Advice Line with Jamie Siminoff of Ring (August 2024)

0:01 Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So our team is taking a short break for the end of the summer, and we're bringing you an awesome episode from the archives. This is an advice line with Jamie Simenov, the founder of Ring. And he is gonna give amazing advice. to three up and coming entrepreneurs. And if you stick around to the end of the episode, you'll hear some updates from all of these founders. It's super cool. Enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.

0:40 I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me To help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com.

1:28 And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright. Let's get to it. Joining me this week is Jamie Simenov. He's the creator of the Ring Video Doorbell. Jamie Welcome back to the show.

1:41 Thanks me back on. It's great to have you. Um Jamie. Uh I remember when um when you were on the show back in twenty twenty, uh to of course to tell the story of how you created Ring Um you were you know, you are were and are a tinkerer. Like you you made your first prototype, it would become the ring doorbell.

2:00 Like in your garage, right? That's exact yeah. I was in my garage and couldn't hear the doorbell and Just got an iPhone and you know, like anyone just Build your own Wi Fi doorbell. Yeah, and of course you

2:11 pursued that idea, which b which was a bet that b would eventually pay off in spades when when Ring was acquired by Amazon. But there was a lot of a lot of false starts. There was a Uh you were on Shark Tank and that didn't work out. Um and you ship thousands of doorbells that didn't work initially. Um, since you've been on the show. Give us an update of what's going on in your life right now. So I ended up leaving Amazon and Ring about a year ago.

2:34 Um I started a company called Honest Days Work, which the idea was that there's better ways to build platforms for independent contractors, especially the ones that really care about the job, which we call the Honest Day's worker. I then merge that into a public company that had had a lot of trouble that was doing doorlocks and systems for apartments. So

2:55 You think about it, apartment buildings are amazing places for independent contractors because there's a lot of scale um right there. So kinda merged that in and then we bought another company called Hello Tech, and we've kind of put this whole thing together and we're trying to build a Um new way of doing property management and we're rebranding the company to Door. And door.com. You know, I do love a four letter domain name. Mm-hmm. And so I've been in the process for like the last year of kinda turning something around and it's really

3:21 Yeah, a lot of ways with these callers. You know, thinking about it like I'm I'm kinda back with them in a lot of ways, you know. You're back in square one, yeah. Yeah. That's so cool. Um, all right, well let's let's let's bring in our first caller, Jamie, and see um see if we can help him out. Yeah. Hello caller.

3:36 Hi guy. Hi Jamie. Thank you for having me on. Hello, hello. Please um tell us your name, um, tell me where tell us where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. My name is Victor Ugornandez, or as my friends and family like to call me, Vico. I am calling in from Orange County, California.

3:52 And tell me a little bit about your business. I am the inventor of the Ergoflex Desk. Uh a smart desk that's about to launch into the market later this year. Got it. Okay, we're gonna ask you about this in a moment. And what what's your question that you brought up for us today, Victor? Well my question is, uh since we're looking to launch uh in a couple months here, um, we are looking to launch a Kickstarter campaign, a crowdfunding campaign, and uh we'd like to get some insight on uh

4:17 how you know to best prepare uh and complete A successful campaign. Cool. All right. Well you're at the right you're in the right place, Victor. Let's start with um a little bit about what your creating. So these are ergonomic desks, I'm assuming Uh these this is like what what you mean by that is these are like standing desks or sitting desks, or they're designed to make sure your posture is right and you're not gonna get carpal tunnel syndrome and all that stuff.

4:41 Yes, exactly. It's actually um a sit and stand desk that I recently got a patent for late last year for its tilt capabilities. So in addition to sit and stand, it tilts up to seventy degrees. Oh nice. Um originally for my My purpose was for it to turn into an artist easel, and now everything's motorized, controlled through an app, and soon you'll be able to control it through a voice command for people with uh disabilities. Oh, so you can control it through an app, so it's all electronic. And how did you are are you a d an artist? Like tell me how you came up with this whole thing. Um, my background was visual arts. I uh studied in Cal Poly Humboldt, and mainly my focus was sculpture, graphic design, um, and I started my career up there doing that kind of work, and uh I wanted to, you know, get a desk. And uh the the sit and stand desks had just come onto the market, so I went to purchase one, but I couldn't find anything that was really suiting to what I was needing. So I decided to create my own desk. And um you know, that has been a seven year journey now. Wow. Uh from a very, you know, hands on uh mobile desk unit to a now pretty much a robot.

5:46 Desk that uh can sit, stand Tilt and then w I also added omnidirectional uh ground movement powered wheels at the bottom so that the desk can be driven kinda like an RC car. Um it's all connected through Wi Fi. But it doesn't do the work for you. It doesn't do the work for you. You gotta do the you still have to do the work, Jamie. I just wanna make sure I don't know where the autonomy stops. I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, uh you still gotta yeah, but wow, it's like it's like the coolest remote control car. Um can I can I ask you a question, Victor, about who do you imagine using this desk? Artists, drafts people, Or just anybody in an office.

6:22 Yeah, so I mean because it tilts up to seventy degrees. Um, it can really be used for pretty much m al most applications. So like a drafter for uh architecture is about thirty five to forty degrees. Um and then just for your uh ergonomics as far as your shoulders and your your neck and and strains, right? And also for people with disabilities. Um Uh I have somebody in our family who ha has a disability and that's something that is important to me to be able to serve that underserved community. Um, and so I soon realized that this actually would uh benefit a lot of people and increase their creativity as well. So two year

6:58 Pre sale Kickstarter. What's worrying me right now is that you have a lot of Customers but fringe on each one. Like I'm a stand up I mean I'm standing now. I don't actually even own a chair. in any office that I have. So you don't own a chair in any of your offices. I don't. Good for you. And and I and I could buy one. I mean I just want to like just so you know. I mean I I could. If you need me to send one, Jamie, let me know. I appreciate it but I but I

7:23 I'm a so I'm a standing person, but The tilt for me wouldn't help me. Like I like the way I work, what I'm doing, like that wouldn't be like I'm not doing artist things and so I think on each one of these categories you're like in sort of a piece and so The thing about Kickstarter is you need to get

7:39 Like obviously groups into it. So how do you find What are the are there like top three somewhat niche small communities that you could enter into to get to sort of buy this. That's how I'd be looking at it. Because niches can be still big. It doesn't mean they're small. Yeah. But how do I find them? Like how do I find this person that wants this? Like an architect or even like a nurse in like a hospital, right? Like you're talking about specific types of people, Jamie, right? Yeah.

8:04 Yeah, my goal to that effect was uh I'm gonna try to partner up with uh about five different influencers in different spaces, right? That uh that have a good following, one in the ergonomics field, one in the gaming, one in the cultural celebrity field. um one of the visual artists. Um, and we will design a custom unit for them and then one will go off to the raffle for the crowdfunding campaign so that any follower of theirs can, you know, have a minimum donation of one dollar, five dollars, and then be submitted to the raffle. Got it. Okay. And and tell me how you and do you have a prototype? A working prototype? Yes, actually. It's consumer ready, so it actually um Uh my engineer I flew him out from the Philippines. Uh we pretty much put the final touches on all the sensors, so all the safety. It has collision detection, so if it was to collide with anything on any motors, uh everything stops. I'm about to meet with him really soon and we're about about to get the code to do the voice control so that you'll be able to tell it to go to a certain height, tell to a certain angle.

9:02 Maybe rotate certain degrees. And then later down the line the AI camera also will be available for you to be able to say, Hey, Des, come over here. And so, you know, I think that really for people with disabilities, that's gonna be a really huge benefit if somebody's bedridden or you know, in a wheelchair. Yeah. Like, hey Desk, bring me my My lunch. Or or I could be like But if I was said, hey Desk, can you go run Jamie over? It wouldn't do it. It'll collide. Well actually it'll stop. It'll be like oh there it is. I'm gonna override that. Hey Desk.

9:34 Go Fug Jamie. Just go bump them. I mean And again, this is where like it's it's um

9:39 There's a lot there and it's a like As you talk it's like a little all over the place, though. I think it like For example, if you maybe just focused on people that are so s in some ways uh don't have the capability to move around, like they might be able to access insurance to buy the desk. Mm. Yeah. And so I think there's like Interesting things.

10:00 The one thing I worry about when I hear something does everything is that it's it's hard to sell it. And it's like even in my own In my new business I have that problem of like trying to boil things down to focus it. And it it's very hard to do that because Lot of things can do a lot of things, but it's really like the magic a lot of times comes from focusing it. Well, right now Victor's got one issue on on on his plate, right, which is which is Kickstarter. You want to launch this on Kickstarter. Jamie, you didn't launch Ring on Kickstarter, but you did it you did a crowdfunding campaign. Yep.

10:28 Um and so Victor's trying to figure out like what what Should he do? Right. And so like the obvious things are make a video and I know you've got a video on your website that I'm looking at right now, but you gotta make a better video. Um, and how do you Like how does he get attention for this thing? How does he get people like Psych to be like, I want that thing.

10:47 I mean it's like feels so tick tocky. of like the driving to someone who has a disability or like you know sort of from the emotional side of TikTok to the fun side point of doing things. Like it feels like there's just so many little bites that you could have at that that could go viral. Yeah, I mean I can imagine a video where you've got like you've got like A couple people just like carrying this really heavy desk from one part of a room to another, and then you come out and like wha Why do you have a heavy desk in one spot? Like the future is a a desk that moves for you.

11:19 And that Then you can stand and sit, something like that, you know. Um I keep I've I've referred to this several times on the advice line which is liquid death. And Jamie, I know you probably know this story, but

11:32 You know, Mike Cesario didn't have a big budget when he launched that brand. He it's he spent fifteen hundred dollars making a viral video. that went truly went viral. I mean i you may have seen it it's like the the last scene is somebody just kind of it's cr kinda w crazy, but he did this, somebody being waterboarded with liquid death, right? Like he was really kind of playing into the absurd. But you can imagine like with a small budget And a couple of iPhones.

11:59 Making a really funny video. that also shows the f the functionality. Like to me that's that's where you gotta start. I I tot totally agree. Dol Dollar Shave Club, Liquid Death, some of those like they've just like amazing as I sit here and drink liquid death right now. Um, and so I I do think it's uh like it doesn't have to be outlandish. Like outlandish could be in your own way. It doesn't have to just be Crazy.

12:22 Um, it can also be very emotional. And it's I think like, you know, depend you sound like someone also has like like grounded in some things that like are are more emotional about what you built. And I think if you can try to get that out, that can also be as viral as You know, waterborning someone with a can of water, which is pretty hysterical, I think. Yeah, I wonder, Jamie, is there a not a risk, but like given that that Victor's trying to create a mass appeal product Like if initially he's focusing on

12:50 you know folks with disabilities, which obviously this is designed to also appeal to would it send a signal that this is specifically for folks who have limited mobility or Rather than anyone like just anyone who wants a standing sitting desk. I think I think for sure what you might want to do is break the brands up. Like you might want to have a gaming one that's a little bit set up differently under a different brand. Um it could be like something like, you know, gamer extreme desk buy

13:16 Vico. And then it's like You know, healthcare desks by V it could be like, you know, kind of buy or you could do something to sort of do that, but it doesn't sort of translate over to the something else. Yeah, no, that is great advice. Um, that's kinda where I've been w working on straddling. I mean, I have my business plan and I know that uh we can benefit a lot of different sectors, but yes, it's all about how to tailor the message for each sector and not muddy up the waters. I'm hoping that there's one that's Big enough.

13:42 to be a business because if if you have to do multiple to be a business, I really worry that you're gonna have trouble being a business. Like so hopefully like one of those. Like maybe dis I don't I don't know how big disability is in general, but it it might actually be that that just that alone is so big that that's a business. And then you can do gaming off of that and all these other things, especially as you get your costs down and your manufacturing better and all the other sort of pieces solved. Yeah, I also see it as like you will discover this over time. I mean, you you once you put this out of the world, you'll start to see where you're getting traction and who's interested in the product. And that's o that often helps

14:21 people figure out where their market is. You know, like they're they they they might have been targeting a completely different market. Only to discover that like This group of people uses it this way. And that you know, your your consumers

14:36 They kind of show you the way. And that's what's just so awesome about Pre sale in general and Kickstarter, is it your truly you're not surveying, you're getting like money votes and and when people vote with their dollars It's a big it's very different than when they're voting with like a survey.

14:50 All right. W and when do you hope to launch it? Um, hopefully in a couple of months. Yeah, so hopefully it'll be live by around September so that the, you know, holiday season can be a great start for everybody. Cool. Um

15:05 The company's called Ergo Flex Desk, Victor Hernandez. Thanks. Good luck, man. Good luck, Victor. Thank you so much, you guys. I really appreciate you guys and you guys are an inspiration, you know, uh how I built this and Jamie, thank you so much for for everything, my friend. Awesome. Thanks, Vico. Take care. Thank you. Uh did you Jamie, you must have had had remote control cars.

15:25 Like the frog and uh frog everything. MRC MRC Tamiya was it? Like yeah. Yeah. Those are so sweet. Remember how fast it sh that's that's really what taught me engineering. Yeah, I bet. I w I remember you talking about that. Electric uh like electric everything. Yeah. We talked about the frog, I remember. But uh I can hear that like on my on my street where I grew up in in the San Fernando Valley that Yeah. Oh my God, it was so sweet. They went so fast. And then they would crash and break and and you'd have to like fix it. That was the best part, is like when they broke you had to like fix it and you know You learned. I kinda w now I'm I mean, I don't think the Ergo desk is gonna do that, like to go that f

16:08 I don't know, but he but I mean right Vico may me I mean as Vico was talking, I mean it's gonna it's gonna like go get food for you and bring it back. I mean it's it's it's like a Door Dasher. It's like your own Door Dash robot. Yeah. Alright, Jamie, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back Luxury Nigerian chocolate that will spice up Any dinner party guaranteed. That's after the break. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and my guest today is Ring Founders Jamie Simenov.

16:59 So Jamie, let's bring in our next collar. Hi Jamie. Hi Guy. I'm so excited to talk to you about How's it going? Welcome, please tell us your tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Yeah, absolutely. So my name is I Akin Labi. Everyone calls me Ian. I'm calling from Baltimore, Maryland, and I'm the founder of Lu G's Chocolate.

17:23 So we sell delicious chocolate bars made with unique West African ingredients. And for every bar we sell, we actually give back a cocoa tree seedling actually A farmer where we source our cocoa from. Amazing. Okay. And what's what's your question for us today? I'd love our bars to be more accessible. But as a bootstrap company, we're priced a little bit higher than I would like right now.

17:44 So, how should we think about our pricing strategy to remain affordable to our customers without compromising our commitment to quality? um and ethical sourcing and also ensure like the financial health of our business in the short and long term. All right. We'll get you a question in a moment. I've got a bunch of questions. Jamie does, I'm sure, as well. Let's start with your product. So you these are this is chocolate. made and sourced in specifically in

18:10 In West Africa, but in a specific country or it's specifically in Nigeria, exactly. So we sell chocolate bars that are made in Nigeria. Nigeria, okay. And most of the world's chocolate comes from Ivory Coast and Nigeria and like and and these countries right in in West Africa. And uh and I guess w you what you discover that not a whole lot of it is actually made there. It's just that the raw materials are shipped and then it's made in Europe or in the US or in South America or in Asia.

18:39 Exactly. Yeah. So like in twenty nineteen when I lived in Ghana, I basically found out that over seventy percent of cocoa Is grown in West Africa, but less than one percent of chocolate is actually manufactured there. And basically once I learned that stat, I knew I wanted to be part of changing it. And that's why I started Lucchi's chocolate. I I'd actually love to Yeah, like w why so it's it's

19:00 Like it's produced there, but it's not made there in terms of like the actual finished product. Why does that matter? So basically most of the chocolate you find on your grocery shelves today are not made there. Typically they buy the cocoa. From like Ghana, Ivory Coast, Nigeria. then they ship it to the US or Europe, and that's where they actually produce the chocolate. So what that means is as you can imagine, most of the value addition, the money, the resources don't actually stay within that community. Um, and then also a lot of them follow like a very typical informulate manufacturing process. Unfortunately, they're like a ton of middlemen between the farmers and the end users.

19:38 Um a lot of them also have really negative and unethical sourcing practices. And then something that's really important to most customers is like most of the chocolate we see on the shelves, they're like really boring. They use the same ingredients, but I think some people are also a lot of chocolate lovers are really into unique inclusions that maybe could be local to the region where we're actually sourcing from. But the big thing is that by making it there, that instead of them being commodity farmers that are just getting bought by pound by some middleman distributor, now they actually can be part of the value that's created in chocolate. And and that's meaningful to them and their communities. That's meaningful to them and their communities as well as the person buying the chocolate because your essentially your purchase is making an impact where you bought it.

20:24 And then the actual What we like our bestseller, we have a ginger with plantain chips flavor, chocolate bar, and we also have a spicy soya. Soya is a uh a West African blend. So the what you're actually buying is like a different type of chocolate as well. Um so what's your what what's your like background? What what do you do and what have you been doing for for most of your career?

20:44 And and is this your full time gig right now? So as far as educational background, I studied chemical engineering, um, but I've never worked as a chemical engineer. I hated it. Um, and I've always worked in technology. So right now I work in like a low-code SaaS company, like as a product expert. And right now it's I mean, it's not my full time gig, but however, it's my second job. I don't think of it as a side hustle because I feel like I work two jobs right now. Okay. So I'm looking at the website and I love your colors. I love the design scheme. I think that's super cool. Thank you. One interesting thing is I and I just learned about this recently.

21:21 One of the top selling chocolate brands in Europe. Із Tony's Chocoloni. chocolate. Okay. And this is a relatively new brand and it's a brand that was started by basically the story is it was started by an ex journalist

21:37 who discovered uh like the explo how how chocolate farmers are exploited and he wanted to create a more ethical chocolate brand. But from what I've learned That w isn't why the brand has been so successful. I the the story, you can see the story on the back of the bar. But I would go out on a limb and say most people aren't reading it. The r and that the reason

22:00 Why the brand is successful is because it tastes really good. And it looks like a cartoony chocolate, like uh it's got this cartoony logo on the front and it's sold in the US. as well and and around the world. And I think

22:14 That While there's no question There is a segment of the consumer market. that is gonna be interested in in supporting what you do. I think your biggest value proposition is ginger plantain crunch is like these really interesting, unique

22:31 Flavors. I don't know, Jamie, what do you what do you think about that? It's a balance. You know, my a good friends of mine started Bowling Branch, uh Missy and Scott Tannen and they sort of had a similar thing to you, which is like they found out about cotton and the cotton, the way it's grown and like they sort of like how it affects communities in the places it's grown in India and so

22:51 They did a good job early on of doing that, but Guy, to your point I think people buy bowling branch sheets because they're Great sheets. I didn't even know that story. I and I that's right. I just knew that they make good sheets. So but that was what was behind it. And I do like I think there's something about authenticity behind a brand that matters. And so I love that it's not like you're just not trying to build like X Y Z chocolate. Um, but I do th yeah, I think with guy I I think you're right. I think the consumer, sadly, like

23:19 And maybe it's not sadly. Like they but you're right, like they're gonna like a interesting flavor of something and that's probably gonna trump Any sort of You know, story and which helps, but maybe I think you're right. No, I a hundred percent understand what you're saying, and I actually could I think As far as like my messaging initially it was like because of the reason I started it, it leaned a lot heavier.

23:42 On the impact aspect. But I've learned and it's starting to pivot more into Like our like our flavor profile. But I think what's challenging with that sometimes, and it feels like I'm competing on the same thing that any chocolate would be talking about. So It's sometimes it's challenging for me to see how to balance that.

24:01 Yeah. And I'm just I'm trying to like it is a it is that's the balance. Um And I'd try to look at some others like Bowen Branch that have done this and just see how they've balanced it. It sounds like Tony Chocoloni. It sounds like they've done a a good job at that. You know Liquid Death, which we I'm the ones that you continue to talk about. That was death to plastic.

24:21 Like th he cared about Killing plastic and plastic water bottles. But I would say One percent of people know that. I didn't know that. So but but yeah, and built a huge brand. So but I think that again, authenticity actually breeds something. There's something about having true authenticity that when you go into these brands, like

24:38 At Ring we cared about making neighborhoods safer. I'm not sure if everyone who bought a ring knew that, but we really cared about that. Like that was something that was like super ingrained. In what we did. And so I think there's something still about like having Like hold on to that. Don't just because If it's just the ginger, whatever sell like if it's the flavors you figure out that are selling, like I think still holding on to that is important.

24:58 Your your question though was around the pricing and accessibility. Um And that then concerned me because it's like you're trying to Like on one hand you're saying like I'm doing all these premium things to help these communities and on the other hand you're like, I wanna be the cheapest chocolate in the world. And it's like it's like these things are just like feel like they're just so distant.

25:16 Yeah, and I think you're bringing up The the fighting thought process that I go through accentually. I definitely don't want to be the cheapest. Primarily we've been selling online. And then more recently we just got into like our first small retail store and we just started actually trying to get into more stores. And I think as I've started that process, I'm starting to think through our pricing strategy. Wh where are you

25:42 Like if if uh Hershey's is I don't even know, like Whatever where where you Yeah, so look, let's say Hershey's is like two dollars. The Tony's Chocolone that guy mentioned is maybe five dollars and we're at ten dollar fifty. Um per bar. There's like a craft chocolate space where there are there are that are Yeah, exactly. So they're

26:01 There's a lot that are in that space, but I think my goal in starting this was to make this more accessible to people. So I'm struggling to figure out Not to think about that. I I think t we uh w I'll get to the price issue question in just a sec, but I think that Because it's a premium product.

26:20 I feel like you need to and you can elevate that a bit more, right? Because I I I see you've got a video on your website. But I think there are a couple of things that I wanna see. I wanna see the factory. I wanna see the where it's made. I wanna see somebody pouring the liquid chocolate into the mold um and because premium chocolate people are willing to pay for it. It's like wine, right? And I think you can Just show us that a little bit more. Pe people really

26:49 Once they can see what you're paying for. It's handcrafted. It's made from the best quality. Like we pick You know, we roast, we have the best farmers. It's this is different kind of chocolate that you're consuming.

27:04 Yeah, that makes sense. That video was when we shot I we've talked about Kickstarter a little bit, but it was part of our Kickstarter campaign when we launched. So I think it's due for an upgrade for sure. Now, again if you're too far outside of the premium side, like even Yeah. There are price points you can fall out of, but It sounds like Tony's Chocolone.

27:23 might have figured out that balance between Hershey's and sort of like They might be in that high volume but higher margin, like they figured out kind of that perfect sort of It took them it took them some time. But yeah, they did, right? They're in that they're in that sort of mid level. Like

27:40 I I just made chocolate chip cookies for friends recently and I bought um Uh really great chocolate and cut it up, you know, and like this is what you're selling. you're selling like the kind of chocolate you'd you'd serve at a dinner party after dinner with a glass of wine, maybe, or you know, like have right, like this is something that you would really savor And I think that's

28:01 There's something to this idea that you could you could put on your label, like um You know The Finest cocoa beans. The best roasters.

28:12 The m most premium Ingredients. Luji sh something like that where so bam bam bam bam that just pops off the shelves if it's at Whole Foods. Yeah.

28:23 I think what I'm hearing from what you're both saying is like we are a premium product and it is definitely differentiated in the categories. So what I was thinking about was like I know long in the long run, we probably want to get closer to like Tony Chocoloni type of pricing. So should I lower that price now? Or is it What seemed more sustainable is like You start high and then as you

28:46 Increase the volume. then I'll be able to like lower it. I'll be a super hypocrite, you know,'cause it's like that's what I did with the ring. I mean, when we came out with it, we were making them for more than we were selling them for. Um I just you know, it's some in some ways we priced it to what we knew the market would s like the max the market would sustain, but still buy it.

29:04 Knowing also that we had to get to volume. Like that that the the price we were paying for each one When we started was way more then if we got to volume and you're not gonna get to volume if you just overcharge or charge, you know, kind of cost plus Right. And so we had to kinda take that leap of faith that we would be able to raise enough money, sell enough to get the cost lower to then get the mar you know, the margin in line to get the volume, and that's

29:30 We played that game, you know, it's a kind of a you know, bit of a game of chicken. Yeah. Um and it and it worked, but I also could see like where that price was going. So I also say to you, how far out can you see I see. Like if you really if you ten X sales, does pricing really come down that much? Yeah. Um with with chips and all this stuff, I could actually literally like

29:50 They gave me the thing. Like if you buy ten thousand it's this, if you buy a hundred thousand, it's this. I could like on an Excel sheet show exactly what it was gonna be. So at least I Wasn't doing it like just completely willy nilly. If So if you can see that, maybe then you do wanna do that, but I'd I'd make sure that it's actually gonna come down and that you're not actually gonna you know sort of

30:09 your mission you're not gonna then compress the worker. to get the price down because you try you know it's like almost like you know, in the end it would be like this weird Ironic ending. Yeah. Yeah.

30:19 I I would take a page out of L VMH. I was just um I was I just had the opportunity to go to Paris to see bit of the Olympics and it was amazing. And one of the things you're reminded of when you're in Paris is L VMH controls, owns Paris and and really Europe in many ways. And what's amazing about L VMH is their margins are I think are so high because it's brand, it's aspiration they're selling, right? But it's also quality. I mean a uh a Gucci or Airmaz uh these are all high end um products. You know they're well made, but you're also paying for the the the the brand. You will get to the brand side, but I think you wanna

30:58 You wanna really present this as a sp really premium product. Start there. It's it's this thing that is made all in the same place. It's a really high end. luxury product.

31:10 And Uh and I think it's worth Trying that. Yeah. Yeah. The brand is called Lugi's Chocolate. Ian, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck.

31:20 Thank you both so much. I feel so inspired. Everyone. Alright. Good luck. Cool. I uh yeah, I could I could chop some of that up and put'em in my cookies.

31:30 I was I I was actually thinking like do I get paid for the advice line? Can I get some chocolate maybe, you know? You know what? Next time you come up here, I'm gonna get some of Lu G's chocolate and I'll make you cookies. I just made ice cream sandwiches. I made ice cream and cookies. Put'em together, wrapped'em for a little party I'm throwing. Yeah. I love ice cream sandwiches. I know, man. They're good. Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but when we come back Inspirational posters created for teachers

32:00 By a teacher. I'm Guy Ross and hopefully we've got the answers here on the advice line. Stick around if you're listening to how I built this lab. Hey, welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz, and today I'm taking calls with Jamie Simonov. He's the founder of Ring, which is perhaps most famous for its video doorbell. Jamie, what do you say? Let's bring in our last caller. Hello guy, hello Jamie. Hi.

32:40 Hello, hello, tell us please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. I'm Francesca Thompson from Atlanta, Georgia, the founder of Thrive Twelve. It is an educational resource company designed to support teachers with cool tools and products to use in their classroom. And we're laser focused on diversity because we understand that every student matters. Awesome. And what's your what's your question for us today? So I am at the point where I'm transitioning from my teacher pay teacher um site to actual storefront on Amazon and I want to know at this stage should I be focused on the the different certifications that you can get Um like women's own small business certifications, minority women's business certification,'cause with Amazon, they actually do have some support for minority businesses, but I'm not sure if I need to do that right now.

33:38 Alright, we'll get your question in a moment. Let me ask you first a bit about the business. So so If I understand it correctly, you make Posters like That are like inspirational posters, sort of, right?

33:51 Correct. Um, they're very inclusive. They uh look like students that I teach, my black and brown students. I have You're a teacher. Yes, I am. You're a teacher in Atlanta. Yeah, I'm well I'm in Gwinnette County Schools, it's the largest school district in Georgia. Yeah. What do you teach? So um I was teaching entrepreneurship. Oh awesome. Nice. But now I'm more of a career coach and I help the teachers with um developing their classes. Got it. Okay. And these posters right now are digital only. Like you buy it and then you down you down, like I'm clicking on one, it says like I chat, I tweet, I post, I study, it's two bucks. Um you've got another one, it's um it's a it's a woman uh uh uh on the poster says lead serve excel. Yeah And um and it's two bucks and

34:41 So you download it and then you are responsible for printing it and putting it out. Yes. Okay. And so I wanna have physical posters now that I can sh um ship directly to um teachers in school districts. Cool. All right, we'll get your question moment. Jamie Uh I'm sure you've got some questions for Francesca. I guess w is there like is there a mar I mean I'm not a teacher, um, so like what would be the market for this? Are teachers always looking for these things or how are they looking? I just I just So we have our classrooms and every year during the summertime when we come back, like right now, we're always looking for products to decorate our classrooms. Yeah and so um

35:18 uh a lot of school districts give you a little small budget to use to buy products for your classes. And then a lot of teachers actually have to fund that stuff their self. But we're always looking for things to um change our classroom space. Um definitely things for the holidays as well. We're always teachers just love To decorate. And the idea here is really to like to inspire kids with these posters and I mean they're different kinds of people, right? It's different as kids. Like some kids will see these posters and it just won't resonate.

35:49 But but you have you had the experience where kids will see a poster like this and something will just click in their head, like, Yeah, I'm gonna like I'm looking at a poster says trust your ability and it's a d it's a disabled man kicking a soccer ball. Like have you seen Kids just like I don't know, just respond to these things in ways that surprise you? Yes, um one of the posters if you uh see is of a African American student with a drone. And that's probably been one of my most popular ones because one uh the kids look at the poster and they see him and then they're like, What is that? you know, um it just is something that inspires them to look into that product and um see if they can learn how to use and fly drones as well. So that one always gets the attention of uh our students.

36:37 And you design all these posters yourself? Yes, I do. All right, the price point is really low, right? I mean they're like two, three dollars. Yeah so you're gonna have to do a lot of volume to build a sustainable business, but I imagine you have a different plan in the future. I'd be curious to hear what your vision is,'cause you you're an entrepreneurship teacher, so you've got I know you've got a five year plan. Yeah. W tell me, tell tell us about it. So it's that low because I'm saying at the price point of of most products that are on teacher pay teacher sites because they're downloading it and they're responsible for it. But once I move to my storefront, um Amazon storefront, it is going to definitely I can see those posters ranging anywhere from 15 to 19, and then hopefully eventually I'll roll out our games as well.

37:27 And and do you see this? long term only for schools, or do you see this as a you know, for like nonprofits or for um businesses? And you know, like remember successories? Like back in the day, th that was like the OG. You'd go into like a warehouse and it would be like teamwork and there'd be like a giant soaring eagle and it would say, you know, like strength or something, right? And and that was a thing and some offices still have that. I mean are you Do you see This kind of product is something like that?

37:56 Well, I mean, you know, I was only thinking schools, but now that you've said that, I think that is a definitely a great idea. Cause I'm I'm thinking all the school districts in the United States and just all the teachers that would definitely benefit. But like you said, different companies could definitely benefit from the product as well. I mean even just like people buying it for their kids' rooms. You're right. That's good. Really good idea. That's why like as I'm thinking about it, it is an interesting

38:23 I I kinda love it. The drone like one, like just like I love how that resonates. Yeah. Um because I do think there's things that kids don't realize they can do. And if you can just sp it's like sparks, like sparks, you just gotta spark them in the right direction now because with the internet and everything else, like you can find your way. It's just but you need that that that ignition point. Yeah.

38:44 And when I think about like some of my students, like some of my students with disabilities, just to see something like that on the wall that represents them and they never have seen anything like that, that just makes them, you know, feel really good about themselves. And if I'm not mistaken, I think Barbie just launched um uh Barbie with Down. Syndrome syndrome, I saw that. Yeah. So cool, yeah. Yeah. So it's things like that that we kind of take for granted. We don't know realize that these things are really needed, um, and that it really will help a student out. Mm. As you start to do this more and increase the price, I also wonder if you can find people that have made it, whether it's an engineer at Amazon or someone and make them the poster. Oh yeah. You know, it gives it a little bit more I I don't want to say authenticity, but there's something about it that like the the like a

39:31 Little paragraph on the bottom. A real person. Yeah. Like this is doctor blah blah blah who's an engineer. I love it. Um to your question, Francesca, about you so your question is like should I gain access to certifications like the women owned small business certification or uh minority s business certification. First of all, how um how much work is it to get a certification? Is it something that takes months? Is it s a lot of paperwork? So um there is some paperwork involved and the biggest thing is that some of these uh certifications, they're fees and right right now with me being at this early stage and trying to you see you saw my products are two and three and four and five dollars right now. So I'm trying to sí

40:16 if it's something I should fit in right now, or can that be something I can look at later and then add on. I just don't know if I I want everything to be perfect when we finally launch our store, but is it something that I need to do right now? I mean, I I I I have a thought about this and and and I'd be curious to hear your take, Jamie, which is we are living at a t at a moment in time where just getting attention for anything is so much harder because it's an information tsunami, right? Like Like and we t we hear this on the show all the time. You know, ten years ago, if you launched through influencers on Instagram you could get a lot of traction. Fifteen years ago if you bought a ad search on Google, like you could really scale a business. Today it's so much harder to convert customers through social media. We're hearing that so much. Jamie, you guys you may have experienced it even a ring, you know, at the time when you were still there.

41:10 It's just harder to break through. And so my first response when you ask should I be certified? Ma is if this is going to give you some advantage. If this is gonna position your business in a way that otherwise you might not get that kind of exposure, my answer is yeah. Absolutely, but of course the calculation is Is it you know, is it gonna take a lot of time, is it gonna be really expensive, or is it g is it something that is

41:36 you know, modestly affordable, like maybe it might cost a few hundred bucks. And it might take you a week, but Then I would say, Yeah, absolutely. Like if Amazon has a program that they're gonna say, Yeah, we're gonna put this out in front of more people, or other platforms will are gonna say, Hey, you know, Francesca's business um qualifies under this program we're doing I would say go for it. Mm-hmm.

41:59 Jamie, what do you think? I I think it's exactly right. I think just be very tactical about it in terms of like if it's gonna return a thousand dollars and it costs a hundred, do it. If it's gonna return A hundred and it costs a thousand? It's not worth it, I think right now in your business. Okay. Um Because I I I I think yours like listen, you're authentic, the product's authentic. It's like all of these things are there. So unless there's something

42:22 that's going to give you the return, I don't think a certification I don't think the teacher looking at your products He's gonna say, Wait a second, is this certified? Yeah um, but at the same time, if Amazon's gonna give you more advertising dollars or some access to something and they do. I I've I you know I've seen those programs Great. Take advantage of it. They're there for a reason. I love it. Like use them all

42:44 All you can. Yeah. They help you with uh with Amazon, it's like customer engagement. They help you with the virtual bundling and things like that. Um if you get these certifications. So I just would look at like again cost to the return of that because it's not unlimited return. But there is those are Big pretty pretty big advantages on Amazon.

43:04 And also, um, you know, it it it it I you know, but as you know, as you know being a teacher, trying to sell into school districts is almost impossible trying to sell anything to school districts. But there might there might be an opportunity, right? You you never know. So It it seems to me and by by the way, do you know how much it costs to get certified one of these certifications? One I was looking at was around uh three hundred bucks um to file the paperwork. That seems worth the time and the price. Yeah. That's probably worth it. Yeah. I would definitely I would definitely look into that. Yeah. Guy was saying it's harder to break through. And I think it's always hard in the moment to break through. I think it's e when we look back, we see what was breaking through, but I think

43:48 What it what definitely happens is it changes how to break through. Yes. So it goes from Google AdWords to influencers to Facebook to Instagram to TikTok to Whatever. And I think being aggressive and trying to find those things. I'd also look at with that with Amazon, there's a program with Shopify where you can tie that into your Amazon. So you could have sort of a bit of a standalone site as well, but have Amazon as the backend. Um so I would I would also look into to how you could do that. Again, you have such a

44:18 Like Rich media content. product that you're gonna want to be able to really display it and show it. Change it out and then I bet you there's so many people that would love to be on a poster that have made it

44:31 Yeah you know, that that would represent all these different areas you're talking about. And then kind of even them posting it and putting their poster out. Like I think they'd be so proud of that. Mm. Um and so that might be a way of also just creating this sort of like what a great flywheel to create. I would also start with like I start locally, right? You're in Atlanta. Just think about some cool I mean, I just t to talk about representation, I mean, uh Topa Watana started um Calendly, he was on our show a couple years ago. Yeah. You know, born in in in Nigeria and is now running a billion dollar company like

45:06 How about a poster of a guy like that and it just says, you know um tech entrepreneur or you know, I would just start locally and just contact people. Go to LinkedIn and just find people in in the Atlanta area. Arthur Blank from Home Depot. Arthur Blank from Home Depot. I think there's some cool opportunities just starting locally. See if you can maybe partner with somebody, some folks who would be willing to Be put on a an inspirational poster. I've a loving. Cool. Francesca Thompson, the brand's called Thrive Twelve. Good luck. Thank you so much for calling in.

45:37 Good luck, Francesca. Thank you. I'm gonna get a poster it says that with with your picture on it, Jamie, and it just says See Even you can make it. If this guy made it.

45:48 You're gonna be fine. People keep cutting up my shark tank and then putting Like the story, like in like a in a real I it's over like a hundred million views, like way over a hundred. Oh, it's crazy. And it's just this like You know, got denied, then did this, then did this, and then like sold for a billion dollars. Now it usually says that I'm a billionaire, which is

46:12 When you sell your company for a billion dollars, you actually don't know. I appreciate that. That's fine. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's nice. But then everyone's like, Hey Jamie, can I get like ten bucks? Yeah, that's the that's the downside of it. Um, Jamie, before I I let you go, I have I I'd be curious, like now that you have, of course started, scaled, and exited the business that you that you built. Um

46:36 If you could like go back in time. to to you in the garage, you know, I remember you telling a story about your wife and she was kind of r you know, she was funding she's paying the bills. Like she she had a job and and you were struggling and you were f kind of really flailing and nervous and she she was like, let's take a s mortgage out of her home and all this stuff.

46:56 I remember you told me a story, but you cried. I I I do every time I think about that one, yeah. What what would you told yourself aside from like hey it's gonna be okay, what advice would you give to to Jamie Simonov before anybody. knew that he his product would be successful. I mean sadly it's not advice'cause you don't know. But if I if I really knew, yeah, I think just saying like it's like just keep your head down, it's gonna be okay. I think that's the hardest part of entrepreneurship is you don't know it's gonna be okay.

47:25 Um because it might not be. Um, and that's also why it's good to work on products that you care about, because at least then you spend some time on something that matters. But You know, even now I'm I'm back in a new business and you know, it's I

47:39 very positive and I'm excited and I'm working hard, but like We don't know where these things are gonna go and how big they can get and what impact they can have. And I think that's the hardest part is that you're kind of driving through a dark tunnel as an entrepreneur. And you just Sometimes you see a glimmer of light, but it's it's rarer.

47:56 to see the full light until you're very far down that tunnel. And you don't know how long the tunnel is. It could be one year, it could be seven years, it could be thirty years, it could be infinite. Mm. Yeah.

48:08 And obviously that's hard when you're in the middle of it. And it's hard when you're talking to other entrepreneurs because you can't just say like it's gonna be okay, keep your head down at work'cause it's not true. Yeah. Like you could keep your head down and work hard and do the right things and not get there. Um now I think most people if they keep their head down, hustle, work hard.

48:27 Focus Like I I do think you end up with a higher chance of making it. Yeah, and it may not be the thing that you originally intended to do. It but but I think you're right. In almost every case on our show and just in conversations I've had, it's It's like if you

48:43 If you focus Keep your head down, work really hard. you will be led to where you need to be going. Yeah. I think that's where your show has been gone. I think if if

48:53 Someone it's it to me it's the Harvard business review of today's generation. Um because Thank you. It really documented what it's like. And you go back deeper than just like oh you became a successful entrepreneur. Congratulations. Like what do you do now? It's it really does tell the story of how you get there and I think that's it resonates with people and gives them

49:14 in understanding what it's gonna look like going through that tunnel. Well, I hope people listen to your episode if they haven't heard already. Jamie Simonov Founder of Ring, thanks so much for for joining us on the advice line. Thanks for having me. And by the way, if you guys haven't heard Jamie's original How I Built This Episode, you have to go back and check it out. You can find a link to it in the podcast description, and here's one of my favorite moments from that interview.

49:38 We start here is like the week before Christmas, people are contacting me and saying it's not working. And their video was coming through like an old TV like tuner, like it was like all like lines through it, and just you couldn't see the picture. So Most of our units are now in the field with customers. That not only do they not work, but we can't change that software on them. So they're basically brics.

50:00 You cannot fix the ones that people have. Yeah, you can't rewrite the software on this chip. And so This was like the end of the world. Like this really was. Basically the business is over. Also, since we first ran this episode, some really cool things have happened for the entrepreneurs we talked to.

50:17 Vico actually debuted his Ergo Flex Desk at CES, the biggest consumer electronics show in the world earlier this year. Ian's chocolate company is sold out for the moment, but they're gearing up for a relaunch with updated packaging and a refreshed brand. And as for Francesca, she launched her Amazon store Just in time for the new school year. Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in big ideas about business and entrepreneurship, sign up for my newsletter at guyaz.com or on Substack. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business, the issues, or questions you'd like help with.

51:04 and hopefully we can help you with them. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at HIBT at ID.wonder.com or call us at 1800-433-252. One two nine eight. and leave a message there, and we'll put all this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Carla Esteves with music composed by Ramtina Rabli.

51:29 It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rouch. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard. Catherine Seifer, Carrie Thomson, Neva Grant, and Sam Paulson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line. on how I built this lab.

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