Matthew McConaughey: The Silent Crisis No One Is Talking About! The Harsh Truth About Living Without Faith

0:00 I think too many people quit too early. And we give ourselves the options in the parachute and things like relationships and work, self-help. And we pull at them when we can still be flying, even though maybe a rocky flight. We pull it early and okay, safe move. Got down to the ground. What I was building didn't last. But most of the time it could if you'd hung in there. But if you have any ambition, resistance is gonna come. And so own that. Matthew. Matthew. Matthew Matana You've been able to climb to the very top of the mountain again and again and again. Is this natural talent or is there anything transferable? First look at what's in your DNA. Like I wanted to play basketball, but no matter how hard I worked, I was not the fastest nor the biggest. So look at what you have an innate ability for. Then what are you willing to hustle For and this is very important. Cause some of us have innate ability, but we don't work for it.

0:47 We grew up hardcore on hustle, hustle, hustle. Sleep was sin in my household. No TV. Mom would always say, why are you gonna watch someone doing something when you can go out in the world and do it yourself? And then number three, endurance. I remember this one time when I told my agent. What I want to do is drama, no more rom. And it's 8 million. And the offer comes in comedy. I said. No thank you. Come back with twelve. No thanks.

1:11 Fourteen point five million dollar. Said. Let me read that again. Ultimately said no. I just focus up one way to get out of Hollywood. But twenty months after offers came in. Would those have come if I'd have never stepped out? No. Well, number two. If you do this, you're most likely gonna have some success in life. And that is And what about Admiral Bill McRaven?

1:32 So he shared great wisdom with me when I was seeking out male mentors. We reached out to Go. And he wrote this letter for you. He said, Dear Matthew.

1:44 Wow. Are you able to share what you were seeking guidance from him about? Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

2:13 And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guest that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you. Uh You were a

2:42 S particularly surprisingly Artistic. Creative Wise Yet materially successful individual.

2:54 It wasn't until I dove deeper into your story that I started to understand why that was, why you are to me, in my mind, such an anomaly. Because you are You seem to be several things that don't often appear in the same place. So my first question to you is What do I need to understand about your earliest context to understand

3:15 Who you are. the values you have and the perspective that you view the world with. Fun question. Earliest on. Basic values.

3:29 Of Respect yourself. Respect others. Give a damn about yourself, give a damn about others. Combined with

3:36 A mother that Wherever we went. In the world. We might have been a little nervous to take a risk at. She was like, Don't walk in there like you want to buy the place, walk in like you own it.

3:49 So a Sort of Boosting up of What you could say is massive ego. But also

3:56 You were not allowed to walk on your proverbial toes in our family. You were brought down, and if anyone In our family, if anything. I would say going back. I think mom Mom and Dad maybe could have

4:09 been a little more lenient with the successes that we had and let when we did parade, when my brother did win the the the track meet. And walk through the house like this to allow him to do that in in in but you weren't allowed to You weren't allowed to do that. You were immediately humbled, no matter if you were coming right off a victory or a win or a box office hit, you weren't allowed to. At the same time.

4:32 You were raised up once you were humble. Um that balance. We were taught resilience. Heavy, heavy duty resilience. Baseline gratitude. Quit asking me for new shoes. I'm gonna introduce you to the kid with no feet.

4:47 Well Okay. Like sobering. These were Were these aphorisms from my mother? Yeah, but they were pounded into us, right?

4:56 At the same time. I was spent thirty six years thinking I was little Mr. Texas. Because my mom told me I was. Until thirty six years later I look at the trophy and it says I was runner up. And I go, Oh, Mom was like overselling us to ourselves at the same time.

5:14 You better be humble. It was almost like that. The out anything exterior? should not give you your identity. Even though my mom's malapropin' fibbing to us going, You're little Mr. Texas. Or here, write this poem. I know you didn't write it, but it's really good, so turn that in for the seventh grade poetry contest.

5:32 Okay. And I'll win. Truy. Um so this co outlaw logic of my mom and my dad

5:43 Work ethic. H so Hassle, Hassle. Sl With sin.

5:48 In my household. Sin I saw my dad asleep one time in my life. I got up at eight o'clock on a Saturday morning and looked peeked went through the kitchen and peeked and I saw him sleep and I went and woke up my brother's like, dude, but dad Dad still asleep. He actually died two and a half months later.

6:07 and connected that idea that oh if he slept in that late he must have not been feeling well. If it was daylight, you couldn't be inside. There's a fierce sense of independent. Th thirty minutes T V a night, Max. Mom would always say, Why are you gonna watch someone doing something when you can go out in the world and do it yourself?

6:25 Turn that damn thing off, get outside. Had to be outside. I go w get out. World. Colossal. Figure it out.

6:31 Be on my dark That was just the understood rule. What about love? We always knew we were loved. There's never a question that we were loved as As

6:42 Loving our each other Loving mom and dad, being loved by mom and dad. And make and mom would always keep on to make sure you're loving yourself. I remember breakups.

6:54 Heartbroken. She'd let she let us. More. She was a great ear, very sensitive ear. to that kind of to pains like that, broken hearts. But only for a day.

7:07 After a day, She'd crank up the A C D C man. And go like. Now Ski up.

7:14 You're worth it, her loss. Come on, get out of bed. Uh uh. Come on. Uh uh quit moping, lift your head up. Come on, come on, buddy. We got this. Uh uh her loss. Give you the day.

7:24 No more than that. Our love in the family What's physical. My mom and dad. Married.

7:35 Three times. Divorce twice. to each other. They I got a great story in Greenlight of them.

7:46 Fighting and my mom bashing and Breaking my dad's nose with the phone. Him getting angry, her pulling it. Chef's knife out. Him dancing around dodging these

7:58 Blades and then grabbing a Catch up bottle and Like a matador going. Mm. Couchet.

8:07 And splattering over with it. She's getting it out of us just getting so damn and I'll cut you from your cock and your gulf and Touche. And finally her getting so frustrated, throwing the knife down, crying, both of them crying, coming together, embracing, going to the floor on the noleum kitchen floor and making love. No grudges. No grounding. Get in trouble?

8:35 Which we did. One. We were always guilty. When we got in trouble. But it was

8:42 Corporal. It was Peggy Licks. Get it up with take your license ground you'cause that'd be taking away your time and your time is the most valuable thing you got. So take it take your license you're not gonna get injured, it's gonna hurt, and don't yell,'cause if you yell More licks. You can get another one.

8:58 Lic. Licks. With a bell. I can't. I hate And Lion.

9:04 Or three things that you got in trouble for. I said I can't. My dad's teeth would just start to go. Shoot me?

9:16 Sure you're not just having trouble? I remember this one time I going out to do my chores Saturday morning to mow the lawn and I Can get the Dan Walmart to start. checked everything could get it started. I'm going inside. I said, Dad, can you help me? I I can't get the lawnmower started and

9:32 Turned around, I saw his mold or something. And he got up. Walked with me through the kitchen, through the garage, out the back yard, went to Lawmore, messed around, pulled a couple things out, da da da da da after about ten minutes. Um Cranked it.

9:47 And while the lawnmower was running right there, brrrrr. He came over to me and bent down and looked me out and goes, See, son? You were just having trouble. I said I hate you to my brother'cause I heard the word at school and I thought it could make me feel like I was older. Yeah.

10:06 It's a teenage soap opera thing and I was only nine. So I threw it out there one day at my own birthday party. My own birthday party, Sidbert, I hate you and my mom. Stopped. The entire party

10:19 Forty kids my age. In a backyard, stop it, my birthday. Stop it. pulled me around the side of the house and said, What did you say? You don't ever use that word, especially as someone in your family.

10:32 Gave me licks on the side of the house. And then Went around, she said, dry your tears, resume, birthday party's back on. Don't ever use that word, especially to someone in your family. So what did I learn from

10:45 Don't say can't. That You can even if you can't pull it off, you can go find help. Which means you were just having trouble. What I learned from getting a butt whooping for saying I hate you to my brother. Well what I was learning is the antonyms to those words.

11:02 Because saying I can't Lion and saying I hate you were bringing me pain. So the opposite must bring pleasure, right? Tell the truth. Love?

11:13 And believe that you can. That's where the values how I remember'em getting instilled. And me. And to this day. I still have'em.

11:23 trying to transfer them to my kids as well in a different way than my parents did. But I still Not even intellectually have'em. I have they're in my they're in my being now. So the the the The love was tough.

11:35 The love was ph we hugged. No. Nine hundred and ninety time nine times more than we. More than the the the hands soothed much more than they hurt. Nine hundred ninety nine times out of a thousand.

11:47 But It was a we were a physical hugging, loving Family, you always went to bed with an I love you and a kiss, even if it was ritual, which it was. Like a Sunday service. Gotta wake up. Even if I'm not listening to the damn preacher, I'm being

12:05 Subconsciously reminded that you should take a day out of the week to be At the most, number two, that you should go get sh Humbled. And say thank you to a higher power and thank you for the things that you have in your life and thank you for the people you have in your life and helping those people double down on those great attributes that they have. So the the the love was all there. I I'm happy to say that all the

12:28 I have people, you know, after that story I told about my mom and dad with the knife and the ketchup, people come and say, Oh my God, I'm so sorry about your child. You had therapy. I'm like, no. And before we please, if you don't mind Mm. Don't You feel I feel like you're trespassing a little bit by giving the by coming out of the gate saying, Oh my God, you were abused. No, I wasn't abused.

12:49 And I never felt like I wasn't loved. Again. I felt like I let my parents down those times. And did I fear my parents? Yep.

13:00 Are there a lot of things I did not do as a kid that I should not have done for fear of the consequences? Yeah. We knew we were loved. I knew I was loved. My brothers knew they were loved. My second brother's adopted. He knew he was loved.

13:20 And it was hard love and it was tough love, and my mom and dad's love was passionate love. Um, I mean divorce twice married three times is a pretty good example of can't live with you can't live without you. The one thing I remember. Being crystal clear to me when I was eight years old.

13:36 Shaking hands with these two guys that turned out now later in life I know they were actually dad's collectors. I shook their hand, Oak Forest Country Club parking lot. Sun was down in my eyes. They had shade done. Yes, sir, nice to meet you, sir. Nice to meet you, sir. I remember my eight year old mind going You know, everyone that my dad's making me say sir to The one common denominator besides being older men is they're all fathers.

14:00 And in my head I went like oh That's what success is. If you become a father, you've succeeded. And that was in my eight year old that was the math I did, my eight year old mind, and it stuck with me. So

14:14 The one thing I always knew that I wanted to be was uh dad. I mean Camilla? Fall in love. Way.

14:23 Mm. Three children. I got seventeen, fifteen. Twelve. There's nothing

14:33 That I can Put. ahead of the there's n there's let me put it this way, there's no time that I spend being a father that I Do not feel like that is the absolute best time I could be spending. You've had that since you were eight. Yeah.

14:47 I've never heard that before. I longed for that. I thought that was when you made it. Outside of wanting to be a father at eight years old, which is fascinating to me and something I wanna I do want to talk more about because I think that's a lost Uh goal in society, unfortunately, is At that age, when you sort of in your adolescent years

15:06 If I'd asked you at the time what you want to be when you're older. In a professional context, what what would your answer have been? Fifteen, sixteen years old? Washington Reds can run back. Becoming about sixteen, as I started to find out playing football, that I was not the fastest

15:21 No the biggest. Um it then became probably I don't know if I really want to be this, but I sure am told I'm a I'm a I'm really good at debate. I'm a really good debater. W I would

15:34 win over arguments with the family when it would be like where to go or You know, if I could go out and why I would have a great presentation. My parents were like, Jeez, and they give us the floor. Go ahead. Take the floor. Let's hear let's let's hear your argument. And I they'd be like Damn. And so the the word around fifteen, sixteen was like

15:53 You gotta go to Lasco, buddy. Go to l go go be a lawyer and be be the be the family lawyer, man. We'd ah dang, man. You're really good argument. You make great arguments. If it's not a great argument, damn, you got endurance. You'll just outlast people. And that became The thing. So I started to enjoy that.

16:11 And that's where I was headed, toward towards law school. And I I was um I was reading about your youth exchanger in Australia. And that you'd struggled a little bit in in class and You were skipping class to read poems. Yeah. By Lord.

16:25 Byron. Yeah. So I just I I had graduated high school.

16:34 At home in Longview in America. And at eighteen I just turned eighteen. Eighteen in my family was Freedom. If if you hadn't I remember this. If you hadn't learned it yet.

16:45 You ain't gonna learn it. eighteen was now. No curfew. You've got it. You've got it. Come on when you want, do what you want, da And I was rolling. I I

16:58 Straight A's, Mom and Dad are happy. I got a job on the weekends and after school. I got forty five bucks cash in my pocket every day. I got a car it's paid for. I'm dating the best looking girl at my school, seeing the other girl at the other school. I got a Playing golf. I got a four handicap. I've had two holes and one. I got no curfew. Talk about green lights, I'm rolling.

17:20 I don't know what I wanna do when I get out of high school exactly, but law school's coming up. But you know what? My mom goes, What about exchange students? Sweden and Australia were the two. I suppose Australia'cause Speak English in Maybe El McPherson's of it.

17:35 Yeah. Eighteen year old mine, right? Thinking right. So boom, I go to Australia. I was told I was gonna be living on the outskirts of Sydney, which sounded exciting to me. It was not the out it was the outskirts, but it was three and a half hours from there. And it was in a very small town, a population, three hundred and five people.

17:52 of Warner Bale. And I remember pulling up that gravway with that host family. And when the breaks they're like, Welcome to Australia, mate. I say. Right. No, but

18:05 I can make this work. All of a sudden. I don't have a car. I ain't got my girlfriend. I wanted to go see on the other side of town. I don't have my golf clubs. I ain't got money in my pocket.

18:17 And I got a ten PM Care for you. Even on Friday and Saturday night. I'm going to school again. So I feel like I'm going in reverse. Socially, none of the friends at the school. They put me in my junior year over there because I went mid-semester and they wanted me to go first half of the year with the juniors so I could carry on the second half of my year with what would become seniors.

18:38 So I'm going I feel like I'm going backwards. Socially no one's got it. No one's card. Car Their interests seem to be different. The teachers are

18:49 Not They're they're I'm g I'm I'm failing. I'm they're giving me Fs and everything. So I start skipping stuff, going to the Library. And find Lord Byron.

18:59 And I got my Walkman. I remember I had You two's rattling hum on cassette. Had Maxie Priest. Maxi Priest has got a great Cat Stevens cover.

19:10 And And an in excess album. Which is Nazi band. Hutchinson is lead singer. And those are my rotation.

19:21 Especially R and Hum. Rattling home, very socially conscious. album. About. oppression and and and silver and gold. Man, that's what we're all after. Oh yeah, you think that's gonna get you to the higher ground? Oh the evils of of of you know capitalism gone wrong and things like that, and freeing Nelson Mandela and all um worldly things that Bono and you two were talking about. We're like

19:47 Yeah. Making sense to me. I'm outside of my home, I'm on a for I'm on a little island. You learn, you know, to have an object first objective look back at your own life. When you leave what you know, you find out a lot about what you actually know, and all of a sudden I'm seeing what my life was.

20:03 As that. kid who got the money and I'm flowing and I'm start look back going, I missed that, but I'm also going like You're kinda good time rolling Charlie. You're you're you're popular, everything's going great for you. I didn't have any resistance in front of me.

20:18 Which was fine. But boy, now I got a lot of resistance in front of me. I don't have my friends to talk to. I got questions coming up, this family's very where have very awkward relationship with the family. They even wanted me to call him uh one night, said From now on you'll uh address us as Mum and Pop.

20:37 Which Was a seminal moment. Because Many things had happened up until that point that were odd that I was going Okay, that's just a

20:49 A cultural difference. That's that's you, McConaughey. Hey. Stay open here. That's a cultural difference. But I remember the night they said that. And it was the first time and I needed it. It was six months into my trip.

21:00 The first time I went. No. No no no no no no no no no. I'm not doing that. It was clear. It's the first time I had clarity. Remember this time I'm reading Lord Byron in the in the in the the the the library. The principals come to now see me and go look doesn't look like school's going good for you. We have this thing called work experience. Let's get you a job, you won't get paid.

21:23 I worked at the ANZ Bank. I work at the barrister's office. I'm taking these odd jobs. It's a carpenter and all these different things. And My home life is this. Over in Australia. I am

21:35 Getting home, we have dinner at five. We eat from five to five thirty. I clean the dishes. I am immediately Going back to my Room.

21:45 Take a bath. Listen to one of those three album cassettes. Read Lord Byron in the bathtub. Work one out. What?

21:57 Six nights a week. I'm running six miles a day. I've become vegetarian. I'm eating lettuce Fricking lettuce head with ketchup on it.

22:06 I'm down to a hundred and thirty five pound. I'm pretty dull gone sure that I my job is to go to South Africa and I'm supposed to I'm gonna be a monk. And that's that's w that's where I'm going. Now

22:19 I look back now and I see oh I needed these disciplines. To give me a sense of measurement each day of oh I've got my own thing going here because my home life I was lost, man. I'm lost. I don't have any f I'm writing sixteen page letters to myself. And I'm returning them. With a seventeen page letter.

22:40 Socratic letters to myself. About one. existential views, existential questions. Mixed in with Oh, everything's going great. Trying to talk myself and keeping my

22:51 Head up, you know what I mean? But I shows in hindsight everyone's like why didn't you come home early? And I remember it very clearly when I said yes, I'll go become an exchange student, the ambassador the American ambassador said, sign this contract that says you won't return To a full year.

23:12 Unless you There's a fatality in your family or you're majorly sick. And I said, I'm not signing that. I'll sh give you a handshake on it, man,'cause I'm going over there for the year. I'm not pulling the parachute. And I remember

23:26 That handshake. And I remember what my dad told me about what it happens when Two men shake a hand. That you don't need a contract, that that is the contract. And I had a certain honor with that. There was no way I was coming home. If I'd come home I'd have felt like I did my dad wrong.

23:42 So while I'm over in Australia going Inside out, imploding. I Start to find a little power. In the fact that

23:53 Oh man, the harder this gets. The greater the reward there's gonna be on the other side once I get out of here.'Cause'cause it was non negotiable. I was staying the year. So I never gave my mind the the chance to go. Well you could go home, uh uh. That was never on my pr my proverbial mental table as a choice. So I start to get identity.

24:12 Off the strength of making that choice. New rest of the year became. much easier. At least some of the troubles I was having. I was laughing at. Wasn't going to the bathtub at five thirty doing what I was doing many nears many times a week.

24:26 If at all. All of a sudden um Kinda start to live a little life. Then dance with it going, Yeah, man. It's not easy, but this is how it is. We got it. We got I'm writing.

24:36 Writing first poems in there that are wrote. And then life brings you back to Texas to study law. Yeah. Which um Doesn't end up working out for you.

24:47 Because in your sophomore year You start questioning yourself. I think based on This little book. Yep. That book right there is a gift. So you're studying law and you start questioning yourself because of s something you read in this book?

25:03 So this book We might was it into my sophomore year? I'm headed towards law school. Going to take my final. I was a studybug. I made A's.

25:14 Cross the board. And all of a sudden for the first time in my life I go Dude, you got this. You don't need to study this anymore. And I shut my books.

25:24 I've never done that before. Now I got two hours before my First exam. And look over and there's a stack of magazines over here, Sports Illustrated, Playboys, Penthouse. I'm like I like sports. I like Women too. Let's check these out. I get a I flip through.

25:38 Yeah, nothing. Nothing. Nothing. About the seventh magazine deep. I look down. And this

25:46 Book is laying there and this is what's facing me. In the s it's in the middle of the stack of the magazines. And I look at it and I go, The greatest salesman in the world And I said aloud, I go Who's that? I pick it up.

26:00 I start reading. First chapter is about forming good habits. And becoming their slave. And I remember thinking. Well, if you're gonna go against yourself and go to law school.

26:09 You're just gonna say, Well, yeah, I think I'll do it. That's not that's not a good habit, McConnell. It's a good habit for you. You might be missing out on something. You may create a new habit of just doing what you think you were expected to do. That was the thinking in my mind. And I said, All right, well I'm gonna I wanna go to film school.

26:28 I wanna go to law school, I wanna go to film school. Simply because the Book mentioned that having the habit of doing something just because you think you should or can. It's not. I verbalize that doesn't seem to say that directly.

26:43 Just saying I will form good habits and become their Slave. And I was like, If I go To law school.

26:50 That's make me a slave to a bad habit. And the bad habit being Bad habit being You'd be good at it. And what you're supposed to do, it's all you've ever kinda thought you were doing, it's what everyone expects you to do in the family.

27:03 But Member. It's keeping me up at night. Ah, the twenties, I don't know. I've also got this other thing. I've got a friend telling me your short stories are good, man. You can tell a good story. Well, we Filmmaking, you could tell me that sounds fun. Then I go.

27:19 My dad's paying for school. I gotta get permission from him first. So I go. Okay. What's a good time to call him?

27:28 I remember planning it out. I said It was Monday and I said, I'll call him now and say, No, no, no, he's at work. Don't call him now at work. He's he'll he doesn't won't be able to compartmentalize. This is gonna come out of left field for him. He's in the middle of pipe sales, right? I said I'll call him tonight and say, No, no, no, Monday back from work, it's a stressful day. Tuesday night. Seven thirty, second day of the week. He's into the work week. He'll have eaten dinner. He's on the couch having a beer with mom. Calling it seven thirty six PM. I remember the number.

27:57 Hey Pop. Hey, what's up, monkey man? Listen, gonna talk about something, sure. Yeah. I don't want to go to law school anymore. I wanna go to film school.

28:11 Little beat of sweat starts to go down the back of my neck. I'm like, Here it comes. You wanna what? I thought he was gonna go and all that stuff, but Light my ass. You think I'm being with that, you know? That could be a hobby. But yeah, no, that's not a drill job. I thought all this was coming. And after about a five second pause he goes

28:27 I hear this. Are you sure that's what you want to do? Yes, sir. Another long pause. Then I hear.

28:39 Well Mm. Don't half ass it. I remember just beaming. Popping up. It's like

28:51 Yes launchpad, man. My dad not only said okay In the way he said don't half ass it was also Yeah. Okay. Let's go, big boy.

29:01 Own that shit. Put some leverage, get some horsepower behind where you're going. Go do it. Now remember to this day. And I've learned this later, I think, from becoming a father. Part of what I believe happened to him and why he said that to me.

29:16 That way. On that call. Was the way that I asked him how I just I wasn't really asking, was I? I don't wanna go to law school, Dad, I wanna go to film school.

29:27 I didn't stutter. He heard his son saying, This is what I want to do. And What I think happened him in that moment is what I think any father, any parent loves is you you raise your kids A certain way and you give them a guideline, a ladder to climb, and here's the guidelines. If you do it this way, you're most likely gonna have some success in life and it'll work out.

29:47 And then when we do it that way, we can be proud parents. But what do we really want to happen? When our parents when our kids are out of the house and on their own. We kinda want him to call one day and go. I'm breaking out. I'm going my own way.

30:02 I'm going my own way. And As a parent We are. As much as it may scare us, we're going to

30:11 I gave my kid the confidence and the courage and the foundation to say they're gonna go their own way. And in a way I think every parent honors and loves that moment, and I heard my dad when he didn't hear me stutter. When you heard me directly. Say what I said, and I I wasn't really asking him. Even though uh I was out of respect to asking him.

30:29 The way I said it, I wasn't asking. And I think he felt that. Don't have it. Don't half assets. As a philosophy for life.

30:40 How important has that proven to be? Since then. 'Cause you've remembered it and I've heard you. reference as being important. Look, I've it be it's become quite and again not it's become more than intellectually important or more than something I don't you know I don't need to put it on my fridge. To remind me.

30:57 Um It has become important in relationships. It has become important in work. It has become important in Self health. It has become important for my own spirituality has become important for me as a father, as a husband.

31:13 relationship wise, don't half asset. What that's turned into me is another Own don't rent. Going with an owner's mindset. Into relationships.

31:26 Most relationships that we make Hire an assistant or Girlfriend, boyfriend. Most of'em don't last. No life. But

31:35 I believe that if you go into those With the idea that I wanted to be a lifer. This works out. Hopefully this is forever. Usually they don't end up being that.

31:46 But the owner's mentality will give you that per you and that person the dignity and the power to go. they c we can be everything we can be in this relationship. And if it doesn't work out, we say it didn't work out. But I'm going into the renters mentality, flip it. Yeah.

32:00 I'll do this for a few weeks. Yeah, hi this I don't know if this kid's gonna make it or maybe. Maybe a couple months. You're not gonna get the most out of that person. But it was like you in Australia, you went in

32:11 committed to owning that full experience and not leaving. Really people tell me all the time, especially married people. Cause I ask them, I say, What's why do people get married? Why don't you just, you know Why do you need the contract? And they talked to me about how going in with comm commitment itself changes how you deal with the inevitability of the messiness, the messiness that you saw in your parents' relationships and the And and challenge itself. Like ch challenge as you saw in Australia, but also in your parents' marriage is like inbuilt. Into all things meaningful.

32:40 And if you go in with that rentality, the first red light You're out. You know what you do, something happened, you're like, Oh, this is a sign of things to come. Oh, this only g No, when you get married you're like We're owning this. Oh, my alarms did the spider sense my alarms didn't start going off.

32:56 We're gonna work. Through this. And if it does become a habit, we'll work through it. Or it's a one off and I've gotta put up with it. Because They're not.

33:05 like to do what they're doing more than I don't like them doing that. Which is another good measurement. Yeah. I guess it begets the question about Yeah.

33:14 the role or the benefit of having plan B is because we're increasingly told to have plan B in a relationship or plan C, D and E and in work a plan C, D and E and Options. Yeah. Too many options can make a tyrant of any of us, man. You know what I mean? So can conveniences. You know what I mean? Yeah. And

33:35 You when you don't give yourself that option. And mind you, there's plenty of divorces out there that were necessary and we're good for both of them. Probably. But I think there's more. Divorces. Because

33:51 Someone had a little gave themselves yeah. had the renter's mentality. Ooh, first sign of smoke. I'm gonna say there's fire. Be easier to get out of here, Path Least Resistance. Sorry.

34:03 I think too many people quit. I think that's that that that's more of a problem than The divorces that are. Ones that turned out to be good. So many people are at that stage in their life where they're

34:16 They might have that bad habit that you described. They might know that they're in a situation which isn't for them. Maybe their parents gave them this idea, society pushed them into that position. And uh I think it's the uncertainty. that keeps them trapped. Like the certain misery is often much more

34:34 Appealing. Than the uncertainty. Yeah. And I I just want you you managed to to make that change, which is quite rare. Well

34:43 What that reminds me of is I started to become a little cynical. Which is different than being sceptical. I believe it. We go from innocence when we're born to naivete to skepticism. Where we're discerning.

34:55 And Discriminate on choices, we have judgment. And then the next one is off the cliff, what I think is cynicism. The misery of cynicism is a hell of a lot easier. Dandy

35:08 Optimism and belief of skepticism. Mm-hmm. Hell of a lot easier. It's a Easy. Bam, put it down. Oh, that's hard. Bam, I'm out. The individuality.

35:20 Bam nah man. It's hard. If I sweat, don't do it. Uh uh. Bam. Easy to put him down. Hey, everyone just laughed at my joke. See, it was easy. I was a life of the party. I think less respected once you leave that situation, but you've you you've you now you're living in in in doubt. And you're let and you're also doubting yourself that uh, I don't wanna work that hard. I don't wanna see if I can make that work.

35:43 Anymore. I don't want to give that person the benefit of the doubt. 'Cause it can be a lot of work and they're gonna Fucking screw up and I'm gonna go Told you so Nah, so it's not even

35:52 Try it. Or if I do try it, that's just rent. Let's do more than just sign that prenup. Well what I mean? Uh there's there's there's parachute we give ourselves the options in the parachutes in too many places. We pull it early.

36:11 When we could still be flying. Even though maybe rocky flight. Pull that time, bitch. Okay, it's a safe move. Got down to the ground.

36:22 What I was building didn't last. Sometimes maybe it shouldn't. I think most of the time It could if you'd have hung in there. Both of you.

36:32 Before we started recording, we we were having a little bit of a chat about a thought that's been on my mind recently about um how independence And I guess an abundance of choice kind of links to that might be leading people astray. Because the most it appears to me the most fulfilled people that I know generally have a lot of dependents. The culture we live in tells us to like be our own boss, stand on your own two feet, more people are lonely than ever, less friends than ever, less likely to have kids, less likely to get married. And it feels like independence. Uh and those people often I I think are struggling.

37:01 I I th I think of so many of my friends, one in particular that I've mentioned a few times, who Thirty eight years old, living the life of independence. Like a picture of independence. Yeah. Sky Rise apartment, single, no kids. Freelancer. So not going to a team working from his home. And then you know, one of my best friends.

37:19 Six months later, I see him in person. And he's flown to America, been baptized. And tells me that for three or four months he just couldn't get out of bed. There was no meaning in his life. And so now he's uh interesting. s strongly Christian man.

37:34 And we're seeing this, especially with young men in particular, we're seeing more and more of them turn to religion. Um and I'm wondering what's going on there. Yeah. Let's stay on young men for a while and this does not exclude

37:48 young women, but for the sake of this conversation, I'm gonna block it over here and say Yeah, man. We Want and needed. To be relied on.

38:03 We want and need to be depended on. And a sheer independent. individual lifestyle nothing that you're responsible for outside of what you only need. Nothing no other gardens you have to tend to career relationally, no other collective Communal.

38:24 Oh, thank you. I needed that. Who Who relies on us? How much do we need? To rely on others.

38:36 Is another question. I don't know that answer. Disgust it. How much do we Need to be. How much do we need to depend?

38:45 I I one of my self reliance is at the top of My value. system. And I don't think it is Contradictory too.

38:56 Faith. I actually think. That free will. And fate. Again.

39:01 Are here. As a believer. I believe that it's all been written at the same time. I believe God's going I need your hands on the wheel, man. Yeah.

39:10 You steer in this, okay? Don't just rely on fate. Not too many people doing that, man. I've had my agnostic years where I was Not

39:21 Believer at all. Fully in self reliant. It's on me. Everything. And I think it was such a valuable few years.

39:32 Because I did need to call myself. On some shit. I did need to say the buck stops here with you McConnell. I didn't need to become a Quit becoming such a repeat offender. You know, I was

39:45 Sinning, which means to miss the mark, miss have bad aim. Literally comes from an artery term. To send means to miss the mark. When you think about it like that, it becomes more practical, especially for us ag agnostics and stuff. I was

39:59 Missing them are. And It was time for me. I didn't want to keep forgiving myself on Sunday. And then repeat and do the same shit again, Monday two through Friday, and then go oh

40:10 And now I can be forgiven. I was like, No, man. Forgive me, father, I know what I'm doing. And I'm keep doing it. Cut the shit, McGona. Quit giving yourself that out. That parachute. Even though you may have it.

40:24 Even though Yeah. You need a I need to do Strong arm myself. Put my damn hands on the wheel. Look in the mirror and go down you.

40:35 Z the same time when I came out of that I was like, Oh, those two aren't mutually exclusive, the self reliance and belief. I heard God applauding. Going.

40:45 Thank you. I need more more like you that go. Yes, I'm responsible. The choices I make today have to do with where I'll be tomorrow. Yes, they have consequences. My choices matter. Thank you. That's what I heard. But it wasn't exclusive of having faith and belief.

41:02 Again. What caused it? That period of your life in your late twenties where you you started to drift.'Cause at that time you'd had your s first success. Yeah. As an actor. Um

41:14 I think I was living, I was giv I gave myself. the luxury of living that fully independent top of the pen house. Money. I decided to go check in at the Chateau Marmont. I lay down a hundred and twenty thousand dollar cap.

41:30 Just let me know when that's out. Me my dog. Couple of years. Bought a pair of leather pants and a motorcycle. Hold myself.

41:41 The next two years. If you ever think you've had too many? Order another one. Next two years do you ever go, Oh, maybe I should have a single Order double.

41:55 I exercised it in as in as healthy way as I could. But I was sheerly independent and I did not I was swimming, I was transient. It was Fun, but when every day's a Saturday. And every nice Saturday night.

42:10 Started looking for a little I need it. Breaking sweat here. I need I where's the resistance? Where's my I need my Monday morning. Literally? And I need it.

42:22 Here and I faith faith wise. Did the loss of your father? Around um in your twenties have a big impact on this sort of unanchoring? No, lost the father.

42:35 Mm. Dropped the anchor deeper and got more secure. That was ninety two. That was five days into shooting my first film Days Confused. The loss of him One which was I didn't think he could die.

42:48 Obviously he could and he did. And it was uh Took my mother to kill him. As you know from the story.

42:57 He made love on a Monday morning. He had a heart attack. He called it. He told me my brother Boys when I'm gonna go When I go on to be making love to your mother. And damn it if he didn't do it. But him passing away.

43:12 After the shock in the morning. Really? Woke. To go, Oh. You don't have that talking to pa parachutes again, you don't have that one.

43:27 being in your life that has your back. That in my mind was above government, above religion, everything. Oh. If I'm really in a pinch, dad's got my back. You don't have that anymore, Matthew, so all the things he taught you that you kind of been actin like

43:44 It's time to become those. And Put your ass on the line. Me. I remember I that's around the time I carved into a tree. In the middle of the night I woke up and these words were just stuck and I went and I was like I just

43:57 Be less impressed and more involved. And My father passing on. The world got flat. Things that I revered.

44:07 mortal things that are revered, people, places, all of a sudden My eye got level. Things that I was patronizing and Condescending and looking down my nose at

44:18 rose up to I level. And I was like Time to become a man. What. Forward.

44:24 Peripheral vision. Get it. Own yourself. walk forward more courage and start becoming the man you want to be instead of acting like it and putting it off.

44:34 Be less impressed and more involved. Yeah. W what did you mean by that? And where did that come from? We grew up hardcore on gratitude. I'm I'm a very thankful guy. And and being thankful and having gratitude's very important.

44:48 But you can't stop there. Because Too much just O I'm so happy to be here. You're so impressed to be here. Thank you for having me, which we should have, but if you live only there. I can't even w we can't represent.

45:04 And be involved in whatever we're doing and do it as well as we want to do it. You gotta go. No. Thank you for letting me be here, and I'm supposed to be here. Now let's go. If I'm even talking to you, if I'm here going, Man, I'm so happy to be here. If I'm just happy to be here. And go no further than that. I can't have we can't have this conversation.

45:23 I'm I'm not I'm not there. I won't be there yet. I can't be grounded enough to have have it right here. I'd be like I I'd anticipate my thoughts. I'd you know, say something that may is only the pretty stuff and not the ugly stuff, or oh don't wanna be me so to be involved allowed me to be more honest and have more courage. When we're involved, we're more honest and have more courage to do what we're fashioned to do, how we're fashioned to do it. But if we're only impressed You know, and I've had these moments. When I met the Cohen brothers.

45:51 They're my favorite directors. I revered them. Had dinner with him. I blew it. And I fumbled over my webble.

46:00 Oh damn it. 'Cause I was nervous. I was so happy to be there. I was so impressed to be sitting down with the Cohen brothers. And not involved enough to sit there and have a conversation. And I look back that night and I go, That's why they never cast me in anything. I blew it that night. And I've since seen them, and I was like. That night we met, I want to do over. Go on, brothers, if we are there, I want to do that. This is really transferable advice to both me as a podcaster, because I get to meet so many of the people that I've admired for so long, especially being a kid from the UK. But also generally for people just going to to job interviews and trying out for things that you really can inadvertently like lower your perceived value.

46:35 Just by Being impressed and not involved. Probably won't get hired that way either. Yeah. What's the what's the hiring person wanna see? Someone who's

46:45 Respectful. But if you hold them rev in reverence? They're like I don't need my ass kissed, man. I want to hear I want to meet you. I want I want don't agree with me on everything.

46:58 Yeah, I want to hear you. but back and they had a reason behind it. They weren't. You know, being a negative for or cynical, or they weren't just trying to be contrarian for contrarian reasons. They actually had thought about that and was challenging.

47:12 Yeah. Relationships. Girls, guys, what do we like? Not the one that's like Yeah, whatever you want to do. What someone's goes back.

47:19 Well how about this? I got this other idea. Oh. Oh. Interesting. You just reminded me of a guy I interviewed the other day called Jonah. And Jonah, at the very end of the call, young guy, turned around to me and said, You know, by the way, I think you should completely change this particular company he was going to be joining of mine, completely change the branding. I don't think it's good enough. And I paused. And I said to him, I never forget what I said.

47:41 I said I wanna say two things to you, Jonah. First. I jokingly went, How dare you? And secondly That is the best thing you have said in the last hour.

47:51 Because for me, he he did exactly what you did. He wasn't impressed, he was involved, and he challenged he told me to that basically our entire brand for this particular company needed to be changed and redone. So like how dare you and that is the best thing you've said.'Cause it did exactly what you said. It made me think, Oh, okay, interesting. This is who he is, and he's of value. Yay. Because people that are impressed are l much less value than those. Yeah.

48:16 Picture here. I mean this picture said a lot to me. Maybe it's just the the way that you're all gathered around. Yeah, it's pictures. So that's my oldest brother. Rooster on the right. That's Pat.

48:27 Ten year old birthday present. D. When it do me just Parents one time when he was seventeen. Check his dad's hairline.

48:37 Um That's me. Reverentially looking down on my father who's holding court. At the bar in the house. Quail Valley.

48:47 Houston, Texas. Looks like you just got off the Golf course. Uh I have a T shirt on. They have golf shirts on. Looks like I didn't play with them at that time.

48:57 But there were stories probably going on right there about something that they had just experienced. And I'm probably a little I'm trying, you know. I'm I'm probably this conversation's probably more between those two and I'm going like oh I wish I was there. in the stories.

49:12 Which only happened for me once it turned. eighteen. I had some stories before them, but that's what that Look at the reverence with which I'm Mm-hmm. Looking on.

49:21 To my dad and he was old he was old in court. He was a ham man. Him and him and Roost who were were were best friends. Um Pat worked for him. I've got to have a couple of years with him.

49:33 before I went to uh um Australia. Are you year with them? Yeah, but no, I had a I remember I had more than a full had a full summer with him, which later on I found out. Was

49:48 Their second divorce. I didn't know it was. I thought mom was on an extended vacation in Florida. So he and I had a summer of where we got to. Hang out. And I got a story in Greenlights about a night when I jump the bouncer. Big Right of Passage.

50:05 To defend him. Do you miss him? Yeah, I miss him. Creatively the most. Because he he I found out later.

50:17 And I didn't know he was doing this. Like I found out later In life years after he passed away, we found all these old paintings in the garage, and we found this pottery that he made, and he loved He had collected art and he loved charcoal paintings in pencil black and white. I had no idea.

50:36 Hm. Practice art or Or liked it. And so When I'm reading a script or I'm interested in doing a film

50:44 I still think ah I would love to sh I would love to have sent this to D what do you think and talked about Hey, you know anybody like this. What do you think of this character? What do you think of the scenario? Hey, you know any men like this?'Cause I base a lot of my characters off of people that I met. through him I whole lot. There's been many characters that are based on parts of my brother Pat, who was my hero growing up. And there's a lot of characters I've met through my older brother Rooster, but all those came through dad. And I would love to I miss having those

51:12 I wish I could have those conversations. with him. I he would have loved The other night we're Toronto Film Festival Premier in Law's Bus. My mom was in it.

51:22 She's ninety three, my little my son's in it. That could be poor. He would have come to Santa Fe. With Mom. You know?

51:32 He didn't mom wanted mom wants to be on the stage. Mom every performance I've ever done. She's like You did great, Matthew. I see where you get it from.

51:43 Dad didn't want to be on the stage. He could take the stage, but he would have He would have seen from the beginning me doing my thing from the front row and been like There you go, buddy. So I miss him as a creative partner.

51:58 And in sharing the declarations when you have a red carpet and and hearing, what's your opinion on that? Hey what movies watching movies with me? We never watched Movies? I miss that. Um

52:17 In his hands, man. He had these healing hands. And we'd have been buddies by now. Right. Out of

52:26 Philosophically, wherever we had our differences. He would have enjoyed the debates instead of looking at me at sixteen going, Who the hell do you think you are? Talking. Bucket. Like that. Which is what led him to go, You're a great debater.

52:40 Be a family lawyer. But we'd have been buddies because at eighteen was the freedom right of passage. That's when he goes. You ain't learn it by now, you ain't gonna learn it. So we would have I wouldn't have had to hear. This is a time when I'm still hearing about the experiences of yesterday and last night.

52:56 Mm-hmm. yearning to one day be able to be there and be part of the stories. And we did get a year. Together, where we got to be part of the same stories, which meant so much to me. But I would've had years of that.

53:09 Do you think he would have been surprised? But the life you've lived subsequently. No. My family's got a w got an odd thing. They aren't surprised by shit, man.

53:26 Especially any of my success. I mean my brother's hadn't even See you on my movies. If I invited them to the premier in Toronto the other night, they'd have found every excuse they could not to go.

53:44 It wouldn't have come. No. disrespect or love many last for it's just like Man, we know you though, brother. There's something beautiful in that.

53:57 Do you remember these? Yes. You wrote this roughly around the same time in ninety two. Roughly actually when I was born, funnily enough, I saw the date on the top and thought I was And again, you put fatherhood number one, but there's a a series of other things on this list of your ten goals in life. Yeah. Which you wrote in nineteen ninety two.

54:14 As you reflect on those goals do you wish you hadn't written any of them and Is there anything else you wish you had written? No that that that I wouldn't change a thing about it. Ten goals in life, become a father, find and keep a woman for me, keep my relationship with God, chase my best self, be an egotistical utilit Utilitarian.

54:34 Take more risks, stay close to mum and family, win an Oscar for Best Actor. Look back and enjoy the view. Just keep living. I don't know what I'd add to that. You talk you've talked a few times about it's this idea of like you needing resistance. Yeah. You've said it two or three times. And going back to

54:53 What it is to be a man. And what it is to be a Well orientated stable man. Meeting resistance. Is that a goal to aim for? Is that

55:03 I I think it's just a necessary necessity. Four. Having more than just An individual. Life

55:18 the top of the high rise. with money. If that's if you're successful do that. I mean I'm supposing that it's well there's different words, your friend went to Christianity for this very similar reason.

55:31 Yeah. Certain amount of guilt's very healthy. It helps us. keeps us it's boundaries. Without any shame.

55:42 Without any embarrassment, without any guilt. Tell me it's all just four dimensional? Where's the form? Where's the art where's the art? It's Four dimension. It has no form, you gotta have gravity to have form, you gotta have some resistance.

55:56 To have some form. You gotta push off of something to go somewhere. You gotta be It's very hard when you're just floating and with no gravity and no resistance to actually pursue a North Star. You have no leverage. Mm-hmm.

56:12 Floating. Where's the art? Probably more anarchy than art. So resistance gives Fam. Heard great artists say this.

56:23 Limitations. Reveal style. Mm. Resistance. Something to go.

56:37 Or else. It's like green lights. If life's just nothing but green lights. If you got no yellows and reds, no reasons to pause or crises that stop you. Resistance? This what are you just gonna go in circles? Do you run out of gas? Get dizzy?

56:55 I don't see that w how do we evolve? Or devolve. without resistance. Now Picking the right resistance. It's an art in itself. It's challenging.

57:08 I've been clumsy with it in my life. When especially when I got famous and got success. And Enough people telling me I love you and the caviar and the champagne, I was like Shit. Why me? I don't deserve any of this. What I did I'd I

57:25 Fuck things up on purpose just to Say like I I trip myself running downhill so I could bloody my own nose and go, Ah, now I can feel Okay, okay, now my heels are on the ground. I need clumsy. So

57:40 I don't think we need the counter resistance that we create that. Can harm us. Or get in our way for getting in our way. Say,'cause I've come to learn, and I think we all are, no, when things are going really well. Resistance is gonna come. If you stay if you stay with if you're a if you have any ambition

57:56 Resistance is gonna come. We often see resistance as a form of failure and something that we should endeavor to avoid. You think about the avoidance of like people building families or even Yeah. You know, many people consider that we're living in a bit of a comfort crisis. This is slightly a different sort of analogy, but

58:15 Most of the diseases that we have today, whether they're diseases of I don't know the mind, like you know, people feeling lonely and isolated, all physical diseases, eighty percent of Americans getting back pain. But no one in the Hadza tribe in Africa getting back pain. They're all a consequence of us continually choosing comfort. Yep. S which is a short term friend but long term enemy. And resistance I think is um It's something increasingly we can choose.

58:38 Opt out of. It's a choice too. I mean can I to a point on this subject? It's called tips included.

58:49 Based on participation trophies. uh um entitlement. How too much of something. Can be just as harmful. Is not enough.

58:57 Uh How we all need good fortune, good fate. Charity sometimes, but We shouldn't rely on that.

59:06 Okay. Oh. Tips included. Yeah. Credit doesn't get his due.

59:13 When more gives us less. The exchange rate's gone askew. When amnesty is offered Going into the crime. We're more bound to commit it.

59:24 'Cause there's no five. We start playing to tie. Instead of going for the win. When participation is the trophy for every cow in the pen. If I stay on the porch because you picked up the slack.

59:37 When you look over your shoulder, I I can't have your back. If there is no curfew, we're gonna stay out all night. No tab at our bar, we're gonna get drunk and start a fight. All these long lenses got us losing our sight. You keep lifting it from me, I'm gonna lose all my might.

59:53 Mm. When a four star duty So it's a six star rate. We take our hands off the wheel. And rely on faith.

1:00:03 Eating all we can at the all we can eat buffet gives us a three point eight education. And a four point two GPA. We steal from ourselves and get away with the scam. What's the measure of merit? With less give a damn.

1:00:19 Hm these unlimited options. Sure had me confused. While all the conveniences are keeping me properly live. In this red light district. with the whore of inflation.

1:00:32 The ROI's math don't pay for vacation. So let's just admit it. This extra credit's quite a fluffer. When the tip's included. Service.

1:00:43 They suffer. That's so good. But it's about that. The conveniences, the long lenses, everything's like Oh, and and we we've outconvenced ourselves.

1:00:55 What's AI gonna do to us? Talk about convenience. How much and I wanna keep hearing studies, I wonder if you have an opinion on this. How much? Of you coming up with an idea.

1:01:08 And then writing and rewriting it. Thinking about it. No, no, no, no, that's not our export. Oh no, this is what I really mean and how to get done. How much of that is really valuable. To get it beyond just an intellectual idea. More valuable than just going. Ah, there it is.

1:01:25 What's out of it? Yeah, incredibly impressive. A hunch is that yeah, we can use it for like Um Signpost. to help us oh that's good org oh help thank you for helping organize. But there's a value to us

1:01:39 Going through the sweat equity of learning something. How you how do you feel about it? I mean ex exactly what you've said, but the the studies have just that they've just come out using different things like ChatGPT have actually proven what you've just said to be true. That when people use AI to produce a piece of work. Not only can't they recall But they also start speaking in language more like

1:02:03 The AI so they start to lose their own voice. But I mean yeah, I mean for f f through history. people like Richard Fryman, the physicist, has said the best way to learn something Is to learn it. And then sort of go through the pain of writing it, condensing it down to a simple truth like you do so often in your new book, Poems and Prayers.

1:02:21 And then sharing it with the world. And then getting the feedback and if the if the world understood it like you meant it, like that poem you just shared, you you you understand it. That's evidence that you get it. Right. So I think AI is gonna be great for me. saying something to you, but not learning something myself. And I think if you know if you want to defend creativity and innovation and the ability to think, you actually have a huge opportunity, which is to go left when everyone's going right.

1:02:45 Right. And it goes to what you were saying now, you were talking about be careful when you mess mess with incentives. Like be careful when you choose be easier, right? Be careful of the unintended consequences.

1:02:57 And AI is a prime example of an unintended consequence of you taking the easier road today. Yeah. And you know, I just actually made a video about this, funnily enough, just just warning my audience about When something app appears to be like a short term friend, it's usually a long term enemy. Mm like when you know the when you choose easy today you choose hard tomorrow and There's always a trade off. Right.

1:03:22 Do you think if you choose hard today? Usually get easy tomorrow. I mean there's a there's obviously a ton of nuance to this, but um In many contexts, yes. So for example my think of I was thinking of my father, my father would never have

1:03:44 He would avoid conflict at all costs. And When I zoom out over the the decades of his life and marriage, I go, Man, that costs you big time. It caught up with him.

1:03:55 Oh my God. And me inverting that in my own life and continually just confronting it head on. has had the complete opposite effect. You never You know like when you were talking about being a young man and making that decision because you had that voice in your head saying, Law might not be my thing and you made that phone call to your father. Yeah.

1:04:15 Like what y what I hear you did is like you Realigned yourself to you. Now if you hadn't made that call. And you'd let a couple more of those bad habits, you would have got to forty and been like, Who the fuck is this girl? What is this life? You would have looked around and said, Who is she? Who are they? What is this job? Right. And that's that course correction.

1:04:34 I think It requires you to do the s the slightly harder thing today. What do you think? I agree with you. That's the uh that's The resistance.

1:04:43 Do you choose in you know No. I still gotta learn how to take a vacation. Because You know.

1:04:52 We there's some times when The winds at our back. And we've earned it. Mm-hmm. For some times when it's easy to street it's like

1:05:03 Yeah. Don't interrupt this, man. This is a sweet ass song. Trust that the hill's coming. Again.

1:05:12 Don't be so impressed with this. And don't What I have to do is to fall into when things are going really well, I go, Ah, there it is. That's the mean No it's not. Not with any ambition, it's not.

1:05:28 Or not with Life happening, it's not. But my hunch, I want to see what you think about this theory is Really shoot for an A. Make a C rather better than shooting for a C and

1:05:44 Making an ass. Bow. So go for perfection. Reality. always comes in.

1:05:53 Under it But in that moment when you see the inevitable reality, the outcome, the result. How quickly can we go? Okay, but I got so much more out of it.

1:06:09 job, the person, myself, because I went perfe for perfection. than if I'd have just gone for nah dude, just I mean, you know. Just Best class. It's again that little that owners renters mentality.

1:06:25 Mm-hmm. And but what can be hard for me sometimes is It takes can take me too long to to to come down from when, oh, it didn't hit perfection. And maybe it takes me a week to go, dude. Now do you finally realize that

1:06:40 Course you aren't going to get perfection. But you got so much more out of it because you went for perfection. Yeah. So Be pleased with reality because

1:06:48 You gotta You got a good grade on it, man. That war that was that was good. That piece of art was Wouldn't have been that true. If you wouldn't have been a little bit more than a little bit. I don't like I say this all the time and I never mean this in a in a in a

1:06:58 In a disrespectful way. I've never done a movie. Or performance that lived up to what I 'Cause I'm thinking it can be divine.

1:07:16 The masses. Magic to it, but Only in there. It's divine.

1:07:26 That's resist that's tension. That unclosed gap. And I think I think that everything that's ever been built that's great or creatively brilliant has come from someone who has a big a big expectation gap. And of course the very definition of that, you're never gonna close it. And actually the probably the reason you then are motivated to move to the next thing and pursue divine again is because it wasn't divine last time. Maybe there's Still something left on the table and that's

1:07:53 Means you never arrive. Right. You talk about a ride a lot in the Homes and prayers as well. I I also was reflecting on your mother's words where she At a very young age to you.

1:08:06 position life as a dichotomy of being humble, but like know that you're the shit. Yeah. And all those things you went through. And it's the same thing. It's like Strive for protect protection, perfection, but also know that nothing will ever get there. And can you can you be okay with that dissonance? Right. That

1:08:23 And there's a moment. And it's I think it's where the one of the arts of living is if you if you are gonna prescribe to go shoot Perfection. There's that moment when reality comes in, when you had to declare. And the cards speak for themselves. And it's under.

1:08:38 But you because you oversaw it. There I got caught overseas. Cause you oversee Expect.

1:08:48 The best this this divinity out of people and and art and of yourself. And then it always comes in under How quickly can you go ah Nice reality. I've watched so many entrepreneurs treat sales like a performance problem when it's often down to visibility because when you can't see what's happening in your pipeline, what stage each conversation is at. What's stalled, what's moving, you can't improve anything, and you can't close the deal.

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1:10:08 Imagined, if if if at all possible. Would that have made you happy? But you've been What made you scared? Both probably.

1:10:23 Because Look, I've had moments Let me let me let me tell you one uh In in in Africa. I'm in Mali, Africa.

1:10:35 Dog on country. Me and my guide who's a buddy now, Issa, we're hiking from village to village in the Banji Gara. Each village is ten to fifteen miles away. I went over there. Needing my anonymity under the name of David. I said I was a writer and a boxer.

1:10:51 Well they call me Dowda. Anyway. I uh um They didn't give a damn about the writing part, but they were very interested in the wrestling part. So each village I would go to is try to catch up to me there.

1:11:01 Strong white men named Doda. And they love to wrestle over there. They love to wrest. It's kind of a form of entertainment. The boys just Village One Night Bingama too.

1:11:13 And uh I'm laying there at fourteen mile height to get there. I'm laying on the ground stretching the Village just all kind of come up around and they're talking and chattering and all of a sudden I hear this chattering that's sort of at me. I can just hear it. And I look up and it's these two boys that are about eighteen and they're boom boom boom popping at me. And I can be like and I know enough in the tone. I don't know what they're saying because they're speaking in Bombata. I'm like, are they talking And easy goes, Yes. He goes.

1:11:38 They uh um They are the wrestlers of the village. They say other they are the best wrestlers of the village and they are challenging You arresting that. I was like, Oh, they are like Yeah. Well, they sure are talking a lot. I go

1:11:54 I don't know if they mean it. Y'all have this thing over here? We have a thing in America where if someone talks too much, they really don't mean it. He goes, Yes, we have this. We have this. And just as that happens, you hear the crowd Waaaa scream. And I look up and the two boys bam run off. Why? Because the real champion wrestler of the village, Michelle Five foot nine, tree trunk legs, about two twenty.

1:12:19 burlap bag wrapped with a rope around his waist. He showed up. He doesn't say a word. He just stands over me, points to me, points to himself, and points over here. I look over his point and there's a big dirt pit.

1:12:33 My heart starts racing. There's the challenge. As my heart's beating going, Oh no. I start to get up. Because

1:12:43 As this year saying, Oh no, I'm hearing in this or ear. If you don't You will regret this for the rest of your life. You've got to go do it. This will at least be a great story to tell. So I get up. Billage goes crazy.

1:12:55 Oh, about eighty people have gathered now. The chief comes out, I'm standing in the middle of the pit going, I'm not sure how this is supposed to go, what are the rules? She puts his hands on her head. Michelle grabs me by the waist. Mimics to me, I grab him by the waist, and he burls his forehead down into my Clavicle here.

1:13:11 I burrow mine into his. So now we're like two bulls like this. And the chief puts his hands on our head and then raises him and goes stop And the crowd goes wild. Ding ding is what Dot men.

1:13:23 So we start going around, man, and I'm thinking, Okay, I get some leverage on this guy's legs are like tree trunks. I'm like, Oh, I ain't getting him down low I'd get him over, bam, flip him on his back, he flips me back over. I backflip him off my back at Somersault and he comes in, gets me in a frickin' leg lock that I can barely breathe from, almost got to tap out from my shimmy that thing all of a sudden she comes in separates us. I'm hyperventilating, man.

1:13:51 Crowd's going crazy. He's gotta split Michelle on this side, me on this side. Uh these talisman that were in my beard, they got two of them got torn out. During the rest of the match, got blood running down me here, my knees are bleeding, my ankles are bleeding, I'm hyperventilated and covered in sweet. I look over at Michelle.

1:14:10 You're just staring at me going. Barely a glisten on him. And that's when the chief goes, B And I go. Oh shit. Here we go.

1:14:20 Boom, boom, boom. Grabs my waist, bop, bop, burrows his head, I burrow my head, we're off. Goes around again. Pretty damn good match. Strong, I flipped him, he pinned me, I we got up, got moving. All of a sudden Chief comes in, separates us. Raises both our hands. The crowd goes crazy.

1:14:37 As soon as he loves our hands, Michelle runs off. Everyone sees him go and they come in and grab me and put them me on the shoulders. Dow duh. Dowda. Dowda. I go over now I'm a big man.

1:14:51 In the village. Which means they give me the best chair that has the least Broken sort of you know, uh uh um straw on the seed, which means The village boy finds me the biggest chicken and pluck it and they cook it for dinner for me, which means they take me to the cleanest spot in the river.

1:15:07 I come back that night, we eat, I get on the roof of the hut. What a magical day. I lay back. See that. Southern Cross for the first time in the sky.

1:15:20 Like it was a neon light on a black backdrop. It was you could not see it. It was so bright, stare me right in the face. I laid there. Thirty minutes, saw twenty-nine shooting stars. Gone. I might have a direct line.

1:15:38 I might be the judge. Wow. Just as I'm about to shut my eyes, I Hello. In my throat.

1:15:50 Okay. Sit up. Uh. Gonna spit out over the Off into the

1:15:57 Off the top of the roof. lugie plastered to my face. I forgot I had put my mosquito net on. And I was like, oh perfect. Just when I was thinking, I might have the direct line. I just spit a loogie in my own face. And there became the humor.

1:16:22 Now, to finish off that story the next morning. When I left the village. Remember Michelle who ran away? Mm-hmm. I got to the edge of the village, about to make the fourteen mile walk to the next village. And there behind the first tree. Passed off the property.

1:16:37 Pop that Michelle. Not a word. Looked at me, bowed, grabbed my hand. He walked me the fourteen miles to the next village, and Got to the village border, the next tribe.

1:16:48 out and walked home. I went back. Unannounced. Six years later. Did the same trip.

1:16:56 Right into the same people, the kids had grown six years older, everybody. We get to Binji Matu. There's Michelle. He's had five kids. And he broke his hip. So he's got a limp.

1:17:08 Right. So we all agree, not another wrestling match. We have a great dinner that night, we talk, we tell stories. They're speaking Bamba, I'm speaking English, but we're just g understanding each other's sort of charades now. Get up the next morning.

1:17:24 Or leave. On that same tree. Oh Pops Michelle. Bounce. Reaches out his hand.

1:17:32 Holds my hand and fourteen miles. To the next village. Stop. How's it? Turn around.

1:17:50 I ask you. He said back then the first time in ninety nine, after that night when I Wrestled. Michelle and he walked me the first time and I got there. I was like, What tell me about la what happened last night? I do already go, oh no, no, no, no, dad.

1:18:04 You do very well. Yeah. When you accept the challenge. That is when you were big men. In district.

1:18:12 It was not about the win or the lose. You accept the challenge. And didn't you Russell Michelle. Who's not only champion of this village, but of this village and tree village back? And you handle Michelle.

1:18:27 Handled was the word. And one of those is handled. No. You come back. We make money.

1:18:36 Ha ha ha. Yeah. That's what he told me then and I went back six years later and had that experience and

1:18:45 That expires With Michelle, the respect we had if we took it. Broken up at all the fourteen miles to the next village. You accept the challenge.

1:18:57 Accept the challenge. That is when you were a big man. In this village. 'Cause I was like put me on the shoulders, man. What was it? You are big men when you accept a challenge.

1:19:08 Said he said, Whole village think. Michelle going to have strong white man named Dowda. On back in ten seconds. Over. But you handle Michelle. Not win or lose. handled.

1:19:21 But you were big man when you accepted challenge. Beautiful. And then he's there six years later? And walked me the same way. I think your question was on.

1:19:35 You know, when we When we know or how confident when we're Feeling like we're on the right. Ha Which that was a time when I thought.

1:19:46 I was so much. Think I might be the you know, Logie in my face. To me was God going You're doing good, but Not that good, but There's so many young men that are struggling. When I look to the s the stats around suicidal ideation and suicide reality, the the biggest killer of men under I think the age of forty five is themselves. And it's funny, you said earlier on about um

1:20:08 To to be a young man. You have to feel like someone depends on you. And it reminded me of someone on the show that told me when they analyz suicide letters. the the prevailing sentiment across all of these suicide letters, I think it was an Australian study. Was feeling Like

1:20:26 People didn't need you or even worse, they were better off without you. Japanese almost. And it goes it was when so when you said earlier that this, you know, we need Someone to depend upon us. It made me think about that. And then you talked about challenge. We need a resistance and challenge to to aim for. And life is removing that that challenge.

1:20:48 It's it's removing the uh Yeah, what are the new challenges? Being on the internet, TikTok. Yeah. Social media. So if those challenges though.

1:21:00 For now. paraphrase this. If those challengers may not be the ones that and we hopefully we'll find ways that they can actually pay us back in a qualitative way. Don't we need a challenge to That's immortal? Like

1:21:17 Belief In God or belief in our better self and how we are as a human and our own character and our own dignity and our relationships. And tomorrow. In our past and our kids. That are not

1:21:28 Measured and paid for. with a local mortal currency. But our pursuit That keep us having qualitative and valuable experiences that mean something to us and give our life meaning.

1:21:44 While we're doing whatever it else We're doing in life that may not be giving us The meaning or making us feel I wanna ask you something'cause as I started to read poems and prayers, you sort of confront

1:21:56 Previous rebuttals to fail. Which I imagine a lot of young people have, which is around like the science of it. Yeah. Like what what about the science? What about proof and evidence? Yeah. You confront this head on. And how do you think about that? Because you're you're someone that understands the science and the studies and all those kinds of things, but I think One, I think science is the practical pursuit of God.

1:22:16 And like we're talking about perfection, it ain't never gonna get there. But bravo for it. believe God loves a scientist. I believe he does. Going, thank you again, like hands on the wheel. Thank you for being agnostic and going, You can only believe in your science? Think you're turning your way towards me.

1:22:31 Not gonna get here, but thank you for that pursuit. That independent to bring up the word again. It's I don't know. That's the point. I can't conclude.

1:22:45 Those are nouns. Belief is a verb. Faith is a verb. in God or any of those other things that we were talking about, our better selves, each other. Those are Scientist doesn't necessarily doubt

1:23:02 Science just says, I can't believe in something that until it's proven. And if it's unproven, my craft says I cannot believe it. I believe that's what a s uh uh scientist looks at it. So I cannot believe in Or maybe it is I must doubt that which cannot be proven. I understand, huh?

1:23:22 That is not Again contradict her scientists. Or if that's your vocation, if that is your Philosophy and your life creed of how you Behave and believe that does not

1:23:34 Contradict. Belief And God, even though you can't conclude. That God exists. No, plenty of scientists that are also believers.

1:23:51 I don't know. You know, it's if it it's it's I gotta Not a lowest common denominator, but also just a

1:24:03 Another practical way. Of thinking about it. If you're like man, I don't I'm not I'm not I'm not for it. Let's just go practical for a second. Heaven or not.

1:24:14 All right. Tomorrow is not today's measurement. When the misery. Bad enough.

1:24:21 Consideration is a privilege. And that's part of what faith and religion are for. To help those in misery hang on to a hope that will most likely not be served them in this life. To sell them. Belief in faith.

1:24:36 that they will be served. And the next. And what if there's nothing there, man? What if there's nothing to hope for? No next.

1:24:48 Mm-hmm. Either way. In misery? Here. Or without a heaven there.

1:24:57 Not having any hope or faith in anything. is a certain way to remain where you are forever. But if you can find something that can keep you Going. Something like that.

1:25:10 No matter how small To look forward to and continually have faith in and chase. Well. Then your life here. Will be better than it is now.

1:25:24 Heaven or not. It's not an argument for faith. It's it is Saying though, what I think is true, what I believe is true, is that Two Pursue.

1:25:40 That divinity, even if you don't believe in the author. It's not anonymous. But if you say no and you say that's that's God, I don't believe in that author, fine, okay. Find Principles and ways of living and approaching life.

1:25:58 Yourself. Others. Neighbor himself. Oh there's Space.

1:26:04 Call'em ethics, whatever, morals, whatever you want to call'em, paradigms and sort of Law markers out there? That's gonna h helps in this life. Now. You know she had the right.

1:26:17 That's what the science the studies show that people that are do have a faith are Happier, healthier. And people can argue a as to why that is, you know. That's what I'm I wan I wanna try to be clear in this that I'm not on I'm not trying to convert people to go no you should believe in God. I get it with religion that excludes a certain amount of people that I cannot go there.

1:26:40 I cannot go w with s I I cannot purchase. the belief that some people of faith have, which is well if you don't believe Jesus is the only son of God and that's it. Then you're going to hell. I got too many friends, a lot of'em over there in Molly and round the whole world, I'm not going I can't go as far to believe that They're all going to hell, uh uh uh.

1:26:56 If there even is one, but it's when religion has become exclusionary along the way. Let's remember We bastardized it. You know where religion comes from? The word? No, I'm I love.

1:27:09 been like I talked about sin earlier to miss the mark. Religion is from the Latin root. Re Ligare Ligare means

1:27:18 To bind. Together. Grey means. Again. Religion is about restoration.

1:27:28 Got a bunch of spiritual friends who say they're not religious. And know what they're telling me? Is they want unity. That's what religion means. We bastardized it along the way. We made it a business. I don't believe that the creators of religion and Muhammad and Jesus and God are going

1:27:46 Yeah, yeah, that's fine. Now there's even stories in the Bible about going, No, that ain't fine. But So we don't throw the baby out with the bath water, I just pose the question to us to say

1:27:58 Maybe it's not religion we're mad at. Maybe we need to restore what that means. restore its original meaning and live that way instead of just accepting what it's become. In so many places, in so many ways. Poems and prayers comes to me because I started getting um

1:28:15 A little cynical myself. I started to Yeah. Default, objectify. I must have objectifying people.

1:28:26 Kind of looking down my nose at him. Upon h on hello, thinking uh there Probably not gonna make the cut. What they do. Without any reason to be thinking that way.

1:28:38 Um I start looking listening to the News and leadership and a goin'. Why wait a minute now. So we're saying

1:28:50 Сус is the key. Success is the measurement. And You can get it by lying, cheating, and stealing. And still be rewarded the gold medal.

1:29:03 W That's what's happening. Are we are we are we ready to say that's okay? Are we ready to say that's just how it is? We have leaders in positions now that are saying Yeah, just win.

1:29:14 Well just win, just succeed. But yeah, okay, you get there. You did it. Congratulations. Come to the front of the line. So what are the ethics? I don't know, what'd the winner do?

1:29:26 Well but they Wait, what about what about rules? Oh yeah, by the way, the rules if you follow them. You're a sucker. Mm. Uh I Wait a minute.

1:29:39 I'm not ready to say. That's just how it is. I'm not ready to wave that white flag. Are we? Ready to wave that white flag and go. We can see that's what it is,'cause there's many reasons to do so.

1:29:55 And so I'm looking around it. people and going, I'm not finding things people to believe in, and I'm finding it harder to believe myself. One of the things that I I learned through your writing In poems and prayers, but also in green lights is that although those people might get to the front of the queue and be awarded the medal.

1:30:15 the medal it it that you're awarded or the cue that you get to the front of might not actually give you What you want and you uh you start by sort of reframing success, which I think is a really important thing, especially for a young generation, especially for men. Who are you know the first to wanna get to the top of the pyramid in certain pursuits in life. And actually from thinking about what your your goal was of being a father. And how that's a a lost pursuit if you look at

1:30:39 you know the amount of people that are having children and um I think that's a big question. And actually that's what your writing does for me. It really m confronts me in a way to go Okay, you can get to the top of the the pile or you can get the gold medal, but be careful. what that medal represents and a medal in what. Right.

1:30:55 Relevant for what? We all want to be relevant. Okay, like relevant for what? We want to succeed. But when we succeed, do we act is it worth it if we don't profit? Yeah. You say yeah. Yeah, yeah. If more we we're we're we're we're Trying to go the quantity.

1:31:10 Is the is the is the goal. That's it. Well then if that's sacrificing quality. Yeah. Or value what we actually value.

1:31:19 Mm-hmm. What are you really winning? You winning one of the mortal games. You know? And mind you, I also think it's worth talking about.

1:31:30 I don't know the answers. Is I'm sitting over here in a privileged place to be able to say that. Yeah, yeah. Someone's in misery.

1:31:38 You don't talk to them about projecting. And sacrificing today so you can Have more tomorrow? Those people are looking at you going. I'm trying to pay my rent, but food on the table, bro. Lucky you, Matthew, you get to talk about that.

1:31:51 I'm not saying I'm not. Saying it out I belie changing my mind, but I am conscious and I still need I still have more learn from talking. with people that are going like man I'm don't I don't have the luxury to think about tomorrow. The the other thing that I

1:32:04 is particularly front of mine for me and has been for about three to six months now, is just This idea of independence, which has increasingly been sold to people, whether it's be your own boss, more people are lonely than ever before, less people are choosing to have families than ever before. This idea of independence might have failed us. And like all of my friends that are most happy have the most dependents. And my friends that are struggling now are in therapy are having what I would describe as an existential crisis, have the most independence. No one depends upon them and they depend upon no one. And the other sort of adjacent idea to this is

1:32:36 I'm writing this book at the moment called I Can't Find God, which is kind of a reflection of my own religious curiosity that maybe we do need to ladder up to something. For me. My family

1:32:47 My community. Maybe the planet then m something transcendent, something higher. Yeah. And people that don't ladder up seem to be Lost. Yeah. If you go

1:32:59 From Who we are. And make the North Star God or the proclivity to imitate and be more divine. Those things happen.

1:33:13 Naturally, through the humility, through the courage. Through the Sort of. Peace of mind. Wrong or right, that's not.

1:33:23 Oh. This isn't all there is. Mm-hmm. Let's play the immortal game. So therefore risk are much easier to take and much more courageous down here'cause you're like

1:33:33 I'm not like a Vortidein, but I ain't that afraid of it. That you know, that's that's a Very life affirming. feeling to have or I think Selfishness and selflessness are

1:33:46 In that place. You know, or humility and confidence. Hook it up.

1:33:55 You know? They're not. This They're not even this. When

1:34:02 The idea of God or God literally. Or That pursuit of just Well there's a lot of

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1:36:04 Matthew and ask you, they say, Dad No, I want to be a s success in my life. defined in whatever way I define it. Uh. been able to climb to the very top of the mountain that you aim to climb in terms of your professional achievements.

1:36:18 Is there anything transferable? You talked about hard work earlier. that people might miss um when they see such a remarkable career. Because I I look at your career journey on paper and I go, Yeah. You you did it. But then you

1:36:32 Did it again and again and again and again and again and again and again at the very, very highest level. And what like is this was this natural talent? Was were you given something in your DNA? And I know it's hard to sometimes sort of self analyze, but what is it? What is that? So I think that

1:36:58 And w wanna do try to say some version of this to my kids when we talk about their futures is look And I talked to a lot of Young people. About this. If you First if start with what do you have an innate ability to do? What's in your DNA?

1:37:14 You know, I wanted to play basketball. For years. I want to dunk. And my DNA, bro. I was never I'm never gonna dunk. No matter how hard I worked at, I was never gonna dunk.

1:37:25 That's what I wanted to do. So look at what do you have an innate ability for? Wanting to be watched Reds good running back. No. Too slow. And not and not powerful enough.

1:37:35 Well then have the innate ability. But what do you have the innate ability for? Then what then Are you willing to pursue an education for

1:37:45 Work for, hustle for. That for which you have an inability. Or And We're gonna talk about making a living

1:37:56 Is that which you have an innate ability for and now have educated yourself your talent to have a talent for Is that and how can that be? Something that the world demands. 'Cause it's supply and demand. Or.

1:38:12 You can end up doing something you got an innate ability for, plus you you become really good at it, and you learn the craft and the world demands it and you can supply it. There you go. But We don't always Some of us have innate ability, but we're not really

1:38:28 We don't work for it. We don't improve our skills. We kinda rely on what we got and it kinda we come middle of the field and it Mm. Sometimes. I don't have the ability for it, but I'm gonna learn a new craft.

1:38:40 And I'm gonna hustle at it. And and actually bec when we get good at something, we kinda can start to go home. I didn't know I loved I didn't like this anymore, but I like it now. It starts to feel good. To do over and over.

1:38:52 And you aimed at Becoming a you know, it's it says it here. It says uh Win an Oscar for Best Actor. Excetera, et cetera. You accomplish

1:39:01 so many of these goals that you had, and then there comes this point in your life where You seem to step back from being this rom com. Yeah. And it's almost as if A dream you once had failed you.

1:39:12 And you reorientate yourself. Once again to something. Yeah. So The decision to make to maybe to answer a little more of the last question.

1:39:28 I've When something's not Feeling like I'm completely In the pocket on it. On the getting it on the screws.

1:39:38 If it and also maybe I am, but it's not translating. We talked about earlier art that translates and you hear the same thing back. That's it. That's the communication of good art. Maybe I'm feeling like I'm bust my tail at something, but I put it out there and it just goes b.

1:39:53 Hm. I don't know. Sometimes it's bad timing. Sometimes Chasing the wrong. Was chasing up the wrong tree there. At least maybe I chased it for me, but no one else gave a damn. That can that can happen.

1:40:08 I've been fortunate to if something's not sittin' well in my So Even if I'm pulling it off and I'm like

1:40:18 Dude. You're the wrong comp guy. You are the you're the go to guy, man. You're number one on the call. You're the you took the baton from Hugh Grant and ran. They're e you love doing they're fun. Jeez, they pay great too. I can line him up.

1:40:34 I was getting quantity, but I wasn't getting the quality. I was like going I feel like I could do it tomorrow. And I was like, oh, nothing wrong with that. You've worked to get to that point. To where you feel like you could do it.

1:40:45 Tomorrow's like Yeah, but I don't I need some resistance. I need I wanna find something that scares me. Mind you, at that time. I've fallen in love with Camilla and she's pregnant with our first child.

1:40:58 What's the thing I always want to be in life? Father. So my life is like Oh yeah. The roof is raised and the basement is lowered and the

1:41:09 Width is wider, man. I'm feeling more Crying more, laughing louder, feeling more painful, all of it. My emotions are Life is vital. And I said, Okay.

1:41:22 What I wanna do is dramas, but Hollywood won't offer me not one, no matter how big of a pay gotta take. So I said. I can't do what I wanna do, I'm gonna quit doing what I've been doing. So chose to

1:41:32 Boom, go to the ranch in Texas. Mill is pregnant. Told my agent no more rom com, pa pa pa. Don't know how long that's gonna last. Made that decision with

1:41:42 Camilla and we said look. you know, gonna make this decision. There's no telling how long we're gonna go with that work. But if we're making a decision Like Australia. It's non negotiable, we're not going back on it.

1:41:55 You get offered a lot of money in that time. Yeah, it's a great story. So nothing comes in for from months. And I'm starting to think like, Oh my gosh, I might need to Mine and become a teacher might need to go back to law school. I found a new vocation.

1:42:10 I just brought myself a one way ticket out of Hollywood. This offer comes in. For this action comedy. Eight million dollar offer. I read it and I said.

1:42:20 No, thank you. That's the stuff I'm not doing. Come back with a ten million dollar off. I I'm not reading that again. No, thank you. Come back at a twelve million dollar offer. Guys, tell him I said no thanks.

1:42:31 Come back at a fourteen point five million dollar offer. I said. Let me read that again. I read it again. It's the same words that were in the eight million dollar offer that I said no to. But it was better written. It was funnier, man. I could see myself in it. This is could be I could make this work.

1:42:55 Anyway, I ultimately said no. And I think In my theory, I don't have any proof of it. But I think that me saying no to that fourteen point five million dollar offer A year.

1:43:08 into me leaving and saying No. More rom coms. I think me doing that sent the message got around kind of through Hollywood, Oh, McConaughey's not bluffing. What the buck's he up to? Something about that was like, Oh, he didn't just recede.

1:43:26 He's got a plan. But he's just he stepped out of Hollywood, he's turning up fourteen five. Oh, he's not rent. He's not for rent. Which

1:43:40 That's interesting. Oh, maybe a little more attractive. Well you know what be in Who might be a novel? Great idea for

1:43:51 This drama? Make a lawyer for this. Killer Killer Joe for Mod. The House Buyer's Club.

1:44:01 Magic mind. To detect it. Gotta. twenty months after. I stepped out.

1:44:15 I didn't know how long it would go. That's how long it went. All of a sudden those offers came in. And

1:44:25 I was Off and I grabbed hold of all of them I could and did em and Love. Doing'em and Yeah.

1:44:33 Yeah. Would I Would those have come if I'd have never stepped out? Not even gonna say maybe no. No.

1:44:42 They wouldn't have. So interesting how success can become a prison. It goes back to that sort of marginal Slow. Mm. Yeah. And then you have to do something drastic.

1:44:55 to realign. Yeah. Turn down fourteen point five million dollars, which is my branders were like most people going, What is your major malfunction, little brother? You know? But

1:45:06 I remembered how I felt that night when I had when it came to me and it settled and it came up and I made the covenant and and and I prayed and score on it with Camilla and we said that's the decision's made. No matter how long this goes, we're not gonna go back on the decision. So A lot of these stories I think come out about Endurance.

1:45:27 In a way. The Australian story, this story or two that remind me of like I could have pulled the parachute Sensibly. At any time. After the first three months in Australia.

1:45:39 If I tell you the details of that, you'd be like, dude. Why didn't you come home? After a year out of the business, maybe? And my dad used to tell me I haven't even heard your name in four months.

1:45:54 Why go start a new job? Just go back. Those jobs are waiting for you. The rom com jobs you were doing, they're waiting. The through line for me as well is just Yeah. In these moments you knew who you were and were not. Which a lot of people don't.

1:46:07 And you have to kinda know who you are or And are not in order to turn things down or to accept things that are for you, right? I'm gonna go one step. Previous to that. I don't know if I could say

1:46:24 I knew who I was, but An easier place. For us all to begin, and I think where it's what's more true for me is that These were times when I go I knew who I was not.

1:46:41 And I don't know what I kinda know what I wanna do. Roles that can challenge the vitality of my life, you know, j stereotype, we could say we call those a drama. But When like I had the script written. This is the one I wanna do and no one will let me do it. You know what I mean?

1:46:57 Said no to that when Australian I knew. That I couldn't be the guy who goes I'm outta here, man. 'Cause it shook on it. And I was having a sneaky suspicion that the longer this penance went on, the greater the

1:47:12 Gift would be on the other side. Did I trick myself on that? Probably. Did I was I telling myself that here? As a When I posting that.

1:47:23 On my proverbial fridge. And repeating it like a mantra? Yes. It took a while to get down into No, I actually believe that to be true.

1:47:33 You have a good relationship with uncertainty, with not having the branch to swing to. Perfectly. I hope so. My wife's out there, if you've seen this, she's probably like He needs to work on his relationship with uncertainty.

1:47:49 Ha At least in a professional context. I mean Most people end up stuck'cause they just wait for a hundred percent certainty about the escape plan or the the next maybe that's because There are every role I've ever done, I went into it at some point and felt like I was a hundred percent certain that this is going to be great. And not all of them were great.

1:48:14 So I've ha been a part of things that had the best laid plans. And turned out to be like Oh shit. There's That's all we did today?

1:48:23 I've been part of things that had the best laid plans and turned out to be like Damn. All right. I've been a part of things that Or under

1:48:33 financed and Didn't seem to have the foundation, but well we turned him in something. Dallas Buyers Club, four point nine million dollars in twenty five days. Shut that movie. quality on the screen for that much money.

1:48:52 In that many days. Jean Marc, and I director, we we turned it into that. We turn it into that. We went into it, but even that, that's another fun story. That was never

1:49:05 Real. I just we just said the producers and myself, once Sean Mark came on, the director and the producers of mine, we got in a room and said We gotta just say we're doing this in October. And so we left out there and started tell me, Yep, doing it in October. What no money?

1:49:22 My age was like you keep saying you're doing it in October you're not doing it in October. Yes we are. Yes, we are. Dude, there's no money. You're not banish. Yes, you are. Just kept saying it.

1:49:33 Other scripts were coming in. He was like, Will you read this? I'm not doing it. I'm doing Dallas Pires Club. Dude, you're not doing Dallas Spires Club. There's no time there's not a date set, there's no movie. Would you please read something for that time slot? No. Why we used so We just kinda I'm not gonna what's the word? We didn't manifest it. We just didn't flinch. We didn't stutter and we were all in alliance and saying the same thing. So all of a sudden people started believing. Has that proven to be really important? To believe what you say and to say it with a conviction'cause it goes back to what you the phone call with your father. Yeah. You didn't flinch.

1:50:07 Something seems to happen when you don't flinch. Yeah, I mean It's different than fake it till you make it. You know. Words are momentary, intent is momentous. Amen on that.

1:50:25 Yeah. Intent is momentous. Is it I write that in response pushing off of where I think

1:50:38 sort of a woke cancel culture overcompensated. Where we Bam. Hammered you for the word. And didn't give the people to go.

1:50:48 Wait, do you understand my intent? Intent to such a loss. Especially Especially. With people who are ignorant.

1:50:58 Mm-hmm. Didn't know better. Right here, but I wish more not I don't want more crimes, but I wish more of the crimes were about Ignorant. 'Cause it's the ones it's it's it's it's the bad agents that are going.

1:51:09 Oh I know. Good for me will and I'm done to do the evil. Well, that sounds a bitch. I'm sorry, maybe we do need to go in an alley and work it out. But the ones could I didn't Like I didn't know.

1:51:19 That person needs some amnesty. Go, well, okay. Or Given the a chance to talk about it. When

1:51:28 We've forgotten. How to say Sorry, dude. I didn't That's what I mean. I did not know that's how you were gonna it I didn't mean for it to land on you. Like that's not how I how I meant it.

1:51:44 Have we forgotten to do that? And aren't we getting tooled? Well the lawyers in the world just say just litigate it, do two. Whoa. What happened to Heyman?

1:51:54 My bad. Stuck my foot in my mouth, man. I bogeied. Sorry. Now

1:52:03 If I come back and do it to you next week and the next week after Pl shame on me. Repeat offender, man. You can forgive me, but don't trust me. Go I need some I need some reparations. I got to war I need some rehab.

1:52:15 Right? But my first job. On talking about forgiveness in the words and And ten. My first job if I've done you wrong and I've come asking for

1:52:26 Forgiveness. You're gonna li if you're gonna Forgive me, you've opened it up first. And if you forgive me. And you believe that I mean I I I I'm truly sorry.

1:52:41 Um Do my best not to ever do that again. If you believe that, and then you forgive me. First order of business. is for me To change the behavior that I have so I don't have to come saying sorry to you again.

1:52:54 Yeah. That I think we miss. Sometimes. Sometimes people go, I'm sorry for giving it even. All right, back to it. And all of a sudden you're like, You did it again. Dude, have a little room. I thought you were gonna course correct.

1:53:10 You know, I've got a course correct. The offenders for the first order of business for the offender to go, I'm gonna do what I can not to have Sam's hard to you again. more obvious incentive to misunderstand people now. Especially when you there's likes and follows and retweets and play. Misunderstanding someone, there's huge incentive in that.

1:53:28 And I think maybe that's created a culture of That being the default is to misunder trying to misunderstand you. Trying to misunderstand. That's interesting. I think all human behavior can be tracked to incentives. No. Come on. Trying to misunderstand people. A real want, a need.

1:53:54 Yeah, I think you're right. I'm asking this out to the world and myself. Trying to mister to be controversial what to be It makes me s significant. Right,'cause you own something and you Yeah. So you trumped my gesture. Yes.

1:54:10 What about? What about Yeah. And I'm almost Piggybacking, you talked about structure. I'm pushing off your

1:54:16 Right, right, right, right. Dude, comp we Yeah. We've gotta compare before we contrast. Double down on somebody's affirmation. Make uh the point about make the point make the positive's plural and the singular's negative.

1:54:29 Black, then you can block. Evil and the negative's path to prophecy. If we can double down, I'm not saying be foolish and say There's no negatives in the world, there's no pain, there's no evil No, let's admit it's all out there and then choose to go. I'm gonna talk about

1:54:44 Bad shit in my past. In the past tense. That's gonna block its path to prophecy. And the positive things that are working the truths in my past, I'm gonna talk about them in the present and the future tense because we're gonna keep that ball going. That's gonna be a verb. Let's make those a verb.

1:55:01 What season of life? Are you in now? Matthew. Season of life. Well the last eight years

1:55:11 I've really come to love fall. I grew up I was a summer guy. No shirt, no shoes. Bright light, extrovert, it's all good. Everything

1:55:23 Don't bitch about no shoes'cause somebody out there with no feet. Come to like fall because I think I need I Alors on. I'm interested in so

1:55:37 Many things. That my hunch is to not take on more camp fires, but to keep putting logs on the fires that I've built. And to do that The clouds that come with fall. Just nip ambition in the bud.

1:55:54 Just a little bit. Put a little bit of a roof. I kinda like I'm not As big of a fan of the thirty foot vault ceiling.

1:56:01 Right now. I I I like that ten footer, that eight footer. I feel ambitious. Looking laterally. Instead of The four dimensionally.

1:56:11 Um Looking for the dreams and the poems and the prayers. To become the reality. And I'm I like a little bit of shade.

1:56:23 Matthew, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're gonna be leaving it for. And the question that has been left for you Is What is your greatest weakness? What is your greatest strength?

1:56:39 Well. Let me talk on this wall,'cause a lot of times they seem to be the same damn thing. Dude, your greatest asset is Risk. I might.

1:56:50 I think that's where I gotta work on more. I think I need to be taking a lot more risks. You think you need to be taking a lot more risk. Yeah. That'll surprise a lot of people. Give me the context there, and the colour. I'm successful.

1:57:07 Ground. It's got a gay. I got a security guard. I got three kids. My wife.

1:57:19 Alright. Secure this. Keep that log on those fires going. That's the main thing, man. If you do that. You do that. Nothing better you can do.

1:57:32 Hang on a minute. You can do that, but you still need to engage. Are you gonna become a live in father? No. Kids need to see you go to work.

1:57:41 Need to come with you to go to work. Need to see you and your mom going places. Without them. Engage. In the world. Go find out some new things. Learn some new things. Whether that's

1:57:54 The physical frontier? Or The mental frontier. Take more risk there. To learn.

1:58:04 As Mark Waters, director of Ghost Girlfriends Past, told me one time, huh, Connie, you're never wrong. I was like, Thank you. He goes. But there's more than one way to be right. Mm.

1:58:14 My great one of my greatest assets is that When I am certain on something. I can commit to it and it can be an engine and a momentum to take me. A long way.

1:58:27 At the same time. I can leave unnecessary shrapnel. With people I care about. From my own certainty. Because

1:58:38 I'm so committed and obsessed with this truth that I've crossed that I can block out An alter alternative approach to it. Because I don't have the confidence. To go, Oh yeah, let me see that.

1:58:51 Because I still think oh but if I see that I'm gonna lose some of this. And I'm still Working on that. It was so Beautiful to read poems and prayers.

1:59:01 It was surprising and beautiful at the same time. And uh I said to you before we started recording, it's one of the first times that I felt like I went somewhere else in a while. It's funny'cause I'm not going to be able to It was three or four days ago that I f I read the first um couple of poems and then I went back a couple of days later and I think in part because things have changed in my life in those couple of days. The meaning of the poems were different?

1:59:23 The meanings of the prayer seem to be entirely different. You also have this incredible book which has been one of those smash hit. B best sellers of the last decade. Green lights. And I know that. One of your good friends. Bill McGraven? Yeah.

1:59:35 Admiral Bill. Admiral Bill McGraven. Yeah. Bill McGraven. And he was s somewhat part of the inspiration or he inspired or is the catalyst moment you seeing him speak? It's a friendship. That he and I have started to build and as

1:59:53 Is at a t at a time when I was Seeking out. Male. Mentors. Of the data post.

2:00:01 Well This is more in the last five years. Six years, seven years, and I think I wrote that four years ago, something like that. And Hm.

2:00:10 Always took my call, always took time with me. Always Just without judgment shared great wisdom. with me. And without even knowing he shared it, I think I'm just t if you ever get a chance to speak with him and spend time. He's a He's really

2:00:26 Got it going on. He's got it. He's he's he's He's really got a wonderful perspective. Are you able to share what you were seeking guidance from him about? No, the main thing I would keep Private.

2:00:39 But then it was also we we we talked about You know. Fatherhood. Husbandry. You know?

2:00:48 Um he's got a great sense of humor. And and how you know, making plans and for seasons of our life and how much to rely on those and how much are they just like No, that's just an old parable, man. Doesn't really go like that. You know what I mean? Um, and I'd give details but I wouldn't I feel like I might be speaking out of school if I did. I actually um we reached out to

2:01:09 Bill McCraven. Oh, he did. And he wrote This wonderful letter for you. He said D Marky. I remember clearly the first time we met.

2:01:19 I've been told that Matthew McConaughey was gonna be in the audience at my talk. I'd long been a fan of your movies, but candidly I wondered more about the man. Than the movie star.

2:01:28 The man I met that day. the person I've come to know over the past ten years. has exceeded all my expectations. You are as genuine as any person I know. There are no airs about you.

2:01:40 There is no pretense. There is no Hollywood ego. There is just McConaughey. You treat everyone. With respect. I've watched you.

2:01:49 with your league of fans and never once have you failed to shake a hand. Give a hug, take a picture, and thank them for their kindness. I've watched you on the sidelines. With your beloved. Locum ones.

2:02:00 When you are there, the entire Burnt Orange Nation feels better than the game. In victory your enthusiasm is infectious and in defeat. You are gracious and respectful. representing all that is good about the university and about Texas. I've watched you give back to your school.

2:02:17 Teaching the next generation of actors, writers, and poets. I've seen you work as the Minister of Culture. Bringing fun. And it's Texas flare to everything you touch. I've watched you after the tragedy.

2:02:30 In your valeting. It tore your heart out. And while others stood on the sidelines wondering how to deal with those unspeakable horrors. You headed straight to Washington. Few people I know could have brought both Democrats and Republicans together to make a difference.

2:02:43 But you did. And then you stood in front of the entire nation. And pleaded for san sanity. Through your compassion, your determination, and your love, you have truly made a difference and In so so many lives.

2:02:56 I have watched you with Camilla. And your children. You're as fine a father and a husband as any man I know. Every child.

2:03:06 Should be as lucky as your kids. I know your mother is exceedingly proud of the man you have become. Finally, I want to thank you for your friendship. Your unwavering support. And for making my home town of Austin.

2:03:19 Some place special to live. Take care. Bill McCraven. Wow. Thank you, Bill.

2:03:34 Ha that's that's that's that's something else. You know I did speak to him. Before I went to DC. After you validate.

2:03:48 And just The wisdom with The context. Setting. Do C

2:04:01 Politics. But also In that. being aware and understanding those things. Go your line, man.

2:04:18 Go your line. And uh That's That's that's beautiful. To hear.

2:04:26 You know, I Did not know. That he that he, uh thought all those things about me and that makes me feel good. I look forward to giving him a A hug over our next cup of coffee or sip of tequila, whatever it is.

2:04:42 Good man. Good, good, good, good. Man, Bill McCraben. Thank you. And everything he says in that letter is what I've had reflected to me by everybody you've met and known. We've got some mutual contacts and

2:04:53 those words ring true. And this is why I think you're a great um role model for for me, but also for young men like me who are aspiring to figure out all this stuff with all the modern temptations and you know, different paths we can pursue and all the options, more options than ever. And A

2:05:09 less clear clarity on why we should pursue resistance and family and faith. And all the things described in this letter of the the empathy, the grace, and the kindness and the respect of others. But you stand forth as an example for why all those things are the most important things. And thank you for that. Matthew, thank you for being a role model to me and so many young men like me. And so many people, not just men like me. And thank you for writing a brilliant book, Poems and Prayers, which everybody can go and get now. Um and just like me, when I read it, it might just take you to somewhere else. Somewhere else. You might rather be and somewhere else.

2:05:42 You need to go. Thank you. But then. Beautiful. Uh

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