The Hospitality Principles That Build Billion-Dollar Startups

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/18c5fde2d6425c46

All right, this episode is with Will Goudera. Will is the author of a book called Unreasonable Hospitality. He also is one of the writers for a T V show called The Bear, uh, which is very popular. And there's an episode in the Bear. It's called Forks. I think it's in season two, and it's an amazing episode. You guys have to watch it.
And it's basically all about excellence.
So how to have unreasonable hospitality. There's a lot of people listening to this, a lot of the MFM audience. You guys run internet companies. And so this book that he wrote, it's about his restaurant called 11 Madison Avenue and how they went above and beyond to treat their customers amazingly and how it actually helped their customers and helped their business.
Maybe this book hasn't come across your table because it's not about the internet stuff and
That's one of the reasons why I wanted to have Will on.
So give the episode a listen. I loved recording this. And one of the big takeaways, other than going above and beyond for your customers, it's about being excellent, being excellent in life in business and fitness and family.
I hope it inspires you.
I loved it. I loved recording this episode. It inspires me.
So give it a listen.
I feel like I can rule the world announce
be what I want to
Man, I I'm I'm happy to talk to you. I read a lot and there's probably two books that
are not meant to be business.
Or at least my type of internet business books. One of them is The Inner Game of Tennis. It's a book about how to be great at tennis, but it's
It's sort of like
how to be good at sports psychology or life psychology, how to handle stress and not be down on yourself.
And then the other one is unreasonable hospitality because when I read the book
I sort of wanted to become unreasonable at the rest of my life.
I remember reading the book and I was like, This guy's an animal.
Like he's he's he's really uptight about things that I am not uptight about.
And to be the best that I can be, I need to be relentless.
It's interesting. I think that the dichotomy of what's in there is
To accomplish what we did there.
require this relentless pursuit of excellence. Right. I mean that's that's kind of an inevitability when you're trying to become the
Best at anything. But
What's wild was it wasn't the pursuit of excellence that actually
took the restaurant over the top. It was the relentless, unreasonable pursuit of hospitality, right? Like
You push everything to get every detail so unbelievably perfect, and then you do these messy things at the end.
To make people feel so very seen. Whether
That's
Obsessing over every single garnish on a plate.
of crazy uber fine dining food.
And then recognizing that the thing that people will actually remember is a hot dog.
Or
Whatever other random thing we did for people.
And so it's this.
quest for perfection and the acknowledgement that the most human moments
Are perfectly imperfect.
And those are the stickiest of all.
And what w what what's that story again exactly?
So
It was a busier than normal lunch service. I was clearing tables.
Um
To help out the TM.
And I was at a table of four, there were foodies
From Europe and New York just to eat at fancy restaurants.
As they've been to like, you know.
Le Bernadette and Danielle and Jean Georges and Perse, and for anyone listening who does not know what those restaurants are, just trust in how fancy the names sound. They're the very good ones. And and this was their last meal. They're going straight to the airport from the restaurant to go back home and and you just overheard that.
And while I was at the table, they were raving about the trip and then one woman said, Yeah, but we never had a New York City hot dog.
And it was just one of those light bulb moments and
I ran out to the hot dog cart, bought a hot dog, brought in
Then came the hard part, convincing my fancy chef to actually serve it in our in our restaurant.
But he cut up the hot dog, put one little piece on each playable swish of ketchup, one of mustard.
A Canella sauerkraut, one of relish.
He like topped it off of a micro herb or something to make it look. Could it look all cool, yeah.
And then before their final savoury course, which at the time was our
Honey lavender glazed Muscovy duck.
I brought out what we in New York call the dirty water dog and I explained it. I just said, Hey, I overheard you before
We didn't want to let you go home with any culinary regrets. Here's that New York City hot dog.
And
S they freaked out.
Like I'd been working in restaurants my entire life. I had to that point served tens of millions of dollars worth of
Wagyu beef and lobster and caviar. I'd never seen anyone react to anything I'd served them.
Like they did to that. And this was at eleven Madison. This was This is at Eleven Madison. Okay.
And for the the non New York, non foodie audience.
I love it, Madison. I think you guys won an award that was like the world's
World's best restaurant. Was that what the title was? Yeah. Which is just a that's that's a crazy thing, uh that that even exists. But you won it. Uh you won uh that such a ridiculous award.
And uh the book I think got a huge bump in the in the T V show The Bear because of the episode um
Forks.
Where the kinda loser cousin goes to one of your restaurants and he learns how to be great. And he learns how to be great in the most
w strange way when you're watching the show, which is you polish the forks. And if you polish the forks really well,
uh you're gonna be great at this other thing, which means it's gonna lead to this other thing and this other thing. And then eventually it goes to when you're talking to a customer and you overhear them saying
I love this restaurant.
And my visit to New York has been amazing, but I would really just love a hot dog. I still haven't gotten one of those yet.
And if you overhear customers say that, you run outside and you get them a hot dog and you present them in such a way that brings memories. Yeah. And that's that that's the the point of the book and also um a little bit about your background.
Were you at Eleven Madison as uptight as or as like hardcore as the show, uh the bear kind of made it seem? Like do you ha do you have to perform
And sort of be a dick to your staff in order to make them buy into this stuff.
Listen, I think to succeed in a restaurant
As a leader, the same lessons are true.
when it comes to succeeding in any other business. I think the greatest leaders are those that when they walk into the room, the people that work for them
Like
Check themselves a little bit.
They want to make sure that
Everything is as it's meant to be and
They smile because they're happy that person's there.
Right, like when you when you're a leader that acts like a dick.
People
Are just scared of getting yelled at.
When you're an attentive leader that is
Mm.
Thoughtful.
And holding people accountable.
People
Don't want to make a mistake because they don't want to let you down.
But can you walk me through a scenario because as a leader I have uh a bunch of employees
I have this weird feeling of like, well, I don't want to be like disliked too much and I d I don't know if I should call this person out on this particular thing. I don't know if I wanna pick that battle right now.
And so for all the listeners who I think I'm pretty average in terms of I a lot of people feel that how I feel. Yeah.
Can you walk through like a conversation as to uh like a productive leader conversation that relates to holding people accountable?
Yeah, well first of all
Yeah, I I I think too many leaders focus on wanting to be liked.
The people that work for
Us don't need another friend. They need actually someone who's willing to step up and lead them. And if you focus on doing that consistently, they will invariably like you.
It's not dissimilar to when you
Mm.
Try to
build any sort of business, if you focus so much on making money, you're probably gonna do something
mediocre. Whereas if you just focus on building something great, you're gonna end up making money.
Yeah.
I I believe that the great cultures are those where feedback is normalized. And when I talk about feedback, obviously I'm talking about praise.
Um when you said
crazy expectations for people on your team. You better be there to celebrate them when they meet or exceed those expectations. A
Well, because it's the right thing to do.
But
B
Because praise is addictive, and when you receive some, you want to receive more.
But sometimes I fear that we focus so much
On praise and
think that that's the only way to build a great culture that we forget about how
powerful criticism can be because
If praise is affirmation, criticism is investment.
The people that work for you.
Definitively are there because they want to grow and become better versions of themselves. And
That means that if you aren't there to
Hold them accountable when they are not being the best versions of themselves. You're not actually
Doing right by them.
I I don't think there are many things a leader can do that are more beautiful than being willing to step outside of your comfort zone.
For long enough.
to invest in someone else's growth. Now
The only way it's an investment if it's done thoughtfully and I I have rules of criticism.
Before you you say those rules just so I understand how many how much staff did you have in in some of across all the restaurants?
Oh, eighteen hundred?
Wow. Okay. And was your retention better than
industry standards. Dramatically so. Yeah, you you killed it there.
Yeah, we did well.
Okay. And what are the rules for criticism?
And by the way, any of these individually, they're
They're pretty simple, right? A criticize in private.
You can praise in public, but criticize in private. The the moment you criticize someone in front of their peers, a wall of shame goes up. They're not going to receive the information you're delivering them.
Two.
Criticize the behavior, not the person.
people inadvertently.
end up talking about the person's shortcomings, as opposed to just focusing on the behavior itself that they're trying to correct.
Three, criticize consistently.
Um, too often we we don't we don't have the energy to call someone out for having done something.
Um and so we wait until the moments that we do, but
When that's the case
Two things become true. One, people aren't sure what right looks like because you only call them out
Every other time they do that thing or
Perhaps even worse, people think you only criticize them when you're in a bad mood.
Which brings a negative stigma to the exchange.
Never use sarcasm.
And criticism?
A lot of younger leaders do that. They think that if they make a joke out of it, it'll be easier to swallow. But joking around about something as beautiful is investing in someone else's growth, I think
Makes a fool of both of you?
So like w like what's like what's an example? You know, like when people are like
Hey, maybe stop being so lay, like da like whatever, trying to like Yeah, so what would you say instead?
They said I you don't we said we were gonna be here at eight, you weren't?
I don't like that. Can you please be here uh at eight tomorrow?
Exactly.
Without emotion.
Yeah.
Which brings you to the next rule. There's no there's no place for emotion and criticism. It's unemotional.
The moment you bring emotion into it, you're listening emotion in the other, and the more someone is emotional when receiving criticism, the more they shut down.
And then finally
You better be praising everyone on your team more than you are criticizing them.
Because if you're not, one of two things is happening. One
You are just the person that
as a tendency to
See all the things that are wrong more than you have the ability to see the things that are right.
Or
You
Have someone in your team that's just not doing enough things well to praise. And in that case, you've failed as a leader by letting them stay there as long as they have.
Alright, so
A lot of people will talk about how you need a million dollars and three years of experience to start a business.
Nonsense. If you listen to at least one episode on this podcast, you know that is completely not true. My last company, The Hustle, we grew it to something like seventeen or eighteen million dollars in revenue.
I started it.
With like
Three hundred dollars. My current company, Hampton, does over ten million in revenue. Started it with actually no money, maybe twenty nine dollars or something like that. Nothing.
And so you don't actually need investors to start a company. You don't need a fancy business plan, but what you do need is systems that actually work.
And so my old company, The Hustle, they put together five proven business models that you could start right now today with under a thousand dollars. These are models that if you do it correctly, it can make money this week. You can get it right now. You can scan the QR code or click the link in the description. Now back to the show.
What were some early stories when you were figuring out unreasonable hospitality
And then
You implemented it and you're like
Oh man, actually something is here. Not only does it make'em feel good, it actually might make me more money.
Yeah.
I mean the hot dog was the origin story. You know, uh you always hear about athletes going to the tapes when they've made a mistake to see what they did wrong to make sure they don't
What
I don't think anyone does often enough is go to the tapes when they've done something right.
To make sure that they continue to do that thing. That's how you put intention to intuition.
And in the hot dog, we we did something.
As
Silly and simple as it was.
That was significant.
And it required being present.
enough to actually pick up on that. It required
realizing that we should stop taking ourselves so seriously because sometimes the silliest things can be the most connective.
And
It required acknowledging this idea.
That
The gestures that are specific to
An individual will always have the greatest impact.
And I I say one size fits one.
Um
And with that we put a system behind it.
So we hired an additional person to our team, someone who was in the dining room with
Only one responsibility.
To be there as a resource to help everyone else bring their ideas to life.
And what was uh
What was their budget? Tell me everything. This is where I this is what I'm what I want to know is the operations. And in particular, a lot of people listening we own internet companies or some type of digital E company, not necessarily
Uh
uh traditional uh r like a restaurant or traditional service industry. So that this is actually what I really, really want to know is operationalizing this. So tell me.
Yeah, so uh listen, in the beginning we didn't put a budget to it. It was just like hey guys, just start doing it and like be reasonable. Don't like get like
be unreasonable with the thoughtness, but like we're not spending a thousand dollars on an idea for someone.
And what was this person's title?
The Dreamweaver.
The Dreamweaver. Okay, and what were they making?
I don't know what restaurant salaries are. They were probably making
twenty five dollars an hour.
Okay. And their whole goal, you said you said y I don't know if you wrote out in a memo or in the job description, you said
Help everyone.
You're just there.'Cause okay, so here's the thing.
Having nothing to do with unreasonable hospitality. Like
Everyone has great ideas. The difference between
Like the people that I think crush it in life and those that don't are the ones that actually decide to bring their great ideas to life.
Right.
No.
The reality is is in the workplace, in most high functioning organizations, people
don't have a ton of bandwidth. This is especially true in a restaurant.
It's not like people
Have an extra thirty minutes in the middle of Saturday night service to go
Work on a little art project.
This person was just there to create bandwidth. So they were there.
Anyone on the team had an idea they could go to the Dreamweaver and be like
Hey.
I need you to go out to the store and get a DVD for the movie seven on the fly, or hey, we need to find sleds immediately, or hey, we need to go get the cotton candy machine from downstairs, or
Hey
Does the toy store sell super stokers? Can we get any of those right now?
Whatever it was.
And that person was just there to execute.
Now, over time we started hiring the Dreamweavers from art schools so they could actually like
Do their own craft work in the moment.
And we just let it fly.
There was one Dreamweaver. The Dreamweaver was responsible for execution. Everyone on the team, though, was in their own way a dreamweaver because they were the one responsible for ideation.
Yeah. Right. It's the people on the front line that are actually connecting with the customers. They're the ones that are picking up on the little things that you can run with.
Um
The Dreamweavers were never given a set budget, although every once in a while, like one, two months a year.
I would look at the Dreamweaver uh line item in the P L, and I'd say to the team, Hey guys, let's rein in a little bit. What was the most expensive thing?
Cost the most expensive thing we ever did.
I don't know. Like
We had these pictures of Miles Davis, these giant photographs of Miles Davis in the kitchen.
One time a guy
um who actually worked for us.
Because I always
Wanted to spend the most money.
on our own people because
If they received the stuff at the highest level possible, they were gonna be more inclined to turn around.
And come up with these things for other people, right? Like
Until you know how good it feels to receive something.
You're not necessarily as inclined to want to put in the work to
To give it to others.
And he loved notorious B. I. G so we like
reprinted all these giant framed photos in our kitchen uh of Biggie, which I mean that was probably
Six hundred bucks or something.
Okay, so w it's not that much money.
No.
Okay. And how and what was the average I I don't I don't remember what it would cost. What was the average table spending? Two grand?
Yeah, it was like four hundred a person.
Okay.
And how many a night were you doing?
Or how many per customer, maybe?
Well,
So here's the thing.
I distill unreasonable hospitality.
the gestures of the the philosophy into three categories. One size fits all.
One size fits some and then one size fits one.
And I think it's important just to explain this because we'll frame the conversation.
One size fits all.
Man, that we looked at the entire experience, every single touch point.
And identified how we could make
As many of them as possible just a little bit more awesome.
So I'll give you an example.
The check.
Right the check. Uh in millions of restaurants in the world at the end of every one of those meals, someone is bringing you a bill.
And yet, in spite of the fact that everyone shares that touch point, I've never seen it approached with any creativity or intention.
Yeah.
And it's a hard part of the meal to get right because
A
Everyone gets really impatient the moment they ask for the check.
If it takes you too long to give it to them, you've ruined the meal.
At the same time, I can't drop it on your table before you've asked for it. Otherwise you think I'm gonna rush you out.
It's especially hard to find any restaurant because
Those are big checks. The moment you realize how much it costs, it's a little bit harder just to love what you just had.
For that reason, no innovation.
But we saw that as an opportunity to do something and overlooked touch point.
So when I knew you were done with your meal.
You hadn't asked the check, but I knew you were done.
I'd go over to your table with a glass for each person at the table and a bottle of cognac.
We pour just a splash of cognac into each class and I'd say this is with my compliments.
In fact, I'm gonna leave the entire bottle here. Please help yourselves to as much as you'd like.
And then I'd put the check down and say your check is here ready whenever you are.
It's a small change.
With a profound impact.
One, no one ever had to wait for the check again.
B no one could ever think we were trying to rush them out. I just gave you an entire bottle of free booze.
It didn't cost very much. Rarely do people drink more than that splash. And yet
At the moment where we brought over that big bill, we match it with a gesture of profound generosity.
And by the way, I've talked to people who dined with us back then.
We were serving some of the best food on the planet. They don't remember a single thing they ate.
But they'll never forget how we made them feel when we gave them that bottle of cognac. There was um Have you read the book Influenced by Robert Chaudini?
No.
Oh man, it's like I'm gonna end this podcast with like a an entire reading list.
It's like considered the the the gospel when it comes to like influence, which is related to marketing, but like
I read it as like a four year old try to make girls. Uh but like
And in that book, Robert uh Choudini tells a story where he he basically like says like a a variety of principles for persuasion.
And
He has studies and experiments to verify or or or or tell the story of each one. And one of the stories is basically he had a waitress
Give someone the bill?
He had waitress B
Give someone the bill and a piece of chocolate.
And he had waitress C go, Here's your bill.
walk away five steps and goes, Oh, I almost forgot. I got this chocolate for you.
And
Option C
Got more tips by a significant amount.
Wow. A huge amount.
And uh, you know, frankly I don't even remember which principle this fall this falls under. I read this like fifteen years ago.
But I remember that one thing and so when you did that
I this may not apply because I don't think you accepted gratuity. But did you if you if you did, did you notice gratuity for the weight weights that went up to the roof because of this? For sure.
For sure. And by the way, that's well documented. Cornell did a study
They did one where they had they compared a thousand diners that give that little mint with the check to a thousand diners that didn't.
And the ones that did on average had eighteen percent higher tips. I I just think generosity begets generosity. That is the rule of reciprocity, by the way. It's called the rule of reciprocity. And here's how and here's how it states. It basically
If I do a favor for you
You will do a favor for me and it can be
Um
significantly outproportioned, but because you now feel like you owe me and h humans hate owing someone. And so I remember reading about this and I went and bought a motorcycle.
back then it was a very cheap motorcycle. I think it was they wanted three thousand dollars or twenty five hundred dollars.
And I showed up with two cans of Coke. And I go, Hey, uh
Yeah, I'm ready to look at your motorcycle. I I met the guy on Craigslist.
By the way, like I was I just there's a gas station here. I got myself a Coke. Do you want one? I thought you might want one.
And
And I uh we had s he had basically said like it's it's three thousand dollars, that's the firm, you know, and I was like, Look, the best I could do is twenty five hundred. What do you say? And he's like, Well
You're a nice guy. You got me a Coke. You got me I I'll do twenty five hundred dollars.
So that was a four hundred ninety nine dollar win on that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's sort of w what it appears as though you did with the cognac, and and that's why I was asking about gr uh gratuity if it went up because of of that gesture. Do you know it was just on the on a Zoom with Ne do you know Rory Sutherland? Do you know who that is?
The marketing guy. Yeah. Uh add ad uh ad agency executive.
Yeah, we were talking about this exact
thing earlier today. He he was talking about how
He ordered a new mattress and pillows from some company and
Got they they just included
Like a duvet set or something.
And he's like, honestly, I'd feel guilty.
If I ever ordered a mattress from anyone else again, but we're juxtaposing that.
against had that same company said
If you order a mattress and two pillows, we will give you a duvet set.
Because then now he thinks he'd earned it by virtue of having
Done what they said.
he needed to do and
It's the uh
I think it's reciprocity combined with surprise and delight. Uh you need to do it without saying you are going to do it in advance for it to have the impact you want it to have.
Did you call unreasonable hospitality back then? What was like your mantra within the company? Unre unreasonable hospitality. Yeah.
Did you notice that profits and revenue went up? And do you think that it was because of that?
Yeah, I think this is the Okay, yes, profits and revenues went way up. I think the
Everyone I've ever seen embrace these philosophies have seen
Financial benefit. And yet
There are some that are reticent to
Because it's that old adage, what gets measured gets managed and it's hard to measure
the impact of these things in the short term.
Right. You need to be willing to commit to ideas for long enough to see them really, truly come to life because
A
Yeah.
the more of an emotional connection people have to what you're doing, the more likely they are to return B.
Whether it's the hot dog or sleds or all these different things we did.
You are giving people stories to tell.
And every dollar I ever spent on unreasonable hospitality was far more impactful than any dollar I ever spent on traditional marketing, because when you give them those stories to tell
What do you think they're gonna do? They're gonna tell them over and over and over again.
Well did were you guys seeding those to I mean if like
the hot dog story, like it got out. D were you the one who told everyone? Because
If I uh
Am I gonna if I'm gonna do this, I'm telling everyone I I've done it. No, we never we never told anyone we did the things in the moment. The hot dog story got out when I wrote the book.
Got it.
But I think if you do these things, y you can be pretty sure that people are gonna
Tell the stories themselves.
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All right.
Back to the pot.
Okay.
Okay, so that's one size fits one.
One size fits some.
is effectively using simple pattern recognition.
Um the reality is in every single business there are things that happen
Over and over again. They're not touch points. They don't happen always for everyone.
But they happen sometimes for some people.
If you've ever
gone to a casual dining restaurant with a kid and they give you the little pack of crayons and the coloring
Mm.
That is effectively pattern recognition.
They've realized kids come in if we have these on hand
It will result in a better experience for the family as as well as the children.
Did you have a unique twist on that particular uh that particular? We did so many different things. We had Lego sets for a while. We had like hatch sketches for a while. We we just cycled through different things.
But
We did like full proper exercises where alongside the entire team
We'd come up with lists of these recurring moments and then
Get creative on how to make our reactions to them.
More awesome.
And by the way, y y you can't do these things effectively unless you do indeed involve the entire team. There's the
I call it famous'cause I think it's famous, but the quote by David Marquet that in most organizations the people at the top have all the authority and none of the information.
While the people on the front line have all the information and none of the authority.
In order to brainstorm like truly significant things within this space, especially
You need to bridge that gap between authority and information.
So were you holding uh like weekly all hands with all eighteen hundred people or sending emails?
No, so uh eighteen hundred people was across the company. We would we would do strategic planning restaurant by restaurant.
Quarterly.
Mm. We did one big one a year.
But then there were all sorts of little meetings that would kind of be scattered through the
But at the end of the day, the number of ideas that came out of one day long strategic planning at the beginning of the year
Would generally take us about a year.
To implement all those ideas.
Um
So you could get enough out of one day.
To really keep you going for a year.
And so you did well uh and so one size fits some.
Is that that's the second one? Yes, I'll give you an example of that. This is my favorite.
A lot of people got engaged at a restaurant.
Um
If anyone's ever gotten engaged at a reasonable restaurant, they poured you free champagne.
Mm-hmm.
You got engaged at the wrong restaurant. But that's a reasonable hospitality.
Now that we had identified this, we had an opportunity to make it as well.
More awesome.
This is what we came up with. Tiffany and Co had their offices across the park.
Oh my god.
One day I went over there and knocked on doors until I found the chief marketing officer, convinced her to give us
One thousand of those iconic Tiffany blue boxes.
Yeah. Each with two champagne flutes in them, put them in the back.
Next time someone got engaged, we poured them free champagne like we always would have, but they wouldn't notice that their glasses looked a little bit different from everyone else's.
And at the end, we'd give them the glasses they toasted their cake into.
That's awesome.
Again.
Three things on that. One, was it less special for them because we had a bunch more in the back? No.
Two.
I have talked to people who got engaged with us.
Who don't remember a single thing they ate.
But they will never forget.
That and
Three, that one didn't even cost us anything.
I mean it costs Tiffany.
a a reasonable amount of money. But I guarantee you they've more than made up on that investment with all the Tiffany things that have ended up on registries.
Dude, that's so good.
And then of course there's one size fits one, which is the Dreamweaver stuff. The reason I say all of them
Is because at eleven Madison we would serve a hundred and ten people a night.
I couldn't do a dreamweaver thing for every single person that came in there.
But
Between one size fits one, one size fits some, and one size fits all, you better believe that everyone was walking out of there having had an experience that
Well
A felt
At least a little bit magical.
I used to run this company called The Hustle. It was the first company that I sold and it and and it was a c a pretty amazing company.
And I'm a self taught copywriter. That's my that was my passion. And the company was built on copywriting.
And one of my philosophies was to alter what I called the forgotten text.
Hm and what that means in practice is
A very specific example is when you would sign up
Like for uh your your conference website, when you enter your email
More often than not, in ninety nine percent of cases
a customer will get an email from MailChimp or Beehive or Convert Kit, whatever, and it's gonna tell you thanks for subscribing, click here to confirm and that's it. It's just like the stock email. Yes.
I wrote the world's greatest welcome email.
And uh I'll have to remember it, but it said
The subject was look what you did, you little jerk.
And uh
And the body it said.
I don't think you realize what just happened.
You just signed up for the best business newsletter on earth. And immediately after doing that, a bell went off in our office in Sa in in in San Francisco. And when that bell went off
Uh Sarah went and did twenty five push ups because she was so excited.
David went and took a shot for some reason.
And Kevin is outside right now hugging a uh an old lady because he's so excited. Look
The I gotta go stop Kevin, but I just want you know how excited I am that you gave us your email. We are tirelessly working on tomorrow's edition.
I hope you love it and just know that we are working really hard to please you. And it went viral.
That that went viral.
And then we took it a step further.
So when you unsubscribe
from an email, you often just see
You are now unsubscribed.
And I stole this one from Groupon.
I'll tell you what Groupon's was, but Groupon, which was an email newsletter company.
There was uh the intern sitting right there and it says here's what just happened when you unsubscribe and it was
the CEO fake throwing coffee in the in the intern's face that said and it said like our intern Kevin must have done something bad to make you unsubscribe.
I'm punishing him. Don't worry, I'm on it.
If you want to re subscribe and give us another chance.
That would mean a lot. Click here. And so the point being is that we worked really hard. So our pop ups that oh no, not another pop up. Well look.
While you're here.
The situation is this. This em this company, it's called the Hustle. It's my company. I run it and we do this we do this newsletter.
Give us your email if you want to get the next day.
And so the whole website
Forgotten text.
I worked really hard to do forgotten text and we got so much
uh back links or you know press because of it.
Do uh first of all, that's brilliant. And
In my like the way I see the world.
There's two reasons why I think it's especially brilliant. One is obvious, the one is m well, they're probably both obvious.
One is I believe the
smallest enhancements to the most overlooked touch points in a guest experience can have the greatest impact on the experience as a whole, because it is you saying very clearly to the people you serve.
We're willing to care about things that no one has ever paused for long enough to consider.
I spent time with a
an auto dealer group in California, right when the book was coming out, and I was talking to them about touch points and they thought I was
And when you think about like a classic car dealer and then I'm talking about unreasonable hospitality, it was like
Oil and water in the beginning.
And I was like, All right, here I have a question. What happens
A week after someone buys a new car when they open the glove compartment for the first time, what's in it? Oh my God.
And they're like nothing. I was like, it's a touch point. That's a part of the experience.
They did something super small.
They started after that putting a Starbucks gift card.
In the glove compartment of every car that's just said, Thank you so much for your business. You ever need anything, give me a call and then whatever, Kevin, the Oh my gosh, that's great.
They call me a year later, they're like, We have never seen a return as big on any marketing investment in the history of our of our Was it just like five dollars? It was a d fifteen dollar gift card, ten buttons. Oh my gosh.
So the o like the the smallest things to the parts that no one has ever thought about
really make a difference. And then B
What I said about the hot dog, like
So many companies have become so focused on perfecting brands that they've stopped pursuing people.
Everyone is taking themselves too seriously.
And the moment you just let yourself be a little sillier, a little more human, a little more connective.
It never
Fail.
That's so good.
I think you guys like this podcast for two reasons.
One is if you are building a business
It's lonely. And listening to Sean and I
We're sort of like your friends.
And the second reason is you know that we are builders. We love building companies.
It's kind of our life's vocation.
So if you have a business that does at least three million dollars in revenue, I think I know exactly what you're experiencing.
You've built a great business. It's working.
And you finally have a second to look up.
You're young, you probably run an internet company in your town, there's a potential that you're a freak, that you have no one else to talk to about growing your company. In fact, when you even go out in public, you probably don't even like telling people what you do for a living because you don't feel like explaining it.
If you fall in this category, that means you're making the biggest decisions of your life, 10, 20 million dollars decisions.
All by yourself alone.
And without that push, in my opinion, the risk is not blowing up.
It's drifting into good enough territory.
Into becoming mediocre.
And the worst thing that can happen to you is ten years from now you look back and you realize I missed this amazing opportunity.
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What are some other interesting stories of people who have implemented this and had almost like a turnaround because
You're telling me these stories. I'm I'm sitting here taking notes on and I'm not taking notes for this podcast. I'm taking notes on what I need to tell my team because I'm like I'm so bought in. I like it I get I get so fired up whenever I hear about this.
But the discipline of following through and and making it part of our culture, that's it it's quite challenging'cause you said you don't see results necessarily right away. It might take a minute. You're taking a little bit of a leap of faith.
I mean, here's another one that I heard recently. And this has been one of the
One of the most fun things for me over the past two years.
Is getting notes from like
People that m run
funeral homes and prison systems and insurance companies and banks and NFL teams and everything in between about all the various ways in which they've manifested the ideas. But
I think this one's quite brilliant and it and it focuses on the beauty of making
things mandatory.
Just like the word criticism has been given a bad rep, and I think it should be destigmatized, so has mandatory. We feel like if we make
Something mandatory for our people to do.
that it's a bad thing, but I I think when you make something mandatory, it's just a meta signal to everyone that works for you that this matters.
So
There's a guy who owns two UPS stores in Sarasota.
And he read the book, really fell in love with it, tried to figure out how to
Bring it to life.
In his space and
I don't think anyone's ever woken up saying, You know where the most hospitable people in the world work? Uh UPS stores, right?
But
He's a big that's a big opportunity, right? Exactly.
Exactly.
So he made a rule.
He mandated.
that everyone on his team, all the people that work the register at the UPS store.
Had to.
One time per shift.
Comp.
A customer.
Up to call forty dollars worth. They had to.
And they had to write it when they were clocking out who they comped and why.
It was like a win, win, win in the most profound of ways.
A
If you're a customer, you go into a UPS store and randomly you get comped for like
Shipping something or copying something.
It's gonna blow your mind, right? You're gonna tell that story a bunch.
B
It ended up being really good for the people that worked there.
Like uh when you're
working at a place like that, you are not accustomed to being on the receiving end of profound appreciation and enthusiasm. And yet we are all human beings.
Those feelings energize all of us and
When you get them, it makes your day better. Full stop. I don't care how
Too cool.
for school you present yourself as being.
The third, and this is what I thought was so fascinating, and when he explained it, it made sense.
Because it was good for the team.
They went from having to do it to getting to do it.
Mm. But only got to do it once.
So now they started engaging and getting to know everyone that came into the store so much more deeply to decide who deserved it the most.
Who was having a hard day and needed something to go right? Who was having a great day and needed a cherry on top?
So even all the customers that did not receive the comp
started having genuinely enjoyable experiences in those stores and
I'm hearing about things like this all the time and it it's just
It's just awesome.
That's great.
Do you have um
A lot of the people who listen to this, maybe they own an ecom store. Um
So they run like a Shopify uh site or they have a s uh a small software company. It's only two or three guys.
Do you have any examples of in particular a website that you've gone to
And you're like they nail it.
I mean
I think mm the story of Chewy
And what they do is
is just my favorite. Do you know do you know what I'm about to say? Yeah. So like uh Chewy, uh you know it's funny, Ryan Cohen, the founder of Chewy, he's now more famous right now because of game stuff and he's being he's this crazy investor, but he started Chewy.
And the premise was like amazing customer service. And I think an example would be like if they heard that your dog died, they would send you flowers or something like that. Yeah. Well certain I mean, this is how it works. You go into Chewy, you subscribe for your dog food, right? You set it up recurring order.
You never have to think about it again.
But eventually your dog is gonna die.
And the first thing you think to do is not to go on Chewy dot com and cancel your dog food order.
So invariably a couple weeks later
As you're mourning the loss of of your dog, and now another bag of food comes.
Yeah, the worst. The worst.
So now you call Chewy, then you cancel it.
And this is what they do.
Every single time.
They obviously apologize for your loss. They credit your account for that last bag of dog food. They can't take it back for healthcode reasons. They encourage you to give it to someone else who needs it.
And then two days later, you get a bouquet of flowers saying sorry for your loss.
Now.
That's pattern recognition.
Which would be uh what one size fits most. Some some.
Some
And maybe those flowers cost them fifteen bucks.
Thing about dog people, when they lose a dog, it's normally just a matter of time before they get another one.
And the same way that Rory is never gonna buy a mattress from anyone else.
I'd be hard pressed to imagine anyone ever buying dog food from anyone else.
Ever again.
Listen, I think that unreasonable hospitality, it happens at the intersection of creativity and intention.
It's being intentional enough to
Pursue relationships.
Um to seek out opportunities.
And
To
Well
care enough to find them and then to do something with them once you do.
And then creativity to
Just to try to figure out what is the most
awesome way you can possibly come up with to respond.
I think it's just as much about creating an environment where your team
Feels like
energized and rewarded and appreciated as well because
It's a two way street. I uh at least for me anyway, I there is nothing that energizes me more than when I get to see the look on someone else's face.
When they receive a gift, I am responsible for giving them and
When you create a culture like this, you're giving everyone on your team the gift of just being able to give gifts. And they don't always need to be lavish or expensive.
They just need to be thoughtful.
Are there any other digital brands that I can go to and and and
document or become a customer of and see
How this is implemented well.
I'm
Consistently drawn
to
Um
The in person.
Examples. But you asking me this makes me
I I feel like you're asking me what is a good movie that I've seen recently. I never have the ability to remember them off the cuff, but Yeah, I'm putting you on the spot and and I can give you an easy out if you want an easy out. Let me think, are there any that I have?
The fact that we can't come up with any off the top of my head.
It's kind of insane, I think. Yeah. Um
Which if I'm listening to this, I'm like oh so the bar's low.
Because by the way.
Uh.
I will I'm gonna uh
Like I would call you out, actually. I would say, uh, so you run this thing called the Welcome Conference. Okay. I'm gonna go to thewelcomeconference.com. I'm gonna go to your website.
I feel like we can make this.
Unreasonably hos hospitable.
Uh funny, we're like we're like two weeks away. Unreasonable hospitality dot com, thewelcome conference dot com.
Of releasing an entire new website.
Uh for both of them.
Because
Our websites kinda suck right now. I'm not gonna lie.
It it it you know, when I'm thinking about all this, I'm like, all right, I gotta go implement all this stuff, but it's like
Shoot, I gotta like go and like design the side and write. It's it's it's hard. It's a marathon. It seems a lot more fun to give someone free UPS. No, but this is what I'll tell you, like
Yeah, I I use the word magic.
A lot.
Because I do believe when you do these things you're you're creating magic. And
There's this quote, you know, Penn and Teller. My my favorite quote about magic comes from Teller. He says sometimes magic is just being willing to invest more energy into an idea.
than anyone else would deem reasonable.
Nothing about this stuff is hard.
It does, however, require being willing to work harder. I I was talking to a a buddy of mine, who's a magician and
He was doing training for the greatest friend ever to hang out with. Dude, I have a lot of magician friends. I got you. You really? Yeah, I do.
They must have read the pickup artist books that I used to read, because back then all the pickup artist books they tell you to learn magic tricks. Everyone says that works, but I don't think for many of these guys it worked until more recently.
But he he was hired to go train Paul Rudd
Um
Magic. I think for Ant Men.
And so it goes to the director's house, he and his assistant go to hang out for a day with Paul Rudd and
And the director.
And they go through a bunch of magic tricks. They're showing him, teaching him how to do it, the whole thing. And at the end they're about to leave and the director's like, Come on, show me your best trick. He's like, Well, I kinda just showed you all my stuff.
And the guy's like, No, no, no, come on, your best trick.
And he's like, all right, uh
Do you have a backyard? I think on the backyard.
And he says to Paul, he goes, Hey
Can you just point
Into the yard. Any direction in this yard.
Kinda like gesturing.
behind the house.
And name a card.
Ace two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, jaquen king, and the suit.
So like I Paul said like eight of hearts.
And pointed.
So they walk out in that direction.
They says to his assistant, Hey, give me the shovel.
The assistant reaches into his bag, gives him the shovel, he digs into the ground, pulls out the eight of hearts out of the ground. Oh my god.
Now he's not just there to
do magic tricks for Paul Ruddy's there to show him how to do magic.
So he shows him a video of them at the guy's house the night before digging holes and burying all fifty two cards in the the lawn. No shit. And he did it as a grid, so no matter where Paul pointed, he could figure it out.
Um
That was a lot of work.
But Paul's reaction when he pulled an eight of hearts out of the ground
Made all that work worth it.
That's what magic is.
And that's what I think hospitality, when pursued unreasonable, has the capacity to be.
Man, that's awesome.
Do you
love being an author significantly more than running a restaurant because
One sounds way easier than the other.
It's interesting. I I don't know. I mean I love
What I did. Like I loved it. Like
I love
working like a maniac to build a world and then getting to stand at the front door of that world and welcome people into it. It's one of my favorite things.
I don't get
The gratification now.
Of like
sitting in someone's living room and watching them read the book. Like there I got the gratification of watching people experience the thing that I'd built. But I bet you it's it's been a nice season of life. I mean I don't know the finances. I bet you it's made uh a really good living and it's been nice to Well no, so that's my point. And I love this. It's hard for me to compare which one I love more
But I certainly don't miss it. Like I don't miss what I did because I'm so loving what I'm doing now. I and what are you doing now? You're you're you you wrote the book. I imagine you're speaking.
And you had the conference. So I have the welcome conference in New York. We do an unreasonable hospitality summit in Nashville. I write a newsletter called Premail that comes out every other week.
So you
You own a media company.
Kind of, yeah.
I'm also a writer and a producer on The Bear.
No.
Which is fun.
I didn't know. I thought it was just for that one episode. It was I started writing and producing the following season.
Is that awesome? Man, that sounds awesome. Dude, it's so fun.
And that whole team is just the best and
What's that main um what's the actor's name? Jeremy Allen Wyatt.
I mean he seems awesome. He is
A awesome, but then just be w wildly talented and exceptionally humble.
So do you get to hang out with all these guys and just see how it's made? I mean that seems like a one fantastic job. I'm in Chicago onset with them.
And Maddie Madison, I think he's fantastic. He is the best. He is a ridiculous and incredible human being.
That's so cool. There's um
A whole in s there's all these Instagram there's this idea in men's fashion or uh menswear.
And the idea is like um
Uh for certain people, if you try too hard, it's like the clothes are wearing you. You're not wearing the clothes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And there's all and it it's called um
Sprezz Sprezzatura. Yes, Sprezzatura. And then there's Manny Matheson who's always wearing the club. And there's and and he's the example. So presatura, I've talked about this pod. It's it's an Italian word. It basically just means effort effortlessly cool, which is like it's like um
Uh uh two thousand dollar beautiful suit, but you're wearing like dirty boots. And because of that you're cool.
I'm not I don't have that, by the way. I like I'm not I don't have that grasp on menswear. I wear like a T shirt and jeans at this point. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah, you you kinda had it in a way because of because of your company. Um and and Maddie Madison, is there anyone listening in The Bear, he's uh I don't what's his name in the bear.
And he is kinda they kinda portray him as this kind of s silly, goofy, doofus guy. But in reality he is like a like a very gregarious guy and he's huge. He's a b he's a big person. But he's got tattoos all over his face and he wears the coolest cloth on Instagram. But it doesn't look like clothes.
that he went and bought from a thrift shop. It looks like clothes that he's owned for twenty years and they got this beautiful like wear on it. And looks like he just wakes up and magically a new outfit was like draped upon him in the middle of the night by some ethereal
Yeah, he's got it. So he he he's like that in real life.
No, yeah, he's he's amazing. He's so he's so sweet.
Well, and what's crazy is a I'm sure you could speak to this and I would like to hear w some stories on this, but
People in the restaurant industry, if you own a restaurant
It seems like most of them who are quote successful, they're actually still kind of broke.
And they're working their asses off.
Yeah.
I mean here's here's the problem
I think there's a couple of problems.
A lot of people that open restaurants
didn't like work their way up through the business in a way to make sure they really understood the business side of restaurants.
It's like anything. I don't think you can succeed financially unless you are willing to be as creative in pursuit of making money as you are in pursuit of the experience you're building for people.
I think a lot of restaurants are just too small.
And the economics of a small restaurant are just hard to really
Hm make work.
Until you start opening
So many restaurants.
That you're running around like crazy and you're so distracted that the quality of the restaurants start to suffer.
Now there are some people.
that have done it extraordinarily well and have figured out how to balance art and commerce and
Who who do you put in that bucket?
I mean Kevin Baum.
And Rob Cadz. They have a company out of Chicago called the Boca Restaurant Group. I think they have like
Thirty six restaurants or something.
Right, because here's the reality.
Okay, you need a good general manager to run a restaurant.
Right. Like you need someone that's great at
Taking care of the guests and m managing the team and honestly the skills that are required to do that well are not that different.
Whether you're working at a forty C Bistro or
A sixty seat three Michelin star restaurant.
And yet.
And then the cost of that person these days is somewhere between
Depending on what market you're in.
Ninety thousand dollars to one hundred and eighty thousand dollars.
It's not that big a swing.
And so you can be doing five million dollars a year paying that or
twenty million dollars a year paying that, right? And uh the margins
Just become
really, really, really hard.
When you're not doing enough volume.
And so like you can do volume if you're doing fast casual Chick fil A McDonald's over the course. Wha w well when you say volume, do you mean like the number of seats at a t like literally just the number of customers? Number of seats and times n average check.
So just the the we we said A A O V so like the the average customer um uh value.
And so
And like it doesn't take that much more work to run a fifteen million dollar a year restaurant than it does a five million dollar a year restaurant. And so like
What's the difference? So like you're saying it doesn't
Take that much work to get
average customer order to be a hundred dollars versus or the difference between running a hundred dollar ahead restaurant versus a twenty dollar ahead restaurant is not significant? The amount of work that goes into it is not that different.
Nor is the amount of work that goes into running a
twenty seat restaurant versus an eighty seat restaurant.
You need the same number of general managers, the same number of chefs. You need some more
Obviously your variable expenses are gonna be higher.
But most of the fixed costs are relatively the same. Your rent's gonna be higher in a bigger restaurant, but
These are all such small percentages compared to the top line that
I always encourage people when they say they want to open a restaurant to work in one for long enough to actually make mistakes on someone else's time before they gotta open one.
And then
To open one that's big enough.
That it actually is worthwhile doing.
If I had to guess
You have a notes
on your iPhone where you have all of these interesting restaurant concepts or angles or
sound bites that are interesting to you.
And you don't want to do them now.
And you may never do them, but y they they fascinate you.
Is there any is that true and if yes.
Is there anything on that list that you could talk about?
I mean listen, I I think that
the fashion of restaurants is not dissimilar to the fashion of jeans, right? Like
We want skinny jans, then fat jans, then skinny jans, then fat jans, and it kinda the pendulum shifts back and forth. I think for a little while there restaurants started getting way too complicated.
Um and I'm excited about the return to simplicity that's happening right now where
People are realizing that with everything going on in the world, the human moments need to be as human as humanly possible. And the places I'm drawn to, like
There's a restaurant in New York City called Res Dora.
And it's just
Unbelievable pasta in a beautiful room served delightfully well.
I'm I'm drawn to more
The kind of restaurant.
That creates the conditions for genuine connection.
with my wife and six friends and we
We rented a house uh
in Mikinos in Greece last week.
And the people that own the house every morning we'd wake up
And they'd set this long table for us with breakfast. So there's Greek yogurt and fruit and some bacon and eggs and
A fresh loaf of bread every morning. And we'd sit down
And no one had to order anything.
And it was like this beautiful
Moment.
I feel like that's a restaurant that doesn't exist yet.
And I would love to see it exist. Like
Where you just sit down with the people you love.
And the food's just there.
And you just get into it.
I want
I'm drawn.
To go to and perhaps
in my imagination when I don't have to deal with the realities of actually doing it.
Dream about building restaurants that
Are less about impressing people by what you can do and more just extending an invitation for them to reconnect with one another.
Last couple of questions. Did you um
I've heard stories and
I am um
I respect.
uh the food industry, but like I it that's not my passion. You know, I I'm a very I'm a much simpler eater.
And what little I do know is like I've read stories about like the the Michelin star thing and um
And how like some chefs will like end up giving it back.
because they play to the critics sometimes and it kinda becomes overwhelm uh overwhelming for a variety of reasons.
Did you ever feel
When you're when you were building a restaurant, did you ever
feel the tension of playing for critics and awards and playing for customers and also
Doing things that you just think.
'Cause they're dope.
Yeah.
Um
Yeah.
It was a tension that I felt m more acutely earlier in
my career and and our journey towards success than I did later.
I think in the beginning, listen, you have to play the game a little bit.
You can't get people to pay attention to you unless you've achieved some level of critical success. And that means
Doing the things that you aren't necessarily inclined to want to do in order to get to where you n need to get. So
I'll give you an example.
I my first big goal was I wanted four stars in the New York Times. There's only seven restaurants in New York with four stars.
We needed to get that. That was the starting point.
Once you're a four star restaurant, then you're gonna be full all the time and
If you want to be the best at something, that's the first stop along the way, especially if you well, not especially if you are in New York.
Now when I looked at the four star restaurants at the time
They were on like the Upper East Side. They were all in midtown. They were like
Fancy places.
And so
I don't believe there should be a dress code in a restaurant. I think that you're there to invite people as they are, but we had to have a dress code.
Um
We had to have it w we never were jackets required, but
There was like a proper dress code, no hats, no t shirts, whatever it was.
The day we got four stars, the dress code went away.
Like w there were certain things we had to do in order to get a seat at the table, and then once we were there we had the freedom and the confidence to start doing things our own way.
Over time what I learned
Um
was that
If I consistently was delivering the thing I wanted to receive.
It was always gonna resonate more with the world.
And so
Playing the game got us to a pretty good level, but

Starting to just do what I wanted to do and not what I thought other people wanted us to do.
was the thing that ultimately got us to the top.
One of my
kind of joys of this podcast is finding people
who uh our listeners don't already know and we kinda like uh
You know, we we we said like this this we we put our stamp, we're like this person's amazing and and hopefully we'll hopefully in some way we're like a little bit of a taste maker because we have we have shown them something new. Yeah.
You're already a huge deal.
And you are you've been circling around the business circle and everything for for a while. We definitely haven't discovered you, but
It it would give me so much joy if someone listens to this and feels inspired because they hadn't previously heard about you and
And and
And now know about unreasonable hospitality just for the sake of
Excellent.
of pursuing excellence. And that's something that I'm very passionate w about right now. I wasn't always passionate about that.
Um and now I I I don't think that comes naturally to me. For for a long time my attitude was
It's good enough. Move forward.
Aggressively move forward.
Um, and I'm trying to fight that.
And I'm trying to be more excellent. And I hope that the listener because I know I feel this way. Yeah. Whenever I talk to you, whenever I read about you, whenever I listen to a podcast with you, I feel that. I feel the need to be more excellent than I currently than I've currently been behaving. Thank you, man. Thank you. And I and I hope we've given that to to our audience. Well to anyone out there listening who
This is the first time we've run into one another.
It's good to meet you. Kinda. Yeah.
What do you what do you want to promote? Do you have anything? Where what do what did you what's your social media uh platform of preference, if any? Yeah, the t uh the two things I'm excited to promote are A, the newsletter premium, which is one of my favorite things to do. Like
It is the stories that I shared today. It's me sharing one of these stories every couple of weeks, just things I'm seeing out in the world that inspire me. You can sign up for that at unreasonable hospitality dot com.
And then second, my next book on reasonable hospitality, The Field Guide, which is like
My version of a workbook to really like go through with a team and bring these ideas to life.
comes out.
April of next year, but is available for pre order.
Now. And I'm
So excited about it.
I just send it up to pre mail and I'm absolutely gonna buy that. I would love that. That seems to be uh
the thing now in the book industry is having like
Uh a workbook to accompany the book.
We made it much harder on ourselves than we needed to. It's like this four color, it's almost like a graphic novel version of a workbook.
I did it with this design firm called Invisible Creature. They've done work with like NASA and Pixar and
Oh, I love the I love workbooks. I'm I I fall for it every time. And by the way, I just had it for pre mail. Your welcome email. I'm actually not I don't even want to say what it is, because hopefully you'll get more subscribers.
You're welcome, Evil's fantastic. Thank you.
And like I've I've only obviously I'm doing this, I can't read the whole thing, but like I'm seeing like the I've I've read the first sentence, I'm hooked and I'm scrolling, I'm like, Oh, this is a whole story.
Here's the background.
This is awesome. There we go, dude. That's that's high praise.
Yeah, this sucks, but the welcome email is okay. The website absolutely does not suck. I would just uh I just mess in with you.
This is awesome. We appreciate you. Thank you so much. That's it. That's the pod.
I feel like I can rode
Well I know.

I'll put my lawn in it like my days off on the boat. Let's travel. Let's take a quick break because as you know, we are on the HubSpot Podcast Network, but we're not the only ones. There's other podcasts on this network too, and maybe you like them. Maybe you should check them out. One of them that I want to draw your attention to is called Nudge by Phil Agnew. And whether you're a marketer or a salesperson and you're looking for
The small changes you can make, the new habits you could do, the the small decisions you could make that will make a big difference. That's what that podcast is all about.
Check it out. It's called Nudge.
And you can get it wherever you get your podcast.