The surprising product that built Italy's richest family

0:00 I gotta bleep this out, but Then he's extremely multi billionaire. Extremely multi millionaire. Extremely I feel like I could Well It be what I want to

0:13 I put my law in it like my day's all the roadless travel never left. Sam, I have here in front of me. A letter that I need to read for you. So I uh I opened the mail. And I see a invitation. Like this.

0:27 to a graduation. And I think that's not my cousin. That's not my nephew. Who is this? Dear Sean. My name is Quentin Wood. I've been listening to M F M for uh since twenty twenty one over the last five years You and Sam's podcast has made a huge impact on my life, shaping how I see the world, investing in stocks, my goals, my life.

0:45 Your podcast brought me a lot of joy and helped me through Long runs and study sessions. Uh, you and Sam have directed my life for the better, so thank you. I'm a high school senior this year. And because of the profound impact you've made in my life, I want to invite you to my graduation and graduation party. He lives in he lives in Colorado. Thank you for thank you for taking the time to read this and everything you do. Keep making more episodes. Sincerely, Quentin Wood.

1:07 High school senior. Isn't this amazing? Baller. Congrats, Quentin. Take a bow, Quentin.

1:20 Mm. How good is that, man? I love this kid. If you're under the age of twenty four.

1:28 You should do some of these things. that might sound insulting, like if we said that's endearing, or I would never say that's cute, but like you feel like that emotion. You should one hundred percent embrace doing those things because you can only get away with this at a very s for the very small time and it's totally appropriate and totally awesome. It's like Poop in your pants. You can only do it for so long. And then we could do it like later in life. But like you like this type of stuff, uh one hundred percent is awesome. And by the way, it okay, a bunch of people have written letters, but just inviting to the high school graduation was so endearing, I just thought. I was like, Oh, that's so like so wonderful. Diego was like, So we're gonna go? I was like No, hell no. We're definitely not going. But I but I I will play him the song and and give him the clap. This is great.

2:15 Okay, I want to tell you about this this business story that that uh This to me, this is this is a Billy of the Week. So this is a a a a billionaire family that I I found really fascinating. And I've been into these like family dynasties. Last last week, I think we were talking about Cargill. And this one is Can I I wanna try and guess these. I like trying to guess. Let me give you a couple of clues so you can know which direction you're going.

2:38 The richest man in Italy. Sunglasses or chocolate. Chocolate. Okay. Do you know who it is?

2:47 Yeah. Uh I uh r rush Roche. Is it called Roche something? Yeah. So uh Okay well you got that pretty quick. It's a lot less fun when you just know the answer, huh? If I was a teacher, I would just be like, well fine, teach yourself that and walk out of the class. Dude, this family story is amazing. So I love for a Roche the chocolate. I don't know if you've like if you're a fan. Do we have do we have one? Oh here. So if for those who don't know, I have some here.

3:19 Got this from uh from the grocery store this morning. 'Cause I was so inspired by these guys. I was like, I'm gonna go support their small business. He's worth thirty two billion dollars. Um so the these chocolates are kind of amazing. There, the packaging is amazing. If you've ever had one of these, you really feel like you're eating something special. And that got me kinda interested in like what's the backstory of this? Turns out This family invented Nutella? They invented tic tacs. They invented like a whole bunch of uh kinder, the kinder bars and kinder eggs. They invented like uh several of these like really big things, and now they own a whole bunch of other businesses. So I want to tell you the the story of this this company that's

3:55 It's one of the most secretive family owned businesses in the world. They do like twenty billion dollars a year in revenue. The founder is the the the main guy, the the heir. He runs the company and is the richest man in Italy. And the way they did it is really fascinating. So

4:12 Um Back in the day, this was post right after World War Two. Italy, which was like, you know, not in great shape post World War Two. Um, it was trying to kind of bounce back. And so this guy, uh the grandfather uh of of this guy, he decides I'm gonna start. Um making chocolate. Chocolate was really expensive. It was like this luxury

4:31 item. It wasn't like a little common thing you found at every store. Not everybody was eating it. And so he starts when he hit the f he had the form factor wrong. He was trying to make a a bar, like a a spread. So it's like butter. It would be like this kind of hard chocolate like butter stick essentially. And his idea was like people will put this on toast and you'll have like a chocolatey toast. And I think at the time, like chocolate was like something like it w it was like the equivalent of caviar. Like if you went to like a fancy dinner party, you would see it. And if I remember correctly, I don't even think it tasted nearly like a taste now. It wasn't like a

5:04 They've just added butter and sugar over the years to the mix. It's like'cause if you have like c a cacao bean or cacao powder. It's like bitter. It's like very bitter, right? So so you you really have to like butter and sugar it up. So he he tries the bar, people don't like it, they're complaining, they're like it's too hard, doesn't spread easily. So he's like, Okay, I gotta solve the spread problem. And he comes up with a jar. With cr like a creamy

5:27 Chocolate, like a a jam, basically. And it's like a precursor to Nutella. It wasn't quite Nutella yet. Um, but the idea was like make it w super spreadable, put it in a jar. And it was called Super Crema. And so he starts trying to sell super crema.

5:41 And it's doing okay. Him, he's like the chef. And he's just trying to make like delicious pastries, basically. And he's got the brother who's the business side and they're they're doing all right. Not great. But over time the sun takes over. And the sun Is a bit more of an innovator. So first, I think the government like bans the use of crema in the name. So he's got to rebrand it anyways, and he decides

6:01 to call it Nutella. And uh it it was m just hazelnuts are a big ingredient for the thing. And he makes it, he tweaks the recipe, makes it better, and the son starts innovating. He gets in the lab and he basically creates He notices that breath mint. are great, but there's all these problems. They come in these like big pins, hard to carry around, right? This like big giant rectangle. to open it up, you had to like kind of find the theme and pop it open.

6:25 And then, you know, if you wanted to like share it with somebody, they had to like dig through, touch all of them. And so he creates the tic tac form factor. So it's way easier to open smaller box, smaller form factor. And the ads were all like one person's hand out. And then putting a tic tac in and it was basically like A tic tac was almost like a social gift. It was a social icebreaker, something you want from somebody else. So carrying it was almost like a thing of power. These old tic tac ads are so good. If you Google vintage tic tac Italian ads. The old ads are like

6:57 Pretty awesome. A lot of the ads would have a question mark. Which you would not normally do. You wouldn't say Tic Tac question mark, but The whole thing is basically it's an offer to somebody else. And um it's just a way to be smooth. Way a way to it's a it's

7:10 It's Small talk for the mouth. Was Tic Tac the original name? Hey, I want to tell you about something pretty cool. We have a database of all of the business ideas that have been discussed on this podcast. So hundreds of episodes. The team at HubSpot went through. They pulled out all the simple

7:25 Relatable interesting, profitable uh ideas that we have brainstormed and they're all available for download for free. Just click the link in the description below. Thank you to our friends at HubSpot for sponsoring this podcast and putting together this free resource for you guys. Back to the show. Yeah. So so tic tac was uh you know, a a brilliant name also. And it starts getting used in movies because the name is just like fun to say.

7:47 And um and then he he's like, you know, we've talked about touchland soap, this this B this w woman who who sold this company for I think eight hundred million dollars or something recently. And what she does is she took Purell like hand sanitizer, this utilitarian ugly product.

8:02 And she made it look like women's perfume and it it came in different scents. And it was all hand sanitizer, but you know, it was something small you'd want to carry in your pot in your purse that looked cool, smelled great. And didn't have like you know, change of just competed in a different dimension than hand sanitizer. Not trying to kill more germs per second. Let's say your hands aren't gonna smell like ethanol at the end of this, right? So then then you have the the Farroche like packaging where it's like this this, you know, these golden nuggets, these like special things that are that are put into this. And so just brilliant all around in terms of like How they how they did uh the marketing genius behind some of these things.

8:40 And so the brand takes off. It's doing really, really well. He's an innovator. And now they're super secretive. I think for like Up until four or five years ago, they had never done an interview. They had never let anyone into the factory. It was like on some real Willy Wonka shit. They um, you know, it was like the one journalist who got in was like, This is actually less like Willy Wonka. It's more like area 51. There was armed guards. They because they build their own machinery to produce the the chocolate. So they didn't want anyone To know the engineering behind their machinery, the recipes behind the tella. They didn't want to know anything. And they weren't really even using it for marketing purposes, like the f the grandfather. It all the photos of him, you'll see he's wearing dark sunglasses. He just never wanted to be seen, never wanted to be known.

9:21 And so only very recently did they start doing anything. And so then you have the grants on the third gen. And so gen so gen one was kind of like Um the pioneer. Trying to make it happen was s kind of like uh

9:35 Pioneers are what what settlers get s pioneers get slaughtered, then the settlers do whatever, and then the townspeople build the empire. It's kinda that same thing. So Yeah, he didn't really make it, but the sun br had the breakthrough innovations. And then th that guy's son. took on a totally different strategy. He went Warren Buffett. He was basically like А інвеньез продукт.

9:55 Really expensive, really low low hit rate. What if we went and found value brands that we could turn around? And so he went and bought Butterfingers and Baby Ruth and Crunch and like all these brands acquired them. try to revitalize the brand and then bring them back. And so he's built this portfolio of other brands now. And he took like an M and A approach.

10:16 And I just thought What's the Italian word for Private equity. This is some beautiful private equity that I've been seeing in play here for the last eight years. I bought a I bought a uh

10:29 Butterfinger last night. I I freaking love Butterfinger. I feel old, but I like it. I did. I I mean myself and Sam having a butterfinger or what? I went to the C V S and I got the uh the movie style. You know how they like put like I totally had a whole box of myself last night. So I'm on board with this guy. I don't like Butterfinger.

10:51 Love Crunch. Uh Baby Ruth? But no way. Nam after Babe Ruth.

10:58 It's that? No. This is named after Ruth Cleveland, the daughter of President Grover Cleveland. Oh, is Babe Ruth the baseball player named after her then? I don't think so. You can't have two bay bro I mean that's like

11:14 There's not like I don't know how they got a uh got away with that. Uh, this is uh this is pretty awesome. Why are you um fascinated by this, uh this topic because it's uh clearly a trend. Well I have all these like themes. So one is like B huge businesses hidden in plain sight is always something that's interesting to me. So like, you know, I've been eating this, but I never took the time to think.

11:35 Who made this? What's the story of this? Why does this packaging look so different than any other product that in the entire store? And why don't more people do this? Why isn't like Like w how can you apply this marketing principle? to another category. Like I can't believe people aren't doing that. So that immediately my brain starts firing and I start fantasizing about these products I'm gonna create before I remember I'm already rich. I don't want to work and I had this way too much work to do any of that. But if somebody ever did it, you know, like you know kudos to them. Rory Sutherland who we had on he talked about uh what's the name of the soda that has the piece of foil on top. You know, the Italian also Italian actually. Oh, Pellegrino? Uh

12:11 No. You're close. Pella something. It starts with a pea and it's. It's like a lemonadey type thing. It's like a lemon flavored Italian soda. Is it San Pellegrino? Okay. I thought San Pellegrino was also water, but this is like San Pellegrino like soda. Yeah. And he was explaining how the tin over it. He's like that's a really small thing, but they did it to be like This can is extra clean and special. It's never been like top of the seal. He was explaining the importance of something fairly insignificant in the grand scheme and how it and he was explaining the psychology behind it. And and that really got me thinking. And you're you're describing the exact same thing with the uh with the candy. It's wrapped in like a gold tin

12:48 And I I was thinking about that a lot. And I guess it's another Italian company pulling it off. Yeah, so I I love the marketing mind. That's always a fascinating thing. I love businesses hidden plain sight. I'm always a sucker for you know the rich richest man in Italy and I'm like

13:02 Sure don't. You know, tell me. Like it's there's gonna be an interesting story. And then I am also interested in these kind of family Dynasty businesses. Um because I I I think it's it the businesses that really like Withstand the test of time. They have to do like several miracles and one of the great miracles is that

13:20 It has to get passed down to somebody who Doesn't screw it up. And what I thought was kinda cool, there was a story about one of the one of the generations. I don't know if it's the current one. Um by the way, I'm opening one of these up. I don't know if it's the current one or it's the the middle sun.

13:34 But he said something like he didn't even realize they were rich until he was like fifteen years old. He's like, I had no idea. Uh, they kept that from me. It's like The four housekeepers didn't tip you off. Uh, so I don't know exactly how that was possible, but yeah, that apparently there was something in the upbringing where Uh, I think they w they sp just spent so much time actually working

13:54 in the like factory and and on the product that It wasn't clear. Like it it was more about the work and the craft than it was about the r the prizes. That's awesome. I would love to um I listened to a the reason I know very little about it, but I know some about it is because um founders the founders podcast, he did an episode on the family. And it's a pretty old one, so I listened to it a while ago.

14:14 Uh but it would be curious. I would be curious to see like would you ever like to listen to founders without the research? M FM, we're here for ya. While you're stuffing your face with food, which is like the that sounds great on the mic. Let me hear you chew. There's nine AM chocolate is hitting the spot. Um, dude, I it's It's intermittent fasting, but you intermittently eat a fair rocher while you're fasting. Uh I w I wanna know like the family dynamics. I'm so curious. I think that

14:44 Like the stories of succession, the the movie or the T V show and like the drama. I don't think That is actually the common thing. I think that like there is a way where you can be like harmonious and loving and also like good at this whole business thing. And I it's just less interesting to write or read about that or make a movie or st uh TV show. Harmony. Yeah. Yeah. But it would be really exciting to like read a book on how they do it effectively. Uh another family that done that that did it effectively is the Rothschild family. Do you know about those guys?

15:16 I mean I just know the name. I don't know what they did in the family. Like there's a crazy story where the Uh like the the original clan, so they're known now as like Illuminati esque, where it's like mysterious. But the original story is uh I believe they were uh in Germany in the eighteen hundreds. And the dad was uh into business and banking.

15:37 And he had five sons and he seemed very loving and respectful with them, and he purposely asked them to g move when they became adults to different countries. And do the banking trade that he was doing and teaching them. And that is how they became this like Amazingly uh successful European family. But the kids were like, No, he was he was a really loving guy. He like he taught us good uh values and and we like doing this with him. And and so uh like I've been reading a little bit about the that family as well. Yeah, I uh it's I I mean, I don't know if I'm ever gonna do that, but uh I did have a r random idea recently that I it's kind of like fascinated me.

16:13 So I was listening to some interview with um The chef from Carbone, and he said something. The interview actually was a little bit boring, but he said one thing that I thought was was pretty interesting. He goes, Oh, I was always obsessed with food. I was twelve years old and I was I was I was an absolute foodie. I was always watching cooking shows. I knew about every restaurant. I knew I wanted to be a chef. And yeah, one of the greatest

16:35 gifts that nobody really talks about, right? Like you w you want your kid to be, you know, really good at school or really good at sports, really whatever. I mean, really one of the best things you can do is figure out what you actually love to do in life. The earlier you figure that out That's actually the big advantage. And so that was Warren Buffett's advantage. It's Warren Buffett's it it's everyone if you read these guys, they Yeah, Jim uh Mr. Beast is like Yeah, twelve, I decided eleven years old I decided I was gonna die a YouTuber.

17:00 Like I just wanna be a YouTuber. That's all I wanted to do. And so from a le he's like, Yeah, so I'm whatever he is now, twenty eight. He's like, yeah, but I've been doing this for twenty years. It's like I've been doing this 17 years now. And so he's literally just spent more time on this than anyone else. Warren Buffett bought first stock at seven and basically was Thinking about businesses, money, and stocks. Since he was very young and and had time during that golden window and and When I interviewed Monish Pabright, he was I was asking about these books on the wall. He had a a whole section on like science and neurosci uh neuroscience and uh psychology.

17:33 And I go, What's something you really took away from reading a bunch of these? And he goes We have a certain hard wiring. That's kind of baked by the time you're six or seven. Like your your core nature, your DNA, y you kinda know who that person is. But he goes and there's a golden window. And I think the golden window was something like, you know

17:52 Six to sixteen years old. And during that ten year window. If you Found something that's That you can obsess over.

18:01 And you can um You get free reign to actually obsess over it during that window. You will sp hyper specialize when the brain is in this certain period and you'll become world class. Like you're you're the rest of your life happens. And if you really don't, and so he he talks about this with Investing. He's like, I don't invest in companies where the CEO doesn't have an evidence of The lemonade stand when they were ten or eleven.

18:21 If you really if you're an entrepreneur, you were an entrepreneur. At it really said, No, I don't hundred percent believe this. But I did Think it's interesting and you do see this pattern a lot. Did he have that? Did Manish have that? Uh yeah. So he I asked him that and he was like he's like yes, and he goes it wasn't for entrepreneurship. It was basically for like

18:40 His dad had a jewelry business or a gold business or something like that. He said, like basically my MBA was every day my dad would come home and the business was failing, and me and my brother Had to figure out something we could try. to get this business to not fail to have enough cash to be like in business next month. And so in doing that he's like I basically got my MBA when I was eight years old.

19:02 Every day helping my dad with his jewelry business, working in the store, coming home, hearing the problems, hearing the inventory struggles. The cash flow management problem. Wha w if we have all these sales, why don't we have any money? Oh, because there's a difference between revenue and profit, between profit and cash flow. And you know, he's like learning these things without knowing the names of them. Like there's sort of intuitive gut learning that's happening during that phase. And for the record, you don't need that to be pretty successful. I do think that'd be pretty but to be world class. Yes. I think that that's the advantage that the best of the best of the best have. And you see like oh in the world a world cup right now, it is like um Laminum All it's like you what how come the US doesn't produce players like this and it's like well because at age seven he went and moved in to the soccer academy and he was there from seven to seventeen. And guess what? He's amazing now at eighteen. Which which maybe your kid would have been two had they left the house and moved in.

19:51 Um, you know, to the soccer academy at age six or seven. And that's like really all they trained and focused on for a long period of time. Are you willing to do that? Uh, the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell talked a little bit about this. Like You know, at a young age, Bill Bill Gates and Paul Allen, the founders of Microsoft. Their school was the first one of the only schools in the country to have a computer. So he got to mess around with the computer

20:12 For free had free access to it after school for like a very long period of time. Yeah, Furcon, my old co founder, he would tell me like Yeah, his dad worked at a computer company. So when he was five years old, like his earliest memory wasn't like playing catch with my dad, it was like building a printer from scratch. It's like yeah, no no no joke that now he can like build anything. Um because during that golden window he did that. Anyways, long way of saying I've thought about how you could be somewhat intentional about this, meaning

20:38 If my kid shows an interest In something. I think I'm gonna lean in way harder than most people would during the golden window, and I've thought about taking like a sabbatical year. Where I'm just like gonna pluck him out of school for you know in fifth or sixth grade. And just be like, Hey, we're gonna travel the world and like

20:54 We're I'm just gonna develop you. I'm gonna shape you now. Not like when I'm sixty five and I retire and I have more time because you're gonna be The cookie's already crispy by then. You know what I mean? Like I gotta do it when the dough is raw. And so I'm thinking about that. Um

21:09 Does that sound crazy? No, it's so it's so funny. Um a friend for my birthday, a friend gifted me the Andre Agassiz book that I I haven't started it yet, but I was asking him what he learned. Uh have you ever read that? Andre Agassiz his biography is considered. It's considered one of the best biographies and I'm not a tennis and my friend and I neither of us are tennis guys, but he's like it's it's so good. And I said, What's the big takeaway? And he was like, The crazy thing is Andre didn't even seem like he loved tennis. And he he frankly didn't seem like he had superstar energy. Um, like he kind of begrudgingly did it.

21:41 Uh, but he was pretty good and I was like, Well, how did he become like one of the greats of all time? And he said, His dad. His dad was maniacal. His dad like his dad saw that Andre showed a little bit of interest and he just pushed him and and just went all in on it. And I was joking and I was like Okay, so maybe he Maybe he did or didn't have a good relationship with his father, I'm not sure. But I think that like these guys like Uh, Serena Williams' dad, Andre Agassiz's dad, like some of these harsh fathers.

22:07 I'm like They get a lot of shit. But like Seems pretty worth it, like to have this like tiger dad, this tiger mom energy. Hey, let's take a quick break. You know that feeling when strategy is done, the brief is written, everyone's aligned, and you realize someone still has to sit down and actually create all the content?

22:24 That someone is usually and it's due tomorrow. Well, the Breeze assistant from HubSpot can help. It works right inside HubSpot. You can draft a campaign copy, blog posts, emails, all in your brand voice, all using your actual customer data. So you don't create just content, you create content that converts. Check out hubspot.com, the agentic customer platform for growing businesses.

22:44 I was watching uh Nadal's uh uh documentary on Netflix. Did you see that one? I've seen a little bit of it. Yeah. I love the doll. I love the doll. His dad was the same way. His father was so hardcore about it.

22:58 And he pushed him and pushed him and pushed him and was his coach. And then there's this other guy named Sebastian Coe, who's a famous runner. So not that many people are gonna know who he is, but he's he w had the world record for the mile. And his dad, Peter, was the same way where they would run and his father would be in the car with the stopwatch timing every interval. Behind every great man is a great woman. It's like and an abusive father. I do think that there's a way that you can do this where you can like balance like being a good like a nurture and also a pusher. I'm not saying I'm gonna like hyper train them for greatness on like, you know, hey, get up, we're running sprints every morning, like, you know, whatever up the hills. What I meant was really I'm gonna give them exposure because I think most people the problem isn't that you found what you love.

23:44 And then you didn't Keep doing it. Cause when you really love something, it has a great amount of pull. You just do it anyways. I think what most people don't do is they don't really get to walk around Costco and sample the things. And I think that's actually the more interesting thing is like how do you get somebody exposure? Because I would say the vast majority of people never even find out if they really love something. Cause By the time you Like school is such a regimented track.

24:07 Right. You're spending eight hours a day doing the same exact things as every other kid. Did you happen to love photosynthesis? Did you happen to love trigonometry? Like probably not. And so by the th and then and it's all just funneling you to get into a college. And when you get into a college and it's about getting a job. By the time you have a job Now you're working and you're trying to like pay for life. And by the time you're thirty, you're like, well, I didn't really get that one that that opportunity to go figure out that actually it was podcasting that I really had an affinity to. I actually really loved that. Or it was, you know, whatever it is, like baking. It was this, it was that. It doesn't really it's hard to even know. And I think most people never even know. And so the thing I want to make sure I do for my kids is

24:42 Get you to at least feel and see what different what the world is. What are what's even on the menu of options so that you have some exposure in life. Cause I don't think the world by default. Does a good job of giving you exposure. You and I have a great friend. Ramon. So Ramon Van Van Meer and um

24:58 He Ramon had a difficult situation where he became a single dad when his son was only two years old. And I met V Victor when he was I think three. Now he's actually uh a sophomore or junior in college. And um

25:15 He uh R Ramon was crazy. Um Partly he did us out of necessity, partly because he's a really amazing dad. And uh he would bring Victor starting at the age of maybe seven. To these really big business meetings. I remember he sold one company when Victor was something like 10 years old. He sold it for close to 10 million dollars. And I remember he would go to LA from San Francisco and he would take Victor out of school and bring him. And Victor would just sit

25:41 uh like next to him and Victor wouldn't talk, but he would um uh pay attention to the meeting and afterwards Ramon would be like Victor, what's your opinion? What should we do? Um, and then another time, uh, Victor has actually been to China, um uh I think a couple of times uh because Ramon has a company now, uh Afina, where they have uh manufacturers in China and he'll bring them to China and he'll just sit quietly and be like Uh afterwards Victor or Ramon will be like, Hey, okay, so what do you think? You think this guy's Legit, should we go with him? Should we do this? And I remember seeing that. And before I had kids, I thought it was awesome. And then after I had kids, I thought it was like a blessing, a treasure. I like it changed from like this is cool to admiration. Right. Uh to like you have gone from being a good dad to a deity to me. Like you are like I can't believe how special and how lucky Victor is to have you.

26:29 And I remember seeing that and I'm like That is the way to have a kid. I I agree a hundred percent. Seeing the same thing. Uh he Ron is an amazing dad and Uh it's not just I I think it's a very important thing. 'Cause I've watched that.

26:41 And in the moment you're just kinda like, Well there the the advocate is there. Didn't say anything, or maybe even after the fact. What'd you think? It was good. It was cool they're not gonna give you some satisfying answer as of course as a dad, like You know, Dad, I really learned the like the virtue of hard work today. Actually what I saw was they're never gonna tell you the thing, but like

27:00 You just have to trust the process and be like, it's all soaking somewhere, somewhere in the mind. This experience was imprinting somewhere in the brain. in a positive direction. And that if they you know, if I didn't give them this experience, I would have in a way robbed them. of of some of that exposure. So yeah, I'm a I'm a big believer in that. My kids are really little right now, but I I do similar things. That's awesome. Okay, let me tell you another story about someone. You and I, we get invited to some stuff that occasionally is interesting.

27:26 Most of the time we both say no. But I decided to go to one of these dinners and it was in a beautiful apartment and clearly some guys uh there were like total ballers. But I sit next to this one guy. And He's very unassuming and I start talking to him and he's very nice. He's kinda like Darmash Shah, the the one of the founders of HubSpot, like

27:46 Very low key. And he's like, How are you using AI? And I'm like, Well I made a Chrome plugin that helps you select like which jeans fit you if you go to a store if you like jeans. John, look at my ass right now. Yeah. Fit like they were fitted by AGI. Three cities don't have water right now. These pants fit so well. I was like, How about you?

28:11 What are you doing? And he like starts explaining some stuff. And it's kinda blowing my mind. And I'm like, Wait. Who are you? And he says his name, but he doesn't really say what he does. And the guy runs maybe one of the most, if not like the top three, like financial services business in the world. And he's

28:29 extremely multi billionaire. And he's the founder of Extremely Multibillionaire. Extremely like He's so extreme and I th thought I after he I start talking to him like I recognize you. You have articles written about you, it's where it's like this mysterious billionaire. Say his name and then we'll bleep it. Okay, so he's the founder of Yes. Okay.

28:50 So one of the most like sophisticated financial services business arguably it potentially is the most one of the most profitable in its field, making like tens of billions in profits. That's almost an intimidating person to meet. It's almost like Have you ever Jip, you know, I used to have this old Dell laptop that when it really starts when you s when you opened up a few too many windows. the fan would kick on and it would start heating up. I feel like that dude's brain must just be like that. I'm I'm closer to a homeless guy in terms of like

29:20 accomplishments and brain power than I am to this guy. And It was so awesome. That this guy walked into this room, he was one of the most quiet guys. He probably talked the least. Before you describe his calves and stuff, what did he say about AI? You said he was blowing your mind a little bit. What did he say? Uh, I have to be somewhat vague. He was saying he was just explaining like how they do it for like trading and like making financial decisions, but he frankly he was using he he clearly was trying to talk my level, but it was so hard without using like the jargon that he had to use.

29:49 But like at one point I was like, So is your company cool? Uh why is it cool? Uh he's like, Well I think we have a good culture. We pay really well and uh the office is nice and I look up how much they pay and it's like the highest paying thing in the world. Yeah. In the world. I think they have the most profit per employee or something. It has like crazy, crazy numbers like that. Did you say anything with AI that Surprised you, meaning like, Oh, I just did I didn't realize that was possible. Or I would have never thought to do that. As give me a little bit more if you can if you can. break off one more piece of bread. Well what he was he what he was explaining, he was like, you know, we actually have been doing this before like it became popular. We were doing it in this particular way and then all this new breakthrough technology came out, but it wasn't like a surprise to us'cause we've been tinkering with this stuff.

30:32 And basically he was like, It helps us make decisions like within fractions and fractions and fractions of seconds. Like he was using these time measurements that I didn't I I didn't even know what that word meant. And he was like he was like explaining like how they make decisions and how they use AI to make decisions. And um he was like, Yeah, like we've had data centers, we've had all of this stuff before. Now it's more accessible and it's easier because we but he's like we built all this stuff before. It was just like crazy that someone that is so epic And so world class at what they do.

31:04 They made me feel He made me feel better than him in a weird way. So he's a great actor, too, then. Triple threat. Well that's why they want to be insulting. I don't think he was acting. I I think that he like he made he just made me feel good. He had m true, true charisma then, and that He was genuinely interested in other people. Not

31:24 based off of like, you know, some weird power rankings and when you're interested in people, that makes them feel great. And that's a gift. That's a that's an amazing gift. I think It sounds so simple and very few people know how to do that. And I've noticed that with a bunch of really successful people. The ones that I truly like They are so curious. They are curious to the point where they will Uh think about silly ideas very seriously and take them seriously.

31:49 embarrassing like reduction the other day where I was like describing uh we went to an event or we host an event and was like, Oh, there's all these different people. I like this person. Oh, I really like this guy. That oh, she was really cool. And then I realized, Oh, what's the common factor is just like I think I like people who like me. And I was so embarrassed by that being true, but it was really like the

32:11 I have a very hard time liking people who I don't feel Like me? So the opposite is more true than the than the first part, meaning like I don't love everybody who likes me. But I can't really like anybody if I feel like they don't like me.

32:23 And I was I was like, what kind of junior high bullshit mindset is this? And I didn't know what to do with it, but I definitely had that uh awareness at least. And I was like, I think I should not Have that be the kind of the heaviest weight, you know, m uh factor in in this stuff. Do you do you ever do that? So it sounds so stupid, as I say it out loud. No, I mean I I don't think that's so stupid. I I think that Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People, he says the root of everything that you read for me is basically people want to feel important.

32:51 And if you understand that, then like life's cream cheese. Like life's good. And if you make people feel important, then then that is how you win friends and influence people. And what's funny is this guy and I We left the uh the the event together. And we mistakenly took like a service elevator. And so we get lost in this building. For like

33:10 Twenty five minutes like trying to get out because we took the wrong and we couldn't figure out the signs and I'm like Were you like come on genius get us out of here? I was like How many billionaires does it take to find the exit? Uh and Superman turn on the laser. And and then at the end I was like I I know that like no one can find photos of you on the internet. I know that you purposely stay off the grid, but uh You know, like Wanna come on my first million. And he like and he even dignified it with a I'll consider it.

33:39 There wasn't even like a like Are you insane? No, I I won't do this. And I just think that like to all the up and coming up and comers listening. Like Quentin. Be humble and be nice and make people feel important. It that is like kind of a key to life. Well, we we should tweak that, right? Because the the make people feel important sounds of manipulative. What's the real what's the way to do that that's actually real? I would say Be curious.

34:03 If you're genuinely curious or interested in in people, curiosity's like one of these um You know like those like grandma's remedies? Where it's like oh I have uh pneumonia and it's like put some whiskey in the pancakes and that'll do it. It's like what that doesn't make any sense and then it like works. It's curiosity's kinda like that. We're almost

34:20 All these unrelated Problems can be solved with curiosity. I'll give you an example. Um one is w one is what we're talking about here, which is When you're when you're actually curious about somebody, you will appear interested in them because you are interested in them and then they feel interesting and they feel like you took it you know, because you take an interest in them, they um feel an affinity towards you. Great. That's one.

34:42 So a lot of times I I'll talk to my my trainer, my coach. And um let's say I'm feeling bad about something. What most people try to do is they say, Don't feel bad. Feel good, it's okay. And like don't feel bad is pretty Poor advice when you're feeling bad about something.

35:00 And instead he just says like don't feel about just get curious. And he's like just g lean into it like Get curious about it. What is that? Why do you feel that way? You know, um, has that ever happened before? And as soon as you start getting curious, it's almost like The cloud moves away, the sun starts to peer through, and cause your brain literally shifts state into a into a more childlike, curious state of mind. And it takes the edge off. It takes the guilt or the shame or the the the self-loathing off of whatever it is you're doing. It's just so weird. You wouldn't expect curiosity to be a cure for for some some of these moments of these moods, but it is. It tends to be. And so just getting curious about something, I would say is like it's kind of like a catch all. Um you know.

35:39 Cure for for for things. And what's funny is like I was a pretty awkward teenager. I would say I'm still a pretty awkward guy. Uh, and I like went and like read books on like good questions to ask people to like have a conversation. And I even follow these guys on Instagram how to do it. But the best people I found was that show on the spectrum. The dating show with autistic kids.

35:59 And I stole so many questions that I ask people. So if I'm like at like a dinner party or I'm talking to people. I will always say, What are your hobbies? Yeah, like it sounds like such a childish thing. You get the best answers. And then I also say um Wh what do your parents think of of what you've done? Or I ask a lot about their parents and like they start opening up But like I had to like learn how to like have small talk. Everybody needs to, I think. Okay, I like that. That's a cool that's a cool story.

36:29 Today's podcast is brought to you by my friends at Mercury. Uh they make the world's best banking product. I think you know this already. I use Mercury for all of my businesses. I think I have like maybe seven or eight businesses. We use Mercury as our business banking across all of them. And now they actually just launched a personal banking account. So I have my personal account there. I moved off of Wells Fargo and Chase. I'm just all in on Mercury. Why uh I like products that are easy to use. I like products that get me and the problems that I have. So like very easy to make a joint account with my wife, very easy to spin up virtual cards.

36:58 Uh one click and I get savings yield. It's just has all the stuff that I need in one place. So If you're looking for the best banking product on the market, it's definitely Mercury. I will fist bite anybody who disagrees with me on that. Go to Mercury.com/slash personal and learn more. Mercury is a fintech, not an FDIC insured bank. Banking services are provided through Choice Financial Group and column NA, members FDIC. All right, I could talk to you let me talk to you about something. Um

37:23 Mm. It's gonna sound sad and it is sad, but I think it's like really interesting. And uh I I had permission to talk about this, but I think it's cool. So you and I had a producer named Ben Wilson. Ben Wilson uh was our producer for My First Million for a long time. And he now has a podcast called How to Take Over the World. Uh he's got four kids under the age of five years old. It's crazy. And six weeks ago he found out that he has stage four lung cancer.

37:51 Uh where The odds are not in his favor, but he's got like the best doctors in the world. So like some crazy things might happen and he's very optimistic. But I went and met with him yesterday. He he's in New York to see a doctor. And I wanted to talk about my experience, getting to like like talk to him. 'Cause this is like a very like interesting predicament that he's in. Think about this. Six weeks ago he found this out. So in the six weeks

38:14 He moved his house, he sold his home and got a new home closer to the doctor where that he's going. Uh, he did like a four hundred thousand dollar fundraiser, which was amazing. He like got his will and all of his estate stuff together and he's gone to like All these um Like doctor's appointments, like so many of them. And I remember like talking to him yesterday and I was like, dude, you've gone through so much. Like this is so heavy.

38:37 And I and he was telling me a little bit about it. And I My initial reaction when I heard all of this I felt like extreme sadness, partially because Ben's a Mormon. So Ben has lung cancer and it's in his spine and his brain. But started as lung cancer and he has never smoked, he has never drank, he has really never done anything bad in his life. Uh And I felt like

38:57 I felt like uh like we have an agreement with the universe where we put good in and we should get good out. And I was like This agreement has been broken. And I felt like pretty like pissed about it. Uh Yeah, I I felt very angry.

39:11 But then like I started like seeing how he was reacting to all this stuff. And like I would put myself in that shoes, I'm like, all right, six weeks ago In June, I find out that I have this illness, like how do I react? And I was like, I would be I would go insane. I I would be so sad. I'd be so depressed. It was just like crazy how calm he was. And what's interesting is that Ben has a podcast called How to Take Over the World, which is about like how great leaders become great.

39:35 And I was thinking about that. And he had this uh journal with him. And it was on the title of this journal was Zero To three hundred and sixty five. I was like, What's this? He was like

39:47 I have a journal where I'm gonna document every single day and my goal is to fill this whole thing out. It may not happen. But I'm gonna work my hardest to fill this out and make it three hundred and sixty five days and I pray that there's a sequel to this journal so my kids can like read this. But If I can't do it and I meet my makers sooner than I intend to or I want to I'm gonna be really excited about it.

40:08 And I remember like thinking like I listen to his podcast all the time on like how to be great. And I listen to all these podcasts on how to be great. We just did one on like how to be great. And I was thinking, I was like What's crazy is how much dignity and integrity and bravery

40:24 This guy is facing us. And I was like, me or you, or hopefully and everyone listening, the odds are that none of us will s face like a tragedy like this. But I was thinking I was like in my day to day life, like I react to things Sometimes in such a horrible way, like so negatively And uh so like

40:42 Not being positive or I'm letting little things bother me or little things distract me from what's important. But I was like, I really should change that because I hope I never face anything like he's facing. But what I've noticed in knowing Ben for a few years is he's always been like a pretty stoic, brave person. And I'm like

41:00 Things that I face every single day. They can prepare me for something horrible. And I hope that horrible thing never happens. And if it does it, at least I will have like responded to like my day to day life in a way that a great man would. Because what's interesting is like seeing him like

41:16 journal about this and he was like, Show me a little of the journal In my head, I was like, I'm seeing like a great man be great in real time and respond to like the worst thing on earth. In the most Dignified wise and like the best way I've ever seen.

41:30 And it inspired me so much. And I was just like, what good can I take from this? How can I be great, even if I don't face like a tragedy or like if I just live a boring life, like how can I be great on a day to day basis? Wow. Yeah. That's a great I mean I'm uh that's a great way of putting it. Um

41:47 The first is You know If you haven't listened already, go listen to his podcast where he announced it. I mean I

41:56 I listened to that. I probably listened to that. Two or three times. I listened the first time myself I listened a second time when my mom was in the car'cause I wanted her to hear 'Cause I just thought his entire attitude towards the situation, towards what is you know A very devastating sort of

42:13 Piece. And he kinda had Such a different perspective. It made me think a couple of things. The first was Man.

42:28 Um I haven't been a religious person. In my life. And

42:35 I think it's'cause the way my you know, just my my logical brain is sort of like Well, I don't know. There's no evidence. You know, like they it's like literally like The definition of like Faith is kind of like believing without evidence and I've always respected religion, but I've never felt it.

42:52 But when I saw his respons. And the way he was like, you know, I'm excited to meet my maker. And if you know, if God's calling me, then that's you know, his the the way it was serving him. I was like, wow, this is the This is the the these are the rewards for living with like so strong faith is that even when the worst

43:12 News hits. Even when and when anybody else would feel, you know, sorry for themselves. Um Yeah, he f he took it very, very differently and it was like such a foundational thing for him. So I thought he said excited.

43:25 He told me and I think he said in the paya he goes, I'm he goes, I can be excited about this. And I thought that was like Yeah, that's unbelievable. So good unbelievable. Um, so I thought that was the first thing was like really highlighted like the virtue and the value of like being a person of faith and how like you know I've

43:40 In my own life. I've had the luxury of not having to have that. 'Cause life goes pretty well without it for me, right? Like without having to To have faith in in certain things. Um so I thought that was that that really stood out. The second was

43:53 I think you dailed it. The difference you know, his podcast is about Napoleon and Caesar and These complicated men who achieved, who conquered. I think you know, it's how to take over the world. It's about conquerors. It's about the the the world shapers. And there's a big difference between achieving greatness and being great. What Ben is doing right now.

44:13 Is greatness, but it's being great, not achieving something. And it's a huge difference, and I think For myself and most people, we don't really split out. And it it's very easy to set goals and

44:26 You know, I remember being young and being like I wanna be Forbes thirty under thirty was before it became like, you know, the FBI watch list. But I I remember thinking like that would be a great achievement. I want to have a million dollars in my bank account, I wanna have this, I wanna have that when I was n nineteen, twenty years old. And it's like it was all about achieving. And the two people we've talked about, Ramon and Ben

44:45 They're great examples of being great. Living day to day in a great way. He's really show his greatness, uh you know in in the hardest time, which is when when it when it When it matters, when it counts, when it's real. And then yeah, like you know I just hope that

45:01 There's something, you know, in the maybe the age of AI, maybe there's some Some way that you know, with the best doctors, with the tech, with the belief, with everything that um you know, he does all right. So Yeah, and he's he's he's um He um he like the Brian Johnsons and Andrew Huberman's of the world, like they like opened up the Rolodex and they put him in touch with all these people and he's doing all this like the traditional stuff and some experimental stuff. And uh yesterday he was like I feel

45:25 really good. I feel better than I have in a long time. Yeah. So um Uh it's looking good. But I the reason why I wanted to bring this up on my first million Because I don't think we say this uh this explicitly enough, but we have said it before. Which is We talk about like being rich here, and we try to say a rich life.

45:45 And we try hard to like let people know That this isn't just about money. It's just that it's it's about l defining what life is um worth living and how it how it can be rich for you. And I just want to reiterate that like the million in my first million doesn't necessarily mean dollars, but it means like

46:06 the first like unit of richness that you can have in your life. And so That's sort of my public s service announcement, but also like some of the things that I've learned in talking with him. Mm-hmm. Well I I'm glad you shared that. Uh Ben, we're rooting for you, man. Uh Yeah. He's part of the he's part of the MFM family. He was what he was our producer for what, like a yeah, a year or two, something like that. Yeah. He had his podcast and we met. We met through you had you put me onto his podcast. You were like, dude, I've been listening to this thing, it's amazing. Then I remember going to the airport.

46:36 And I was listening to his Edison episode. And it's a three parter. And I Drove to the airport, listened to part one. Drove back, listen to part two.

46:47 And then I just went for an extra drive to listen to part three. And I was like, Wow, this is amazing. And I called him and I was like, dude, who are you? What's your story? And then we brought him in. He became our producer, which helped him pay the bills while he was getting his podcast kind of like more and more off the ground. Then It was time for him to kind of like focus on his body. We wished him well and Yeah, still wishing him well. So, Ben, get get well, man. We uh we're all rooting for you. Yes. It was a very the I hope listener, I hope you don't take this as sad and uh I'm sure Ben's gonna hear this, but it was This sh I I I I wanna leave on a on a on a inspirational note, not not sadness. So I hope you guys dug it.

47:22 And uh well and there. That's it. That's the pot. I feel like I can rule the world on nowhere But I want to I'm putting my all in it like So on the road less travel, never looking back

47:35 All right, let's take a quick break. I want to tell you about marketing school. It is a podcast that is part of the HubSpot Podcast Network, and it is run by Neil Battel and Eric Sue. And these guys are both marketers who are running businesses. And so if you want real world tactics from practitioners who are actually out there in the field doing it, this is the podcast for you. Check it out wherever you get your podcast.

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