Did the Catholic Church support Hitler?

0:06 How did the Catholic Church come to have dealings with the authoritarian regimes of Mussolini and Hitler? In this episode of the History Extra podcast, Ambrosio Chiani reveals why the papacy decided to strike up these deals with dictators. Speaking to Charlotte Vosper, Ambrosio explains how the politically neutral Curia came to be affiliated with Maslies dictatorship after the First World War, and why this had even more disastrous consequences when Hitler rose to power. Your book traces the Catholic Church across the twentieth century, and today we're gonna be talking specifically about its interaction with authoritarian regimes and World War Two. But before we start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself and why you wanted to write this book? So by training and profession, I am an academic historian who teaches at the University of Kent.

0:59 I'm really interested generally in history about how regimes or institutions lose power. And for the twentieth century there's no more dramatic loss of power than that of the Catholic Church, both in terms of territory and also in terms of faith followers and spirituality. I guess the immediate trigger for writing this book in conjunction with my publisher was the announcement in twenty twenty that the papers of Pist Twelfth.

1:27 The Pope of the Second World War. would be finally released and we would get an inside perspective. Into the church. And since then there have been a lot of studies in Italian, German and French. which have not really been accessible to the British public. They've had really interesting findings, and I wanted to bring that

1:46 to a larger readership. A reviewer once described me as a disappointed Vatican two Catholic. I think that's entirely on the nose. I it was supposed I I think to be a criticism, but it absolutely reflects my position. I've never been nostalgic for a church built on authority, and I basically believe that the church needs to update itself culturally and politically to reflect the twentieth and twenty first century, that we're no longer in first century Galilee at the moment of its founding. So that's basically my position, liberal Catholic. Thank you for explaining that for us. So we're gonna start our story today with World War One.

2:26 Can you tell us what was the state of the church by nineteen fourteen? What kind of place did it have in the world? The church was in a very difficult and traumatic position. In eighteen seventy it had lost its central Italian kingdom because of the unification of Italy. Basically the new Italian state had conquered everything apart from the few acres of Vatican territory inside the city of Rome. So from the church's perspective it saw itself as surrounded by a hostile state. It's a time when the Pope is called the prisoner of the Vatican. Quite a luxurious prison, the Vatican City State and the Apostolic Palace, it has to be said. And I think One of the key elements to show the Vatican's isolation is that the Pope in eighteen seventy, when Italian troops took Rome and declared it the new capital of Italy.

3:15 Asked every Catholic leader in the world to break diplomatic relations with Italy. And everybody said no, that they wouldn't do this, apart from the president of Ecuador, Gabriel Garcia Moreno, who was the only Catholic power That said, we will break off relations with Italy. Ever since eighteen seventy the popes would refuse to appear on the square of Saint Peter's

3:39 or to look out beyond the Vatican. Nowadays we just saw it with Leo the Fourteenth, the Pope goes out on the main balcony of the Basilica. to bless the crowds. At the time they would do it inside the basilica or the Sistine Chapel. They didn't want to look out on the modern world. By nineteen fourteen. The Vatican has relations with only nine

3:58 Powers in the world? Which is shocking when you think that the papacy was the key diplomatic power In the medieval and early modern world. And apart from the Austro Hungarian Empire It has no major key player or ally.

4:13 In the world stage. So It's a story of Deep. Diplomatic and international decline. And you mentioned there a little bit about

4:21 the papacy's outlook on modernity at this time. I wonder if you could just delve into that a little bit more, its attitude towards modernism and what we mean by that in the context of the church. So I think modernism, theologically speaking, or in terms of political theology is is this notion that the church should accept certain changes in political values Like democracy.

4:47 the implementation of divorce or civil marriage. And the church resolutely refuses to do this. Also There is a a growing movement that comes initially from Protestantism, but a number of Catholics also believe in this. that traditions and the gospels are not entirely in keeping with the original narrative of the gospels. For instance, Alfred Deloisie, a Catholic theologian who's eventually excommunicated, says that Christ talked a lot about the kingdom of God, but very little about the church or bishops.

5:21 And that therefore the church is not quite as grounded in evangelical or scriptural sources or history as one might think. For instance, the church proclaimed in eighteen sixty four, I think, the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, i.e., that Mary was born without the stain of sin. But there is not a job. So a number of historians and Catholics are saying maybe the church needs to reconsider some of its teachings in light of new

5:49 scientific and historical traditions. The church doesn't always get it wrong, for instance. It never condemns Darwin, it keeps an open mind which is quite astounding when you think about how Protestant churches condemn Darwin. So it's it's quite interesting. But ultimately, modernism is to be condemned. And

6:08 I think the biggest challenge for the church is when France is trying to change its agreement with the church known as a conkadat and there's a separation of church and state in nineteen oh five and the Vatican breaks off diplomatic relations with France in nineteen oh five. France had been known as the eldest child of the church because it was one of the first barbarian kingdoms to convert to Christianity So the modernist challenge is quite scary. The Pope just at the start of the First World War is Pius X

6:37 And he actually requires that all priests take an anti modernist oath. that they will not promote or not Seek out modernism. There's also A rather shady institution known as the Pine Solidality. Which is all about hunting modernists within the church and getting rid of them or exposing them or getting them to recant.

6:58 It it's quite authoritarian and dark. Yeah, it sounds like it. I think It's really interesting that the church has quite an internal focus at this stage, then. So how does this rejection of modernism play out during World War One? Well, one of the great ironies is that a few months before the outbreak of the First World War The church, with an slightly unknown diplomat at the time called Eugenio Pecelli, who is going to become very important in this story. He's everywhere in the twentieth century until his death in nineteen fifty eight, he's a future pope. Spoiler alert there, I guess. Negotiates A conquered.

7:34 with the Orthodox kingdom of the Serbs. And this deeply antagonizes Austria Hungary, who sees itself as the protector of all Catholics in the Balkans. So already the church is slightly antagonizing its greatest ally in the Balkans. And Pus the ten said he was fearful that there might be what he called in Italian il guerrone, the big war. And he was right. But to make matters worse, he dies. In the summer.

8:02 of nineteen fourteen. And they have to seek a successor, so a conclave. emerges in the first year of the first world war. And they elect a new Pope Benedict the fifteenth. And initially Things don't change too much for the papacy because as I'm sure your listeners know, Italy declares itself to be neutral.

8:22 during the first world war. The biggest problem for the papacy is that it has no diplomatic relations with Britain. Because it's a Protestant country. And no diplomatic relations with Russia, because Russian orthodoxy is quite disdainful of Roman Catholicism. I've already mentioned that France had broken off diplomatic relations after the law of separation and state.

8:45 And for obvious reasons Italy has no diplomatic relations. So the Holy See as the Vatican is known diplomatically, has relations with the Austro Hungarian monarchy. And also with the King of Bavaria and through him the German Emperor. So there's a sense And whether it's fair or not, I'll allow your listeners to z decide. that the papacy is in favor of the central powers.

9:08 The French call the Pope Le Pape Bosch. Which is an insult to say the pro German Pope. And the Italians Have this Slide pun.

9:18 In Italian Benedict is Benedetto. So the Italians call him Maledetto the fifteenth? Or the cursed one, the cursed fifteenth. So The Vatican is trying to be neutral.

9:30 But with some difficulty. Come nineteen sixteen, the papacy tries to come up with a peace plan which is not going to be so far off. Woodrow Wilson's fourteen. Point plan. But there is one major difference.

9:45 The Vatican desperately wants to save the Austro Hungarian monarchy. Because it has a established church position there that it doesn't want to lose. The problem, of course, is that the papacy gives an image of Catholicism as a centralised force where everybody thinks the same. Of course it's not.

10:04 The chaplains in the armies, the bishops in their diocese. All invoke God. Full victory. So therefore It's almost a civil war amongst Catholics in some ways, which I I think is a very sad story.

10:19 But we have so much evidence that I mean, I have to be careful here because it's very difficult to quantify. I think there's an American expression, isn't there? But there are no atheists in foxholes? i.e. that when you're a soldier and you're scared, you will be likely to pray to God. But there is a sign of a certain re-flourishing. of religious belief.

10:40 Not just in Catholicism, but also in Islam and Protestantism. And I think the position of the Catholic Church is a very very tricky one in the war years. So then we get to the end of World War One. What is the church's position?

10:55 Well, one of near bankruptcy. I mean, One of the sillier things I find that a number of historians do is they sort of see Benedict the fifteenth as a spendthrift. That he receives a certain amount of capital when he he is elected to the papacy in nineteen fourteen, and

11:11 And by the time he dies in nineteen twenty two, the Vatican is in Yeah, deep state, I guess of Looming bankruptcy. But the reason this occurs are That the Vatican has a massive humanitarian project.

11:25 And it spends huge money is for sending food parcels to prisoners of war, but also a major information service for those who are deemed to be lost in action or whatever. It it really helps prisoners f re find their families and information to be transmitted. In Italy.

11:43 The church has a very bad reputation. because of a number of German prelates in the Vatican who were clearly German spies. My favorite is the case of Rudolph Gerlak. who eventually has to flee Rome, but he's probably responsible for

11:58 Giving. through his contacts in Vatican and Italian diplomatic services. The coordinates of two Italian warships. Which are actually sunk in Brindisi Harv but It's a really bizarre story because his contact

12:11 Who's an Italian journalist who goes to Switzerland. to give head of German intelligence information. They communicate through a lonely heart column? Which is deeply bizarre. So

12:23 In the Lonely Hearts column, uncle is the commander in chief of Italian forces. The jealous lover is France? And movement or travel or train tickets. is a major offensive.

12:38 So I think part of the problem here is that clearly the Vatican becomes a listening post and information is leaked, but it is not official Vatican policy. So when it comes to the Peace of Versailles and all of the different treaties there, the Vatican does not have a seat at the table. And the Versailles Peace Treaty. Is a disaster for the Vatican. Because in place of

13:00 Austria Hungary. It's worse nightmare occurs. Liberal democracies or constitutional monarchies. As I guess Yugoslavia would become Replace the Catholic and most Catholic empire. In Europe and their Catholicism is deemed to be one religion amongst many. All of the previous privileges, power, and authority is lost.

13:20 So I In the book. state and this I think is quite new, that this is a moment when Catholicism is looking for friends. Those pinnacles that had supported Catholicism for almost two millennia.

13:32 Monarchy and nobility are gone. So Who do you seek out? instead of your traditional friends. I mean the Vatican is deeply

13:42 deluded in some ways at the moment of this search. The nununcio in Poland, Achille Ratti, who will soon become Pius the eleventh. Is Slightly wondering if the Bolshevik Revolution in Russia might not be an opportunity that the Bolsheviks might help Catholicism to replace orthodoxy as the religion of the masses.

14:01 They clearly not read Das Capital or Lenin's writings in any great depth, because state atheism is fairly clear, I would have argued. Yeah. So As you've been saying then. World War One essentially brings political irrelevance for the Curia. You know, they're left without a lot of diplomatic relations and quite isolated.

14:25 And as you've just been alluding to, after nineteen eighteen The church in search of friends starts developing a connection with Mussolini's fascist regime. I wonder if you could talk us through that. How did this supposedly interior-facing theoretically politically neutral church? Come to be associated. So

14:47 I think that the arrival onto the scene of Pope Pius the eleventh in nineteen twenty two, Achillerati, who one of his first acts is to proclaim Christ the king. That Ultimately he reaffirms the twin sovereignty of God. Not just a spiritual sovereignty, but a political one.

15:07 The church believes in authority Not being shared. But coming top down. And that the state should facilitate the implementation of Catholic values. And therefore Ratti does not actually like the Catholic parties that are emerging in Italy

15:23 Germany and elsewhere. Because he thinks politics is a dirty business. He wonders if Authoritarian veteran movements That are highly nationalistic.

15:34 Might not better promote. Church values. Now when Mussolini founds di fasci di combattimento in piazza San Sepolcro in Milan in nineteen nineteen. He doesn't seem that promising.

15:47 Because in his manifesto he wants to expropriate all church land. So That doesn't seem great. But in the nineteen twenty elections he gets three thousand votes. So Mussolini Also realizes he needs to change direction.

16:01 So as we're coming into nineteen twenty two. He becomes more pro-katholic, he also becomes pro monarchy. He's making compromises which will make him more acceptable to a vast constellation of interests. And of course the Pope had met Mussolini in Milan Cathedral in nineteen twenty one during a mass in memory of the fallen of the first world war. And he said he's a formidable or impressive man. And

16:29 He also said he is the future. He was right, but I don't think he quite understood it in terms of what would happen. Mussolini seizes power in the march on Rome. Between the twenty seventh and twenty eighth of october, nineteen twenty two. And almost immediately he begins opening the

16:46 negotiations up with the church. Because the so called Roman question after the seizure of Rome in eighteen seventy is still Unresolved. The Vatican has no official status in international law. And it's not quite clear what its position is in Italy. And Mussolini slowly starts bringing in legislation that is pro Catholic.

17:06 Crucifixes are put up in schools. divorce remains illegal. A Jesuit Tacchi Venturi becomes a secret intermediary who literally meets the Pope during the day and at night goes into Palazzo Venezia in central Rome where Mussolini has his officers and says, This is what the Pope's thinking. This is what we're thinking, and it begins a very slow process of negotiations. I think it's nineteen twenty four. Mussolini hosts

17:34 in Perugia, which is a new uh university founded by fascism. A major conference to celebrate. the contribution of catholicism to Italian culture. The Duchess is really pushing for this. I mean, it leads to Major Mayhem in his own house. His wife Varakele is militantly atheist, like a lot of women of Emilia Romania. So apparently he has to almost bring her

17:57 screaming and shouting to be baptized and to have a church wedding so that he has that social respectability and to seem a genuine interlocutor. All of his children have to be baptized, and Mussolini ultimately believes, as Napoleon had before him and others, that That if He makes peace with the church, they will legitimate His regime. And he's not entirely wrong, and this will yield dividends, I should say.

18:21 By nineteen twenty nine. Yes, nineteen twenty nine. We are going to come on to talk about that now. But it's just interesting, isn't it, that actually the church at this time, despite being, like we've said, politically pretty irrelevant and lacking a lot of diplomatic relations, is still something which Mussolini wants attached to his regime for legitimacy. There's that interesting kind of paradox there. resemble each other. Mussolini's authoritarian, you know, top down orders. Tuche means leader in a military sense.

18:52 And the Pope says, Yeah, this is my guy. You know, it's exactly how I see the church, because Achille Rati is very authoritarian. He expects that when he telephones Vatican officials that they will kneel when they receive his telephone call out of damned respect. And he expects his orders to be followed and not questioned, which is not that dissimilar to Mussolini. No, no, there's some parallels there, definitely. Now let's go on to talk about nineteen twenty nine. That is the year of the Lateran Accords being signed. Could you just explain for our listeners what that agreement is and what it sets in place? So the one line answer to that, and I discussed this a lot in in the book, is it puts an end to the Roman question.

19:31 And We call them the Lateran Accords because there are three agreements. under the umbrella of one name. So the first agreement is quite simple. It's about recognizing the Vatican as an independent micro sovereign state.

19:48 And this is about giving the Vatican, its own power supply, a postal service, train connections, in order that it is able to function as an independent power in its own right. So I think that's quite simplistic. The other Agreement is

20:04 that the Vatican will be compensated for the loss of its central Italian kingdom. To the tune of one point seven five billion lira. That's quite a lot in those times. One has to be very careful because inflation afterwards makes Delira really go down in value, but in the nineteen twenties it's quite high. It's a king's ransom and it makes the Curia one of the richest states m or micro principalities in the world So it makes

20:32 The church finally very wealthy. One of my favorite things from this as well is that the Italian state also agrees that no Building. South of the Taiba will be high enough to look into the Vatican City state.

20:46 That ultimately The Vatican doesn't want any nosy parkers looking over its high walls. Which is intriguing in in in in itself. I think that's no longer enforced because it's impossible to maintain with m modern urban planning. The third agreement is the most complicated. It's about The relationship

21:06 between church and state in Italy. And ultimately It's recognized as the religion of Italy, but not as An established church. Mussolini accepts there can be pluralism, there can be Jews, Protestants, and other religions. Inside of Italy, but the

21:21 uh catholicism will have a position of preeminence, but will not be the sole religion. Also, Mussolini insists that the church will not interfere with politics, that it will not oppose his dictatorship. Let's make it as simple as possible. That the church is all about the spiritual mission of inculcating Catholicism and providing spiritual and material w welfare to the poor. But it must not.

21:48 Defy. The fascist monopoly on power. So the Lateran accords are Three agreements. And for Mussolini, the signing of them permits him all of the sort of pageantry and showmanship that he loves.

22:01 State cars. going to a cathedral of Saint John Latron for the official signing ceremony. Him with his diplomatic gold braid uniform. A Bicorn hat and plumes next to Cardinal Gaspar, who's the Pope's let's say foreign secretary, signing this And it gives him some Q Dolls, you know.

22:21 It hadn't happened in fifty nine years. No Italian regime had managed to do this. So I was you mentioned the last one records, they bring kind of structural benefits for the Catholic Church in Italy. But I wonder

22:34 How does this affect the ordinary Catholic, the ordinary worshipper going to church? So Ultimately it facilitates your life. It's fine to be Catholic in public. And you know, until more or less nineteen fourteen, the Pope had ordered you not to vote in Italian elections. There's a facilitation.

22:53 But There are also going to be problems because the Catholic Church has a huge amount of civil society. Institutions. There's something called catholic action. It is about

23:05 Living your faith not just as an abstract thing, but in everyday society. You have mothers' clubs, you have equivalents of boy scout movements. Catholicism has a tentacular grip. On all of society. And as long as

23:23 These civil society institutions Play the fascist tune. All well and good. But A lot of people in these organizations are

23:35 former liberals they're a bit disgruntled with fascism or they don't quite love its values. And also Fascism is almost a religion in its own right, you know. of the state

23:50 Its own rituals, its own uniforms, its own highly performative structure. Does it be a good thing. come into sort of clashes. With the church. So in some places there are attacks on Catholic institutions.

24:06 And the Pope is horrified by this. In part yes. The Conquerad brings some benefits, but it also leads to Tensions, it's not a fix all solution. So once the church is in this agreement with Mussolini.

24:20 Did the Pope try to influence the fascist regime in any way? Do you think that there's any sense that the Curia saw their connection with Messalini as an opportunity to moderate his dictatorship and curb his excesses? I mean I'm going to really give the most annoying of all answers that historians always give yes and no. Actually within two years of the Concordat, there's a major bust up over Catholic institutions. And the Pope actually publishes an encyclical in Italian. Not unprecedented, but quite rare.

24:51 We don't need you, which is quite a good title for an encyclical sort of saying. that we should b only worship God, not the state, and that I've got big issues. With This

25:06 And of course the secret intermediary between the Curie and Mussolini, Tacchi Venturi, is ending up taking a lot of nighttime trips to see Mussolini again in Palazzo Venezia. But they come up with an agreement. Ultimately. That the more political Catholic institutions like the Federation of University students will be wound up, but that the boy scouts and the less politicized ones will be allowed to operate In parallel.

25:31 with other fascist institutions. There's a further agreement and The Vatican doesn't have problems with dictatorship. At the end of the day, the church is not a democracy either. So it doesn't really criticize dictatorship. But In nineteen thirty five

25:48 And this had been a long term ambition of Italy. Italy finally gains its own empire. There's the invasion of Ethiopia. And the papacy is against because diplomatically it has to be neutral and it has to think about just war theory. But Italian Catholics and the Italian hierarchy are very enthusiastic.

26:08 The most ridiculous narrative that emerges in some Catholic newspapers is finally We are going to bring it up. The heathen Their words not mine to the light.

26:17 There is a problem in this. The Ethiopians are some of the oldest Christian sects in the world. You know, the Ethiopian Bible is a marvel of eredition scholarship and the addition of quite a number of Apocrypha from the Old Testament and the new one. This is not actually a war against non Christians, but a deeply In some ways depraved attack on them. And

26:40 Mussolini decides to come up with his own vision of robust or masculine Christianity. It's around this time that there's a cult created, the Madonna del Manganello Our Lady of the Truncheon because the Virgin Mary seems a little bit too nice. So they actually put a truncheon in her hand. Which is a very remarkable image in an attempt to make this all authoritarian. So on the one hand the Vatican's against but Italian Catholics very enthusiastic.

27:07 Icons or images of the Virgin Mary are actually sent with the troops. And unfortunately the Italians actually commit atrocities, which I cover in my book, which haven't really b had much attention outside, I guess, of African history. It's a crime against humanity, w without doubt. Where I think the church performs rather better. is when Mussolini is forced into a greater friendship with Hitler.

27:31 And in nineteen thirty eight he brings in the racial laws. And this is where I think Pius the eleventh comes into his own. He actually states spiritually We are all sea mites. This is a big admission given that the church had always had, and I think we're splitting hairs here, the church always says it's had more of an anti-Judaic or anti-Judaizing

27:52 legacy in which it always felt that the Jews should be Promted to convert to Christianity, but ultimately it is Against anti Semitism. But Pious the eleventh is

28:04 ultimately really anti the racial laws. When Hitler comes on a state visit to Italy in nineteen thirty eight, the Pop goes to Castel Gandolfo and closes the Vatican Museums to ensure that Hitler, who sees himself as a great official nada of art, won't be allowed inside the Vatican museums. The relationship. With Nazism is different from the relationship with fascism. Now you mentioned there the church's connection with Hitler and Germany.

28:30 In the book, you suggest that we should understand the church's response to Nazism in its European context. I wonder if you could just expand on that a little bit for us. Yes, of course. So on the one side and I'm I I think it's probably redundant of me to go into this in too much detail here. There's political response. From nations like France, Britain.

28:50 And what have you, which has usually comes under the umbrella of appeasement. And I think you can situate the church to an extent within appeasement. But at the same time, I think the church has A slightly different version of this. In Italy

29:06 In Portugal. And eventually, but although it's very different story in Spain. It makes agreements with highly authoritarian regimes and it sees this as beneficial. We'll let you get on with the business of dictatorship.

29:20 You let us get on with the business of controlling people's spiritual, moral, and private domestic lives. And the church says We can probably do the same. With Hitler.

29:32 We can probably come to some nice cozy arrangement in which he can get on with ruling Germany and we can get on with ruling the consciences. Of the people of Germany. And I think that's something of a miscalculation. Yes, you're absolutely right. It definitely was a miscalculation. And we will come on to discuss that in a second. But for the moment, could you summarise how the church came to an agreement with Hitler and what that looked like? Well it's quite embarrassing. So The Fising Conference of Bishops condemns Nazism and says you cannot be a Nazi and a Catholic. Which is more than slightly problematic for the Church when Hitler comes to power. And one of the first acts they do is to lift this ban because they realise that taking Nazism to task so directly

30:18 is going to be problematic for the church. And Hitler almost immediately makes a rather ambiguous speech stating Та хісь крістіаніті анон. And one of the most important aspects of German culture and tradition.

30:37 And we met him at the start of this podcast. Eugenio Pacelli And he becomes in the early nineteen thirties. A Cardinal Secretary of State, basically the Pope's Prime Minister, a Foreign Secretary, depending on how you want to see it, and he says I think we need

30:53 Two Have a conquered. Wait. Hitler's Germany. to come to some sort of understanding.

31:00 And the hikes conquer that. Oh the imperial state conquered that is quite an advantageous agreement. It again allows the church to benefit from state recognition, and that it will be free to pursue its spiritual aims. It also enshrines Pew taxes.

31:17 This is still exists in Germany that if you declare yourself to be Catholic, part of your taxes go to the church. And On the face of it, the Reichs Concordad is not too dissimilar, I guess, from the Lateran Accords. Especially the third part of the Lateran Accords which govern church and state. But The problem is that

31:36 Hitler is an even more unreliable interlocutor. than Mussolini. On the face of it, the Nazis seem quite promising for the church, and Hitler. Goebbel, Himmler are all cradle Catholics.

31:50 But what they hadn't really looked into were their current views. And they believed that nature has deemed the German peoples to have complete mastery of the world. You get a lot of this in Alfred Rosenberg's The Myth of the Twentieth Century. Which the Catholic Church thankfully puts on its index of prohibited books. Rosenberg is condemned, but

32:11 The Catholic Church is too scared to put mine camp. the index of prohibited books. Catholics can read Mein Kampf. So ultimately the Rice Concordat is signed in 1934. And Eugenio Picelli makes the joke, I'm sure they're gonna break some of the terms of this agreement, but surely they won't break all of them. Little did he know. Before we move in to how some of those agreements were actually broken, I wonder if we could pull out a little bit more about the difference between Mussolini's treatment of Catholics and Hitler's.

32:41 How are Catholics treated under the Reiggs Concord Act? there is very little accommodation between this sort of notion that you know you can have a a parallel Catholic boy scout institution or civil society roots the what the Nazis slowly try to do and eradicate is actually church Schools.

33:00 The church is ignored in terms of its policy. You know its laws on euthanasia. or the liquidation of those with mental health issues or handicaps. The church is entirely ignored. Also

33:12 The church is persecuted. Now I I want to be very careful here. I'm not saying that the church is as persecuted as anybody else. That would be ridiculous. But It's given a number of warnings, and some of them are quite difficult to assess. So one area in which I think the church is persecuted is that a lot of religious orders

33:33 send money back to the Vatican. Part of the charity they receive has to be sent back to the mother hub in Rome. And you get us several things called in German Viesen Process. Or currency trials because it is illegal to send Reichsmarks outside of Germany. And nuns, clergymen all get prosecuted under this.

33:53 And I hope I won't upset anybody, but they are technically guilty. But it seems quite unfair that what they've been doing all along under the Weimar Republic suddenly becomes a crime. The other aspect And

34:08 I apologize to listeners, this is quite difficult to hear. The Nazis start prosecuting priests Full Basically, I guess child abuse or sexual misdemeanors. What we know today makes me wonder if Hitler and the Nazis rather

34:26 Craftily. hit the church where it knew it was most vulnerable. Because Mussolini's secret police files, and this is something historians have been studying since they've been released. Mussolini knew that a lot of Italian priests were paedophiles or child abusers. But they kept this in reserve, he said, We can use this in secret negotiations.

34:43 The Nazis use this a lot. As we're getting closer to the war, it's clear that Hitler does not like the Catholic Church. Hitler has this weird notion of positive Christianity. Which basically means Christianity with the removal of the Judaic part, Nazi Protestants actually produced something called the The Judeous Bible, which is actually quite a short book, unsurprisingly, because if you remove

35:08 the Jewish bits of the Bible. It's it really it isn't w doesn't worth bearing. I mean Christianity is a Jewish heresy at the end of the day. Let's let's put it in those terms. So it's it's Much more hostile and almost immediately. The church knows that it's not dealing with Mussolini's regime. With the Nazi regime came the Holocaust. And there is a lot of controversy now about the church's response to this.

35:35 But first of all, Can you run us through? how the church responded to the Nazi persecution of the Jews. This is perhaps the most difficult issue. So the two views are That the church.

35:48 was a collaborator and colluded with the Nazi regime. And the other extreme view, which is the official Catholic Church's position. That the church was a major rescuer of Jews and a major institution. That aided the Jews. I've done a lot of research into this and I've

36:07 used a lot of new studies and a lot of new material from the Vatican archives in the book. And I'm afraid. that neither view holds water. The official Vatican line that hundreds of thousands of Jews Was saved.

36:21 under Vatican instruction, I don't think holds water. Ultimately what we do know, thanks to studies by Johan Ix Is that about four thousand requests for help came to the Vatican from Jews. Quite short of a hundred thousand. I think everybody will agree. And about three thousand of these requests were accepted.

36:41 But for instance, in some cases, especially with a Portuguese Jewish lady in Paris who's seeking an exit visa to Portugal The Vatican said no because she was in an adulterous unmarried relationship, and therefore they thought it would be unseemly to help her. So I think we can say that about three thousand Jews were helped directly from the Vatican. Where it gets complex is that huge numbers of monasteries, of nunneries, of Catholic

37:07 civil associations Welfare organizations all trying to help the Jews. That probably takes us it into tens of thousands of Jews saved by Catholics. Now the Vatican's line is well Ha these guys must have been operating under secret instructions from the Pope, from Pius the Twelfth, the new Pope who was elected actually in nineteen thirty nine. Well this is tricky.

37:29 Because most of the evidence we have from this comes from the nineteen sixties and seventies, when the church decided to open a process to make Pius the twelfth a saint. A process that has not made much headway, it must be said. And all of the survivors and people who'd helped the Jews were sort of asked a rather leading question. But of course the Pope did tell you to do this. And as loyal Catholics they said, Oh yes it did. He did absolutely. Since we've opened the archives, and even the curator of this of the Pius the Twelfth papers in the Vatican, Giovanni Corco,

37:58 In his newest book, says there is not a single document. Two proved that the Pope actually had a policy. of rescuing the Jews. Another Italian historian has recently published A very, very interesting study of the Vatican gendarmerie.

38:16 And he's actually found documents in which in the middle of the war the Vatican actually asked monasteries and church properties that if they held any Jews or refugees to turn them out. Because it would compromise Vatican neutrality. So The opposite is the case.

38:31 But huge numbers of pious Catholics Did come out. in favor of the Jews. That's undeniable, and they must have saved tens of thousands. But I think at the same time

38:43 We can't focus just On the Catholic Church saving Jews or behaving well in Eastern Europe. But Also we have to understand that a lot of Catholics were perpetrators of the Holocaust.

38:58 So for instance in Hitler's puppet state of the Slovakian Republic The head of state was a Catholic priest, Joseph Tizo. In Croatia, where you had Ante Pavelitch, my apologies, my Balkan languages are not very good, you had the Eustasha regime and the Catholic Church entirely. supported not just its persecution of the Jews, but also the forced conversion of Croatians. of orthodox Serbian creations to Catholicism.

39:27 So I think one has to be very careful. About Being overly simplistic and just saying that Catholics were saviours of Jews, there was also a lot of persecution by

39:40 certain Catholics of the Jewish population. So I think That the church did try a position of neutrality, but It didn't officially collude with Hitler. By no means it disliked the Hitlerian regime.

39:53 But it certainly didn't see the Holocaust as its problem. Ultimately I think another thing which is untenable. Is this view that the church didn't know? That's not merely untrue, it's unhistorical. Because the Vatican since the first world war had started renewing its

40:10 network of diplomatic agents and humanitarian organizations So especially after Hitler Launched Operation Barbarossa. It was getting an infinity. of reports about massacres

40:23 Killing fields, concentration camps in Eastern Europe. And there is no sense that the Vatican didn't know that this was the truth. In Poland. Where there was a policy especially in Western Poland of depolonization to remove the poles.

40:40 Huge numbers of Catholic nuns and priests were also sent to concentration camps. So it can't be said they didn't know. But the key official dealing with relations with the Jews and the east of Europe, Angelo Delaco, and this is something new we've discovered. made his own anti-Semitic comments on reports that we're receiving. For instance, he said, Can you really trust the Jews? Or can you really trust these reports? And also, it is not the Vatican's role.

41:06 to act as a humanitarian agency for for to save these people. I mean it's it's it's deeply, deeply tragic and disturbing. Even when Italy starts losing the war. And change his side to the Allies. Which leads to the German occupation of Rome. You have

41:24 In October. nineteen forty three, the German invasion of the Jewish ghetto and the round up of its population. And even then The Vatican Doesn't it?

41:35 large an official protest. It's deeply, deeply disturbing. What it does do is it asks to have access. to the military training college, which is almost adjacent to the Vatican on the Tiber, and to go in and see if they can find if there are any Catholic converts in the Jewish population being rounded up there. And David Kurzer, who's one of the finest historians

41:59 of the Second World War and Catholic relationships to the wall. tells I think one of the most disturbing and horrifying stories I've ever heard. one of the officials of the Secretary of State notices that a woman has just given birth. after she'd been removed from the ghetto.

42:17 And we can only assume But the child she gave birth to would have died nine days later. In Auschwitz. And that does make you think.

42:28 that ultimately they couldn't save a child like that just because there wasn't evidence of a conversion to Catholicism. That it was seen in such cold. And unfeeling and uncaring. Now I I need to be careful here because I'm making it sound as if the church had no moral backbone during the second world war. And the Bishop of Munster, Clemens von Galen, in the middle of the war actually condemns euthanasia.

42:54 And shortly thereafter, I didn't think it's only his role, but Hitler holds the Youth in Asia programme. And apparently Himmler put in his diaries, as soon as the war ends, we'll have to hang von Garlen from the steeple of his own church as a sign to others. At the start of the war, Pius the twelve had also tried to put the allies in touch. with the German resistance, the so called Abwehr plot, but it stumbled on a sense that the Alli didn't trust them

43:23 So I'm really sorry to listeners who want me to say Did the church behave badly or behaved well? It did both. But it certainly wasn't the beacon of light or

43:35 the moral backbone of the world in this moment. That's untenable. In the same way as there are people who, despite not having Vatican instruction, save the Jews. There are also people who despite not having Vatican instructions persecuted and helped in their murder. If I'm honest, I think that the biggest response to the Holocaust was probably indifference.

43:58 That people wanted to save themselves. And not stick their neck out. And also because there was a long tradition of Catholic anti Judaism, because Jews were accused of deicide, of killing Christ and God. There m wasn't a huge overabundance of sympathy or compassion for the Jews and that probably helped.

44:18 To create a culture of passivity before that light. Yeah, it's uh It's a difficult reality to come to terms with, that I think, probably for a lot of our listeners. Now, as you explain in the book

44:30 The church had no role in ending World War two. But What was its position after it? Oh. since the Bolshevik Revolution it had learned a few lessons and it was terrified of communism.

44:42 So fear of communism was the overarching sense of the Catholic Church. So again in terms of making friends. It finally came to terms in I think it's the Christmas message of nineteen forty four. The Pope says that Catholicism and democracy are not incompatible.

45:00 And that the future will be with Catholic parties that share Catholic values. And that was what is going to happen in Italy with Christian democracy and in Germany as well. But And this is maybe more serious. The Pope is deeply against the Allied policy. Of Unconditional surrender.

45:18 Because Pius the twelfth had been a diplomat Germany in nineteen eighteen. He felt that the Visay Punitive. settlement against Germany had led to a resurgence of warfare and hostility. He wanted to avoid that.

45:33 So the church was trying to oppose the unconditional surrender. I think thankfully for humanity the church was ignored in that. When it comes to the Nuremberg trials The church has a highly ambiguous position. Because on the one hand

45:49 I think there was a recent film, wasn't it, with Russell Crowe playing Göring all about the Nuremberg trials, and it makes it seem as if the Vatican was against them or compromised by the Nazi regime. Well, actually, the Vatican did open its archives and did provide evidence for the prosecution. But it also advised leniency. And in one case, I think it's particularly disastrous. The ultimate idea was that Hans Frank who was known as the Butcher of Poland because he'd been the military governor of Poland.

46:20 And he had enthusiastically supported. The Holocaust. Well, during his incarceration pending Nuremberg, he had converted to Catholicism and And therefore the Catholic Church lobbied

46:34 To be spared the death penalty. Which I think seems insane in light of what we know about what the Nazis did. But also the church is not shy of condemning a lot of groups in our society which one would argue have not actually massacred hundreds of thousands of people, unwed mothers. People who through no fault of their own undergo early terminations of pregnancies or homosexuals have been condemned. But Hans Franz The butcher of Poland is worthy of forgiveness.

47:02 I find that troubling. I find that deeply, deeply difficult to understand. Now, the other issue that the Vatican has to face in the immediate post war is and I don't know if our listeners are familiar with this rat lines. i. e the huge numbers of Italian fascists and German and Yugoslav Nazis Managed to escape. Two

47:24 South America mainly. And that Catholic humanitarian organizations who were under the auspices of the Vatican Facilitated. The flight Of huge numbers of Nazis.

47:37 So ultimately Fear of communism is the immediate post war response. The work of the Italian historian Cantonanti. has brought about an very interesting study about Pius the twelfth decision. to issue a general excommunication for all communists, that you can't be Catholic and communist. Because there were a number of Catholic communists and priests who said that the two things are not incompatible.

48:02 The Pope, No, you're wrong. You can be only one or the other. And the church gets quite a bit of sort of CIA money and CIA support in its anti-communist campaign. My favorite story in all of this is the slogan that characterizes the Christian democratic campaign in Italy in nineteen forty eight. This is the first elections.

48:24 after the fall of Mussolini, the first democratic elections. And the Christian Democratic Party says, Remember In the polling station or the polling booth. God can see you, but Stalin can't. Which I think is awfully good.

48:41 That was Ambrosio Chiani speaking to Charlotte Vosper. Ambrosio is a senior lecturer in history at the University of Kent, and his latest book is Flirting with Evil, The Catholic Church in the Age of Total War and Globalization, which is out now.

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