Advice Line with Gary Erickson of Clif Bar (May 2024)

0:01 This episode is brought to you by Clavio. Clavio helps you build smarter digital relationships with your customers with its unified data and marketing platform featuring email, SMS, reviews, and more. Make every moment count with Clavio. Lear more at K L A V I Y O Dot com slash BFCM Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So our team is taking a little time off for Thanksgiving. So we're bringing you one from the archives this week. It's the Advice Line with Cliff Bar founder Gary Erickson. Gary was

0:38 First on the show, way back in twenty sixteen, and he told us about how he was trying to make a cookie without butter, sugar, or oil, and the result was Cliff Bar, an energy bar named after his dad. And It became one of the most popular energy bars in the US. So popular, in fact, that Gary later sold Cliff Bar for nearly three billion dollars in twenty twenty two. Gary came back to the show as one of our very first advice line guests earlier this year, and he was the perfect person for this episode. Be sure to stick around to the very end because we have a few updates about some of our callers, but for now Enjoy the show.

1:19 Hello, and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will attempt with me To help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call, and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget Don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyroz.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright?

2:14 Let's get to it. With me this week, one of our very first guests on the show. Gary Erickson. Founder of Cliff Bar, Gary Erickson. Welcome back to the show. It's so awesome to have you back. Thank you, guy.

2:30 Um, so Gary, when you were on the show You And your partner Kit were still the owners of Cliff Bar at the time. Uh though your employees also owned a significant chunk.

2:41 Ін твоі тваричу, автор трьо є. You sold it. And and I know that in that time, th over those thirty years, you the you guys feel the tons of acquisition offers. You'd have to fight some of them off. And in fact, uh I think listeners who remember who heard your episode remember quite an emotional moment in our conversation when you talked about walking away. The first time you had an acquisition offer and you had to come up with the money to buy out your first partner.

3:09 Yeah, I still have Now and then nightmares. Of what if I would have sold the company in two thousand? Yeah. That was after only eight years in business, which is a long time.

3:23 But I can't even describe the exponential Growth and Um good things we were able to pull off over the next, what, twenty two years. Yeah.

3:35 And if we would have sold it, yeah, I probably I'd be fine. I'm happy anyway, I'm happy living in a garage, like I Basically do that. Which I do now. Which I which your bikes. That's right. Which I did um before I met my wife. And uh Uh

3:52 I'm just so thankful that Um We uh we we escaped that moment and went with the gut reaction and the heart. And both of us decided this is what we're gonna do and we did it for twenty two more years. And you turned it into one of the biggest energy bar brands on earth. Um, one of the things that I I love about

4:11 How you started Cliff Bar, um was was that initially you focused on a community of people that you were a part of, which in your case was cyclists. You are an avid cyclist. You go, I know you do these long cycling trips through Europe and Italy um uh multiple times a year. You start by getting the product into their hands, into cyclists' hands, and Was that critical, do you think, to Cliff Barr's eventual success?

4:37 It was the path to success, for sure. Uh many ways to say that, but that's how I feel right now. Um I I think the two sports that I was uh deeply involved in were Well three actually. Um cycling

4:53 I did some triathlons before that and then I was Okay. I climb I climbed since for at that point I was about into twenty years of climbing. And so I went to each of those groups and would just pass out bars. And I knew I had Uh Tiger by the Tail when

5:08 I was able to go to multiple like either climbing crags or bike races or and just literally hand out the bars out of my out of my car. Yeah. And for free. It's like take this. And their reaction sold it to me and then from there on it was just As I say, hang on to the reins.

5:25 Um From year one to You know, we just we never we never did not grow for thirty years. Trevor Burrus And what started out with a you know a small group of people, cyclists, triathlete, Mm climbers eventually became a mass. consumer product with you know moms and kids and

5:42 people on the go and people going to the gym and people just uh getting some energy. I mean so But it really I mean i it's interesting because so I think a lot of really great product start that way. They find A small narrow

5:58 Um who Love it. And then from there they They they th that group helps to grow it out into something bigger. You have to have that foundation first. And then from there you go out. If you're gonna try to go mass market.

6:11 Yeah. Okay. You'd have to have so much funding to be able to do that. And chances are it's not gonna work'cause you've got to build that base. Yeah. So you ready to

6:20 To take a call? Yes, let's go. All right, let's go. Um, first caller on the line, I think it's James. James are you there? I am here. James, introduce yourself. Tell us what the name of your business is and where you uh live.

6:32 I'm calling in from LA, Los Angeles, actually from the Techstars uh Accelerator Program podcast studio. Um I'm representing Stoke Plastics and Opolis Optics. We transform ocean waste plastic into sustainable performance plastic, and we're making everything from adventure gear to luxury hard goods. And tell me what your question is for for for us. Yeah, sure. How did you cut through the noise when building Cliff Bark? And effectively communicate your product's unique benefits in a way that resonated with consumers and made them choose your product over the competition. All right, we're gonna get to your question and to Gary's answers in a moment, but it but if you if you don't mind, indulge me, I have a some questions for you first. So so sure so you so your company's called Stoked Plastics. Correct.

7:22 And you basically use recycled Plastics to make Things like sunglasses and ski goggles, is that right? Yeah, so we our specific or unique niche is that we use water bottles, uh ocean bound and ocean found. Okay, so just to be clear, you've got Stoked Plastics, which is the technology company that makes this recycled material, and then you create a n a separate brand.

7:46 called Opolis, which makes sunglasses and ski goggles using the stoked plastics technology. Correct. Um we started off making, you know, sunglasses and goggles, but now we're doing prototypes for buckles and trims and uh coolers and really anything that uses a high high density of R PET or or PET in manufacturing. Yeah, and now I'm understanding it a little bit more so

8:14 When you look ten years from now Is Stoke Plastics the material supplier of this Great plastic that you're providing. Is that gonna be ninety eight percent of the business and Is there as a kind of grounding thing or signature or you know the other way around.

8:30 So Oplus Optics at this point is almost our proof of concept for Stoke Plastic about the capabilities that we have through our IP. But essentially we would love to replace all virgin pet. um with with our our stoke plastic IP. For us and we want companies and brands to be able to use our stoke plastic in their manufacturing and have our icon right there. So when consumers are shopping, they know that it's affiliated with sustainability, circularity, and performance. It's a really interesting Idea because it's your vertically integrated

9:06 business from the get go. I mean you you you manufacture your own material And then you make your own products. And and essentially what you're saying is by showing how it can be used in your products, the hope is that other brands will just buy stoked plastics, you will continue to make sunglasses and ski goggles, but really it's stoked it's the plastic material that you like Uh everyone to use.

9:29 Yeah, that that's the impact. That's the change that we want to kind of motivate. When uh we first came up with the the IP, you guys. No one wanted to touch us. I was a former US government contractor. We didn't really have a uh a foot in the door in the outdoor industry, so we're like, look. No one's gonna buy it. Let's go create our own product and see how it resonates within the outdoor space and beyond. Uh put on my finance hat. Mm-hmm.

9:58 Uh cost of goods. A pound of A pound of your uh stoked plastic versus Your Same use for

10:07 Same sunglasses or whatever. Sure, that's a great question. And one we get a lot. So yeah, comparative to the R pet that you can currently buy on the market. Ours is about

10:18 ten percent more than than that. Um but because of our high recyclability grade, you know, in economies of scale, we can hit ESG targets a lot quicker for companies that are trying to meet those targets. Yeah. Uh here's a Off the cuff idea. I'm thinking of that idea.

10:39 So I I think in food, organic is Stoked plastics. Like Look, it's gonna be a hard time sometimes to convince the the CFO of company to buy, but if you could

10:51 Build this to be like the organic of That's where you can you can justify the price point. Yeah, because you've got to justify the price point. No, I I like I like that spin on just using organic because that makes people feel good and they know they're paying more money. Yeah, and it's a it's a certification. Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. Um

11:11 Um James W r um just out of curiosity, how how have sales been so far? Well I'll just say it this way. We've got enough sales where, you know, uh funds and investors are are interested in in uh in us. Yeah. Um

11:24 I can't make a a livelihood o of it. Not yet. Uh not yet. But after four years of uh spending a lot of money and this kinda goes into my question to Gary on educating the marketplace on the difference between what we're putting in our sunglasses and goggles and what others are not. Um, and that is just as you guys know, it's just been this huge PR and marketing effort that is time intensive and expensive. So your your question uh was about breaking through, right? And and your question for Gary is why should somebody eat a cliff bar versus a competitor snack, you know, which you're trying to figure out how do we get people to get educated on

12:04 What we're offering. Gary, where do you where would you even start? No boy. It's a tough one. It's changed over the last thirty years it's changed so much. Uh

12:14 Yeah. I'll start with our story. You know, in nineteen ninety two Um it was really only power bar. And A few bars had come out.

12:23 During that time. But they were kinda like they took the Power bar ingredients and they added You know, a little more vanilla or they you know, a little more peanut butter or something. We created a completely different product.

12:34 Okay. You're kinda like that and you're kinda not. Like you're You're there's so many sunglass companies I I don't have to tell you. And there's some beautiful designs out there in all these companies, but you know, what is the difference? And we had this radically di we had to educate people that it is an energy bar, it just tastes

12:51 Better. Mm. And so we sampled a lot, which was That was instant sale. But you can't get to everybody. So we did some print ads and we did a print ad called It's Your Body You Decide.

13:03 And it was going directly after Powerbar. And in in five days we had a lawsuit against the sued you guys. And Blessing in disguise, right, Gary? Because it got you all this attention. Yeah.

13:15 You took the words out of my story. Sorry. Sorry. No, I'm glad you did because it's so it's people don't realize that sometimes It might be what you want. And you know, so I and I think people are afraid to attack. competition. So you know, my my question back to you would be like do you pick The number one

13:33 competitor that you can grab. Or do you do'em all together And Um, you know, do you go after them and Create a super aggressive Campaign that gets you

13:46 PR'Cause back then there was no PR. That's per se. But it was usually oh in in a retail magazine or a a trade magazine, you know. Cliff Bar get sued by a power bar. We're like Thank you. And guys right. Like then all these bike shops are like Well let's just try it.

14:01 I mean, gosh, th and they did. We had seven hundred accounts in like months. And our goal um This sounds very aggressive, but we're our goal is to put him out of business. For the first ten to fifteen years, our people were like we are going to just go after their market share. Everywhere we could.

14:20 That's how you tell people you're different. You've gotta show the difference between what Everybody's doing you're not doing and that you can't be bashful or shy about it. You gotta That's my opinion. Yeah. You know what's kinda cool is like you could have you could basically take a competitor sunglasses and just show a pile of plastic and say, this becomes this. Yeah. Right. Yeah, guy. You took the design right out of my head, our heads. Or looking for some marketing guy. Call my eight hundred number.

14:52 And and Gary, how important is um like athlete influencer association with with with Brand voice, brand identity. It was it was in our mix. Always. And we still have You know, world class athletes with cliff bar stickers on their helmets and like ski racing. Um you know our

15:11 You're you're into skiing'cause I I saw your goggles, you know, Bryce Bennett. We won a World Cup race this year, he gets in the start line and you see this big red sticker and then he crosses the finish line and he wins and he literally points to the cliff bar sticker on his helmet like holy c That is worth so much. Doesn't get better than that, does it? It doesn't get better than that. And so I a hundred percent, without having to go on and on about it, yes, we've we've always had athletes from day one. endorsing our product. And they're super legit. They're not just celebrities who, you know, look good and you know, they

15:44 They could choose anything, but these people used our product. For function. And for quality and for and believing in our story. I think that's a key point, Gary, is that There will be some consumers who are attracted to to the the story and the recycled

16:00 um aspect of it. But I I think most people are gonna want to know about the function. They're gonna wanna know why this is better. And I I think this That having An athlete having a you know, I think like an Alex Honnald or an outdoor person, you know, somebody or Michaela Schiffer and wearing the g ski goggles. I'm not you know, they're probably already the sponsors of it. But but you you think about you think about the shoe brand on, right, which we're we're gonna tell that story in the show. I mean that Roger Federer supercharged that brand. Because all of a sudden Roger Federer is wearing ons and people are like, What is that?

16:33 Roger Fair and they must be amazing. People need to understand. Yeah. 'Cause the majority of people are gonna buy it'cause they look good and they're functional, not'cause they're recycled. And I and I'm I promise to do this. I'm gonna get some, but I'm paying retail, buddy. I'm going online and I'm paying that's my that's my gig. I pay retail. That's fine with me. I pay retail.

16:53 That's fine with me. That's a huge deal. A lot of people are gonna be like, what is Gary wearing? Okay. I just resigned from the World Cup, so I don't think Yeah. Up there with how I built this and uh Gary Ericsson wearing our our our eyewear, that would be cool. James, thank you so much for calling in. Good luck. We're gonna be following your progress and uh And we'll catch up with you. Maybe you'll be back on the show.

17:19 I hope so, you guys, uh guy I've been listening to for for four years, you've got me through a lot of ups and downs. And Gary, you've gotten me through a lot of hikes Snowboard trips, surf trips, uh through your bars. I I really appreciate the time and and and thoughts. James, thanks a lot and uh hope we get to catch up more. I'd like to, you know, catch up one on one if we can someday just to Check it out. I'd love that. Thank you guys. All right. Take care. Um Gary.

17:45 I mean this is a com complex business, but I think the idea of producing the material and Turning into products is a kind of a cool idea. It's super innovative. I mean, he's gone from zero to vertically integrating his business. Like Right away.

18:00 Yeah. Um There there are a lot of ingredients and materials out there that Or Like what he's doing, but they're more

18:09 purely functional like a better plastic or a better Uh Kevar, for example, or carbon fiber, you know, c uh radically changed the bike industry, but There's no patent on Carbon fiber and everybody's doing carbon fiber. There's a I think he's got the advantage if they can get the IP on that.

18:28 And It's got it's gotta be functional and it looks like it is. Very functional. Uh at the same time it's got that property that, you know, it's where everything is moving towards more sustainable. Yeah, totally.

18:40 Um, Gary, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, a co-op of artisans competing with giants like Etsy. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Hey, before we get back to the show, we wanna share this call that we got from a listener about a pretty funny encounter with Cliff Bar and a competitor.

19:15 Hi, my name is Brad and I'm welcome to the I'm gonna be right now with Jared from Cliff Bart and I have a very relevant story that I just wanted to tell very quickly. I was working in if I shopping the lap Utah in nineteen ninety. Two or three. And power bar was the only option really.

19:32 And I remember uh all of a sudden Cliff Bar showed up on the scene and uh one guy walked in and I thought he was a customer and he goes and looks at our uh energy bar display. And I point over to the cliff bar and I'm like, You gotta try these, they're so much better than the power bars. You know, and that's our time I even That's gonna happen. power bar a little bit and was raving about cliff bar. And you just kinda like oh he takes it in.

19:55 He walked out and when I look out the window he got into a power bar van and left and the power bar wrecked. Brad, thanks so much for sharing your story and thanks so much for listening to the show. And let's get back to the episode. Hey, welcome back to the advice line here on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and I'm with Gary Erickson. Um so, Gary. Market share i is obviously super important, right? Especially in a in a crowded space and And as more and more competitors uh started to get into into the energy bar space, um

20:37 How how are you able to fend off the competition and stay ahead? Like what what were some of the strategies that worked. I would argue that we were built through grassroots marketing. You know, we didn't we did some print ads at the beginning. Which did put us on the map.

20:52 Um but Kit and I would fly all over the w the country and be cutting up bars and thousands of pieces of bars just f at these marathons. It was grass it's so hard, but and then we started hiring people to do that for us. We had a team of twenty five people around the country and then they had local people that they would hire for the weekend events. And I really think that's what put us on the map. But where our product was uh Inexpensive enough where we could actually give out whole bars. And they could experience that and then the next thing you know, they're buying twelve, twenty four and

21:23 Hundreds and We built a lot of loyal I mean we have such loyalty with S a a small group of people that buy the majority of our product. Yeah.

21:33 Okay. Let's get another call in. What do you say? Another one, okay. Valerie is on the line. Hello, Valerie.

21:41 Hello, hello. Welcome to the show. Um please introduce yourself. Tell us your f your first and last name, what the name of your business is and where you live. My name is Valerie Franklin and I'm representing Artisans Cooperative and I'm calling in from the beautiful North Oregon coast. Nice. Oh, this is a beautiful place. Okay. Um, and what's your question? So we have almost no funds, but a strong bottom up community ownership. How do we break into a market space that is filled with giants like Etsy and Amazon? Ooh. Those are giants. Okay, we've we've we certainly told the Etsy story on the show.

22:17 First of all, tell us a little bit about about um your business, about Artisans Cooperative. What is it? What do you do? Yeah, Artisans Cooperative is a co op alternative to Etsy. We're growing an online handmade marketplace for crafters, makers, and artists. Owned and managed by the people who love it.

22:36 Well, I'm looking at the website now, and so first of all What what's the problem with Etsy? Why did you'cause it seems like you are really it is competing with Etsy. But what What prompted you to To start this.

22:51 Well, um I it's easiest for me to answer in some ways from a personal point of view, because I'm one half of a leathercrafting business, a small husband and wife leather crafting business that we started on Etsy in two thousand and nine. Um so we know Etsy very well and we're still on Etsy, um, and they are a great option to have in your portfolio as a small artist or maker.

23:16 Um, but over the years they've changed a lot. you know starting in I think twenty twelve They started growing much bigger. Twenty fifteen they went through an IPO. And celery started becoming, I would say the product as much as the um

23:32 offering the the way that Etsy's making revenue. So um this all really got started when they Increase their f's a second time. by thirty percent in twenty twenty two. Um, and they announced that fee increase in the same week that they announced record profits.

23:48 And that was just something that struck a lot of small makers and artists who rely on this income. Kinda struck a nerve. Yeah. Um and so it kind of spontaneously organized into a protest online through social media, which is how I got involved. Um it was called the Etsy strike and um thousands of shops.

24:08 took their listings off of the site for a week in protest. Um and it actually caught some pretty good mainstream attention, but didn't change the fact that the fees were going up again. It's at the point where a sales commission might vary anywhere from ten percent to forty percent per sale. Right. And you won't really know what that is until the sale happens. And and and how do you t how do you differ from Etsy? Like you're chart presumably you're you're charging much lower fees to your sellers. Um not necessarily, no. Um the the big difference is that we're owned and operated or were owned by the members themselves. So a cooperative is a member owned business that's um organized on a principle of one member, one vote.

24:51 Um so uh we have a multi-stakeholder cooperative. Which means that the artisans themselves can be owners of the business and the shoppers or any general supporter can become an owner of the business. Which means they get governance rights, they get a vote. and they get to s have a say in how things are run. And they get financial rights so that when we have profits, the dividends are distributed.

25:13 Among the people. Yeah. How many artisans do you now have um involved? Um we have a a little over three hundred members now. Um yeah, and we have about I think two hundred shops on our marketplace. Okay. So Valerie, um you Brought us this question about you've got

25:30 say almost no funds to but you've got a strong Bottom up community. How do you break into a a marketplace kind of dominated by Amazon et C eBay and other m massive retailers. Gary

25:43 Oh man, this is a tough one. Well you've got a real targeted Competitor. Uh you would call Etsy a competitor, is that correct? Um, yes, although we're not necessarily trying to replace Etsy. If we could get the one percent of artisans who are um looking for alternatives and the consumers who are looking for um ethical Options I think.

26:07 You know, that's a great starting place. So the answer is yes, there's your competitor. Yes. You just don't want to say it. So yeah, I mean we used to say that at the beginning when we at Cliff Bar, like if we could just get Oh man. Ten percent of their business server. twenty percent of their business. I'll be set for life, you know, and that would be like we'd be revenue of a million dollars and um And little did we know that we far surpassed that. But so yeah, so you could target that. Don't be

26:35 Don't be shy about that. Um Is there a place where You would feel like if we got here Then

26:43 We've got momentum. And we've we're we're able to sustain our business. For long haul. Like how far are you from there right now? That's a great question. Um And I think that's one of the special challenges we have in trying to build a marketplace is that we're in a bit of a chicken or an egg situation. We need um enough

27:01 Artisans to provide good consumer choice for the shoppers who are coming on so they have things to sort through and and to find what they're looking for. But we need enough customers to make it worthwhile for artisans to want to sign up. And so I hope that we're growing both in step with each other. In a balanced way. Um We're

27:19 We're not there yet. We just started. We launched our beta marketplace with existing tech in October. uh of this year, so six months ago. And I would say we're probably You know.

27:32 At least Um half of where I'd want to be. Um start feeling like we were getting there. And I think about it, you know, it's really interesting because we we've done a whole series on the show recently about

27:44 content creators and the business of content creation and, you know, ten years ago was In order to to ha to reach mass scale in media you had to be on CNN or you know, be at a major media organization today. You can be some dude with a YouTube channel and reach fifty million subscribers, right? And so what's interesting about how social media platforms work now is that They want to attract all these creators, right? So Um, for a long time it was YouTube where they're were they were trying to get onto because YouTube paid the most and then they went to TikTok and now a lot of people are migrating to Snapchat. Now they all use all of them, but these different platforms offer different incentives and it now it it's getting me to my

28:22 question for you, which is is there a world Where You could offer an incentive that is so good. You know, like No fees for the first year or something radical.

28:35 Where That kind of message spreads among crafters'cause there are I mean cra there are craft fairs all over the country. Crafters talk to each other. You guys have a Discord channel, I see. Is there some kind of incentive that you You.

28:51 are able to offer to bring This cr critical mass in? That's a really good question. Um I I absolutely think that we could come up with such a um offer if we could find the right audience and the right moment to share it. Um, but I do think one of the things we've had a challenge with being on a platform is that we we don't have a lot of ways to connect with other artisans other than at like craft fairs and things like that. Because places like Etsy um control the narrative and control their forums. Yeah, but you but but right, that's right. But for you to control the narrative, you've gotta give your members the tools, you're gonna make it easy for them, right? I mean you've got three hundred members.

29:31 Each of those members is on social media. I mean, they're not they may not have hundreds of thousands of followers, but they might have hundreds or ha or thousands on their social media and And I wonder whether you you can leverage your community in a better way to have them promote what you're doing. I think our members are not only committed, they're literally invested. They're co op member owners, they've invested in this company and we're all um equal owners of it together. So

30:00 It brings up an interesting point that I hadn't fully thought through, which is that, you know, artisans have are we have people who are just starting their careers. People who are doing it just for fun. And then people like me and my partner who do this full time for a living. And um so everybody comes with it with a different set of skills and a different background and um you know, using everybody's strengths where they are makes a lot of sense. Um

30:27 Valerie. For the first time and maybe they're they buy something. Do you got'em? Like

30:35 Do they come back? They're like, Wow, I never thought this existed. This is Really different. And I think s I think we've had uh repeats. Customers um already. Yeah, I mean in our six months of of operating, I think one of the ways that we try to encourage that is, you know, through email campaigns and trying to make people aware of all the variety of things on our platform. Everything from wooden coasters to hand woven silk shawls. Um, you know, there there is such a wide variety of products and that's sort of the the treasure hunt of it.

31:08 You know, one of yeah, one of the things that I noticed, I'm gonna give you some feedback on this. I know the site's early, it's still in beta form, but it's there's too much. It's too there's too much stuff. There's join the member, four artisans, handmade, this there's all these p drop down things and What I think Etsy does well and what I think you could do really well is They just have pictures of different categories, and you have some of that, but Gary, you know, I know Gary is a psychologist. And is there a world where you've got like

31:36 People who love cycling or you know, f g I'm you've got clothing and accessories. Arts and craft, but could you break that down even further, like Beanies or Games um instead of like personal care and leisure, like Domino lovers. I mean, you you don't have to get like super, super like micro niche, but you could get kind of niche. And you know, I understand you guys don't have massive budgets.

32:00 But you you're working with artists. I mean I know you you have a lot of talent in your in your group. to really kind of think a bit more Intentionally about the design of the website. To make it a little to make it pop a little bit more. You know what I mean, Gary?

32:15 I li I like that a lot. And I I like also that you're You're Try to move toward something that Etsy isn't doing on their website or if with their product line or whatever is available.

32:28 I mean y you know, there okay, you could go to if you want to differentiate, you know, it could be your Headline, you know, you may not find this on Etsy. Yeah. You may not you w me you may not want to say You won't find this because maybe you will, but you could say you may not find this on Etsy that would give them like well there maybe there's other stuff on here I won't find in Etsy.

32:48 And'cause you've got to create That's you can't be an Etsy with better values. Yeah. You gotta be at sea with A different product. I'm telling you, I agree. I'm just spitballing here, but maybe think of a different way of categorizing what you offer.

33:03 And you focus on the things that people love or or might, you know, be attracted to. So so here's a question that follows that. I hope perfectly. Um Yeah.

33:13 How many people come to this and buy a gift? versus buying something for themselves. Um, that's a great question. I would say s um So far. More

33:25 uh purchases have been personal and yet that contradicts my own experience with my own business. Um that when you make these niche things that are perfect for that one person you know. More a higher percentage of them as gifts. I also know that Etsy is pushing gifts hard right now. Okay, that's interesting. That was their super bowl ad. Is that right? Yes.

33:48 But gifts is but g Gary, you're right. Gifts is the way to go. I mean if you push gift, you might find something for yourself, too. You know, like you go in for like I go to wherever, wherever and buy a gift for my family or my wife or something. And I then I ended up like well, this looks I think I wanna get this for myself. Yeah. I mean there's a lady here who's making N

34:09 Beanies with like an octopus on it. And the chicken and the lemon. I mean there there's a Th the octa there's lots of people of octopuses. Or the same one. I'm on the same page. The yellow one? Right. The yellow picture. Yeah. I'm looking I'm looking for gifts. I'm looking for a gift for somebody. And I don't know even know where to begin. You could have a revolving Top gifts.

34:32 Top sold gifts. Yeah. And if you just had like a headline of like First thing is top fifty gifts. And'cause if I'm looking for a gift, I wouldn't know where to start here. Yeah. And I would like to be led to the easy.

34:43 I might come back here and be buying gifts all the time. Yeah. Because I'm always searching for a gift for my Friends and family. Valerie, I think there's I think I think we're on to something.

34:54 I think we might be on to something. You have given me so many great ideas and feedback and direction, and I um absolutely Loved Gary's point too that gifts are a great add on and a be great way to increase our per order amount. Um Not look for yourself and also think about uh other gifts to add on. You know, and and back to the back to trying to get that message out. Is

35:18 Wherever you get if you could just say. A gift you may not find on Etsy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Try that. Right, right. Try that. And you know, Etsy's not going out of business. And we love Etsy, by the way.

35:31 Big fans too, so No sh no no shade de Etsy. Valerie Franklin Artisans Cooperative, thanks for calling in. Good luck. We'll be watching. Awesome. I was delighted to be here. Thank you so much. All the best, Call. Great job. Gary, I'm gonna get you a

35:48 Uh chicken hat. I think. Which one? I don't know, that or the lemon, the big lemon on the side of that knit hat. I think that one's a little bit more than a little bit. I think you look good cycling through through Italy on your racing bike. I have to put it over the helmet if I can get it over the helmet. Um all right, we're gonna take another quick break, Gary, uh but when we come back An inventor whose fluffy dog gave her a great idea. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the advice line here on how I built this lab.

36:35 Hello and welcome back to the advice line here on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. Uh Gary, what do you say? Let's should we go ahead and bring in our last collar. Alright. Hello Elsie, are you there?

36:48 Can you hear me? Yes we can. Hello, Elsie. Please tell us tell us your name, uh what your company's called, their business, and where you where you live. Hi. Okay. Hi, Gary.

37:02 I'm in. Denver Colorado. And I started my company Lily Brush fourteen years ago. After I invented a pet hair clean up tool.

37:15 That's Faster than vacuuming. and better than sticky rollers without creating single use waste. I've since then For more pet hair cleanup products.

37:28 And now we have this incredible core group of pet parents and professional cleaners who love our products. But I'm still struggling. With how to scale up our marketing. Um, so more people can find us. Right. Okay. So be before we so you're looking to figure out how to scale

37:50 Uh. Um to to get more people to find you, um, how to do it efficiently. Before we get there, let me ask you a couple of questions. Lily Brush is the is the b so this is a A pet hair remover for Like any like furniture and and

38:04 Whatever Pet Hair. I'm a I've got two cats and a dog. So this is a big problem in my house. We have a lot of pet here about one cat that is particularly Bushy hair. Morty, he's a great cat, but he's just sheds everywhere. Um

38:19 w how does your pro like how is it different than than like uh you know, I don't know, a roller or other Pet brush removers. Oh. I Let me count the way. Please tell us, yes. Count'em out count'em out loud.

38:32 Okay, I will. So if you have pets that have that very heavy undercoat. That soft fluffy stuff that sheds all year long. We make these fantastic bristle products that You just You just

38:51 Brush back and forth. across here picks it all up. There there's no sticky roll or ways. There's There's no peeling. And it's it's

39:03 Faster than vacuuming. And you just pull the hair out and you just sit in the It it stays right on top of the bristles. Yeah and you just I like to tell people take the hair outside'cause birds like to use it for nests. Wow, that's cool. You're recycling like our like jams and plastics. You can build a nest for a bird, and then and then your cat can go and eat the bird. Oh dear. No how did you s well tell me how you started this business because I I see you started in 2010. What were you I mean W did you have a different job? Are you doing something different in your life at that point?

39:42 I was. It's it's kind of One of those crazy stories. Yeah. But I I used to be a painter. I was a portrait and still life artist. And uh

39:56 And uh Two thousand nine. I I was a single mom and I shoveled a driveway full of snow. And it caused my widow maker artery to

40:11 T. Dissect. It's uh at the family dinner table. So wow. Uh

40:19 After I was I was very lucky to wake up The next morning. Wow.

40:25 I I went to reach for a water glass. And my hands were shaking. They were like They were like nervous parakeets. I'm sure you can hear it in my voice. I have Yeah.

40:41 A pretty. Prominent tremor. And so Uh. I knew.

40:49 Yeah, that morning. My painting career was over. Wow. So No, I

40:58 I've never looked back. I just I knew I had to find a new career. I mean a ma it's an amazing story because you have this Of course, near death experience with the heart attack. And it completely changes your trajectory. You wait I mean, you're a painter, you need still hands, but you have a tr to you develop a tremor. And you have to

41:19 But it's like it's so I mean it's one of those w weird things. It's like That happened. And that As a result of that

41:29 You started this thing. Right. Like this none of this would have happened without that h horrible tragedy, but it's an amazing kind of turn of events. I I just That's that's how my life has always been. I've had a lot of faith in

41:47 Uh just Follow the lead if something happens, you just keep going through it. I love I love your website. It's really clear. It pops. I like the logo, lily brush, the red, it pops. How did you how did you invent this thing? So I had to go to rehab.

42:07 For my heart, and I always wear this polar fleece jacket. And this little dog Lily used to enjoy sitting on the couch with me. She's an Australian shepherd. Yeah. She's a very fluffy dog. All right. And so I go to rehab. With all the other eighty year olds. Yeah. I was only forty eight when I happened.

42:30 So I'd go and I'd be covered in pet hair. And it was embarrassing, but So I went to To That's smart. And I looked

42:41 To see if there was anything that would take care of the pet hair and all they had. Was a sticky roller. And I I hate single use

42:52 Products. Yeah. So But I I wasn't allowed to left it vacuum, so I took the sticky roller home. And I would carry it with me and roll my thlees. I just thought there's gotta be a better way.

43:09 And then one day I was scrubbing around the fixtures in my kitchen. And Lily happened to Jump onto the couch in front of me and she had muddy paws. So I went over with a toothbrush and I I want to wipe the mud off of the off of the couch.

43:32 And I noticed that her hair stuck to the bristles. And I was like, Oh. I it just it was like ah So I I ran upstairs.

43:44 I have two sons. I took both their toothbrushes, cut the heads off of them. And I I found this little palm size block of wood in the garage and I super glued these three toothbrush heads onto it mine as well. And Yeah.

44:04 My kids came home and they found me cleaning the whole house with this little block of wood with toothbrush heads on it. And I'm sure they thought I'd had a stroke. So Elsie, uh Guy has a question. I know this is in your head right now, Guy. Did you keep that prototype?

44:21 Of course. That you've got a f that's a f that's a s Smithsonian. Yeah. You know, museum piece. Good. That is that is so awesome. Yeah.

44:32 So L C obviously is coming with question of how How can she scale this? How can she get the word out? How can she grow this thing? It's she's been doing it for t since two thousand ten. Yeah. Um Gary, what what what's what's your take?

44:47 I I need I've got a lot. This is I mean I I just gotta t I'm so inspired by the story, all all of it. Um So It's awareness. And trial.

44:58 Now how do you do trial? Uh. question. Do you are you in like Pet Co or any of the you know, pet Mart or any of those retailers.

45:08 So we're in This I'm very proud of this. We're in a container store. That was our First. Yeah. Company and I

45:19 It took me a long time to get there. Um we are we kill it on Amazon, even though After like the first year uh Alibaba. Just started pumping out. uh copies, but cheap copies of our products.

45:39 And the thing I hate Uh The product uh These guys are making that are copying ours. Is uh

45:48 They They only last for a week or two. And I I built our products to last four. Really The lifetime of your pet. I mean that's that's the competitive advantage. Gary makes me think of uh episode we did on TRX straps with uh Randy Hetrick s several years ago because

46:09 That happened right away. All of a sudden all these copycats and they were poor quality But you know, he spent and still spends a lot of money um suing them, and I know you don't have those kinds of those resources and and time and it's a pain. But I feel like a simple fix is is to k emphasize what you just said, you know, the original and you know, best uh because I feel like that is You know, the brand is w was is your advantage here, right? Right.

46:41 We d we it's it's a tough one, guy, because Um When I first started Talking the buyers. They used to kind of laugh at me. Because they're like

46:54 Why would you make something that lasts for years and years? We don't we don't want that. We want the repurchase but The fact that these things last so long has um kind of one of our problems. I wonder whether there you know, I think about partnerships.

47:12 Right. And Um I'm you know, increasingly you're seeing collaborations, right, with brands, and certainly in apparel. Adidas and Gucci or Liquid Death does that's not apparel, but they're doing partnerships with different kinds of brands like grooming, men's grooming, for example. I wonder if there's a way. For you to partner with

47:33 Uh uh product that is associated with cleaning cars. I mean or carpets. Um something like that where They get it.

47:44 You know They get it with that product. I think about that too. Um like uh a different a vacuum like abyssal or something like that. Yeah.

47:57 That's a that's a great point, guys. Yeah, especially a pr a product like Bissell or like a a brand like that that's not It's probably a little easier to get to to the to the right person there. It's not an Adidas where there's a bazillion people pitching them. I mean, I don't think a lot of people are pitching Bissell for for collaborations. But you you know, it could be kinda cool. Right. Or like you like like this to me seems like You know how Slim Jim is it it like Slim Jim is at the check out counter of every convenience store, right? And like That's basically, you know, how Slim Jim and and now five hour energy is there too. Like I see this as a product that's at the checkout of every car wash.

48:35 Right. Ideal. And I do go to the car wash trait show. And I d uh the first year I went, I thought it was

48:47 I'd made a terrible mistake. Because I had this little ten foot booth. And I'm in this hall with all these spinning brushes and bright lights, and I sort of timidly went And started doing demos. And the next thing I knew my

49:06 My booth was Three people. Deep just mobbed. For for Three days. So that's

49:14 When when Gary talks about Uh Going and giving away product at at bike events. You know, I that resonates with me because

49:29 I knew. I'd hit something that But We're still just A little tiny brand were still

49:40 You know, they talk on Shark Tank, they talk about the cockroach that people can stomp on. We're still that little guy. And uh It makes me nervous. It's fourteen years in. No or

49:57 Trying so hard. Um And we're still that little guy. Well first off, don't give up. Okay.

50:06 I think you've got You have something here. I wouldn't even I I'm I'm Embarrassed that I didn't know your brand before this, because we've had You've I've I've got these sort of sayings about innovation and so you've solved a problem. Cliff Bar to me solved a problem with a better taste and energy bar. You're

50:24 Um And you know, you're in it's inventive. It's a Totally original. How can you get more original than using

50:31 toothbrushes to me, the first product. And it's it's transformative. You know, you're you're It for people that have this issue We

50:40 Everybody has a dog and a cat. Pretty much has this issue. And we all wanna solve it, but we just are lazy and we just you know, and it's hard and you try to vacuum, vacuum doesn't work and the roly thing doesn't work. So there's that. I feel like It's a matter of time in some ways. This is the kind of product that if you could get it into the hands

51:01 of a couple of the celebrities who just have, you know, who post with their pet all the time. Like I think I don't know if Chrissy Teegan has pets, but just think of somebody like that, you know, like Chrissy Teegan who's like associated with like cooking in a beautiful house and like you could just imagine her like, Oh my God, this like you know, here I am. Brushing this off with this thing, I think to get to some of those really high end ones. You've got to incentivise them.

51:28 You know, you've gotta say something like look We're trying to scale this and uh You know, we'd love to partner with you in some way. I don't know what that would look like, but To me it's just a matter of like getting it. into

51:41 Getting it to a place where somebody like that who's a real like lifestyle influencer. Gets people excited about it. Because as Gary said, it's a great product. It's just a matter of getting it.

51:54 Getting in front of the right eyeballs. Um, question, how many people are with you in your company? Um There are four of us. Four people's pretty lean.

52:06 Uh-huh. Um It's tough. Yeah. So I love Guy's idea of the retail thing. Like at the counter.

52:14 I mean it we've all bought stuff that When we're in a store like Ah never I didn't. What's that? Oh okay, I'll buy that.

52:21 And you may have to bring on a sales person that you've never thought of needing before that can go to the So The car washes and the car washes and the Walgreens and the you know and uh Whatever and

52:33 You know. We bootstrapped it. So it's been slow growth. Yeah. But we've got money in the bank. That's awesome. So I I just

52:45 I just have to figure out. Who to hire? I'm really into giving people a shot. You know? Show me what you got.

52:56 And And Do your best and let's see. So I get You know, marketing people from University of Denver. And they it was cool, you know, two, three years watching someone develop.

53:11 But I think it's time uh So we go and we find someone who really knows what the heck they're Do I? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

53:20 And we do we do have the money to do that. I just Honestly. I

53:28 I've done this whole thing. I've flown by the seat of my pants. Yeah this whole time. It's super impressive. And you know, for the for the record, I think if you can do it self funded Then you control your destiny. A dime from anybody over our thirty years of running Cliff Bar, we never brought on an equity partner. Yeah.

53:52 I'm L C We're gonna um we're gonna be following you and Lily Brush and uh and good luck. Thank you for calling in. I think you've got something there, and I think in about uh six months time from now we if we check in on you again. You will have hired somebody to take the load off and hopefully to start to r really do some of that business expansion that you're not able to do because of the other stuff you have to focus on. I hope so.

54:19 And and Guy and Gary, thank you so much. I just You guys are My heroes uh welcome. And thank you. And you know, it's we're just starting to roll, so just keep this momentum going with other people and keep this conversation going with other people that can support what we've talked about and take you, help you

54:43 Take it up a notch or two. We're being here. Thank you, L C Well. All right. Great jobs.

54:51 So I'm ordering one tonight. You're gonna be saddled with all these products after today, Gary. I'm solving all kinds of problems today. We're getting ski goggles. I got a brush and and and now I've got all this like these crafts f what's going on? Well, you know, I I have Yeah, like all of our friends have animals. I'm probably gonna order A dozen of these and then pass them around and then tell them to See, that's the other way to do it. You know, it this is a word of mouth product. It's a word of total word of mouth product. And you could have a brush.

55:24 In every vehicle you've got? Yeah. You know room you've got. They're just sitting there. Because then you don't have to go, Where's that brush?

55:33 It's yeah. They're everywhere. Okay. Gary, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It's awesome to have you. I'm honored. Thank you so much.

55:42 That's Gary Ericsson, founder of Cliff Bar. And by the way, if you haven't heard Gary's original how I built this episode, you've Gotta go back and check it out. It's so fun. Uh, you can find a link to it in the podcast description, and here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. You know, I remember setting up a little table. And standing out there in the aisle with a tray of cut up bars and and as people walk by it's hey try the try this new energy bar and they were like no no no I've had energy bar I don't want to try Oh come on just try it.

56:12 And they'd try it and then they would walk along and they wouldn't want to look back and like'cause they were gonna, you know, didn't want to embarrass me and then they would be chewing it and they would turn around and go, Come right back and go, What is that? And by the way, since we first ran this episode, a few cool things have happened for the startup entrepreneurs we talked to. James's company actually collaborated with an eyewear brand on a pair of snow goggles made entirely with stoked plastics, and it's now available at REI. And Elsie? Well, back in May, she underwent surgery to correct her tremor and It was a success. Slowly but surely, she is regaining control of her hand and voice again. It's awesome news. Congrats, Elsie. Thank you everybody for listening to the show this week. If you are working on a business and you would like to be on this show, please send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions or problems that you would like help with. And please make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us that voice memo.

57:09 at H IBT at ID.wonder.com or you can call us one eight hundred 433-1298 and leave a message there and we'll put all of this in the podcast description on your smartphone. Thanks again, we will see you back here next time. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ramtin Arablui, it was edited by Jonas Bellup, and our audio engineer was James Willits. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Esteves, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard,

57:40 Niva Grant, Devin Schwartz, Katherine Seifer, and Carrie Thompson. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to the advice line here on how I built this lab.

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