Dr. Gio Valiante (Part 2): Failure and Success

0:00 So at the end of the day, what I'm always telling people. Both matter. Like you can be intrinsically motivated and like the praise and the recognition, but the order has to be love of craft and then like it has to be you have to love what you're doing and then enjoy the things that come with it because when the order flips uh invariably it's uh it's gonna be a problem. Welcome to the Knowledge Project, a podcast about mastering the best of what other people have already figured out, so you can apply their insights.

0:46 To your life. I'm your host, Shane Parish. Every Sunday I send out the Brain Fowsletter to over six hundred thousand people. It's considered noise-canceling headphones for the internet, and it's full of timeless wisdom you can apply to life and work. You can sign up for free at fs.blog slash newsletter.

1:06 If you're listening to this, you're missing out. If you'd like access to the podcast before public release, special episodes that don't appear anywhere else, hand edited transcripts, or you just want to support the show you love, you can join at fs.blog slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link. This is the second of a special two part episode of the Knowledge Project featuring performance psychologist Dr. Gio Valiant.

1:33 If you haven't listened already, go back and check out the first portion of our interview in episode one seventy nine, either at the Furnham Street blog or wherever you usually listen to the Knowledge Project. Gio is regarded as one of the most successful performance coaches in the world, and he's worked exclusively with golfers on the PGA and LPGA tours, Olympic athletes, And leading figures in the NCAA football, NFL, where he served as the head performance coach of the Buffalo Bills. He's also logged more than 5,000 hours coaching some of the most sophisticated investors in the world, including billionaire hedge fund manager Steven Cohn. On this episode, we continue our conversation, beginning with his thoughts on failure. And the fear that holds us back from making the most of our talent. Gio also discusses the shift from an ego orientation to a mastery mindset.

2:22 Common misperceptions about success and failure are What we learn from success and how we learn when it's time to cut our losses and move on. to a different challenge. It's time. To listen?

2:36 And learn. The direction I want to go after that It's sort of in failure.

2:50 I mean, often the reason we don't try things is'cause we don't want to fail. So we don't build these muscles because we're not failing. What happens when fear sort of like takes hold of us? Like what does the world look like? How is it different? And How does it shape What we're about to do and how do we get out of that?

3:08 Great question. Yeah, because one of the things that we know is people think of success and failure as opposite things, right? That the more I succeed, the less I failure. I fail. But that's really sort of a modern conception of success and failure. The the fact of the matter is Failure is woven into the fabric of success. It's not how do you avoid failure. That's that's the wrong question. The right question is How do I fail or how should I fail? In ways

3:34 that lead to the type of skill development and belief system that allow me to succeed long term. So it's how do we fail? Like in snow skiing, you want to teach kids how to fall. So they don't get injured. Um you want to teach students how to keep trying and pushing themselves as hard as they can.

3:50 And the question is what did they do with the failure? Now here's where it gets fascinating. If you want to anticipate how someone is gonna react to failure. You shouldn't address or attack. How they react to failure. What you should actually do

4:06 is try to go on a time machine and go back to the beginning. And you ask them. Why do you do what you do? This is this is if you were to ask me To to to to pull out some of the most

4:20 the the the greatest insights to come out of psychology, this would absolutely be one of them. It's it's it's research I want to call achievement goals. Achievement goals explore the why, the human why. Why do you do what you do? What you uh after you know you ask a thousand people this question, huge data sets. What you come to find is these thousands of people all of a sudden they tend to bucket. into one of one of two categories. It's either a mastery orientation or an ego orientation and these two different orientations

4:50 as to why people do what they do tend to be very predictive Of ultimate success. And here's why. So a mastery orientation. Here's the answer people with a mastery orientation typically give. Why do I do what I do? Well I'm curious about it. It's I do it because I I I love the I'm intrinsically motivated. I love to solve the problems. I love

5:11 the work of the practice. I find it You know, inherently interesting. Like I think about it all the time. This is what I was talking about earlier, earlier about the blending of vocation and avocation. You know, go back to the why. So what you'll often see in the game of golf. Even happens with students in school, right? It's w you know, why do kids love to learn? Because learning is fun.

5:33 Why do kids, you know, go on the golf course want to play until the sun has set? And they're out there all night because it's an amazing sport. It's super fun. It's it's it's it's just a fascinating get lost in the in the game. So at what point in in educational development do kids You know, start to dislike school. Happens around third grade. What happens in third grade? We start giving kids grades.

5:55 So what happens is there's a shift. From a a mastery orientation to what's called an ego orientation. The ego orientation When you ask people with an ego orientation, hey, why do you do what you do? What you'll often see is, well, I like to beat other people. I want to prove something. I need to prove myself to other people. Or it's some version of image management. Like you're trying to show, show off. and and prove yourself to other people, right? So imagine

6:21 Yeah, Shane, g g give me a domain of functioning or or or an arena or an area that's interesting to you. So so so give me any uh arena or domain. Business. Business is a great example. Certain people go into business'cause they want to make a lot of money. Like it's just it. They I mean I want to make a lot of money. So that's their driving force.

6:40 Other people go into business um and they find that business is fascinating, certain components of business, motivation, you know, business management, organizing people, innovation. um product innovation, research and development. What happens is When when you get lost in the in in in in The problem solving of it all, like the Steve Jobs.

7:01 And and and What it leads to is deeper cognitive processing, more creative problem solving. But here's the key thing. The key thing. When mastery oriented individuals fail The reaction is curiosity.

7:19 It's it's what it's what um um Thomas Edison said. You know, when asked, hey, you know, what was it like to fail a thousand times, he said he was he was reported as saying The light bulb was not an invention with a thousand failures. It was an invention that simply required a thousand steps. You know, Tiger Woods, when when you watch the way he handles career and his approach to it.

7:42 It was a purely mastery oriented uh mindset. It was you know get a little bit better every day, like make better mistakes. Ingrid und Indeed präsentieren Jobs, bei denen man sich keinen Fehler erlauben darf. Heute Heizungsmontöin. Die Heizung macht seit heute Morgen komische Geräusche. Entschuldigen Sie, das ist ein geiler Beat. Die Rohre platzen gleich! Und jetzt der Drop. Das ist ein Job für Sponsored Jobs.

8:07 Mit richtigen Profis wäre das nicht passiert. Vertrau in Grit, versuch Indeed und finde qualifizierte Talente mit Sponsored Jobs. Mach's dir Indeed einfach. Jetzt auf indeed.de slash recruiting. Conversely, what you see out of an ego oriented individual in business is when they fail.

8:27 They feel embarrassment. Now I now just I want you to pause here for a minute. Two individuals. Everything else being equal, same education, same ability, Um, same training, same everything. One of them goes at their craft or at their domain or at their career.

8:44 from a place of I I I love to learn I love to problem solve. I I go into depth with these things and and I largely do it I don't really I'm not engaged in image management. The second individual goes in Competing against other people.

9:00 Caring about over caring about what people think, success is only defined by that which is palpable or tangible, like they're playing for trophies. Then you fail because if you're if you're living you're trying to get at the tail end of the curve, you're gonna fail. And you react with embarrassment. When we talk about the toxic emotions, embarrassment is is depends on the person, but it's one of the two most painful psychological experiences a person can have.

9:27 Humiliation is second only behind grief. The type of grief that comes when you lose a loved one, when you lose a child, which is like a throw switch in the brain, which shuts everything down. The the biological mechanisms in the brain from like when a parent loses a child are so strong that you're just you shut down and you're not going to think your way out of it. Like it's unbelievable. Right behind that is humiliation. And so what happens is when people feel embarrassed

9:55 Their their their brain starts cre uh send signals where they create cortisol stress. Uh epinephrine. Adrenaline. nor epinephrine their perceptions change so rather so when you're embarrassed Rather than than see opportunity, all you see is threat.

10:12 Right. So all of a sudden there's a there's a distortion of reality. And so all of a sudden, when all you see is threat, you stop taking risks. Now it becomes some version of avoiding the pain. That comes from embarrassment. So like all of a sudden, why is everyone walking around underperforming relative to their ability. Largely it's because people live their lives trying to avoid embarrassment. Now why is that? Because they approach life from an ego orientation. Imagine if Shane if every time You failed, big or small. I were to come up and

10:43 smack you on the hand. Well, the brain is going to process that as pain. And the part of the brain, the amygdala, that processes pleasure and pain. It doesn't distinguish whether it's physical pain or psychological pain. It's just pleasure pain. So now the brain equates failure with pain. Well, all of a sudden the brain then anticipates the next time you're in a risk taking situation, or you're going to put your ideas into the arena of a merit of a meritocracy of your company, or like you think you can help. But if every time that happens,

11:14 someone makes you feel embarrassed. Or gosh, even if they don't make you feel embarrassed, you make yourself feel embarrassed because the reason you're doing it. is is you want people to like you. You're gonna run away from that feeling and all of a sudden You're you're on this time equation And the wash, rinse, repeat of your life is essentially avoiding embarrassment. So you're taking no risks, and 20 years goes by like that.

11:38 And you look back and you're like, Where did the time go? And everyone else is wondering, boy I really thought that that person, you know, could have been better. And you're like, you know what? I thought I could have been better. And it happens at such an unconscious level. that that people are unaware of it. And it's even true in acting. And it's even true in sports like golf, where you know actors they have to make an impression on the audience, but if you talk to the best,

12:03 They're not doing it. Um uh to impress other people. They're doing it for the moment. They're doing it for the performance. They're doing it for the psychological freedom. That comes with the delivery. And so the number one agreement I have with anyone who ever wants to work with me is is I tell them is you have to promise me that you're gonna take embarrassment out of the equation because I can't make you great

12:25 if you're willing to react with embarrassment,'cause the brain will anticipate embarrassment. It'll put you into a psychological strait jacket that will forever restrict. Your ability to have creative problem solving, to have deep cognitive processing, it affects memory, it affects all the things that lead to success. Is that why even elite athletes

12:46 uh often don't Practice. Especially in team sports, things they're bad at because they don't want their teammates to see them failing and they're embarrassed. Happens all the time. I have a an NBA player who in practice would shoot

13:00 Call it like eighty five percent from the free throw line. And in games would shoot somewhere, you know, in the fifty percent range. And it was all because He cared what people thought of him, you know, in sports we call it having rabbit ears, you know, it's impression management. And this often happens in Hollywood where people start to believe their own press. Um and and there's actually a psychological shift that happens, believe it or not, because People get great at these things because of the mastro, because they love them. But all it takes is a few iterations of people telling you you're great, or I give you money. In fact, there's a great book called Born to Run, which talks about what happens.

13:38 If you look at what happened to the record times in marathoning. Is when Nike entered the equation and started rewarding runners With contracts. The speeds went down. 'Cause people stopped love they stopped running

13:52 for the love of the craft, and they started running for the incentive, for the reward itself. And what is known is that incentives uh are demotivating. They undermine The intrinsic motivation that lead to greatness. There's this great little parable where there's an old man with a garden. And and and and one day he wakes up and his garden is torn to bits and he doesn't know why.

14:16 And so a week later he you know, he puts his garden back together. A week later he goes his garden goes out and the garden's torn up again. He doesn't know what's happening. So on a Saturday wakes up early and he goes out and he learns that the neighborhood kids were playing football and they're the the they were running right through his garden. And and so he said, Wow, what am I gonna do here? One day he called the kids over Say kids come here. He goes, Everyone come here.

14:38 I'm so thankful. They're using my yard to play in. He goes, It gives me great joy to give you such great joy. He said, Everyone, I want you to come over here. And the kids did. And he gave all of them five dollars. So here's five dollars. Um that's how thankful I am. And the kids said, Thanks, Mr. And they went back to the game. And the next week the kids played their football and they came and the old man gave them five dollars. And after a couple of months, Kids played their football and they rushed through the game and they came and they said

15:04 Where's a where's our five dollars? He said, Oh, I'm sorry, kids,'cause I don't I don't have any more money to give you. He goes, but you're welcome to play. As much as you want. And as the parable goes, of course, that was the end of football. that the kids stopped playing because what happened is the shift. They started out playing because it was fun and eventually you're playing for the money. And there's some version of that in everywhere in life, whether it's praise, Whether it's the approval of other people, whether it's the need for glory, or whether it's money, when you do a thing.

15:33 Only for the outcome. And you lose the love of the craft, the love of the game, you're not going to be any good at it. So at the end of the day, what I'm always telling people, Both matter. Like you can be intrinsically motivated and like the praise and the recognition, but the order has to be love of craft and then like it has to be you have to love what you're doing and then enjoy the things that come with it because when the order flips uh invariably it's uh it's gonna be a problem.

16:01 And so this shift from mastery to ego is a real thing, and it's a real problem for professional athletes. unless they figure it out and they shift back to the mastery orientation. Um, and they're willing to kick embarrassment, you know, out of the equation, you know, for good. How do we shift? from a ego orientation to a mastery orientation. Can we just think our way into this?

16:24 The answer is it depends. Some can and some can't. For the ones who can I've had dramatic results both uh in the markets, you know, with with with with portfolio managers in the hedge fund world. Uh and with with professional athletes. And it begins with the why. And I always start uh by asking someone when they come and see me for for the first time, tell me, tell me why you do what you do. And I look and they they write it all and and go deeper. I say keep going

16:51 And then I say, okay, well, let's look at your reasons. And then you lay it out and you map it out. And you say, okay, well, here's the danger. Here's the reality, by the way. You can be or ego oriented and be successful. Uh it's happened in the NBA a lot, but here's the thing. The only way To be ego oriented and be successful. Is you better never lose your confidence.

17:11 'Cause what we know is confidence is a variable. Sometimes we're more confident than others. If you're ego oriented and you lose your confidence, that's where the embarrassment comes into play. That's where you're screwed. So that's why athletes often surround themselves like entouragees. Essentially what they're saying is, you know, keep telling me how great I am because confidence is so important. um that I need it. So that's that's the only way to win. within an ego orientation. But generally speaking, what I'm trying to do is shift people back to a mastery orientation. And so you lay out the characteristics of a mastery orientation.

17:41 And it determines how you practice and and it determines the most important thing that you do, believe it or not. Is you help people correct the reactions. To failure. and who they listen to. So one of the characteristics of an ego orientation is you care what people think about you. And like who is they? Like that's the thing. It's like I'm wondering I worry about what they're gonna think. Who's that?

18:03 What you read is it you realize most people are walking around Essentially it's what we call in psychiatrists called a personal fable. that they, you know, we are all the stars of of you know, it's Shakespeare, life is a stage, you know, yeah. Like but most people are the actors in their own play, but we over index for how much people care about, you know, about us. Like we think that people are thinking about us all the time. And we want to make it a good impression on them. And it could be the media. It could be the writers and reporters, it could be the critics, it could be your your friends, it could be the the the the crowds. Mostly in business, it's management.

18:35 It's like I care what what my managers think of me, what what my boss thinks. People don't pay too much attention to forming opinions of other people. It tends to be just a quick reaction that they're careless about and they care even less about the words they use. And so when you go around life caring too much what people think about you, and you actually like internalize and you let it affect your decision making, it's a recipe for For just a bad life with no happiness. So what I'll say is let's pick Three people. Maybe four.

19:03 Who you're gonna give the power, who you're gonna actually listen to. Who you know love you and care about you, who are accurate observers and who will tell you the truth. And if you're willing to solicit the truth from those people in your circle, in your community, You have to use people as your mirror. So you need feedback from people. You just have to be intentional.

19:25 about who those people are, who are going to be your mirrors. And in fact, that's one of the key predictors of success are Both for kids and adults, it's you know, who are you surrounding yourself by? Who will who are you using to populate your ego? I'm sorry, your your ecosystem. So what I'll do with people is we'll intentionally pick here's who you're willing to listen to. Okay, number one.

19:46 Number two, we're gonna pre-react. In other words, when you fail, how are you gonna react? Because what we know is the toxic emotions that kill us are a function of how we react. So if you fail, you can react one of five ways. Embarrassment. the type of pain that comes with embarrassment will flood the brain and flood the body with these with these chemicals that will ensure underperforms. Okay, well, second way to do with failure. Anger.

20:09 People fail and they just they rage and they get angry. Over the course of time, that's pain. So now you're also conditioning yourself for underperformance by reacting with anger too much. Third way to react. Acceptance.

20:22 I failed it, I accept it and move on. No harm, no foul. Then we start getting into the elevating of oceans. Humor. Now this is really hard for competitive minded people. to wrap their minds around, but if you can hit a bad shot in golf or if you can fail at some particular thing.

20:39 And your reaction is is you you accept it, but then you laugh. You're like, that was terrible. That it's like it was so bad, it's funny. And uh well, I did everything right in the process. You know, bad luck. And and you can find a way to infuse humor.

20:55 into your failure. One of the things that happens is your body doesn't react with the toxic emotions or toxic chemical epinephrine, norepinephrine, cortisol. And and it often leads to more joy and more abundance. I'll give a quick example. I had a golfer on the PGA tour who was over two hundred and ten. He had he had gone for like seven or eight years and never went on the P GA tour.

21:17 And so one of the things we start to do is replace his reactions. And so uh and I remember I'll never forget he said to me, he said, So what you're telling me is you want me to suck And enjoy it. I'll never forget the moment. The the the the first week, you know, he started accepting bad shots instead of beating himself up. And then you started to see more psychological freedom in his actually his cough swing. And then he came out and he won the second week. So seven years no wins, oh for two hundred and fifteen, and he won fifteen days later. And that's a function of the reaction.

21:47 And I'll never forget a moment he was playing badly and he was out on the golf course and I saw him and his caddy laughing. Cause this and one of the things we know in psychology is sense of humor is one of the greatest tells of of of psychological health and well being. One of the keys to psychological health is to be able to laugh at things that are funny. And that's one of the things the problems of the modern times are people have lost their sense of humor. And you know, Freud wrote about wit being critically important because life is so painful and so difficult, you have to find a way to find things funny if you're gonna survive in this world. And so the way we shift people back to mastery, Shane. is we get clarity on the why. So they're doing it for the right reasons.

22:25 We make sure that we're clear about how they're reacting to criticizing. whose opinions they care about. We make sure that life is not a vanity project. The reason that they're doing it is not to impress other people and then we're intentional about how they're reacting. So that life is not only a vanity project, it's also not an exercise in self abuse.

22:47 That they're accepting of their mistakes. forgiving of themselves in others. And then what you start to see Is there's more joy. In the work. There's more psychological freedom.

22:59 There's better risk taking. and ultimately better results. And as I explain it, I you can see it's just a causal chain. The way the dominoes fall and they end up on the scoreboard But it goes all the way back to the fundamental question of why do you do what you do? I love that answer and thank you for so much detail on that. I wanna sort of explore failure and success. We often

23:25 think that we can only learn from failure. We can fail ourselves, we can watch other people fail and we can learn from that. I wanna take a different approach to that question. What can we learn from success? Wow. Curve bomb me.

23:39 Well, let me let me tell you how performance psychology thinks of that. Number one, you have to define what success is. Like what do we mean by quote unquote success, right? Number one. Number two. On the one hand persistence and resilience and grit are critically important to succeed. In other words

23:56 powering through failure and and the the idea of keeping at something and And and working away. But here's the other Part of the equation no one wants to talk about. A lot of winning is knowing when to quit. It's knowing when to get out of a bad bet, knowing when not to beat your head over a wall, like in poker, for example. It's knowing when to fold, it's in in the markets, knowing a bad trade and take and cutting your losses. Yeah, because what happens is you see uh the tail end of the curve

24:23 Most people at the tail end of the curve have a puritanical work ethic and that their answer their whole lives Has always been, yeah, I'm not winning, just work hard. You see this with kids in high school. They outwork everyone, they get to college, they outwork everyone. But if you go to the tail end of the curve, And you take all these people and then you lay them on a distribution. What you come to realize they're all they all work hard. And they're all persistent. So then where's the advantage? If you commoditize effort and and resilience and persistence along with talentless other things,

24:54 Then where's the advantage? Well the advantage then Is knowing Believe it or not, like Like how to take breaks, how to rest. Where are the places that you think you're best? You know, it's it's it's it's you know, if you look at

25:08 uh of Harold Bloom's it's called the um taxonomy of higher order thinking. At the tippity top of it, it's it's it's you know, there's knowledge, there's knowing things. And right above knowledge, the next sophisticated level of learning is called comprehension. It's to understand what you know. And then above comprehension is what's called application. It's like okay, uh here's what I know and I understand. I can apply it to my life in real ways. We we know this in school. Sometimes kids will be great test takers, but like they don't apply it in their real life. So what are they really learning? Then above application is analysis. Analysis to be able to break a problem apart into its finite components. And then above that is what's called synthesis, the ability to recombine it and put it back together, right? So knowledge, comprehension.

25:52 Application, analysis, synthesis, but at the tipity top of the pyramid is Judgment. That's why our legal system judges It's the ability to infuse and integrate knowledge, comprehension, application, analysis, and synthesis. And ultimately make

26:08 Good decisions, right? What what we call inferential intelligence, to be a good decision maker. I remember one time A few years ago, I was up in Buffalo, New York, meeting with a guy named Sean McDermott, which the head coach of the Buffalo Bills. Sean McDermott is an Unbelievable human being. He was 70 and oh as a high school wrestler. Like, do you know how hard it is to be a 70 oh at anything?

26:31 So to be seventy and oh In high school wrestling, I think in Pennsylvania, which is like one of the most competitive places in the world for wrestling. And he ends up becoming a you know an incredibly good uh high s uh NFL coach. under consideration for coach of the year. He helped break a seventeen year playoff slump for the Buffalo Bills.

26:51 They're now in the playoffs seven years in a row. This is Sean McDermott. Sweeney I was up from Buffalo, meeting with Sean. After Buffalo, I flew to Dallas, Texas. Spent two days with a guy named Jordan Speith. Jordan Speith is gonna be a Hall of Fame golfer. He's already got the record, just no matter when they induct him.

27:06 And I flew from there. To Greenwich, Connecticut, or Stanford, Connecticut. I spent two days with a guy named Steve Call. Who's hedge fund manager. Who's now the owner of the Mets, who's known in the world, this just, you know, there's a great article, you know, Steve Cohen always wins.

27:20 wins in the markets, he wins in the art world, he wins in just a winner. His horse won the Kentucky Derby. He's just a brilliant guy. And I remember walking with Steve after these other days, and I'll never forget this, she I said. Oh my God. This is the same conversation I just had.

27:38 At the tail end of the curve. successful people Are generally having the same conversations, different Parlance, different language. You know, you know you have to know different things in the markets versus engineering versus academia versus a particular sport. So there is domain expertise.

27:58 But the human beings you take away the domain expertise. What you come to realize It's the consistent application of the basic principles. It's it's Aristotelian in nature. If you want to if you wanna aggregate every success book ever written, Go read Nic uh Aristotle's Nicomachian Ethics, like There's not a whole lot happening.

28:20 that that Aristotle, you know, didn't already write about Nicomachian ethics. You see number one, believe it or not, is humility. The best in the world. readily acknowledge that they don't know. Now, I'm not saying so they're humble, but there's also a little arrogance, right? There's conviction, there's belief that that what I'm doing is right. I believe in my path, but underneath that.

28:42 is this humility um and the recognition that that they don't know Which is why the second step, it's a never ending series of problem solving and testing and risk taking. So they're willing to try a bunch of different things until they get it right, which is oh, by the way Why they're mastery oriented because they know they're gonna fail, but they refuse to they refuse to re react to failure with embarrassment. They react to failure like Thomas Edison with more. Curiosity. Elon Musk is a perfect example of that in bodies. Tiger Woods was a perfect how many times did Tiger Woods change his golf swing and

29:19 Every expert was saying you should never do this. You have the greatest golf swing in the history of the game, but it was this it was governed by this idea of Kaizen, which is continual improvement every day, willing to fail. And so you're constantly evolving. Jack Nicholas, by the way, was exactly the same way. Ben Hogan was the same way. So anyway, so what you see is humility. You see the ability to you're you're you're an example of this, Shane. I mean, look at what you've built. You're putting yourself out there. uh to test ideas you're vulnerable in taking risk.

29:51 Every day that people are gonna criticize you. And like That takes courage, right? You know, Peter Buck, the guitarist of REM, played a whole album on a mandolin, you know, in the first take. You know, RM could have been to keep keep making the same music and just print a lot of money, but like no. So the next thing you see and William James talked about this. He talked about having a bit of a vision.

30:12 And this is the beautiful thing about being a snowflake about humanity is none of us are the same. Like every one of us is differentiated in a particular way. And so the ability, you know, in golf we say the ability to play the shot that you see, to build what you see, to trust your own vision, your own eye. Again, Elon Musk is I think a a really great modern living example of that. Is you know, the things he's doing are the things that he set out to do a long time ago. And like and he's he's being additive to humanity in countless ways. And you see this with with really with great leaders. I think Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi.

30:50 you know the ability uh to to lead people In a manner that is not like the Machiavellian view of politics. You know, politics can be a nasty business. But to stand out there and put your ideas out there and to preach love and and and to preach non-resistance and to live it. Like what a contribution to humanity. I think it like, believe it or not, in the world of Pop or like Taylor Swift, don't underestimate the power of these global influencers and the impact, you know, the brain has these things called mirror neurons that fire when we watch people do something. And so you've got a world of young women looking at these female role models

31:30 And so the mirror neurons that fire that we're all a little bit monkey see monkey do. So what do the best of the best do? They're really intentional about what they look at. They control their focus and and sort of who they put in their world. So that the mirrors and the feedback they get is accountable, they'll they'll say things like, Hey, listen, I want you to hold me accountable. Uh uh for what I do. Work ethic.

31:55 uh is unequivocal. They always feel in a rush. You know, Elon's Elon Musk's father said about him, like, yeah, he's behind on his timelines. You know, he's still behind. And so what you'll see is is the best of the best are always working. at a feverish cadence like they're always trying to play catch up, but again If you ask them They're not workaholics. You see it with people in the kitchen, the culinary arts, you see it with musicians, you see with people who love to do landscaping.

32:24 You know, at the height of the human condition are what are called flow states, and flow states are when we get in the zone. And so, you know, flow states are governed by you see with the the the loss of time that hours pass by and you're like, oh my God, where did time go? Um it's the transformation of time, there's an effortlessness to it. Um hard things sometimes feel easy. And what you realize is is flow states are the hallmark of of people who are great at what they do. They get lost in what they do.

32:54 And so if you're listening to this, you should ask yourself, what do I do? where I lose track at times reading a book. Is it being in conversation? Is it a dinner party? Is it time with my children? Is it swimming? And whatever that thing is, so long as it's healthy, and so long as you're not saying, well, it's you know, doing heroin or meth, right? If you're doing something healthy. And it's characterized by by a feeling of elation, and and you lose track of time and it's effortless.

33:23 Do more of it. That's what you can learn from success. And the one final thing I'll say. is the the the asterisk next to it is it's really hard to let all those things, you know, humility, curiosity, work ethic you know, surrounding yourself by great people, taking risks.

33:43 It's hard. To create a world For yourself. Where those things get fertilized. If you're populating yourself with people

33:54 F judge you and criticize you and who who um are who suppress Your psychological freedom. Um who who make you feel self-conscious. and and or who are in your life headwinds.

34:11 You know, I've watched athletes who go home. men and women and you marry the wrong person and that person is not on board with the vision or or or at the very least they're they're Yeah, they don't have to be fully supportive. But when you when you marry someone or if you have a uh someone in a boss or Who's

34:34 Who get their satisfaction out of your failure or who can't feel happy with themselves unless you're failing. All the other things get relegated to insignificance. When there's a feature of your life typically in the form of a person, or an institutional headwind, where there's a bias against your success. Um that you don't reknize when you have a blind spot.

34:59 So you really have to change your aperture and go to thirty thousand feet and say, Okay, am I set up for success? Yeah. Then you ask the people you trust, hey, you know, how do how do I seem to you? Like audit your have other people audit you good. Okay, if that's the case. Throw yourself All in deep immersion in the thing you love to do, lose track of time. And and find the hardest problems there are and set out to solve them.

35:26 And then when you come out of the the flow state and you look up, you're like, Man That's the body of work I did. Phew, wow, it didn't feel like that. But the body of work, that's what's gonna stand the test of time. One thing that the bus seemed to be able to do, and I think we hit on this in that answer is two things stood out there. They know when to walk away.

35:47 They know when to fold it. They know when to You know, just okay, it's over, move on, next one. They're able to move on. But they also know when to push their advantage. And I'm thinking Tom Brady, right? He was the ultimate sort of quarterback who would take the check down, but he also knew when to push it down the field. How do we learn when to uh how do we learn to cultivate those skills in ourselves? How do we know when to push?

36:10 And how do we know when, you know what, this just isn't gonna Get us the outcome that we want. Best question I've been asked by an interview in an interviewer in my lifetime. Like that's An awesome question that nobody ever asked is the question.

36:26 for anyone who's trying to be successful, sustainably successful. When do you press? How do you know when to press both engines the the the paradox is there sometimes you gotta let it happen And sometimes you gotta make it happen. When people try to force Force a result when they shouldn't, like that's when when you get stopped out, and the opposite's also true. So how do you know when to oppress it again? So number one, I'll I'll say about Brady, don't forget.

36:51 A lot of failure early. And so what happens is when you fail your fail early, you start to recognize what a real opportunity looks like. And then, oh, by the way. When that opportunity um presents itself, there's a lot of fuel to make it happen. You're like, oh, like you should, you know, it's Mark Wahlberg and acting. It's like you're letting me into this club. Okay. There ain't no way I'm giving up my advantage. So it becomes this relentless Yeah, one of the things about Tiger Woods that's so remarkable is is

37:19 He's the only golfer, and I mean this. The history of the game. Who's ever played better with a lead? So even Jack Nicholas, who's arguably the best of all time, Jack said I was better if I was trailing because what happens is when you're when you're chasing

37:34 You know, you play with nothing to lose, you're able to be fearless. So so that's a real advantage is being the underdog. Tiger Woods is the only one who's the favorite every week and would start with a lead and and then extend that lead. blew the world away and and to this day it blows'cause how do you do that? How do you n like that's why greyhounds in in dog racing are always chasing a rabbit.

37:58 The psychological mechanism even in in in in running, you have somebody who's pacing you, right? Cause we know the brain works in ways we're having something to chase. Is the way to get the best out of yourself. Well, how did Tiger Woods do that? When he was in the lead, the one being chase. Well, he was playing against history. So even when he was leading the tournament, he was still trailing Jack Nicholas. So he benchmarked he would index his thinking to the fact that he hadn't

38:22 Caught uh Jack Michael. So he was in his mind always chasing. So it begs the question when you talk about judgment, is knowing When to pr what an advantage looks like. And when and how to press your advantage. And when patients uh when the situation calls to do nothing. And here's one way to assess it.

38:43 Evaluate your why. Because what happens is when people press an advantage incorrectly It's usually out of impatience. It's usually out of frustration that's happening right now in the markets. There's not a lot of volatility in the marketplace right now. And you're on the your mandate as an investor is to return 10%, right? You'd say that's your number. And you're only up five percent. And there's no way to make money in your strategy. All of a sudden, it's like, well, I've I've got to, I'm gonna press whatever advantage I have. Well, it's a low probability advantage, and but you're gonna force a little advantage, you're gonna make a mistake, and then you're gonna lose your job. So, number one is you have to question.

39:20 What's underneath the desire? So let's talk about desire for a minute, which we haven't talked about, which we need to talk about. If you look at the human condition. Look at all the major religious traditions. One of the universalities of the human condition is desire. And every school of thought has found a way to try to deal with it. So for example, if you look at Christian uh Catholicism, how does Catholicism deal with desire? Well, too much desire leads to um yeah, you'll you'll wreck your life and everyone else's, right? It can lead to real problems, the desire. So Catholics punish it with guilt.

39:51 What do the hedonists say? Hedonists say, Well, you know, if you want it, it's a good thing you satiate that desire. If you haven't it, scratch it. And we know that that leads to overindulgence to sloppy life, you know, typically a drug habit. And one way or the other, you know, you have sex if you're gonna have an addiction going to blow your life up if you're a hedonist. Buddhists and Hindus say Desire's the key thing that leads to suffering, right? So if I want this pen.

40:15 The moment that I want the thing that I can't have I feel a state of suffering. So all human suffering comes from desire. And so and so the way to happiness is to remove all desire to ex to get rid of all your worldly possessions. And to sit in observation of yourself and so happiness is to want nothing.

40:36 So the universality of the human condition is desire. But what we know Is that that desire is the thing that leads to all the cognitive biases. that that that almost all of the mistakes people make in life is a function that they want a particular outcome. They want a particular thing. The good of it. Is desire, as Ann Rand arch articulates, right? As as Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations, when he talks about free markets.

41:03 He says that that the desire leads to innovation. Innovation leads to to competition, which eventually leads to the best product in the market. Which is what elevates the human condition, and that's why proponents of capitalism and free markets. You can just see it in modern day. Like the world moves Because because individuals innovate and evolve, whether it's Bill Gates, Steve Jobs Jeff Bezos has created$800 billion of wealth for other people. You know, you see the way free markets work. They're a function of desire, and that's what Freud called sublimation.

41:36 If you sublimate and channel desire uh into evolution. It's what creates great works of art. Architecture, right? And Rand writes about this in in Fountainhead. So desire channeled properly can lead to some of the highest highs uh and the el of the best expression of the human condition. The problem is the downside of desire left unchecked,

41:58 leads to the kinds of behaviors that are duplicitous, that desire run amok We all become a worse version of ourselves. This happened at Tiger Woods. Like don't forget the same desire. That fueled arguably the greatest body of work in the history of sport. The fuel that burned inside him, you saw it come out in his celebrations.

42:20 There's a lot of want in there, but that's the same desire that That when it got channeled the wrong way that led to the bad decisions that you know led to the blew up his marriage that led to you know to him getting these injuries and harming himself And you he wouldn't stop practicing, so he'd get injured. He played the US Open on a broken leg. And one

42:43 And so you have to go back to the first order variable, which in his case is desire. To to to answer the question and and if you look at the causal chain, the way the dominoes fall in decision making, which is a cognitive act. Not an emotional one. You have to understand what are the the the the variables that have led to you wanting to push your advantage. And so essentially in modern day analytics, you're running probabilities. You know, if if if if you have a a trading strategy and the numbers say

43:13 That you have an advantage. You know, the old saying that if you don't know who the sucker at the table is, you're the sucker. And that's true in all games. in the achievement domains where there's a scoreboard and there's competition. And so you have to find a way to map your advantages and know in the moment whether you have an advantage. And if you do How much risk are you how much risk are you willing to take and what losses are you willing to tolerate? And then the psychological component under that is. Can you handle losses well?

43:44 And if you can't, if you're the sort of person who's gonna say, you know, if I lose this much money on this trade, it's gonna meaningfully affect What I do in the future. That's your tell. So one of the things we do, even though we try to arm out the human condition from decision making You know, as Antonio DiMaggio writes in um in in in in Searching for Spinoza, You know, he says like when you look at people with localized brain damage who have no ability

44:11 To feel emotions. Their decision making is not good. When human beings get localized brain damage where they can't feel emotional Their decision making is not better. It's worse, in fact.

44:23 So if you look at someone like you know, I guess an enlightened individual They are not without emotion. They have refined their emotional reactions in a way that that elevates their senses. So you know you want to push the advantage. You have to evolve to a level where you're some version of a complete human being, where you know yourself, right? The Socratic dictum of Nadi Sutra. Know yourself.

44:49 And No others. Complicated games require complexity of thought. You know, life at the tail end of the curve does not lend itself to simplistic Thinking.

45:01 You have to have complexity of thought, though the decision is final. You know, the diff the decision, yes or no, is binary and and sometimes You know, you you engage is what I call caveman golf, like seaball hit ball. Um, you know, don't overcomplicate it. Ah, and and be decisive in your decisions.

45:21 Uh, we are always I'm cognizant of the time here. We always end on the same question. What is success for you? For me, um back of the napkin, top of mind stuff, Shane, for me personally, and and listen, I I always preach middle class values because I think they work in life. Um, whether you're worth you know twenty billion dollars or not. Like and and so I don't vilify wealth. I love abundance and I love success, but like the values. ten middle class values tend to work in life because they keep you humble and they keep you happy.

45:49 Um, but for me, I learned about myself something that I think it's really valuable to learn. I had a lot of success. pretty early, like in my early thirties. I had a PhD from a great university, college professor. a best selling book and and and and a real lot of success in the world of sports psychology. And two houses and two jet skis and two Vespas that we cruise around town in. And I remember one of my friends said to me, Oh man, he said, You know, you must be so happy and then it was like, you know, you hear the scratch of the record just like Man, I'm not that happy.

46:24 And I learned about myself that stuff doesn't matter to me, like more things. You know, I was an example of Henry David Throw's. You know, you start by owning your possessions, and eventually your possessions own you. I learned about myself that building out a big life doesn't work for me, though it works for some. So I don't script that in my clients. You build whatever life you want to build. Вот I learned from myself. It's what yeah, it's what the actor Mike Myers Mike Myers who

46:52 You know who and they're writing doing Austin Powers. Beautiful thinker, great comedian. In an interview, he talked about what he called no money fun. No money fun. He said, When I was a kid, We would sit out by the airport, my dad and I we'd watch the planes land, he said,'cause we had no money. He said, and we would watch the plane stand and we would guess what kind of plane they were, and then we'd go to the lake and we would skip stones and we'd watch cars and guess what color they were. He said we grew up with not a lot of money but Just but I was always happy and here's the line he said. He said my dad was good at no money fun.

47:24 We always had fun. and things didn't cost a lot of money. What I learned about myself, Shane Is the things I love to do. I love to hit golf balls. It's therapeutic for me. I could do that at the driving range. Didn't cost any money. Five bucks for a bucket of balls. I love books. Books don't cost me any money. I get them free as an academic. I have free access to libraries. Books don't cost me any money. I love working out. Yeah.

47:46 Working out and and being physic doesn't cost a lot of money. I love the human condition. I love talking to people and learning about them, particularly people I'm fascinated by the tail end of the curve. All four of those things Cost. Very little to no money. So what I learned about myself of the things that I love to do, they tend to be active.

48:11 There's active engagement is the profile of my happiness. It's not passive. It's not lazily sitting on a beach getting drunk. It tends to be either task oriented, hitting golf balls, working out, reading books Or people oriented. which is I'm asking questions about how people do what they do.

48:31 you know, about their own happiness, about their their own failure, about the uniqueness of their experiences, what are called crystallizing experiences, the insights they have, their insecurities. And so uh the profile of my happiness is is exactly that. I'm very cognizant, you know, that we get if we're lucky, call it eighty years. In life, you know, for the first dozen of them, you're not really the first five of them, you're not really conscious or conscientious. The last bunch of them, there's no physical vigor. And and objective time turns into subjective time, which means time speeds up.

49:08 And so for me it's it's cliché, but it's it's making sure that I'm present. for every moment of it, even in especially the pain. People ask me, What do I do when I'm afraid? Stare at it. Like go eyeball to eyeball with the fear. Because if you run away, if you allow life to buly you

49:28 You're not present for the moment, you're checked out. And so the type of courage required to be present for every moment of your life. Oh, by the way, that's what Tiger Woods does. Oh, by the way, that's what Steve Cohen does. Oh, by the way, that's that's what Steve Jobs did even on his deathbed. And you look at the ugliness of the human condition, the narrative in politics, the the way people treat people, well, that's been happening since the beginning of time. The human condition has never been Pollyannish. But if you could find a way. To be realistic.

49:59 but directionally positive, to celebrate the positive, to be optimistic, to continue to be kind. to yourself and to be kind to people. You know, in times when you have no reason to be grateful to say thank you, when you don't have a lot of resources, but you help other people. Like there's a bit of a formula there. That generally leads to a good life. We talk about the qualia. of your experience, not the quantifiable what have you accumulated or the record.

50:30 It's the it's the quality of how does your life feel. And so when you ask what happiness to me is, I always have my hand on the pulse of the quality my experience. And I'm spending time with people that I find interesting. And they're not always the most successful. Sometimes they're just really interesting, you know, m the mechanic that fixed my car.

50:50 is a genius in my opinion. People go into that garage with their cards every day and nobody knows that they're entering a place with a remarkable human being. Like a lot of times on Friday afternoons I sit with them with a six pack of beer. And he tells me the stories of his life growing up in the deep south. Um, guy can fix can fix plane, it can fix any engine on earth. And nobody knows that they're going to a m a mechanic every day who can do anything and he's interesting. And so for me to spend time

51:18 uh with remarkable human beings who teach me at every turn. That's th those are the things that if my life is populated uh with those things I feel like I'm I'm being successful. Great answer. Wanna thank you so much for one of the most amazing interviews I think I've ever been a part of. Hey man, you set the table. to to to invite the best ideas out of people and I think that's why we all love you so much. So thank you.

52:02 Thanks and learning with us. For a complete list of episodes, show notes transcripts and more go to fs.blog slash podcast or just Google the Knowledge Project. The Fernham Street blog is also where you can learn more about my new book, Clear Thinking. turning ordinary moments into extraordinary results. It's a transformative guide that hands you the tools to master your fate.

52:27 Sharpen your decision making. And set yourself up for unparalleled success. Learn more at fs.blog slash clear. Until next time.

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