Tim Ferriss: 4 Science-Backed Tools That Rewired Decades of Childhood Trauma & Depression

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/1ae97942f79bd51e

every mental health complication or diagnosis is increasing. And I've worked with different scientists and done a lot of experimentation on myself, having grown up with multiple depressive episodes every year to see if there are root causes that we can address. And so I'll just throw out a few things that have been very, very helpful.
First, there's brain stimulation. When I did this, I had months of no anxiety.
Then there's something called Vegas nerve stimulation, and one of the most heavily cited scientists of the last 30 years has seen a wild collection of benefits. So let's talk about the Tim Ferris has become a performance hacking expert after speaking with over 800 influential voices on his podcast.
Now he's taking the most valuable frameworks and techniques to help you optimize productivity, health.
And performance.
Tim.
The variety of things that you write about, talk about is so wide. So what is the question that most people should ask you?
How do you break down complicated subjects and accelerate your ability to learn? Because time is one of our most valuable non-renewable resources. And so I have a framework that you can apply to any subject matter. Which consists of the 80-20 principle, which is picking the 20% to focus on that will give you 80% of what you want. For instance, there's hundreds of thousands of words you could learn.
in Spanish, but with the most frequently used 1500, you can get to reasonable conversational fluency in almost any language in eight to twelve weeks. And if you figure that out, you're ahead of 99.9% of the world. What do you think is the question most people want to ask you? So there's a lot of questions around mental health.
And I feel like I have a moral obligation to help people because I was uh sexually abused by a babysitter's son.
On a
Weekly basis.
I was this close.
To killing myself.
And it can have a lot of effects, but these are things that you can slowly chip away at, and instead of feeling like you're held captive by them, feel like
you can take the pain and make it part of your medicine.
So
Just give me thirty seconds of your time.
Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.
But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.
And if you enjoy what we do here.
Please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.
Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guest that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
Thank you.

You're a r remarkably interesting individual, in part because
the variety of things that you write about, talk about

Is so wide.
But you're you're hard to to put into any particular box. So I my first question to you is how do you think about
the work you do and how do you s sort of like self define if you do it all?
Who you are and what your mission
Is
I think of myself as a
Self experimenter slash student and teacher in that order.
The purpose though ultimately is to try to find simplicity through
Complexity or topics that can be complicated.
and then provide some type of recipe or algorithm that people can test.
With
Low risk and hopefully a decent amount of upside.
probably a good place to start, which is learning how to learn. And especially in a world that's changing at such speed, there's a lot of people that are being forced into relearning of some sort, whether it's professionally or in other domains. So meta learning, I've never heard this term before.
How how do I what is meta learning and how do I learn how to learn better? I would love to because I spend so long as you do speaking to really interesting people. I sometimes
worry that some of that information's being wasted. Yeah.
The basic idea is this, that
Rather than
Treat different
subjects or fields as these silos that need to be figured out independently.
How can you develop just a broad framework that you can apply to any subject matter?
And the acronym that I generally recommend, folks, DSS.
Deconstruction, selection.
Sequencing stakes. There's deconstruction.
Which is taking a
fairly ambiguous goal like learn to swim.
Yeah.
Or
learn Japanese.
None of those are actually very descriptive.
Right. So deconstructing any one of those is taking
Let's just use Learn to Swim as an example and breaking it down into constituent parts.
Right. And you can you can do that very effectively with the help of a an expert. You can try to do it yourself. But for instance, I mean, if you want to find
a silver medalist from the Olympics two Olympics ago. You can probably get
On a Zoom call with them for

$100 an hour, maybe$50 an hour, like you do have access to world class talent, then they would help you figure out all right, there are all these different possible components.
When you get to the next part, which is selection, you're picking the
20%. This is the 80-20 principle, right? Pareto's law. So you're picking the 20% that will give you 80% of what you want. Let's just use language learning in that case. Well.
You can very easily find
word frequency lists. So for any given language like Spanish, sure, or in English, hundreds of thousands of words you could learn. But with the most frequently used 1500.
you can get to reasonable conversational fluency in almost any language in eight to twelve weeks.
Without question, if you approach it methodically. But you need the right material first. And then the next S is sequencing, putting it in the right order.
And I feel like this is the magic sauce that gets lost a lot, which is what is a logical sequence?
for learning any given skill.
What do you practice first? So in the case of swimming, for instance, forget about breathing. Like you need to figure out like fuselage right, fuselage left, and gliding, kicking off a wall in the shallow end of a pool before you ever think about breathing and getting comfortable putting your head underwater, et cetera, et cetera. So there's the deconstruction.
Selection. Sequencing and then the last S stands for stakes, which means incentives.
So how do you ensure
that you will do actually what it is you say you're committing to doing. If more information were the answer, we'd all be billionaires with six pack abs. So information is clearly not sufficient. It's necessary, but not sufficient. Incentives drive behavior change.
So you need good intentions are not enough.
Even a system is not enough. You need strong incentives. So
Right. You could give
Uh
five hundred bucks to a friend or a hundred bucks, whatever. Does the the amount doesn't really matter. And if you don't do what you say you're gonna do, they donate it to like your most hated political candidate in your name.
Right? That's another one that I've seen work really well.
That's it. That D S S.
Deconstruction, selection.
Sequencing stakes. And if you just check those boxes moving that order.
uh your ability to learn will hockey stick in a really meaningful way.
And what's also important to realize when you're trying to tackle any
new skill. Doesn't matter what it is.
There will it will not be just a linear climb.
from you know bottom left to upper right. But if you know in advance that those are coming.
then you can have a plan for it and weather the storm. So that's also very important. If people expect some kind of like linear incremental progress, it just ain't gonna happen. And so most people quit before they hit any real inflection points.
And how does one know what to pursue? Like how do you decide what's worth pursuing? Is there a framework for knowing what should be on the Sunday shelf and what should be
Today. Today's work.
I do think about this a lot.
And I've used this for a very, very long time, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. I've refined it here and there.
Almost everything I do is a six to twelve month project.
with lots of two to four week experiments within that six to twelve months. I do not have and I've never had a long term
Career plan. Five years, ten years.
If you have a reliable five to ten year plan, you're going to be playing so safely within the bounds of your capabilities that I feel like you're selling yourself short. So for me, it's
projects and just going
one hundred percent into those projects.
But how do you pick the project?
I pick the projects based on
relationships.
And skills. So
new relationships or deepening important relationships.
and my learning curve.
skills I'm going to learn.
And there's a condition though.
Those relationships and those skills have to be able to transcend that project.
I'll give you an example. If I have a project which is working on a startup as an advisor.
That startup was stumble upon.
Okay, so I'm working on Stumble Upon. Way back in the day, Stumble Upon was a huge deal. It delivered a lot of web traffic to various websites. It's kind of like a Pandora for websites.
year or two into that. Didn't go anywhere.
But
Who was it I spent all my time with at stumble upon? It was the founder named Garrett Kemp.
And I became really close friends. I learned a ton about web traffic. I was also able to use my own website and blog as a
Experimental.
destination. Right. So there's upside even if it went to zero for me.
And few years later
I get a text from Garrett. We meet up to talk about this new idea, which is solving the taxi problem in San Francisco.
And then shortly thereafter it was called Uber Cab LLC and I became advised by that and I could give you
twelve more examples like that. Where like
The first project failed.
But I became friends with pr with person A or B, learned C and D.
And those were applied two projects later to something that was a home run. And should everybody at every stage in their journey have the same
Framework.
Or you know,'cause if you think about the the different things one could acquire from like resources, reputation, knowledge, skills, um, network.
If I'm eighteen and broke, should I be aiming at the same things as if I'm
Tim Harris.
My instinct is to say yes.
Mm-hmm. And the reason I say that is that
Lady Fortune has a lot to say about what happens. There's so many things outside of your control.
that whatever game you choose to play
requires a system that allows you to survive a
A string.
A very bad luck.
Everything snowballs over time.
and compounds and it's really hard to lose.
long term.
As long as you are not over indexing and betting too much on any one project.
Say financially.
Uh you need to be
able to withstand as a team or as an individual.
A period of very bad luck.
Mm-hmm.
in order for the law of big numbers and statistics to work in your favor with a system that gives you a slight edge.
Um
So that's just my lens on the world in general.
at least professional choices. And I would say you mentioned a couple of other things, right? So like reputation and so on.
I feel like a lot of those are second order effects. They happen automatically if you're optimizing for the relationships and skills.

So uh this comes back to the sequencing, right? So it's like which which is the lead domino?
Like if you have twelve dominoes, you'd kinda have to decide in which order you're gonna stack them. So that
You knock over the small domino.
Knock over the bigger domino, then the bigger, then the bigger, then the bigger.
And over time.
If you're thinking about doing two projects a year.
Let's just say they're six months each.
That's gonna add up.
It's gonna add up. So you can afford to be.
Long term greedy instead of short term greedy. Is that compassion.
I
Uh I like energy over passion for a couple of reasons because you could have passion between the bed sheets, you could have the passion of the Christ, you had a different type of passion. I don't like imprecise terms. Energy for me, very simple. It's like are you more awake or are you sleepy?
Do you do you feel like you can do this for another five hours? Do you feel like you want to stop in fifteen minutes? These are
almost biological questions.
Next biological state question. So it's it's pretty intuitive for people to get to a yes or no.
One of the subjects I've been thinking a lot about recently.
Why have I been thinking about this more recently?
Mm today.
Just a series of conversations I've had on the show which make I've kind of
pushed me closer to trying to answer this question is about
About meaning and purpose.
And
I guess religion.
Because actually it's only in recent history that we've had so many answers to some of these bloody questions like the the
Solar eclipse, we now know what's going on there. It's not God.
Testing us. So the the Vikings are throwing that like
That spears on it.
We know what it is now. So
Not believing
Atheism, agnosticism, is that a fairly new construct? And are we not meant to
No so much.
Humans need to be able to do it.
Certainty.
They need
Something to believe.
And if your belief is that
non belief is the way. Well guess what? I mean that's a belief.
Okay. Right. So I would say that
My experience is if you want to experience
self-transcendence, which I think is critical for mental health.
You don't need
religion per se.
What you
You can have I think a very
wonderful life without religion. I don't think it's possible to have a wonderful life without awe and wonder.
And those are things you can architect.
Those are things you can very much architect and engine and schedule in your life.
Why?
Have
veganism and CrossFit done so well.
They're religions.
I mean, effectively. They may not have a god per se. Yeah.
But certainly they have.
thought leaders, the classmen before his fall from grace. And so on.
uh various athletes and so on. But it's like
Clear rules.
Community.
Self enforcing.
Uh describing life sports.
Yeah. I mean it's like this is religion.
Just goes by another name.
It's a lot of the
behaviors, collective behaviors.
and tenets of religion just lacking the R word.
What you worship.
Yeah, I knew that was coming. Yeah, you see. Uh I think the risk for me is that I feel like I have a moral obligation to
help people, which can turn into a bit of a savior complex because of a lot of the pain that I've suffered in the past.
Uh
I feel like I am
Not necessarily uniquely suited, but I have
the the experience and the perspective that allows me to be credible when talking to people who are experiencing certain types of pain.
And that can become a huge unhelpful.
Self imposed burden.
Where I feel a moral obligation to do things.
at the expense of my own mental health or physical health.
So I would say.
That's something that I have very clearly on my radar as of a few years ago.
Uh
When did the first domino fall in that regard? In terms of
Uh you mean
Just general challenges personally.
Yeah.
Uh well I was uh might as well dig into it. So uh
I was uh sexually abused by a babysitter's son from two to four.
On a
weekly basis, I would say. Very clear memories of all of it.
And
That will shape you.
I mean that will definitely shape you.
And it can have a lot of effects.
It can rob you of agency. It can certainly make you or contribute to
Me being hyper vigilant.
I'm very slow to trust.
And
So on and so forth, right? Like that is a formative experience at a formative time.
And
Then later.
Had
I think number one, a genetic predisposition, if you just look at my family to major depressive disorder.
And
that showed up as, let's call it on average starting in early adolescence, like three to four.
multi-week or multi-month depressive episodes.
Per year.
That is
Um
half of your lived time.
And
For people who may have experienced something like this.
I will say that there are tools at work. So now
Never thought it would be possible, but I would say now I have
one depressive episode of a few weeks.
At most.
Every two to three years.
Yeah.
Now the juxtaposition between those two
People.
is hard to overstate.
Those are those are two fundamentally different experiences of being a human.
And
Um
A lot of it ties back to some of the levers I was talking about.
Right, metabolic psychiatry, psychedelic assistant therapy.
Bioelectric medicine including accelerated TMS. I
These things for certain people
really work and can be durable. They're not one and done.
Very few things are.
But uh these are things that you can slowly chip away at and become familiar with and
instead of feeling like you're held captive by them.
Feel like
You can mould
The experience.
into something that is at least not disabling.
Sometimes you can make it enabling. I remember a
S very good psychotherapist said to me.
Maybe
Five years ago, six years ago.
Take the pain and make it part of your medicine.
And it was basically like
All that stuff is horrible.
Nothing can excuse it.
Take that pain and made it make it part of what you offer the world.
And
There was I I would say the combination of that statement.
And also Covid.
during which my girlfriend at the time because she knew about my history.
Very few. At that time there were maybe two people in the world who knew about it.
Two long term ex girlfriends I've been with for like five to six years each.

Yeah. Parents didn't know. Parents didn't know. Really.
Yeah.
And
I

During COVID, just as it was getting fully ramped.
And
I had always planned on writing a book about it.
or like my healing journey after my parents passed away. Cause I didn't want them to blame themselves.

And
My girlfriend at the time over Emile said something that had a huge impact, which was
Have you ever thought about how many people are gonna pass away?
from natural causes or from COVID or anything else.
before you ever have a chance to write this book.
Because you're probably not going to write that book for 10, 15 years.
Think of all the people you could have helped that you didn't help.
And I was like
Okay. Maybe I should workshop it.
on a podcast, but keep in mind, none of my family knew.
And so I was very fortunate to have a very close friend who's based here in New York City, Debbie Millman, Design Matters Podcast, one of the longest running podcasts in the world.
Wonderful human.
And she disclosed to me a number of years back for the first time in full fidelity.
extended childhood sexual abuse. And we talked about it.

And
I came clean with her after that conversation with my girlfriend and I asked her if she would be open to having a conversation with me that we could record.
But as a conversation because I knew I couldn't do it as a monologue. I just knew I couldn't do it.
And I told her in advance, I said, I have no idea if I'm ever gonna share this.
But I feel
I feel compelled.
to at least record it.
And uh so we did.
and ended up publishing that, I want to say, in September of 2020.
Something like that.
And uh
Holy shit.
I would say
The most shocking thing about that to me.
I knew the statistics, right? But statistics are very impersonal.
Like these these these types of abuse, this type of sexual abuse is incredibly prevalent.
Not just
Uh involving
young girls, but also involving a lot of young boys.
I probably had
A quarter?
to a third of my close, close friends reach out to me.
for the first time to talk to anyone.
And confess that they had had
some type of similar experience.
I I mean the percentages were staggering.
Um
That was really hard.
Um
I was willing to absorb it. I have a lot of capacity for absorbing that type of thing, but it was hard because I would get these tearful voice memos.
from guys who'd never told anyone, giving me graphic details of everything that happened. It's just gut wrenching.
I remember walking up and down.
My driveway.
Just like
tears running down my face and like I don't cry much. That's not really a thing for me.
But
Just the brutality of it.
And uh then in retrospect.
Seeing so many things.
coalesce where I'm like, oh.
That explains all of these unanswered questions I had about that friend. And also for me, looking back, again, hindsight being 2020, for a long time I had, let's just call it
To pick a number out of thin air. It's like okay.
seven mental health psychoemotional challenges I need to address. And I was viewing them as independent problems to address.
But
when I was willing to reopen the door and look at the childhood abuse. Everything was tied to that.
And
Sometimes you just have to
You know, put on your gas mask and go into the cellar.
And contend with that.
And there's no one right way to do it. Psychiatry is still in the dark ages. It's where surgery was.
three hundred years ago.
But
Still, there's certain things that work, often without knowing.
The mechanism.
seem to help a lot of people. So there there are tools.
I think internal internal family systems.
created by Dick Schwartz is very interesting.
The MDMA assisted psychotherapy, certainly for PTSD, very interesting and generally well tolerated.
Not right for everybody.
And then
A number of the other things that I mentioned, uh family constellation therapy also
Quite helpful for a lot of people.
But
Uh
It's not insurmountable.
What I would not say.
Is that
Some people and I think that
I would love to be able to do this, but I just can't get there.
Or who would say, like, I don't regret it.
I'm glad it happened because here's the silver lining. No.
Like if I could control Z and remove that stuff, a hundred percent I would.
And it did a lot of damage.
But
It gives me a credible voice when I am talking to people who have had these experiences.
And that is valuable.
Can you explain to me what you've learnt about how
Oh, you were two years old at the time. Yeah. Between the age of two and four, you said. Mm-hmm.
Wha what is
I'm I'm kind of asking about the mechanism here. What is happening in
a two to four year old child's brain.
that causes the damage.'Cause presumably at two years old you don't
understand what's happening. You don't understand what this individual, this person who's older than you is doing and the context of it.
Yeah. So I'm I'm I'm I'm trying to understand how what the mechanism of harm is to a to a an innocent child who doesn't understand
Understand.
the context of what's going on here.
Don't think anyone can really answer that particularly well with high conviction, but what what I'll say is that
Uh
I am blessed and cursed with a
Near photographic memory for some things.
Yeah.
So you have the original
injury.
But
If you have
As I do.
Which is weird, but like I can draw the floor plan of almost any building, any restaurant I've ever been in.
Even once. I don't know why that is.
But I can do that. Now
There are upsides to that. There are a lot of downsides too in the case of abuse.
And
As you have greater and greater
ability to navigate the world and realize what has happened, what is happening, what might happen.
And you can recontextualize.
High fidelity memories.
Well then you realize
that that thing that was very weird.
At the time?
was a lot more than just weird.
Right. It was just strafe.
Exploitation.
And
Abuse. So
That's the best answer I think I can give to that question.
It's similar to what Lisa Doctor Lisa Feldman
told me, she was a neuroscientist who said she told me this story. It's obviously an an anecdote, so it's an N of one.
Um so obviously taken with caution, but she she told me the story of a young
woman who was abused by her
Uncle.
And um
Lived a normal life, everything was fine, slept well.
Mm-hmm. Then watched Oprah.
No brahat on there.
An array of women that were abused.
Yeah.
And she recontextualized what happened to her and from that day onwards she had all the symptoms of someone who was abused. She was had sleep disruption, health disruption, all these things. Because she'd suddenly, as you used that term, reconceptualized actually what happened there. Yeah.
This may you know it's
Yeah, I mean look, I think people who've been abused
R
Those who survive and do well.
Afterwards, in some way.
Are become very good.
By force.
By necessity at compartmentalizing.
And uh if you look at some of the
very, very top tier.
Military.
Um
special forces units and so on.
The percentages of those guys who've been abused very high.
No.
Why why would that be an asset?
Well, if you're in battle.
If you're in a chaotic environment where people are dying or at risk of dying.
And
You need to
Act.
Effectively and calmly.
And the most
Disruptive, unpredictable environment imaginable?
Compartmentalizing is a superpower.
Oh.
Where you can basically detach.
and take this observer status almost as if you're watching yourself.
Doing.
you know, kill and capture raids or whatever it might be. Uh
But when some of those folks come back to civilian life
The compartmentalization is a severe handicap and disruptor in family life.
Right. So that superpower becomes a super weakness.
And
I think that that is true outside of the military for people who survive abuse.
They may bury it.
completely, put under lock and key subconsciously. So they don't even
have explicit recall of the event.
Until perhaps there's some
Trigg triggering catalyst that brings it back up.
They might just say, Hey, look, that happened, it's terrible.
Like.
No need to dwell on the past. I want to move forward, which I think, frankly, is a viable
Strategy.
I don't think everyone needs to go.
you know, put on their hazmat suit and unearth everything bad that has ever happened to them. I don't think that is
automatically productive or helpful.
uh can make people really despondent.
Because you can't fix the past.
Right. Um
So I would say that in in my case, that compartmentalization.
What's uh
on some levels very enabling.
Right, like I could
Outlast, out endure.
a lot of people in sports and work.
My pain tolerance was incredibly high.
Uh but there's a
There is a price to be paid when you cauterise.
certain aspects of yourself. And
disallow certain types of emotions.
Like there are prices to be paid. And
Um
I will say that I think the
potential and promises of psychedelics by and large are overstated.
But in terms of bringing emotions back online.
That was
Almost entirely do.
to psychedelic experience for me. Bringing emotions back online. Yeah.
So I hadn't cried and like
twenty years, couldn't remember the last time I cried, and then I'd be like on a plan watching a
really compelling kind of heart wrenching documentary and just start crying on the planet. Fuck and uh certain emotions just came back online.
And I think that once those were online
That is in part what then pulled along with it.
this revisiting of these high fidelity memories.
And then
Uh
had a very rough period because of that.
and ultimately decided, you know what, like this is the lead domino.
That
has already been tipped over that has affected so many things.
I can continue to do patchwork.
Like remediation with band-aid solutions for various things, but I'm just
I'm plugging holes in the side of the boat, not asking why it's filling with water in the first place.
And I just decide, you know what? I'm just gonna take six months and
I know psychiatry is pretty messy.
But
Priority number one is to try to find some resolution with this.
And that's what I did. I I canceled everything.
Because I was having basically like a
Nervous breakdown.
And wasn't sure I would be able to sort of function in a business capacity anyway.
Um
So
Yeah.
Quite the adventure.
Quite the misadventure.
Yeah.
But
Yeah, you p you play your hand the best you can.
Uh so having a podcast, having the books.
Having blog.
has actually been incredibly
therapeutic for me and finding
Some way to extract value.
From those experiences.
Um
Let me just mention this because I don't make anything from it. If people are going through
any experience like this or if they've had
A history of trauma.
Uh you can just go to Tim.blog slash trauma and it's got
The conversation with Debbie.
It's a hard conversation.
But it also has
Yeah, a list of resources.
Because what I used as a
toolkit and what Debbie used are completely different.
So you get two very different perspectives on things.

And uh I would say if I had to pick one other
blog post in this case that I am
was the hardest to put out.
And also that I think I'm proudest of it would be some practical thoughts on suicide. There's a post called Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide.
And um
I know that has I know directly that has saved a few hundred lives.
And
Mm.
It details my personal experience of almost killing myself in college.
Coming very close. I got a date on the calendar.
And the only reason it didn't happen is because
I lucked out. This is luck.
So at the time.
I was taking a year off of
Uh
College.
Two.
work in a few different jobs.
and ended up being very isolated.

because my whole class was graduating.
My roommates at the time had full time jobs, so I was just kind of stuck at home working on my senior thesis. Not a good recipe.
For mental health.
And
I reserved a book from
The Princeton University Library.
about assisted suicide.
And the book was out. Popular book, it would seem.
And back in the day.
The way the system works.
is they would mail you a physical postcard.
to your address that was at the registrar's office. I had not updated my address.
to my off campus apartment.
So the card.
That said.
Good news, your book on suicide has arrived at Farston Library. Got mailed to my parents.
And that's what snapped me out of it.
was realizing, Oh, this isn't just about me.
Right. Now I don't have the plausible deniability. I was going to make it look like an accident.
It's like now I don't have it. That's been taken away.
Retrospect, thank God.
And so it didn't happen. But the reason I wrote that post is because I was at an event.
It's actually being interviewed.
by Jason Kalkanis on stage at this live
this week in Startups event.
Few hundred people in the audience and stuck around afterwards and
A bunch of people came up.
and wanted books signed and things like that.
And there was one really nice guy.
Well dressed, had had himself put together.
Who asked to sign two books.
One for himself, and then he asked me to sign a book for his brother.
And I said, What would you like me to say to your brother? And he just kind of froze.
And I was like
Huh.
Okay, well I don't want this guy to feel stressed out. I was like, I'll tell you what, we can figure it out or you can just leave it to me. There's no rush, like I we can do this.
After the event.
Alright, so
Took care of everybody else.
And then the guy walked me to the elevator.
And he explained, he said, Yeah, sorry about that. I froze because my brother committed suicide.
And
We kept his room exactly how it was.
And he was a huge fan.
Of your writing.
And so I wanted to get a book signed.
buy you and put it in his room.
And
He said, Have you ever thought about talking about mental health?
because you could really help a lot of people. A lot of people listen to you.
And unbeknownst to him.
I had all the history with coming this close.
To killing myself.
And uh
I sat with that and I was like, Yeah, he's right.
He's really right. I have a responsibility.
To write about it.
And that blog post took me
At least a month.
to write and rewrite and rewrite and have proof read.
consider deleting.
And uh because that was also something that my family didn't know about.
I mean they they knew about the book, but they didn't they didn't realize how close it was.
So
Um
That was also another
wonderful call with family to be like, so there's this thing about to come out.
Should probably give you a heads up so you don't hear about it from everybody in the extended family.
Yeah.
But uh
Your parents receive that.
That thing in the post.
Yeah. Yeah.
Did they call you? My mom called me.
With this very shaky voice.
Being like what is what is what is this?
Why did you reserve this book?
And I lied.
You know, I said, Oh well I have a friend at Rutgers and he was trying to get this book for a research project and they didn't have it at their library, so he asked me to get one from through Firestone. But
I was just lying.
But I knew the
The jig was up.
Right.
And uh
That was that was the turnaround point.
And that was also'cause this was in nineteen ninety nine where I just decided to go a hundred percent into physical training.

Um
There's a lot of backstory behind it. People can read about it.
If they want on that post. Some practical thoughts about suicide, but
This is not it is so fucking common.
It's very disturbing.
Like when you realize
It's disturbing and reassuring. It's disturbing because you realize how prevalent it is.
And how close so many people have come.
It's reassuring.
Because
you realize also very quickly that you are not alone.
You're not uniquely flawed.
This doesn't need to be personal and permanent.
people have solved for this.
Looking at my
Audience over the last
Ten years.
every mental health
complication or diagnosis that I can think of is
Up and to the right. Just hockey stick.
So chronic anxiety, treatment resistant depression.
You name it.
Right.
Obesity.
Loneliness, which can take many different forms, usually self imposed.

And
When I see a constellation of issues like that.
I try to identify if I can, not just the symptoms, because then you end up
Putting band aids on
things that are interrelated, but treating them as silos, but looking underneath it.
to see if there are root causes that we can address.
So
Let me speak to that first. So on the mental health side.
I'll just throw out a few things that have been very, very helpful.
There are the behavioral questions.
And I would agree that
at its simplest level.
You can just look at what we're evolved for.
Right, just take a close look at evolutionary biology.
Independence, lone wolf, is not in our programming.
It just is not.
So I would say when in doubt.
River.
on some level to what people were doing a few hundred years ago.
At the most recent, right?
And
That would be sort of
Assumption number one.
Then
I would say
Two people who are suffering right now.
The social interaction.
Analog
human interaction, I would just say is the
is the the one target when hit that solves a
multitude of other problems.
that otherwise you'll be playing whack-a-mole with.
But if there are then remaining problems with say
Chronic anxiety, O C D.
When we get into some slightly trickier terrain, schizophrenia.
borderline personality disorder, et cetera. There are a few things that I have found in the course of doing a lot of work with different scientists.
and also a lot of experimentation on myself.
Having
Grown up with.
multiple long duration depressive episodes every year.
And those are a short list of different types of brain stimulation, specifically something called accelerated TMS.
The before and afters that I've seen with that are
beyond incredible.
and equal or surpass in some cases.
The amplitude of effect and the
durability of effect of psychedelic assisted therapies.
Accelerated TMS, so transcranial magnetic stimulation.
And Nolan Williams, Dr. Nolan Williams at Stanford is a is a good person to look up.
For more on that.
What exactly is that? Is that putting something on your head in
There are different ways to do it depending on the hardware that you're using. But in effect
Accelerated TMS refers to a new protocol with better hardware and software.
Of a technology, TMS, that has existed probably for forty years.
If not more on some level. And
you will instead of doing
two or three sessions a week for many months.
You do.
Ten sessions a day.
For five days straight.
So you are getting stimulated.
On the hour every hour for about eight minutes.
And you do that for ten hours.
Straight.
And then you
compound that over five days.
And you see, for instance, uh
Like to give one example.
uh friends child, very terrifying story. Uh, but uh he was
A cutter.
This this uh fourteen year old.
Yeah.
And
The parents were just waiting for the call.
That
their childhood committed suicide. And this went on for two or three years, I wanna say
And then within three days of accelerated TMS treatment, it was like
Reversion back to old self.
And then with boosters every say.
Three to six months.
That has been durable.
It's i the before and after is
impossible to overstate. It's pretty wild. What are they doing to the brain?
Electrodes or is it music or magnet. It's magnets. Magnets. Yeah.
And the what it feels like is is someone kinda like
Flicking the side of your head is sort of the sensation.
it is from a safety profile perspective really compelling. Like the downside risk is very, very minimal.
And
me with the most recent sessions that I've done myself. I had probably four to five
months of no anxiety.
Like all of that stuff vanished as if by magic wand. And I felt like I'd been meditating twice a day for a year.
I mean it was it was
Incomprehensible. Uh it was it was really, really, really uh remarkable. And there's there's good clinical
Evidence for this. It's not just N of one anecdote.
So
So that's one is the kind of neurostim piece, and there's a lot more that's gonna happen in that space, but bioelectric medicine.
That would be one.
big lever that I think is worth investigating if people are suffering with any number of different conditions.
Then.
You have metabolic psychiatry.
Primarily that would be dietary intervention. Chris Palmer at Harvard is is someone who's popularized this in the last handful of years. Metabolic psychiatry, specifically putting people on a ketogenic diet.
You have folks who have been treated with 15 different medications for schizophrenia for a decade.
who get off all of their medications within
Three to six months.
And stay off.
Simply v by

stabilizing a handful of things.
in the brain, including
Adding a very
beautiful clean energy source, which is ketones.
There are also a lot of possible applications of the ketogenic diet or modified ketogenic diets, exogenous ketones, meaning subplanetal ketones, for neurodegenerative disease. So I have
Three relatives right now who have Alzheimer's.
And genetically I'm very predisposed.
So I'm thinking a lot about this also from a preventative perspective.
So can I
Potentially bolster
Mitochondrial health.
Cellular cleanup.
reduction of plaque build up, et cetera, by doing.
Strich ketosis for a month a year.
Fasting for
A week.
Perhaps once a year, water only. I think there's actually pretty compelling evidence that those are all
worthwhile interventions to consider if you're very highly predisposed as I am.
And then I would say the last one I'll mention now, the psychedelic assisted therapies for various conditions. I do think that psychedelics, and this is to quote a very famous psychotherapist named Stanislav Grof, Stan Grof.
what the telescope did for astronomy, what the microscope did for biology, psychedelics will do for the mind.
Yeah.
I don't think that's an overstatement because a lot of the the clinical outcomes that we're seeing
with treatment resistant PTSD. People who've had an average
diagnosis duration of like 14 to 17 years. Nothing succeeded. They do two to three sessions and then you see like a 50 plus percent complete remission.
of PTSD. What is going on there? I think in a very productive way leading us to question some of the very fundamental assumptions that are made.
in the world of psychiatry, particularly with pharmaceutical or pharmaceutic prescriptions.
And that's really exciting to me because
Th I think there is an argument to be made that you can address certain root causes.
And there are different explanations for this. Gould Dolan, who's now at UC Berkeley, she was at Johns Hopkins.
Talks about the reopening of crits.
for development. So you could potentially use psychedelics for
Stroke patients who are trying to relearn.
Motor control?
So I would say that those are the are broadly kind of the the three pillars. There's one other that um
digging into that I think could end up being very, very interesting overall. This is one that is sort of TBD
Personally.
I am experimenting with it, but vagus nerve stimulation, there's a sea of bullshit around related to vagus nerve stimulation. The vast majority of what you'll bump into is pseudo scientific nonsense. So if I'd never heard about vagus nerve stimulation before, how would you Yeah, I can explain it. Yeah.
Alright, so the Vegas nerve is a bit of a misnomer.
Because they're actually two bundles of nerves.
that traveled down from around your brainstem, down either side of the neck.

Feel your pulse.
right alongside the carotid artery.
And you can think of them as almost transatlantic cables.
So you don't have
You have two primary
Vegas nerves.
But there are about a hundred thousand fibers in each of them.
And we only know what a tiny
fraction of those do.
They then travel down and they innervate.
And touch pretty much.
Everything you can imagine.
Including
your gut and there's some very interesting communication between
The gut microbiome.
And the brain vis the vagus nerve.
It's wild.
And the most credible voice that I've found in
the world of vagus nerve stimulation.
Or VNS for short.
Science is a guy named uh Dr. Brian Tracy, T-R-A-C-E-Y. He wrote a book called The Great Nerve, which is a very good introductory read on all this.
one of the most heavily cited scientists of the last thirty years. He's incredibly incredible.

And
He co founded a company, I want to say at least ten years ago or eleven years ago, was involved at least as a
as a primary scientific advisor.
For an implant.
The implant is about the size of a omega-3 fish oil capsule. Gets implanted right in the neck. So surgical procedure, but pretty minor.
And
That has just been approved. It was a cover of the New York Times. This is a few weeks ago for rheumatoid arthritis.
And the before and after that you see in some of these conditions.
again, is something straight out of science fiction. You see someone who's been mostly bedridden, chronic fatigue, can't hold a job, struggling to interact with their kids.
has this procedure and then like two weeks later they're running up a flight of stair to catch a train on a trip to Europe.
And
have the problem of too much energy.
It seems to have broad
potential application to autoimmune conditions.
So you might think of say a Crohn's disease or IBS.
It seems to have applications.
Two
significantly enhancing HRV.
Heart rate variability. So I have a friend who
for the longest time. He's former Tier One operator military.
He's got a lot of sympathetic overdrive, so he had trouble sleeping.
And he tried
all sorts of sophisticated breathing programs, which can help. He tried cold exposure, which can help.
But those were all incremental gains on his HRB, maybe improved ten to fifteen percent.
Lots of meditation twice a day.
Ten to fifteen percent.
Used Vagus nerve stimulation for
Somewhere between two and four weeks tripled his HRV.
What?
Yeah.
Tripled. How did he stimulate his Vegas N?
This this is where we get into some controversial territory.
Alright, so the device he used
Is

It is a device. It's called GammaCore. It's by prescription. It is applied to the neck.
It provides
Electrical stimulation.
For
Two minutes at a time, I believe. It's very, very
Minimal.
Two minutes twice a day, I want to say. Maybe it's five minutes twice a day.
And
That seems to have
Just a a downstream collection of benefits.
Or
potential benefits. Most of the research for GammaCore is for, I believe, migraines and or cluster headaches.
In terms of published literature.
Or
Option B, which has a lot more in terms of published studies, would be
Uh
auricular, so ear stimulation.
Uh and that's stimulating something call the Simboconsha right here. This very particular location.
And so you apply
Stimulation to the ear.
I'm experimenting with both the ear
and also the neck. I would say vagus nerve stimulation has
Top of mind.
Access right now for me in terms of interest.
I bought this Bon Charge face mask, this light panel for my girlfriend for Christmas. And this was my first introduction into Bon Charge, and since then I've used their products so often. So when they asked if they could sponsor the show, it was my absolute privilege. If you're not familiar with red light therapy, it works by using near infrared light to target your skin and body non-invasively.
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Before the Director was what it is today, it was just an idea. And it started with me, a cheap plug-in microphone, and my
Mac right here. And I have to say, when I first had the idea for the diary of a CEO, my thinking was that the world might want to see into the diaries of some of the most interesting, successful people really in high places that were doing interesting things. So now after recording that first episode under my duvet, I sat on my Mac, which is from our sponsor, Apple, and spent hours editing.
And eventually uploaded it and honestly, I thought that would probably be it. But a couple of my friends said they enjoyed it, so I kept on recording. And over time, the microphone has changed and we now have this incredible setup here. But the thing that has stayed the same is I'm still using the Mac.
Even today.
My entire team across our studio still uses the Mac. Our first few episodes maybe had tens of people listening, but now tens of millions of people tune in all over the world, which is still absolutely crazy to me. So if there is an idea that keeps tapping you on the shoulder, this is your sign to start. Your great ideas start.
on Mac. And you can find out more at Apple.com slash Mac.
Because of what you do and because of the way that you are in terms of your broad curiosity.
And the way that you think and the way that you learn, I have to ask you the question, what is it that you see coming down the pipe, like coming down the line in terms of
Macro trends in it probably makes sense for us to just stick with health for a second. But you've talked about Vegas and is there anything else that you think
Ten years from now, everybody's gonna be doing
But they're not currently doing.
Or thinking about one of them I'll throw out there is uh something I've been thinking about is air quality. I think I see uh a rise in people's concern about CO two levels and
Also outside air quality. So I imagine I'll be wearing some kind of device or my iPhone will be telling me about the air quality in the room or
Outside.
Yeah, that wouldn't surprise me. I think bioelectric medicine is a big category. So whether it's accelerated TMS or
Focused ultrasound.
Uh
Where you might take something that looks like a hockey puck and put it over your
Your liver, for instance, or
Spleen, uh
To affect various things. Uh using
Microchips.
over pills, I think is is is a
is going to be a huge
Growth area?
And that we'll realize more and more how much is dependent on
the immune reflex and different types of communication mediated by electricity.
Uh that can be affected by external or internal devices like an implant.
So for instance, I'll give you a wild factoid, which is people may have heard
the story, which is based on real science, where you transplant the microbiome from say
obese mice into lean mice and those lean mice then become obese.
Just by transplanting my
The gut microbiome.

If you sever the vagus nerve.
before you do the transplant, that doesn't happen. They don't become obese.
So what's happening there? It would seem
Is that the
Microbiome.
is communicating with the brain vis-a-vis.
The vagus nerve.
And when you sever something experimentally in that way, or blade it or whatever.
Oftentimes this might seem
Paradoxical, but you can achieve similar effects with stimulation that you can with
Severing.
And
I think many of the assumptions that we have currently, which form the bedrock of our quote unquote understanding of mental illness and so on, are just gonna be completely false.
They're gonna be completely untenable.
within ten years. A lot of that I think is gonna be
driven by a better understanding of the body electric, it will be
driven by better understanding of
How
Fuel.
utilization in the brain drives many different psychiatric conditions.
That can be
mitigated or completely addressed by, say, providing an alternate fuel source instead of glucose ketones, right? That would be just kind of a simple example. But there's a huge huge compliance issue with the ketogenic diet.
People don't want to do it. For a lot of good reasons.
So how do you get people to stick with it? Well
Maybe there are other options.
For achieving.
ketogenic like effects.
such as systemic anti inflammation.
with the use of electricity instead of diet.
Right.
I think that's possible and I've invested in a few companies that are aiming to do that.
Uh, which is very exciting.
because it means that you might have options for affecting brain function that do not require you to take molecules that get into your brain.
directly. That's really exciting. So the bioelectric medicine, I think, is going to be a very
Exciting space to watch.
And uh there are a lot of researchers doing some wild stuff with bioelectric medicine. So we'll see where it goes.
Where are you today in terms of your
What's guiding you at the moment in this season of your life?
Do you what are your big goals? Are you are you aspiring towards anything in particular?
It's relationships. It's uh looking forward to the next big chapter for me, which w would almost certainly
It not almost certainly be
partner family.
All of that.
I mean another startup's not gonna make any difference to my life. You know. Another podcast. I love all of those things. I love startups. I love
the podcast, I love the books, but
We're at the
squeezing out of marginal gains at this point. Are you married? I'm not married. Don't have any kids that I'm aware of. But uh
Dating a lovely woman right now.
Very excited about it.
Do you think it's quite strange that a lot of podcasters don't seem to be like I'm not married?
Yeah. And I don't have any kids yet.
Yeah. Um I've just turned thirty three. But so many of the big podcasters don't seem to have kids or be married other than really Rogan.
Yeah.
Yeah. Someone tweeted about the other day.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean look, I think that I'm not I'm not pointing fingers at you, but I
But I know quite a few of these guys.
If we're talking about guys, uh I I I mean I know a bunch of female podcasters as well. Um quite a few of which are married. Uh but
On the male side, I will say
You know, if you're a good looking guy and you're putting videos on YouTube
Your
DM inbound and your
plethora of temptation that you need to resist.
is going to make remaining single very attractive.
And that's true for a lot of these guys. So I don't think there's a mystery to be solved. In other words, it's like if they go on the dating apps, it's just like shooting fish in a barrel. And
I I don't think ultimately that the dating apps, despite what they might say, are designed to be deleted. I do not believe that. They're casinos intended to keep you in the casino.
Yeah. It's just follow the money. Follow the subscription plans. Well you talk about the paradox of choice.
Yeah.
So there are times, and I think this is probably misplaced envy, where I'm like, you know, maybe there is something to arranged marriages.
You know? And this whole idea of like soulmate romantic love driving everything is a relatively new invention.
Mm-hmm.
on the scale of human history.
Uh
Now, would I want someone deciding who I
marry and have kids with? Not particularly, but there is a certain simplicity to it.
That I find.
envable when you end up
in the modern digital casinos of dating apps.
Where
Yes, that person was an eight out of ten, but man, that nine or ten is just right around the corner. I know it's just a few thousand swipes away. And and you get the variable reward, at least if you're like a s a healthy
sexually vigorous male.
I'm sure for women as well. I just think that men tend to think with their smaller head a lot more often.
Uh.
You're going to get these incredible dopamine hits of
Variable reward.
It's just like dog training, but you're training yourself with the dating app to continue using the dating app by getting these Scooby snacks in terms of, you know, fill in the blank with your imagination. Uh
I don't meet all I have not met a single person who is like, I love dating apps.
No one. I have not met a single person. And yet
Right? What does the crack addict want?
More crack.
And they might say, I just need one more hit.
That's not how it works.
So
There is, I think, a lot to be said for applying positive constraints.
I'm scared to be single again. I just the way I look how it

the current mechanism of finding someone these dating apps and I just think
And also
I do understand it would be a significant distraction from whatever I'm doing here. Oh Can you imagine me being in New York City tonight single and like
Uh
And having the evening off and w what would go through my head and
And then you have to go on a date with someone, you've got to uh do all the small talk stuff. I got out the game before the game b like began. Yeah. Like seven years ago. I saw this this tweet from this I think it was a Vietnamese woman who said, You know, I wonder if it wasn't Gen X, it was like I wonder if
X, Y, and Z people of this generation are looking at dating apps and thinking, wow, we got the last chopper out of NAM. Literally. Literally. And uh
Oh my god.
Uh
Paradoxal choice is a real problem.
People think it's uh
Quality problem of abundance, I'm not convinced that that's true.
It's not possi I have so many cloth my friends that struggle with dating the most, date the most.
Yeah.
Sure.
I've got fr uh two or three friends that I can think of, I won't name them, but two of them are women and one of them's a guy.
They do.
fifty between fifty and a hundred dates a year.
Yeah. And they're just convinced that it's through lack of lack of option and I just
It's impossible.
Yeah.
You know.
be off of the dating apps. I was on the dating apps for two or three years and it was just
It is a part time slash full time job.
We have a a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for.
And you're you know I
The person who wrote your question sat there, I kid you not.
For thirty minutes.
In total silence.
Thinking about these
Exactly.
Eight words. Oh wow. I've never seen anything like it.
And the the eight words that they wrote. Oh man. What is your favorite color today? Can you imagine?
Yeah.

What's your favorite sandwich? No, I'm drinking.
Um
How would you spend
Your final day on earth.
With my closest friends and family.
No doubt.
It wouldn't be pizza. It wouldn't be
I mean maybe it involves pizza.
But it would be
Telling the people I love that I love them.
And spending time with them. Doesn't need to be anything fancy. It could be sitting on our
Porch on a rocking chair.
And
That might seem like a trite answer, but
I am putting that into practice every year with periods of time that are blocked out for this.
So I'm not waiting until my last day, but
Last day. Certainly wouldn't be dating apps.
Mm-hmm.
Wouldn't be an opium bender.
Uh
It would be it would be time with
I my absolute closest friends and family and I'll add uh uh
elaboration on the past year review.
when I'm looking at relationships.
Before investing in new relationships.
I look at my top, say, five to ten relationships and ask myself, did I spend the amount of time I would want to spend with these people last year?
And if the answer is no,
I always
reinvest in those people.
and only the overflow.
gets allocated to new relationships.
Yeah, really focus on.
The tried and true.
proven relationships with deep levels of trust over long periods of time. In terms of systems, you've put have you put a system in place to make sure that life doesn't get in the way of
Those people coming together.
Yeah.
twenty five plus years. I've had a

Annual reunion.
Around my birthday every year in the summer.
Where all of my
Or those who can make it, but
incredibly old friends show up.
They know it's on the calendar. It's roughly the same date every year.
And they fly in from all over the country, all over the world. And it has nothing to do with my birthday. It's just a reunion of friends.
Tim, thank you. Thank you for uh several reasons. I think the first reason is
You're one of the
I said to you before, one of the founding fathers of what we do here. And if it wasn't for people like yourself and Joe
There is a zero percent chance, I think.
That
People like me would be doing what we do now.
And that's given us so much. There's really really like a very extremely low chance that if
People like you hadn't taken the risk.
and create a blueprint and shown that it was like an effective medium and the long form was interesting and everything that you you guys proved, there's no chance that people like with me would exist.
And so I whenever I meet
People like you that I I consider to have
to be standing on the shoulders of a on or stolen a blueprint on I feel like I am obliged to say thank you. But it's true, it's true. And I was inspired also by
People who preceded me, right, when I did the launch for the Four Chef in twenty twelve with
going on. Joe Rogan and Mark Marin and
nerdist and so on. Like those guys also showed me that something interesting was afoot. So uh
You're thirty three, you said? Thirty three. Yeah, you got a lot of runway, man.
You're in a good position.
We'll see we'll see what happens.
I'll add one last thing.
That I
Neglected to mention earlier. But in terms of
productivity and we're talking about weekly architecture. I think everyone should
put as a challenge for themselves.
Particularly if they're an entrepreneur.
a four week mini retirement once a year, where you are unavailable.
You are off the grid.
No laptop.
No phone outside of maybe
Uber and
Google Maps and Open Table.
where you are literally completely unavailable.
And the reason I recommend that, there are a few. Number one, it's gonna
allow you to play the long game at high intensity.
having that deloading phase. The second is it will force you to
Improve all of your policies, rules.
Guidelines for autonomous decision making by employees.
et cetera, et cetera. It'll force you to clarify all of that on a regular basis. So when you come back, all of those systems improvements.
will endure beyond the mini retirement.
But it's a forcing function.
Mm-hmm. It also forces you
Take a very close look.
At the
non-business interests that you have either
Maintained or cultivated or let atrophy.
In complete disuse.
And if you end up having a slight panic attack because you don't know what to do with your time...
That's a great wake up call.
Yeah.
You need some other things to offset.
D
type A maniacal focus on chasing that.
Rabbit around the Greyhound track.
Amen.
Yeah.

Thank you, Tim. Thanks, Matt.
Uh
If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards, because on this show, when I sit here with my guests and have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel
Deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest, and we've turned them into these.
conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new addition and for the first time ever I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me. But I'm only putting the gold cards in
The first run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition goal cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.