. It has to be hard for you to like care about it.

31:35 You know, like the hard is a feature. Because all of a sudden like the it's so much sweeter when you get through it, but it's also that like you have to give all of yourself. And it does require all of you to be good. And so like an InstaCart, like all of us had to be good. Like we were going up against like a behemoth, right? And everybody thought we sucked and like you need that extra motivation and all that. So like I think like It has to be hard. And then for me, this is something I care about. It doesn't have to be for everybody.

32:03 But like you gotta have Some joy in it. At least for me, for me to have it be my favorite thing, like You know, uh this is a silly example, but like the current CEO, co CEO of KKR is a guy named Scott Nuttle. And KKR is an amazing place, but obviously most of you will talk about Henry and George there. But the current co CEO, Scott Nuttle.

32:20 And when I was, you know, just getting out of school, like two years in I went and worked at KKR. Whenever Scott would talk on stage. Any time. He's looked like he's having a good time. And that like really sat with me.

32:31 'Cause like I like think a lot about where I'm spending my time and where why am I gone from my family and all these things. And Scott Always look like he was enjoying himself. And that always sat with me as like well. Man, this could be fun. We can like get important things done, but it doesn't have to be that we like don't like each other or enjoy it. And like that is a part of who I am. Like I like laughing, I like doing that. And I certainly if I'm gonna spend a lot of time somewhere, I need it to be fun.

32:54 So one thing that was cool about Instacart for me was I got to put my stamp on the culture. Right. It wasn't just a culture that I had to like join in. And one of my favorite parts was I felt like we had joy in the culture. And that's what when I hear Alex talk about his moments like It's just like football stops being fun.

33:11 Well it's like Man, that's like really sad. Like i you're never gonna be great. If there's not like some Joy to it.

33:18 I'd love to zoom in on the on the hard part,'cause that was kind of distinctive from the other two answers. I was with Karim, our friend Karim yesterday from Thrive, and he has this beautiful idea, which is that small ideas attract a lot of competition. And'cause they're easier to do. And so people, you know, the kind of default like something that's simple and easy. Whereas like SpaceX or something, uh not a lot of SpaceX competitors because it's insanely impossibly hard.

33:43 And I'd love to hear examples that come to mind from each of you or from anyone On What that means in practice. So you know, working with Coach K or on whatever team we're talking about. Like zoom in on the hard. Like what

33:55 help us understand what hard feels like or looks like in practice or in a moment I think about the hardest time in my Four years a duke. Was my last game at home against University of Maryland.

34:10 It's my senior night, we lose. Not only that. Uh All ACC center, future pro, future fifteen year pro, and center Carlos Boozer breaks his foot. Okay.

34:22 So we lose to our rival. We lose our our center, starting center. Uh, for what it seems like the rest of the year. Okay, we have one l one game left. Against North Carolina.

34:32 Our vaughned rival. And at that moment You know, I came back, I could have gone to the NBA early. I came back for a championship run. And that moment it was the first time I ever had pity for myself. And of course all the haters came out and the media and the fans, Duke's dead, no boozer, no chance. There's they can't be Carolina. I think Alex has a tweet on that from like two thousand. And so

34:57 We actually went to practice the next day. And we're all moping around and Coach K boots us out of practice. Boot kicks us out. He says, Get out of my gym, come back when you're ready to practice. All right, so we go in the locker room. And I'm throwing chairs. And I said, guys, you don't understand. Like you, you're all you guys are all super young. You have more chances. This is it for me. Conceivably, we could get blown up by Carolina, we could go to ACC tournament, lose that game, and then lose in the first round, but to a 16th seed, and my career is over and I have nothing to show for it.

35:28 Now I'm emotional and crying, I'm pretty sore guy, but I'm crying. And I said, We're we you know, we're better than this. We know this is not who we are. And so we composed ourselves and went back out to the c to the court and said, Hey coach We're to practice. And Coach K looked us

35:43 In the eye. And said I'm gonna ask every one of you. A question. And I want you to answer.

35:50 From your heart. And he asked us. Do you trust me? And do you trust in my plan? And if you do, we will win a national championship.

35:59 Ha ha ha. Laughable. We just lost Boozer. You know, it's not looking good for the home team here. Coach K went down the line, looked us in the guy and said, Do you believe in me? Do you believe in my plan? Do you believe will be national champions. And we all said yes. And after that

36:15 He unleashed this brand new plan. We played s we played super small. Uh we inserted Reggie Love, who was more famously Obama's body man, as a six five center who guarded Brendan Haywood, who was giving away eight inches and two hundred pounds to him the next game. And we were gonna shoot fifty three pointers and overwhelm them with speed and three point shooting. Okay. And it was a brilliant plan that no one saw coming. And

36:43 To coach K's point, he said, Look We are built for this moment. w we're not gonna win the national championship because we change something right now. We're gonna win the national championship because our habits are pure. And we're preparing for this single hard moment.

37:00 And nobody flinched. Right. And that's the difference. Again, it's like the analogy of pounding the rock. You just don't know when that rock is gonna break. You don't know what is gonna be the differentiator. when you face that adversity and and so it was The old next man up? Reggie Love gets inserted into the lineup.

37:20 We go to Carolina, we beat them by twelve. All right, we go to the A C C championship. Win the A C championship. Go to the N SAA tournament. Carlos Boozer miraculously comes back from her broken foot and

37:32 And we Win the national championship. And our average margin of victory was twelve points. We beat every team we played by double digits. To your point, Ruby, like yes. It it's more meaningful when it's hard. Yes. Right. I and when when there's risk. When there's risk involved, and you're in your for us for the athletes, you know, I was at risk of of losing face. Yeah and being embarrassed that I lost my last three games to some chumps.

37:59 Right. And here I am this guy, but I I I couldn't get it done. Um, but it again, it wasn't about me. It was about our journey it was about our team and what w did we need to do to adapt to change to the adity to to get to get to our ultimate goal, which we did. And now, you know, look

38:14 The winners write the history books. So it's a great story now. It wasn't very fun we were going through it, but uh It's something that uh uh, you know. Coach K is uh is famous for and I'm I'm a better Person, man, father, husband. Be because I went through that experience.

38:32 Isn't it always like that, though? Yeah. Like in hindsight. When you're in the middle of it. And I like this is like the I always find it funny.

38:41 I love like the office space thing, right? Like when the guy's talking about How do you know what you're supposed to do in life? And it's like, Well, the question is the counselor question is like Well if you had a million dollars, then what would you do? And the guy's like nothing. You know? I think there's this false sense that like well do what you love.

39:02 Like that idea of love and that you it should all just be like super enjoyable. I don't I totally like I Completely agree, Rebby. Like it has to be hard. The pre like that has to be inherent in it. Um, you know, it that there has to be something

39:18 At risk. uh to go try to take that on and the potential to fail. I think if you're s if you're crazy enough, there is joy and the misery. Yeah. I mean you have s a patch on your backpack that says embrace the suck. What? Teammate. Taught

39:32 Each of you the most about being a good teammate. A couple of things come to mind for me there. I very distinctly remember when I got again getting drafted And there was this big screen uh I You know, I played in the shotgun in college and spread offense and

39:47 You know, there's this big stigma that I played in A gimmicky college offense and I couldn't play in a quote unquote pro style offense. And so like I had to be able to play from under center and, you know, be a pocket passer. And be all these things and and so this was something that I had to prove to everybody that I could do. And so I get drafted and again I'm running this West Coast offense, quote unquote, in my rookie year. Then my first couple of years like I'll never forget

40:11 getting ready to go play in the NFL and I had no idea what I was doing, right? Like And and sitting and watching film because quarterbacks watch film and they you know, they were prepare for the game and they spend hours and I like I do that. Like I'm you know, like That's I can do that. And like so I would just

40:31 I remember like Wednesday nights and Thursday nights like I would just be in the film room till like Nine, ten at night watching, and I had no idea what I was doing. I'm just wasting time. Right, like and I was by myself.

40:44 Okay. at the time had uh combined one start and like were at home at four o'clock. And like I remember like just being there watching film on myself and just having no idea what I was doing and it not helping. Right, and I'd still go out there and just like suck. And so

41:04 And I felt very alone. Okay. Very alone. In that. And uh So that I

41:12 You asked about teammates and I think there there's definitely a teammate that had the most profound impact on my career. And this was in hindsight. Uh His name's Blake Costanzo.

41:22 I I told these guys this story, like He was a Third string linebacker. He uh again, I don't know what college he went to.

41:31 If you looked at him, if you ran into him on the street, you you would have no idea he played professional football. Like he didn't look the part at all. And he was on every special teams, right? Like he was on kick off return, kick off, punt, punt, return. And every team has these guys. There's like five of them that are on all these core special teams. You guys they're all backups, they're not starters on offensive defense or defense. They don't get any like limelight. Nobody knows their names. And Blake Man. Like loved what he did.

41:58 Like loved running down on kickoff. And it's this just Crazy play, right? Like they outlawed it for a while. And uh and he loved it. And like just came to practice every day with like an energy. And and like a joy.

42:14 And uh Again before games, right? Like I told you guys like that's when I was at my worst, like sitting on my stool just like You know, in my own head. Worrying. Blake

42:24 There before games. Again, as we creep towards kickoff. It just would like be the energy level would just go up. And he would run around, he had to sing, and he would run around the locker room and he would like literally get in guys' face. Like he'd come over and be like Shane. Are you gonna live today?

42:40 'Cause I'm gonna live. Right? And I'm like I remember like sitting there, like I'm the quarterback, I'm the number one overall pick. And like I'm so worried again, and I'd been pretending Like that this isn't hard, right? Like that I like again And here's this guy, like I mean Like third string linebacker and

43:00 He is like confronting the problem, right? Like it is man, this thing is hard what we're doing, and I'm gonna go out there despite all of that. Right, and I'm gonna live on the other side of the coin, like the courage side. Again. And uh I was in the fear. Kind of side if they were

43:15 Two mindsets and I would go watch him and he like By no means was he perfect, but man, he played fearless. Like and and it was his More than the words, although I love the you know

43:27 Are you gonna live But like it was how he went about it, right? And how he lived his life. And how he attacked the problem. That was the biggest example and had a huge profound effect on me. And like

43:39 It became this challenge to myself that like I stole from him. And I was like Are you gonna live like Man, are you gonna be present?'Cause you've been you've been gone for six years. Like you've been out there on the field, but you're not there. And he he probably had no idea. In fact I I've talked about it. I know he had no idea the effect he had on me at the time. And I think that's the cool thing when I try to talk like The power of teams.

44:00 And this is again to kinda bring it I guess full circle. I get asked all the time about the Mahomes. Mentoring him. Why'd you do it? And like I do go back to I was alone. in those meeting rooms like watching film and had no idea what I was doing and it sucked. And like

44:16 Patrick and I And it wasn't any I I didn't whisper any Like words of Yeah, like that's just not. He got a front row view. right alongside me to go see

44:27 All the stings to watch me watch film. To watch me prepare to play a game. To like you know, all the little things. Uh And so And that's what mentorship is.

44:37 Um You know, as a side of As a part of being a teammate. Yeah. I I mean I'm I'm thinking about the exact same thing you are. The aspect of mentor

44:47 ship on a on a team is is Something that's not talked about enough. And there was a moment in my my career that I can point to. I was a freshman, a hot shot freshman at Duke University. And here I was, I was national player of the year, you know, with number one recruiting class, we're the number one team in the in the season going into the season. Okay. Elton Brand and and all these guys. And uh our pre season training was really difficult. Uh part of our success was we were just in better shape than every team. And there was one particular drill called a seventeen across. And the seventeen across was seventeen wits of the of the basketball court in one minute.

45:22 Okay. And if one person missed Put a m six seconds back on the clock and run it again. So like I I used to like have nightmares about this. So I'll never forget going over from Cameron Indoor Stadium to Curr uh Gymnasium where we we practice in head conditioning. And I said uh to nobody in particular Yeah.

45:42 I hate seventeen across. And just then Our senior captain, Steve Bojowski, Woe Joe to the layperson, all right. All five foot eight of'em. Stops. Turns around, looks at me and says.

45:56 You know what I hate? Losing? Man, I felt. Yay Bake. I felt yay big. And in one

46:08 Little moment. I understood. What it was to be A member of the Duke basketball team. And it started with no complaining.

46:18 Right. And I started just to take all my cues from the senior leadership on that team, the the Steve Wojowski's, the Trajan Langdons, the R sh Rashad McClouds, just the how they how they carry themselves. They were Duke Basketball. You know, regardless of what I accomplished in high school and and all the fanfare I came in with my freshman class.

46:41 Like I wanted to be like them. And they set the standard. They were the first ones there. They were the last ones to leave. They never complained. They always showed strength. They never showed.

46:52 That they were Maybe anxiety ridden. Always confident. Yeah, I want to be like Trajan. I want to be like Wojo.

46:59 And then funny thing happens, you get older, you find yourself, you know, you're you're the senior captain and you feel this. This duty. To teach the younger guys, guys like Carlos Boozer and Jason Williams and Mike Dunley who come behind you. Hey, this is what it means to be part of this program. Right. It's not about just winning games or making shots. It's about how you carry yourself, how we work.

47:22 The lack of excuses. Right? Look each other in the eye. Um And You know, that's how tradition is

47:30 Yeah. Is continued. When you sort of just pass on the standards of what we stand for. It's understood.

47:39 And it's all it's often un unspoken. Yeah, that's where the magic that's that's where the good stuff happens. So My answer. It does. Um

47:48 I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before. So it's cool to talk about it. I won't go into a lot of detail is like Shane has actually been a lot of that for me, right? Like, you know, I think Shane is we've haven't like worked together, but like he is my teammate. He is somebody that I look up to on being an amazing teammate. And I think it's a is a great example of like the role you can play within a team and the everyday leadership. I've told you this before, Patrick, but the first time Shane and I had lunch together, I went to the bathroom and before I came back I saw him he was cleaning my seat.

48:16 And I was like, Man, that's like something my mom would do. You know, and like it's just like a really like All right, we're in this, we're together. You know, and like I think that that attitude is something I've seen. But the personality actually came to mind from work context.

48:29 This woman named Michelle Swanicole. Okay, who I worked with at Instacart, and she's still there. She's there before me, full time employee, and there after I left as a full time employee and like even though I'm still like involved, like she was like there, there. Okay. So The reason that I thought of her on like the what it teaches you to be a good teammates, like first, she'd gotten there. She's one of the first like 10 employees. And she joined as like

48:50 I don't know, city manager or something. But then she had done just so many different things. She had been there for a few years, by the time I got there, you know, she started out, you know uh managing a city, which meant she was like hiring a bunch of shoppers. Then she was, you know, um doing expansion stuff, like going to new cities. Then she was uh, you know, back to managing San Francisco, then just kind of a whole collection of different things. She had this great interview question she would ask people about like this elaborate set of situations of like, what do you do if this happens and the fridge breaks at the Petrero Hills, you know, uh Uh safe way. And the answer is instead of like all the analysis, it's like I go fix the fucking fridge. Right. And just like she would just like embody this culture of like we go do things, but you also do everything. She just like did each thing. She became like the director of culture. Now she's like the VP of HR, but she just like did everything.

49:41 And I think what it taught me was one like The only team that matters is the whole team. You know, like just the company. Right. The second thing that matters like there's gonna be people here that like outlive you. You know, and like the standard and the place that you're serving is actually like

49:55 I there is an institution here. And then the third thing Was that like there's people that rely on you. You know, there's like people that depend on you to be good and like I'll tell you like one of the things that Shane and I connect on and Alex and I connect on is this like need to buy in.

50:10 It's like too easy to be cool. Right. And to kind of like, well, I'm gonna be okay even if this doesn't work out. Right. And I think this is very true in like business settings, which is people don't give all of themselves the place, particularly when there's risk. Like, oh, I don't want to be branded as a a failure, right? Like I I still want to be successful, even if this thing doesn't work out. And I think part of what

50:29 Michelle instilled in me was like she was all in. She was like She was instacart to the core. She would like when she would wear the the jersey, right? When she would wear the shirt, like she wore it with pride. And I was like, I gotta be like that. It can't be that like, well, I'm okay even if we don't win. I'm gonna be fine. It's like no, I gotta like jump in the pool. I gotta be all in. And people have gotta know that it's okay to be all in. It's okay not to be cool. And they gotta see a leader doing that too.

50:52 Cool girl. Legal. One thing we haven't talked about is all the way to the top level here. Getting the team together in the first place. I know you've studied actually this in some detail.

51:02 And I I'm sure we've all thought about it. But you gotta get the coaches, you gotta get the I mean, I guess there's a GM at the very top or something, but someone's gotta put all these people together in the first place. What did you learn in that exercise about what makes for a great team or a great teammate In data. Qualitatively, quantitatively, however you studied it.

51:22 Well The first lesson we learned, we and we did a multi year study on just what do successful teams look like across all industries, not just sports. We're we're trying to find uh the the glue guys in sports, but we we we looked at military teams, we looked at business teams, we looked at families, uh any any any venture that involves more than one person and Where it starts is obviously with someone coming up with an idea. that people can get behind.

51:53 Okay. The the They were able to communicate. Why they're there. H you know, how are we gonna Launch his plan.

52:02 And why we're gonna be successful. Right. And uh I built the analytics department for the Miami Heat when I was there many, many years ago and the goal of of creating a world class data Team.

52:16 uh in a franchise that was a little foreign to to data analytics, um, was a bold uh statement. And when I went to the the lunchroom and said this is what we're gonna do, I got some weird stars. But after five years, we created a world class Analytics department. It is those. Catalysts that I talked about, the energizers. Who are on the ground.

52:37 who are the carriers of that message and that energy that is pervasive throughout the organization. As a leader, you know, I think you have a f a few jobs And what makes an effective leader Um is to have the energy to carry these out.

52:54 Right. Uh you it's your job. to Remind people every single day why they're there. That's exhausting.

53:02 As a leader. It's exhausting. Most leaders aren't willing to pay the price to remind the their their people why they're there every single day. And the second that you assume that the people know why they're there, you've lost. Right. And it's exhausting. Very, very few leaders had the energy and the stamina to keep

53:20 Doing it. And again, the second you start to think that I communicate enough, guess what? You probably haven't communicated enough. And the great leaders and you can read any biography about great leaders, they do those things. Ad nauseum and it takes An enthusiasm.

53:35 Um unknown stuff. Unmost a mankind like Jim Harbaugh and enthusiasm and a belief in and Who's got it better than us. Nobody. And and so again, what are you willing to sacrifice? To be great. As a leader.

53:53 That's the question you have to ask yourself. I was with someone recently who has been remarkably successful and has a foundation that they've set up. And I was asking him about the foundation.

54:05 And he told me the name of it, and I'm just gonna make up the name so as not to give it away, but it's you know, the John Harry Sally Foundation. Like that's a kind of a weird name for a foundation. Your name's not on the foundation. What's the story? And it was the name of the it was the I think the first name of the three prior generations of his ancestors. Oh that's cool. And like so many, if you go back in America, if you go back three generations, they were from, you know, somewhere else in the world and they immigrated here.

54:31 And he talked me through each of them. Ha basically what they did. That was then the foundation and the requirement for him to be able to do Do what he did. And I thought that was the coolest name I'd ever heard. And it makes me think of a question which is how your each of your families

54:48 Current And ancestral. Show up in your lives. Yeah.

55:00 The waspiest name there is, right? So but ironically it's funny you just say that like so on my I have a tattoo, one tattoo, it's on my back. And I got it with my dad. On his sixtieth birthday. And the name Smith, my name Smith comes from my great grandpa.

55:18 who was Serbian. And he was twelve when he came through Ellis Island. And he came with his brother who was fourteen. This is right around the turn of the century. And he was given or took the name John Smith. Right.

55:30 And Uh to the day he died. Ended up working his way west on the railroad, served in World War One in the Army and Never told anybody his real name. To the day he died. Not his wife, not his kids, not his grandkids.

55:43 And that's where the Smith line comes from. And so Uh long story short, on my back. with my dad. My dad was a long time educator, was a high school principal for Twenty five years, like.

55:54 We propose this idea of going and getting tattoos together and I'm like, he's not gonna say yes. Turns out he was for it, so We started doing this. And It's a Serbian cross. In a Serbian crow, I'm not religious, but this

56:05 This was like a You know. uh Serbian Cross Obviously it's an equilateral cross and then each Quadrant.

56:12 Um We put I put the four The four Letters of my great

56:19 Grandpa, my grandpa, my dad, and me as a line to this. Wow. Right. As where I come from, certainly sacrifices that have been made. Um, and then on top of it in Serbian is Otek, which means father. in kind of a line of the fathers, and this is my line. Uh Smith. I don't know my real

56:36 Name. You know what it would be. We've tried to research it and find out and it just that's a dead end. But uh Certainly I've always known that story. I've known that since I was

56:48 You know, since I could remember. Why our name is Smith, the most popular populist name in America. Why we got it. And uh

56:59 Certainly there was a A lot of pride for me. In it. From that story. Uh from the sacrifices like I

57:07 I knew my great I didn't know him. I knew his story though. Like As a kid coming here and working his way west on the railroads and serving in the military. And then my grandpa served in the Navy like uh how proud My and my dad knew him.

57:20 You know, he was my dad's grandpa and so my dad would tell the stories like when he was older He was kinda this like honorary older guy. Uh, a farmer. And that Like how adamant he was and how proud he was. Like of his name.

57:33 And I do think that that absolutely Is that Shaped my life. That's cool. I didn't know that. The tattoo and all that. My grandfather came nineteen fifty seven, so I think like obligation to succeed.

57:47 Some like fire comes from that. For sure. You know my family now, like you know, Ovni and the kids like You know the term of like your pride and joy, like it just those words are just words. There's like an expression, but that's actually what they are, right? Like they really are my pride and my joy. And they're

58:07 I feel kinda emotional Ste even talking like about them, but like they They are They are how I will measure my life. You know, like what will they say about me, how will they feel about me, and they are the the reason I do anything. And Alex and I were talking at breakfast today of like

58:23 You know, why do this? And We were kinda like I was just gonna like I'm only wanna do it as long as I'm proud of the outcome. Oh the output. I don't

58:33 actually care about any other thing that comes from it. And so far I've been like really proud of like the stuff. I like like talking about it with Ovni and the kids. And I think that They are the reason that I care about being proud of it. If that makes sense. It's funny, our my grandfather actually changed his name. Uh our like original last name back in the day was Bonsel.

58:52 Um And my grandfather just a pretty unique duty just kinda like didn't Like his life at in India and he didn't like He didn't like some of his family.

59:03 And he was just kinda like. Fuck this man. Like I'm changing it. Just a new chapter. Like new name, new country, like We're gone.

59:11 And just like Did it. And I I've told you this before, Vactor, but he did it like thirty five. Five kids. And so the other thing that comes from him I think is like

59:20 It is never too late to just like Do it. You know, like there and there's no excuse not to. So No.

59:27 Th that's very real for me. Well, my parents uh They shaped. My life. And

59:36 Uh I wouldn't be here without them, obviously. Um but I had a very interesting childhood. Uh I was the only mixed kid in my my town. Uh my dad was Big Ed Badier. Alright, only black eye in town. So by by default all the all all the little white kids were were were

59:52 Yeah. Kind of. scared of him, but like'cause he had big muscles and that the only black person they that they knew in Birmingham, Michigan. But he was the best little league coach. He was the best. Absolute best. I mean I still have people come up and say, You know what? You know, your dad was the kindest, most caring coach, and what my dad

1:00:11 Instilled in all of our teams. was And the enthusiasm. For each other. Right. And so I can't tell you one time he taught me how to hit a curveball.

1:00:22 Uh how to hold a bat. All right, he never raised his voice about anything skull related, but he raised his voice when we didn't hustle off the field. He raised his voice when we didn't give chatter. to you know, to the 10th man on on the bench.

1:00:37 a at bad after being owned for, right? He raises for us if our shirts weren't tucked in. Yeah. He raises his voice if we didn't practice sharp. He always said if if we don't Practice sharp, we're not going to play sharp. Right.

1:00:49 So he was a stickler. For everything that we could control. Regardless of talent. Right. And that's the standard he held us to.

1:00:59 Just do the best that you can do. And as a result, we had amazing, amazing, amazing uh camaraderie on our team. We had a lot of success. And Um

1:01:10 A lot of fun. A lot of fun. And so I grew up thinking like yeah, every every dad talks about this way to their their teams and their kids and I soon realized that that wasn't the case. And my dad was not a very educated man. Uh I went to junior college in in Minnesota for for transportation. Um But he was always present.

1:01:29 Always present. You know, this is before cell phones obviously, but can never remember him missing a single practice, a single game. So from him I learned the importance of just Being present. There's a father now of two and and and a husband. The importance of just showing up.

1:01:44 Every single day. And I'm sure my dad had bad days, but I never saw my dad have a bad day. Right. uh meant a few words, but he was there, and that was so important to me. And my mother to this day is still the toughest person I know.

1:01:58 And if you ask anybody in Birmingham, Michigan, she's fought with them all. All right. She's a tough lady. All right. She raises hell. And she was the one who told me growing up. that uh look, I know you're different, I know you're mixed, but they don't like you screw. All right. Make them respect you. And the one thing my parents did for me that I can never pay them for and is why I'm passionate about

1:02:21 education and giving opportunities to young people is Uh They enrolled me into a Detroit Country Day School, which was an elite private school in in Detroit. And We didn't have a part a part to possess. You know, and I went on financial aid and my parents had get five hundred dollars.

1:02:38 To send me to the school. And I mean they I don't know how they did it. It sees seems like nothing, but they found it and they sent me there. And it was many years later, my mom said, You know why we sent country day?

1:02:51 Because We didn't know how to get you to where you will be in life. We just don't have that. Capability.

1:03:00 But the people you were with at n in high school, at country day, could get you there. So we have to we had to get you there. to show to yourself that you can get there. I'm emotional not talking about it, but uh it was an unbelievable sacrifice for me. Um

1:03:16 That they have the foresight. And they realize their limitations and uh Uh just an amazing act of love and sacrifice. They sacrificed everything so I could have educational opportunities. Basketball, well, that was cherry on top. Cherry on top. You know, I grew to be six, eight, you know, and then fourteen can dunk of basketball. So that was that was a cherry on top, but it was always about the education. and the opportunity. And so um So I become just

1:03:41 very, very passionate about giving young people an opportunity and more importantly just just like seeing what's possible. You know, for my own kids and for for any kid out there, if you if you can see it Um plant that seed. Yeah.

1:03:55 You you can attain it. And uh sometimes it's as simple as just just laying as lay laying eyes on it. So I I wouldn't be here without those experiences for my folks. Does someone come to mind that is simultaneously incredibly strong? And Very vulnerable. Mm-hmm. Good one.

1:04:14 I think that you don't have one without the other. In my opinion. Like I don't know anybody that I consider strong that isn't vulnerable. Right, like re that isn't real. The best leaders that I knew, the best teammate leaders that like

1:04:28 There was nothing worse than like you know A team meeting or a team gathering or a breakdown. And freaking You know Disney guy jumps in there and gives some rah rah garbage, you know.

1:04:42 Like we everybody Got a B S meter. the guys I respected the most, the leaders, whether they were coaches Teenage peers. that were vulnerable and walked in and kept it real.

1:04:54 Right. And like whatever moment. You know, like they're The ups, the downs, the in betweens, like I I just think that that's what real strength is. Well, I I disagree. I think I'm having a hard time coming up with a a example of someone who is strong and vulnerable. I mean

1:05:08 We're taught to be like warriors out there. Like like like Coach K used to show us video. of us if we were making a face towards the official. Right. And he said, Look, if you're showing you that you're anxious or you're you are, you know, letting the officials affect the game, your opponents are saying, Well Look at Duke. They're distracted. We got'em.

1:05:29 Right. And so it was always Strong Chin. Strong face. Strong face. You know, and in athletics, like Look, you're in the locker room.

1:05:41 Because Everyone's always looking at you. Yeah. And if you're crying or you're showing anxiety. Yeah. Teammates starting around and say, Get this guy outta here. He's he's the weak lane.

1:05:52 Okay. No, I I I hear you and I just think that that's like I think that's also part of what I feel like we talk about to combat. 'Cause that is the the Disney narrative. Yeah. Right.

1:06:01 I don't want to keep using Disney. I I work for Disney, so I hope they don't I don't mean that. But you know the Hollywood the Hollywood version. Always be silent. Uh So like the Hollywood version of this is that. Listen, I like Nobody cried more than Frank Gore.

1:06:21 I mean we like cried like and I be I hope he did doesn't care that I'm putting this out there. Man, we would come in it meant so much to him. And he is a first ballot hall of famer. I mean the this guy is like the stud of studs. Like ever I get asked all the time, favorite like again, not favorite, but like he is the guy that like I have the most Pride that I I got to share eight years with him. Right, like share a backfield with him. Like this guy's a stud of a human being.

1:06:45 And like Man, you will you come in after a loss? Like he I mean He wasn't like he Crying. Yeah.

1:06:53 Like in the locker room. Like it was real. And like as a as a Teammate is an appear. Like to see him like let loose like that, like sobbing and screaming and like I mean it's like Holy shit.

1:07:06 Like you know how much me it mean like I knew how much it meant to him. Right. Like that that was It was everything. Patrick, the reason I thought about what you said when you asked like who do you know? Like I told you I idolize my dad, right? I don't think my dad, you know, showed a lot of vulnerability growing up. And I do think that that like the nature of that is that you think that's the right way to do it. Right. And like I've taken so much from my dad, ninety nine percent, whatever. One thing I will say that I've tried to do slightly differently is I try to show more vulnerability with the kids.

1:07:33 Right, like Uh m my dad is the best dad in the world. He d he's not a guy who says he's sorry terribly frequently, right? Like I apologize to my kids a fair amount, right? Like hey man, I messed that up. I'm really sorry. Like, you know, it this is my first time being a dad, you know, like that kind of stuff. And like those are things I do think that I I hope help us, you know. Um But the person that came to mind one per I think Pat Grady does a good job being strong and vulnerable. Um and I'll tell you I'll some examples, like you know, pee you know, works as a quo for people who don't know, but like

1:07:59 I think one like He is willing to tell you like He sort of is honest about how much it means to him. Right, which I think and his voice shakes sometimes. He definitely cries more than most people, particularly in a like our kind of office, but like his his voice will shake with emotion sometimes, not of anger, but like he just like really cares, you know, until that comes through. Sometimes he'll tell you, like, you know, I'm I'm worried I'm kinda like losing my edge. I'm worried I'm not In it enough. Like you know.

1:08:26 And I think for me that helps because I find the current job I'm in it's like a hard job. Right, and I think he's had a lot of success. And I actually think that there's a a benefit that he doesn't even know. that comes out from him saying like recognizing that it's hard. And saying like

1:08:42 Look, like I'm I'm afraid that I'm not doing this as well. I'm afraid that we're not doing this as well. And I think that um It certainly helped me a lot. The that he demonstrates that vulnerability because someone who's newer to it. It's sort of like it's okay to feel that way. I'm not supposed to feel like I always got it. You know? So I actually, interestingly enough, I think the best people do tend to do it.

1:09:05 I do think is much more rare. Then Uh It should be. And part of what I hope we can do is like

1:09:12 you know, admit it a bit more. And then what's the next step is not vulnerability in the past tense. Oh man, I used to go through this really tough time was really hard. It's vulnerability in the present tense. Like right now is fucking hard. And here's why. And I think that's like a you know like a Another bar. But that I think is the most valuable vulnerability. It's not just like talking about how you came through it. It's like talking about when you're in it. And like what are you gonna do about it?

1:09:36 You know? What about the urge to dominate? Just in general. Like you said nothing feels better than Winning. Yeah.

1:09:45 And most of the stuff we've talked about today. M most of the most legible. Missions. Is is kinda that. It's d it's dominating. The the books that sell the best. The

1:09:56 stories that get told the most in business, in the military, and you know, all these domains that everyone loves learning about. I mean the reality is it's often human against human and the desire to win and and beat other people. Maybe say a bit about the the feelings you've had of that urge to dominate and and

1:10:18 What you've learned from that. I'll let these guys tell better stories, but like I actually think that's I'm okay with that tension. And I mean that like I think that the way I square that is like as a team. As long as it's with my team.

1:10:30 As long as we're the people I want to ride with. Then yeah. Like let's dominate it. And let's dominate Whatever it is that we're going up against. And like I almost don't care if it's consistent.

1:10:41 Y you know what I'm saying? As long as it feels like okay and like consist it feels like good for me to My test is like not consistency, it's whether I would tell the kids it's okay. You know? And like I actually tell the kids all the time, like, yeah, you should wanna like dominate the things you're doing. You it's okay for you to try to wanna win. But ideally you do it as part of a team. And ideally you do it

1:10:59 With you know. Whoever you are, right? And the strength and the vulnerability and all that. But like Um Yeah, like I I am okay.

1:11:09 And in fact, kinda proud of the fact that like I am nasty competitive and wanna dominate and wanna win. And I think part of the thing for me is like it doesn't mean you have to be an asshole. You know, like you can still be like a a good dude. Um But Yeah, like I I find that to be pretty Like uh in line with my personality. And I'm okay with that.

1:11:31 The biggest takeaway I took away from My teachings, my days with Daryl Moore and Sam Hankey. Right. is to understand how much winning is actually luck. Randomness.

1:11:42 Right. For as much as as us as successful people think we control the the process and the or the narrative and and the outcome. So much goes into winning and dominating your opponent. That A lot of it's out of your control.

1:11:58 But what you can control is the process. The inputs. The going to The output. Right.

1:12:06 Are you as good at that in your personal life as you were professionally? 'Cause I remember you told me that professionally you were good at that. I I think so. Yeah. I think so. I I I sometimes you lose focus.'Cause look, we all love to win. Yeah. Right. And we all when you win you you think you had a a big Yeah. For sure.

1:12:22 Uh, but really, really, really focusing on the work, the process, the attitude, the consistency, all the things you Control. Um Again, when you win, that's what you but that's what you give credit to. No, we had a great plan and we had a great team. Right, right.

1:12:45 Um did you receive th that interview with Shaq after they won the high school championship and the reporter said Shaq, wow, congratulations on the win. To what do you attribute your team's success? And he said, I attribute it to me. That talent difference was pretty different, you know? So I wasn't on that level. My battles with Kobe Bryant. You know, I've had games where he scored sixty points on me, and I've had games where he shot seven for thirty against me. I've been I've been on on both ends of the same input. Same input.

1:13:24 different I think with wins and losses kind of like opposite almost to that. Yeah. Exactly. And I take solace in the fact that you know what, I did what I wanted to do and I did it as hard And as as enthusiastically as I could and you live with the results. So Maybe a weak answer, but that's that's how I think about it. Unfortunately we're At the point where I need to ask my traditional closing question of everybody.

1:13:48 I'm so excited to hear you guys chop it up like this every week. I hope for a very long time. I've been lucky to be able to listen to the first seven or eight of these already. And when people get a chance to hear you guys Tell your stories, reflect on the lessons. It is such an amazing jolt.

1:14:06 as a listener every week. And I I'm so appreciative that we get to to play a small role in that and do it with you guys. So this has been so much fun. My traditional closing question for everybody is to ask, what is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? We've already asked. No, you've actually had a shit. Yeah, we've got two we can't already. Yeah, exactly. Alex, sounds like it's your turn. I'll give it uh two quick things. I mean, certainly fatherhood, I just said is the is the greatest gift that I've had. Uh

1:14:33 My three kids. Um I mean that's it for you know, like that it just is it's something that I don't take for granted. Um

1:14:43 That uh is Be hard, it's hard for me to put into words. Um with that I'm I'll uh just a fun story. So my wife's gonna hate that I'm telling this. 'Ca you know, this is this is the the nicest thing.

1:14:58 Maybe. Um When I was coming back from my leg injury. It was it was a long process, two year process and throughout the entire time, you know, I'm getting regular uh scans and and x rays on my leg.

1:15:10 And I had what was called and I still have what's called a non union. Which means my leg's still broken. Okay. And I have a steel rod in there. But

1:15:19 There was this spot That's not healing. And so Even as I was like kind of progressing through my rehab. It wasn't looking good.

1:15:28 the this prognosis. Right. Um And so Meanwhile I'm kinda pushing ahead. Um

1:15:36 figuring out like if I I want to push the limits of of what I can do. You know, I've said I want to play football again, which was crazy, but I'm kind of like You know, again, I'm I'm learning to walk. I'm learning to to to jog and jump and run and do these things all over again and Then Covid hits and the world shuts down. And so I go from getting regular scans to no scans at all.

1:15:56 And'cause like right, like I I It's just not happening. And so meanwhile I've got to the point where I'm like lacing up cleats now and I'm and I've told you guys this, like I'm recruiting every high school kid I can find to come run route. Run route. And my wife's playing defensive end and rushing me you know past her and I'm trying to see if I can like, you know, get out of harm's way. And just I'm I'm like loving this. This is like still a special time

1:16:20 For me looking back in hindsight. Um even though the world was obviously kind of chaotic. And uh So it I go this span of like Almost eight

1:16:31 Nine months without imaging done. And here we are, we're getting towards the twenty twenty season. And I I knew at this like

1:16:40 It was kind of as we're getting here towards this time of year, right? Like right. training camps going on. It was kind of like Make or break time. Like my wife had even said, Like this is either happening or it's not. Right, they like it's this year or never, now or never kinda thing. And so I go back to D C

1:16:55 And I get a big round of imaging done. And again, had it had been like eight months. And I'm just kind of it had always been bad news. I'm expecting kinda more of the same'cause I gotta get clearance. To get played. to to play to have a chance to even try to attempt a this comeback. And so

1:17:11 I got all these M R I, C T scans, X rays all done and and my Lead doctor in Uh DC's like hey. Why don't you and Elizabeth come over? Uh you know, like tomorrow night.

1:17:22 And we'll we'll talk about everything. And I'm like Shit. This is not good. Right. Like he's n we haven't done this. Like we've become incredibly close over two years, but like this is not good.

1:17:31 And so my wife and I go over there. And I'm like You know. Expecting bad news. All the military docs that were consulting on my leg, plus my team of surgeons in in DC, it all kind of conferred on the images.

1:17:44 We meet him over on his Backyard. He pours tequila. For everybody and I'm just like Fuck.

1:17:52 And then he says it. And he's like You're good to go. It's healed enough. Right.

1:18:00 And I'm like No shit. I have that's like the dumbest grin on my face. Cause I'm asking him all these questions like I thought like I'd never be able to do again. I'm like I can go like mountain biking. Rock climbing. Skin.

1:18:13 Snowboarding, right? Like bungee jumping. Like you know, like you name these like extreme things that I never thought I'd be able to do again. And he's like, Yeah. And And then it kinda hits me in that moment. Yeah. Oh shit.

1:18:27 He's gonna let me play football. And my stomach dropped. Like in that moment. And I immediately get in my head again.

1:18:35 And I'm I'm Worried. I'm anxious. Oh,'cause forever. It it it seemed so unattainable. It was so far away that like while I was chasing it. Right, like it just I never was gonna get there.

1:18:48 And now it's it's here. Like it's in front of me. Like camp starts in a couple of days. And I just got the green light. And it's like oh Fuck.

1:18:56 Like What if my leg breaks again? What if I make a fool out of myself? Like I got Permanent drop foot. I got a bunch of crazy shit I gotta tr try and deal with. Like This this could go wrong in so many ways.

1:19:09 Right. And I want off this. So badly. Like I want like this train I'm on. Get me off.

1:19:16 And my wife's there and we leave and we just go sit in the car. And as we're like exiting I am like Just Praying.

1:19:23 She through me a lifeline. They like we get in this car And she says You know what, babe? But she's got this great news.

1:19:32 Like the rest of our life, like Do we really need football? Like, and I want her so badly to like give me this. Right, like'cause like I'll take it right now. Like g you know, again, like I'm scared to death.

1:19:43 Uh Just Again. Self doubt. And uh

1:19:48 We get in the car and just And we just sit there. And just I think she absolutely could sense she knows me, you know, better than anybody. It could sense where I was at. And all my apprehension.

1:20:01 And we just sat and talked. And About regret. Kind of about life. Um

1:20:10 About the two years of work that I had been Putting in. Right. And that like if you'd a fast

1:20:16 And they were talking about like amputating my leg. If you'd ask that guy then Like I would have jumped at that. Like are you fucking kidding me? Hell yeah. Like You know, like I never thought that would happen and now here I have it in front of me.

1:20:33 And I'm gonna turn it down. Right? Like I'm gonna turn my back on this. And I a thousand percent. Like her

1:20:43 And she hates this because it's not like she was like pushing me back to play. But like just talking to me like so real. And again, like she carried such a burden for those two years. Like she nursed me back to health. I mean I had a pick line in my heart. Like she had to like we had ran I was in a wheelchair for six months. Like it just was she carried such a burden, like keeping the house together. And if there was someone that deserved to be like That's not you know, no more. Like She did.

1:21:10 And I think to just put everything in perspective and help me deal with All of that in that moment. was such a real thing.

1:21:19 It's such a strong thing. And I don't think like I don't know if I could have done it. if the roads had been reversed. And uh Like my life if I I think about my life would be so different if I hadn't done that. Yeah. Like

1:21:34 So different. Like the free like Knowing I mean, I thought I was fragile. Uh

1:21:41 This my leg is shattered, I was like immune compromised, like I You know, and the freedom I have going forward. Uh the mindset. because of that, like in that moment. And to think like that I I want it out of there.

1:21:54 Right. And again for her to Help me work through that. Uh Again, I guess it was it was Sorry to be long winded but

1:22:01 Like really, really cool gift. Incredible. I'm glad that Shane and I have answered this question on previous podcast. So we can end with that. Gentlemen, I can't wait for the episodes ahead. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you for having me, Patrick. If you enjoyed this episode, check out join colossus.com.

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