The playbook for building high talent density teams | Adam Ward, Head of Talent at Cursor

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/290f2afa83c92391

You have built and are known as someone that can build the most elite high talent density teams. Let's start with how people do it wrong. Something you call the funnel of doom. Companies think about recruiting like a funnel. I am going to reach out to a hundred people. 20% of those are all five. By definition, that is not the top 20%.
That is just the twenty people who you caught on a bad day. The way we all recruit is we kinda weed people out at each stage and we hire the remainder. In your mind, like hey, there are fifty people in the world who can do this.
Let's go find those 50 people. And you relentlessly pursue you focus your energy on activating those people.
Not trying to find them out of the
funnel of doom. The mistake that most companies make is they'll say, Hey Lenny
Who's the best product engineer you know? That is the worst question you can ask. The better question to ask is, hey, Lenny, of all the product engineers you've worked with, who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative with designers? Or
Who can translate a framework into a product?
Better than anyone you've ever seen. When you're looking for that first recruiting hire, is there anything you think is important to look for? Recruiters are excellent at ninety to hundred ten percent capacity and are terrible outside of that. If they only have half a rec load, they kinda like are useless. But they're kinda great at this like edge of adrenaline rush.
Busy?
You wanna find those people. What are some things you've learned about building incredible teams, keeping people working for you over the long term? When you look at candidate satisfaction scores, the number one thing that's always there is
Today my guest is Adam Ward.
Adam is known in the valley as the most effective recruiting leader.
At building elite high talent density teams.
He co founded an independent recruiting firm called Growth by Design.
Which cursor acquired fully last year.
Which is not something that you often hear.
And is a testament to how good he and his team are and how important talent is right now in today's market.
Anima is now head of talent at Cursor, helping them scale and build one of the most talent dense teams in the world.
Prior to starting his own firm, Adam led global recruiting at Pinterest, growing the company from 200 to over 2,000 employees. And before that, he led a global team of 65 recruiters across 10 offices at Facebook, helping them scale Facebook's tech org from 1,000 to over 10,000 employees.
If hiring the best people is your number one priority.
As it should be.
This conversation will open your mind up to what it takes to do that.
Adam gets super tactical and extremely specific, and you're going to thank me for inviting Adam on this podcast to share all of this incredible advice. A huge thank you to Brie Wolfson, Janet Fishburg, Jill Macri, Mike Joyner, and Tim Kendall for suggesting topics for this conversation.
Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lenny's productpass.com.
For a free year.
of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the world, available exclusively to Linese newsletter subscribers.
With that I bring you
Adam Ward.

Adam, thank you so much.
for being here. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks so much for having me. It's a pleasure.
You've been doing this
For twenty years now hiring, recruiting, building teams.
How different is the market we're in?
Today. How how m how crazy is the market the hiring market we're in today?
If there's a scale, it's an eleven.
Um
But yeah, I do think there's like there are
Similarities to the some other markets we've been in over time.
You know, you mentioned the the years, like there was a moment in time where
A lot of companies were moving to mobile.
And there was like there literally was not
A mobile engineer like an IOS engineer was not a thing.
You know, and uh but there was the scramble for talent.
to
you know, build your mobile app and things like that. Like there there was this moment that like that was a thing.
And
It has like some
uh similarities to that m market in moment.
I think that the the really the difference here is like
Everything here is like just so compressed.
So that mobile moment was
Two years.
Maybe
You know, where like there's no mobile engineers and then
They're like mobile boot camp, mobile engineer boot camps, and all these things. And like now we're in like
Days.
We're in weeks, you know, there there are no months or year measures right now.
Um and so that what but what makes this like feel very different.
The other thing that feels very different about this market is there's
Many people doing extremely well. It's the most competitive
As you said, eleven out of ten for
Specific roles.
A lot of other people are just really struggling, having a really hard to
Time fighting jobs. Yeah, it's a tale of two cities, really.
Um, you can read uh back to back headlines of
Yeah, NBA
salary offers.
To a
New grad PhD
And the next line being
A blue chip company laying off
Ten percent of workforce.
Yeah, like how can both of these things be
Bi true, and you see this shift.
of how companies are doing work and getting work done.
And I really believe we're in this like moment where
There's this like resettlement.
Of talent.
And labour.
And how work gets done.
And I really believe that there this like it'll there will be a resettlement and there'll be a shift and this will this will come back, but I feel like we're in like
Yeah.
One of the large gaps.
Of those
worlds right now that I believe will and I want to believe will come back closer together.
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What are roles that are kind of trending up and the most in demand right now? And what are maybe less and less in demand?
And in you have a really unique perspective because not only
You're a cursor now, but before that you had your own independent agency working with a ton of different companies.
So you got to see across a lot of different

What's kind of trending up? What's most in demand and what's maybe softer now?
Yeah, I think one thing that's really in demand is this
And there's lots of different names for it, but there's like for deployed engineer
Just like
Technical
person who can partner with a sales team, partner with a customer to deploy
What is a
you know, it can be for like some audiences in a company a very
technical and maybe overwhelming.
product or helping companies think about moving from token maxing to like
uh optimizing, maxing to optimizing. And so that's like a a I think a new
scale as CFOs start to get the bill coming in.
Um, you know, the companies are able to help partner with them to think about what's the the best solution for that. So that's a really unique scale because you are
You're deeply technical yourself, you understand the product.
But you can also
uh walk into a room with executives and leaders and help conjugate some of that.
And then even deploy that help them deploy that into their workforce. So I think that's like a a real supply demand.
Issue right now.
I think maybe the thing that is waning
I would say is like
The specialized
Technical person.
The person who is I o you know, it's'cause I think you almost see this like squeezing together of
engineer product design in some ways where
We would love a designer who could actually do fur be more of like a design engineer.
Right. And we want that like super deep technical engineer that has a little bit more stronger product sense.
And so you kinda see the so I think the people who are
Maybe like very narrow, very deep.
In like overly, um
specializing a way.
Like in like in the same way.
Along that vein might also be like the new grad.
He just hasn't had enough like experience.
uh to be able to do that where
A
a a product like cursor or others can
Do some of that work right now.
This is extremely interesting. I I haven't heard it put this way before.
Interestingly with the FDE role.
It feels similar to the mobile.
uh example you shared where not a very few people have actually been for deployed engineers.
Uh so what what's kind of the the um
I don't know the look of a person that can become an F D E.
Yeah, I actually think it is that
engineer. It is that person who maybe was like a full stack engineer.
In like a
Uh three to five years ago.
Is now maybe actually that four deployed.
Engineer.
Right. And so
Um and you actually kinda you talk to some of the these folks and they actually like kinda unlocked something.
In them. Like they're kinda like moving out of the terminal.
And moving in into like the company, you know, and into the customers and clients and for the right person that like that's super energizing kinda unlocks another chapter.
Or like an maybe uh uh
unexpected chapter in your career.
Yeah, that's interesting. I was expecting you to say AI researchers, so this is interesting. And imagine because there's not as many of those roles. I think so. I think I think it's just a that's a very defined set.
Mm.
And so I feel like it's a very clear
bracket of what that is and how many there are and where they are.
And I think that's like I I think that sometimes the bigger challenges are the nebulous
Things or the new
The very new things.
uh that I think are sometimes just as challenging as the scarcity ones of an AI.
ML engineer.
Just as a final question along these lines, what about just uh the core product design engineering roles?
Are those kind of steady as they've been, is one increasing, decreasing.
How's that looking? I think they're hot. I think they're but I think there's you probably see a lot of conversation out there around this, you know, where
I think we're getting a little bit back in a good way to the craft.
Of things?
And so if you think about what AI can do
In the design world
Uh, it can also create a lot of slop in its own way.
And so
I'm an optimist. Just don't
You'll you'll probably hear that throughout. Same. I think and I think it's just a a better way to live. Um but
I think what I will hopefully help us get back is to like to the craft of what we do.
You know, and maybe a an appreciation.
For it.
And I see that in the design world.
too.
And is that kind in saying I Cs are more in demand and especially I Cs that are have good taste, good judgment, is that kinda saying.
Yeah, I think like, you know, we've seen this for maybe the last twelve the rise of the power I see.
Yeah. Um and uh the recognition and appreciation for that work.
I think has like come like almost in in a full circle moment for them.
But like I think taste.
Decision making, problem solving.
These these characteristics, curiosity.
Um in all the good ways that they are coming back up to the surface.
Awesome. Okay.
So let me f
Let me kind of zoom out and frame the conversation that uh I'm hoping we have uh broadly.
You have built and are known as someone that can build the most.
elite high talent density teams. So many people kept telling me you were
The person that
Does this better than anyone else.
Uh this is every company's and founders' dream, build the highest talent talent density team.
So
I'm gonna go through this in a sequence.
Uh
Let's start with
Something you call the funnel of doom.
hiring.
Talk about the funnel of doom. What is the funnel of doom? Yeah.
Uh, and this is a concept I got a um
Uh
Recognize uh my very first
As an intern actually in nineteen ninety eight.
At a company called Trilogy.
which is a but somewhat of an infamous company around recruiting and
kind of where I learned a trade.
Uh my very first manager, Jeff Daniel.
Uh he we did this campus tour around the country.
talking to C S students and that's where I first heard
the term he coined that term. So
I had to acknowledge that. But I think uh well the final deal forever
Uh almost forever as you think about the recruiting history, companies think about recruiting like a like a funnel.
You know, it may be akin to a sales funnel.
Right, where they think about
different stages, pastor rates, and things like that.
And when you think about how most companies have recruited
Over these last several decades.
It's really been
Can't come from p kind of three buckets. They c they apply, they are
activated or sourced or they're referred.
But if you kinda think about like
for b a lot of companies who think about
Talent density.
Typically referrals and
sourcing or activation of passive talent is is is really the focus.
And when you kind of even narrow further on this like source talent, this is how c most companies think about it.
I am going to reach out to a hundred people.
Twenty people.
Will reply just for round numbers. So twenty percent of those are reply. By definition.
That is not the top twenty percent.
That is just the twenty people who you caught on a bad day.
For them. Good day for you. Bad day for them.
And so you're starting with a sub optimal set.
You're not starting with the top twenty percent, even if that's what and then the way we all recruit is we kind of weed people out at each stage.
And we hire the remainder.
So this remainder hiring
Is the output of the funnel of doom.
And you th when you say that out loud, you're like, That's kinda messed up. If I if I think about building
A talent dense company over time.
Is that really the best approach? Or does that kinda get me like just above average over time, assuming I have really good
interview process and hygiene and all these things, you kinda regress to the mean.
Over time.
As you get to as you get to volume.
And so
I we just think about this in a different way. It's like what if
You had confidence out front.
of who the top twenty percent was.
And then you use your assessment process.
To validate that thesis.
Of who those are.
That seems like a better yeah, so there's this funnel do, but there's like within a funnel dune, there's this a pillar of excellence.
What if you started with the pillar of excellence and went from there?
versus having this wide.
Panel?
'Cause imagine how expensive that is.
To do remainder.
Based hiring.
And you kinda hire the person who drops to the bottom.
Uh I love this, especially hearing this.
Like this is how hiring has been.
Forever.
And
Just here you describe it, it's clear this is not optimal.
Why hasn't this changed?
Uh ever.
There is a
Um
Something detrimental about con comparing it to a sales funnel?
Because in in a sales funnel we're you know, as a as a a sales person, you're typically selling a widget.
a piece of so uh software
An item
Those things are relatively static and rational.
In recruiting
You have an irrational
Unit.
of a hiring manager and recruiter and
But and then another rational unit of a candidate.
And so to believe that things are
transactional and linear and
pass through in the same ways, I think is a bit of a fallacy.
But
Sales has been around for
Hundreds of years? Hundred a long time recruiting
As a craft, or in the kind of this is like
Fifty years, forty years, you know, so we're behind.
on it, but like as humans we often try to
relate a problem to another problem that we know.
And so I think this connectedness to sales has been somewhat detrimental.
To companies.
I say think about doing this in a more strategic way.
So let's follow the thread and help make it very clear what you're describing here.
The way I've heard you describe this is you treat every hire as an executive recruiting
Sort of higher.
Uh and the goal is to go for the top one percent
of people out in the world versus kind of who he kind of drops in the funnel.
Sho talk more about just that kind of way of thinking about it. So if you've ever worked on like a senior specialized hire leadership
roll done well. Here's there's roughly like three main steps.
One is scoping.
And so if you think about going after the one percent.
The most important step is getting really clear on what one percent means to you.
And so if you've ever heard that phrase like I will n I'll I'll know it it I'll know it when I see it.
Oh no, a great looks like you actually you won't.
You won't see you won't know'cause you haven't spent like the time objectively
Identifying what that
What great looks like. And so when you think about scoping, if we can just dive into that the cornerstone piece.
Really good scoping is thinking about
Um
What are like the skills and experiences you're looking for? You stack rank these things, you get really clear objectively before you talk to any candidate.
But it sets up your entire process. It sets up your sourcing strategy.
It sets up your
Pitch?
For them?

Um, why is this role important? What would success look like? It, you know, it really helps you craft those things. It also helps you set up your assessment process and like what you're gonna be assessing against. And it helps you think about kind of that close of like why this person and why this role is gonna have big impact here. So it really that
I think piece of the hiring process.
is underinveste in.
But in a leadership search
That is often like known to be a really strong cornerstone.
So let's say you take like this like really good scoping
And then you kind of you pair it with really good market mapping.
Intelligence and signals.
that to give you confidence of who the very best people are. So when you're doing a leadership search, for example, you're like, okay, there's really in your mind like, hey, there are 50 people in the world who can do this.
Let's go find those fifty people.
Right, and so that kind of that approach
I think you can do a scale if you do that really good scoping and get really clear on what that looks like.
And then you take
That that like list of 50 people, those targets, and you relentlessly pursue and you focus your energy on activating those people.
Not trying to find them out of the
Final O'Dom.
Um high you know large population.
Amazing.
Uh, I imagine everyone listening to this is gonna be like, We need Adam on our team, ASAP.
Uh, unfortunately you're locked in by a company. And so we're gonna do our best to try to extract as much wisdom as we can in this conversation because you're
Uh
You have a job.
So this is great. So kind of the three steps here that you walk.
How to approach hiring
From this perspective, the way that
Executive.

This idea of going after top one percent. So step one was be very clear on what top percent looks like. So just to kind of mirror back what you just shared.
be clear on the skills you need and kind of stack rank here's the skills we need from them.
This person.
What experiences we're looking for and stack rank that
Talk about why this role is impactful and just why this is so important is
Is there anything else there just to flush that up?
I mean, those are the general buckets. I every company will have other specific things that really matter. But yeah, those would be
Yeah, those would be the things. And remember, those are all those are these are things you're not asking are
What companies are they from?
Oh, these are the kind of these are these are objective.
somewhat transferable
Things?
Versus
Trying to
Piggyback off of someone else's
Process or definition of great.
'Cause we just said
almost every company's doing this wrong or has kind of been doing funnel doom. So why would we mirror or map
Someone else's process that we feel like maybe wasn't perfect.
Um
And your company is different, your product is different.
And so you it you owe it to yourself to kinda identify what does great look like for you.
and who's gonna be successful in this role in this cup product versus what was successful for someone else.
in a process that maybe you don't have
full confidence in any way.
So you're saying specifically don't focus on
And it's a trap to focus on the logos on the resume. I think so.
Yeah. There are clearly vintages of companies.
When you're like, hey
You this team at this company at this time.
Did fantastic things.
And possibly because that person was on that team at that coming that time, they are great.
Possibly.
That can be like shorthand.
Uh, but that but most companies jump to that.
Almost immediately.
Awesome. Okay.
Step two is mapping out and finding basically the top fifty.
What are tools that help you do that? Is it like LinkedIn? Is it something else?
I think it's a combination of things. Um, but I think I where I where we typically start is a set of people
Who we trust.
In terms of having high taste
In talent.
And so
Yeah, but I think the mistake though, and that's not that's an obvious
Point.
But the mistake that most companies make
is they'll say Hey Lenny, who's the best
Uh product engineering, you know.
That is the worst question you can ask.
The best the better question to ask is hey, Lenny
Of all the product engineers you worked with.
Who stands out to you as the person who's most collaborative?
With designers.
Or
Who can translate
A framework
Into a product.
Better than anyone you've ever seen.
You can have to put these very specific characteristics
Or skills
Or needs for your team, and then that's way easier for you to conjure up people that way.
Then like this broad question
Who's the best person?
And I imagine that maps to the step one, which is where you map
The skills experience. So the questions you're asking are mapping back to those that cornerstone work that you did in step one.
So when you ask very targeted questions.
to a set of people, you actually start to triangulate around the same names.
Yeah.
Okay. Um
Lenny mentioned them, but so did Sally.
Well let's let's put
This person on the list, on the target list.
Okay, so so part of the strategy here is you talk to people you trust.
We're awesome, whose taste you trust, ask them these questions.
Uh, what else helps you find these people in the world?
So if you think about um what's
Let's pull out like the set of um
Characteristics.
Like okay, um
The characters of song we want is like really
uh curious uh systems thinker
Whatever they might be, maybe two or three things, then you're like thinking about what companies also share
That approach.
to how they hire.
And you could literally
probably do a quick bullion or
Yeah, string and be like
Hey, look at all the job.
openings in the world among these hundred companies, which ones also say these characteristics matter?
Right. So you kind of think about, oh, where could they have maybe picked up some of these skills for a company who also said that that matters as well. And so then you start to kind of build like company lists.
That aren't
the normal list you have. But you but but in the those they might show up there too, but let's validate it through
The things that we objectively said we wanted for us.
It's so interesting. Systems thinking has come up on a four
last four podcasts I've done.
Such a
Trending up attribute people are looking for these days. Yeah, I think it's like always been there in a little bit, but I think it's just become really accentuated now.
Uh in this era.
When you when you hear the term systems thinking, what's what's kind of a way you describe what that actually means when people hear that term?
I I I learned this pretty early, uh, maybe in the the second company I worked for.
And it comes around to a fundamental question of what problem are we trying to solve.
Right. And so when I think about system thinking, when I'm s sitting in a room like what is like the fundamental
Right.
questi problem that we're trying to solve.
And then how do we take this like larger problem and break it into really small pieces? And I fortunately been working with like engineers most of my life and I just really have learned and I admired how they can take something that's really big and break it in and kind of start to tackle that problem, that problem, as long as you're anchored into like what is the overall thing.
Um that we're trying to solve here.
Awesome, very helpful. People who hear these terms are like, Yeah, yeah, I'm a great systems thinker.
And so it's always helpful to just hear from different people what that actually means. You know, I think systems thinking sounds very strategic.
But actually I think it's ex
Extremely tactical.
The very best systems thinkers take these things and put'em into like very small tactics and start to remove
Each you know, but tactic by tact it kinda remove the problem, remove the the blocker.
So to close the thread on this step of finding these
Incredible people.
What I'm hearing is mostly it's kind of sit around, talk to people, and just jam in a dock probably of
Here's people that people recommend, here's companies to look at.
Yeah, and there are tools and there's there's LinkedIn, there's all these things too.
Um but I think the most valuable one
is the most time intensive one.
Which is you spending time in and digging into people's
Networks. I I I I you know, we've shared this before, but
Uh people on my team whose entire job
is to dig into our current employees' networks.
You could you could automate that.
You could use an AI tool
and have some f walk them through a facilitation of it.
But nothing beats you and I sitting down every other week for six weeks.
In diving into people. You're like, hey, last less session.
Uh you gave me these three names.
I check down like
And then but what about this person? You're like, Oh yeah.
They were great too. I'm like, Oh, well, it's got and so you kinda go back to back. But by the way, I'm also holding you accountable for you sending out notes.
And what did they say? Oh, they didn't reply.
You're gonna send another note. And so kind of this like
One to one, hand to hand.
cultivating of signal.
I think is really important. Of course, those signals go into like a system and a database, but the extraction
I think is a hugely personal
Ineffective approach.
This all sounds very time intensive.
And
Slow and lots of work.
How do you
You know, there's a reason companies don't
Higher this way, treat everyone as an exec,'cause they're not execs. They're, you know, I C engineers, PMs.
How do you talk about that trade off of
taking this approach, knowing that it's gonna take a lot more time and effort. Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean I usually like we'll ask a question, so founder
Like
You know, in the all the things are important to you.
Uh, where does talent fall into that list?
And like
Uh.
It's number one.
Like talent is the most important thing.
Okay. So if the town doesn't know one thing, like there it is not about
Time
Or c like this is the most this is where the focus
Should be.
And so
Yeah.
If talent is number one, then
There should be no obstacles to
In terms of effort or resourcing
Or time put in.
to get there because that is paramount to your success.
You just said that objectively.
And so
Yeah, so if the if the both can't be true, you know, you can't say, Hey, it's the most important thing and
I'm going to outsource it.
Or I'm going to hand it over to a recruiting organization to do
Uh if it's the number one thing that's like that is your focus.
Like hearing that obviously correct. Why would you not do that? And then there's like holy shit, everything's on fire all the time. I I have to make time for all this stuff.
All these meetings and it's just like
Is there anything you do to help
keep a founder and a team on track and just sticking to this plan knowing it's so much work and time. Yeah, I mean typically the founder's keeping the company on track around that. The very best companies. And so
And part of it keeping on track means like
Keeping top of mind.
You know, uh there's also the adage of uh what gets measured gets done.
So if it's an important thing.
We we measure it just like we might measure uptime.
Or we might measure
customer um satisfaction or we might measure revenue.
And we hold those teams accountable. We also hold hiring managers and leaders and organizations accountable.
Hiring.
And so keeping it top of mind but putting in the right
Systems.
around uh rewards and recognition and all those things around it.
will help comp people keep it as a priority.
But if you aren't measuring it, aren't you they will hand that over, they will shirk that responsibility.
To s somewhere else.
Yeah, one of your big pet peeves is
Uh
Having the recruiters
The s not basically empowering
the recruiters and hiring managers not being deeply involved in the process. Yeah. I think a lot of companies, um
The recruiting owns the hiring goal?
And I've yet to be in a company where recruiters are making hiring decisions.
So these things are in conflict.
hiring managers or leaders or committees
Are making hiring decisions.
And I feel like the recruiter's goal
is really about helping
Provide confidence.
To that hiring manager to make the right decision.
They're a confidence engine.
They're not a
Decision making.
Engine.
And so I see a lot of companies where they
Um
They lose the thread.
is when they essentially hand over
The function of recruiting.
The act of recruiting to a function of recruiting.
Right. And so no one should care more.
About a higher
No one gets the joy.
Or the pain of a good and bad hire.
than that hiring manager and that team.
So why then is a recruiter or recruiting organization
holding that accountability when they are actually don't they don't have they don't have the decision making, let alone
The benefits.
Or or pain or cost of a good or bad hire.
I wanna come back to this, uh it's like a different funnel, but I'll call it a funnel. Would you still describe it as a funnel, but the funnel of non doom? Is there another term?'Cause it's still kind of a funnel. Yeah.
Yeah. They could be f they not all funnels are bad. So yeah. Talent density. Yeah.
So coming back to the how to discover the best people, uh, luckily there's this incredible post out there about how cursor approaches
hiring by Bree Wolfson that uh was very helpful in helping me prep for this.
Talk.
And another tactic that she shared of how
cursor finds the best people is there's a Slack channel called Hiring Ideas.
And
People on the team just share. Here's someone we might want to hire.
It's super active. Uh yeah, we could pull it up right now. Um, maybe we can get some audience input on it. Um so the the general gist is
Someone will
Come across something impressive.
A uh a product
A post
Um
What
Overheard at a barbecue?
And they'll drop that person's profile.
Or that ex post.
Into the in Hunter Channel and it becomes a rallying
Affect around
Ooh, I've heard of them. I know here's how we get together. Here's what I think w is compelling to them. You almost like create this quick like strategy.
Of how we might engage this person.
And imagine working at a place
Where the company just
Is wired that way.
Where people like
excited and enthusiastic and like love the thrill the hunt and like to go
w want to work with great people.
And so we're just like
very fortunate to have that as like a
Ongoing tailwind.
Um, but that's like that was like an early
Expectation, if you will.
Um
An early
Um, almost like
How I say it's almost like
Um
Social credibility
In the company.
To be able to like surface someone here is great and then people come in and help out and try to to get them into the process.
So as recruiting, like that's like such a get like we are not initiating that. We're not dropping in a profile. Does anyone know this person?
This is
And m uh you know, non recruiting
Folks in the company.
uh dropping in ideas and then the company rallying behind it.
Amazing. So this is just a really good way to just
We zoom out again.
The way most companies hire.
There's this funnel people apply, people are fur and they kinda work through
And that you try to reach out and kinda work through and
Pick a few.
at the bottom and your point there is this is like
N not the top.
people because they're not gonna reply to you, they're not gonna make it through the funnel. You don't even know what you're hiring for a lot of times. Right.
Correct, correct. And but you know, by the way, like you know, all the hiring ideas
aren't always great ideas. They aren't always right for us, but it is becomes this almost like
Tangenta.
injection into the hiring process.
that um is often um
Okay, now come.
And so just to
uh maybe make very clear how different this approach is is the basically it's the opposite. It's figure out who are the
best top fifty people for this role in the world.
And then uh relentlessly pursue them.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So let's talk about that part of it, how to actually relentlessly pursue people.
What are some
tactics and stories there of just how you convince these top people to actually talk to you and then join.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the things you said a few minutes ago is about, hey, this can be a very slow
Process?
Right.
Um
And if you're at like a zero point
You're you're at day zero?
That can feel like a slow it can feel like a slow burn.
But imagine
over multiple days, you're actually planting all of these seeds.
with potential top fifty people.
They're gonna come to harvest
At different rates.
But you gotta plant the seeds.
You gotta start.
Because it will take
Weeks.
For some months.
For others.
I have stories of years.
Yeah, of we've worked on uh on candidates.
And but you have to start the clock on that.
And you and so
How we think about this like relentless pursuit is
you'll often reach, you know, one step is just getting them into a conversation, getting a response, getting some kind of engagement.
Um, but most people will tell you
If you get them, it's like not good timing.
Here's all the reasons I can't do it.
And you're like, Hey, I'm not uh I'm not asking you to interview.
I'm not asking you to consider a role.
I'm asking for our next conversation.
And so
when you say, Hey, you know, it's not really good timing for me right now, maybe
Uh in the late fall.
You're like hey.
Tot I totally show that's great. Like can but also can you come by for um you wanna come by for a coffee and see the office?
Right.
Can you
Can I introduce you to this other person on the team who's really fascinated by your work?
Can you chat but and so you know it's not it let's say it is true they can't join till late fall.
That doesn't mean you're not
connecting them and having conversations on a weekly basis and working that
Peace.
In the in it can only move it forward.
By doing nothing but actually talking to them in the late fall, at best
You get them, even if they're
still interested then or someone else hasn't grabbed them.
So we think about this continual touch point.
Approach.
To them.
to getting them into process.
Um, but that could again, we're willing to do that over
Days, weeks, months, and sometimes years.
When you reach out to someone, imagine working a cursor now part of SpaceX, it's like, Oh, this is interesting and cool. And you know, it's like well, you never know, maybe it'll work out someday.
A lot of companies and you've worked with other companies that are not as
Interesting of a brand and as successful.
Is there
Any advice for folks to get someone over the line to even talk that works.
Yeah, I imagine it's all very particular and nuanced, but just any advice there. Yeah, I think it's really spending a lot of time up front to get a sense of what could be
uh engaging for them.
So who might that be?
And what might that topic be?
And so there's very there are
There are a number of
Um excellent people in the world who aren't on any platform.
There's no information about them.
But most
You can get
A couple nuggets. We spent a lot of time here thinking about who can create a warm intro.
To that person.
Almost as much effort goes into that.
Than it does
Yeah, so
messaging and the the right, because if you get the right person, that accelerates it.
Right. And once someone's ignored one thing.
It's much easier for them to ignore the second and third.
But if you get the first one right.
You like condensed that.
That that activation.
Timeline.
And effort.
I've heard that you often say caring is free.
Yeah.
Talk about that'cause it feels like that connects throughout this entire process.
Yeah, I d I think there's like all kind of
tactics out there that are of varying degrees of cost.
But out caring other companies that like when I've built recruiting teams, that's something that we've always talked about. Like we can care more.
About that candidate.
than anyone else. That that's in us. That's within us. We can do that.
And I think
Like um
Over the history of time.
When you look at candidate satisfaction scores.
The number one thing it's always there.
Is the company generally
One in me.
They generally like like they made it feel like I belong there.
It's the more
That
We can care for our candidates and demonstrate that.
I think is an unfair advantage.
And it's it's in all of us. And so it that is like an effort and that is a
Extra step type of thing. It's the extra
uh intentionality that you take that I think
Um in a very somewhat feeling like transactional business like recruiting.
if you're doing this like step by step funnel doom, you kinda get caught up in the steps.
Get caught up in the numbers game.
I need to reach out to a hundred to get to twenty.
I need to have ten higher manager screens to get four on site. You know, you get caught up in the numbers and you lose the human.
Element.
You're looking for the one. You know, so the I tried to remind my remind my team like
We're trying to hire one person for this role here.
Not ten. So don't get caught up in the ten.
Keep focus on the one.
That is such a big reframe in this way of thinking.
As you said, instead of this funnel of we need
Two hundred people at the top to get one at the bottom.
You're just like, here's the fifty people that would be the wor the best fifty in the world for this.
We just need one of these fifty.
Feels a lot more calm.
A lot more doable. And we're building hopefully we're building relationships with dozens of other those that could be so when you talk about this being slow, we're planting seeds.
Planting seeds, we're planting seeds and
I think the other thing that often happens when you kinda get into this final doom mentality is I think you become overly
Consistent
In your hiring approach.
And we are very
Comfortable.
With bespoke.
And add hawk.
Hiring.
That doesn't mean we don't have like similar stages for considering but but like who that next conversation is, what they you know might focus on.
I think we get a little robotic sometimes in recruiting with that.
And we have like so a lot of companies as they get into like higher volume hiring, they might like, Hey, we have a pool of these interviewers who can do this.
Type of interview.
And they just like let fate.
Decide.
They let availability decide who has that next conversation, but you know, the savvy recruiter
Or the savvy hire manager's like ooh.
They mentioned this thing.
Who on our team has that shared interest?
In that pool, right? Can we like be a little bit more prescriptive?
And can we
Um orchestrate a much better can experience by being taking the extra thoughtful step.
Of who might have a better conversation together.
It's so interesting hearing just how important that initial contact is.
for the rest of the process and how much of this is for future seed planting versus even immediately.
Yeah, I think so we put so much energy
to the onsite interview, which I totally get.
But honestly the most important one is that hiring manager.
First conversation.
And so it kinda feels like this like
Fifty fifty, like, hey, half the people you talk to higher marriage should come out. And like we kind of like, I think we underestimate the importance of it.
This is like
who you're gonna work with. This is the person who should care about this person's gonna make the high decision. And so they should be asking the most important questions. They should be getting
Uh, pulling out the most important motivators.
From that candidate. And I feel like we sometimes maybe we put into a thirty minute thing often. It's like thirty minutes.
And it feels like so important to the rest of of that process.
Especially if instead of we just need this funnel and work through a bunch of people, it's this is one of the fifty in the world that could be the best for this. You might meet three times, right? You might meet four times as a higher manager version before that person actually is like, you know, fully in process.
The way uh Bree described this in her piece is that
Uh each read
Hiring is the atomic unit of hiring is the person.
Not the job spec and not the role.
Correct. And I think that to that makes it incredibly frustrating, imagine, for my team.
Because you're like, Oh what's the process you know, and you're like, Well like
Yeah, it's like a dis it's like um
Uh, it's like almost like a decision tree. It could go many different ways based off of this conversation. And so
But when you are not caught into the numbers game, it feels a little bit less
Scary.
When you're really focused on how do we get that person here.
versus how do we are they the right person for that job.
And because they're on this list, they're innately very popular and in demand.
Is there anything else that works for getting them?
Excited to talk and interested, other than you know, soft
The warm intro things you've shared.
Yeah, I mean we've done lots of like tactics, I think, to get them involved. I mean one thing I just
Love
Is breaking bread.
Having a meal with someone?
Is
One of the most human and leveling things that you can do.
Um you you know, uh ha sharing a meal
uh across the table.
Is just a disarming act and a joining act.
that I think is just so important. So that could be a coffee, it could be a lunch, it could be it, you know, it doesn't be super formal.
But I just think it is this humanizing
Activity.
That um I think is really important. So we try to
We try to send her around.
Food and drink.
As much as possible.
I think we've done other things I think are are very useful, which is like if they are one of these fifty people, they might be somewhat
famous or w well respected, they probably have an expertise, having them come in and give a talk.
To the team.
having them come in and do like a fun side project.
Like some that these people they love they love to kinda like share and like learn and they're curious and um and so that they but also it's like it demonstrates
Increased interactivity between the two teams around quality.
And kinda gives them this like realistic preview.
Of being there.
We try to play home games as much as we can, bringing them into the office.
But we also understand some of the folks folks like early on might want to go to a neutral site of a coffee shop or something too. Uh but we try to play home games.
When we can.
'Cause you have the power of the team.
But you have the power of and so you know.
one analogy I think about is like when you sometimes when you walk on to when when some people are considering university
early in their lives, you kinda walk onto a campus.
And you get that feel.
In your gut.
You know, and you can't really describe it just like ooh this feels like home.
We want people to feel that when they kinda walk into the offices of Cursor.
And like
That is like a priceless moment.
And by the way, it's also like uh
It can be like a um
A defining also could not hit.
And that's
It's good to like suss that out early too, but for a lot of people it it does hit and we we like that in the moment.
This uh resonates so deeply with early days Airbnb.
I remember Joe Gebia had the saying, just get them in the elevator.
And this is because the office was on the second floor of this building, you had to like go in this elevator to get in and that was the whole strategy, just get him in the elevator. Yeah. Yeah.
Um that would that's like half more than half the battle.
Uh
Along these lines of breaking bread in uh home court, I know uh this might be one of the reasons you guys have a cafe cursor right right there near the office, which was and now it's like happening all over the world.
Uh.
I think Ben leads this work, but it's all these cafes popping up all over the world.
Yeah, I think it's been a interesting. Um obviously it's it's very much focused on the product and the the user, but
He and that team have done a really good job of taking that.
Vibe.
And putting into
uh moment and if you've been in the cursor offices it almost feels like you're in a um
Hogsworth library, it's very warm. It's not like but cafes bring that energy in in

Uh and so we've tried to kind of
Lift.
And yeah, lift that and drop that in uh really around the world.
There's also a lot of chalkboards at the office.
It's like has this like uh some like it's like again like this like disarming warm.
Feel
that I think really kind of exudes our like Midwest vibes.
That is like kind of sometimes how I describe
Um, cursor, you know, very hard working, very ambitious, but
Yeah, at the same time the work speaks for itself and understated.
As well. And so
I think a lot of our office helps uh invoke those vibes too.
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Okay, so if people have been following along, we're working our way through the funnel. This kind of my strategy here. So we've talked about how to kind of figure out what you're looking for, figure out who these people are, how to get them talking to you.
So you got them at in the interview stage?
What are some things you
learned about how to increase your signal on the person and
identify if they're a good fit and some of you want to make an offer to Yeah, some of it's a little fundamental, which is um
Research has shown that work samples are the highest
Predictor.
Of success at a company.
But yet most companies are still spending a lot of time doing
One to one across the table.
Assessments.
And so
Uh, you know, I think we are famously known for doing uh long onsite experiences for some of our roles.
Um
s where they do a project and they get work to side by side. So that gives us a very strong signal. And also gives them the candidate tremendous signal.
And so I think this is where most companies get it wrong on the on site.
They're almost always
buying.
This is like we are assessing, we're extracting information. We're not giving much
Back.
to the candidate.
And I'm a big fan of
The power of self selection.
And self selection really good self selection starts with really good inputs in data.
And so we want that experience with a candidate to feel more two way.
Than most.
So
We really
Think about
crafting that onsite experience through who they might meet. We talked about that, we really
Clear like hand picking who they might meet.
Um for those interviews we we do a lot of work sample
And project type of work.
To give us good signal. But we also really curate
Who's greeting them?
Who's sitting beside them for lunch?
Like we always try to put it around a meal, a dinner, or lunch, or breakfast.
Everything is really curated to make that
as high quality experience for them to get them the data.
But we you know, but also
us getting data from people that we feel like are gonna but most gonna connect with that person.
Who runs point on this sort of uh experience? Is it a recruiter or is it the hiring manager? Um I would say I think it's the recruiter.
Um, primarily as the quarterback.
But they're pulling lots of levers.
Um, and so the hiring manager is probably going to have the most insight into some of those people.
Are recruiting coordinators?
uh are tremendous, and I think we probably
And they they do a lot of this um
hosting with us as well.
Um, and so our recruiting corps, of course, do some scheduling, but they're probably doing more of this candidate shepherding.
So imagine a candidate was with us for a day or two.
There's lots of like moving pieces and helping them move from
A work station where they might be doing a project into lunch
back to that, helping them get their environment set up. Yeah. So um there's a lot of people in play.
We ask our quarterback and hire a quarterback to be our
recruiter to be the quarterback.
a lot of the you know, the insights coming from higher managers and execution with the coordinator too.
It's interesting just how much of the experience and process changes with this
world view of the every person we are talking to is very special.
And
Is they're very rare, and these are the best.
uh for this role. And so it it's clear how much of it trickles down into
Thinking deeply about every touch point along the journey.
Versus the typical journey.
And imagine that you have uh teams and employee base who like
understand that while they went through it. So you get over this like tipping point moment.
With a company where
They had that experience.
So they recognize acknowledge it. Now they're part of
How fun is that?
Right.
They had a great experience. Now they get to help deliver that.
For this next batch.
So if you kinda create this like flywheel
opportunity once you get kinda over that initial hump.
I just remembered actually I had a friend applying for a job at Cursor.
And he said it was the best Ganite experience he's ever had.
Just remember that.
And but so so by definition, we've thought about like doing a lot of um scoping of really great people.
Not all of them are gonna be a fit for us by their choice or ours.
But every one of them can walk away.
As a net promoter.
And by de again, by definition, they're some of the best.
Those
Promoters way more and count more.
than others because they're influential, they're great, they're known to be good. And so
They may never come back to us, but they might tell you.
Who now tells this audience?
Or they might tell you who then you you mentioned something at a barbecue.
And like now it becomes this like
Ground swell.
You need start to build a b a little stronger magnet.
In that activation.
becomes a little bit less hard.
If you do that well.
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Uh, the work trial piece I saw an interview with Michael
Terrell talking about this and he said how he they tried to get rid of it.
Because it's obviously adds a lot of load and
And some people don't want to be doing these things.
And he said that it just
totally tanked their signal.
And they had to bring it back.
Yeah, it's a huge commitment, you can imagine, of time.
Um but
If talent is your number one thing, then
You know, that is a good investment of time.
to do it. You know, it when we all have a role to play in recruiting.
Uh at the company.
Um not everyone is like
Carved out or
you know, best to do work trial work, but like some are. Yeah, some but some can do the lunch. Some can do the green some you know, so so there's like lots of different ways that people can play a role.
Um, but yeah, when we ran that experiment
Um
Yeah,'cause it is it is quite expensive. It is also a a big ask.
of candidates.
we really struggle to have confidence in our decision. Again, this this is a confidence building
Function?
And so uh we are excited to bring it back.
So good learning there is it's like if you are not doing this.
You're lacking significant signal.
Possibly. Yeah, I think so. You know, and I think there I don't think there's a lot of maxims or absolutes.
in this business. Um
But I think for a lot of companies
It's hard to think of a better way than you know doing side by side real work to get those signals.
Obviously some of it, you know, in this case is like a technical signal, but imagine the amount of like
core values and um collaboration and other things you get like other signals you get.
Over a a stretch of time that can be
Um arguably
more important than
The specific technical skill.
What do you do for like PMs or like I don't know, go to market or offspeople? Is there something like that?
Yeah, we have a version of this across and so
Uh the go to market, um
Team does like a challenge where there's like a problem they work through like a challenge to get like a challenging customer, things like that. And that's like often like one to one with the hiring manager. Um
product uh does a similar
Um, like project type together as well. So we have like versions of that that I feel like are titrated.
to
The function, but also
the role and things like that as well. So we try not to be like uh uniform.
across this, um because these functions are very different.
One of the classic criticisms with the work trial is you're doing work for the company and it's like
Oh, we're just solving problems for you for free.
Yeah. What's the philosophy on the problem they tackle, say engineering or PM?
Yeah, there there's a set of problems they can choose from. So um, you know, and um so we feel like they have like some direction and discretion. We also are very open to
right sizing it for them based on where they are and their availability and time too.
um up to uh a certain extent. So we try to be flexibility flexible and understanding.
Around that. And we also, you know, we'll sometimes use Saturdays too, you know. So like
We understand it can be hard to take away time away.
on a work week or a tr traditional work week. And so
I we totally get it.
It's it's a big ask, a big commitment.
Uh, we think it's worth it, but we're also willing to schedule that when that works for them.
So
There's this like
conflict around
A lot of time and effort that could feel slow.
But when they're ready to go.
We are fast.
Right. We make up that time.
So
If you and I were having an initial screen, you're like, Yeah, okay, I'll I'll be able to talk in

Open up your calendar. I have their calendar. Great. You're gonna talk to them.
In an hour.
Right. So like you like move once they're ready to go, you gotta capitalize on that. You can't create openings for them to kind of have second guessing. So when we go, we go, but we it might take a lot of time to get up to that moment.
Moving ourselves further down the funnel.
What's kinda the moment when you decide we're gonna make this person an offer?
Is there something that
You look for specifically, or and or just what's the process like a hiring committee meeting is some else.
Yeah, we uh we debrief as uh as immediately as possible.
Um as a team
Each I um each function has a little bit of a different hiring process of what that looks like.
But we we don't have hiring communities, it is hiring manager led.
They get lots of input from the team.
Um and remember the the role of the hiring manager
Is you know, it's not a democracy.
hiring manager is holding their that group accountable for getting helping them get them the the right inputs.
to make out the right decision, to make the best decision, higher and no higher.
Uh, and so we try to frame it.
In that way.
Making sure we get really good signal.
On it.
Um tr so we try to move really quickly. So debriefing's typically same day.
If not next day.
Um
And you know, kinda like they make that decision, and then that decision goes to the founders for
For stamping.
Awesome.
Okay.
Mm.
Then you get to the offer stage.
There's a bunch of stuff here, but one is just
Uh there are many massive offers happening these days.

Okay, so say you made an offer to one of these top fifty people and they're like, Okay, but I also got this offer from Anthropic for a bazillion dollars.
How do you handle that?
And also just is that like super frustrating or is it like oh wow, more signal this person is incredible.
Yeah, I th I think it can it can be both. There's room for both. Um I think that
Um the goal is to not be
Selling.
At the close.
We're we're trying to sell
Trout.
And so if you think about
The craft of recruiting.
The craft of recruiting is up front getting a really clear on this person's motivations.
And what might be why
They might make a move and for what?
And then making sure that that entire experience
Hits to those.
pieces. So the at the end is a combination.
Not a start.
Right? It feels like almost like a natural

How come?
of it. Where it's just like oh this is almost like this um
Just like assumptive next step of Yeah, and here's the offer that we talked about all along. So we versus like kind of starting the the clock or starting the conversation on a close.
I think we try to get back to those motivations, so
We might think about how we would differentiate against inanthropic size wise or the role or the team or the people you work with.
Um, we try to think about we really try to focus on the intrinsic
Things not the same.
Transic.
Thanks.
Which is very hard to do when you're you're getting
MBA
Players.
Like offers and salaries and sometimes
Great bigger than that.
But we really try to focus on people who
Uh wanna be wanna be here.
You know, and um
Often when people are thinking about
um their job search and what might be next. They'd maybe start with a set of things and we maybe help them discover other things along the way.
And we might discover at the end.
That it actually
This is not the right fit.
And that's okay. And we should be we feel good about walking away from that.
Uh, but often it's around helping them
discover that actually maybe this is the right place.
Through that journey.
How often do people
Take a job.
Without with that doesn't have the highest calm.
Like is that common or is that rare?
Yeah, I think you're trying to mitigate
Comp as a reason people come or don't come.
Um, and often that means you're not at the it's not the highest number.
And I think you you know, we've all probably talked with people who maybe
at some point in their career chase just the largest number.
And I think what you realize six months in is like that just becomes your new level of like
Comp expect.
You know, comp life.
But you're you're not excited by the people you work with or
The work you're doing.
Um and so we try to kind of mitigate that as a as a piece, but I think it happens happens a lot.
Yeah, and also rightfully so, you know, there we've probably lost people where maybe we were the highest one and they went somewhere else too. And like if that's the right fit for them, this is this is gonna found sound a little polyamic.
But like I fundamentally believe
There are right people.
for right companies at the right time.
And if they discover at the end of that that we're not
That's the right call for them in like
As a recruiter
If they're not the right fit, I literally have to redo that work.
In six months.
I don't want to redo that work.
I'd rather let's let's figure that out right now.
Um and have that more open conversation.
You should build a an agent that helps you decide
And figure that out which company is the right fit for me right now in this time. Yeah.
That would be that would be that would be super interesting.

Uh something that I've heard Anthropic does that I've never heard anyone do
Uh similar to Tesla. They don't have a
They don't let you negotiate.
Mm. They're just like here's the offer.
Do you feel like that's like an only anthropic thing that they could do because they're just anthropic and
Or is or is that something you think about?
I've I mean I've thought about it I see you know, uh over time c different companies have done that. Um and I think
What I respect about it is like you make that call.
And um
And you kind of stick with it and there's a commitment to it.
Um, but every company's different and I think the approach is so I I respect it, but um it you know think about it, but
It you know may not be right for us.
From the candidate's perspective.
What are what are some mistakes that people make when they get an offer?
That kind of shoot themselves in the foot.
Um generally the advice I give to
candidates is when you think about your offer and if you're negotiating
It has to just
Fit.
A line of logic.
Right? And so
If you are asking for a certain piece of conversation or a certain
other piece of it. Like what is it rooted well how like
Walk me through like your the logic behind it.
And like how like I think that makes it
Easy for the person to understand, but also easy for them to communicate that.
forward to maybe a different decision maker as well. Um so I see
Yeah.
Can it's maybe a little bit all over the place on that.
Uh, where early on is this and now it's this and it's kinda kinda the add on.
Type of thing.
versus a kid who's coming in of like
Here's the four things that are important to me.
And being clear and kiss consistent with it.
Um as as much at the from the outset as you can.
Not all things can be there at the outset.
Um that makes it very logical.
and easy for the company to kinda engage with that.
Versus just
Finding random excuses for more comments.
Correct. And you know, I think what a company generally knows is like
We're not their top we're intrinsically not their top choice.
Right. And so
Um, we're trying to win head and hearts.
Here?
Yeah, it's not we're not trying we're not we're not trying to
Um
We're not trying to buy that out.
How just like mind blowing are these comps these days? I imagine you've seen so many.
Yeah.
I think it's all it's all true and worse.
Um or higher.
I think the qu the open question a lot of us AI companies are like, How does this like
Where does it go? How does it go from here? Like how does this end?
Nobody knows.
Uh, but it does feel like
The unit
Of measure that matters the most.
is the most fixed and finite, which is time.
It is a race against the clock.
To get
The model, the talent.
You know, and like that is like the all that is like the thing that matters the most is the most precious
Clearly for some companies there's more money and there's more other things, but time is like
is our uh is the most fixed and important asset right here.
In this market.
Just coming back to the AI researcher trend, it's crazy how these people used to be just like
Often aside.
building these AI models, ML models, not that it
Exciting to anybody and now they're like the most in demand.
And I remember I helped uh build out the um the research group.
at Facebook before
They may just not hire
PhDs even you know, advanced degrees really much at all.
And
Um
Yeah, this is
Uh twenty ten or something.
And I remember meeting just like this
set of academics, really.
Who
We're gro getting this like growing frustration of their work, not
Ever making it outside of those h the halls.
of academia.
And so
I'm like very excited for that population to have like this moment.
You know, they've been
Arguably
The underpinning
of technical innovation for decades.
And
They're having their moment.
And like
Well well well deserved.
Kind of along those lines.
to close out this the funnel of let's call it the funnel of joy instead of the funnel of doom.
I heard from one of your candidates, here's the quote that I got.
Uh that you and your team's ability to close and convert candidates with offers to accepts is extraordinary.
What are some things you do that help
Get someone over the line that are kind of on the fence.
Yeah, um so I think there's like a a couple of things there. One I I I'll just r re mention quickly, which is that
The closing is happening throughout.
the process, um, in terms of like who they're meeting and motivations and comment and like removing objections along the way.
Uh so that's one. I think the second is
Um closing is a team sport.
And so
When we have a candidate
Um, particularly like a high profile, high caliber.
There are
Often daily stand ups.
Around that candidate about what we're doing.
To get them to yes. And that might be ten minutes.
But it's not the amount of time, it is like I focused energy every day.
around what we are collectively doing. And so that could be the hiring manager or creator, but also could be former peers. You know, there's like lots of people who influence that and we try to be very intentional.
about making sure that person feels cared for.
And blog air incoming air and like staying on top of things.
The third thing I think is we just try to make it very personal.
Um, and so just this week, w uh you know, two days ago, I I just saw and we try to share these stories internally too.
'Cause this is how builds the culture of recruiting. We kinda share these stories back to the company.
Uh, but someone was sharing, we were working on a candidate in New York.
And we learned that
Uh through getting to know them that they went to a performing arts high school.
And we're a classically trained violin violinist.
And where it's just kind of very into like
Stringed.
Instruments.
Um
So this person um
W I found this like specialty it's store in New York City.
And bought this like kind of
Unique
Turkish guitar almost almost violin guitar.
Same?
And
They're meaningful like a a a dinner where they got the offer and they presented that gift.
To them.
And so
It was
A couple hundred dollars maybe, right? Not a lot of money, particularly relative to like the size of offer and the size of impact that we thought that you know that some was gonna have.
Uh, but it's like it's the thoughtfulness.
The touching uniqueness of it.
In the personal moment of that.
That like I think stands out. And I think
When a Canada thinks about
having the best can experience
Often they feel like
Wow, this felt like tailored to me.
This felt unique to me.
I know there's also a Slack channel that gets created per for each candidate. Every candidate. Yeah. So I think when you talk about the stand up, sometimes that's also a strategy and updates and like and so there's the same rallying effect.
To activate.
Is no different at that at that close and each Canada has their own channel.
Just so much of this just
Keeps coming back to intentionality.
around every specific candidate and not treating it like the funnel, but just this is the atomic unit, this person
What can we do throughout the entire process to make them
Get excited and see if it's a fit.
Which is hard to do when you're doing at scale at the funnel of doom.
So when you are thinking about a hundred candidates
For every role.
Then this is not that does not scale.
But when you're narrowing that down to a small percentage of people that you've been kinda laying groundwork with over time.
It come because it because now people are moving faster through those steps and it's a smaller number of people. So the time that you're taking
Yeah, holistically for that final, you're just
Displacing it putting it in different places.
It's so interesting.
And it's such a different approach. I've never heard of anyone.
Hiring this way.
Yeah, and we have this like thesis when I was at Growth by Design.
You know, around like there's a we think there's this different way to do this. We've seen all these companies over time and worked with labs and all these things are like
Wow, like these companies are literally
At the cutting edge of a technical revolution.
Here.
Part of the most exciting one
We've seen
In millennia.
And they are recruiting
In a
web browser
Way.
Like if
A company
Like had this willingness to commit this time and effort.
As its collective force.
They could really
Have an unfair advantage.
When it comes to talent.
And when you think about companies over time
Whether they become this iconic logo or one that we no we no longer recognize.
It often isn't the first company the fastest to market.
The first idea it's actually execution.
And execution comes down to having the right talent at the right time.
And when companies figure that out.
Like, oh, this is the most important thing and this is how we're gonna approach it.
And so when we met Cursor, we're like,
This could be fun.
Cursor is actually such a great example of exactly what you're describing because it feels like throughout the entire history of Cursor, it was always just like, how are they gonna?
Survive.
There's these model companies building these things, the IDEs, shit. Like
Like people are moving away from IDs.
And it's in been incredible to watch Cursor execute and get ahead of each of these
shift whenever people doubt that there's an opportunity here and just keeps growing and killing it.
I mean it's not too long ago it was like tab auto complete, you know, on it. And like now we're in a fully cloud agents and it's just um
But just remember the time span is like
Yeah.
I came to the office at one point and uh I got a tab button and now it's just like no longer even Yeah, it's now it's just cute. Yeah, now it's just on the shelf. Yeah.
Something that one of your colleagues me to ask you is just what is what is it like to work with an exec team who truly believes recruiting is the most important thing.
It's a gift.
And at times incredibly frustrating.
So the gift part of it is like
Imagine
That
Uh, how much they care like trying to convince
a founder to go have a conversation or to do anything recruiting related, that is not a problem here. And like we've, you know
Oh work for companies who, you know, where you're like
You're trying to like
Pull them in to things.
Um so it's a it's a true gift.
The
You know, the challenge is like they're in your shit.
Like they're in it.
You know, like they understand it. Like the the cursor
Team hired their first eighty people
Roughly eighty people on their own.
They know how hard they know.
How to do it?
They know how hard it is, which is great, but I also like
They love it and they're in it and they want to do it. And so there can be zero ego about this of who owns, you know, who has what piece and like it's an all hands on deck. And so sometimes that can be
confusing on who's doing things and things that you know you find out about things after the fact that happen like
But like it's like I that I'll take that every day.
That is extremely net positive, but there you know, there's always like a counterbalance to
uh such a an advantage like that.
So interesting. That's like CPOs often
are frustrated uh for that reason where the founders are always in there in their shit. Yeah deciding. But they care. Yeah, like I will I'll take the I'll take the effort and care with that tax any day.
And then one of your uh hot takes is that the recruiter the recruiting team should be the highest paid team within the company.
Yeah, one of them. Yeah, if not the I mean if if you think about the this impact that they're having.
Um
that uh in like the
Yeah, I feel like there's a supply and demand crisis around
really strategic recruiters because of the
somewhat transactional nature we've made recruiting over time.
And so I just think there's a really small supply
of recruiters who can
function at this level and at this approach and style.
And so like any other labor market
It's a it's a cost of labor thing and there's just very few of it. And so
Um, we think that
They have tremendous impact.
Um, but it's like a really rare skill set.
Uh something I wanted to ask you that I forgot to ask is
Uh we talk a lot about talent density.
How much of it is about the person specifically versus
The team that you assemble around
Damn.
Yeah, I feel like where companies like overly focus is like an individual
Unless they are a team of one.
It's actually like the the you know, if you think about amazing leadership and amazing managers.
They're actually quite great puzzle builders.
And they think about
building these teams that are
Complimentary
Um together and then help them excel.
And so talent density is not a single
Peace.
Unless like the numerator and denominator are both one.
Yeah, and so but that's not the case. Often this is one over
How many people and so talent density is actually a a collective nature.
of of individuals and humans.
But we often because you are recruiting one human at a time, I think sometimes we get overly focused.
On that specific
Ten Xer?
thing, you know? Um and actually will think I like to think a little bit more around exponential around 10x stuff like that.
A team
Versus an individual.
I don't think you can have
A ten X person on a
Bad team.
It just like doesn't exist. You know, I think you know like I used to think when we were like at my last company
We can't we can't be a great
uh c service provider if we don't have a great c we don't have a great client. We can get there's like just a bar there. And similarly
A person that is might be excellent.
is going to be throttled if they're not on a a a strong and
Support a team.
That makes sense to me.
Okay. I'm gonna ask you a bunch of random questions. These are uh again, I think people are gonna be hearing this and be like, I need Adam immediately. We need help.
Uh and they're not gonna be able to get that'cause you know you got a job. So I'm gonna try to extract as much as I can while we're here.
Um
One is say you're an early stage company, thinking about hiring, setting up your for your hiring approach.
What's kind of
The most common ways that early stage companies and founders F up.
their early team and hiring.
Yeah, I think the thing they try to do is do this um silver bullet.
Higher.
Um, which is a first like head of talent.
And they kind of um collapsed to
Com keep competing skill sets.
In the one.
Okay, so when you are uh generally as a founder, when you're ready to hire your first recruiter,
You're probably behind on hiring. There's a problem to solve there.
You're behind on hiring. So that maybe there's like a
A debt of roles to fill.
Five, ten, fifteen.
But you also are hiring someone at the stage'cause you want them to build like a system.
Like just like uh we're talking like
They might be like wow like I want to build something like
Adam's talking about so you've tried to build this like
Hire someone who can also put in the right pieces.
To help.
Scale out.
And like those are competing
Interests.
Because
person who wants to come in and like just any new hire, they want to like prove out, they want to make hires, but they might not put in the system.
Where they might put in the system, but not make any hires, and now you're like not seeing place. And so they try to can collapse this into one role.
And generally that's a mistake.
So we recommend kind of decoupling.
Those things.
So
That means you still might wanna hire one person, but can you get some help?
With the other one.
I'm gonna hire the person who's gonna put in the right system, but I'm gonna partner them with a
uh contingent recruiter or something else to like make some
short term progress while they in kind of like
teach the company how to do this through these roles that they fill that they're helping orchestrate or
Vice versus I might bring in someone to help us put in the right
uh foundation, which like we did at GBD, and then they could think hire like a really high powered
I see recruiter who can come execute.
Amazing. That makes all the sense in the world.
Uh
When you're looking for that first recruiting hire.
Is there anything else you think is important to look for? I know it depends on maybe which of these two buckets they're gonna be in, but any other advice?
Yeah, I think number one is that they are
Like curious and business focused.
Um they're an early member of the team.
They gotta be
Really
Curious understanding of how the business works and how each of those hires is going to change the slope of the business.
Um and so
you know, off that means that they have all these interest in a w it shows up in lots of way, curious people. Uh, but I think that's the number one thing I think of. The number two one, which I think you know, I think these sometimes get
switched is just like high motor.
You know, someone who like understands
The grind that it will be.
And the pace that it works and
He's down for it.
And that doesn't have mean they have to be
younger or or it doesn't mean anything, it's just that they
Love um working at this edge.
And so I often
Think about my team is like
We want the water level to be like right here.
Uh, and so you're like you're breathing.
But you know, and if you if you've met any kind of recruiters
Recruiters are excellent at ninety to one hundred ten percent capacity.
And are terrible outside of that.
Right, if they only have half a recload.
They kinda like are like useless.
Or if they're like, you know.
Way overwhelmed, also just overwhelmed.
But they're kinda great at this like middle ground of like
Edge of adrenaline rush.
Busy?
And you go you want to find those people.
Oh man.
So along those lines, uh, I've heard from a bunch of people that you just have a huge
Follows it.
on your team. There's a lot of heads of talent from other companies that decided to join your team to be ICs.
What are some things you've learned about building
Incredible teams keeping people
working for you over the long term.
One thing I learned is
At each place my team has looked different.
Um because the company how they think about recruiting or the product is different.
And so
The cursor way
demanded a different type of team.
But it demanded this.
level of recruiter.
And who has like understands the leadership recruiting motion.
Who's not gonna get
Caught up in the numbers game.
Oh, the funnel do like they have this confidence and they have you know, they they have a network.
that they can tap into. And so we I think we ought we talked a lot about hiring managers and other people networks, but
Seasoned great recruiters have their own networks too. Like you have a couple of recruiters in your life that you trust.
That you probably would like
Seek advice on.
You know, and so we try to collect those people too,'cause they they can be
as influential
in tapping their networks as
uh a a a technical leader, for example.
Mm. Um so
Then I kinda just kinda think about like three attributes.
Um, of someone who I want on my team.
Uh so one, uh I want people who are excellent humans.
And excellent in what they do.
And I'm not willing to trade that off.
We are gonna spend
most of our waking hours during the week together.
And we should be all be selfish enough.
To want to work with great people.
Great, yeah, great humans.
The second is um people who I look for people who have a chip on their shoulder.
Something to prove.
Um, love the craft they have this like internal drive and motivation.
To be excellent.
Um, and that can show up in lots of ways, and I try to get to that.
And then the third thing is I look for people to put team over themselves.
And so this is really important clearly for the team I built now. They could be running
Recruiting.
A lot of places.
Um, but what they've realized
Is that no one really aspires to get to middle management.
We kinda end up there.
But what they did realize is like they love the craft of recruiting.
And they love to be challenged, they love to learn.
Um, they wanna work with great people.
And so
When I would go out to my network and I'm like, Hey Lenny
Who are three people you know
That are excellent humans and excellent recruiters.
They are just this have this natural drive or chip on their shoulder.
And like
They put team over themselves. You're like ah.
You should talk to Janet.
You st you know you like you can conjure those things up.
And so we've really tried to build a team.
Uh of those folks here.
And I'm really excited about the people we've collected.
Uh it's a good sign when I'm just like, Wait, I wanna work for Adam. This sounds really great.
I I try to be this balance of
'Cause recruiting is sometimes around inspiring your team.
But is it deeply operational?
Function.
You know, and so
I've tried to find this balance of where
I can be like
In the weeds, operational
Understand it.
Be in it with um
But also sometimes lift out and help like
Paint a bigger picture too.
Amazing.
Adam, we've covered so much ground. We've gone through the whole funnel and more.
Before we get to our very exciting lightning round, is there anything else that
You wanted to share anything else you want to leave.
listeners with any nugget you want to double down on.
I mean, one thing that we didn't talk about, which I think is happening, I'm seeing more of is reeneggs on offers.
And so I think a lot of
Companies get to the yes.
Of the offer acceptance.
And there's often like a gap of time.
Uh, and the more senior they are, often it's you know, beyond a couple of weeks.
Uh, we think about a second motion happening.
After offer except.
Which is you know, we're we are a button seat business.
In recruiting?
And there's like a big window there where someone has like
Ah, we accept the offering. We kinda like go on to the next one.
But what are we doing between offer
Except
Enjoy.
And there's two parts of that. One is like make sure they show up. The second is like a bit of a preboarding and helping them have a fast ramp by staying connected with them. So we'll do dinners with other people who have accepted. We try to but create essentially create community around them.
We'll send them a cursor laptop.
You know, can it feel like a presumptive you've joined kind of way. We do these dinners, we do these like touch points.
Um, one is to help to make sure like the that delivery happens, but also to feel like
they they start to get excited too. They start to kinda visually realize what's gonna look like.
Wow, that is so brutal to have gone through that entire funnel.
Got the offer, made the offer, accepted the offer, and and just
Oh man.
And you're saying this is a trend, I imagine, because just the market is so hot and they're getting better offers offers that they didn't expect.
Correct. Yeah.
Uh I love I feel like there's this lake of things we didn't talk about. Is there anything else any other trends? Any other trends, things that you noticed of like, wow, this is changing.
in the hiring landscape.
I think maybe the other trend I think we see like the rise of the talent engineer.
I don't know if you've seen that out there. You know, the kind of the
the the function within a recruiting team who is a possibly former engineer who's like building tools and things like that.
And
Uh my warm take
Not a hot take. My warm take is like every recruiter
should be a talent engineer. Like the things that recruiters now have at their fingertips that they could build.
And cursor or other tools.
is really phenomenal. Um and
In earlier companies I was in, we're often beholden to like begging for engineering time to build us tools or functions or features.
Now that's like that's in us.
Like we have that right now.
uh in our team and so
Uh I want a future state of my recruiting team to feel like they are talent engineers.
Um, versus you know, leaning on someone else on the team to help them like build.
Tool. If that makes sense.
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree. It's interesting. Ever there's good market engineers like every function is gonna have their version of engineer over time.
Engineers, engineers.
Uh
Well, Adam, with that, we've reached our very exciting lightning round. I've got five questions for you. Are you ready?
Yeah, yeah.
All right. What are two or three books that you find yourself recommending most to other people?
Yeah, this is super nerdy.
Um
So there's two. There's one about it's like that like I read in undergrad.
Um that has stuck with me.
And it's Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Golem.
And you know, it's kinda the the rise of EQ.
Um as an important piece of it.
And I just feel like emotional intelligence right now.
More than ever is so important in this like
AI age and so it was like
Super transformative me way back then and I think is like really important now.
Uh and the other one I love for founders is just uh the high growth handbook by UI Gill.
I think it's
So I'm a big fan of a book where you can just jump to a chapter and get an answer.
And it's not this like linear piece you gotta work through.
And so I think it's such a great reference guide.
on different problems and
You know, for the most part building companies, um, the components
Are the same.
You know, the core principles.
Even when that came out several years ago, I still still think hold true. So I I like the the high growth handbook.
Uh a Stray Press uh shout out.
Uh hi Growth Ganberg. Uh I imagine you've read Scaling People by Claire Hughes Johnson. Yep.
Butter. Yeah.
Another straight press.
Uh amazing. I love that yeah, Elad's book is still useful. Like I don't know how many years later.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Uh favorite recent movie or TV show you really enjoyed?
Yeah, I'm I have not seen a movie in years.
Ha ha.
Um I feel like my life is at like twenty minute chunks. Um, but I have been watching a series, uh, The Pit.
Um
And I'm from Western Pennsylvania.
So from like the Pittsburgh area.
And not only is that like a it's not only is it extremely well done.
Um
But two,
It makes my life feel less frantic.
Yeah.
Living hour. It's about the only thing that can make my life feel less frantic is living an hour in an ER.
Um
And like all they they go through and I often yeah try to tell my team around like
the gravity of things, I was like
Hey y'all like
We
get to work for this amazing company and product things, but people are not living and dying every day by the decisions that we make.
In the pit they are, you know, so it's kinda just gives us like leveling part.
Um
And then third, I think they just like
Capture the eth ethos of that region, which is like my core, which is like Western Pennsylvania blue collar grinder.
Uh, and I just think they do a really good job of capturing that. So I've been I've been watching that uh when I can on some airplanes.
I love that for most people that show is very stressful and for you it's calming because it's less stressful. Just the relative relative nature of things is helpful.
I feel like if you've watched the Bear, because I feel like that'd be another example. Yeah. I think if I was probably Chicago guy, that would probably that would probably resonate. Although I have seen it. Yeah.
Oh man. Okay. Uh a couple a few more questions. Uh
Your favorite product you've recently discovered that you really are other than Cursor.
Yeah, I think there's two. I think one is like semi recent and one's I I'm a huge granola fan.
I think I was super early on granola.
And I love that they continue to innovate.
Um and really just uh it's
Yeah, discrete product decisions.
Easy to use.
Um, gr oh gr they're great on feedback.
too, if you've ever given them feedback, they're p phenomenal.
The second I've been using a lot is Whisper.
Whisper flow.
And just trying to get out um quick notes to my team. I am better.
Yes.
than this on in terms of like
My thoughts. And so Whisper's been amazing, uh on the go to drop nose to my team.
Listen to this, Adam.
You may not know this. Uh I don't.
Subscribers to my newsletter.
Get.
A year free.
Oh.
Not only cursor.
But also granola and Whisperflow, I know that thirty other
Incredible products, Replit.
And Google and
lovable and it's out of control.
So if you like any of these product, uh
Ladiesproductfast dot com.
That was not uh that was not a place at all. That was just yeah, I did not know. It's just we have all the best products for free for a freaking year.

Okay, two more questions. Uh do you have a favorite life motto that you often come back to in work or in life?
Yeah, um I think there's like
three things um that I come back to and I you know try to um instill in my kids too. So one is like
Work hard.
I think the value of hard work, um
Is hard to understate.
Um, and something like I grew up in. Second is like do great work.
So
Let's not confuse the two.
And third is like be helpful.
And I think like one thing I've really tried to do
And you know, maybe we part of the reason I was able to help build this team is I've really just tried
To be helpful. And if you talk to founders out there, anyone
I will answer their emails.
I will
Jump on a ten minute call with them.
And
I wanna think that people come to me for help and advice and like it's the right ones and so
And that's just has now like I I now get into reap some of that of people who like want to, you know, come to the work on the team, but
So those two things I've really um
try to live.
That is an awesome set of uh principles to live by.
Uh clearly it has contributed to your success. I'm gonna steal them all. Those are
Really good. That's like a good tripod of things to to be focused on.
You talked about being a dad.
Final question. Uh people said you're uh
You're an expert on on the importance of a well placed dad joke.
I'm not gonna ask you to do a joke unless you want to.
But more so just like what's something you've learned about.
raising kids'cause I'm a I'm a dad, three year old.
Well it's just like a thing you've learned about raising great kids.
It's humbling.
You know, um
They will challenge you in ways you don't expect.
Um they're like
mini mirrors of you sometimes. So it's like that's like a it's a feedback mechanism.
And
It's like such a joy.
Honestly, um
And
I'm very lucky to have an amazing
wife and and partner who
Um at times, most times takes the unfair, you know, load of it. Um
But um yeah, it's probably it's definitely my greatest joy.
That's such a good summary. Yeah, that's exactly how we built it.
Very challenging at times, but the greatest joy.
But just a think about your career though. The thing when you look back on your career
of your most enjoyable times.
You were a little bit over your skis.
You were thrown into something
Unexpected that you weren't ready for.
And you like figure it out. And in the moment
It was a series of ups and downs.
Stacking S curves.
But you'll look back and I'd be like, Wow, that was like
One of like my career highlights.
But you are really over your skis.
Uh, Molly Graham who's been on the podcast and done a couple of newsletter.
Uh guest post, she has this concept she calls the J Curve.
Which is you
Your best roles are just you join and then you go way down and suck at it for a while and then you come back up and that's the best experience you've ever had.
Molly is yeah, Molly has gold out there for sure.
She's so incredible. Working on a new guest post right now might have come out by the time this comes out. Uh with that, two file questions, Adam. Uh what do you want to plug? Anything you want to point people to, and how can listeners be useful to you?
I think they're one in the same. I mean I I uh I'll plug I mean
I would love people to try
Try cursor. I think it's a
incredibly exciting things that we're coming out with. Um, and we're really proud of it. Um, some things in the pipeline too.
I'm not super out there online. I think I'm on LinkedIn a little bit, but um
I really
Honestly try to like my let my work
Um in our team speak for what we do.
Um, but I'm always down to be helpful back to the last point. So um
I I really do get pure
energy and joy from helping people. And so I know at some point that will come back in some kind of way or form. Don't expect it to, but um
That's just where I get that that drive for me.
Just deploy cursor a little bit.
Uh not only is just the design and experience of Cursor awesome
the best feature for a lot of people is you could just switch between models extremely easily. So instead of getting hooked on codex or cloud code, use cursor and then a new opus comes out and you
GPT comes out and you could switch and just play around with it immediately versus switching the product.
Yeah, there was a world where the models were coming out every three or four months.
We're down to a number of days between models and
Uh people I know who love to build products want to be working with the best tools at any given time. And so
you know, our our agent, um
allows you to choose the right model. And I think for a lot of companies also cost
Is a uh is a
rightful consideration now. And so
It really comes around optimization of using the right model for the right task.
And so that's kind of just landing it to
Uh cursor sweet spot.
Yeah, and you guys are also now just building
State of the art models build sitting on
SpaceX's data centers like amazing for cursor.
Getting to train on the world's largest data center has just unlocked um our models. So it's been it's been amazing. What a time to be alive.
Thank you so much for being here.
Thanks for having me.
By everyone.
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