Branding truths and tariff myths, with Autodesk’s Dara Treseder & Flexport’s Ryan Petersen

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. А бран і сам в промезис ви ми. And the experiences would deliver.

1:39 I think Cracker Barrel learned hey this is too core, we can't touch this. I give Bravery and courage for saying hey We messed up this, but they've gotta evolve. As a brand, when you're using AI, you want to be clear with your customers, and with J Crew.

1:56 Because they weren't transparent, they kinda got called out. So trust was lost. Trust is earned in drops, but it's lost in buckets. That's Dara Treseder, Chief Marketing Officer of Autodesk, recorded live at the Masters of Scale summit in San Francisco on October 8th.

2:21 In today's episode, we've combined two fast-paced segments from the summit. First, I talked with Dara about the highest profile branding topics of 2025, getting her unvarnished read on Sydney Sweeney, Cracker Barrel, Taylor Swift, and more. Then in the second half of the episode, I talk with Flexport CEO Ryan Peterson about the five biggest myths around global trade and tariffs. Dara and Ryan are both uncommonly candid, including Ryan's advice about avoiding jail and what he calls quote dumb competition. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

2:58 Please welcome the chief marketing officer of Autodesk, Dara Treseder. We're gonna do um this chat in two parts. We're gonna kinda play two different games. Okay, first I'm gonna take you through four topics in marketing. and branding right now. And then we're literally going to pay play a fast paced game called Uh buzzword bingo. Uh uh. Okay. All right. So are you ready? Don't get me in trouble, Bob. I'll try. I'll try.

3:36 So we're we have some visuals for these for this first four, okay? So um First up Sydney Sweeney's American Eagle Ad. I literally said don't get me in trouble, Bob.

3:49 So this ad sparked all kinds of Uh controversy and discussion about You know, genes versus genes. You and I talked before about what is healthy tension and toxic tension. So With this. Healthy tension? Toxic tension? What what does the re reaction mean about where we are?

4:09 Well, first of all we are here at masses of scale with some of the biggest leaders in the world and we're talking about American Eagle. I know we're not shopping. So I think they definitely check the tension box. Uh-huh. Was it healthy? Was it toxic? Let's talk about it. Let's dissect it. Healthy tension is tension that moves the brand and the business forward. Great work must always have tension. If it doesn't have tension, it's not great, and it's not causing conversation. Healthy tension when it moves the brand and business forward, it goes beyond awareness. to drive actual acquisition and business result.

4:44 Sometimes you can have awareness and instead of acquisition, you end up with alienation. So that is where instead of it being healthy, it kind of goes into the toxic. um space. I think that They checked the box on tension, they raised awareness. But was it healthy there was a lot of alienation. You know, it doesn't you don't need a focus group. To know that in this very polarized world that we are living in, when you use the word genes, and by genes I mean G E N E S.

5:13 And then you show only one demographic, they're gonna be people with thoughts. Right, and they're gonna be there's gonna be a lot of energy around that. You don't need to do a focus group but spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on research to get to that point. Now, so there were some people that felt alienated, did it Did the awareness overall drive acquisition? We don't know yet. Um, I think a good example of a brand that jumped into the conversation and drove awareness and acquisition this gap. Right, they kinda had a counter ad with Cat's eye and that drove a lot of acquisition and gap sales on TikTok are through the roof.

5:50 So that's an example of healthy tension. Of using the tension. Of using the tension in a healthy way to drive not just awareness, but acquisition. I think gone are the days where all publicity is good publicity. And some publicity we just don't need, you know? All right, let's try let's try let's go to uh number two. Uh Yeah. So I I know I'm making it difficult for you here, huh?

6:18 All right, let me let me we're gonna have fun. Let me frame it this way. Let me frame it this way, right? Like When Uh you know When Cracker Barrel fans responded to the removal of This old

6:34 timer from the from the logo, right? They sort of they walked it back. And we've seen other brands backtrack like like uh Uh H B L Walking Back Max. Right. So Are there situations do you know in the situations where it's like

6:51 This is a cultural conversation that I'm losing. I can't drive this conversation. versus like I just made a mistake. First of all, brands have a lot of power. Cause when we have brands where we're having commentary uh from everybody from the president to your hairdresser, you know you've touched a nerve.

7:09 Uh and and what I will say is as a brand, Cracker Barrel had been experiencing s uh declining sales, right? That's why they said, what can we do to ignite Or spark the next wave of growth for the business. So we have to give them kudos for saying, hey. We can't just keep going down the path we're going. We need to change something. Now when you're evolving a brand, because you have to either adapt or you die as a brand. You have to evolve. So they got Check we need to evolve. Now there are gonna be there's the heart of the brand or the soul of the brand. Because what is a brand at the end of the day?

7:43 A brand is the sum of the promises we make. And the experiences would deliver. That is what it is. It is the sum of the promises we make and the experiences we deliver. The soul at the heart of the brand is at the core of that. For Crack A Barrel, it's around that southern hospitality and comfort. Okay, that is a non negotiable.

8:04 I think with the logo change, I mean y'all can see the second logo. It's not exactly screaming. Southern hospitality. It could be Panera bread, you know what I mean? Like And so if you are someone who you're immediately you see this, you go to This is changing southern hospitality and comfort. So all of a sudden you start to question what is this brand going to deliver? And so it affects the trust.

8:33 Uh with the with the customer because you're you're you're evolving something that is too core. So I think Cracker Barrel learned, hey, this is too core. We can't Touch this. Let's look at other things that we can evolve. So I'm gonna give them kudos for actually saying, Hey, we listened. And we're gonna not touch the heart or the soul of the brand. We will evolve something else. I think I don't actually think it's capitulation, I think it's smart. I think it's good stewardship of the brand. We're not in a perfect world. We're all gonna make mistakes. I give

9:05 Bravery and courage for saying, Hey We messed up this, we're gonna go back. All right. But they've gotta evolve. So we're g all gonna be watching. They gotta make a choice, right? They gotta make a different choice. All right, let's uh let's go to the uh the the next one. J Cruise AI generated ad. So this this also sparked a lot of uh discussion. I know you're bullish about AI and Autodesk's Flow Studio. AI is used by a lot of creatives in the in the ad marketing community. How should folks think about using AI in their brands and their messages? You know, and what what are the risks, where are the opportunities? How do you think that's the same thing? So at Autodesk, our software is used to like design and make anything, right? Whether it's products you use and love, movies and games uh we all enjoy, or it is used in to make buildings we live and work in. Now

9:54 We are bullish on AI, but we are also team human. We are AI in service of humanity and not the other way around. And I think that's really important. So I think brands get it right when you are clear about what AI is and what it is not. AI can help all of us, it lifts the floor, but it's actually human ingenuity that is gonna raise the ceiling. So there is still a space for humans in this AI narrative. Now Where J Crew I think got it wrong, was they weren't transparent about what AI was driving. And there is fear around AI. And it's not just fear for the sake of fear, but it's fear about around being manipulated or being disenfranchised. So as a brand, when you're using AI, you want to be clear with your customers and be transparent so that they understand you're not trying to manipulate them, you're just being clear, and you're also not trying to disenfranchise them. And with J. Crew,

10:48 Because they weren't transparent, they kinda got called out. And they had to go back and edit the captions to show it was generated by AI. So trust was lost. Right, trust is earned in drops, but it's lost in buckets. So that transparency uh I think is important. And you know, for example, at Autodesk with Flow Studio, we are making sure we are clear that our AI is here to help creators, but creators are in control. It's like riding a tandem bike. The creator is deciding what direction we're gonna go, how fast we're gonna go. AI is simply helping providing that additional horsepower by automating some tedious tasks like scene integration. All right. Let's uh we have we have we're doing one

11:29 One more and then we go to the the game. This is already hard, so I'm wondering what the I know I know. All right, so so this this is an image of the UK streetwear designer Tega Uh Acinola is part of Autodesk's Let There Be Anything campaign. Partnerships are so important for brands right now. How do brands associate and get the most authentic partnerships with creators, celebrity, it's like ha how do you how do we think about making sure you get the right choice so you get the right uh roamy, the right return on marketing index. Yeah, show me the room. Everything has to start with business impact.

12:04 You know, you first of all you have to figure out how is this going to advance my brand objective and ultimately drive the results that I'm going for. So there are three key things you look at. First of all, is this an ad? It has to be an add and a build. It should not be a detraction. And honestly, if it's gonna be neutral, don't even do it. Do something else with your resources. So that ad and that build is really important. The second thing is you need to be pushing not just for reach, but also resonance. Because reach does not equal resonance, and you cannot compromise resonance for reach. Because if you're not getting both resonance and reach, you're ultimately not reaching that new target audience and you're not expanding uh your demographic to get the needed business results. I think the third thing is you have to make sure that whatever partnership you're doing, it fits into the bigger picture and is a force multiplier, not a force divider. So that's the third thing you need to look at. I think when you check those three boxes, whether you're working with the creator or it's a brand partnership, that's how you get to Rome. And if you're thinking, what should the math be? I like to use a one to three ratio. So if I'm spending a dollar, I want to make sure that I'm making s at least three dollars. If I'm not gonna make three dollars, there might be a better investment for those resources.

13:17 All right. Ready for the game? I'm scared. All right, so so these are buzzwords. I'm gonna ask you. Uh Overhyped or underhyed. Okay, you can give me a quick explanation if you want. We'll see how many we can get through in three minutes. Can you put three minutes on the clock?

13:34 There should be a clock up there. All right. Ready? All right. All right. Number one. Return to office mandates. appropriately hyped. Appropriately hyped.

13:45 Yeah. Good or bad. All right. It's good. It's good. I think we we like to spend time in person. There is a space for in-person intentional gatherings and experiences. TikTok's algorithm. As a marketer, I think it's underhyped because you can reach a lot of people and drive a lot of results. As a mom, it is overhyped. Those kids need to get off TikTok, go outside, drink water, touch the grass. Yeah.

14:12 All right. Uh Apple's brand power. Underhyped. Underhead yes, many tech brands right now, there is no trust. Apple's one of the few brands that people how many people y'all use an iPhone? Who's using an iPhone? Look at that. Look. A sea of Apple people. All right. Uh Tilly Norwood and the Velvet Sundown. You guys know them? They're they're AI artists. They're overhyped. I'm team human, okay. So overhyped. Human ingenuity is still going to be needed. I don't think we're ever gonna get to a world where it's just AI taking over. I mean I don't wanna live in that world.

14:45 Uh uh. She and Tamu. Overhyped, I'm a sustainability queen. All right. Uh next year's World Cup in North America. Under hype! Yay, USA, I'm excited.

14:57 World Cup LA 28 AutoDask where the official designer make platforms, I do have to say that. Alright, here we go. Uh Taylor Swift's power. So I think appropriately hype. Everybody's talking about Taylor Swift. Look, I love my man too, and if if anyone was gonna listen to my music, nobody does. I would also be writing an ode to him. So look, appropriately hype. So you who is under hype is tree paint, her publicist. Give it up for tree pain. And also, Travis Kelsey's also underhyped. We like a man who supports his powerful, ambitious.

15:34 I know. All right, uh Ryan Reynolds business exploits. He's under hype. That man does everything from whiskey to deadpool. Under hype. I also work with him. Uh Leboo Boo Love. Overhype, too many in my house. I'm like, what if happened? I'm teaching my children about hoarding. We can't hoard la boo boos.

15:56 Uh Meta's AR glasses. I think today it might be overhyped, but I think tomorrow it's gonna be underhype. They're still figuring out the use cases, but I'm bullish on bullish on it. All right, uh Netflix's dominance. Under hype, K-pop demon hunters have taken over my We're going up like it's All right, we're we're almost at the end of our time. Uh uh late night TV hosts. Underhy.

16:23 God bless the late night TV hosts. All right. I think that's uh last one, pumpkin spice. Underhype, get your pumpkin spice while you can. Starbucks, let us have it all the time. I have to thank Dara for being willing to play the buzzword game and to take on some of the trickiest topics in marketing. Dara makes it all sound fun and shares important insights about positioning any business or brand. Coming up next, we're gonna switch topics to global trade and tariffs. The mood of candor will persist. Courtesy of Flexport C.

17:04 CEO Ryan Peterson, that's after the break. Stay with us. The Wired Newsroom is known for award-winning reporting on how technology shapes our world. On Wire's Uncanny Valley, we take that curiosity even further. Each week, journalists from Wired break down the biggest stories in tech while speaking directly with the people building, challenging, and reshaping the future.

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18:24 Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There can be two types of companies. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi.

18:39 And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

19:07 Before the break, we heard Autodesk's Dark Treseder, live at the Masters of Scale Summit, break down the biggest marketing and branding lessons of the year. Now we switch gears to Flexport CEO Ryan Peterson, also recorded live, who assesses five major myths about global trade and tariffs. Let's dive back in. So Ryan, I have created um five myths for us. These are these are things that are based on sort of what I'm hearing from different folks in the business community. I'm gonna go through them. I'd love your your uh your perspective on them. Are you ready? I'm ready. So myth number one is don't don't act on tariff announcements too quickly. Policy could shift again. I remember you telling me about uh uh customs border uh protection, finding out about changes like on Truth Social. Like things just keep changing. We have a Supreme Court case. That's coming down the pipeline. And it may actually all the tariffs might just get refunded.

20:05 And we'll find that out in the next couple of months. And then by the way, um for sure the administration will claim that as a victory because the stock market's gonna go way up. We did it. We did it again. But like when you're talking to clients, do they like Yeah, we gotta do things. We don't have to do things. Sometimes the best thing is to do nothing. That that might s you might say that's actually an action. It could be a radical action to say, hey, we're gonna stay calm. Um some changes in supply chain take many years to play out.

20:31 Uh like if you're gonna move your production to a new country, we've seen this where people said, Oh, okay, China's doesn't work, we're gonna set up production in India. And then well it turns out the tariffs on India are just as high as on China right now. So it is it's very difficult to make long term decisions in uh Policy environment that changes so quickly. Are they looking over their shoulder at each other and saying, like, what's that one doing? Should I be doing that? What like what can I do differently? Yeah, there's a lot of that. It's been very interesting. So we're a customs broker as we help companies

20:59 figure out what duties they owe and pay them. And it's a really complex world, as you can imagine. There's every variety of product out there. And I'm used to being the expert when I talk to my customers. But now you know, the CEOs they have to know their product.

21:14 At a level that I probably I don't know every single product and every rule and then I'm just like Smile and nod like yeah, yeah, it's been really tough for us to be At that forefront. Trying to monitor what's happening, you know, and and interpret it for our customers and figure out uh give them advice what decisions should you make. Let's move to myth number two.

21:34 Uh the government has a plan, don't worry, they they know what they're doing, everything's gonna turn out great. It's Difficult to say. Dave. plan. I don't know if it's a good plan. The reality is there's actually some pretty good reasons. For

21:47 us to be concerned about the lack of industrial production in the United States and uh Yeah. And Hey, we got this problem, we gotta do something. They're gonna do something. Uh huh.

22:02 It doesn't always mean they're gonna do the right thing or like you know, yes, tariffs may actually be an effective way to stimulate manufacturing. The way they've been done so far, actually I've met more companies that are remov like shifting production offshore as a result of the tariffs because you have to pay duties on the components that are coming in and on the machinery that you use These sort of unintended consequences. Second order impact, maybe. Typical economies aren't meant to be centrally planned. All right, let's move to number three. Myth number three. China's in a better position to adapt to trade volatility than the US. And I'll have to say that I I've heard this exactly the opposite way, too. I almost wrote this the other way. That the US is in a better position to adapt to trade volatility than China is.

22:44 It w which is actually very um illustrative that you could have written it both ways. Uh and it does illustrate yeah You know, the trade is a positive sum scenario. Both parties do trade because they're both made better off by doing it, and this idea that you can win a trade war is sort of Inherently is wrong. I mean you you you win a trade war by just not having one and doing trade and both parties you know. So I I it is that said, the United States does depend on global trade less than China does. Um we we produce we're self sufficient in food and energy and they're not.

23:18 Uh and that's a big deal. They import um I think eighty percent of their energy. The import a lot of food from around the world. Um so If you're talking about like subsistence level, who's gonna survive in a Terrible situation. Like we do depend less on trade, but I'm not sure.

23:33 Um that said, yeah, I think both parties definitely both parties are gonna lose You have a lot of communication, as you say, with with CEOs here. Is there communication or information that you're getting from Contact in China about how the trade war is impacting things there. That Maybe we're not seeing as much.

23:52 The thing that we're seeing actually and it's not just China related, you see this on a global basis, is when you when you jack up duty rates the way we have You just create this huge incentive for fraud. For fraud. Yeah, for cheating. And It's quite simple.

24:06 What what's happening and it's happening in mass. We've Actually um spending a lot of time in D C trying to help them understand how this happens. The United States is the only country in the world, the only major country in the world that allows foreign companies to import goods. Into the country. without any kind of legal entity, physical presence, employees, bank account, nothing. You just has a foreign company s fill out this form and you just get approved and you can start importing.

24:27 From overseas. Um and Well then you just don't You just missed declare, you say the products are worth ten thousand when they're worth one hundred thousand, you just reduce your duty rate by ninety percent. And it's very difficult for customers, we don't have enforcement agents in other countries. for trade compliance. We do for terrorism, for drugs, but not for

24:45 Trade compliance. Because it hasn't been a measurable it hasn't been worth it. Yes. Exactly. And now the incentive is there. So I suspect there's probably gonna be some kind of there's a there's a a bill in the Senate that's being talked about and maybe executive order we'll see. to make it much more difficult for this type of fraud. Um But it's not China specific. I think this is like anyone in the world. If you're in a foreign country, you can you can take advantage of this. Don't do that, by the way. And if you're in an American company that's buying from those people on those terms and they're importing for you, you are committing fraud. And I only have one rule in life is I'm never going to jail.

25:21 I don't have the personality for it, you know? If you don't come away with anything from this event, remember that. Go to jail. All right, uh let's go let's go to myth let's go to myth number four. The trade industry itself is struggling to keep up with the times. I remember you tell me a story about um A long beach.

25:44 Taco truck story. The trade industry Is a uh it's an old industry. They sometimes call it the the world's second oldest profession. And we Um And we all want to be data driven in this world. But the problem with data is all it all comes from the same place, which is the past.

26:03 Uhhuh. And when the future looks different from the past, all that expertise and experience actually might serve you wrong you might you might be bad at responding to these circumstances. You might Um and I I I push my team a lot because when a new rule comes out People turn to the experts to understand what it means. I'm like, Well They're just gonna read the thing and you could also read the thing yourself.

26:25 And and get in there. And I think some of that bad habits that form is people just rely on experts instead of going to do it yourself. and go learn. Um and so you see a lot of cases like this. So for one one really interesting example, maybe it's too nerdy for you guys or too sp industry detail dive, but uh if you take um we have these new duties that are on steel and aluminum. And It's a based on the percent of the value of the product that's made up of steel and aluminum. Which is the first time I I think in my knowledge the first time it that duties have been done this way.

26:54 Duties in the past have always been done. Based on the classification of the product. So each product gets a tariff code based on What its classification is. Now it's that plus based on a percent of steel and aluminum composition. Yeah.

27:09 This is a simple thing, by the way. You could do the we could do the math at the whiteboard and like figure this out in thirty seconds. Um the industry doesn't have It is totally broken down big parts of our industry. They can't calculate is we first of all you have to track the data. That's kinda hard. What is the percent of steel aluminum? Nobody knows. They have they didn't track that before. That part's kinda hard. Just stack it on top and uh you do the math. Well we we bu our software engineers built this in three days, built this calculator. The entire industry is using our calculator and acting like it's God's gift. You're like uh this is

27:42 Three engineers built this in three days. Like we it shouldn't be that hard. Sometimes the older an industry is, the harder it is to adapt to technology that makes things easier, not that a calculator maybe may not be the most. Another thing to remember. Shoes in the industry and opportunity. So I gotta be careful. Let's do myth number five here. You know

28:12 This I hear constantly. Buckle up. We've entered a new era of trade. It's Never before seen this is uh this is a whole different game.

28:23 That that I do think is a myth, although this is my opinion. You know, I mean a lot of people believe this and it could be true. But but I look at I I love history. I'm a history buff. I read like a history book every single week, basically. And if you look at the long run of Global trade. First off tariffs have been here forever. Some of the oldest Basically.

28:42 L numbers were invented to calculate tariffs. Like that's why we have math, is so you can figure out how much you owe the the Lord. Um So they've been around for a long, long time. It's like the primary form governments were funded off tariffs for most of human history. Uh some of the big progress that we made was breaking down these barriers to trade, like national unification in Europe.

29:06 France like they used to have a tariff every time you cross to the next Uh you know the next count or whatever to the next property over you had to pay tariffs and they they kinda got rid of that and created countries. But but they've the the the borders of countries have almost always had terrorists. We're in a relatively unique era that we've had for the last since World War II or so, or since Bretton Woods that you've had low tariff barriers, but coming though they'll they'll go up and down. I don't think that's dramatically different, but it one thing

29:34 Long run of history, talk about thousand years of history. Really since the Mongol invasions. You've had four percent annual growth of trade. And four percent growth. Doesn't sound like much for those of us here in Silicon Valley, but when you put it on a one thousand year trajectory, it looks like a hockey stick. In fact, I plotted this and it looks like a hockey stick.

29:54 Curve of exponential growth. on a logarithmic graph. And so you it's very rare you see a hockey stick on a it's an uh that's a hyper exponential function that looks like a straight line up. And we've had all kinds of disruptions in that period, if you may not be aware of things like the Black Death and the Thirty Years' War and World War Two, but still Globalization, trade keeps moving. So I I think you'll see my prediction ten years from now there'll be more trade, not less, but we'll see. And that and that means for those of us who are running businesses that are engaged in trade Don't

30:30 Rush too fast to Reweigh the way you're thinking about things? Yeah, I mean hopefully you'll get a big refund in two months and we're having a party. Well um Ryan, this has been great. Thank you so much. Thank you.

30:53 Ryan's insider view of trade and tariffs is refreshing. And not just because he calls some of his competition dumb. Ryan's insights about the changing nature of trade echo what's going on in other disruptive industries that we can get distracted by the noise and miss the bigger picture. Like Dark Treseder at Autodesk in the first part of this episode. Ryan breaks through the conventionality that marks much of business dialogue to address unspoken truths. We'll share several more unconventional conversations from the Masters of Scale Summit here on Rapid Response, including an exploration of character with retired US general and leadership icon Stanley McChrystal, and a dynamic round robin exchange about the shifting nature of venture capital and entrepreneurship. Featuring our own Reed Hoffman of Greylock Partners and the investor who coined the phrase unicorn for billion dollar companies. You can also catch up with videos from the Masters of Scale Summit on YouTube via the Rapid Response and Masters of Scale channels. I'm Bob Safian.

31:55 Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli.

32:21 Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Le Cal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponesshow.com.

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