5 Lessons in Negotiation from an FBI Hostage Negotiator

0:00 I'll start with this. Chris, I don't know if you could see this, but I'm writing down Today's date. Because today. Is the day.

0:08 That I become a better negotiator. I feel like I can rule the world a no way be what I want to I put my law in it like my day song. On the roadless travel, never looked at the first time. You are a master negotiator. former uh FBI negotiator for twenty plus years.

0:25 Now you've been consulting, teaching the art of negotiation to business people and Anybody who needs negotiation. And the funny thing about negotiation is uh it's the skill we all need. that I feel like I personally never Got taught. I never I it's all self taught. Anything you learn and One of the things I realized was

0:44 So often I was negotiating and I didn't even realize it, whether it was with an investor or with a with a you know, with an employee or a customer. Life is full of negotiations, but so I'm excited because I think this is gonna be quite useful. So maybe my starting point is this. If today was the day I'm get better at negotiation. Where do I start?

1:05 Yeah, well uh the first thing is uh let the other side go first. And then is the difference Uh actually listening. Is a challenge. 'Cause they're

1:16 When the other person's talking there's times you want to jump in. It's almost impossible to resist. It's Basically there are five, six steps to get becoming a better listener. The real challenge comes at step two. It's a hijack point. Um

1:34 If you're listening at all. As opposed to completely focusing on your internal dialogue where you're waiting to speak. Most people get past that stage. But if you're listening at all, you're listening to Rebut. Uh huh.

1:50 Uh here's where you're wrong. Uh the urge to correct is irresistible. I mean like it's Insanely impossible to overcome. So you'll jump in there to hijack the conversation to correct.

2:04 The urge to correct is so irresistible that we actually use it as one of our negotiation skills. I'll I'll say something wrong. On purpose. Because you will not be able to resist The years to correct me with the truth. And it's a great way for me to trigger getting hidden information out of you.

2:25 Then you won't regret giving me because you won't Is the old saying, We don't remember what we said, we remember how we felt in the moment. Dare's to correct is so satisfying. That you'll never regret telling me something you shouldn't have told me because it felt so good in the moment. So that's that's the powerless hijack moment, uh um the hijack to correct.

2:48 Now the other thing that you'll you'll do frequently is Hijack to relate. And it's called story stealing and you won't You won't mean to do it. But um the other person will say something, it triggers this incredible memory in you. Of a past experience. Something that happened to you. It's one of the fallacies of common ground.

3:08 And you'll completely be unable to resist. That urge to jump in. To tell me your story. Oh my God, the same thing happened to me. And you'll feel incredibly good in that moment.

3:23 Not realizing how squashed I see you. And it's one of the peop one of the reasons why people refer to it as story stealing. Because it feels so good to you, you can't imagine. that what I feel is like wow, you had to have a better story than me. You had to one up me.

3:40 Get it better than me. And You can't imagine that that's the case because the memory it triggered in you was so good. So Mm.

3:50 mm actually listening through that hijack moment is one of the big challen one of probably the single biggest challenge of becoming a better negotiator'cause you gotta listen some somebody all the way through and then And here's how powerful it is to make somebody feel heard. Because just because Uh you've been heard doesn't mean you Feel her.

4:11 Just because I do understand Does it mean that you feel understood? Hm. So Uh I'm at a wedding a couple weeks ago in Ireland.

4:22 And It's my first substantive conversation with the bride. Uh The night of the uh after the wedding ceremony. Uh and as as you could imagine.

4:34 She's unconscious on her feet. She's making the rounds to the wedding reception, dinner. She's obligated to speak to everybody. 'Cause that's what brides gotta do, it's a bride and groom. We're supposed to walk around.

4:47 Say hello to everybody, make'em feel happy that they were there and Thank him for showing up. And All I'm doing when I'm talking to her is my first real conversation with her. Is telling her

5:00 what she went through that day. Um I'm telling her what she went through. I said, You know, this this is this is probably It's probably easier to run a small country in South America than it was to pull off this wedding. And you know, you're here to celebrate the union of two families. And your your husband is here'cause he's gotta be.

5:19 You know. So I'm laying all this out to her. All of the of what she's going through showing her completely that I understood everything that she went through leading up to that point. She runs into me the next night at dinner.

5:33 And she walks up to me and she gives me this Big hug. And she says. I have no memory of what you said to me last night. I just remember how good it made me feel.

5:46 And that's the power. Of Making somebody feel understood. She literally couldn't remember a word. But she felt bonded to me.

5:56 Because I thoroughly understood her. That's the challenge of making and the the mission and the goal of making feel somebody feel completely heard and understood. You have no idea how many times I wanted to interrupt during that story. And I just knew this if I'm ever gonna do it. This is the one time I need to just Listen, the way you're the way you're describing. And and and also like you've you the urge congratulations on

6:21 Resisting that urge. 'Cause in the moment you had you like, I wanna speak. Right. I mean good job. That urge is huge. I have trouble resisting it sometimes.

6:33 And so you're saying that the starting point Is the scale of Truly listening. Not Waiting for your turn to talk.

6:41 Not trying to hijack the the what you call the f the fallacy of common ground where I think I'm building this bridge with you and you're like, dude, you just s sideswiped what I was trying to tell you. And you're you want to tell me about you when I was trying to tell you how I'm feeling or what I'm going through or what what's happening in my life. And so Those techniques are not even

7:02 I mean negotiation is not it's just one small part of that. That just seems like How to win friends and influence people. That seems like r you know, rel it should be relationship. You know, the foundation of any kind of communication or relationship. So I is it that negotiation fundamentally is just connecting with other people? Is it that? Or is it that these skills apply to other domains? I mean, what's the right way to think about that? Well yeah, it's across the board. I mean and first of all negotiation

7:27 If your objective is to have a long term relationship of trust where we both prosper. Now if you complete sociopath That should be your objective. Because it's low maintenance. It's the least amount of effort.

7:43 And it's the maximum amount of money. And I make I'm you know, I I get A number of people. I got one of our top level coaching clients. Said, I have made so much more money being collaborative than I ever made being carthrup. Your relationships

8:00 You make deals faster, your relationships flow more smoothly. That should be your goal. Like you you if you're the most mercenary person in the world and the Only thing you care about is making money. Then that's the fastest, easiest way to make the money.

8:16 But not that's not everybody's definition. Most people think of it as win lose, you know, battle of arguments. I'm gonna get the upper hand on you. I'm gonna ha I'm gonna have you over a barrel. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna force you to do what I want, you know, the the people power negotiations, if you will. That that puts you out of business. You lose you lose friends, you lose Claire Bears, you lose colleagues. All right, let's take a quick break because we got something for you. You know, we pinned a survey to one of our videos and we asked

8:43 What's the biggest challenge you have right now in your business? And the number one thing that you guys said was getting your first hundred customers. That was the most popular response. And it's of course that's the challenge because if you can't get to a hundred customers, you're definitely not gonna get to a thousand. So what the team at HubSpot did was they went through all the old episodes and they heard the stories where I talked about how I got customers for my first business, how Sam did it for his first business, and some of the guests that came on and talked about what they did, how they scrapped and clawed and got those initial hundred customers to get the ball rolling. And then they put those together in a report. It's a PDF, it's totally free, and you can get it and it'll give you some inspiration, some ideas around how you might be able to go get your first hundred customers. Check it out. It's in the description below. So what is the right way to think about negotiating?'Cause in my mind, you know, my simpleton brain If I th imagin a p a great negotiator, if you said think about the best negotiator, I think of somebody who's either

9:32 very powerful, maybe slightly even intimidating, or they're just very charismatic. They're able to sort of manipulate, win the other side over And I definitely default to a win lose dynamic. I'm trying to get as much as I can and they're trying to get as much as they can. And let's see who wins this negotiation. Whether I'm buying a car, I'm going and getting a Nintendo off of uh Craigslist or whatever it is. I'm that's the the default for me. And so how d how did you do relationships if you're I mean, maybe this just doesn't apply, but if you're a hostage negotiator, I I mean, are you trying to have a relationship with these people that's somebody you've never known and they're

10:05 Clearly, you know, off the rocker if they're taking hostages and hostages. Let's make that simpler to start with. Okay, let's let's say it's not the first person I would think of when I say I want a long term relationship with this person. And so can you tell me a story about maybe I don't know, your first high stakes. hostage negotiation and how you approached it and I guess what the mindset is there. Well I I learned f uh three things, I suppose. Um To start with, I learned

10:33 Uh the application of empathy. From a crisis hotline. And Mm what we now refer to as tactical empathy. Um but just you know, demonstrating understanding.

10:45 Not understanding, but demonstrated understanding. In a way that the other side feels heard and draws them into telling you more. removes you as a threat. First move in a negotiation is to remove yourself as a threat,'cause why would they make a great deal with you if you're a threat? Why would They they they might make a deal with you if you're a threat, but they're not gonna make a great deal with you.

11:09 So one of the one of the first really counterintuitive moves is to remove yourself as a threat. And a hostage negotiator does that with a not a threatening voice. Calming, soothing. Late night FMDJ voice. And Expressing genuine concern

11:27 For the bad guy. Like uh I'm I'm I'm here to get everybody out. That includes you, Mr. Bay. No. Whether or not you let me get you out. is gonna be up to you.

11:41 But that's my objective, first first of all, and I need to find out whether or not You're good with that. Some some bad guys wanna die. I need to know that right away. Now here's the kind of crazy counterintuitive thing when you talk about relationships. Hostage negotiators have repeat customers. So

12:02 I may not see you again, but if I get you out alive, another negotiator's going to. Which means if I lied to you, if I deceived you. If I didn't take the time to understand you. That's gonna be your experience when you run across the next guy and things are probably gonna go bad. So in point of fact, you know, the the whole idea of a long term relationship, I I I gotta I gotta be willing to

12:30 Step in to be open with that. And you're gonna be bad guys gonna be able to smell that. What was your first big case, first big situation where you you had to deal with a a hostage situation and you came out

12:44 Um with a successful outcome. Uh it was a very rare event that I was lucky enough to get involved in, a bank robbery. With hostages. Where we trapped them inside with the hostages. And so what happened? You get the call that this is going down.

13:00 And W I mean just t well I mean what was that like? Tell me tell me about it. So we didn't get the call. We we became aware of it and we just went. Which is a a really A philosophy that I live by which is called run the trouble.

13:15 Mm. And it's it's amazingly liberating if your philosophy is to run to trouble. Okay. And so we ran into trouble. We showed up.

13:25 Uh Uh since it's a bank. FBI and NYPD are showing up. Um the negotiation teams on both sides knew each other really well. We had a great relationship. We had a bank robbery task force in New York at the time, so the the P D and the Bureau were already aligned on the criminal prosecution.

13:45 So the two negotiations teams blended? And uh the first hostage negotiator on the phone was a was a P D detective. I was his coach. the PD commander was in charge of the Negotiation operations center on the inside.

14:01 the bureau's lead negotiator or coordinator at the time. Went to the outside in any event any um voice to voice bullhorn stuff was needed. We negotiated for a number of hours. uh the commander uh decided um to Sort of

14:19 Disrupt. the dynamic a little bit. It was stalemated at a very low threat level. And so he pulled the P negotiator and he put me on the phone with the bad guys. And I had one of the bank uh one of the bank robbers out about ninety minutes later.

14:34 What'd you start with when you got on the phone? We went disruptive. to start with, which is was not the usual protocol. The commander's sensed Uh Hugh McAllen. Great instincts.

14:48 Great instincts. He listened long enough to realize that the secret to gaining the upper hand in the conversation was gonna be how each conversation closed. Bad guy was constantly Saying, Hey, I gotta go.

15:01 They're coming, they're gonna hear me. Or I gotta I gotta put John Hall, or I'll put you on speaker. And and he just get off the phone. So we said um No matter what happens. You extend every call, you end every call.

15:15 He tries to get off the phone. I don't care what you gotta do, you keep on the phone five, seven, ten seconds longer than you in the call. We're gonna take control of this by taking control of the end. And the other thing we normally the normal hand off is hand a hand a phone up to the next negotiator. And the next negotiator does a an elaborate summary of everything that's been set up to now. Because what you anticipate is a bad guy saying, like Oh, Chris, who's this Chris guy? Does he even know what the hell's going on? Right. And so normally Chris gonna say, Hey, I've been sitting here for a long time and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

15:49 Some up to speed. You don't have to Why do you hand it off at all? It could be for a variety of reasons. Normally it's to take a harder line. Okay. No negotiation team.

16:01 Whether it's business or hostage. hands the negotiator off to another negotiator to be nicer. Ever. Business or hostage.

16:14 If there's a change in negotiation negotiators on the other side It is Always to take a harder line. Always. And why why is it better to hand it off to somebody else who'll take the harder line versus you yourself escalating to a harder stance?

16:31 It's gonna catch the other side off guard a little. Uh it's destabilizing without necessarily being threatening right away. And If I've been a pushover up to now and suddenly I'm demanding

16:46 You have reason to believe I've been inauthentic. You know, w which guy is the real you, the other guy or this guy? Right. So there's a there's an authenticity issue. involved.

16:59 And so how did you get'em out? You said ninety minutes later You got hostages out. What resolved it or what was the breakthrough point, the inflection point for that one? Well, I you know, um I threw the f the first guy was high highly manipulative. negotiator.

17:14 Uh I in hindsight I now refer to him as the great Corporate CEO negotiator. Uh a great corporate CEO. If you're in negotiations with'em, it it would be like Oh my God, you know, my board's gonna fire me if I make a bad deal. You know, I mean there's my board is gonna kill me if I agree to that. You know, blaming people that are not in the room.

17:34 So that that guy doesn't get cornered. Diminishing His influence at the table. Because

17:42 If he does that that that's a dude that's calling all the shots. He's just smart enough to not get cornered at the table. He's always gonna blame somebody outside the room. So the first bank robber at Chase was telling us how dangerous his colleagues were. And he he kept saying, Like, you know, these guys are crazy. Like, you know, I I'm scared of'em.

18:02 When when he was calling all the shots. So I took a harder line with him. I was taken away as Comfort level and

18:13 being more confrontational without being aggressive. He gets rattled. And while he's trying to figure out what to do, hands the phone off to w the other bank robber on the inside. Who does not like how this is going down. It was not part of his plan to be stuck in a bank.

18:32 Surrounded by snipers with fifty caliber guns that might you know Uh put a gaping hole in his forehead, which he he would No longer Could wear his favorite hat if that happened.

18:44 Like he's scared to death about getting out of there. And So I start in with them and I'm st I've still got the late night. If um DJ Voice.

18:56 Which is calming and soothing to him. And then the real critical issues Where somebody else on the team heard what was really bothering him. And they handed me a note. And I listened and I and I adjusted my stance in a moment on the note and he felt so heard and understood.

19:17 In a very short order, uh, I was meeting him out in front of the bank, he was surrendering to me. Wow. What was what was on the note? We were pressuring him to let a hostage go. They had three hostages on the inside. Shocking. That the hostage negotiators would be trying to let the bad guy get the bad guys to let a hostage go.

19:39 And the note To me said, Ask him if he wants to come out. And In In the blink of an eye, I switched from

19:51 Ask him about the hostages and letting one go to saying Do you want to come up? And his response to me was I don't know how I do it. Which is a great big giant yes.

20:06 Just just Tell me how. Get me out of here. One out. And when when we had him on that threat, then I completely focused on The consequences that he was looking at how he was gonna get out of there. He was most concerned about What was gonna happen to him in the instant he stepped out the door.

20:29 And as soon as I got enough reassurance, I almost I almost had this guy out. And then I got another note. As it turned out from the same negotiator. And then it said Tell'em you meet him outside. And I said,

20:46 You wanna just meet me up front. And he says, Yeah, I'm ready to end this shit. And so I scrambled, I w I went around, I got on the ball horn on the outside, I met him out in front of the bike. Listen up, the old playbook is slowing you down. AI.

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21:30 Get the loop marketing playbook at hubspot.com slash loop dash marketing to find out more and leave your competition behind. All right. Back to the pod. When you talk to CEOs and business people

21:44 You know, obviously different situation than a hostile negotiation. What's the first message you try to get through to him? Well, you say you have a room of a hundred Of the most You know, uh Fortune one hundred CEOs are in a room and they're all here to listen to you.

21:58 You're up on the stage. What's the first thing you really want to get through to'em? Um to make him aware That um There's information they need that they can only get at the table. I remember a long time ago somebody wrote a book.

22:13 I don't know if they call it a ten commandments of negotiation. Oh, I don't I don't remember what it was called. But I remember taking a look at it and one of the one of the commandments was and which is I completely disagree with, by the way. It is what it is. Which is Your experience.

22:31 You were not new, it's not your first rodeo. You've dealt with these people before. It is what it is. So I'll I'll ask these CEOs when are you ever in a negotiation where you don't have closely held information you don't want to reveal to the other side? Whether it's your budget Well, it's your pressures.

22:51 Deadlines on other deals, quarterly profits. Demands. From your board. When is there ever A negotiation.

23:01 where you don't have proprietary information that if the other side had it, it would change everything. Right. You always have. Yeah, like all the time. And I go I go, Okay, so that means the other side's got that too.

23:17 Which means it isn't what it it's not what it is. And the other side will tell you If they could trust you not to hurt'em with it. So Your first negotiation

23:34 Is trust. 'Cause they got stuff if they can tell you. It would change everything. And that gets people out of The perspective is I gotta make my case.

23:48 Or I gotta What's my leverage? What's their leverage? What are our giveaways? What are what are what are um A lot of executives say, you know, what are our must haves and what are our giveaways?

24:01 Well if they've got proprietary information that would change everything, then your must haves and your giveaways could be completely wrong. Right. And you have and then so you've got imperfect information. And what you wanna do is you wanna sit down and gather information.

24:19 And trust. And then rethink what the best deal looks like. And it's really hard to get experienced executives to do that because You know, I know the lay of the landscape. This is not my first rodeo. I've seen this before. Getting'em out of this is something I've seen before is a really hard thing.

24:35 Right. Okay, so that's great. So I'm a I'm a executive in that room. And I hear you and I say, Okay, first of all Even though I've been through a lot of negotiations, there's more to learn. So I'm open minded to this. Secondly I buy y I buy what you're saying, which is that

24:50 If I had more perfect information, we can make we can make a better deal that might be m mutually beneficial if we were willing to trust each other. Uh, what are the simple ways to build that trust when you do meet with the other side and they're naturally Initially gonna not. Not just be super willing to trust you. What are these simple ways to build trust?

25:09 Well the the the simplest way to build trust And gather information simultaneously. is nothing anybody's ever learned. Okay, so w basically what they're you're saying here is number one, I gotta build trust, number two, I gotta get the information. So number one, build trust.

25:28 Common ground. Let's find out what we have in common. Did you play Little League baseball growing up? Uh the the your kids, you know, you're married. What are your kids doing? You know, how many times you've been married? You know, this whole common ground thing.

25:44 Because they felt so good when they shared it. They didn't realise that they were Squash in the other side. So there's there's that's one of the worst ways to build trust. Um and then gathering information. You're taught to gather information by asking good questions.

25:59 Well, questioning somebody makes him feel cornered. Which then Diminishes trust. 'Cause nobody trusts you if you cornered them. Or interrogated him.

26:11 So Th the the counterintuitive answer is the you know the the hostage negotiators tried and true. Tool called and a hostage negotiation it was a motion label. Uh in business negotiations, just a label.

26:26 And I I I can start triggering information out of you. Right away if I sit down. And I'll take a a sense of you. And I said this to a colleague recently, I hadn't seen in months. I looked at him instead of saying hi, how are you? How are you doing today? How can I help you? And either how Nonsensical how questions.

26:45 I looked at this guy and I just I just kinda soaked him in for about Three seconds, maybe. It sounds short, but always feels like an eternity. And I said You

26:57 You seem centered. And he sat there for a second, he said. You know, I just came off the mountain. And the mountain is where I go to meditate. And I work out and he's into all this

27:12 Asian. Um Philosophies and martial arts. Which makes them feel phenomenal. You said the last time you saw me I hadn't been on a mountain in months.

27:23 And it was just wound really tight. And You know, I just came off the mountain. I've been up there for about a month. Now if I'm listening. He just told me a lot about himself.

27:37 And he also told me where he's at right now. If I just sat down and said Hey Nick, how are ya? Yeah, fine, you?

27:47 Right. Right. And you did it with a observation a label, but it was almost a compliment to it. It wasn't like you said, Oh, you seem stressed out where you get defensive, right? You You said you s you seem centered.

28:01 It is it important if it's a positive or negative label in that way? It's just gotta be what it is. Okay. Like if he just seemed stressed, I'd have said, You seem stressed. Mm-hmm. Or If he seems stressed, uh one I like when somebody seems stressed.

28:17 Is it's probably that day. And I'll say Tough day. And You can watch them.

28:29 Get their balance back. When you say that. Yeah. And so The observation's gotta be you have to observe what it is, because if if they look stressed and I go like

28:40 You seem centered. Then I'm an idiot. Okay, so you you put the label

28:48 To give some information. That was w I uh what happens next? What's what's the next move to to continue to build the trust. Yeah, well, you know, uh I'll I'll probably I may I may feed it back to him. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna sit back and you know, I'm gonna let it I'm gonna let the other person talk. And then I'm I'm gonna see if they got a next step. And then um it's it's a little bit like there's gonna be a little bit of a dance here. We may need to take a circuitous route.

29:14 We both need to be. But if you pick the route we'll get there faster. I picked the route. I you know, I don't know where where you're where you're going through, I don't know where the friction points are for you. I don't I don't know what I don't know what's gonna make you leary. I'm gonna let you pick the route'cause it's gonna be faster.

29:31 So I'm gonna sit back and wait to see if you if you pick a next step. I mean Try to trigger you to see if we can go. Is it you know, is it ridiculous to talk about what we're here? Herefore? Yeah.

29:43 So you caught that question, didn't you? Yeah. It was a no oriented question. Yeah. Instead of Do you want to talk about what we're here for?

29:54 Which you draw him for yes. 'Cause that going for yes creates friction. But going for no creates protection. Safety. No, no, it wouldn't be ridiculous for us to do that. There you go, exactly. Yeah. And so that's how uh when when I when I wanna when I wanna Maybe go someplace. I'll I'll

30:14 Trigger the decision via no versus yes. Mm-hmm. And you know, there's all these uh words when it comes to negotiation, the sort of classic words, you know, compromise. Uh w tell me but tell me your thoughts on compromise. Do you think the United States Congress

30:35 Is g deserves an A plus rating? No. But they compromise all the time, don't they? So if you think politicians are awesome. Then you think compromise is good.

30:50 And that's the crazy thing about it, because everybody preaches compromise. How do you feel about compromising your principles? Not good. It's yeah, it's it gives you an instantaneous uneasy feeling inside, right? So it's

31:07 Compromise is to by definition makes something lose lose. And that is not compatible. with a long term relationship of trust and prosperity. It's co it's compatible with being a C player.

31:25 Mediocrity. Compromise is correlates very strongly to mediocrity. And you gotta decide whether or not you're good with mediocrity. And so what's the replacement to compromise? 'Cause I don't think anybody goes in saying, I can't wait to compromise. They sort of feel like it's a necessary evil.

31:41 I guess we'll have to compromise in order for us to to agree. And I think that's where people land. So what's the More More effective, more powerful Expecting to and accepting a concepting that you need to compromise. Well, let me find out where you're c let me make you feel heard first.

32:00 If I can make you feel completely hurt on your position. My guess is More than thirty percent of the deals we made in your In in my favor on the spot. And

32:15 About half of the deals were made on the spot. Once the other side feels completely hurt. Mm. But let's say let's say it's only twenty five percent and it's it's well more than that. Alright, so now you've knocked out you've just accomplished

32:30 Uh you have to negotiate twenty five percent less.'Cause you just made the deal m by making the other person feel or just knocked twenty percent of your w work off the table. Now what happens to the remaining seventy five percent? their position's going to move closer to yours and they're going to be more honest with you about what exactly that position is. They're gonna tell you what they perceive the must haves to be.

32:55 They're gonna move away from their throwaways right away. So I'm either gonna make the deal on the spot or I'm e I'm gonna find out what we really have to negotiate about immediately. Which is also gonna save me a massive amount of time. Now There's a difference between compromise and high value trades.

33:15 And You know, I I'm not a hundred percent sure whether or not this is a great example But I like it. Steel is two percent Carbon and

33:27 Ninety eight percent iron. So let's imagine that carbon and iron were two negotiators. And he said, We gotta compromise and go fifty fifty. 'Cause we need we need a fifty percent representation here. Now in point of fact, two percent of one person's idea

33:49 And ninety eight percent of the other person's idea. made a stronger ally that mankind had never seen before. So your real challenge is What's the blend? Not the compromise.

34:05 Right. What's the blend. You know, uh there was a guy who came on this podcast and he said something great. I don't know if this aligns with your philosophy. And he said he told me something that really helped me in negotiating. He said, um You know, most people when they go into negotiation, they see themselves on one side of the table and then the other person on the other side of the table and it's sort of me versus you. And I'm tugging this one, I'm pulling this way, and you're pulling that way.

34:27 And he said, uh this is a guy who buys companies and he said the best thing we did was we realized that uh that's the wrong mental model. The right mental model is Me and you are sitting on the same side of the table and across the table is the problem. Maybe the problem is you think the price is X and I think it maybe is Y. You know, there's some problem that's preventing us from just doing this deal instantaneously. But it's not me versus you, it's Us together jointly looking at this problem on the other side of the table.

34:51 And that was a very eff like effective visual metaphor for me. Is that something you would I don't know agree with? Is that something you you you would uh you probably know more about that than I do. No, no, I agree completely. I mean for the longest time. On my side we've always said the adversary is a situation. And what you just did was explain what that model looks like. Through that example.

35:09 And it becomes very real. When you describe it that way. And uh yeah, that's a very smart way to describe it. And where does uh leverage come in come into this?'Cause uh you know, when I've negotiated, I always think about uh you know, leverage. Deals I deals I feel uh, you know, I do, but I'm not hundred percent happy with not not too happy with. It's y typically'cause I felt like

35:31 The other side had a lot more leverage in the situation, and this was my best option to go with. It was ninety eight percent their blend and two percent mine. Um, and in other situations where I have leverage or create leverage or I apply leverage, you know, I tend to feel like I do better. But is that a s is that too simplistic? Like where how do you think about the word leverage? Cause for me that's always been key in negotiation. It's not simplistic. It's a step up from Uh floundering entirely.

35:56 Two You know, uh then it's gonna sound harsh. I mean you get yourself to B level negotiator there. You'll never get you'll never get yourself to A A plus On leverage,'cause leverage is the ability to inflict harm. And if you're making deals Based on the ability to inflict harm. These these are not

36:14 Those those don't go for stable long term relationships. They don't go for The other side. Sharing information with you that'll that'll change everything because if you've got leverage, you're a threat. And why would they give you important information if you're a threat?

36:29 And vice versa. Mm. How much leverage do they have on you? Holy shit. I can't give'em I can't tell them that. They'll have more leverage. Oh my God. So It can be useful in some situations. But it'll never get you to the best.

36:45 How come. And because in many cases you can talk, you can think about when you made a better deal because of leverage. Then that becomes uh really addicting, really satisfying. And you lose track of the deals You should have made, but you didn't because you didn't have that thought you had leverage.

37:04 Or the You know, the the it's a it's a very limiting factor. It gets you you know, into uh passing grade. It just doesn't get you to the top of the class.

37:18 Gotcha. And so w uh what does get me to the top of the class? So we've talked a little bit about it, right? I Truling. Using labels to collect information plus um make the other side feel, you know, heard and understood. What else is kinda key to get me to the to the top of the mountain when it comes to negotiation? Well w what you're really negotiating, um What what people really don't understand is how important trust is, and trust is

37:44 Um based on your how predictable you are. Take out the word pre uh trust or put in the word predictability, you all automatically become more trustworthy. Because you're predictable. And so then the ability to collaborate as we deal with issues, because there's always gonna be issues. You know, the uh the making the deal is the beginning.

38:04 You gotta get into implementation. And if we don't trust each other then problems are gonna qu crop up and we're not gonna tell the other side. If we've compromised. I'm gonna resent that compromise and when problems crop up, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut'cause gonna hurt you. Because I didn't like I didn't like the leverage you used on me.

38:23 I didn't like the way you forced me into this deal. Yeah, you know what? Uh uh threaten me? Fine. Fine. Make me Cooperate.

38:35 Make me tell you about problems in the early stages as opposed to when they're turning it to The land mine has gone off. It's really an issue of you know how we're gonna do the implementation. And so the whole issue of, you know, do we start and then and then you're even gonna talk about how we're gonna pro uh cross the bridge bridges when we get to'em.'Cause there are gonna be problems.

38:55 You know, I I I'm at a training a long time ago before the book came out and the CEO said This is my um CFO. And I want you How to put clauses in contract.

39:10 That'll penalize the other side for non performing. And my thoughts was If Penalizing the other side of for non performance is your biggest problem? It started a lot sooner.

39:26 'Cause you're not making great deals if you ca you're telling me you can't get your deals to implement it. That's what you're telling me. So you need to back way up and find out what the problem was well before that. 'Cause implementation is where it's at. And if we don't trust each other If I can't count on you to

39:42 War through problems with me. Gonna cost us a lot of money. Alright, this episode is brought to you by Mercury. They are the finance platform of choice for over two hundred thousand companies. Shouldn't be surprised, because I use it myself for not one, not two. But I have eight different Mercury accounts. So I have seven for uh different companies that I'm a part of, and then I have

40:01 uh my own personal account'cause now they have personal banking, which is a really cool feature. I highly, highly recommend it. Like I said, I use it myself. Uh, and the reason why is because the way that Mercury works is beautiful. It's very intuitive. And you could tell that it's actually made by a startup founder, it's an entrepreneur. Um, you could tell it's made by somebody who used other banking products in the past. And didn't like all the different rough edges and and annoyances and decided to, you know, actually fix it himself. And really any type of entrepreneur you are, if let's say you're an agency, well, one of the things every agency has to do is be able to send invoices, easily create them, send them to customers, and stay current on your balances with all your customers. Well, you can do that inside Mercury. And so I think that Mercury's great, highly recommend you check it out.

40:38 And uh thank you for sponsoring the show. For more information, check out Mercury.com. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Check show notes for details. What are some examples of kind of the great deals you've seen. Uh, maybe the great deal makers or great deals that you've you've seen. I think Oprah's a great deal maker.

40:59 And Visible examples of that. She gets Lance Armstrong to come on T V and answer yes or no questions. Straightforward. As to whether or not he doped.

41:12 And willing that he did things. No, I'm not acquainted with Oprah. I am acquainted with Lance and I like Lance a lot. And when you look at the totality of the circumstances, you get quite a different picture th as opposed to somebody giving you a very narrow view. But anyway, the Lance Armstrong interview. He wasn't caught off guard by those questions.

41:35 That was the negotiation between him and her in advance as to Whether or not he was gonna get on camera and what she was gonna ask him. You don't see anything in the media. about Lance Armstrong being upset with Oprah Winfrey. Which means they negotiated a great deal up front that they were both good with.

41:55 And then they executed it. And it was no bad blood after the fact. That to me, that's a great deal. And that's an example and a reason why. And also and uh if you look at the totality of Oprah Think about the fact that she's dealt with some of the most difficult

42:15 To handle people on our celebrities. Who are used to getting their way at all times. And she isn't She she doesn't have any dust ups, any arguments. With any of them.

42:29 Now how is that possible? When in today's day and age, celebrities love to have Huge. With each other all the time as a way to gather attention. But that's not her m method of operation and her excess success is extraordinary.

42:46 Especially thinking about where she started. And uh I I'd take I'd take Uh some very small percentage of her network and be quite happy. Do you have a sense of what she does or how how she accomplishes that? You know, the interesting thing is it's very similar to what we did in the Chase Manhattan Bank because I was talking about a woman Tuggle with a woman in Los Angeles several years ago to work for Oprah and I'm laying all this out.

43:08 And I said the last impression is the lasting impression. Uh we did it uh the Lieutenant did it by instinct at the Chase Bank. I found out later on from uh I was at a g uh Gallup poll conference on human nature, you know the Gallup a long time. Collectivism. polling data of course they're sitting on

43:27 Decades of human performance information. And this one speaker stands up and says people don't remember things how they happened. They remember and they don't remember how it started. They remember the most intense moment and how it ended. The last impression is the lasting impression. So I'm laying this on my colleague who worked for Oprah and she says, Oh yeah, Oprah's lived by that all the t uh her whole life. She says in in the entertainment business

43:54 The joke is in an Olymp, out in a taxi, as soon as they get what they want from you, you know, you're out hitching out front, finding your own way out. But at Oprah it was in an Olemo, out in a Limo. And the philosophy was no matter what happened on any interaction. No matter what. You had to make sure they felt respected, heard, appreciated, and loved.

44:17 At the very end. And I've had several conversations related to me when Oprah didn't see something eye to eye with somebody else and her last words are Well always No matter what, I will always love you and I will always be supportive of you. Mm. And the last impression is the lasting impression, and she's she's a master of.

44:37 How do you um prep for an interview for uh negotiations. So you let's say you're gonna go try to make a deal. And some people have this idea of like a What's it called? Batna, or the best alternative to whatever. Uh, you know, they they sort of think about their their desired outcome and then the worst case scenario they're gonna accept. Other people do lots of research and they try to

44:57 try to you know find as much as they can about the other party to be, you know, fully armed when they walk in. Um some people do power moves. How how do you prepare for for something that's a negotiation in the business sense? In the business context? It's gonna be a combination of two things. I'm gonna first of all I'm gonna think about Um what negatives you're gonna harbor about me in advance. And I'm and and I'm not gonna and everybody everybody's got that. Actually, interestingly enough, everybody could do this right away. Even if it's a first interaction.

45:27 What are the things you want to deny? I don't want you to think that I'm gonna be greedy. I don't I don't want you to think I'm I'm a I'm a slimy salesperson. I don't want you to think that I'm here to maximize my opportunity. I don't want you to think I'm I'm wasting your time. That uh I always tell people What would you want to deny walking in? That's your gun instinct telling you a negative is there.

45:47 And you make the shift from a denial to the straight observation. Like I'm probably gonna seem green. I'm probably just gonna seem like another slimmy sales person. I'm probably gonna s seem like somebody that's wasting your time. That then instantly makes me

46:03 The straight shooter. The honest person. And so I'm gonna think about What negatives you gonna You were likely harboring.

46:16 Because the brain is seventy five percent negative and that's a fastest way to m for me to build a relationship. deactivate the negatives and make me look like a straight shooter, which increases your trust in me. And then there's gonna be some stuff that you're gonna be thinking about. That you're gonna be offended if I don't appreciate

46:36 And you're gonna be offended if I don't appreciate how hard you work. Um the fact that Then I'm talking to you at all means you have value. And then you have legitimate reasons in your own right to be respected and admired. And it's taking

46:56 What a lot of people would refer to as flattery. But then articulating that it's not vacuous flattery, it's genuine appreciation from where you're coming from. And I might say something like you worked very hard to get to where you are today.

47:14 You have been in this business for a very long time. And you know what you're doing. Otherwise if you didn't, you wouldn't be sitting here in front of me at all. And you have things that are valuable and worthy of my attention and of my respect. And you put those two things together and you kinda got empathy.

47:34 Mm. That's what you were calling tactical empathy earlier. Right. Yeah. 'Cause the it there's there's brain science that backs up that approach. Particularly.

47:45 Starting with the negatives before the positives. Right. And why is it so important for p I mean, this is gonna sound like a dumb question, but like I it it just seems like it's the most important thing. So I wanna talk a little bit more about it, which is Why is it so important for somebody to feel understood and heard?

48:03 And why do we default it seems like what we default to is I can't wait to make my case so that so that you understand me and I feel hurt. Right. Like it seems like the biggest swing I could make as a negotiator is to let go of my need of that, or at least initial need of that and really hone in on your need for that.

48:23 And if I just did that one switch, I'm a much better a much better trust builder and therefore A much better negotiator. Uh when it comes is that the right uh summary uh from what you said? Yeah, you know, it it really is. And it's fascinating to think about the fact that People come to the table with such a desire to be heard.

48:45 And to make their case. They can't imagine that's what's driving the other side. It's blinding. And um Neuroscience wise.

48:58 What difference does it make to make somebody feel hurt? I will trigger To release uh in you of your neurochemicals, oxytocin and seroton. If you get a hit of oxytocin In interacting with me. You're gonna bond with me.

49:15 And you're gonna be far more honest with me. Oxytocin does it's bonding and truth. Serotonin is a drug a satisfaction. Which means you're gonna be less demanding. So if I can make you feel heard, you're bond with me, you're more honest with me, and you're less demanding. That's pretty good start for a negotiation.

49:33 Hm. How does uh how does Chris Voss You know, buy a car. How do you do it? Uh any uh implementation of any of your techniques that on like the low stakes stuff. We've seen the Huston negotiation, but like

49:52 What do you do when you're on Craigslist? Do you need a couch or you're you know, you're at the market. Yeah, well, you know, I I tell the other side. Um Why what they Uh

50:02 Selling? is worth what they're asking. You know, I make their case. 'Cause that's what they're gonna say to me. So what I've done is I've just now

50:15 Left them with nothing to say. And then Like See, I can I can I can

50:25 I can pound you down on price. I mean I I And I still If I choose to be, I can be

50:34 I can really pound you down. But I better never need to come back to you for anything. And there are a few deals that are complete one offs. So If I'm buying a car.

50:51 Depending upon who I'm buying it from. I will tell you I do not have great regard for car dealerships across the board. I no longer ever get any vehicle I own serviced at a car dealership. I don't care what the warranty says because I don't trust'em. So I don't mind paddling down a car daily. Right. I got no problem with that.

51:15 And I w and I will do that to them. I will I will make their case And then I will become very passive aggressive and you know, my favorite is how am I supposed to how am I supposed to pay that? Well You would have said

51:30 All the things that I just got done saying. If I hadn't said him first. But now if I said all if I if I took away all the wind out of your sails, took all the bullets out of your gun. Then when I give you the opportunity to point the gun at me, you got empty you got empty chambers. You got nothing to say.

51:48 Yeah, I know. And you're dealing on a margin and in in real short order, I'm gonna get you down to your bottom line. Uh and then if I like it, we'll make a deal. If I don't I'm walking out. But I better ne I better n I better not ever need to come back to you because once I've killed you on price, you are not gonna forget that and you are not gonna lift a finger to help me ever again. Right. Yeah.

52:12 Okay. What about other um sort of day to day negotiations? This is I I got little kids. I have a five year old, a four year old, and a one year old. And so my h my most frequent negotiation is with them. And I'm just curious, do you have any uh Parenting negotiation tips. Maybe it's just don't negotiate at all, but uh I don't know. I find myself in that pickle a lot. No, well, you know, with your kids, uh This is the you know, there are ages.

52:37 Um for thinking. If you will. But you're what you're really trying to do as a as um as a parent is help your kids think. And so recognizing Where they are in the stages.

52:50 I heard a long time ago. Up page five. Treat a kid like a king. Five to fifteen. You know, working like an intentioned servant.

52:59 At fifteen, let him go. There's a lot of brain science that ca that overlaps very closely with that in the development of the brain. But all along the way is you You want your kids to feel slightly challenged.

53:15 You want him to get him to think. Now do they have the ability to process that at about age four, slash, five, six they start to cross over into ages where they're starting to process that. And uh what a lot of parents wanna do is just order kids around. Like go to bed'cause I'm dad I'm uh why because I said so. I'm because I'm the father, that's why. Right.

53:39 Well that's not It's not really helping them think. Um it's demonstrating to them that the only way you can get stuff done is by through the use of force. That doesn't mean you want to put up with bad behavior either. One of my favorite videos is some you know, this mom trying to talk her

53:56 five year old son into getting in the into backseat of the SUV. And she's come on, you know, and he's crying and make a noise and his nine year old sister walks up and grabs him and throws him in the SUV and they get up they and they leave. You know, at some point in time you gotta toss the kid in the car.

54:15 Um, but in the meantime, you know, your your your job as a parent is to help them clink. And And It's not to shield them. But it's to challenge them and make'em better people, help them thick.

54:28 And after all these years of helping people be better negotiators And you Teach certain you know. Techniques and certainly. Framework for for this.

54:38 What do you think is the most Easy to implement. of all of the frameworks, meaning the easiest way to get points on the board and start the process of improving in this area. Well, it it it's really gonna be the different ways to repeat back to somebody what they just said. um you know label your

54:57 We were focusing on their emotions or affect. Mirrors and paraphrases focuses specifically on what they said. It seems Like it's a waste of time. And it ends up being a relationship accelerator.

55:13 Which then is a deal making celebrator. So how do you do it? Um, the more you can make somebody feel hurt, the less you could be a threat. And there yeah, it's sometimes charm is involved.

55:25 Charm and empathy are very close. Yeah. But who's the most interesting at the table? If I make you think I'm the most interesting person Okay, cool. We had a great conversation. But are we gonna make great deals.

55:38 Now, if I made you think you're the most interesting person. our likelihood for collaboration is very high. Right. And h how do you find that balance or do you need a balance between um Like my business partner Ben, he's like this. He goes into a lunch

55:55 He asks uh so many questions'cause he's genuinely curious. And he's he you tends to know a lot about the other person and what they're interested in because he's paid attention. He observes He remembers what they said, he remembers where they went, and he's just so he'll feed them things that he knows they're interested in. Not to manipulate them, he's just that's like who he is. I don't know. It's his nature is to be that way. And he leaves the lunch and they've talked ninety eight percent of the time and he's talked two percent of the time. He's asked them a couple of questions. He knows everything about them. They know nothing about him.

56:24 And they go, This was amazing. We gotta do this again. This was one of the b this is so fun. I would love to do this again. And you know, the he comes back. At the same time I'm curious if there's uh a sort of a downside to going too far in that direction where you know, you haven't sort of demonstrated value or um You know

56:44 provided the other side with an uh you know sort of a almost like a in tech like an API connection, like an ability to understand what your needs are and how they might be able to help or intersect with what you what you do. Um, is there a danger in going too far down the kind of like Let the other side talk route. Uh well, first of all, curiosity is the superpower. Um like it and it in

57:06 It like it is a superpower. Like it's ridiculous. uh where it shows up in terms of your survival, their survival, long term relationships. your um resilience, your ability to discover new things. My curiosity, yeah, I can tell you so many different ways it's a superpower. So now what's the danger?

57:23 At some point in time we gotta keep in mind while we're talking. And If you get too curious Then We have a finite amount of time. We got an hour to be there.

57:34 Oh. If I if we got uh an hour together and we get nothing accomplished, what are you gonna remember? You really enjoy the conversation, but we didn't get anything done, so you might feel like it was a waste of your time. Mm. You have to be aware of the progress that has to be made. And

57:51 Uh my team, what we always do is we set finite periods of time for meetings. Period. And we never go over. It doesn't matter where we are. We'll we'll set another meeting before we'll go over a meeting because Time is this commodity that is so limited.

58:11 That if I don't help you manage your time and your interactions with me, then pretty soon you're gonna start avoiding me. Well speaking of you seem like a guy who uh is very conscious of his time, I wanna make sure we it looks like we're eleven minutes over. So I wanna make sure that I didn't mind, I enjoyed the conversation. I I do wanna tell some people about some stuff. Yeah, tell please. So we've started this new thing called the black swan. negotiation community.

58:35 And you go to our website and find it. And It really is an approd. Amazon one stop shopping. for where you are in your negotiation journey. It's you can't afford anything.

58:53 Come into the community because membership is free and get started. getting a return on the investment of your time. In terms of dollars. So No.

59:05 Get started on your journey. Incremental change can be monumental very quickly. Awesome. Well, Chris, thank you so uh so much for coming on. Also for I don't know all the content that you put out over the years. I've always picked in Picked and chewed on different little bits of it, especially whenever I was In the process of either raising money or selling my company It was these very brief periods of time, maybe f three weeks, four weeks, six six weeks

59:28 Where the value of my years of effort would swing by fifty percent, depending on how good I was at negotiating and understanding. you know, the other side and being able to find a a mutually beneficial deal. So it's one of these arts where It can make a really big difference in a very small amount of time being, you know, the difference between being bad at it versus good at it versus great at it. And so I I I appreciate you coming on and helping us be a little better at it today. It was a pleasure. I enjoyed the conversation.

59:55 I feel like I can rule the world and no way What I want to I put my law in it like my day song on the road, less travel, never looking back. All right, let's take a quick break because as you know, we are on the HubSpot Podcast Network, but we're not the only ones. There's other podcasts on this network too, and maybe you like them. Maybe you should check them out. One of them that I want to draw your attention to is called Nudge by Phil Agnew. And whether you're a marketer or a salesperson and you're looking for The small changes you can make, the new habits you could do, the the small decisions you could make that will make a big difference. That's what that podcast is all about. Check it out. It's called Nudge.

1:00:28 And you can get it wherever you get your podcasts.

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