Your Body Language Is Telling You You're Not Safe | Amy Cuddy

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/219a054ca371fc67

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I'm curious, what did you learn in the last year and a half about
getting back to like
Just being a competent human being in the world. Not even like performing well.
You know, in a sport or business, but just like how do you
Just walk around with confidence. People study combat soldiers and find that like in during battles they perform really well.'Cause they're on the same page. That's the threat. This is what we're doing. Teams work well.
Good leaders are great leaders.
Well
So that's how people were for the first couple of months. They're like, I can do this.
And then
You deplete
What
psychologists call surge capacity, which is this sort of network.
That keeps us going during acute
threats. Right. And so we depleted that. And then we all sort of went into this regression phase or you know, I mean at different times, but
Mm.
It had a lot to do with the depleted
nervous system, but also just the lack of control. We just we lost control of our lives. I mean there were external forces.
That we couldn't control.
And
That lack of real power, I think, translated into a lack of the feeling of power, of this more internal sense of agency and power.
And so
People

you know, really started kind of shutting down. Um
So I for me, I think as we kind of re-emerge, and it's not going to be like
This is the end day. Let's go celebrate in the streets. We know it's not gonna it's this
We're in this constant flux right now, which is also draining. Yeah but
As the only way we're gonna re emerge is if we regain that sense of personal power.
I mean people have to feel
that they have the ability to make change in their lives, to to do things. I know it seems so simple.
But
you know, we talk a lot about well being.
And
We're usually talking about happiness.
And you know, good physical health health and lack of stress.
But that's that's like
High well being, but I think another component that's really important is this feeling of power.
And I don't mean power over others, personal power, right. Not power over others, not zero sum power, but just personal power.
How do we get to what is that gonna look like? What is personal power?
How do we
Start to build it.
It
I think you know it is the feeling
That you are entitled
Two
Bring your
you know, your best self to challenging situations. But that also involves knowing who your best self is. And that's difficult.
Two. But it's like it's it's
I think often we don't even feel that we sort of deserve to
To be there and so we can't fully show up. So personal power is
is the feeling um
Of sort of being in control of our internal resources, our to to bring our skills and abilities forward, to be
The most sort of a
generous, open minded version of ourselves. That's that's personal power.
But if we don't ha if we don't believe that we are deserving to have power
Um
How do we get there? How do we change the belief?
Well, it's not.
And then
Start to have that.
I I mean
And let me say first.
I don't think
Personal power does is not a substitute for skills.
And and knowledge. And and I think that sometimes people
Mis hearmi.
when I talk about this topic and think that I'm saying you can just you know, you can just fake it. You can't.
Okay.
For me personal power is is is about
It is about revealing the skills that you already have. But it also gives you it gives you more
Yeah.
Right, so it's self reinforcing as well.
Because there's a lot of people that already have developed skills but they don't believe that they're deserving or they don't know how to effectively communicate those skills.
Interesting. That's right. There's so many people that I've
Um
Heard from that say
They've had a dream for five, ten, twenty years and they have the skill to do it, but they don't have the courage to put it out there. Yeah. So it's personal power.
Connected to courage as well.
I think it absolutely is. And it's it's you know, sometimes they say sometimes we have to get out of the way of ourselves so that we can be ourselves. Yes. Like we get in our own way.
But you know
I'm now writing about
Social bravery.
Right. Not physical bravery, but social bravery, like standing up for
People who are
who are being abused, who are being mistreated, or you know and and it is hard, and it's harder in many ways than physical bravery. There's there's not a lot of glory that comes with it.
You're risking, you know, being kicked out of the tribe.
But
Think about it in terms of like bystander intervention, like the studies of, you know, when do bystanders intervene in an emergency.
The best predictor
Ah bon.
Of uh
Adult
adults intervening when another adult is being bullied online.
Is sense of power.
Right.
Yes, so when people feel powerful, they also feel more courageous. Right. And so I think you know that's that
That yes, I think these things are very, very similar. And I think that
We are in a collective sense of powerlessness right now.
And so I
I I just think it's it's everywhere. And people seem like agitated at each other. They turn on each other. We are turning on each other.
I mean you s you see it.
At the
sort of group level, but also at the individual level. And and that's what happens when people feel
So powerless. What is the thing that we should be thinking of first? Is it
Let's focus on healing the wounds of our past that have made us feel powerless. Let's work on
Developing new skills to make us feel more confident and
Competent, let's focus on knowledge.
Uh I don't I don't it's hard to say like what's first for
For
It it's idiosyncratic to the person. So certainly for many people, you know, powerlessness comes from trauma. And
Obviously, you know.
There are
are different parts of the dealing with trauma process.
But part part of it obviously is understanding what happened and where that came from and that that's not who you were born as. Right. And that you are allowed to undo this. Right. Um
So there there is there is that and I don't want to neglect that
That people who
Are suffering from you know post traumatic stress.

Wha what happens if we never undo or heal the traumas?
Whether it be
you know, little micro traumas that just continue to build or bigger traumas, abuse, you know.
Accidents, you know, big breakups, things like loss. I mean they they just they they build on each other. It's sort of that simple. Like I you know, it's

The the idea of triggers is that
When
when something reminds you of that traumatic event, that sort of neural pathway gets activated and all of the feelings that went with that trauma that happened when you were twelve.
are now being activated when you're 40 and they're not helpful to you now, right?
Um they make you more powerless. Right.
But not now.
So um
You know, I I think that
We
It's
I'm s I'm sensitive about this because
People have
Just endured enormous
Trauma. And so
I don't
Some of it you just never get rid of. But but but not addressing it.
I think
Only
shuts us down more and and probably
And
makes it harder for us to know ourselves in many other like we become afraid of ourselves.
And that that makes it
I think harder for us to be a
You know, a good
partner in a relationship, a good member of society, you know, to be somebody who's
Helping others.
What do you think?
um we can do to reveal ourselves to ourself better.
So that we can fully accept who we are.
or what we've been through or had done to us or done to others or whatever it is the shame and guilt we're holding on to.
So that we can have more personal power in an authentic
uh way moving forward in those relationships. Well I think one I mean this is just a j a simple exercise. So there's um
There's
Uh
Right.
This research on what we call self affirmation, and I don't mean
Like in I don't know if you remember the old Stuart Smalley skits on Saturday Night Live.
He was like a motivational speaker and he'd say, like I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and talk on people like me.
It was daily affirmations with Stuart Smalley and by the end he'd be in a shame spiral. So he'd be trying to talk himself out of it by saying, I'm great, I'm great, I'm great. Right. That doesn't really work. If you don't believe it. Exactly. In fact, then you're just lying to yourself and now you trust yourself even less. So saying I'm great when you feel self doubting.
In a way is the worst thing you can do.
What's the best thing you can do? Uh well here's one of my favorite tasks. So actual like the the theory of self-affirmation in psychology is not about saying I'm great.
Or you know, I'm gonna win this
Event. Whatever. If you don't do that way, right.
It is
About
Afirming to yourself
what your values are, who you really are, like what do you what makes you you.
So
The task is so simple and there's so much research on this that doing the simple task
helps people perform better in totally unrelated tasks. So the task is
Two
First list the the maybe the top three things that you care most about that really
The
You if if I took them away, you would just no longer be yourself, right?
What would those be for you?
Couple of things.
I have a kind of pathological optimism. Like I think
I am upset.
When somebody does something that hurts someone else.
In a way that some people might think is naive.
But I'm glad I feel that way. I like I'm like I it it I am so
hurt that people behave badly. Like I'm I'm I'm
It tr I'm troubled by it. And I'm glad that I'm troubled by it because I'm gonna keep on trying to change that.
Um, I think it's a kind of earnestness that people find it irritating, but I'm totally okay with earnestness. And actually this is one of the things that Amy Purdy and I have in common. Yeah. Like she is like this too. You know, she's just like sad when people are mean. She's got such a great heart. Totally, but but she does stuff. She's not just sitting there being sad. Anyway.
I would say that that is one of the things that makes me who I am. And if somebody said, You're just
You know.
You're you're naive and and you really can't move forward in life if you hold on to this belief that people can be good. I'd be like, Well then I'm no longer who I am. Right.
So
The task of self affirmation is you list like three of these things.
And then you rank them and and and you may
Mm.
Maybe only ranking.
mean then based on how you feel today.
But then you take the top one.
You write a paragraph about why it matters to you, and then you write another paragraph about a time when you were able to express that.
Value that
That belief.
and what it felt like to do that. That's it. That's self-affirmation.
And so you know, some people might say, you know, being you know being creative, like art is important to me, or
You know
helping people in my community, whatever it is.
When people do that, they then are less anxious in stressful situations.
And they perform better. So for example, college students
who do self affirmation.
Um at the beginning of the semester.
perform better on their midterm exams and uh you know have uh lower uh lower levels of of epinephrine uh than than students who don't do that task. So
Self affirmation is basically you shoring yourself up.
Be and what happens is that when you go in to take like say this
A calculus exam.
You you know that no matter what happens during that exam, you will still be you when you leave.
Like no one's gonna this how you doing that calculus exam is not gonna change who you are. Interval. Exactly. I'm still gonna be this person who wants people to be nice to each other. So whether you win or get an A or get an F or you lose.
Either way you still have that value. Exactly.
Exactly.
The value
that you love about yourself.
Not related to the result or the outcome. Exactly. Exactly. But if you said like oh I'm I'm going to say that I love calculus
And then you like that would never work, right? Right.
So it's about
knowing who you are. You're not you can't be great at everything. Sorry. You can't be perfect at everything.
Mm.
And that's okay. Yeah. Right? You you will still be a you you are allowed to be you. Absolutely.
Interesting. It reminded me of a
I had Kobe Bryant on the show.
And she mentioned that
Um
earlier in his kind of basketball years when he was a teenager.
I
One summer he was like playing at a basketball camp and he didn't score one
point. When he was like thirteen or fourteen, I can't remember exactly.
But
And then four years later he's in the NBA, right? So he was like twelve or thirteen. He didn't score one point in his dad before
He went to this kind of basketball camp, said you know
Whether you do well or not, I'm gonna love you.
Like your results that are not determined based on like my love for you.
So ha like I want you to do well, but just have fun and
Get better. Just improve every day and work hard and
Yeah.
Your value is not based on
The result. Yeah. And he scored zero.
But he felt like, okay, I just want to go back and keep playing because I love the game and I want to improve. Not because I'm looking for approval.
From my father.
Wow.
Yeah, as
Friends, partners, parents, if we can continue to instill
uh that value of the person
Not their results.
then I think that it's gonna help people wanna get better results. So without feeling like they're
Never good enough. Right.
What do you think like what would you list?
So the thing of
My values are the thing that I wanna get rid of, or what do you think about it. No, sorry, no your values. Like if you were doing self affirmation, I mean what would you feel like what's the thing that, you know
makes you who you are.
I think that I really care about people like having a big heart.
I really care about.
people I want people to feel good about themselves. I want people to
have the confidence and the courage to go after what they were uniquely built and designed for.
And having you know, the curiosity to explore what it could be. Yeah.
For me it's
you know, we were talking about this beforehand that it's
I wasn't the biggest, fastest, strongest, but I had dreams.
And I pursued them to as far as I could in sports. Yeah.
And I have no regrets.
where there's a lot of guys that I knew that I played with
were way more talented than me.
That
didn't have the courage.
And I felt like man, but you kinda wasted this potential. Just like
to see what could have happened. Whether you failed or not, or succeeded doesn't matter.
For me.
What was I able to create in that process? Yeah.
And I want
the world to be able to do that for whatever it is for them.
Whatever that dream is for them.
It can be
It doesn't have to be some grandiose dream of being some top athlete, but whatever that is.
You're unique in this world.
Can you go and have the courage to figure out what that is? It's scary.
Yeah.
So how I care deeply about people overcoming those challenges. I love that. And and so but imagine how it would feel if somebody was like
I'm taking that characteristic away from you. Like you no longer have that.
I would just be like, I don't know. Right. Egotistical. I don't think you would just you would be a shell, right? And so
You know that.
So this is the the great thing about self affirmation is it's kinda the flip side. Well
I'm telling you that that's not never gonna be taken away from you. Right. Right. You can always be that person. Yeah. You will always have that value. And so that helps you then to be more present and less anxious and to perform better in other s situations. Why do you think people are so afraid of the
the pressure of not performing well or failing or getting made fun of or embarrassed or laughed at or being told said, I told you so, you you shouldn't do this. You're not good.
There's a lot in like you kind of answer the question in the question because they are afraid of being told that like they're afraid of not do doing well because they're afraid of being ashamed, like of of being ridiculed, of being it like it's mostly about how others perceive that. Like the fear of being rejected, the fear of being kicked out of the tribe, which is
A terrible
feeling, right? Like I mean the the people are more afraid of that than they are of you know physical injury. And it i it's you know, it's sort of related to
What we were talking about before.
The camera started rolling, which is that
You know
Um
This idea of bumblers and pointers.
Yes. Uh which a psychologist named Dan Gilbert j just casually
talked about once on Twitter. He said there are two kinds of people, bumblers and pointers. The bumblers are the ones just try trying. Even if they don't do it well, they're trying. And the pointers are the ones making fun of the people who are trying. And so and he said, I would rather be a bumbler. I would definitely rather be a bumbler than a pointer. But people are afraid of the pointers.
Yeah, but critics that aren't actually bumbling. They're not bumbling because they're not doing anything. Right. Except for critiquing. Exactly. And I'm I mean the w it doesn't divide quite as easily as that.
You know, I think it's not. People pointing at us.
When
It's like
Wha why?
in general, or people so afraid of like it's
Two people or one person that's holding them back from a dream they've had for years.
It's
I mean I you know, I I mean I can make an evolutionary argument that we're attuned to that kind of rejection because
Mm.
it would indicate that you're at risk of being kicked out of the tribe and if you're kicked out of the tribe then you can't you you can't support yourself. Right, exactly. But that's not true anymore in this world, right? No, right. So we still have like, you know, some sort of
primitive responses that are no longer adaptive.
And
Yeah, we're not like
For example
And
Sort of moving away from the shame a bit to fear.
Mm-hmm.
Um
When we go into that fight, flee, faint mode.
That is adaptive if you're being chased by a tiger.
But
Usually we're not being chased by a tiger. Exactly. Right. I mean psychologically it is. Well it is.
Damage of of actual abuse and bullying. Yes.
But criticism. Criticism. Yeah. Right. Um is
is not actually deadly.
Right.
our bra nervous systems feel like it's deadly.
a psychological um
strategy that you've seen or or or
Research that's shown how to actually practically overcome this.
I mean
There are little
I'm very much about like the the micro, like one of the little things that you can do. I mean, I'm not a clinical psychologist, I'm a social psychologist, so
I can't
I can't speak to therapy. Yeah.
But
I do think it's about the way we carry ourselves. Like
Realizing that how we carry ourselves
Yeah.
physically how we move, how do we interact with people, like how do we carry ourselves.
That
That
Shapes.
Who we are. Physical body language.
Physical body language and in even just you know, how we choose to interact with
Say
You know
Someone who's
Who's serving us a drink at a
Restaurant.
You know, do we choose to look them in the eye and say thank you and recognize them as human?
Um or
Do we not have the time for that?
carrying ourselves in a in in a way that is, you know, sort of
Um
both kind of powerful and also
You um

with grace I think makes us more powerful. Yes.
And
And makes us kinder people. Yeah.
Talk about the micro micro instances. Yeah.
Um
on how to overcome this if we're if we're feeling like we've got something we wanna put out in the world, but we're afraid of one or two pointers, critics that aren't gonna physically
Beat us up or
Kick us out of their lives, but how do we mean the mo like if we l let's take an actual
You know
I often ask people what is your biggest
challenge like what is the situation that you approach with dread and that you execute with anxiety
And that you leave with a sense of regret.
Oh wow. And so if you look at all if the so dread
That is you projecting yourself into a future that's not gone well. So you're borrowing trouble, basically.
Um
You know, the anxiety in the moment.
Is you thinking
More about what the other person thinks of you.
than what they're actually just thinking. You know, you're you're worried about what you said a minute ago or what's gonna happen afterwards. You're not able to be in the present.
And then regret is
or what we call post-event processing.
You're going over it, wanting to do over going
I didn't show I wasn't seen, they didn't see who I am. You know that feeling like oh they didn't see who I am.
And you wanna go back in and like in a rom com you get to have a do over. Right, right. But in the case of life's a lovely So that sense of regret becomes like a piece of baggage that you carry into the next similar situation. And then you're worried because you don't want to you don't wanna do the same thing, so you put more pressure on yourself.
What if we could you know approach with the sense of um
You know.
Composure.
And
execute it with a kind of calm and grounded confidence and leave feeling satisfied. Even if we don't get the outcome that we want, we know that we did everything we could.
to show up. They saw who who I was.
And it wasn't the right fit or whatever. Um, and I can accept that outcome. So you can both accept the outcome.
And not
have that extra piece of baggage. I was watching a tick tock recently about
Um
A mom like asking her daughter to go and I can't remember.
do something by herself in a store. And this was like an eighteen or twenty year old. I think she was going to like rent a car or buy a car or something like that.
She was an older, you know, teen or early twenties.
And she was franticing. She was like I cannot go in there alone. Will you come in there and do this for me? Will you come help me?
I can't do this alone.
The sense of like
Social con social interactions online, but the inability to actually be in front of someone and be rejected or looked at funny or
learning how to navigate in person social interactions.
Do you feel like um people are going to be struggling with overcoming the uh these fears more because of the internet and social media?
Or how can they continue to navigate?
That that fear of like the tribe in person, not just online.
I don't even know where to begin. I it's because there are also
First of all, like if I make any statement about where I stand on that.
Mm.
There will be a million people telling me I'm absolutely wrong. But but that's like and and the the truth is is complicated, right? Like and and and in some ways social media like so you know, my son's on TikTok and
I can't believe the
the courage he has now to just put a video out there. And you know, sometimes it goes and sometimes he does it doesn't. And he's not he's fine if it doesn't if it doesn't go, if it doesn't move. So I think that that's actually been really good for him.
Um
It's he doesn't feel rejected, he just feels like well
Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but I'm never gonna know if I don't put myself out there. Right. So I think in some ways
young people have become more courageous.
Um at trying things. I mean
You know, yes, I would like them to spend less time on it. And I like that he's doing music. You know, he's he's like
Putting out
My kids doing quality content. Um
But I think that in some ways it's actually given young people an opportunity

to be rejected and see that they've survived.
Right. But rejection the the rejection that I'm talking about is a video a TikTok video not going viral. It's not that it's na that which is not the same as
nasty comments like being rejected and trolled. That's a different kind of rejection.
Right, and that that's not good. Yeah, yeah.
What about the just the the anxiety of
Putting yourself out there, whether it be going into a store and just interacting with people, whether it be going giving a speech online, putting a you know
Something human interaction in person and feeling embarrassed or rejected or made fun of. Yeah. How do we learn to overcome that?
anxiety or
Stress about it.
Is it is it as simple as just you gotta practice it and just know that you're alive? I hate to say something as simple, but yes, like
I am
I
I am just not afraid to embarrass myself. And
I
I have to
Sometimes like
hold on to that. Like because I think it's
I think it was really important for my
Son to see that. Like to that that to me modeling that.
was really important. Not being embarrassed.
Yeah, being like be you know, m making mistakes, being goofy, like doing something goofy in a grocery store.
And be okay with it.
It's being okay with like
chatting with a stranger and maybe they don't want to chat and that's fine then you move on but like why not
Try. Those I think doing those things
First of all, I think it's great to model that for kids.
But I also think it's good to do it just to see the oh you you've survived.
You're fine. Yeah.
No one cares. Exactly. No one even cares.
Right. Right. So I'm all about social like
Creating social challenges for yourself. Mm-hmm.
Like if you're terrified. I think that's a good one. I mean like
Chat with someone on on the train or and I know it's hard right now. Right, right. Do something consistently. Yeah.
Ask someone
Ask you know, if you're if you're a
I don't know why grocery stores seem like places where lots of silly things can happen.
Um
You know if if someone's like checking
Oh checking you what you
Checking you out. Checking you out. That sounds funny, checking you out. You know what I mean? Like checking out your groceries.
And they they are looking down and they they seem
Yeah, grumpy.
Instead of deciding they're not friendly.
Consider the possibility that they're having a bad day and s and literally like pause and say
How are you?
You know, or like try to connect with them.
Without being intrusive, make eye contact with them.
Thank them.
Make eye contact.
Maybe they'll just
Be annoyed and not
Make eye contact back.
I feel like that kind of thing is really important to try. Um and those are things that are create sort of
social benefits for others as well. Absolutely.
This is something you've been studying.
Well
I guess decades now, which is just
Mastering confidence body language.
Overcome these challenges.
What's been the biggest challenge for you in the last ten years that you've had to overcome?
Knowing the research and
practicing these things and talking about these things yourself.
What's been the challenge for you?
Whether career or personal or I think
The challenge for me has been adjusting to
Um
You know
Mm.
being more well known than the average academic, right. Right, right, right. And and actually, you know, leaving academia. You know, I still teach, but I'm not
you know, I'm not uh full time. No. You know, I teach in executive education at at Harvard.
But I'm not I'm not a professor.
You know, I'm I'm a lecturer.
when I lecture. Really? So I mean
It was a big
It was a big leap.
To say to leave that security. Um
But it wasn't it just was not
the right world for me. But I I think the biggest challenge really has been dealing with
Becoming higher sort of having becoming higher profile and the kind of backlash that I endured as a result of that. Criticism. Which is not yes, and well, yeah, I mean criticism's fine, but
Bullying is not.
I know that this is common. Like this happens to in fact it happens to a lot of
Junior professors who give TED Talks. Really? Yeah.
It's it's funny, somebody just wrote to me yesterday she has a
Popular TED Talk.
And she
You know, she said that
at her university people started calling her Ted Girl and like sort of talking down to her.
Well respected Total. Because it was popular, right? Like it's it's like if it had been if it had not really hit the radar, it would have been okay. Really? But because people had to sort of diminish her in a way.
Mm.
What became hard for me was talking to colleagues, right? Like standing up for myself. And you you you know, the truth is we need to stand up for each other, right? When people are in a an acute bullying situation, they really can't stand up for themselves. But
I'm still figuring out
How to engage with other people in academia who n weren't necessarily bullies, but might have been bystanders who didn't do anything.
And but but to be able to to say I still deserve to be having this conversation
I I deserve
To have the beliefs that I have.
I deserve to defend
Um
you know, this massive area of research on body mind feedback, w of which you like I like I contribute a tiny bit to just because
These people don't like it doesn't mean I can't.
You know.
Say, well, here's why I do believe it.
Here's
That's really hard for me. That is the thing that I I would approach with the most dread, I think. Were you able to
Implement and integrate some of your own practices and and teachings.
when those things happened to you, when you were getting whether it be criticism or bullying or
You know, any of the stuff you were facing, were you able to actually integrate the
Yeah. Body language for yourself. I mean for me the thing that works the best
is
I mean certainly I
You know, I do
Like I walk expansively. Like I I you know, I like long strides before this kind of stressful thing. I do I won't sit
sit down with my hands in my lap like even putting your hands behind your chair
Like it kinda opens you up a lot.
Um, but the thing that works the best for me is is is breathing. And I know there is so much on breath work now and I don't wanna, you know, I'm not an expert.
But
the relaxation response that's triggered by by
certain breathing patterns is incredibly effective for me.
And you know so basically it sends your
nervous system into this rest and digest state. Which is the opposite of
Fine.
Clear.
Faint.
And and so the one that I like best is called four seven eight breathing.
And we can do it right now. Yes, do it. So I'll I'll so basically for four counts you inhale, for seven you hold your breath, and for eight you exhale. Okay. So I'm gonna count and you do it.
Okay, four inhale. Seven, hold it. Eight, exhale.
One.
Two.
Three.
Four.
One.
Two
Three.
Four.
Five.
Six, seven
One.
Two
Three.
Four.
Five, six, seven, eight.
And you repeat that a few times.
At one time you feel it. Yeah.
It will put me to sleep at night. If I'm relaxed, it makes me
sleepy, but if I'm anxious, it calms me down. So that just I I mean there's just so much research on on the relaxation response in breathing.
Um
And but what I think is interesting about it is that
that that kind of breathing is expansive just like the what I talk about, you know, like p expansive posture.
That's expensive. You're breathing deeply and slowly. You're taking up more temporal space. You're expanding your
Like your physical body more.
And when we expand.
We tend to feel more confident, more powerful, more calm.
Should we always should we be frequently be in an expansive postural state?
Well,
You know, kind of nine to five ish, out in the world doing our activities. What we should be in is is a is g having good neutral posture. So it's inter before stressful events, you know
That's when I say find a private space. I I think I said in the TED talk find a bathroom stall. Right. Which I I honestly think just
Like I thought of it the moment, but I can't tell you how many emails I get from people who are like, I was in a bathroom. You know, or or like people who see somebody in a bathroom with their arms up in the other power posing? I know I love
You can't imagine. Like I love that show and I had no idea that. I just I was like sobbing. I was like
What's so cool that you, Brene Brown and Esther Perell who have had both of them on as well, were all featured in there. And I'm just like, that's amazing. I know. I mean and I think all of us were absolutely beyond. I mean to have that and I I I know I I was telling Brene this, but
The first time I saw that show.
I
I at the end of the first episode I turned to my husband and I said, I love Ted Lasset.
That's because you are Ted Lasso. And I was like, Well, I guess I have good self-esteem then, but but I I am Ted Lasso, and so are you. Yeah, I guess. She's Roy Kent. You can see a little bit.
But anyway, yeah, the the so before these stressful situations
the ones that you approach with dread, that's when you find some space and really make yourself big. Expansive. Like whatever feels comfortable to you, expand. You know?
in front of other people it comes across as really aggressive and domineering and off putting.
But if you're in you know the privacy of your own bathroom stall or office or whatever, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to worry about cultural norms or or you know uh putting people off.
Your our everyday lives. We spend so much time like this, you know, like with our phones. And that is really bad at first it's bad for us.
just our posture and it's creating this sort of fixed thoracic stoop that peop you know, physiotherapists used to only see in like
elderly people. And now they're seeing it in like fifteen year old boys um from you know gaming and things like that.
And that's something like you can't just be like, Oh, I'm gonna sit up straight. You have to like
work that out. Yeah. Totally. But so it's it's
It's not only hurting our posture, but I it it I
I believe that it is affecting our mood.
And so, you know, find you know, even just set up your work space.
So that you can be more expansive. Um but you
We neglect our body language when it's when we're alone because w
It's language. And if we're alone, we're not talking to anyone. We're talking to ourselves. But we're talking to ourselves. Right. So it's really important, I think, for us to be
Minding our posture. Also
the there have been a couple of meta analyses recently which basically are just
Yeah, studies that look at
At all of the studies on the topic.
And and come up with a sort of
an average effect size. Like they say, yes, this is effective is this the this is a real effect.
Um
And this is how big the effect is, right? So studies that have looked at power
Meta-analysis of power posing studies.
Show really clear that
it it affects the way we feel. Like so so ex you know expanding shrinking our body. Shrinking versus expanding whether in a positive or more expansive, more confident and powerful more powerful.
psychologically you know, shrinking less powerful, less confident. But th what's interesting is that there there there are two meta-analyses.

s shows that that more of the effect
Is driven by the difference between neutral and expansive, the other one.
Shows that more of the effect is driven by the difference between
Sh you know, contractive and neutral. So I'm not
It we I we still
Mm.
In short, there's evidence that that both of those things matter. But certainly neutral is better than contraction. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
And it's probably
You know, even if you were doing a meditative breathing technique
If you're closing your body off and breathing, you're still probably limiting yourself. Yeah.
So you can be breathing and trying to relax the nervous system, but
You're closing your body off, it's hard to feel like more alive and confident and and calm on a sense, right? Absolutely. Yeah.
It's funny, I once this woman wrote to me, she said, um
I
teach people public speaking and I had this student who's really stressed out, this man and
So I got into power pose for a minute.
And he said it made him feel worse.
And she said
Then I watched the we watched the video she I she said I w I videotaped him.
And we watched the video and I was like
Were you breathing? He said, no, I didn't breathe. I held my breath the whole time. Oh my gosh. Well that's all not gonna work. So now exactly.
been like completely still in this power pose and she I mean she was laughing about it, but yeah. How long should we be in an expansive
postural states for. You know, it's funny, I I really emphasize two minutes in the TED talk because that's what we had done in the in those first studies.
Um I
I think actually less is more.
Like we've gone out to five minutes. I think that
I think that it just gets awkward. It's that it's that it's that silly like you feel weird, but also like your body get you gets sort of stiff. So I you know, I just think it's
I don't even think you have to be still. I think you can be moving in an expansive way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I I s I sometimes wish that
I hadn't
called this power posing because it was so s
It's such a sticky idea. Right. It's got alliteration. It's like we know exactly. Exactly. But but at the same time
people got fixed on on like standing like Wonder Woman or in the victory pose. And it's not it's
Being expansive.
Is more expansive.
Than than this. Yes.
In whatever way works for you.
Yeah, and the tighter you are, the probably less likely you're perform relaxed. Right.
and and football training before games and in practices, they would always tell us to be loose, you know, to
Move our body to be flexible, to be expansive, but in a loose state of mind. In a loose body. Not like rigid or you can't catch the ball if you're like too tight.
So it's how can it be expansive?
Confident and relaxed at the same time. Yeah.
Practicing that.
in life with the power pose, I think is great. Yeah.
And she did it great. She was like, a monster pose or something was also.
This facial expression that I thought was great. She's a great actor, as I'm I wonder if that was like so if like if they're like just
D do a power pose and she made it up. I just feel like
She was great.
He was great.
When um
Was there ever a time when you didn't implement this strategy and you realized
Oh.
I had
I could I should have done I could have done better.
Had I done this, but I just thought I'd had it figured out.
Um
Only
You know it's f so I really love public speaking and I d it doesn't
It's like my favorite.
professional thing to do. It doesn't make me nervous.
Um That's good.
So
For me, I think a lot of people assume that speaking is the thing that makes everyone nervous. So for me it's not it's not that. What makes you nervous? Um
C you know, interpersonal conflict like one on one.
Or
Um
I get nervous.
in like smaller groups. I I don't know. I don't know. Like talking to three people I find much more stressful than talking to
you know, three thousand people.
Um
I don't like to sit.
in a room for a long time before I'm gonna get up and talk to people.
I don't wanna sit there in a cold room. These rooms are often cold. And you know, you're going like this and you're totally s sort of stiff. And then you get up and you're like, ooh.
So I've I had that experience enough times.
To learn.
I need to be moving around. I need to be warm.
Not cold and uh and come in sort of
You know, right before I get up to present.
Or to discuss. So yes, I've had the experience of being still
and kind of, you know, hunched up for too long.
We've tal we've got the affirmations we talked about, self affirmation, uh affirming who you are, not just making up lies about yourself. We've got
What's the actual technical now? Not power posing. It's I don't I mean I call it postural feedback. Postural feedback. And I think the idea is just keep in mind your posture is is set it like th there is feedback um to your nervous system telling you either you're you know, I'm safe.
Or I'm not safe. That's it's kinda that simple. Like you're safe or you're not safe.
It's interesting, I learned a technique.
Eleven, twelve years ago, about two thousand nine, when I got into the business world and I started going to events and conferences and networking events.
I remember feeling like I'm a nobody. I'm this young kid who was just playing football. I still didn't have a college degree.
It's twenty four.
Uh and going into a room with all these professionals and executives. I was like
Why would anyone talk to me? Kinda had this feeling early on. Right. And I learned from someone, he said
Every time you walk into a door
Just act like you're trying to connect the top of your head to the door.
And just walk in and stand like every time you see a door at any time in your life.
Just practice your walking, you're entering a room just with your
You don't have to put your chest all the way out like crazy, but exactly shoulders back just a little bit, your head just a little bit taller, like you're trying to touch the top. Absolutely. Just and you said walk in with a smile.
Yeah. And every time I do that, I practice it just all the time now.
It's like it just makes you feel a little bit better, more courageous to actually say hi to someone, a smile.
little taller, your shoulders back a little just a little bit. Yeah. It really helps with that.
Um so it's something that I learned early on that helped me kind of
Just gain courage. Well, it's you know, in in ballet, it's you know, it's very much like imagining that you're going to be.
But

That I think
works really well for me.
It
That I learned in ballet is
look you're looking at the people in the balcony. And
It and that opens you up. Yes. And it also makes you more aware of of this interaction. And there's also kind of magic and chemistry in the interaction, right? You're not alone. And that that
That's a whole other thing.
Yeah. Not a whole other thing, but it's you know, that like th that I uh ability to be present with people is is like
Um
It feeds on itself, right? Like you become
the energy level picks up more and more, the more you can build that intimacy with an audience. And so by opening up to them, you're much more likely to
Create that intimacy. Yeah.
And so okay, so we've got the self affirmation to self, we've got the postural feedback if we can start implementing these strategies. Yep. I got another one. Give me another one. All right.
Um, I love this one.
So this was uh research done by um
A woman named Alison Woodbrooks, who's it
Harvard Business School, she's a professor. And
She was
like a wedding singer before she went to grad school. Okay. And she just didn't get nervous.
And she was really interested in stage fright. Like she was like why do I know it's kinda funny, she's like
This isn't hard for me. Why is it hard for you? No, but she's she's very competent, but she was really interested in stage fright. And she realized why people have stage fright. Right. And she's a very positive person.
And I think that what happened and I I
I don't wanna like tell her story for her, but I my understanding is basically that
She realized that for her
The nerves the the okay so basically
Emotions have
Two dimensions. Arousal level. Like it's a high arousal or a low arousal. Exactly.
And positive negative. I mean, there's more than that. But like think of it.
those are the two dimensions and emotions can be clustered around those.
So she realized that
She was having the same high arousal
Um
feeling in her body before she sang, but for her, she interpreted it as excitement.
Not anxiety. And so
She really it's not that she really was having it.
a totally different experience. It's just that she was like, I must be excited to do this. It's the interpretation. Exactly. So she did experiments, um
She had people do
Singing contests using like
Uh what was the video game Rockstar was R Rockstar? Modern Rockstar, yeah.
Um
Uh
She had them do like debate competitions. I think they did a math test.
maybe different studies, but she ha she assigned them to
Say to themselves
Before they did the the thing.
I am anxious or I am excited. And the people who said I am excited just said I'm excited to myself.
They did much better. So she calls that reinterpreting anxiety as excitement.
So reframe it. Like so before you go on, her name is Alison Wood Brooks. Hyphenated.
Okay.
Yeah, so anxiety is exrame anxiety as excitement.
And this is
Definitely one of my favourite. And I think
Um I think that that that
Helps.
A lot of people.
The other one is
I love that.
A bit is
Is that a lot of times when we go into these stressful interpersonal situations where we know we're being evaluated and where the stakes feel high. So like a job interview or
Or giving a talk, or speaking in class, or teaching, whatever.
It get the dread
leads us also to interpret
Other people.
To see them as potential predators, as people who don't want us to do well.
Yeah.
Mostly in life.
People actually want other people to do well.
Yes, there's Schaden Freuder. We sometimes like to see somebody fail, right? Right. But for the most part
People
are there because they they want to learn something. They want they want you to do well. And so
Um
Yeah it's not.
Comfortable to watch.
People
not doing well. And so when I started teaching at Harvard
Um
I had been you know, I taught at Kellogg for a couple of years and uh that's an intense

But
There's something about Harvard Business School that has this reputation, you know, that the and so I got there and I was like, I don't know, thirty two or something and
And
No, it was anyway, it was like mid thirties. Not that much older than the students, right? So I felt like and You could look like you could be not big and you know blonde, I'm a girl, but all that stuff. So people were like, You cannot show weakness. Really? Like you cannot
A drop of blood in the water, the sharks will come in for the kill. So that was sort of that's what I was told, right? And so I prepared like crazy for that first class. Well no, no, they're like twenty th this is HPS, so they're like they're like twenty eight. Okay, gotcha. They're pretty smart. They're pretty accomplished.
Yeah, so
Um, I really prepared like crazy, but I realized that I was approaching it with this like as a warrior.
And like first of all, that's not who I am.
And second. The roller skating warriors. Exactly. The roller skating deadhead warriors.
I I like people, you know. So like why why would I assume
That they are looking for me to fail. That they're like sniffing blood. That doesn't make sense. They paid a lot of money to go here. They work like crazy to get in here.
They want to have a good experience, not a bad experience. So
I decided to go in
with blind trust like blindly trusting them
And
Not try to sort of fake this um
You know.
Badass.
sort of you know, personality that isn't who I am. Instead to go in and be who I am, assume they want me to do well.
And so I went in on the first day and I said to them
Here's what I've done.
Here's what I love doing.
you know, I've not done this before and a little nervous about this, but I think that we are all in this together and I think we want to have a good experience. So
just kinda letting you know where I am. And I
Feel
I'm s I'm in touch with so many of the students from that
year that that first year. I think Was this pre Ted Talk?
Yeah, it was like
A year or two before
Okay. A couple three years maybe before my TED talk. And
That really taught me that if if I trust them, they give it back to me. Right? You build trust. So I go in with blind trust. I mean if you think about like in life,
You can either in these situations trust
Or not trust.
Like which which mistake would you rather be m make? Would you rather trust and be
And be wrong or not trust.
And be wrong.
Like I'd rather trust and be wrong. Usually it's not that dangerous. I mean, there are some situations where you
probably shouldn't trust. But I'm talking about just like average situations. Why not just
Trust and occasionally you be wrong and somebody actually is
Right.
But it's totally. But if you go in and you don't trust anybody
Nothing good comes of that. If they're if they're trustworthy, you're not gonna build a relationship with them. If they're untrustworthy,
You're not gonna build a relationship with them anyway. I would just rather make the that the error of tr of over trusting than undertrusting. Wow.
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Now let's get back to the conversation.
What did you learn from that first year?
uh of teaching at the
The crazy shark. First of all, they're not. They're they're people just like everybody else. Like they've got insecurities too. And and you know, like seventy five to eighty five percent of HBS students at some time feel imposter syndrome. Like they're insecure as well. Like I mean I don't they're they're no more insecure, but they've got the same stuff that they're dealing with.
And uh you know, there are a lot of
like really wonderful people in there and
The more they
The more you give them trust and and get it back, the more they're building trust with each other. So I
I
I just learned to go into every owns.
And assume that they want me to do well. That's good. And that of all the things it's funny,'cause my s my son
Um
You know, he gets
performance anxiety like probably every musician.
And
It's funny because people aren't like are always like can't you
Like this is your thing to I mean to me. Like how does your son have any perform like well he's human and also I'm his mom, right? So it's not easy to learn this stuff from your mom. Of course. Um
But that's the one that works the best for him. I said why th why would you go in
to a a performance situation, a musical performance situation, and assume they want you to fail. They don't want you to fail. They want to see you do well. They really want to be there, right? Exactly. So he says that's the one that helps him the most. And just having that thought in your mind before you enter that they want the best for me. They want to have a good time. Yeah.
Something I was nervous for a long time with public speaking and I did
I did a social challenge for myself where every week I went to Toastmasters. Yeah.
And the first week I wrote out word for word my five minute speech, which is called an icebreaker. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Toaster Masters or if you've been before.
And I remember saying to myself, I prepare for two weeks.
for a five minute speech. It was so terrified. Yes. Again, I was twenty
Four.
Um
going in to a room of
really great speakers who are all much older than me, executives, you know, professional speakers.
And I chose that one. I went to five different toastmasters clubs in Columbus, Ohio.
And I chose that one'cause it was the scariest for me. Oh that's and I was like, I don't wanna go to the easy place. I wanna go to a place that's gonna really like challenge me.
And it terrified me.
I remember I wrote it out word for word and I practiced it for a couple of weeks.
And I could not look up the first time. I had to stay here, like looking here word for word.
and dripping sweat, just humiliated, embarrassed.
But luckily
They're there to give you positive feedback. Right, they are, that's true. It's not like I'm putting myself in front of
You know, critics that are really gonna make me feel bad.
They're there to say, you know.
Here's what you did well, here's what you can do better next time.
Um
But I did that for a year until I felt like I had the confidence.
And I could go out and get paid to do it.
And for years I would go speak in front of big audiences and get paid well.
But I still had a little bit of nerves.
And I was like, why have I not gotten rid of this?
And I called one of my coaches, this was probably like five years ago, I called one of my coaches and I said, I don't know why I'm still nervous with all these events. I've been doing this for so long, I shouldn't be I'm now beating myself up.
I shouldn't be nervous now.
And he said, the reason you're nervous is because you're still worried about what people think about you.
You're still thinking of you like
Making sure you remember that joke or making sure you're funny here or you don't mess up. What if I forget this thing you're thinking about.
The distraction, right. And he was like, if you just put your attention's attention on how can I be of service knowing I'm not gonna be perfect. How can I help and add value and entertain or educate
knowing I'm gonna forget a joke, or knowing that the pause isn't gonna be there, or knowing that
I'm gonna stun her.
Just let it go and just be of be of service. And when I came from that place, I was like, I'm just gonna serve.
And I know I'm not gonna be perfect. I love that. And that has helped me let go of those nerves.
I still feel like
You know.
The excitement feeling. Yeah.
It's more like okay, every time I feel like I'm nervous or anxious, this is all about service. Yeah. And my friend Rory Vaden says it's hard to be nervous.
When your heart's on service. That's so true. I mean, give your heart to the audience, you know. I mean, it's very related to this trust piece, right? Like they they want to get something out of this.
Um
That made me think of two things. Wha uh
One was the
Uh
I once asked the
The
person at at HBS who I thought was like the best teacher. I said

When did sh when did you realize
That you
Um
Like that you were it's clear that she knows she's really good at this, right? Like how when did you realise that? And she said
I went from being a good teacher to a great teacher.
The moment that I stopped
thinking about what they were thinking of me and started just thinking about what they were thinking. Right. So I cared about what they
Wha what
Like I I started watching their faces. Were they confused about something that I said? Like like n n so it wasn't about me, it was about the content. Yes. And helping them to learn. Yeah and I thought that was really good. You know, stop thinking about what they're thinking of you.
And start thinking about what they're thinking. Why is that so hard for us to do in general? Well, I mean it's back to that social rejection piece. Because we're
Environmentally like sorry, e evolutionarily attuned to looking for signals that we're gonna get kicked out. Right.
And
I I I don't know why we're still like that, you know? I d and I don't know of a culture where people aren't like that. You know, it's it's not like I can think of a society where people aren't.
Don't have that.
H
So that was one thing you said you were gonna say, do you remember the second thing?
Oh no, I did remember, actually. It's that
People love
Окей, с перформансы.
Are performances that have never happened before and will never happen again. So in front of a live audience. Like when you go see a sh part of why I love The Dead, The Grateful Dead, the Dead and Company, is because they ha never played the same show twice. Like every single show.
Thousands of shows is completely different. They've never played the same set list.
For the entire set list twice.
They always change it. Never.
Yes.
Mm.
And might be one song different and replaced, but then no, it's it's really mixed up. Like it's really changed. And there are all these jams in between. So I mean th there are just no two shows that are even close to being identical.
And that's part of what people love about it. They don't yes, sometimes
Sometimes they forget the lyrics.
You know.
Five hundred songs in their catalog, right?
So but nobody cares. In fact like last year I mean sorry, last night at
Chula this.
Bob Weir forgot the lyrics. And people loved it. The crowd like roared. They love that. They're cheering them on to remember it again. Yeah, and it's just like you're real. You're here with us. You are being here with us.
So I always say give people an experience that has never happened before and that will never happen again. That doesn't mean you have to rewrite a completely new speech, but know that audience, know who they are.
And don't don't be overscripted. You know, people want it to be a bit raw. Yes. And
You know, th they remember the performance where somebody, you know, dropped their guitar pick and had to pick and and didn't have another one or
That's it's like
I got to see that thing. Yeah, the mic went out and you had a screen or whatever. Exactly.
Um so I think that making mistakes is is not only not bad, but
It's
it makes you more human and relatable. More interesting. More interesting, right, and more memorable for sure. More m more memorable.
Identity came to my mind just now.
Um
And I'm curious about
your research or just your personal findings on shaping our own identity with ourselves, shaping our identity, having an identity and how that holds us and how that either helps us or hurts us with our confidence
And our personal power.
Well, I mean there's so many different kinds of id identities that we can have.
I I think that when we get
I mean there's
Mm.
Like it's important. Is it important to have a
specific type of identity is is important to have a
A wide range of identities of things that we're into tell me what kind of identity you're talking about. Like uh
And identity is uh you know, I'm
I'm a m I'm a I'm a man from Oh I grew up in Ohio. I you know, I love football. I you know, I love park you know, all these different things that are alike's interests and I we identify as. Well, I think that we like the the self affirmation stuff is all about values. And so your identity uh like your identity is your values.
And that I think is
Is great.
um being true to your values is is great. The values I'm talking about are not values that
need to be flexible. They can be wide, right?
But I think that when we get really identified with a certain group.
Or interests.
It can get dangerous. I mean, I think first we stop thinking for ourselves.
And we start becoming much more
much more concerned about r m remaining part of the group than about
Our value, our personal value. Exactly. And so we compromise ourselves.
To be in the group.
And
And I think that that can be really dangerous. Like we're losing our sense of agency for sure.
But also, you know, might be doing things that are are not
are not good. Right. Like not healthy for us or for other people. So that that I think can be I think we need to stay in check.
Uh around.
Around.
identity.
In that way. Just because it's what most people in the group are doing doesn't mean it's what I need to be doing. That's
That supports that. I think it
I I'm and this is not empirical. I'm just this is kind of off the cuff, but I've been thinking about this a little bit lately. Like
You know, thinking about what are my identity groups that I chose. Like what are the what are my chosen identity groups.
And
You know, are there things that have happened in those identity groups that
I don't agree with but I we're I didn't do anything
to correct it or I
I kinda let it slide. Like how can I keep myself how can I keep myself honest?
about these identity groups.
Right.
Because you may like uh you may like the the you know the grateful dead.
But there may be things that happen at the concerts that you don't
A knowledge you don't like.
But you don't wanna be well, I'm never gonna watch her or support the Grateful Debtor again because this happened. That's right. But how can I make sure yeah.
I can enjoy a hobby and an interest but not the the identity of that thing.
Yeah. And so so I think that th yeah, there are things that happen at at uh at shows that I
you know, haven't been liking lately. Like you know, we talked about this a bit like be people being very territorial in the front space, which is called the pit, you know, about their space. And being really nasty to each other. It kinda goes against
To me the the whole sort of
essence of that community.
Um
And I get
angry about it. Like you know, and I
It but part of it feels like
righteous anger. Like I d I want you to not be that way, but I also need to check myself like
I don't want to contribute to the anger either.
Um
But it also doesn't like because it's imperfect doesn't mean that I have to leave it. Yeah.
Right.'Cause I get into the I I get into that trap sometimes. I I sort of get into the like
Uh oh, there's something wrong. I probably shouldn't do this anymore.
And I I need to
Except that nothing's perfect.
And
And
I'm still allowed to love imperfect things.
As long as I'm checking myself.
Right.
Does that make sense? No, it makes sense, yeah, yeah, for sure.
There's the um we talked about this a little bit earlier about the kind of fake it till you make it thing, but it's more of like facing it till you make it, I think is what how you reframe a writing. I say fake it till you become it. Fake it till you become it. Yeah. Yeah.
'Cause it's hard to well it's
What you know, why is fake it to you make it harmful?
If it's like let me just keep faking and hopefully that'll it'll happen.
I think the pro I mean and it depends on how people interpret it. I realize but
Mm the way I interpret fake it till you make it.
is kinda like you know
Student.
You know
The
The slick salesperson.
H
like really does not buy what they're selling.
But they're gonna
So hard.
Um
And
And never
And they're going to be faking the they will
Yeah, but making it might be m you know being promoted or making a lot of money. But they're they're they're still faking it, right? You you don't really ever faking it till you make it means
Faking it.
getting the promotion and continuing to fake it. Fake it till you become it.
And it's it's also that what you're conveying to other people.
Making it till you become it, the way that I
Think of this as your tricking yourself.
into believing in yourself, right? You're tricking yourself
Into
You know
A like incrementally
Yeah.
Um
uh be a little bit more courageous and eventually you become the person
that you are in your mind's eyes your best self. Right. So you're not becoming you're basically
It's like
I kind of think of it visually like you you know, you're this
Yeah, we're
I we're not sh just shells, but th if think of yourself as a shell and you're sort of half full.
You know, faking it till you become it is sort of filling that
Filling that shell more and more and more. You're partially, but you're not fully there. Because imposter syndrome is a w is a term that's been thrown around a lot in the last couple of years. I'm hearing it all the time. Everyone's saying not everyone, but a lot of people are saying
I feel a sense of impostor syndrome like I don't belong or I'm not ready or I don't have the whatever.
Right.
Um
For me
I have I felt like I had nothing at the beginning and I was just like
I'm just gonna throw myself in and if it works great and if it doesn't, I have
Uh
I'm I'm nothing to embarrass myself because I had nothing. I was living on my sister's couch for a year and a half. I had no money, I didn't have a college degree.
So I was like, there's nowhere else I can go that's worse than where I'm at. Yeah.
I didn't have anything to lose. I was just like, I have nothing to lose. So I'm gonna throw myself in there and hopefully certain things happen. So I didn't feel like an imposter.
I felt like
I'm an experience and I need to figure out how to gain experience.
By learning skills, by finding mentors, by reading, by consuming content and and developing
More confidence.
Um
But
Why is imposter syndrome d become such a popular phrase?
Uh and is there a way
to actually overcome it? Or are we always gonna kinda feel like impostors if we're constantly growing because
Yes. There's a new thing that next year that I've never done that I'm gonna try to do that I'm an imposter'cause I've never done. So I'm gonna feel a sense of
Oh well, I've never done this, so here we go. I'm growing as an individual, right? Definitely. So I think okay, to the the question about well, I don't know why it became i i it it's again it's a it's a catchy, it's a sticky.
It's a sticky um term.
to describe an i experience that's pretty
pretty universal. And so it it became it's funny because it's it's
To social psychologists it's like a thing that's we've talked about since the nineteen seventies.
Um not that I was talking much in the nineteen seventies, but but it you know, that it was coined in the nineteen seventies and it's so i in in
Academia is something we talk about.
But it really got sticky in the last like you know
I I do think that like I
the I talk about it in the TED Talk. I think that was part of it. I think there were some other books that came out that were talking about it.
And and it
It just captures the experience so well of feeling like an impostor in your own life, right?
But
The interesting thing is that
Isn't
Well, first the woman who coined the term Pauline Clantz, um, who was teaching at Oberlin at the time.
In the seventies. Yeah. That's correct. Yeah. Ohio. That's great. Exactly.
She well first of all she said
She says that
She
She wishes she wishes she had not called it a syndrome.
Because a syndrome a p implies that it's pathological.
And rare like it's unusual.
And it's actually so not unusual, right? Yeah. It's the the like
The different estimates. Like seventy five to eighty five percent of people feel imposter syndrome. Also, women do not experience it more than men. Men are just more less likely to openly talk about it. So when it's another which is a burden.
I think because they think they're the only ones feeling it. Yes, they feel alone. And then women get the burden of being like, Oh, you always feel like impostors.
Cuts both ways in bad ways.
But
You
I don't think many people stop feeling it if they keep on trying new challenges. So in my book, I interviewed Neil Gaiman.
Amazing.
Author of
You know?
many, many, many, many best sellers and and um you know
super award winner. And um
Anyway, Neil
uh really had bad and my part of why I interviewed Neil
He's a lovely human, but
He's one of the only men.
who talked openly about having imposter syndrome.
And so
I wanted to talk to him for that reason.
Um
Also he has a way with words, but he said that in the beginning when he first started writing and was successful
He kept being afraid that somebody was gonna come and tap him on the shoulder.
And and be like, um, are you Neil Gaiman? And he'd say, Yes, I am Say, Oh, sorry, you know, we made a mistake. Oh wow You know, we're taking all this back.
And
And then he he said he finally got to the point he'd written American Gods, which was like his big novel, he said. Like that was the big
Grand novel.
He said he thought
He'd finally conquered imposter syndrome.
And he spoke to one of his mentors and and said, I think I finally conquered this. And he said
Um you never he I finally conquered writing a novel. And he said, You never conquer writing a novel, you just conquer writing the novel that you're writing. And so so so next time so n you know, now a lot of his books have been turned into really wonderful television series. And he's a show runner. Right. And
That was a whole new thing for him. So he said it's just it just pops up.
You see it on your desk, you're like, oh, there's the imposter.
And he'll go away. And and so you you keep you experience it every time you start something new. It just goes away faster. You don't you don't
Get hung up on it.
Yeah. You don't become anxious about the impostor s the imposture feeling. Mm-hmm. And I think the more you're living your life and creating and and building
And if you can start to reflect on like look at all the times I was in a po feeling an apostro syndrome and look what I was able to create. Yeah. And the the results I got and the success or the impact that I had from making this thing or creating this thing.
I can do it again. Exactly. It's like looking backwards to see the results. Right. So you have the this transferable sense of agency. Yes.
Like self-efficacy.
Is
Spe
I mean the way it's defined in psychology is like it's it's your feel you know it's it's your belief that you're able to do this certain thing.
Agency is wider than that. And this feeling of being agentic. Like and I think that when you conquer imposter syndrome again and again.
Yeah, yeah.
that feeling does become transferable. Yes. Right. And and you you're like um
This is a totally new thing.
But like I've never been part of this rodeo, but I think I'm gonna be. Right, right, yeah, exactly. You just know, okay, I've done this before many times, I can do it again. And if not
I'll be okay. I'll be all right. I'll survive. Right, exactly.
I'm curious.
I'm a big believer that self doubt is the killer of dreams. I think when we doubt ourselves
We're not breathing correctly, we're shrinking, we're not taking any actions, we don't have the courage because we're just constantly in self-doubt.
Do you think
We can never have too much self belief.
Um
I mean
That's a tricky question. I
First, I I think what you call self doubt, I think of as personal powerlessness. And what happens is that it activates what we call the behavioral inhibition system.
So it sh it it.
leads us to, you know
be more pessimistic, to be more fearful, to think more narrowly, less creatively, to not take risks, to see people as predators, but it
Yeah.
It inhibits us in every way.
Even physically, like we can tolerate less pain.
When when the inhibition system is activated. Really?
Feeling personally powerful activates the behavioral approach system, which does all the opposite. So it's like instead of seeing a challenge as a threat, we see it as an opportunity. Instead of seeing other people as potential predators, we see them as potential allies and collaborators. You know, we feel optimistic instead of pessimistic.
Now you could you can get to the point of feeling uh too powerful and you know in that case
I think that
One of the things that that
Well we know that one of the things that happens is that people
They're they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives.
So they're not as good at perspective taking when they become real like when
And but this is a lot about social power. So when people have both social power and personal power, they're not as good at taking other people's perspectives because they're their feedback or their information or their ideas. Just understanding what other people are like so feeling. It's it's honestly it's really more about social power. As people gain social power.
They're less dependent on others and so th they're
When when you're when you have not much social power, when you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, you really need to be able to read other people's minds. Like you really need to understand what they're thinking.
Because
you're dependent on them. And as you gain more power, you're less dependent. And so you're more likely to stereotype people. You're more you're less likely to be able to take their perspective. You just kind of forget what it feels like to be where they are. And so I think that's
That's a problem. Yeah.
Um you know.
I think
You know, there's a lot of research on o overconfidence versus confidence and
Overconfidence is um

I don't even really fully understand like where it comes from. And I don't I I to me, I don't think it is overconfidence. I think it's a different thing altogether. It's like ego. Yes, or like arrogance. You know, it's
And overconfidence arrogance.
Is often
Coming from a place of feeling
Threatened and defensive. And it's a smoke screen for insecurity. Right. So yeah, I say it's a smoke screen for insecurity. And it's it's a
It's a way of
deflecting. It's a way of preventing people from challenging you.
Because
Because honestly they don't find you pleasant.
They don't challenge you because they don't like you, not because they believe you, right?
So you know, I always say confidence not arrogance. Confidence allows
allows room to be wrong. So you you you can you can hear people. When you're confident
self affirmed, you know who you are, you're able to hear feedback. You know, you don't feel like you have to ha steal the
The microphone all the time.
Yeah, confidence plus curiosity. It's like being willing to be Okay, yeah, I feel confident, but I also I'm I have a beginner's mind. Totally. And if you're confident and you you're excited about an idea, you should want that to be as good as it can be. And so, you know, if you're around people who are offering you good feedback.
Confidence allows you to hear the feedback, which I think is really interesting. Like so I love watching Shark Tank. Yeah, it's great.
I love reading the body language. I miss Jonah my son and I used to watch this like when he was younger. He loves reading the body language and guessing who's gonna do well.
And um and I know you've talked to people about like the body language of lying and you know, it is so fascinating. I I think like this body language of arrogance is
is really body language is also
nonverbal um vocal cues. Like a certain way of speaking and but
It's like
it's when they don't buy what they're selling. If you don't buy what you're selling, nobody's gonna buy what you're selling. You know, if you don't believe your story, nobody's gonna believe your story.
Not at least in the long run. How do you learn to buy what you're selling?
Well how do I how do I sell something that I I don't believe in? I say don't sell it. You shouldn't be doing it. That's the idea. I mean you can try, but I don't think you should. You you need to check in with yourself about that. Like I you know the whole like y it for okay.
There are different reasons why we don't buy what we're selling.
You could not buy what you're selling because
Um
you're actually self doubt you doubt your ability to sell anything. Okay. Right? And that's different. Than the the product or the vision. Right. Or you you're it's just not interesting to you. It's not something that you would use.
But it's not that you think there's anything wrong with it.
Th so there are number of reasons that you you can fix, right? You can you can learn to understand, well, this product, you know, really
Is helpful and valuable.
to these other people. And I I need to understand their perspective.
Right. That's that that makes you a more effective
you know, salesperson. Um
But
There are also reasons
that should lead you to go, I shouldn't be selling it. Right. So you need to figure out like is it because I don't
I don't relate to it or I don't believe in myself, or is it because there's something wrong with this thing? Who are the people on Shark Tank that you see after their one or two minute pitch where you're like
They're gonna get someone interested.
You know, if the numbers line up and everything works out just based on their body language, their belief
Yeah.
What do they have in common where you're like
Yes, I would invest in them.
There is
Well
Or I like them, you know. Okay, there the there are three kind of characteristics. The one the first is that they believe they just you feel that they believe their story. That they just so deeply buy what they're selling. They really care about this. Yes.
And it's with their body language. Sometimes they say it
And I'm not sure that helps.
When they like say like the i I mean and I I don't think they're necessarily lying when they say it. Saying it isn't it like it's you can just feel it. They convey it with their body language. Their energy, their postural feedback, everything. Right. There there's also um
They're confident and not arrogant.
Mm-hmm. And so they are open to feedback.
They're not like this is the greatest thing in the world. Completely. Like the the arrogance is just it it just k it kills the it kills the whole
the all the energy. No why would the a shark want to invest
It's you're clearly not open to feedback. If you think you have all the answers and if you start conveying that right away.
You're out. Yeah, why you're here in the first place. Right. So it's you have to buy what you're selling and convey that. You you have to um
You have to be confident, not arrogant. And
And that is like I said, you you show your confidence through your openness, your willingness to be open. It's not insecurity, it's not like oh I mean if you don't if you don't know the numbers.
You're out. You do need to know the numbers. You need to know s certain things. But you can't know everything. That's why you're there. Totally. And the last thing is that
There
Their um their verbal and nonverbal language is synchronized. So what they're conveying with their words, the feelings they're conveying with their words match
the feelings they're conveying with their body language. And
You know, if you see somebody like
Trying to you know, demonstrate like
deep care in an issue.
But
Their body language just doesn't line up with it. They're crossing their arms and turns on the side or whatever, yeah. Yeah, and or or um or if they're trying to convey
Um
I don't know. Like the the you know, confidence but they're showing fear. When we when we are, you know, fulf and just, you know, in in it.
That
stuff becomes synchronized. We're not scripting our body language. We're bad at scripting our body language.
We're best at scripting our words, second best at scripting our facial.
Expressions.
Yeah.
But below the neck.
We forget about it all.
I you know, like people don't know what to do with their hands, for example. There's like I don't know what there used to there was a thirty rock episode about this. Yes, about not knowing what to do. I can't remember I just remember there were so many
Yeah, there's a whole episode about not being able not knowing what to do with your hands. But
People and people really don't pay attention to what they're doing with their feet.
and their legs. Like this I don't know. How important is body language with the feet and the hands when building trust and confidence with others. It's funny, have have you ever had Joe Navarro on? No. Do you know who he is? Former FBI agent. He I want to have him on yes. You should. He's great. He's such a character. I love Joe. He's a great guy also.
But he uh he has uh many body language books, but one of them is called What Everybody Is Saying. Which I love. It's clever. And
Yeah, he
really gets into the nitty gritty. But he says one of the things as an FBI
agent. I think he did like counterintelligence was um
Was
to pay attention to people's feet.
Like so.
If they
If you're questioning and I'm not saying that this is
And I I I don't know what the what the empirical evidence is on that.
But that like if somebody
looks like if their feet are turned away from you
And they like they want to run.
He's paying attention to that. So he like if they're but it's more if their feet are turned toward you.
And
they don't seem afraid, he's more likely to believe them.
Right. Like if they if they they've got that's the asynchrony. Right exactly. And their feet are to So yeah, he thinks the feet are really important. More than the hands?
Um
Well only because
Only because people are so unaware of what they're doing with their feet. So it's not that the necessary hands you can put'em in your pocket. Yeah, exactly. They're just not thinking at all that my feet are gonna give me away.
Which is kind of interesting.
But yeah, he but also I think
There's really
A lot of the
Evidence that that
you know, that fee you being grounded is is really important to how you feel, right? So like
you know, walking around if you're speaking or something on this is I I'm kind of switching a bit here, but
Thing.
can really help you feel better. You know, not
Like
Sometimes
People will stand with their ankles crossed.
Or
um not totally balanced. Like make sure that your feet you feel that you're grounded.
And you feel that string, right? I have a friend uh named Rachel Cossar, who used to be a professional ballet dancer.
And a rhythmic gymnast and she does body language training now.
And she's really into the that feeling of being grounded and how much that helps you. Like yes, but you're connected to the ceiling, but you're also safe. You're you're connected to the floor. Right. Like you're not gonna fall through it.
There's no trapdoor.
You know, uh allow yourself to find energy in that feeling grounded. It's fascinating how
How many psychologists talk about body language?
the power of body language to him just improve the quality of your life. I know Jordan Peterson, I think in his book, Twelve Rules for Life, I think one of the first rules is
Sit up straight. Yeah, put your back straight. I've heard that. Put your back up straight. It's like the rule of the life. That's the whole just Put your shoulders back. Dramature, right. Right? It's just like the funny thing about that.
Yeah. I think that like the the the the the funny thing about sit up straight is that you know a lot of us heard it as kids.
From grandparents. But also I think part of it was because we were told to do it out of to show respect to others. And
And the thing is, it's actually more about showing respect to yourself. Like be suffering, you like that one. It's good.
Sit'em straight to respect yourself.
And if you respect yourself.
you're more likely to be able to respect others.
You know, it's it's um you have to feel good about yourself.
To be able to treat
others with sort of generosity respect. So I think if we tell kids
Well
You know, if you sit up straight.
you know, you're gonna feel better about yourself. They're more likely to be open to that. You're gonna feel more confident, you're gonna love yourself more, you're gonna feel happier.
You're gonna have more to offer others as well. Right.
When you respect yourself, like you said, you're gonna have more generosity, hopefully.
Right.
You're being rude if you don't sit up straight. You know, kids are like
Well, then I'm just gonna be rude. So funny because, you know, the
The
H
parents story of make your bed in the morning, you know, was something that I I never did.
Until I actually went to uh
a boarding school that was kind of similar. They th they graded you every morning.
in the dorm. Oh to make the better. Six thirty. It wasn't military, but it was like just a strict kind of boarding school with rules and you know dress code and all that stuff.
And I remember just like
After that, when I went to college, I was like
I'm just gonna you know.
Wake up and let the bed be messy.
Yeah. And then when I got to I think it was like in my late twenties, I was like
I just don't feel good when I come back and look at a messy space. Let me try this out. Let me just start making my bed every morning and just
Spending two minutes, even though it's kind of a hassle, like let me do this.
So I can come back and just feel a peace in my my resting space. Yeah. Not messy. Yeah.
And I'm like, I wish I would have wrote the book Make Your Bed because that came out like five years later and became like this massive speech and phenomenon and I was like
I know. When our moms told us growing up, you know, for me I was like, This has gotta be a routine. Every time
I don't make the bet, I feel like
I have a sloppier day.
Yeah. I feel less productive, I feel less proud because I
Disrespected my
Sleeping space. Yes. Those little routines like that really help. I mean I mean that's the whole the whole thing about being sort of neat.
is is that that it's self respecting. Right. And I mean it also I know there's yes, it clears your mind, right, to not have to worry about clutter. But I think the self respect piece is a big part of it.
Although for me I was like a I was like
Uh-huh.
an O C D bedmaker as a kid. It wasn't good. Like people could s s if somebody sat on it, I'd be like, Yeah, it was weird. I had you know, a lot of kids
Have a
Can go through O C D periods and not have it as an adult, but I definitely had some weird You still have it as an adult. You can hug people and you can be messy. Sadly I don't. Yeah. Now you're messy bad, yeah. But Yeah. No it's funny because to me
You know
Being a grown up is about having freedom, you know. I want to do what I wanna do now. And my son like called me the other day, it's like ten o'clock and he's like
Are you still in bed? And he's I'm like
Yep, and he's like, Why? And I'm like,'Cause I'm a grown up and I'm a one. Exactly. So funny. Yeah, I love that. I mean
It's more of like
Just what are the routines that gonna help you be optimized for that day and that season of life?

months where I'm like okay I'm just gonna sleep in and I'm not gonna do what I wanna you know what I know I could do to be optimal performance.
That's the season why I need right now, mass recovery season.
Yeah.
So it's it's being okay with that as well, not being so militant like every moment.
Should I think that's
Not helpful either.
Yeah.
You're too obsessed to sure. I absolutely gotta hit every routine all the time and every minute. Yeah. Absolutely. Wake up in the same you know, that's a lot.
They have to be your routines that work for you. Yes. I was t talking to a
A friend of mine who was a
An Olymp an Olympic skier.
And national.
national champion in in women's downhill. No, but her name is Alex Bubbles and she's a fascinating person because she also
She
had a second wave of
Fame.
Um
I mean so she was pre
Downhill skiing getting a lot of attention, right? So that was like ninety eight to two thousand two was like her era. Uh huh. Um
Her maiden name was Schaefer.
So
Anyway, but her married name is Alex Wobbles.
She became
Famous.
Again about
five years ago because she
She's now an emergency room nurse.
And she was working at a hospital in Utah.
The U University of Utah.
And
Mm
There was a
There was a an ax a car accident, there was a patient, she specialized in burn victims.
He was badly burned, he was unconscious.
And um a police officer wanted a blood sample from him to see if he was
He had alcohol in his system.
Um
By the way it turned out
He did not and it was the other person was drunk. But
Really not the point. The point was that
You cannot take a blood sample unless you have
Um
A uh a warrant?
Exactly.
Or verbal permission. And he he was unconscious. So he couldn't give verbal per permission and they did not have
the authority to do it.
And she
was defending this man and and um
Mm.
Yeah.
Nobody else really was. I mean they they weren't
They were
They were kind of being bystanders, and she was doing exactly by the books what she was supposed to be doing. Her voice is shaking.
She's clearly really
Scared and not getting support. Yeah, sorry, as well in video.
And this police officer
Eventually, um he's just
Th this is this is not a statement about police officers. This is just an agitated guy. And who was just like, I'm gonna get this blood sample. Right. He throws her against the wall and handcuffs her and throws her into his cruiser and arrests her.
And she's screaming, it's like 90 degrees outside the window. It's it's a it's a really upsetting scene.
Um
And she absolutely did the right thing. So she became
You know, known as
Yeah, people.
As a super brave person and who which she is. And I
knew I wanted to interview her for my next book.
And
But I didn't know her.
I'm giving it a talk at the Association of Critical Care Nurses.
It's like 10,000 people. It was in it happened to be in Boston. And I did, I think, the longest book signing line of my life.
Um nurses really really
to this material.
I think it's an anime, it's been on there five times.
Power stuff going on in healthcare. It's it's tough. And
They're exhausted and anyways I did the signing line and there's one and I I was really tired. I I loved signing lines. I love talking to people, but I was like exhausted from here. It was it was a few hours and I I um there was one last person and and she was with a man and the man walks over
And as she approaches I see
Who it is. And he says, um
I don't know if you know who this is and I just like I started. She's crying. Like I knew exactly who it was. We embraced I mean we just like
held on to each other and she's like
You mean so much to me. Like you've helped your work has helped me so much and I'm like
I am such
You know, I'm such a fan of y of you.
And I wanted to reach out to you anyway, it was Alex Bubbles.
I did not know at the time that she is
She was a an incredibly good skier, you know, and national champion many times. And I I love skiing.
Anyway, what's interesting is that she's a physically brave and socially brave person. Just ski like that.
Also, she's like the nicest person on earth. Like she gave us she would give us ski lessons and be like, Well, what do you want to achieve today? Like just for fun.
You know, and
Like my husband wanted to get be able to get his hips on the ground, you know, and she's like, We're gonna make that happen. And by the end of the day, she and but she like she cheers for you know, she's cheering for you. She's a great person.
But I said what is
Like what are the similarities?
Um
you know, physic like you know, going down the mountain, you know, seventy miles per hour.
And being brave in that situation. And she said for her it's about like
Following her own
kind of rule book. She said the best skiers are not skiers who
who have like a one size like take a one size fits all approach. Like, you know, um
Yeah, Lindsey Vaughn.
You know, she
But she likes fashion, she likes style.
And people were really critical of that. And and and it's like she's gotta be able to be who she is to be the best at what she does. Like why are you bothered that she likes to wear makeup and and you know
have nice clothing. Why why does that bother people? The more she was able to be who she was, the better skier she was. And Alex said it was the same for her. The more she was able to do it her way.
And
And she had a coach who recognized that, like she could not
She needed an off day before
Before um
Races.
And he
He was like, Okay, I'm not gonna force you to write like
I realize that for you, you're gonna perform better if you can do it that way. The bravery thing the there is there's this
This she said for me in that moment.
I knew that like I could not live with myself if I did not like this was just the right thing to do. And and I had no qu she said
There was no question that I was gonna do this. And and she said, I was following my rule book. She said to me that's what's important. I knew that that justice was important. Justice in this sense.
Of you know, protecting this man's
You know, sort of
Freedom.
Mm he's right.
She said I um
I I just knew that and I knew when I was skiing that I had to do it my way.
And that allowed me to be, you know, brave and perform at my best.
So I think that that's really important. You gotta figure out like what are your again, it's back to like what are your values? Like and how can you be true to them.
But she's just
Yeah, she's pretty cool.
Wonderful.
I feel like I could talk to you for another few hours. But I wanna I wanna bring us home here. And I'm gonna have you back on when the book comes out. Good and have you on for another
Long session.
Well we're both recovered from surgery and

Sure.
But I feel like I actually the pain has been going away.
Throughout this,
Earlier in the day the pain was heightening, but with you I feel like I'm just so excited about learning this.
That this this information's been so powerful. I've got so many notes here. Oh good. Uh so I'm just excited to go back through all this stuff.
Uh this is a
Before I ask the final couple of questions, again I wanna thank me for being here. This is really inspiring. Heard so many great things about you from all mutual friends over the years. I'm glad we were gonna make this work.
How can we before I ask the final questions, how can we be of support to you right now? What's the what's the thing that we could do to
Yeah. Is there somewhere we can go on your w social media are you uh most active on, your website, can we opt in for your newsletter, can we get your books, is there speaking to what you're doing, what can we do? Follow me on social media. I'm on um LinkedIn for sure. Um Is that your main point? It's funny, I have the most followers on LinkedIn.
And I d I don't post that often because I you know, I wanna post like really good like high sort of
longer high quality content on there.
Um Twitter, Instagram, you know keep up with me on social media. Amy Cody everywhere, right? And um yeah. Uh and you know, be I like for me it's just like sort of
P
Brave.
That that would make me really happy. And it's okay if you say like
You know um
Uh.
You tag me when you do it. Like I wanna I wanna see it happening. But you know, when you see, for example, somebody being like bullied on social media.
The way to handle that is not to attack the person attacking them. It's say something nice about them in the comments. Like support them. It could be totally unrelated. Just say, you know, say you see something
Some somebody being, you know, trolled or whatever and and there's a pylon.
Uh, because that that looks like the norm. So more and more people are doing it. Change the norm by being nice. Say, Hey
Um so and so. You know, I really like that thing you shark.
And this is how it helped me.
And you'll you'll it's amazing what you'll see is more and more people will start being positive. That's a way of being brave. Like be the one to s make the first positive comment.
To turn things around. I love that. That would be that would make me feel supportive. Okay, cool.
Um
Yeah, so if you're on Instagram
Make sure to share this uh and tag Amy.
Again, Amy Patty over on Instagram, Tagger, uh that you're watching this or listening to this over on YouTube, leave a comment below.
Something positive about this.
You enjoy the most about this.
over on YouTube as well.
Um okay, there's a question.
But ask everyone at the end. It's called the
Three truths question.
Okay. So it's a hypothetical
Question.
Imagine many years away it's your last day on S
You've
Live as long as you want to live.
And you accomplish all the dreams and you have the life you want.
Uh but for whatever reason, everything you've ever created, your written word, this video, content.
has to go somewhere else.
It's not on this earth anymore. Okay. So it goes when you go.
All right.
Hypothetical.
And the only thing you have to leave behind are three truths.
three lessons that you've learned that you would share with the world.
What would you say would be those three truths for you?
Yes. Off the cuff.
Oh my gosh, it's really hard.
Um
The whole hater's gonna hate
uh philosophy like the the idea that people are just there are just bad people and
And
People are just gonna be bad.
Don't buy into that. It's just keep trying.
That the the the only thing that makes that absolutely true true is if we believe it's absolutely true.
You know, so keep trying to be
To to be a better person, to model better behavior, to be optimistic about people, to to to to have grace. Yes.
That's the I think that's the most important one. Okay, that's number one. Um the second is you know
Um
Yeah, I'm gonna quote my Angelo.
Stand up straight and realize who you are that you tower over your circumstances.
So uh I th that is again my Angelou, not me, but I love that what it captures, which is
Carry yourself with a sense of pride and
And you know, and
And um and self respect.
and you will become more self respecting.
And you will treat others
Better. Yes.
Uh that's the second.
Um
The third
I think is
Like we just leave room for people to um to be weird.
Like, you know what? Let people let their freak flags fly. Like don't put people in a box. Let people be different. Like appreciate it.
Just just stop judging. Like do your thing, let your freak flag fly and let other people do the same thing. Like if they're being if they're not hurting other people.
You know, I just I like give people space to be themselves. Absolutely.
That's it.
Powerful.
I love those trees.
Um, before I ask the final question, Amy, I wanna acknowledge you for
All that you've done, all the research, all the work, all the giving back to serve people and helping them
gain confidence. Thank you. And and improve the quality of their life.
That's what my mission is with the School of Greatness, is to help people
Improve the quality of their life.
And it's to bring people on like yourself that I've been inspired by for a long time.
To teach what you know you have this information, this knowledge.
From deep research, practical experience.
And teaching it to so many people that
This audience could really
uh use so I'm grateful for your consistent dedication. I'm grateful for you
uh being weird and starting to express that more on social media in the world and accepting
That you know, socially
by posting the stuff that is unique to you, the things that you love. And
And reminding us that we need to continue to be unique to ourselves as well.
And be willing to share that.
And uh acknowledge you for
the generosity you have with so many people. Again, I have so many mutual friends that say you're an incredible
Give her incredible kind human being. Thank you.
So I really acknowledge you for the impact you've made on my friends.
Thanks.
the person you've become. So I hope uh hopefully we can be friends after this and have you back on many times and uh
I want to see you continue to
Uh to spread this message far and wide. Thank you so much. And of course,
Final question is what's your definition of greatness?
I think greatness is
it it is a it's it I think people might think of it as sort of uh about
being the most the sort of the best, the most competent.
I think it's a it's a combination of being, yes, your most sort of effective self, but also your most generous self. So greatness has to combine those two qualities, right? It's it's about
It's about being both generous.
And and you know, capable.
My friend, I hope you're enjoying this episode right now, because we are on a mission to impact 100 million lives every single week. And every follow here on this podcast helps us reach more people.
Make sure to hit the follow at the top of this show's page right now. It's the single biggest thing that you can do to support the show and the impact of us reaching you every single time we have new episodes. I appreciate you.
And I can't wait to see you in the next episode.
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad-free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our greatness.
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That you are loved.
You are worthy.
And you matter. And now it's time to go out there and do
Something.
Great.