Dr. Julie Gurner (Part 1): Caring Deeply, Challenging Directly

0:00 We let life happen to us, right? And we don't decide that we are going to control the trajectory of it. And I think that that's true, whether it's in the small moments and sometimes even in the large ones. Like people will stay Unhappy at a job. Or stay unhappy in their role, and they'll just stay unhappy.

0:19 But why does it have to get to that point? early intervention in almost every case is worth The attention, the the hassle, the time that it takes. Because those are the the moments that allow you to really gain ground. Thinking about, you know.

0:35 how you want your life to look. and what you're willing to put up with. Welcome to the Knowledge Project, a podcast about mastering the best of what other people have already figured out so you can apply their insights into your life. I'm your host, Shane Parish. If you're listening to this, you're missing out.

1:08 If you'd like access to the podcast before public release, special episodes that don't appear anywhere else, hand edited transcripts, or you just want to support the show you love, you can join at fs.blog/slash membership. Check out the show notes for a link. Today my guest is Dr. Julie Gerner. Dr. Gerner is a performance coach for exceptional people. If you're like me, you constantly think about the delta between how you're performing and the potential for your performance.

1:38 I worry about getting complacent. that I've plateaued or hit a wall, that I'm performing at a level less than the best I can do. Dr. Gurner has helped me with her sub stack, her conversations, and more. In fact, she was kind enough to offer a lecture to the kids are in charge, which was the homeschool I set up for my kids. and some of their friends during the first part of COVID. We put all those lectures on YouTube and we'll include a link in the show notes.

2:03 This episode is full of actionable advice to unlock your peak performance. In fact, our recording had so much useful and practical insights that we decided to break it into two episodes so you can get the most out of each listen. This is the first episode and we focus on Discipline, motivation. The imaginary rules and behaviors that we learned as children that hold us back.

2:29 patterns of outliers, including a strong distaste for authority, The advantages of caring deeply and challenging directly. And so much more. It's time. To listen.

2:42 And learn. Julie, I think we should just dive right in. Let's start with discipline and motivation. You've said that relying on discipline is the worst strategy you can use, and suggest we replace it with something more powerful. Yes, I mean like one of the things that I think about, um, is that you know, oftentimes people get the uh advice that like you have to rely on discipline. And from working with people who are at a very high caliber of operation, one of the things that I find, honestly, is that you know discipline requires a lot of push.

3:20 Right. Like I'm gonna be I'm very disciplined about my workout. I'm really gonna push it. Motivation is a pull. It is something that like is internal, that fuels you, that drives you. And a number of the people that I tend to work with are very obsessed. Like you don't have to push them to go to a meeting. You don't have to say, Hey, Ted, like you have to go to the, you know, go to work today. And Ted's like, oh, hemming and hawing, you know. He's stoked to go to work. In fact, his wife is probably telling him to turn work off in the at night at some point, to stop talking about work, to stop thinking about work on the weekends. Um So I think that oftentimes, you know, discipline is very useful. And I think it's useful in a few different cases, right? So like if you want to get back on a you know, a virtuous cycle. Maybe you've fallen out of your exercise routine and so

4:09 you need to get back into it and you really do have to push yourself that day to get back to the gym. Perhaps, you know, it's useful if you're doing something completely new. You know, you're going to really take a leap and I really have to push myself. I know it's good for me. I don't want to take that chance, but I'm going to do it. Um, and so you really push yourself. So I mean, and you know, sometimes people have off days, right? You don't feel like doing things and you just do them anyway. But I feel as though is the des discipline is often really Uh, I think there it's talked about because it feels tough to do. Like, you know, we're doing the hard thing, we're slogging through.

4:44 But when we are at our best, we're not slogging through. And great people are obsessed and they're not slogging through either. They are driven, they are motivated, they are deeply, deeply engaged. And so I find that oftentimes when we over rely on discipline. Those are the times we start to see like Olympic athletes retiring, right? Like they don't wanna if it starts to feel like a slog and you're pushing yourself every day. I mean, we have all have periods of that. But too long, and that really becomes laborious. And to me, it's often a flag that perhaps you shouldn't be in that area at all. I think that's fascinating. You you mentioned off days, right? Like we all have these off days, and I think one of the differences that separates people.

5:27 Is the fact that um outliers, if you will. Do it on the off days. I think that they do use discipline in those times, right? Like We all push through, and I think that makes it.

5:39 We feel a lot of gratification in that, in fact. know it's an interesting correlation that grit and happiness are actually correlated, right? So when we see ourselves pushing through things, we're proud of ourselves and we feel good about who we are. But We certainly don't use that as a primary strategy in in life, or it makes life pretty unbearable. It seems like the people who are great at anything are obsessed with it and they have this innate drive. And I wanna relate that to motivation because it seems when hiring

6:11 lot of people talk or think that they can motivate other people. What's your take on that? Oh, that's such a good question. I think that internal drive is something you can't teach. Uh and I'm very uh You know, perhaps that goes against uh current wisdom. I do think that as long as someone has that internal hunger and that internal drive, you know, there was a there's an old saying that you should hire people who are PhDs, poor hungry and driven. And while that may not always be the case, I think the internal drive aspect is something you really can't teach. I think you've got it or you don't. And

6:46 I think that for other people, however, like can you tap into that? Absolutely. So for example, you can have an incredibly internally motivated person. Who doesn't see the opportunity to really flex at the particular job that they have? And can you motivate that person and engage them with things that tap into their internal drivers? Absolutely. So knowing that person really well. You know, and your one-to-ones figuring out what is this person's goals, what are their drivers, what are the things they want, and being able to tie your work and your opportunity to those things, I think can really pull people. I think it can get them really engaged. But you have to have kind of this baseline internal hunger to start with. And so that's kind of how I conceptualize that.

7:31 That's interesting'cause a lot of organizations and a lot of people try to create motivation in other people when it sounds like in reality We don't necessarily have the ability to create that drive, but we do have the ability to get in the way of drive. I agree. That's a great way to phrase it. And I think we have the ability to release it in our direction. If we can align it with like the company goals can align with your goals, if you know you can help them see that that kind of overlay. I think it's amazing. I think it's also when you look at like equity, for example, in startups.

8:05 You know, part of why equity is useful is because. You can create and you know, if you do it right, life changing money for not just you, but for you know, an entire team of people. And does that end up tapping into things that line them up and motivate them? Absolutely. People are pushing harder. Or at least that's the theory, right? That they're pushing harder and they really want the company to win because not only, you know, do they want this company to succeed, but they have, you know, generational investment in making that happen for themselves and their families and uh and other people in their lives. I wanna come back to drive again. There there's two sort of like subcategories of this I want to get into. I I I think the first one is do people sort of like have drive and then reach a certain level and become complacent?

8:54 I don't see that in the people that I work with, but I I imagine Maybe it's out there. I haven't I have not seen that. So I mien I think that the challenge with the people that I've worked with is that You know, they'll reach a certain point, and and I see this perhaps with people who get these large offers and they turn them down, right? They think I'm capable of more. I think one of the primary reasons that people engage with me to begin with is that

9:20 You know, deep down They feel just like probably anyone else sitting in your audience probably feels like, hey, I'm capable of more than where I'm at. And so, you know, they're on a mission to really actualize that drive. And when they reach a certain point, you know, their companies are large, their state of affairs is fairly envious. I don't think that that goes away. And you know, uh currently I even have someone that I

9:44 I work with, um, and it's like a a very large kind of family business. And the gentleman who is a chairperson is I want to say he's in his mid seventies or so. And man, that guy uh is hungry as ever, even though he's just advising and he's a part but he is engaged. And you see that with Warren Buffett and you see it with others, like they just kind of don't lose that. And that's where I see, you know, when you talk about motivation. That's a pull that just it is an endless source of fuel. And then when you tie that with something you're like obsessed by, you know, the researcher who can be in a lab and look at a A peptide for 20 years, you know, it it's just something that is very, very challenging to beat. And I think that's what really creates a lot of. you know, elite operators because you know, you can be interested casually in something, but someone who is obsessed and motivated and pulled and driven

10:38 You you just can't beat that level of operation. And where does that fire come from? It seems like a lot of outliers have A chip on their shoulder, if you will. It's it's interesting'cause there's a lot of people who talk about that chip. And there's a lot of controversy, I think I've read around you know, should you be using these negative things to fuel you?

11:00 And you know, I'm a big fan of using Negative drivers as well as positive drivers. I think if you have deep rage, deep anger, deep resentment. Um, it's how you channel that that will make it beneficial or detrimental. I mean, those things can be absolutely destructive and people can. really kind of, you know, burn their own homes down with that kind of energy. But channeled properly, that energy is also a force to be reckoned with. And so I think that that chip on your shoulder can be a real motivational

11:32 pull for a lot of people because there's nothing that they will ever reach that will fully prove it wrong, right? I mean, so that becomes that endless source, you know, that your third grade teacher told you you'd never amount to much. And now you have, you know, you've 50 million bucks in the bank, but that's still not enough. I'm gonna still show her, right? Like I'm still going to push that forward. And it isn't so much about her, but proving it to yourself. Um, and that's when it really becomes um. quite a motivator, and if you talk to people, you'll still hear These kind of echoes, uh, as you've said, of people who have chips on their shoulders and they're still running hard. A friend of mine, Josh Wolf, who says chips on shoulders put chips in pockets, right? Yes. Yes. Josh is very famous for that one. I love it. And I I think you you hit the key point there, which is harnessing that fire in the right direction. But it is a fire that never goes out. And if you can learn how to harness it.

12:25 Then it just becomes this perpetual sort of fuel source. It does. And I think that that Is uh I think that's really the key to a lot of things, you know, people Are more adept to working against than oftentimes we give them credit for. So we often think of people working for things, but they often work against things too. They work against poverty. They work against their upbringing. They work against some of these things just as much as they're working for them.

12:54 And um, you know, some people are very fear driven. And we talk about fear as being very negative, but it also can be very po positive. You know, like There's Muhammad Ali um and others, I I think it was Mike Tyson who said, you know Tyson would say that he is a f he was afraid, you know, every single day that he was going to be humiliated in front of groups of people. And he would just be training and training and training out of fear that he was going to be, you know, just publicly humiliated. And he would notice in himself as he's walking to the boxing ring that like

13:26 that fear starts to go away and he began he he says that he begins to feel like a god because he had trained so hard and there's nobody on earth who could have trained as hard as he did. I see that sometimes with people who will tell themselves, you know, I will never be poor, I will never be X. And there is a a certain type of driver even there that we can use. something negative and really flip it to something positive if we have it in the right framework. And I think that's where you begin to see some uh discrepancies in psychology, there are these kind of inflection points in people's lives where they will choose to overcome. Or they will choose to be kind of beaten by things. And you will you will see over and over again that there are groups of people who will always choose to overcome.

14:13 And there will be people who choose uh people can argue whether they choose it or not, but there will people who will be beaten by certain things. And then kind of this creates a a cycle where they don't feel they are capable of overcoming. And that's a real challenge. That's a real cognitive setup that um can defeat people for

14:34 Long periods of time. And uh and it can be a really tragic end for th in that case. How do you shift that mindset where circumstances uh sort of like when you feel You're a victim. I mean, effectively you're a victim to circumstance. You feel like you have no control and you're powerless and there's nothing you can do. What would you say do to somebody like that? That's a really great question. I think that there are two ways of looking at at victim

14:59 Uh Mm. Things that have happened to you. You know, you can be a victim or you can be a survivor. And those are two very different

15:06 cognitive positions. You know, you can't control what happens to you in either circumstance. But one is very powerful. um you have overcome. One is, you know, you have had something happen to you. And you are

15:21 under that thing for quite some period of time. So for me, if I hear someone and I I hear that kind of helplessness. Um, one is that I never I I want to reframe that experience. I want to tell a different story. I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that. Um, and in some ways you want them to rewrite that narrative to survivorship. and overcoming and what it took, and you ask the right questions to get them to see

15:49 um you know, that their own Through way. in that case is based on their strength and ability. And you want them to see those things rather than seeing the the kind of helplessness and powerlessness. It's the reason why oftentimes, you know, like people engage with me and they think we're gonna go back in time and talk about their, I don't know, inner child or something. Um, but I am I am someone who's going to start with who you are today. Because going back to the past.

16:14 Is Not really useful unless it informs who you are standing in this moment. We can't change it. We can't uh you know go back and going back to times of powerlessness also It puts you in a bad mindset. It sets you up in a negative way. So I oftentimes will go back and restructure some things around.

16:33 You know, risk, for example, is a really good area where we'll do some uh discussion when people are hesitant to take risk. I want people to go back and say. Hey, tell me about times you took risk and it really paid off. Like Let's talk about that. I want people to understand what they're capable of and sometimes to see what they're capable of in ways That they um That they quickly forget, right? I mean, negative things sometimes shadow our entire mindset and how we think about things, and we end up

17:01 Tossing aside some of the good things, right? Like you'll have Uh you know. twenty compliments on your haircut and one person says, Oh, what'd you do to your hair? And that's the person who gets all the attention. So You think about I don't want them shoving aside those twenty compliments or those twenty times they took the chance, or the twenty times that they overcame something really incredible that they kind of you know, kind of shove off to the side. I want them to see those things very clearly and to see the minority of

17:28 Yeah, you know, things happen periodically that aren't great for us and don't make us feel well, and we make bad some bad decisions, but So what? Everyone does. I think that that that's really important. I mean, we all make bad decisions. It's what you do next that sort of matters. I wanna go back to something you said about childhood though, which is Uh I hear this a lot and I've always sort of wondered about it, which is like

17:50 uh when people are in therapy and they're talking about their childhood and then they do this sort of like destructive behavior and and then it's uh or self sabotaging behavior And then they explain it away with, Well, that's because of this when I was a child. And it you know, I I'm always listening to this and I never comment, but in my head I'm going, but you're an adult now. Right. Right. Like at some point you take control over your your response and awareness of it is not the same as doing something about it. So this is this is really fascinating to me too. And I I love hearing things like that when they come up because they're such clear, like flags and clearly they are for you as well. Like you hear that and you're like

18:29 Oh, this is a problem, right? I mean in immediately. So I think about it like this. You could be sitting, I and this is the example that I always think about because it pulls people away from some of the more emotional stuff, but you could be sitting in traffic, and we've all sat in traffic, right? I mean, traffic as long as the eye can see. And there will be some people you'll look out and they'll be like beeping and dodging and you know, like they're all over the place. And you can surmise how that person must be thinking, right? I mean, it's just like never gonna get there. Can't believe this is happening, like We could

19:01 anticipate that these are coming from strong thought patterns and emotional places. But if you look to your right, I mean there's probably also some guy or girl listening to a podcast. Texting someone, windows are down. look as relaxed as could as could be. And so some people are going to say, you know, when you get home, like

19:20 Why are you so upset? Oh, is the traffic. The traffic makes me nuts, right? But if the traffic really makes people nuts, it would make everyone nuts. And So it can't be that. It's how we're thinking about the traffic.

19:33 Um That really makes people be relaxed and productive, or it makes them be just absolutely enraged and out of control. So when people are telling me that like You know I'm doing this because of my childhood. I'm doing this because of this. I think, you know, your

19:53 You know. You're giving up some amount of um Power. You're giving up a lot of power to something outside of yourself. And

20:02 You're also how you're interpreting that event is not useful to you. You know, it may be there may be a lot of truth to the terrible things that have happened. But you know, those those terrible things, you you have to shut the door at some point and say, you know, I am my own man or woman, and I move forward.

20:19 And you know, working on those traumas is important if you go to a therapist. And I think that that's really valuable stuff and it's worthwhile because it can change the course of your life. But if you're somebody who uses other events as a reason to self-destruct. Your seeding power, and we see that even with um, you know, in companies, right? Like I'm doing this because So and so made me angry. I'm doing this because.

20:44 You know. And you end up making some poor decisions. Um And seeding power. because of someone else, you know, you're willing to make a poor decision, you're willing to give up

20:55 You know, sometimes people are willing to give up, you know, their entire future dreams because, you know, of X Y and Z, and it's a tragedy. U so you want people to really understand the power they have to create their own lives at some point. And that they that creation is not given to anyone else but you. I I love what you said there. I think it's these ordinary moments that really dictate the outcome of our life. For a lot of our big decisions, we know we're making a decision.

21:23 We're well aware of it. But in these ordinary moments when things like this happen, we sort of tend to react without reasoning. And when we do that, we put ourselves in an increasingly bad position, right? You go home, you yell at your spouse, well, now your whole weekend's wrecked, your marriage might be wrecked. Like all of these things sort of like compound. And then you can't be present at work because you're solving something at home. And we just don't realize how The these Innocent little moments.

21:48 uh can derail us and put us in a worse position. I agree. I think that like we let life happen to us, right? And we don't decide that we are going to control the trajectory of it. And I think that that's true, whether it's in the small moments and sometimes even in the large ones. Like people will stay unhappy at a job.

22:09 Or stay unhappy in their role, and they'll just stay unhappy. uh instead of just saying, hey, you know, like it eventually they'll reach a point. And this is true for everyone, right? Like They're unhappy, they're unhappy, they're unhappy, and then finally I've had enough. And All of those excuses they've used. there will come a point when none of them matter and they're going to take that leap.

22:30 But why does it have to get to that point? And why can't we kind of flag things earlier on and I think early intervention. You know, I I talk about that notion of like fighting up front. early intervention in almost every case is worth It's it's worth the attention the the hassle the time that it takes

22:50 Because those are the the moments that allow you to really gain ground. And to have a much more productive future, to have much more productive relationships, to be more productive at work. is to really intervene early. Um and I think intentionality is really the key. thinking about, you know. Um

23:09 how you want your life to look. and what you're willing to put up with, you know, what kind of standards are you holding for yourself and and you know, how do you value yourself? And a lot of those are around, you know, when you take action and, you know, how much you give and what you're waiting for and how much you're willing to take. There's so many things in in that response that we're gonna talk about later in the show, including fighting up front. And the standards you set for yourself and the people you allow around you. Before we get into that, I I wanna ground people in sort of imaginary rules, if you will. What are they and how do they work and how do they get in our way? I the thing about imaginary rules that I think

23:49 are really interesting. is that you know we're all raised with rules and some of those rules are great, right? They teach us to be well mannered and not to get arrested and how to operate in society and all of those things. And I think those are fantastic. But we are also simultaneously ingesting other rules that are unspoken. And that are really unsubstantiated, right? Like what is possible for us. Um, you know, what are the things that we can do? What are we capable of? You know, what are we capable of earning or doing or creating? Um

24:19 And I think that those things are ingested and we don't talk about them. And then we end up Becoming uh kind of we're raised in eco. system like echo chambers and and kind of little systems of operation that are reinforcing these rules all the time. The r the rules we don't challenge, the rules we don't talk about And

24:39 You know, unless you find a way to expand beyond yourself. And the internet makes that wonderful, by the way. But you know, unless you find ways to expand beyond yourself, these imaginary rules that you carry around. often keep you very small. because you will limit what you feel you can do. You will limit how much you feel you can earn. You will limit

24:59 What you feel you're capable of because you've never seen it. And also because other people have reinforced it. You know, I don't know about you, but You know, when you grow up, sometimes you have a very limited world. You know, for me growing up, I thought The wealthiest person you could be was a physician.

25:15 Right? I mean that's What I thought. And you know, my their imaginary rules that everybody lives by, you know, it shapes their world, what they try for and what they think. And then you start to see outside of those imaginary rules, and all of a sudden they start to break. That is those are Incredibly important moments in people's lives.

25:36 But many people, I I would say that most people, if you ask them Most people will say, you know, you ask them, Do you feel as though you are You know, you're the author of your life. You are the person who is in charge. Everyone will say yes. I mean Course. And then you ask them, Well, what did you want to be when you grew up, right? Like what did you want to do?

25:55 and they'll say oh I wanted to do this or I wanted to do that. Most of the times they haven't done it. Um And or you'll you know, or I didn't know that was possible for me, or oh, I didn't even think I could do that. You'll hear them bumping up against these rules all the time.

26:09 And I think people in everyday life are bumping up against them and they don't know what it is, but they're frustrated. And so then they begin to ascribe things to other people that aren't true. Like the only people who make A million dollars a year, oh, those people, they must exploit other people. Those people must be born into money. Those people, I mean, all of these rules, you'll hear them. And They're not necessarily true. But there are ways in which we kind of figure out our own place and we're figuring out other people's place and

26:38 You know, it's kind of what we tell ourselves, and I think that we could do a lot more. Most people are capable. Far more than they imagine themselves to be. And You know, we stay small because we believe these imaginary rules to be true. I think the most powerful story is the one we tell ourselves and I think these rules

26:58 create our mindset and our mindset shapes how we interpret all of the information. And the world around us. Uh when you were talking about imaginary rules, like one of the ones that I was thinking of is, you know What do we do uh as Humans, we seek validation of others. Like that, that is sort of like an imaginary rule that your approval matters to me. We're sort of brought up with this.

27:20 uh in the notion of raising kids, I guess that's sort of implicit, right? You wanna you wanna impress your parents and your parents play on that as a way to get you to do certain things. uh but it creates this sort of barrier where it's like it's serving you for a while, maybe as a child, but then it It's serving you in some situations, but it's not serving you in all situations. And it can be very harmful. I agree. And you know, you hear people say, you know, um Screw what everyone thinks, right? And and I think that that's, you know, that's a quick way to become a jerk because you don't want to do that. Um, you wanna care what some people think. And so you wanna care what people think who are maybe

27:56 you know, your spouse or your children, or you know, some people around you. But that's where I think your social circle really matters, because you know, these people are going to reinforce. certain imaginary rules that will, or they'll help you break them. They'll say, Hey, you're worth more than that. Why are you putting up with that at work? Or they'll say, Man, Yeah, we all got to deal with these terrible bosses and like we're all in it together. And those are very different groups of friends, right? I mean, there'll be people who are cheering you on to start something new or maybe pushing you to start something new.

28:27 And then there are the people who say, Ah, I wouldn't risk it. Like, why do you want to do that? You know, so these are people who like the people that surround you are going to really be important in you know, how you think about those as well. So seeking validation, I think is normal and is natural. Uh I think being in a you know, social media world makes that really challenging. And and I think that that makes that uh hard for a lot of people, being able to establish boundaries around that. But I think also boundaries are very confusing generally for people, right? Like how do you set the line on

29:01 A lot of things in your life. Um But yeah, seeking validation, I think can really be a double edged sword. I think that we we should seek it from the right people in our lives, but we certainly don't want to be seeking it outside of that. And I guess I'm of the belief that that circle of seek validation should be incredibly small. I mean a few people. Um, you know, your spouse, your kids.

29:25 maybe one other person in your life that you really trust and feel like has your absolute best interest at heart. But others I mean, I remember there was a wonderful interview with Oprah and she said, You know, when I left my job to do uh to st to start out on my own to do this talk show, every single person in my life told me I would fail, except for one. And you know, it was it was her her best friend at the time, or I I think still her best friend, but the point being that sometimes, you know, those uh those areas the people who will cheer you on will be few, and it doesn't mean that it's the wrong move.

29:58 Well, y you mentioned setting boundaries. I'm I'm curious how how we learn to set boundaries and the power of setting boundaries and what it does for us. In relation to performance. Yeah. It's it frees us, right? Um I think that when

30:13 We set boundaries around you know, what we should be taking on and what we should not be taking on. We set boundaries around what is our optimum use of time and what is not. We set boundaries around Um you know, how you operate and how you don't, what you make time for and what you don't, whether it's in fitness, uh fitness is hard for people to get in. I know that a lot of people talk about

30:35 You know, oh I you know, I get up and I do this and then I do that. And you know, but a lot of people I work with You know, they get fit later and they kind of are really like not as fit, perhaps always during the creation process of their businesses. It's hard to fit in and have A spouse or anyone else in their life. Um So you know, boundaries are

30:56 incredibly important, but boundaries do ultimately free us as you're scaling, for example, as a CEO. Or it you know, someone starting a business, you'll notice you do everything at first. And then you know, you start to pull into your areas of highest and best use. And those shift over the course of your business, and if you stay in the weeds. You're gonna compromise on scale. You gotta set boundaries.

31:18 If you get involved too much in, you know, product, which is something very typical for a lot of people. And you get your, you know, your tentacles in there too much, you're not paying attention to some of these other things. So to me, boundaries are freedom. They allow us to move quickly, not overcommitting. Not having too many open loops. You know, all of those things are ways in which We're not having the proper boundaries. Um and then even committing time for our personal life, right? Having a date night with your spouse.

31:45 once a week and holding to that, like actually holding to it and not saying, Well, you know, a really important thing came up. Um So boundaries do free us and they allow us to live our best life, but we have to really enforce them and we have to be really clear on what they are and we have to communicate that clarity sometimes to others in ways that sometimes make people uncomfortable because we like to make people happy. Um And setting boundaries makes very few people happy. Uh it will make you happy eventually, but with other people, I think their tendency is to kind of push and test, but you have to really hold on to that so that you're able to operate in your highest use. Uh, I like the idea of boundaries a lot. You you hit on in in that answer, you sort of hit on sleep and nutrition relationships and I sort of view those as the foundations of what you're building your house on. Yeah. And you know, you you can

32:36 neglect them if it for lack of a better term at any point in time, but it has huge consequences and ramifications. It it seems like the first things that tend to go are sleep, Eating healthy. And and these tend to create like this doom loop, right? The less you sleep, the worse decisions you make, the worse you eat. The more unhealthy you are. I I'm curious uh as to what you think of as the other foundations in life and and what you've learned about these pillars and how you integrate them. Is it more of a balance or a mosaic, or how do you think about this? I think about it as the

33:10 If you have only one leg of a stool, it's easy to kick out, right? So like if you say hey Everything that I am is my business. And you put your identity in that. It's when your business does poorly or it collapses, it just it shakes you. If you have multiple legs of that stool.

33:27 You're much more stable. And so I do think about creating stability in multiple prongs of success and multiple prongs of grounding in people's lives as foundation. So for example, like if your relationship is Is is uh very conflictual or high conflict.

33:47 That's gonna eat into your head space in your work. So take care of that, like make it a priority and be good about it. If you're going to invest in that. I mean, there are some people who will say, look, maybe this isn't the right time for you to be in a relationship at all. That's fine. But have some stability in that and know who you are in that space. And take care of it. Um, if you're going to be somebody who, you know, in other foundational items, as you've mentioned, like with sleep and eating and nutrition and all of those things. You know, be good enough that it's not

34:15 provides a level of of stability and foundational elements. I think about medical needs too. I'll have people who will put off like a nagging shoulder pain for like You know. Oh, I don't want to address this now as physical therapy. Oh my God, you know, like who has time for that? Address it.

34:31 Right, like address those nagging medical things, get yourself up to par. So it isn't eating headspace. It isn't eating into your energy. It isn't something you have to worry about. So basically what I'm trying to do is say, hey, like let's build a lot of different legs to that stool. Maybe you're someone who's in the spirituality or you're somebody who's in Like have some foundational things in your life that you take care of. But also don't have things that you're not taking care of that are going to tap into that energy source and actually pull you and distract you away.

35:01 Um So what you're going to have in your life be intentional, include it. Nurture it, make sure that it's stable. Uh because the things that are not Are gonna pull at you everywhere, like if you think about it.

35:13 We bring our We bring ourselves everywhere we go. And so those things that pull at us, or who that take from us. you know, that is also going to be reducing our effectiveness or our mood stability and some of those other things um in our work. We think we're good at compartmentalization, and often we're not as good as we think. Well, we think we just we're not talking about it, so it doesn't affect us. That's very different than, you know, sort of like compartmentalizing the whole thing because it does seep into you. You can't be good at work if you're not good at home.

35:44 I think that we a lot of times people will use being good at work as an escape if they're bad at home. So, like, for example, you'll see that sometimes people who reach Pretty great heights aren't always the best. Dads, they're not always the best husbands. Sometimes they are. They're phenomenal. So I don't want to make that a generalization. But I think that it's also very easy to be pulled into areas where we feel competent and good. And where we feel rewarded and where we feel um

36:12 That we're winning. And it's hard to go into areas where We might be falling down, we might be dropping the ball, we might need to do some work. Um, so I do think sometimes that can also reinforce a very bad cycle where oh things are really crappy at home, I'm gonna stay at work for an extra two hours and you know, I'm I'm really gonna get, you know, set the company up for this big win and you feel good and everyone pats you on the back. Um, and you're all cr you're creative and you're uh productive. And then you go home and you just You feel like you know you're losing and life isn't going quite as well as you'd hope.

36:44 I I I wonder in those cases Uh You know, in the moment we're not thinking in the future, but I wonder what the hindsight is in twenty years for for people who choose that, right? If if they feel like that trade off was worth it, if they consciously even made that trade off, right, versus unconsciously making that trade off.

37:04 I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, the whole notion of regret minimization, I think hits us when we're already at the point where we're minimum we're re regretting. Um But I would hope that people are thinking about those types of things. You know, there was a guy that um

37:21 I was able to speak with it in the past at some point and he said he'd always bring a note card with him. And he would write on that note card, you know, How am I gonna be the best like One thing I can do to be the best, like husband today, dad today, CEO today. And he just like had one thing that like

37:36 You know, and s maybe it was something really stupid for his kids, like he's gonna swing by the store and bring home some candy, or he's going to like take everyone out for ice cream after, or maybe it's just watching a movie or playing a video game with them. With his wife, maybe it was just like, Hey, I'm gonna make sure that I'm, you know, affectionate or I'm going to do something, you know, whatever it is. But he would always have one intentional thing. And I always thought that was really interesting that you he had something to make it intentional. To be better in multiple spheres of his life. Um You know, you're not gonna hit a hundred all the time, but

38:06 It was still really nice, I think, uh way of moving forward. What what are the common sort of patterns at the risk of generalizing common patterns that you see in sort of outliers that you deal with? I love When I deal with people who are outliers because they are

38:22 Resolutely like themselves. I think that they tend to be very quirky people. uh as individuals, and I think it almost is a forcing function. To pushing them where they end up going, right? Like if if you're e somebody who easily I often wonder, and this is just my own theory, right? Like if you're somebody who easily fits in the crowd and you're somebody who's very much like the people

38:47 I think it's easy to uh kind of tampen other areas of your life to be a part of those people and to be a part of those communities and to be socializing and doing all those things. And these are often people who are a little quirky and um Maybe aren't the most popular person in high school. Uh, but they are

39:04 All smart and they are all um You know, really Focused. Um They have an ability to like.

39:13 risk and they like winning. And it's a they enjoy it, right? Like they enjoy setting up things that they can win at. And I think they don't really care much about What other people think about how they operate.

39:28 I also think there are people who make Really big bets. And are willing to take really big losses. a guy who's gonna spend, you know, eight million bucks on a machine and then buy a few anticipating that, you know, his company's going to catch up. Those are big bets.

39:46 You know, people who are you know, deciding that they're gonna hire people in advance or that they're gonna, you know, do something that's pretty close to the edge as far as you know, in regulations. You take big chances. Uh, and I think that they enjoy those kind of big swings.

40:04 I think part of the enjoyment, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you go all in on something. So you're sort of like you burn the ships. You've landed on the island. You you've made a bet. And you you've had the courage to take that risk, and then you you've cut off all of your exit paths. And

40:21 W my theory on this is that that forces One hundred percent focus. And we can do amazing things when we're fulfocused on one thing. I I think that there's there's a truth and a non truth in that, if I can push back on some of it. Yeah, please. So I think that like There's a truth in that there's a lot of power in focusing on one thing.

40:43 I don't think that they see themselves burning votes because I think that they see that no matter what happens, they'll figure it out. Right. I don't think that they're gonna say, like, oh, I'm gonna lose it all if this happens. I think they'll say, Well, I'll figure out another way, right? Like I and I think that that is a common trait that they'll say. There's not just confidence in in taking on the task. There's confidence that like

41:06 No matter what happens in uncertainty that they'll figure it out. And a lot of times they're often people who are learning new skills all the time. So I don't think the boats are always ever entirely burned. I think they see that there's probably a dinghy out there they can take somewhere. Um But it's

41:23 It's fascinating because they do go all in. And I think that's a that is a and they'll take do things that are just ridiculous and audacious. And I think that that is fun to to watch and be a part of that kind of well, why not? Why can't I do this? Um And it pushes against those, you know, imaginary rules that we talked about earlier, where people would say, Oh, you can't do that. Yeah, some Yeah, or some random guy is doing it and it's it's working out. And I think that that's it's a It's a fun game for them.

41:54 You you mentioned confidence. That there's uh an interesting thing that I see with people, which is I a lot of people who um don't do things and they talk about them. And this is anecdotal, of course. And you maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong here. The they tend to not have the confidence to get to the outcome. Whereas people that I see that do things have the confidence to take the first step and then confidence that they'll be able to figure out wiggle out, hustle, like whatever they need to do to get to the next step. Yeah, I think that there is a very strong link.

42:30 Um, more than we think. with like hesitancy. and self esteem. So for example, I think the more you hesitate You see other people doing things, you watch, right? And

42:42 Like If you don't take the chance. And you watch other people taking the chances and doing well. Now you're one step behind. And then you you watch them continue to take chances. Now you're three steps behind.

42:54 And you watch them just continue over the course of a year, you're watching someone blow up and do great, and you know that person well. Like Man, that guy's doing it, and here I am. Still thinking about that idea I had. And I didn't do it. And it just it's it's a an erosion of uh confidence just over and over and over again, that hesitancy.

43:15 And so I do think that even if that bias to action And the ability of people to Make those moves, as you said, you know, you watch them do it and they do it over and over and over again. They know they can figure it out because the first leap, just taking that leap, is like a shot in the arm. And it makes you feel A little bit more confident'cause you made that leap.

43:34 Nothing went wrong. And now you can figure out can you do the next one? Can you figure out the next step? It it like Confidence stacks as you begin to continue to take risks, but I also think that hesitancy pulls you into this kind of negative loop. Where you know, it builds on itself too.

43:51 And you really have to be cautious that things don't kind of sit on the on the table and you just kinda look at them as you come in and out because That will keep happening and you'll keep looking at it and it will keep bothering you. And then eventually you just feel like you'll make up some rationalization why it didn't happen. Like, ah, you know, I'm so glad I didn't do that because I didn't really have the time or I got to spend a lot of extra time doing this or

44:16 Whatever it is, but you'll find a reason to rationalize it and eventually. It will go to the place where dreams die and there will be a lot of other things that will set in that bucket with it and it will be uh unfortunate for you because you never got to see what would happen. I I think confidence comes from how we talk to ourselves. Would you sort of agree with that? I would. I think that

44:37 that it definitely comes from how we speak to ourselves, uh, but also just how we think about ourselves as And and those are two distinct things, right? Like how we How we talk to ourselves. How we think about ourselves.

44:51 Um How we conceptualize ourselves. Who we see ourselves being in the larger Space. Um

45:00 And I think that that is a really important thing and and it's also why I I really dislike sometimes when people will say, you know, like never forget where you come from, right? Like Yeah, I mean I guess there's some value, but like If you're evolving

45:15 You shouldn't be the same. So someone's saying, Oh, you've changed. Yes, consider that a compliment, right? Like you want to change, you want to be different, you want to grow. And I always feel like when people say things like don't forget where you come from, sometimes it's a way of saying, Well, you know Remember you're not that great, right? Like remember that you're still that person from X. Um so I do think that sometimes

45:36 You know, if you if you're ever on Twitter, it's what's really fascinating is if you put something big and bold out there, you'll always get people underneath though. You get a lot of cheering folks, but you'll get people underneath who will try to like set you straight. Right. uh of why things won't work, why things won't happen. And I always like every time I see a response like that, I always think Oh wow. Like

45:56 I am so sorry. Like this is a framework that is going to It's gonna keep that person small. And I always hope that there's a way in which they can see that like this isn't the only way to look at it. Like keep following along, like keep being a part of things and um and don't give up on reading some of this stuff because it'll hit eventually, hopefully um, as you watch people doing some of the things that they talk about doing. Have you ever noticed that nobody like trying to knock you down or tell you no, that's not how it works has ever actually done the thing or, you know, done anything for that matter that sort of would give them the credibility to say that. It's uh it it's never an outlier who's like trying to knock you down.

46:37 You're right. I mean it isn't like Sam Altman swoops down from the wherever he's he's at and says, you know You're never gonna do this. Um, you're right. I mean, I think that that's a it's an interesting observation because you have people who Are struggling themselves who want you to see that like that's the struggle we all should have. Um

46:56 And It just it just isn't, right? And I think that there are different ways to react to people who Are doing very well, or who think differently than us. We can say, for example, when someone is really focused on doing big things You know, some people will be envious.

47:13 Some people will see it as inspiration. And I always think that that's um every now and again I'll throw out that I'll say something like I guess this is is controversial, but I'll say, Oh, you know, Chris Jenner's really done some amazing things, right? She's built multiple mil billion dollar companies and people tend to overlook that and they'll say, Oh, you know, she did it because of a

47:33 You know, this on her kids or You know, they'll find a way to kind of discredit things. And and I always think it's fascinating that it's We will find ways to discredit. Things that we want to

47:46 That we that we don't like or that we we don't think is possible for us. And it's harder to say, Oh yeah, she was a You know, she was an airline stewardess. And now she has like multiple billion dollar companies under her belt. Like that's pretty amazing.

48:00 Um Why aren't we kind of focusing on we always focus on like, oh, but this person did this or this person did that. And Um And so it's it's amazing our tendency to try to tear others down rather than to see them as inspiration and say, Oh my God, like How does someone who's an airline stewardess get to that point?

48:19 What if brilliant move uh or series of moves to be able to capitalize on what uh what they had in front of them. I think that's so interesting. You hit on something there that Uh and I'm thinking out loud here, so apologies if this comes out wrong, but like we tend to discredit things in other people

48:36 maybe that we're envious of or that w could have we could have seen ourselves You know, follow a similar path, or we we didn't get lucky, so we want to discount their Yeah, I think we have to put it on luck, right? Like those oh, they got lucky. I I think that's a really good observation, or that like we see things that other people have done and we'll have to find immediately a reason why they did it and we didn't. Like maybe they're a bad person and we're not. Or You know, they are not as immoral as we are, or they are not as uh something as we are. Like I often hear that people who are very wealthy exploit other people. And you know, like

49:14 That's certainly, you know, if we want to look at Where bad people are, I mean there are So many people who are abusive parents and I mean it doesn't always have to do with wealth, whether you're a good or bad person. Um, there are bad people everywhere, there are great people everywhere. And I think that

49:29 We always have to find reasons to To make ourselves feel better, we're telling ourselves certain messages to keep us. comfortable with where we're at. And I think that's a really important point that like should we really be as comfortable where we're at. I don't think that we should be uncomfortable, but I think that we should be grateful for what we have and where we're where we're at, but always feel like, hey, could we do more?

49:52 It would we be happier if we were able to do this other thing, um And sometimes, you know, the end goal is not what people think. You're gonna I have certainly worked with people who want to build these massive companies. And they're doing it because they want to be able to give back in some other way or to have influence in some other way. Or to build wealth in some way that is beneficial far beyond themselves.

50:16 But those are often not the stories that are told. Um Or the things we don't focus on, we focus on the very, you know. loud, bombastic, uh radical actions of some people that capture headlines. And we forget that there are thousands of people who are not represented.

50:33 Because we you know, good stories aren't always the headline grabbing stories we'd like to read. It's almost like we focus on things that keep us in place. Keep us in with your current mindset. Oh, that is so true. That is so true. Um I think we like to reinforce ourselves, um. In ways that we

50:50 In ways that we can and make sense in the world that we've constructed for ourselves. So given that backdrop of sort of confidence and all that we've just talked about. How do we learn to take risks? I think that we learn to take risks, and I would I would have anyone who is hesitant around that to take risks in low stakes places first. Right? Like

51:13 Go sign up for a five K if you've never run a race and you are physically capable of doing it. And sign up for a 5K in like five months, which gives you a lot of time. Download the you know couch to five K app. Not affiliated with them in any way, and just say I'm gonna try to do something here. Like I'm gonna give it a shot. And nobody has to know.

51:34 It's not about your work. There's no kind of public anything about it. It's just you and you and do something small for yourself and like nail it. And I think that if you can do small things, even if just smaller than that, right? But you know, challenge yourself to build something in your garage, challenge yourself to be able to lift a certain amount of weight. uh challenge yourself in some small way where you're gonna take a risk and go outside of yourself. It translates, and what you start to notice is that

52:01 When you start having some wins outside. you will start to pull that mindset in your work and your business and you know, you get a little bit of a swagger to you that I think is really healthy. Yeah, uh definitely. I I think swagger enables a lot of things in life. Well, it's interesting that you said uh you know, you don't have to tell anybody about it. It used to be common wisdom

52:21 that we would sort of like state your goals publicly'cause that's gonna make you And now it's so maybe uh that happened before it was so easy to share our goals publicly. And now I feel like people get as much validation from sharing them as actually doing them. But all the time that you spend talking about these things you want to do comes at the expense of doing the thing you want to do. Absolutely. And you know, research in psychology shows that when you share your goals and people give you praise, it actually pulls from motivation to achieve them. So it's You know, it's why I you know, vision boards aren't really all that great for you because you look at it and you you tell your friend like

52:58 You know, hey Ted, look, like I'm gonna buy that Ferrari one day. And he goes, Oh, that's so cool, that's so amazing, and you get that reward center hit. And now like you know It's a little your motivation's a little bit different. I think that oftentimes if you wanted to do something like that. Instead of doing like a vision board, do something like a progress board, right? Like have things that you're going to you can watch yourself getting closer along the way.

53:21 rather than just like this is the end goal, this is amazing, because you know, you don't want to hit that reward center, just like on social media. I know everyone's a big fan of like building in public and I'm not, I'm o absolutely opposite of that. And I'm much more of the Sun Tzu, like, let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you fall, fall like a thunderbolt, right? Like that's my That's more how I would think about operating. You get yourself together, you know what you're gonna do, you put your head down, you do it. And then when you fall, I mean, like pull back the curtain and let people see, and you can get the praise if you want it then or get the criticism then. But when you're talking about your goals online, oftentimes you get people who give you feedback, people who say certain things, people get in your head, people give you suggestions. And unless you want those things.

54:08 Like I don't know how useful it is, and I feel like it's often a detractor. And I don't see that as being common with other people. Google doesn't say, hey, we're really thinking about doing X, everyone. You know, not only does it flag all of its comp competitors at that point. But it's because it's really not useful to the build of what you want to do. And that's true for individuals, too. That's why I say, you know. Don't tell other people if you're gonna do this thing. Just make it you versus you.

54:34 and do the thing that you want to do and make it personal. And make yourself proud. you see again with that grit and happiness correlation and then you're accomplishing a goal, so that's building confidence. All the research really stacks in your favor when you start to do these little things. And they make they lead to big changes. Thanks for listening and learning with us.

55:16 For complete list of episodes, show notes. Transcripts and more. Go to fs dot blog slash podcast. Or just Google the Knowledge Project. Until next time.

What you see above is a preview of the first minutes. One unlock costs 10 credits and covers this episode forever: full segment and word-level timestamps on this page, plus .txt, .srt, .vtt and word-level JSON downloads, as many times as you like.