Skype and Kazaa: Niklas Zennström

0:06 This thing is is growing. There's a lot of excitement around it. Meantime, um, you do get served with papers. from this previous lawsuit. Yeah. I was walking out.

0:18 With my wife And Then someone comes up And uh calls my name. So I start running. Um

0:27 Because I didn't want to be served, then someone else steps in in front of me. And then there's a motorcycle coming. So there's all these people from all different direction and of course a slip. And you get this you know, thick This is like a movie.

0:43 Yeah. That was the moment that we wanted it to avoid, but we knew it would kind of happen at some point. Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. I'm Guy Raz and on the show today, how a small team of Scandinavian entrepreneurs disrupted two global industries and built two iconic brands.

1:16 and Skype. The nineteen nineties were a really different time. In those years, before Spotify and Amazon and Apple music, if you wanted to listen to a specific song, You had to buy the whole CD at a record store.

1:39 And if you lived in one country and wanted to talk to someone in another country, It was gonna cost you a lot of money, like a dollar or more per minute. But both of those frustrations disappeared. practically overnight in the early two thousands.

1:55 Music became widely accessible and shareable, and audio calls from one country to another. became free. Now at first, it might seem like music and international phone calls have nothing to do with each other. But the new startups that were disrupting both the music and the telecom industries We're all powered by the same provocative idea.

2:18 Peer to peer networking. Basically, you remove the middleman. be it big telecom or the music industry. And you let users Find each other on the internet.

2:29 And this was a totally revolutionary concept. Two friends, one Swedish, the other Danish, helped pioneer the technology that enabled much of this upheaval. Their names are Nicholas Zenstrom and Janice Frees. The first platform they built was called Kaza, and when it was released in the early 2000s,

2:48 It made it easy for anyone to share a media file with anyone else on the internet. Kazau was really cool and it was loved by many people, but It was soon crushed under the weight of several lawsuits by the recording industry. To them, what Kazar was allowing was basically online piracy. So Nicholas and Janice decided to try something else, to take the idea of peer to peer networking.

3:14 and apply it to telephone calls. In two thousand three, they launched Skype. Overnight. Anyone with an internet connection and a cheap microphone could call anyone else with those things and talk for free as long as they wanted. Skype was eventually sold to eBay and then, in 2011, sold again, this time to Microsoft, for eight and a half billion dollars.

3:39 Since then, Skype has become less of a force. In fact, just recently, Microsoft announced plans to retire it. But regardless, in their respective moments, Both Skype and Kaza rattled powerful industries. and helped upend the top down hierarchy of the ear internet. Nikola Zenström was and still is a serial entrepreneur who grew up in Uppsala, Sweden.

4:04 It's a university town where both his parents were teachers. The family would spend their summers sailing around the islands in their small boat. In the Baltic Sea. We spent, you know, uh f most of the summers sailing in a little boat, uh, you know, with my parents, my sister and the dog.

4:26 And I spend a lot of hours just making drawings of sailing boats. So sailing as a kid, I know was like a real passion and and and you had this sort of idea of maybe one day being a a naval architect, which is a very specific kind of job. You did you were in the Navy. I mean there was a time when Sweden Uh, I don't think it still has it, but it had compulsory military service. So you served what for like a year or half a year in the Navy? Yeah, like one and a half year and it was compulsory service. This was also again, this was In the eighties.

4:58 where you know we still had the end of the cold war. And Russian submarines was routinely doing their Exercise in Swedish territorial water, so So it was actually quite exciting to be in the Navy then it's like we tried to find Russian submarines, but we were not successful. But um I was quite happy afterwards to not to continue. Yeah. I was really keen to start studying, so I kinda moved on.

5:24 Got it. And and I guess for college, uh, you went you went to Uppsala. university w in Sweden, which is where your parents taught and And instead of of pursuing naval architecture, you you would wind up studying uh engineering. Yes. And I guess when you graduate you

5:41 You got a job at with like a big Swedish conglomerate and I guess they were uh trying to start like a new service like a new telecom service called Tell it to Yeah, so the main business was, you know Fixed.

5:53 Telephony. phone line in your house. Yeah. But the other side business that they had was data networks. uh commercial internet offering. And that was exciting because they kinda coincided with Mosaic browser Yeah.

6:09 And Where the company offered dial up internet to consumers. And that really, really took off and it coincided with a um campaign or initiative that actually the Swedish government was doing where if you bought a computer for home Through your company.

6:27 It was tax deductible. So you had this boom. of two things happening at the same time in Sweden in in during the nineties was People bought this home PC because it was subsidized and you got your dial up internet. Right.

6:42 And by the way, this is an it just an interesting aside, which is A lot of times d very um seemingly innocuous decisions by governments like hey, we'll give you a discount on computers if you or we'll give you tax free computers if you buy them, you know, we to encourage people to use computers and we'll throw in the internet. Those decisions oftentimes like Uh uh it's They are huge opportunities for people to launch businesses because

7:07 It it you know, there's these incentives and then people Yeah, whether it's like Today it might you know, buy buying an electric car or you know, there's an there's all these incentives around um g b manufacturing and uh at least in the US. And it's it's interesting to think about what was happening in Sweden at the time. Yeah. I think it was I I really think that was part of

7:27 The reason why you look at why Sweden is punching above its weights in terms of kind of unicorn companies is a part of that is because a lot of those founders, if you look at Don Jelec, of course, you know, and yeah, from Spotify or Sebastian Chemkovsky. They were kids when this was happening. So they benefited of having those computers at home that with internet dial-ups, right? So so for sure it was a good thing. It's really, really interesting because you're right, Sweden is a s tiny country that has punched up a low its way. Okay, so you are At Tella to and Meantime, I mean, I know you're paying attention to this whole dot com boom that's happening in California. And

8:05 W when do you remember thinking to yourself, man, this is I I gotta figure out how to get into this thing,'cause you're you're you're a you're a um you know, sort of a middle manager at Tela Two, right? I mean you are In this big corporation and but meantime. You must be noticing something happening, s particularly in California. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know what was interesting because it was so exciting to

8:31 to try out all the new you know, the first, you know, really Internet services like Yahoo and Alta Vista was a bigos. Lycos, exactly. And and all those kind of things, but so exciting. And at the same time, actually there was a dot com boom also in Europe, and particularly in Sweden, there were quite a few Online companies that were set up. In

8:53 at the same time and at some point I realised I'm missing The gold rush. This is the opportunity of the lifetime. Why am I why am I an employee? Of course, yes, I had stock options and I had a get a nice career. I was like getting, you know, increased salary, and it's like this you know, was on a good career path. You're in your early thirties. Yes, exactly. Yeah. And so it's like I'm almost getting too old and it's happening right now. So at some point You know, that was time to decide to to jump ship. Something very

9:23 Um fortuitous in your life happens uh around around this time. I guess this is in sort of in the mid to late nineties. Um Your your

9:33 sort of the head of a division at Tela Two, and I guess You hired this young guy. Name Janus Fries. to to run customer support and he's like twenty one at the time. And um I guess

9:46 But pretty soon you noticed that he was maybe more talented than than just being like a customer support. Agent. Yeah.

9:54 And um it realised pretty quickly that This guy's an outlier and uh is is brilliant. And uh What did you notice about him?'Cause he was like twenty one or twenty two, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, first like he he had, you know, jumped you know, school uh the ninth grade or something because it was bored.

10:11 He was a genius. Yeah, so he then he learned everything by himself and but he was also very quick to understand what's happening online and Um This was just really, really good to to to learn from. So

10:23 Yeah, he was definitely not your typical corporate Person. When did you start to think hey, maybe this guy Janus, Janus, sorry, I'm not pronouncing his nightmare. I'm getting a lot of hate mail from Sweden. That he that maybe

10:37 He was the guy that you could like start something with? Like did you start to talk to him? Would you would the two of you have conversations and say, you know, we really should just come up with something on our own and leave this this corporate job. Yeah, I think th th the was certainly that's what happened. You know, we had a lot of c conversations and For me I was

10:56 kind of much more into my career and and I think he was much freer. And I think it's easier to leave something that is like not a secure thing, but To become an entrepreneur if you do it together with someone else. So You know, I don't know if I Would be by myself would I have done this?

11:12 Let me let me understand. So you were you were about ten years older than than Yannis. He's he's in his early twenties, you're in her early thirties. You were married, I think, at that point already. Yeah. And did you have children? No, no child. Okay. But You know, you're you've g had a pretty s uh significant leadership position now at this by this point at Tele Two. And just to be clear.

11:34 He convinced you f that the both of you should resign and step down and build something together. Without having a specific idea of what that would be? Yeah, yeah, that w th perfectly a accurate. Like I definitely needed someone to nudge me and and and and uh in that direction for sure. I I'm just curious, Nicholas, because I've I don't think I think of you as a risk taker and we're gonna talk about your career, but here it sounds like you were risk more of a risk averse person at the time and I I'm wondering what your father

12:06 for example, thought of this because he had this stable job as an art professor and Sweden, the culture you grew up in, probably encouraged people to get a job and then eventually, you know, stay there for forty years, get a pension, have a nice life, get your six weeks of vacation every year. Um you were essentially throwing that all away. I mean, did anybody Your dad or your mom or anybody say this is not a good idea. Yeah. To be honest, I did not consult my parents. I informed them.

12:37 Um I think they always like believed in me and trusted my decisions. Um But I think it was an interesting conversation to have with my wife because we had Just move to Amsterdam.

12:48 We've been there for a year. Uh a nice place to live. I really think I'm gonna Uh quit my job and Start a company.

12:59 And and and she was the one then who actually You know told me. I think you should do it. Because I don't want When we're older, I don't want you to tell me

13:09 I wish that I tried to become an entrepreneur. So she was probably more like go out and do it, get it out of your system and then you figure it out. Yeah. But we also had such an We realize we could support ourselves on her salary. Yeah. Even if I wouldn't make any money as as an entrepreneur.

13:30 And all right, so so you guys I think Uh from what I read, this is around Christmas ninety nine, early two thousand. You and Giannis. Resign from Tela Two. Yeah. Um he moves into your apartment.

13:43 And In Amsterdam. Um crazy. Like it's you and your wife And like this this like twenty two year old, twenty three year old guys moving in. And

13:55 And you start to brainstorm ideas. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, he moved into a guest room. What To car Kitchen table became the office table, so the the living room became the office.

14:07 And I was it was um what were you guys doing at the kitchen table? Like were you just talking? Were you Writing did you have like a whiteboard with a bunch of ideas? Like what Uh tell me what you were doing. Gee, it was a long time ago. Um So the what we create the first first we kinda thought of like we're gonna have so many ideas, so we're just gonna st do like a like a studio.

14:29 Uh And we call that fast track. And we're gonna come up with a lot of different businesses. And the first thing that we wanted to launch was More of a like a consumer

14:41 Comparison? site not on the price comparison, but reviews for e commerce. Consumer products like uh today you would go to wire cutter or something. Yeah, something like that. And this is like we I mean this is sort of pre social media, but there were I mean

14:56 It was the b kind of beginnings of this peer to peer reviewing, you know, um user sort of generated content very early days. But but I wonder I there's also something else that was going on because I remember this. I did a story on this in the year two thousand. And you can, by the way Anybody listening can just go back. type my name in Napster and you'll find this um when I back the when I used to work for NPR as a radio reporter. I did a story on Napster.

15:23 And Napster was Taking the world by storm. In in in two thousand in ninety nine, two thousand. And you must have been noticing this. I mean all of a sudden Overnight students started to show up to university with a computer

15:37 And a hard drive, not their C Ds anymore. because they could store everything in their computer and shirt. Wha what what did you What did you guys were you do were you guys in an Abster? Yeah, so the kind of one point oh version of the of the web was very much still company to consumers, even like something like Yahoo, there was not a community.

15:58 It's like and I thought that the the interesting thing with Internet when the end users can be connected And that's that's something that you s we felt that was the right thing to do because it's like it was kind of bypassing the corporations and and empowering the end users. That's what we thought was a beautiful thing with internet and and it was yet to be ha happening. When we saw Napster В кормосаюча момент фу резен с район

16:26 That it actually was it worked that you can actually connect And use your own computer as an uploading server. That was fascinating, you're s on a technical level. But more on a social level was what was fascinating is that This was again it was

16:42 Users communicating directly with each other and sharing their content. Which was music, obviously. People were uploading music and then all of a sudden you could get um well, free music, which turned out to be a a a problem. But you could just g people could upload their s their music collection, you could download it and Not have to buy it. Yeah. Completely. We thought this is amazing, but we thought like Why stop there? You can do so much more and This is what the internet should be. It should be peer to peer.

17:12 And We thought it's huge opportunity to take this to the next level to Uh build. Basically A peer to peer network for anyone to

17:23 Search for Any type of rich media content, whether that is Digital photos, digital videos. Shareware. Whatever PDFs.'Cause Napster was limited to music, and you thought, Well, why don't we

17:37 come up with a peer maybe there should be a peer to peer system where you could share everything. Exactly. Alright, so this is really the the moment, right? This is around the s I think spring of two thousand, so five or six months after you guys leave. Your jobs. This is the thing you decide. Let's focus on this. And you're gonna call it kazah. Yes, exactly. And to build it, I guess you

18:00 contracted with some programmers in Estonia uh who who you'd worked with earlier on a project when you were at Tele Two. Uh and and just as an aside, I mean this is just a few years. after the fall of the Soviet Union and And Estonia kind of became this like mini powerhouse of of engineers and programmers who were

18:19 I guess relatively cheap to hire, right? Yeah, they were cheaper, but the reality was like they were excellent. And the g the the core Three k key people. They had

18:30 A company called Blue Moon. And they were just brilliant. So Blue Moon Or the people that Janus and I call when we wanted s to develop Kassam.

18:40 How did you even have Any money. To pay them. I mean you were not independently wealthy at the time. No, uh so we tried to raise money. Um

18:51 Was very hard. We failed. Hard to do from Amsterdam in two thousand. Yeah. And and there were two things that worked against us. One was Something called the dot com crash. Yes. So that's everybody was freaked out. Exactly. So it got worse and worse. No one w really wanted to invest anymore. And the other thing is that

19:09 We were doing something that was similar to Napster. Yeah. Uh and and as you remember that as you and you mentioned that Napster had a lot started to get a lot of legal problems with the record industry. Right. Who would want to be involved in your idea when Napster was getting hammered with lawsuits which uh which eventually would would destroy it. completely. So those were things that worked against us, right? So so but of course we were optimistic we're we're almost almost there. We're gonna we're gonna Um raise money and uh So

19:40 We I think the well the reality was that I used my savings. I had an apartment that had sold So I think they used some of that. to f Find us um Some good friends for mine were kind of

19:54 Uh gave us some Angel My name. Um but it was hard um to get money and and then I ended up doing a little bit of consulting work also on the side, uh just to kind of pay the bills. Yeah, how much money do you d all together, like more than fifty thousand dollars? A hundred thousand dollars? Yeah, probably something like that. That range.

20:15 Um but it was really tight. Money was tight, uh and that was always the thing that was a challenge and and that that's the was the thing that caused stress a lot, like how gonna pay the bill. Yeah. We also hired like two people in Amsterdam. So they came to the interview

20:34 to my apartment. And then when they started to work Um They were a little bit kind of uncomfortable. It's like you know, it's around you know six, seven it's like But because we were like

20:46 Basing in our kitchen and and uh Like Should we continue to work, you know, maybe dinner time, your wife's home. Yeah. Exactly. So that was interesting time. And by the way You're building a product without any business model.

21:00 Well our business model was advertisement. Um So we put in adds, we had banners. You know, uh in in Casar In the software. And it was something and that was something that was like controversial at the time.

21:14 You know, because a lot some of those things were also tracking users' behavior. And at the time people did not like. Um of course now everything you do is being tracked all the time, so now it's okay. But at the time it was like controversial and it was a bit of an issue because when people use like a peer to peer

21:32 Software and then There was advertisement there, there was something that people didn't really like so much, but We actually because our costs were so low. Um We just you know, the advert when it started to to grow with advertisement just we could sustain ourselves actually. Yeah.

21:49 You launch Kazar. in September of two thousand. And this is like You know, back in the Wild West days the internet when people would just put things out there and they would generally spread among hardcore users, you know, the the people were really following the Napster trends and things like that. And from what I understand originally, I mean like I think you you release it

22:11 on a day in September and on day one it gets downloaded like 10,000 times. Which Is really great. for a first day launch in 2000, right? Um But one of the things that I I read was that

22:24 Right off the bat. You asked users not to use it for music. Yes. So exactly. So

22:32 Again, things were quite fluid, but oh Because When we started It's all like well Surely we're not gonna exclude music because it's a general tool.

22:42 But Over the time as we were developing this during the summer Napster got into more and more trouble. They were getting sued by every sing everyone. Every music labeled R I A. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So RAA were suing Napster and they had to kind of

23:01 Some restrictions. So we said, hey There's an opportunity here. Because For us was so obvious that

23:11 You're not gonna put Gnit back in a bottle. Uh music's gonna be online and there just need to be the right solution. And we said that We actually could have that solution. So we went to the local uh kind of music, right? So you know, um

23:27 Yeah, the rights holders. The right holders organization say, Hey There's opportunity here. This actually we can provide, you know, solution to to what Napster's doing where You can actually provide your content online on our on our platform.

23:42 And then you can actually have different business model, you can have paper. play, you can have subscription or advertisement. So you thought you would be sort of a legit version of Napster. Yeah. So what we did it was like when we launched, we like we put up this notice on the h home page.

23:58 Like We're working on a solution with the rights holder record company, stay tuned. So please don't Use this for music. And I guess you guys got a a lawyer. who helped arrange meetings with

24:11 uh representatives from the RIAA and the and the Motion Picture Association of America. In the US you guys. F would fly to the U.S. You'd meet with all these lawyers and kind of make your case. So you flew out to what, New York or Los Angeles? Los Angeles.

24:28 Okay, so tell me about this trip. This is in I think this is in two thousand one. And by this point, by the way, Kaza is exploded, right? Exploding, exploding. Exactly, exactly. Millions of people are using it, and at this point mainly using it to do what? To download illegal music. Music. Yes. So as Snapster got more and more crimpled because of the restrictions, eventually kind of pretty much Close down. Those users were looking for alternatives.

24:54 And it happened to be because I was the best alternative. So we got more and more users. You know, basically got all the adapter users and and then more, I guess. Which was Great, because of course if you providing consumer service

25:09 who doesn't love users, right? So that's that's great. But we're also realising it's like they didn't really do what we asked them to do. Yeah they were sharing music. Alright, so let's get back to your trip. You come out in June of two thousand one. The background is Khazar is the biggest it's basically taken over for where Napster left off. You guys are coming to the US thinking, okay, we're gonna meet with these industry folks and make our case and see if we can collaborate. Exactly. And they were like interested uh to to come up with uh solutions.

25:42 'Cause I think if they understood that the internet on is not gonna go away. That you need to work on solutions. Yeah. But the follow up from them also was then from the l you know, cease and decease letters, right, basically from the lawyers. You were getting cease and desist letters from lawyers at this point. Yes. So that f you know, you had a business meeting, really, really, you know, nice

26:04 Uh and then you know, a bit later you get in kind of a cease and desist letter from the legal department of the same you know, organization or from R. I double A, so the you know, the Record Industry Association of America. Mm. And and meanwhile. While you're in LA. Uh somehow you get a hold of of a document.

26:24 From the RIAA. Essentially Like letting you know that a lawsuit is coming. Yes. Someone mailed us, I think it was, as somehow we got this email with um An internal memo from R I double A. You know, outlining that you know, I think the title was you know, public enemy number one.

26:44 So we didn't just like we of course we speak to our lawyers who then advised us, yeah, they're very likely gonna try to serve you in the meeting. Oh, they were gonna use the meeting to serve you the papers. Yeah, w that's what we thought they would do, right? Or the lawyer thought it was like is is possible. For us this was interesting because we were like wow, this is like uh Grishom book kind of. Not as dangerous, but um the thrill was there for sure. So We didn't show up ourselves to the meeting. So that our our lawyer

27:14 He says, I can produce you my client, but you know, you need to sign something first that you are not gonna be Serving them. We were like you know basically driving around or sitting around, you know, next door trying to not be So we're We kept a really low profile.

27:30 Yeah. So for us was all about not being served while we were there. So you were just kinda evading them. And trying to presumably get out. Go back to Europe. Exactly. So we it's like so then

27:43 Let's not use credit cards. Let's just play. Pay cash. So what we did was like first like Paid cash. hotels and then what hotels in Los Angeles

27:52 Take cash. They're not the nicest hotels. Put it that way. Um But that was fine. We did a few nights and then we went to LAX and We bought ticket like as late as possible for takeoff, right? So that There's no chance that they would have a chance to Pick it up.

28:12 So Yeah, so that's so we we're happy to get out. of US and that was like the last time I was in the US until two thousand and

28:22 Six, I think. Mm-hmm. Wow. Basically head back. And now you are finding yourself in a position that Napster had found itself in with you are s just saddled.

28:36 with lawsuits. They eventually also are gonna file suits against you in Europe. Um And in meantime. You've getting millions of downloads. per week. It be it becomes like one of the world's most popular

28:51 pieces of software, but from what I understand You had no revenue, you had no m I mean Very uh it's some advertising, but really you had no money coming in. I mean, weren't you scared about It was extremely stressful.

29:10 But what we realised A few things, right? One was like well I don't have a lot of assets, right? The only thing we had was our company. And your company was worth nothing at that point, right?

29:22 Exactly. So we realise like we got nothing to lose. That's a pretty interesting thing when you're f you know, when you're like in a battle with someone. That's kind of liberating when you realise that. Yeah. And the other thing was like we realise that These guys are big, big but they're also Really slow.

29:39 One thing that I learned from Um company I worked with uh in in in my first job, one of the kind of the the Phrases was used internally was that

29:51 It's not the big that beats the small, it's the fast that beats the slow. That's kinda what I've got. took on is like we're just gonna be s faster than than them and we have nothing to lose. They have a lot to lose, we have nothing to lose. When we come back in just a moment.

30:06 Nicholas and Janice have so little to lose that they decide to start a whole other company. One that will grow much, much bigger. Than Kazaw. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's 2002, and the recording industry is suing Kaza for enabling internet piracy. And Nicholas and his partners decide that

30:47 Fighting those lawsuits? is fruitless. The record companies that needed to make an example of us, but at some point uh we realized like, you know, we don't want to become martyrs and We don't want to kind of

30:59 prove a point useful to proving a point and and we realise that We had such conviction in peer to peer so at some point we decided You know what? Let's just You know, move to the next chapter. We peer to peer. Let's sell this thing.

31:13 That's exactly. So this is I think in in January of two thousand two. the you you do sell it. Um it's acquired. by uh a company called Charman Networks. Undisclosed price, but but it was not a lot of money. No, nothing really. I mean you know, less than a million.

31:32 Yeah. Um But we didn't know. Um Retain

31:36 Right. So you got so basically you sell Kaza, but but the technology, the peer to peer technology, which is called fast track, right? Yes, exactly. You keep that as your own property. But it's it's amazing. I mean it's just it it's you know, you had at one point, I think the third most popular piece of downloaded software in the world in It sells for Less than a million dollars. So it was a it w and and now the idea I'm imagining Also, the idea behind selling it was you thought well maybe these lawsuits will go away.

32:09 Yeah, so so this of course become a problem, you know, l uh because of The other side R A, M P A They say well these guys now You're trying to do a maneuver to get away from this. Yeah. Essentially did not get you out of the lawsuit. It didn't matter that you sold it. You were still being sued left and right, and we'll get come back to that'cause that that that that features later. But You guys sell this thing, right, for very little.

32:35 And Um but but it seems like you already you and you and Janice. I keep saying Janice and Janice and I'm sorry, uh Janice if you're listening. I think it either works, yeah. Um But you guys already are saying, Okay. We did this.

32:52 We still have this peer to peer technology. Let's think about the next thing. That we want to build? Yeah. Um I mean I guess at this point you were in

33:01 You're still in Amsterdam. I think at that point I'm actually moved to Stockholm, yeah, it was back in Copenhagen where it's from and our developers were in Estonia and we had one person in Amsterdam. Okay.

33:14 So you were distributed, um and I guess you're Calling each other all the time. Yeah. And That

33:24 That sparks an idea. Tell me tell me about About how it sparks an idea. So you have to remember Fully distributed. Really

33:35 Cash poor Um saving money was an important thing. Because we were calling each other. And um B back when I was at Tele Two

33:44 One project that we were doing back in I guess ninety nine. was trialing voice over IP. VOIP voice over Internet Protocol. You could get VOIP and it sucked. It's really, really sucked. So the conclusion back in like in ninety nine was It's not that great.

34:06 But then I thought like Now we're in two thousand and two, surely things moved on, and the other thing was happening now was also the kind of enabling technology trend was uh broadband. You know, we started to have broadband at home through your cable TV or whatever. So uh surely We can use

34:27 Engineers hey, wouldn't we set up Voice over IP so we can use that between ourselves. So you asked one of your engineers, hey, can you set this up so we don't have to pay telephone bills? Completely. And it turned out that it was really complicated. So if you were like skilled engineer, you could do it, right? But then

34:47 The other result when we started using it that Pretty crappy voice quality. So It wasn't very successful.

34:57 was travelling. Um Uh as you know, like the great thing in Europe is that it's easy to travel between different countries. So you take your mobile phone travel to another country and still use it, which was amazing. The problem is that the roaming fee was like very very expensive. So the mobile operators really took advantage of roaming because essentially

35:20 to cost to produce a phone call when whether you're roaming or not is kind of the same. Right. But it was an opportunity for the phone companies to charge Like extra money. And that was something that was like thinking about as an issue. And Then we had another kind of mega trend that was happening was Wi Fi. Yeah. Right. You started to have Wi Fi everywhere. And then you also started to have this PDAs, personal digital assistance. You know, remember the compact IP um

35:48 Pompilots and Pompilot, exactly. Ironically, Microsoft was the head of the curve. Yeah, pocket PC. So some point we started to figure out hey there's no opportunity here.

36:01 To build you know, you take your Pocket PC. The killer app for this would be voice, so that you could use You access this wifi global wifi signal everywhere. And then you connect

36:15 And make voice Calls over the Internet. And provide, you know, free internet telephony. J just to be clear, the idea was, hey, let's piggyback on these existing personal devices people are carrying, and particularly this Microsoft one, where it already is kind of like has all you know, it's it's a handheld device. It just doesn't have phone.

36:35 But we can basically create an application where users could use it as a free telephone. Completely. What I'm curious about, I mean it this this is now two thousand two, you're digging into a very complex question,'cause it's not yet w what it would become, which of course was Skype, was not yet It wasn't fully formed how it would be used. Like initially you're thinking it's gonna be on these PDAs, these personal devices and so on.

37:02 And and that's not what happened as we know, but Just as an aside, I mean, by b I I know around September of that year of two thousand two You got a little bit of seed funding. Two hundred and fifty thousand dollars sounds like a lot, but it's for what you are gonna do is nothing. Almost nothing. And I I from what I I've read It was quite hard for you to find anybody willing to finance this. Yes.

37:25 So we We were We thought like we we had this amazing business, what we're called Skyper. Because it was peer to peer in the sky, right? Uh on the white. Peer to peer in the sky. Sky pur peer to peer. Exactly. And and

37:40 But it needed all these different s stages. And We got Bill Draper. To invest. Um Bill Draper kind of a legendary Investor.

37:50 Yeah, so so Bill Draper is like you know, he's one of the I guess first generation of of Silicon Valley venture capitalists. Yeah. And He had someone working for him, Howard Hartenbaum.

38:03 Out of Luxembourg to you basically do like early stage investments. And how it was like um Looking around and He got hold of me. And I was very suspicious.

38:16 Because So you have to remember this was still we were trying to avoid being served. So we were like hyper Uh oh, like this is lawyers again playing dirty tricks, so like still try to Yeah, so it's like this is like maybe this is a way to try to serve us through this potential investor. So we were like

38:37 Extremely normally if you're an entrepreneur looking for money, you would be like, yes, please jumping at it. Yeah, you were like set up the meeting with with the V C who wants to But I was a little bit more than a little bit. We were extremely difficult to

38:51 to get hold of for that reason. But it turned out to be completely l legit and Bill Draper, he said. Like I know nothing about the technology. А но дати телеком індустрії із юч.

39:05 And the dinosaurs. also know that you guys had success with Casa You created something that вот became really big. You did not make money from it, so you must be extremely hungry for success. Yeah.

39:20 All right, so you've got to start you got s a little bit of cash to start building this thing. Yeah. This is gonna take longer than than building the the technology for Kazah. It's more c i i it was it's interesting because kaza sounds very complicated. I mean sharing files, but actually it turns out that trying to to transfer voice in real time over the internet is quite challenging. This is not an easy

39:49 Was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars enough money? To develop this thing? No, but I think we raised a bit more. Um but it wasn't It was Still

40:00 In the hundreds of thousands, I think. But uh during the time again this was created so much stress for me When I could not pay our developers. I I saw that development actually came to a halt at a certain point in the summer of two thousand three. Yeah. It just stopped because you couldn't pay the Estonian developers. How did you I mean, as you as you sort of start to run out of money in the summer of two thousand three

40:25 What did you do? Are you just dialing anybody you could to c to to to see if you could get money? Yeah, so we we we went around In Europe we went to kind of all the V Cs And we're going to be able to do it Try to

40:39 Raised money. And were suc unsuccessful. And we thought that these VCs there they don't get it. And the model for European VCs at the time was to Invest in Copycat of a US Internet company.

40:57 And use the language barrier as a as a moat. So you kind of was really g smart to invest in, say, a German copycat of eBay because eBay would probably buy them. Or or a Nordic version of of uh Amazon That was the model.

41:15 P pretty much. And we had this like um plan, we're gonna change global telephony. using peer to peer technology, which no one else had done. But of course the other thing that May them also not wanting to invest. So you can understand that not like a V C would not want to invest. Yeah. Every month was about scraping money. But it's also

41:40 Made us. Super lean, right? We did not Growth organizations, we realise we could just get Things done with very few people. So okay, so it took basically

41:52 A little more than a year and a half. Of of developing the technology. And it launches You release a beta version. on august twenty ninth, two thousand three.

42:04 By this point when you when you release a beta version The original idea was let's put this on like these these personal devices, these like palm pilot type devices. But by by the time you released it That that was out the window. Okay, that vision was great, but how do we get there? It's just not gonna happen from day one. So we needed to do things in different stages. So the st The first stage was

42:29 Skype four. P C They'd have to plug in a microphone. They'd have to buy it. And this was the thing that w the big unknown for us, because most computers did not have A microphone, why would you? Yeah.

42:44 So when we launched it was always the challenge. Would people really be able to use it if they wanted to, maybe they download the software, it cannot make a call. And another thing we do not know, will people really want to sit in front of the computer to have a phone call? Because Uh you know, otherwise, you know, people probably had a cordless telephone for their fixed telephony or they had a mobile phone, now they have to be

43:06 in front of the computer, even you didn't have video, right, when we started, but you're sitting in front of your computer to make a phone call. It turned out that Піпол абсолютні ну проблем. to do that and people had absolutely no problem To figure out a way to connect А майкрофон

43:23 And why was that? Because The desire for people to connect with the loved ones, with their friends. You know, relatives. Or for business across the world for free. was a pretty big desire. So

43:36 People had no problem kind of to sit in front of the computer and to make those calls. And what made this so Kind of. perfect in a lot of ways was the v the the built in virality, right? Which is like You to download Skype.

43:51 And then if you wanted to talk to your friend around the world, they also had to download it. Once both of you downloaded it for free, you could just talk. One hundred percent. That that built in virality was like like a really fundamental uh growth driver because You probably have like

44:08 Five The ten people that you speak to regularly, whether you know friends or family. And that's really how it spread. And just to kind of c clarify, I mean This was free. I mean, this is the second business you create where

44:24 The product is Which is Great in terms of getting a lot of users. But

44:31 Uh but could also create a long term problem, which is you you don't have any money in. Yeah. You know, one thing we figure out we're not the only one figure that one out. If you wanna have Like a viral consumer

44:46 online servers you should make take away all frictions for people to use it, right? Make it free. Yeah. Now, to your point, where do you have your revenue? Because having very low costs and you can have a very small overhead because we're small, scrappy bootstrapped organization. We did not did not need to make a lot of money to cut cover overhead. But the business model was always gonna be

45:08 a premium offer eventually. Exactly. And that we thought we launched that later on, um but first we need to get the free service out. But We were pretty confident that we would be able to have a a premium var service because There will be a lot of phone calls that you want to make that are not

45:27 On Skype. So The idea that we had that we launched was Skype out. Meaning that you called from Skype to a public telephone.

45:37 Number. That was not a Skype number. Exactly. So I could call you from Skype. to any phone number in the world. But

45:46 The the pitch to consumer was that you make a global long distance phone call or international phone call But you're paying a local rate. So You know, think about that if you you say that you're like you're in San Francisco

45:59 And you have relatives in Australia. Yep. That's a pretty expensive phone call. But For your Australian relative to make a phone call to their neighbor.

46:10 In Sydney Is it You know, pretty cheap phone call because it's local, right? Yeah. So what we did we used The internet to transport this cold from wherever from you in in San Francisco.

46:23 And then have a local agreement with a local telecom operator in Australia to connect locally. So we can sell local phone calls globally. Yeah. We thought it was pretty disruptive. offering in the world of telecommunication. Alright, so you launch it in August of two thousand three, soft launch really launches in like September of two thousand three.

46:45 By April two thousand five you got a hundred million downloads of this thing. So this is This is no joke. I mean I remember and and I I know a lot of people listening can remember using it. I mean I lived I was a foreign correspondent at the time. It was like a lifesaver because I could go in internet cafe in you know, the Balkans or in in the Middle East somewhere and and use it. My mom Who traveled around the world with a backpack.

47:11 Uh at the time would be That's how she communicated with people. So it was really an amazing product, but I still have to think that even then Even as you get a hundred million downloads. In April two thousand five

47:25 You're not a profitable business. We we raised money, so this time Yeah, so no one wanted to invest. When we launched In in in September two thousand three

47:37 Um And it's really takes off virally immediately, right? And then Now we got phone calls, now we get emails. Now people are saying oh investors, yeah. So uh you get you know several US V Cs contacting us. flying over, offering us nice dinners.

47:57 So we managed to raise money. I think almost twenty million dollars in in March of two thousand and four. Yeah, that's a B round. So we did an A round of like I think I don't know, it's like three million or something. Um Dollars. Then we did a B round already like six months later. So you didn't have to worry about profitability essentially. But but what was interesting though is that

48:17 We Launched the paid service. I don't know, fifteenth of May or something in Two thousand and four. Yeah.

48:25 The beautiful thing with this was that it was prepaid. So you When the buying those Skype out credits. You uploaded ten dollars, twenty dollars, whatever you wanted, and you had your credits that you could use.

48:39 Calls. So it's like a traveler's check or a gift card. Essentially people are prepaying for something that They're not gonna use right away. No, exactly. And a lot of people picked up on this. I think kinda.

48:51 five, six percent or something of users. It was actually very, very popular. So we started collecting a lot of cash. So We didn't really have to touch that. money that the twenty million that we raised in a series B, we didn't really have to touch it that much actually.

49:08 All right, so you have uh uh you've got this thing is is growing. There's a lot of excitement around it. Meantime, um, you do get served with papers. From this previous lawsuit, the Kaza lawsuit, like somebody finds you. I guess you were in London. Yeah. And and and like you step outside And uh there's like s a bunch of like

49:30 Waiting to serve you papers. Yeah. So that was so We moved to London because we thought uh launching a global online company, internet company from

49:41 From Europe, London is the best place. So we move there. And I was walking out. With my wife Uh I think it was a Monday

49:51 In the morning. you know, stepping out the door, you know, uh talking to each other as you usually do. And Then someone comes up And uh quote my name.

50:02 And I kind of like figure out, you know, in a split second, okay, this is the moment. Uh so I start running. Um Um Because I didn't want to be served and I started running. Um I wasn't very fit at the time because I was like an entrepreneur trying you know, working very hard and and not exercising. Eating pizza. Yeah, exactly. And definitely not going to the gym. Um

50:24 And But then the Then someone else steps in in front of me and then there's a motorcycle coming, so there's all these people from all different Wow. This is like a movie. Yes. So I try to kind of You know, I try to change direction and of course a slip.

50:39 And then of course you're being served as you see in the movies, like you know slapping the papers on on you and and you get this, you know, thick Pile of papers with a lawsuit. And my wife. was really angry with them, it's like trying to defend me and um And but it's then it's done, it's happened very quickly.

50:57 But that's one of those moments like it's uh You get a lot of Yeah, adrenaline and then it's like, you know, you're you're scared and it's like what's happening. Because we that was the moment that we wanted to avoid, but we knew it would kind of happen at some point.

51:13 When we come back in just a moment, Nicholas is pursued not just by lawyers, but by executives from some of the biggest tech companies in the world. Who are looking to acquire Skype. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to how I built this. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz.

51:48 So it's 2005, and depending on the moment you ask, Nicholas is having either a very good or a very bad year. On the one hand, he's still facing onerous lawsuits from his time at Kazah. But at the same time, Skype is exploding in popularity, and giant tech companies are starting to take notice. I mean you knew. That the big tech companies Yahoo, AOL, Microsoft Google.

52:14 They were looking at what you were doing. And they could easily build something. to replicate it and potentially Crush you. Were you were you getting nervous at all? Yeah, so we

52:27 You know, if you remember in the time back in the time. Yahoo had Yahoo Messenger, which was Awesome. Uh a lot of people use that. You had A Well with A Well Incent Messenger and you had Microsoft with Microsoft MSN

52:40 Messenger. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But they had like pretty much everyone online. Um So we were always nervous, like when are they gonna wake up?

52:52 And compete because if they're gonna crush us or not. And then we got this message that Yahoo was building something. Mm. Okay, so let's talk about them. And we kind of

53:02 So okay. What are you doing? Maybe we can we do something together. Yeah. And then we find out that it's not only a uh Yahoo, it's also A well.

53:12 And Microsoft and even Google. are kind of looking at Building their versions of of of Skype. S okay.

53:22 That's not great. So we speak to All of those companies and Ask them hey Why don't we do a partnership? We provide a version of Skype that is integrated into their messenger. And then we charge you for that.

53:45 But also If you invest into our company, we have a stronger relationship. So we thought that could be good because then we can get like a a big sibling to protect us from from the others. We can get more distribution, we can get capital and we take out one potential Competitor.

54:04 But the interesting thing is that the answer from all of those companies was No, we're not interested in that. We were already building it. But We would be very interested to have a conversation about

54:16 A much closer relationship, i.e. To acquire ours. Buying you. Yes. Now we started this company not to be acquired because with Cazar we had to

54:29 get out of it. So this at this time we're building something Yeah. And there should be a company online that is like dominating online telephony or communication or real time communication And that's something that we want to do.

54:44 So y you you've basically all of these suitors coming in. Um I mean what I mean, what an amazing position to be in, right? Because uh the more people want to talk to you The higher the price goes. Uh and then in addition to AOL and Microsoft and Google uh you get contacted by eBay as well. So I mean a lot of heavy hitters interested in you at this point. One hundred percent. Yeah.

55:08 So we use this competitive situation to try to Negotiate and see who's gonna be willing to pay. more. At the same time we were not committed to selling because we said Where we're not really for sale because we're raising money. You want to be independent, but

55:24 You know, and there's a few others who are interested. We decided to run a process, but we also run a process to race Growth capital to stay independent. So You know, there's gonna have to be a really high premium. And Through this process, you know, we ended up with ebay coming up with it like a really attractive

55:42 Offer Two point six billion and a five hundred is thinking okay this could be a great way for people to use our platform. You know, they can communicate through

55:57 I mean not a not a bad idea for for from eBay's perspective. But they're gonna pay a lot. I mean it was gonna be up uh I mean with all the incentives. You're paying over three billion dollars for this thing that you just launched two years before. Yeah, it it's it's it was unreal. You know, be clear, it was unreal. And you have to put this in a context Of Two thousand and five, right? It's like

56:19 There was a few years post dot com crash. The largest Um Internet M and A. Before us was PayPal.

56:28 to eBay, right? One point five billion? Right. And So this was like two X. It's amazing. And then you had YouTube. YouTube was also one point six billion or something like that. Also the same year.

56:42 uh with Google. So this was the the largest Um Acquisition. Acquisition, online acquisition post dot com for the internet company globally. So I mean you would be a foolish to reject that. And and you didn't, of course. They bought it. Um, and and overnight, I mean, you

57:02 Had gone from just a few months earlier. Freaking out about whether you could make payroll. Yeah. Being a multi millionaire. Yeah. No no it was it was it was uh

57:12 certainly a life changing event, not only for for us, but also for you know a lot of our team, right? Bec we had A bunch of these Estonian uh programmers had options. Yeah, totally. So there was a lot of people who who benefited. Uh But we wanted to continue to build. So we were Happy to stay on

57:33 I stayed on as a CO. for a few years because we had these all these ideas and the vision how to scale it. Yeah. Meantime, let's just go back to the lawsuits. there's this lawsuit that's still hanging over you. And I guess that year so so two thousand five you were you you guys sold to eBay

57:52 You're working at eBay in two thousand six, and I think In two thousand six you You and But new owner of Kazaf a g you agree to settle.

58:03 with with with all of the various companies filing lawsuits against you in part because now you had a you had a bunch of money. I mean you had to actually pay some money, right, to settle this lawsuit. Yeah. So in parallel when we were negotiating With eBay we work We're not a set of lawyers trying to settle. With um suitors with with M P A and R I double A.

58:26 Before the transaction was announced. Because we knew of course that when the transaction's gonna be announced. We can have to pay them something, right? And then but we didn't manage to do that. It's like Time was running out.

58:39 So we had to pay them Uh to settle. But that wasn't a hard thing to do. Because uh you know, to get that problem to walk away was was uh It was pretty nice.

58:50 All right, so that goes away, but you do have to put some money into it. One one interesting thing, and I don't want to get into this too deeply because of just because of there's so much you've done, but While you are Running Skype, you and Janice start um two things. You start a a venture f capital f firm. Atomico together, and you also begin working on another

59:11 Business. called juiced, which is gonna be I guess the best parallel is to to today is it was going to be like Hulu, what Hulu became, which was a a you know, video uh platform for well, for watching content. Yeah, I think um we had this vision that you could use uh just peer to peer for so many different things. Right. And uh we built a team for that and uh again I was like CEO for Skype, I was you know full time there.

59:40 So we hired people, you know, a management team, really, really good people by the way. I think that It's hard as you a founder And you

59:51 start a company but you don't have time to run it, you have other people running it. I think it's just you don't have that connectivity, I think it's harder to be successful. You can be successful, but It's harder. Yeah. Um

1:00:04 That company juice eventually would not it w it wouldn't work out. Um And it and it it makes sense now because your whole the whole concept begins with this peer to peer platform. It makes sense that you're gonna try and come up with all these different ways to use it, right? You start with Kaza, then you go to Skype. Then you go to juiced now. In two thousand eight, concurrently when Juice was

1:00:27 Being built. You and Janice create a company call RDIO. RDO. Which which essentially is the first version of what Spotify would become. This was gonna be

1:00:39 A A streaming. Music service. Yeah. Um tell me why I mean look. again you've had massive success and you've had a huge impact on on our culture globally.

1:00:52 But why do you think Ardyo Didn't work. Cause it came out before Spotify started. Well it it it's kind of the same time and and I thought RD was really really good.

1:01:04 User experience And We launched in the US like a year before Spotify. So we had that market. We could have Taken it.

1:01:14 Why did not take off You know, I don't really know exactly the answer, but I think one reason was that I think we learned through Both Cassa and Skype that We didn't want to pay for user acquisition and like that should just be viral.

1:01:27 There was no d there was really little virality in it, so that was one of the issues. So um I think Spotify No the paid for users. They were more aggressive about about user acquisition and spending money on marketing. Exactly. Both that and and brilliant in terms of building relationships with some of the big, you know, online companies like Facebook and others.

1:01:48 So um Spotify created an amazing kind of aura around them because it wasn't available in the US, but first was only available in Sweden. And become a very, very popular you know, filling the void after after Cassar and after kind of Pirate Bay. Uh and then

1:02:07 You know, people just waited up for that to take off. You were out of by two thousand seven out of ebay you or and and and done with Skype and that was it. You were finished. Um but Um remarkably you would return

1:02:23 to Skype in in two thousand nine. uh eBay uh apparently they you know they they kinda wrote it down because they they w they w it was not a successful product for them. Skype was not, and they decided to sell it For I guess they they sold it for They sold a majority share of it for about two billion dollars to some investors.

1:02:43 Um and You and Janice tried to buy it back when you heard that eBay wanted to sell it. Um And so but I think I think you guys got a fourteen percent stake in this new in in Skype. I guess essentially were able to get Echoe

1:02:58 In Skype that you had already sold. For a you know, essentially a fraction of the cost. Yeah. And it was risky because you had to show that it was I mean, eBay could not successfully make it work. Um But w I mean you guys must have had confidence that you could

1:03:15 Help. Turn this around. Yeah, I mean Skype was doing well, right? Um What has happened. During

1:03:22 The years at eBay You know, the company got as typically happens in really large corporations, they just hire a lot of people, becoming too much of a corporate culture. So we thought

1:03:33 This company under private ownership. And you've refocused it. has a huge potential. Yeah. So that's that's what we kind of got in you know, fast forwarding here. But then

1:03:49 It gets acquired by Microsoft in two thousand eleven, eighteen months later. Yeah, so Microsoft came along and makes an offer that you know the investors w um Um for eight and a half billion.

1:04:03 For eight point five billion so Not only do eBay do great, but all the investors I mean eighteen months later. Have a massive return. Your your fourteen percent stake. was probably comparable to the original.

1:04:18 sale that that that you had when it was three billion. Yeah. It's um amazing. So Now you are out of the the business.

1:04:28 You know, you really, I think After that. Period of time. We're focused. Primarily on being a VC.

1:04:37 Um But After the end of RDO. Was there any talk of okay, well let's start another company or at that point were both of you sort of Thinking.

1:04:47 Okay. We we can we can focus on being investors. Yeah, so I think f for me

1:04:53 There was A nied for better investors in y in Europe. Yeah. Um You know, back then we're talking about two thousand and two to two thousand and

1:05:04 seven whatever the time period There was one place in the world That you had to be if you were serious about building a tech company. which is where you are. Yeah. San Francisco Silicon Valley. That was the only place in the world, right? And what we did we proved that it was possible to build a global

1:05:23 tech leader from Europe. And we were not just like super special, we were not just like the exception that proved the rule. You know, we were just normal people. My conviction was There's no reason why there will not be other companies on the scale of Skype or even bigger coming out of Europe.

1:05:41 So A Atomica was built with a mission To disrupt The monopoly of Silicon Valley. Hm. I'm I'm curious just to get your thoughts on

1:05:52 Skype today because Microsoft clearly has leaned into Teams, which is its competitor to Zoom. And there was a lot of talk during the pandemic about how it was a moment for Skype and and Zoom kind of overshadowed it. But what's your sense? I mean do you feel like Do care? I mean, does it have any emotional resonance with you or any thoughts about their how they how they're what they've done with this thing that you built. The first time when when we sold

1:06:19 Skype, I was so emotionally attached to it. Um You know, to the extent that was part of buying it back, right? When Microsoft acquired it I did not have that emotional attachment because I've moved on.

1:06:32 Yeah. You know, they obviously paid a lot of money for it. And and of course they could have done If you ask me. They could have done so much more with it. you know, they they they kinda I think they missed an opportunity to to make it really, really big.

1:06:47 But I'm not I'm not so sad about I mean it's like We had a reunion, twenty year reunion. since we launched and it was just great to see people and Амсо проу

1:06:57 What we achieved. One thing but we did was that we looked at what is the Skype effect. And We looked at how many companies have been started from Skype alumni.

1:07:08 And it turned out there's been nine hundred companies started by Skype alumni, but also the second generation. So so that effect is like that's just a direct effect. So and the other effect that Skype have had on Europe is that It It created this belief among a lot of entrepreneurs that they can build the next Skype. Yeah.

1:07:29 When you think about All of these things that happened, right? I mean you you left Tele two you know, on the prompting of Janice and You could I me we you know, today you could have been all you know, almost sixty and you could have been r close to retirement and you get your

1:07:46 party at Telatou and you'd you know your whatever, Swedish telecom and you you know, you'd have your boat and and you'd enjoy you'd have a good life. You'd probably have a very nice life. And that was one path you could have taken, but you took this path and obviously had massive impact with the things that you helped to Found and build.

1:08:07 How much of of of that journey do you attribute to um the work that the grind and how much do you think had to do with just luck and chance? You know, that's a very good question, right? The reality is that being at the right place at the right time is pretty critical. And You know, the reality with starting companies is that it's very, very few companies that are successful.

1:08:29 And you know, the companies I've been part of starting One became really successful but no money. One became a big home run, and two others You know, we burnt a lot of money.

1:08:41 But that's still Pretty good record. It's not basketball when you have like a you know a forty percent field goal. Uh it's more like uh Soccer, right? It's like you you have to take a lot of shots on goal and most of them you're gonna miss. But you have to keep shooting and um

1:09:00 That's just kind of the the statistics of being an entrepreneur. That's Niklas Sandstrom. Co founder of Kaza. And Skype.

1:09:09 By the way, shortly after I interviewed Nicholas, Microsoft announced that it would permanently retire Skype and shift its remaining users over to Microsoft Teams. Skype will ring for the last time. On May fifth. twenty twenty five. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And if you're interested in insights, ideas, and lessons from some of the world's greatest entrepreneurs, please sign up for my newsletter at gyros.com or on Substack.

1:09:43 This episode was produced by Chris Massini with music composed by Ramtine Erablui. It was edited by Neva Grant with research help from Catherine Cypher. Our engineers were Patrick Murray and Jimmy Keeley. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, JC Howard, Casey Herman, Imon Mahani, Sam Paulson, Carrie Thomson, John Isabella, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening. how I built this.

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