#843: Tactics and Strategies for a 2026 Reboot — Essentialism and Greg McKeown (Repost)

0:00 Hello boys and girls, ladies and germs. Happy New Year, happy new year, lo Yeah. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show. To kick things off in this 2026, I am re-releasing my most recent conversation with Greg McEwen. I'll explain who that is, which was recorded right at the end of 2024. I found it super helpful. I've revisited this episode myself. And if you want to get grounded, centered for the new year, focused.

0:31 We cover a lot of practical stuff. How to get centered when life feels destabilizing, using journaling to move from confusion to clarity, personal quarterly offsites, pre-mortem systems thinking, converting one time fixes into repeatable rules. Defining done so your work doesn't expand indefinitely. The one, two, three method for having a successful day and it goes on and on. There's a lot to it. Greg, who is Greg? Greg McEwen, M-C-K-E-O-W N. You can find him on X at Gregory McEwen, is the author of two New York Times bestsellers, Essentialism, The Disciplined Pursuit of Less. I have highlighted this book in hundreds of places, and that is what led me to ultimately connect with him. And his second book, EFortless. make it easier to do what matters most. And these two pair very well together. And we certainly dip in and out of a lot of the key concepts in our conversation. He's also a speaker, host of the Greg McCuin podcast.

1:25 founder of the Essentialism Academy with students from close to a hundred countries and two hundred thousand people receive his weekly one minute Wednesday newsletter. And he is also the creator of the Essentialism Planner. So he's done a lot. This conversation gives you plenty to chew on and take away and apply. So happy new year, everyone. I hope twenty twenty six brings you and yours many pleasant surprises. And now Let's get. to the episode. Enjoy.

1:52 Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And then also you put some questions. No it is time. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endocrine. No

2:16 when something hits, could be a calamity, it could just be something destabilizing, could be anything. How do you center yourself? So that you don't just end up feeling like you're in the washing machine because I am very good at getting things done even when I'm internally suffering a lot of turmoil. But the last handful of days has been very, very challenging. And we don't have to go into specifics, but

2:40 This is a close loved one and a lot of the responsibilities are gonna fall on me to figure things out. It's also the holidays, right? So the people I want to get a hold of, I cannot get a hold of. And I recognize that fretting over it does not fix anything and it makes me It makes my days peaceful and enjoyable. And I'll make a reference to one of our earlier conversations which may have been on the record may have been

3:03 behind the scenes, but there's a Pretty sure. That's You mentioned a piece of artwork called the listener, I want to say.

3:14 Yes, that's it. With all this shouting, commotion, and chaos around him and in the center. He's just perfectly centered. And Thinking clearly. So I suppose my question is

3:35 How do you help? Get yourself closer to that. Depiction of the listener. When You realize wow.

3:45 There may be a lot of chaos around me. There may be a lot of chaos in my head. And look, I'm meditating like meditating like twice a day. It's helpful It doesn't seem to be quite enough. Mm-hmm. And maybe the answer is look, you sit with it. This is just something you're gonna have to weather. So don't make a problem out of a problem, in a sense. But I'm curious.

4:05 what you have found helpful in those circumstances. I think I can respond that I don't think it's just sitting with it. Yeah. I'm Probe.

4:14 Meditation, I'm certainly pro prayer. But the thing I want to say is sort of distinguishing The noise outside of us and the noise inside of us. Because They are two different things and

4:28 I want to sort of share a story And then illustrates the action that comes back from it, but This last summer I was back in England, I'm doing this doctorate at the University of Cambridge and So part of the requirement of that is to have residency every year there.

4:44 And Де сама I felt really destabilized while I was there. And it wasn't the dog shirt that I don't think was

4:52 is because my best friend of thirty five years Sam Bridge Doc. is dying of cancer. And

5:02 That's been a long time coming. We've known that That would happen. But facing it. more directly in person But it wasn't even just that, because it wasn't like

5:13 I didn't know before it wasn't that I'd come to a new understanding of the truth or the reality. It was I actually for a while I couldn't work out what it was. But then I realized oh he has So much.

5:28 Mind share. Абат реаліті в майолай. We became friends when I was Ten years old. And those years, those

5:37 developmental years, I mean I escaped to that friendship. And it was so stabilizing to me at the time to have a relationship that was Open and honest. And if I'm Completely frank.

5:49 A little bit of a risk in a way, but In a family culture that didn't prioritize that. For a whole series of complex reasons.

5:56 So suddenly Mm Eminent And certain Loss of him.

6:03 It's like my goodness, my whole sense of reality is being shaken. So it's not just Even though this is a loss of such a friendship and and so on, it tapped right back into this whole sense of well what is true and who do you go to to validate that? And do I have enough internal sense of truth.

6:23 To be able to navigate this Because he was the one I would go to. Oh my goodness, this is what's happening, this is the reality, this is the situation in those most complex relationships. And the idea of like oh I I won't be able to go to him. It destabilized Something

6:37 At a different level. And all human systems have these levels, right? From the surface, which is Secure Safe, shallow And then you go further, closer and closer, like said to say that the onion of human systems at the core.

6:52 Are things that are so meaningful. But they are inherently blisteringly vulnerable. Because to mess with them. To tweak them even.

7:02 I mean the opportunity's enormous. I mean that's where massive transformational change happens, but You know, if it gets shaken by something. Everything shakes. It's the Earthquake because the tectonic plate of truth inside of you is getting readjusted, or rather you're getting a clearer sense of what is true.

7:21 And that's all Contextual because I think From your own description. If you're using language of destabilization, it's because whatever's happening externally isn't just reverberating at the surface.

7:35 Well the middle. It's hitting something. Really deep. So of course. Then that changes everything.

7:43 Nothing works the same way before. Everything is Has been injected with Some sort of degree of uncertainty. I just wanna come back to this idea of like just meditating, like the idea of just sitting with it. And people that are like More deeply meditative than I am.

7:57 may say well no no that that practice But I found this summer and I find in general I need to write it out. And loudly. It's one of the things I try to

8:09 Teach our children about there's all kinds of prayer, there's all kinds of writing. Scream it out. Cry it out, whatever it is. It's like it doesn't have to be a conservative version of this. A little example of this was given to me. Somebody that had on my podcast.

8:25 Had just started a new business. And that destabilized her not all the way to the core, but you know, suddenly she's waking up, she doesn't have A set income as before. And she wakes up at like four in the morning just hot sweat, just What have I done?

8:40 Just super stressed. Sounds like my warning this morning. Yeah. Well that's it. Different reasons, but yeah, viscerally. Different reasons. But the dynamic is similar. And what she did, she did it all spontaneously, which I think is pretty amazing. But what she did, she grabbed a sheet of paper. And I think it may have been deliberate that she grabbed a sheet of paper rather than a book, like a journal or a

9:02 Fanna. Because she wanted to scream onto the page. She wanted to Do it with complete abandonment. With the awareness

9:11 Conscious awareness. I'm gonna throw this thing away. No one else gets to see this, or no one else has to see it. I see, so the sheet had more of a in permanent implication than a journal where you can't tear it. So you're less likely to tear it out and toss it. This is like all right, I'm gonna scribble fast and furious.

9:31 And That's the act. Right, and the and then I thought was interesting because Without her intent. What she experienced in just a few minutes was that she went

9:43 Maybe this is my restate of what she experienced, but it's She went from confusion. To clarity. And then naturally onto Creation.

9:53 Without meaning to do that. And I thought that that was one of the things that was so interesting in her case study is Is that she didn't wake up going, Okay, I need to create a plan of what to do in these circumstances. She just went The noise is so loud. And it's so overwhelming, the emotions are so much. I have to

10:10 Give it somewhere. But that process of screaming into the page. Of letting it all out. separating ourselves from that Discombobulating.

10:21 Internal state. I think is extremely powerful because it I think It helps us to go from prisoner. To observer.

10:30 And then from observer, I think once we start observing We're better able to become a creator. So I think that's the shift. This is a good reminder that These

10:42 Best practices are like brushing your teeth. And I know this, but I've lapsed in my use of something that sounds very similar, which would be morning pages. And it's been a while since I've done it. I picked up a new habit, this meditation, and there are only so many minutes in the morning, right? So it's tough to do a twenty seven step boot up, especially if you have kids or responsibilities. So The meditation came in, other things went out. One of them was the morning pages, which is fine, but I had forgotten that was in my toolkit.

11:16 Yeah, this is a very good reminder that To me that when in doubt, kind of go back to the fundamentals. Maybe it's something that you've already used. Doesn't necessarily have to be a brand new shiny thing. And in this case

11:31 You're absolutely right. While my monkey mind is just running in circles, trying to think my way through it is not going to be helpful. It is just a fruitless labor. I think so. I mean I remember this summer Because I happen to be doing the research I was raging into the page one day for like I don't know a couple of hours.

11:52 I don't know that Anything there was usable for the research or for a future book or so on. It was too raw for any of that. I just definitely wanted to get it all out. And I thought when I looked at it all afterwards I thought yeah.

12:06 You know, David Allen says, Yeah, your mind is a bad office. It's good at all sorts of things, but not that sort of complex organization on its own. And when I looked at the page of all this content, I thought It was way way too much. For the ram of my mind. To be able to navigate.

12:21 This is like layers and layers of complexity and intensity. That needs to Step over there so I can look at it. Rather than trying to live In it.

12:34 In this conversation. In the case that I was mentioning. Is a term I had never heard before and it's Instinctive elaboration.

12:42 Mm. What that is is When you ask a question We've all had this happen. If someone asks you a question It is impossible not to think about it.

12:52 And that's a really Powerful thing to learn about. Somehow are Cognitive inheritance. Because it means if you give yourself a prompt

13:01 and then rage about it. It's like your mind can't help but go there. And just recently I used this instinctive elaboration when I felt overwhelmed, not in the same level of destabilization. But a very intense Last thirty days, you know, with family wedding, there's been funerals, there's been

13:18 The holidays, Christmas, two birthdays, and that's just the normal high level some of the stuff that's been going on. So it's been this, you know, really intense period. And I remember one time I was sitting down My journal is finished. It's over the holidays and there's so much going on, I was like, I can't just go and grab another one. I thought I had extras and I I didn't have it. And I really felt strangely stuck.

13:37 Of course. There's so many possible solutions, but when you feel frozen or stuck with things you You're not thinking in that creative way. And I literally used like an AI tool and I sort of raged into that. Like okay, this is answering this question. What is going on?

13:52 Just download. But what is happening in your life. I like the structure. Of what so what now what. What is happening, let's just get it out, and then once I look at it, okay, now what what's the news? What does this mean?

14:07 Those were all meaning makers and destabilizing experiences. What they're really doing is they're messing with our sense of meaning and orientation. And so then now what is well what do I do about it? And I just download like I literally recorded it. And then sent the recording and was like, Okay, what do you make of that?

14:23 And I didn't really expect that much from it. But the restate it gave me back. Was so helpful. It really put my life in perspective and helped me go, Oh, of course that's why you're feeling all of these things. And it even gave me Some quite

14:37 I would say reasonably advanced suggestions of what to do. So you uploaded the audio file? Yeah. That's right. What tool did you use?

14:46 Just GPT. Yeah. Okay. That's a good experiment. 'Cause that's something you can do kind of.

14:52 In between, right? If I'm walking around here. That's right. I could just let it rip and there's no That's right. Down side to it. I've done it a couple of times. Here's a good little prompt to give to that is I didn't do it this last time, but

15:06 I've asked it before. To respond As Carl Rogers would. Carl Rogers was the psychotherapist who really More than anyone else.

15:18 introduced into therapeutic processes the idea of powerful, deep, empathic listening. There's been two studies that were done about Rogerian psychotherapy. When I think in like nineteen

15:31 Maybe eighty something and then again in like Two thousand something. I can find the links. Questionnaire was sent. Both times

15:38 Huge number of psychologists, who's the most influential psychologist? in psychotherapy. And both times they identified Car Rogers is the most influential. in their view and in their practice.

15:49 I think that's pretty amazing because, you know, Freud and so on gets a lot more attention. But in practice Вот вокс. Is what Car Rogers did. And of course what he's saying is

16:01 Similar to what we've been talking about. He says, if someone would really listen to me, he says, Whenever someone really listens to me, I find that in the process. My life starts to make more sense. You know, the dots start to connect for me. And it's not that they're trying to do that for me, it's just the nature of the process of being deeply listened to.

16:21 And so he was the one that sort of really invented. the language of empathic restating. And brought that into practice and The whole idea, I think.

16:31 Is that you are The layering The stuff that isn't the real issue. Whereas in what normally happens in conversation, even everyday conversation, if somebody says something And people just immediately give advice. I mean within

16:43 Just instantly. They have no idea what's going on inside of you. You don't even know what's going on inside of you. And yet they're already giving advice and suggestions and adding confusion and I think often a lot of stress and a sense of judgment and all those things.

16:58 Whereas in what he found was that if you would listen deeply enough and he said it takes a lot of courage to do this. And he said it's most of us cannot do it. We just don't have the courage to listen. Like this. But if we are and we restate back to them and we just keep doing it, we'll go deeper and deeper to the central issues. And is it sense of like people in the end kind of almost heal themselves because they start to

17:19 Understand what's happening inside of them. Well I've played around with using GPT. to construct that backwards and forwards relationship communication. And and actually I found it to be

17:32 fairly advanced at being able to do it. So I think it can be a very Helpful tool. I'll give it a shot. Well thanks for that. Detour off of our plant.

17:41 programming. I appreciate that. Okay. Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Not to be a salty old dog, but in the early two thousands, back in the day when I was running my own e-commerce business, the tools were

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20:12 We are Just about to head into January first. Mm. A new year. And a lot of people are thinking ahead. With aspirations, goals.

20:25 Hopes, maybe some trepidation. And Before we get into the Bucket O tricks. Strategies and tactics and so on. Let's back up for people who don't have much context on your background.

20:41 Could you briefly explain what Essentialism is and also effortless the titles of two of your books respectively. And you know, I've thought about it. As in part

20:57 One is what to do, the other is how to do it, but that's not gonna give people enough of a Table setting. So would you mind just taking a moment to explain What the sort of main Kernels are the core concept. For these two.

21:13 Essentialism. In one word would be focus. Effortless in one word would be simplification. Another way of contrasting them is Centralism is

21:23 Figuring out what the right thing is to do. And effortless is to do it in the right way. And One of the reasons that I Right.

21:33 Both books. was because I'd covered some of effortless within essentialism. But as I've travelled around and taught this now, you know, all over, maybe four hundred plus organizations around the world over the last decade.

21:47 Almost nobody got the second message. Even though it is in there. Some of it's in there. Yeah, I know the feeling. Yeah, well I can take responsibility for this, but It's like

21:57 People heard the first mindset shift and not the second. And I think they're both Just as important, just as powerful. So what they heard in essentialism is So essentialism has three elements to it explore, eliminate, execute.

22:14 Explore what's essential. As opposed to nonessential as opposed to the trivial many. It's like what are the vital few things that make all the difference? Exploring that and identifying that. Then eliminate is to Actually

22:30 Delete. The non essentials. to remove them. It's not enough just to know what matters, what's essential. in your life, in your Year and your day.

22:39 You actually have to Get rid of the stuff. That's Getting In the way of those essentials.

22:45 And then execute is literally to make it as effortless as possible to do what matters most. So in there there's these two shifts. Find what's essential and eliminate. Nonessential.

22:58 And then once you've Arrived at that state. Or in an ongoing process really. You're then saying, Okay, well, how do I set up systems How do I organise myself in such a way that the

23:09 Essential things happen. Having your best day or your worst day. Yeah, right. Well, first of all, and I'll recommend both books to everybody. Essentialism is one of my most highlighted Kindle books that I have.

23:24 Effortless is similar. And it's the discipline pursuit of less. I would also in my mind it's What to do? That is effectiveness would be essentialism. And then how to do it. Which would be efficiency. is effortless. And I think for myself, if I'm

23:40 Looking back on the past year, I think I've been very good at identifying The essential. And Old habits die hard. I have been over exerting. I have been efforting my way. through some of those

23:57 Essential things by subconsciously overcomplicating them or introducing unnecessary complication and obstacles because There is that mantra that was ingrained in me some at some point, which is if it's important. And it's not hard, you are not trying hard enough.

24:15 But In a world of noise. If you aim to be surgical, there's nothing wrong with that applied focus. So let's hop into New Year, New You.

24:26 Type of discussion. A lot of folks listening will peg things to like a thirty day challenge, a sixty day reboot, whatever it might be, but you have a different lens through which you look at Pegging dates. and thinking about these types of landmarks. Could you elaborate on that, please?

24:44 The term for this in the literature is temporal landmarks. So what Almost everybody is familiar with this idea of the new year, new you. We all experience that. Oh, it's a new chance. What the research on this

24:57 is distinguishing is it's like Any moment. That allows you to Distinguish Old self to new self.

25:06 And that this is a really helpful cognitive malleability that you have because oh we have an excuse to become a new version of me to upgrade myself. So the new year new you is obviously in a chance for people to do that. It gets a bad name in some sense because people say, I mean, everyone says it, you know, Oh well, who here has set New Year's resolutions and then by the seventh of January you're not doing them anymore. And I actually think People are really wrong.

25:32 To f say that in a sense, to frame it like that. What we just need is more temporal landmarks. So that we say Yeah, we did the right things. And if it was seven days, well, that was great, because that was seven days you wouldn't have done otherwise. How else can you Select.

25:48 meaningful sort of tagging Fresh start. Moments. Of course, your birthday is a chance to do that, but so could the anniversary, and so could your parents' birthday, or so could your child's birthdays.

26:01 You can have the first day of the quarter. So that that's an additional four. And so identifying meaningful Dates and this is more than just a nice idea. I think people would themselves know

26:13 If they've experienced this in their lives, yeah, this is real. You want to increase the number of these you have. in twenty twenty five. So that you have lots of what's called the fresh start effect. You want lots of fresh start effects.

26:28 supporting you in getting to the new you. Uh so I think yes, celebrate if it's seven days, great. If it's two weeks, you know, into January, you're doing that new thing, fantastic. Build in the next one. What's the next meaningful date?

26:42 Of the year. And that's your next chance to be able to have an excuse to improve upon something. I think all of us are prisoners to The way our mind currently works. And we're prisoners until we

26:55 So I think these Temporal landmarks are a chance to sort of separate ourselves a bit. And the moment we get into that observer role. My experience at least is that

27:08 Well. It might feel a little esoteric to say this, but It's like Who's observing that? That's the real you.

27:16 And that observer is not so full of Pain not so full of confusion. The observer's actually really clear. And so any time you can use different tools to shift into that. Any time we can

27:28 Break down projects and anchor them to meaningful dates. Not arbitrary deadlines, but meaningful dates I think is a good accelerating Encouraging. Way of Going through the year.

27:39 Yeah. Something that that I've done in addition to pegging things to dates. I've done this somewhat, I suppose. Intuitively. the temporal landmarks is creating landmarks that are effectively tests for The

27:55 X that I'm trying to improve. So I will have and I already have two or three of these blocked out in twenty twenty five, which are let's just say Three to ten day. Mm. events which could be a meditation retreat. It could be something very physical at altitude that's gonna require types of fitness that I am loath to cultivate because I find them boring. But if I go on this trip with close friends.

28:19 And I am not up to snuff. Not only will I suffer, I will be ridiculed and have my balls busted endlessly by my friends who should exactly do that. And by having these I don't want to say final exams, but these Mm. Tests. Yeah. That are intended to be enjoyable, but they're only going to be enjoyable if I do the work ahead of time.

28:44 Mm mm. it builds in a lot of incentive and insurance that I will behave myself on some level and do what I know I should do. Let's hop into Doesn't have to be rapid fire, but I wanna give people a number of different concepts and tools that they can hopefully

29:01 contemplate using and I'll let you choose in which order you want to tackle these. Personal quarterly offsite, which is something that I've long been fascinated from your toolkit. been fascinated by that for a while. So the personal quarterly off site, the power half hour. Half an hour. And then the one two three method.

29:21 Where would you like to go first? That order I think is good actually. The personal quarterly off site. If I put it just conceptually for a second It's speed over direction. Because we live in a time

29:32 Where it's so easy to have What I would describe as counterfeit agility. So you're moving fast, life feels fast, life is fast, and you're taking messages, you're sending messages, you're doing things. But actually they don't add up. to a lot of progress towards what matters. Right. It's a millimeter in a thousand directions.

29:51 Yeah, precisely. So the speed over direction is what you don't want. Yeah, that's right. That's right. The Mansophot to go with it, right? You could say, Well A plane is off track ninety percent of the time. it only gets to where it's supposed to get to at the right time because it's adjusting constantly. So it's what is the forcing function? In our lives to make sure we don't go too far off track.

30:13 And then find, oh my goodness, Edo, it's been five years that I've gone down this path when really I shouldn't have even been on this journey. Right. I thought I was going to Arizona. I'm in North Korea. What happened? Yeah. Yeah, right, right, right. That would be a moment, wouldn't it? And so Personal coursely offsite. I mean you can take it. All the way literally.

30:31 I mean, Anna and I have done this Where we'll travel to somewhere and to take a weekend or take a few days possibly. And really talk. Big picture.

30:41 I mean there's three main questions that I think need to be addressed in a personal quarterly off site. Even though it It's more than these three, but this is the core of it is

30:52 One what? Uh the Essential. Things that we're under investing in. The second question is what are the non essential things we're over investing in?

31:02 And then perhaps not surprisingly How can we make it as effortless as possible? to be able to make that shift. within this next ninety days. Now there's more sub questions to it than that, but

31:14 I think that's the Tension. That is so important to identify clearly. And so It doesn't have to be as major as this, though. I mean that's

31:25 I think you could still make meaningful progress in An hour or two. On your own or with someone else. I like doing it with an accountability partner, but even there I think the best practice is you

31:36 Fill out this Process you. answer these questions yourself, they do it, and then you bring them together. And start talking and get into Not negotiation exactly, but exploration and working through things.

31:49 And I think that's one of the primary benefits of a personal quarterly offsite. is really facing the reality that All of us are lost. All of us are going in the wrong direction. Until we pause.

32:00 Think about it. Get clear again. I do not feel like I'm a better essentialist. are better at applying these ideas in in one sense than anybody else, certainly not inherently. But I think I admit to it faster.

32:12 than maybe the average person. And I think that's the key. Could you give An example of Ideally a real example, but it doesn't have to be. But Particularly number three. So there's the what's the essential that you're under investing in. I'm sure I could sit down and identify that.

32:28 What's non-essential that you're over investing in? I think I could also come up with that list. How can you make it as effortless Or make it effortless to make the trade off. That is where the rubber hits the road. So I'd love to hear an example perhaps of how you've navigated that or seen others navigate it.

32:48 We could do it with me or with you right now. I'm game. To try it. We'll see how if my brain cooperates, but I'm happy to give it a shot. Okay, so let's just ask these questions. With you right now. Let's do like a little

33:00 Essentialist intervention. Maybe I shouldn't call it that, but let's try it. For sure. Well let's do it for the whole year. What's up? are candidates for things that Are essential

33:11 that you feel like you've been under investing in. I think what I've been under investing in in the last month, which is something that I need to invest in in almost the most literal sense because it's something that will have a payoff. in the long term as it compounds is Physical therapy.

33:30 And training for The legs and Glutes and lower back because I've had this chronic pain for let's just call it two years. It's probably longer with these brief windows of respite. And

33:48 There was a period of time where I was doing this training very consistently. And having intermittent Progress and then About

33:58 Let's just call it a month ago, I had a injection in a very particular place. Which helped the back pain tremendously. And I could give a litany of excuses, family.

34:12 sort of medical situation and various things. I have been neglecting that. In part because I'm having this window of relief from the lower back pain. So it's not an immediate pressing. Issue, but I know it will be.

34:27 So let's just say that and it's something essential that I'm under investing in, even though I am going to be doing this particular training as soon as we finish this recording. So it hasn't completely left the arena. But it's something that I've got. been inconsistent with that I know is fundamental to my well being. That'd be one.

34:47 Well, first of all, it's a great example because When I ask people what's essential that you're under investing in, there are some really predictable answers, and one of them is certainly will be health related, fitness related. It's something they already know about. The conscience is already Tapping them about. But

35:03 What I have learned. Is this strange Law of inverse. Prioritization. Which is

35:11 I literally believe now that The most important Ping. in our lives at any given time is the least likely thing to get done. It's sort of squares with what I see and what I've experienced at Points. Why do you think that is?

35:26 I think one of the reasons Is because it's so important. The risk. Of Failing at it is much higher than anything else in your life.

35:37 So it adds to this Performance anxiety. Yes. Yeah. very high performance anxiety around that important thing because

35:48 doing something about it shows that you can fail or might show that Yeah, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. And now we'll be back to the beginning on this thing that's so high stakes and then The more important the thing is, the more vulnerable it is. So then You know, you want to avoid No.

36:03 We all know we should. That courage is a virtue, but Courage always feels terrible. I mean like it is an awful feeling. It's not like you imagine when you see other people being courageous.

36:15 Well, courage doesn't exist without the prerequisite of fear. It's you feel fear and you do the thing anyway. Like without the fear, courage as a word and concept doesn't apply. Yeah. You know, there's lots of layers of reasons. Add on to that one is

36:29 Sort of Pretend perfectionism. that drives procrastination. Well, unless I'm gonna do this perfectly you know, unless I'm really ready to do this, unless I'm in the perfect situation Unless I'm gonna do it for the full amount of time.

36:42 So all of these additional rules Yeah. I think I've set up basically set myself up to fail with the number of Checkboxes like the perfect length. in as we're talking about this just in terms of I'm skipping to the end. We haven't hit number two, which I'm sure I've I've got plenty, but in terms of making it effortless, it's just like and I I've done this in other areas too. It's just scale it down.

37:03 I don't eliminate the session. If it's ten minutes, it's ten minutes instead of an hour. But don't put a lot of zeros. On the calendar in terms of mist. training sessions. It's like if it's gotta be five minutes, it's gotta be five minutes. But like sixty can be the ideal, but

37:20 What's not allowed is zero. It's having a maximum and and m minimum. Like it's a A lower. Bar but also the higher bar, like a limit on both. And when I hear you say, Oh, well, an owl would be perfect, or I think that's what you said.

37:34 I felt overwhelmed for you. Literally I'm like, What an hour. That is You know, like oh, I can't add an hour of physical therapy, even though I'm sure there are things I should be doing too. And so I like the term microburst for this.

37:48 That's an environmental reality, right? Like these storms that are just these ten minute storms, a micro burst. But Actually setting a timer for ten minutes. And the key is that you end at the end of the ten minutes. That's

38:01 What you're using the discipline for. And you say, Okay, I'm gonna do that ten days in a row. Ten minutes and when it hits ten minutes, I'm done. So that the next day you know. This is small.

38:13 Like I really will end when it says so. And therefore I'll carry it on. There's just almost no end to the application of that. I was just reflecting on this as I was finishing this journal. I need to get The next one.

38:25 You know, this is like in January That will be Fourteen years that I've kept a journal and I don't think I've missed a day. I might have done, you know, if I went through it all. But I don't think I have.

38:37 But the reason is because My upper bound when I first started was five sentences and my lower bound was one sentence and What normally happens with journals is the exact opposite. First day people write three pages. And by day two then it's done by day two because on day two they're like, I don't have an hour for this. And so then they go, Oh, I'll do it tomorrow. And then day three, now they've got to do two hours in their mind, and so it's over before they've begun.

39:01 So I think that's one key thing for you is the ten minutes. I'd done it ten minutes until I have done ten days in a row. I'm doing ten minutes. It's way, way better to do that little than than to not do any because you want to do it perfectly.

39:15 Yeah. That's good advice. I mean I think There's so many things that you could do to make this More enjoyable.

39:21 What is a certain Пок Could be a podcast, but it could be a book or some other thing, audio thing that you're only gonna get to listen to, or a movie or sh you know. Fun show. This is the only time I get to

39:33 Watch that. is the ten minutes that I'm gonna do this. And so you link it together. I I've gone through so many classics this year. Because while I'm running, while I'm doing exercise, while I'm traveling, I'm listening to some of the greatest literature ever written. I just almost feel like I'm It is like cheat code. I'm cheating the system.

39:51 I am just having wisdom and knowledge and entertainment poured into me. while I'm doing something else. I really am getting two for the price of one. And so that's another way to do it. Of course you could have a forcing function where If you don't do it.

40:04 We've heard these things before, but if you don't do it then you have to pay a certain amount to a charity or to a political party, not of your Choosing or You can create these forcing function bets. Had somebody who is Who had

40:16 a really important trade off they were trying to make. And their penalty For not making the trade off would be Their favorite wine was three hundred dollars a bottle is some I I don't know wine, but And they he would have to pour down one glass of it.

40:30 If he didn't complete it on this day, and that was his forcing function, and that was so painful for him. Yeah. But it really gave him an excuse. I mean it's a fun excuse, but An excuse to Be on track and to be consistent. So

40:43 But there's all sorts of things that We can do even you publicly talking about it here. Okay, well now. Everybody knows. I mean, all of these things are to try to stack the deck in your favor. And to try to remove those things that make it harder than it needs to be.

40:58 Yeah. I mean I'm I'm already thinking about a few things. I mean it's very basic, but for instance, you know, I'm staying Due to the circumstances with the family stuff. Um Not at home. I'm staying in hotels and I need to travel to a location and sign in and sign waivers and so on just to do any of this. Yeah, so it's like all right, look.

41:18 I've fortunately got the budget. I should just go out later today, get a reasonably thick yoga mat and just stick it in my hotel room. I don't actually need anything else and currently because it's a concrete floor, I can't do what I would intend to do because it'll be brutally unpleasant on the joints. And

41:37 Okay. Like that's a solvable problem. Right. I'm obviously I'm trying to sort of stack effortless ideas, one does not have to do any of these things. The question is the key. How do you make it effortless? I mean

41:49 Okay, in a hotel. Somebody in that hotel can go do that for you. Like you could find somebody to pay to do it. And that all sounds like oh yeah. champagne type of solution, but it's like Well, that also makes it effortless. It's all about trying to ask that question and giving your brain enough time

42:07 to do a Google search. Looking for Easy solutions. And I I think there's such a in the insecure overachieva there's such a pushback about this. In the mind, well what's the easy solution? No, no, no, that can't be it.

42:20 That we don't even allow the search to take place. Yeah, well also as the insecure achiever, which is A label'em I've grown quite fond of while we've been talking. That probably characterizes me pretty well.

42:34 You and me both. We're both in this. Yeah, these achiever types Often have A Modicum of success. in any number of ways because they are good at solving problems. So the inclination is to ask

42:48 How can I do X? But that's not how the sentence needs to start. Right, the sentence. Could be. Who could

42:57 Do this besides me. Or Who knows? Maybe Instacart could go get me a Yoga mat, right? It doesn't necessarily have to be You know, Claude the Butler. I'm not suggesting that it's like, Well, I'll just take my Seven story hovercraft down to

43:13 Scrooge McDuck's office and we'll take some gold coins out of his swimming pool. But reframing and rephrasing the questions that you habitually ask yourself. This is something I do try to pay attention to. But my go-to is typically like, all right, look, it's gonna take me Too long to get somebody up to speed on all this bullshit. I'm just gonna do it myself. How can I do this as easily as possible? But that still presents a hurdle. And especially in this current day of automation.

43:41 Getting someone else or someone else vis-a-vis an app or a retailer vis-a-vis an app to do something like this. is available to almost anyone who is listening to this podcast. Practically speaking. Well, look, Warren Buffett described it this way. He said to be alive today in the developed world

43:58 You have more opportunity More means. More chances for learning and for travel and so on than Rockefeller did. And that was such a good reframe for me.

44:09 Because You talk about instacot. There are so many ways to make things happen now. And Almost all of us do have access to those things, and I'm not trying to minimize this. It's

44:20 The way of thinking. That's outdated. That's where the clutter is. The execution ability in our societies are really pretty unbelievable right now. Now there's one more Tactic worth considering here.

44:34 One of the principles in effortless is the courage to be rubbish. And doing it a shorter period of time, and that's one of the things you could say, Well, that's the rubbish version, but you know, you're saying the yoga mat and and I think, Well, yeah, I can see why that works, but You could also use something else. It doesn't have to be a yoga mat. On the first time today.

44:54 If we wanted to scale that down to dirty prototype, it's like, okay, well let me just grab Some of the like towels or something else. And it's gonna kinda be A pain in the ass, but It's better than nothing, right? It's better than doing a zero. I

45:11 Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. As many of you know, for the last few years, I've been sleeping on a midnight luxe mattress from today's sponsor, Helix Sleep. I also have one in the guest bedroom downstairs, and feedback from friends has always been fantastic. It's something they comment on without any prompting from me whatsoever. I also recently had a chance to test the Helix Sunset Elite. The Sunset Elite delivers exceptional comfort while putting the right support in the right spots. It is made with five tailored foam layers, including a base layer with full perimeter zoned lumbar support, right where I need it, and middle lay with premium foam and microcoils that create a soft contouring feel. Helix offers a 100 night sleep trial. Fast free shipping and a fifteen year warranty. So check it all out. And now you can get twenty percent off anything on their website. So site wide. So just go to helix sleep.com slash Tim. One more time. Helix sleep dot com slash

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47:22 Now back to the episode. I So I'd love to hear Your thoughts on doing a pre mortem. 'Cause I have found that

47:34 This seems to be something you've given quite a bit of thought to, and uh the reason I bring it up Is I think a lot of people fumble sort of right before the touchdown, so to speak. And that's because they don't think about what could go wrong. And there are lots of questions maybe they have answered.

47:52 Right, and I just came from a company off site. We were chatting. earlier today before recording, where we talked about where have we been, where are we now, where do we want to be. We covered a lot of that ground. But one of the questions that we didn't really think about As much. We did maybe in some nominal way.

48:09 Ask like are there any blockers? But We didn't explicitly ask, you know, what are the most likely things to stop us from getting there, meaning where we want to go. And That's something I really want to

48:24 Hone as A skill. Which I've done intermittently, but maybe you could just lay out what that looks like. If people aren't grasping the example that I'm giving, but What is this?

48:36 Pre-mortem. I think if you want to make Optimal progress on What's essential? Then

48:44 Using a strategic narrative is a Really helpful way to Go about this. I just did a session like this with the leadership of the Navy SEALs.

48:53 This wasn't the only thing that we did, but this was part of it. was to not to write out, but to draw. Where have you been? Where are you now? Where do you want to be? And then this fourth question that you're

49:04 Focusing on What? Is going to keep us from Doing it. What's stopping us?

49:11 What's in the way? And so you have all of these Commanders. And above. Trawing.

49:18 And then we're looking at all the drawing. The drawing's not just that's not just be Fun or gimmick. It's another forcing function to get to clarity. It's easy to hide behind numbers and too many words and too many bullet points. Like if you have to create an image it forces a certain parts of your brain to light up.

49:35 And so they did that. But then what it enables us to do to look at in this case an image of what's going to Keep you From achieving

49:44 Your outcome. Is that First of all, it becomes tangible so that you can actually prosecute it. Well that might not really be the issue. That it's a thought that you have, but that thought is actually outdated thought. That's not really what it is. It's based on an assumption. So you need to prosecute it before you try to solve.

50:02 Uh. obstacle. You need to say, Well is it really an obstacle? Is that just the way we've been doing it in the past? How have we overcomplicated it? Every Organization.

50:11 Every single organization follows a predictable pattern. with overcomplicating. Every society does the same thing. It's a Brilliant book written about this by Joseph Tainchick called The Collapse of complex societies.

50:25 In which he says look All societies become fragile. Because they solve problems. That add too much complexity And then there's no mechanism.

50:36 For reducing that complexity. Other than failure. The most fragile state for society in in his analysis. Is that It requires all of the resources you have available to maintain the current level of complexity.

50:52 And so then it doesn't matter what the next massive problem is. He studied all these you know. Dozens of different societies that have collapsed. And one's for famine and one's because of war and one's because of civil unrest. I mean every cause looks different, but he's like they're the same thing.

51:09 It's just another massive problem. And you don't have any resources to handle it. So the first thing to do once you've asked the question, what's getting in the way, is to just pause on it. Why do I think that's getting the way? Is that really the problem? And it's back to this falling in love with the problem, not the solution. And high performance people

51:28 And high performance executives and in this case the High performing commanders. And major commanders I mean they Built to execute.

51:37 They're the elite. Of the elite. At being able to To make something happen. But the problem is

51:46 How do you challenge that strength? So that you First go. Have we identified the right problem? Is this really the issue? Why do we think this is the thing?

51:56 Why do we think this is getting in the way? That's really non-trivial part of the thought process. If you really think you've pinpointed and unlock the real issue. Which, as I say, most people with the curse of competence

52:09 make the mistake of not prosecuting it. then of course now you're saying, Okay, well we really do think this is the obstacle, we do think this is the problem Then it's really creating a lot of buffer for that, to expect the unexpected, to know that. Things will come up. I mean your example that we've started this conversation with, right? Like

52:28 Let's say I assume two months ago you didn't know this was going to happen. And here it is, and it's having all this effect. And it's like we don't know what Will happen in 2025, but I'll bet anybody, almost any amount of money, that they will have such things come up in 2025 that they're not yet prepared for. If you think about the future as only perfect best case scenario.

52:49 You are setting yourself up for really frustrating, stressful, poor execution. The best performers you think here like I think of the Phelps. Think about Phelps.

53:01 Process. So When they're creating The coach, Bob Bowman and Phelps. effectively their strategic narrative, right?

53:11 Effectively they don't literally do it, but drawing out where they've been, where they want to go, what could get in the way. The list is a long list, longer than I realized, because of course these performed so many times at elite level well what really can get in the way at the Olympics other than the other competitors. Oh no, they got a h a long and

53:31 Complex identification of possible problems. One of the things that they said, which is was interesting to me when I talked to Bob about this He said, Well The conditions

53:42 In China, or in any Olimpics. Is that They will be Worse than the conditions. He's used to training in.

53:50 That never occurred to me before because I just sort of always look so Extraordinary, you know, you just assume that The athletes are having great experiences, you know, off camera. And he's like, that's never how it is. It's always much more chaotic. There's always many more problems. Things the conditions aren't

54:06 Ideal. So his goal was how can I make Phelps experience as normal as possible in really abnormal circumstances. So Some of the things that they do.

54:21 Okay. They have a set routine so that he's there two hours before every race. That's a lot of buffer. Especially for me who can be quite time blind, you know, like it's easy to just show up at right at the time or a couple of minutes late. Two hours ahead of time. Why? Because the one no matter what happens, you have buffer now.

54:38 They're in the pool following a a normal routine so that He can feel normal even though everything's abnormal. So they're doing the same thing till forty five minutes when he sits on The massage table never lies down. Because it's routine.

54:53 Yep. Rutinize everything you can rutinize. When he comes to The coal time. He sits down, puts a towel next to him on one side, his goggles on the other, so that no one can sit next to him. You just don't need another detraction. It's another thing you can control in the routine.

55:07 He's listening to the same music. When he gets up to the board to jump off. He's getting on always from the left hand side, always dries it before he gets up there. All of this is as a result of having identified previously problems that could come up.

55:22 And if you do it in this sequence Then you've mitigated all those execution problems. When he stands To jump into the pool. He flaps his

55:29 arms in a very particular Phelps way, every time. That's just the physical. Preparation in advance. He also had mental preparation. processes that included, for example

55:43 For ten years before the Beijing Olympics. He is Every night and every morning. Told to put in the video tape. You can see how long it's been going on for.

55:53 And it means So imagine the perfect race from end to end in slow motion. But it also includes exercises like What will you do if your goggles fill with water? So imagine

56:07 Stroke by stroke. Perfect race, even though your goggles are filled with water. And so on, like lots of different mental preparation cycles. And in fact, that is what happened in one of the races, is the goggles did fill with water.

56:20 If you if you have never anticipated that, never thought through it. psychologically, mentally That's it. That's over. If we get a race, forget the Olympics, I would hate to try and do that for even a couple of lengths would be not At all enjoyable.

56:35 And he still is able to win. Because he's literally prepared for these scenarios. When it came down to those Olympics, Bob Bowman said to me, he said. I Knew it was feasible to happen, but I couldn't believe that it happened.

56:49 As effortlessly as it did. It's just everything clicked every time, one after another. He says at the end he stood like in the movie The Miracle He stood in the hallway and just on his own Just had this moment of sort of

57:02 exquisite meltdown of like I here I have I've been speaking with confidence, but the thing actually executed so beautifully, so well. No one had ever done it before. You know, like somebody described him. If he wins seven gold medals, he'll be like the first man on the moon. If he wins eight, he'll be like the first man on Mars. And he does the eight.

57:22 When I went to the Cube in China, I was reflecting on this. How did he make the execution look so effortless? It's like that's why, you know, that's why I went and ended up interviewing Bob about this because I was like, uh, you gotta explain it. What went on, what's behind the scenes. It's not just the moment that y looks like the moment of execution. It's what are all the problems What are all the mitigating things we can do? We'll build that into the routine.

57:46 He added this final thought which I think is interesting. He said If you ask Phelps about this He might not even tell you there is a routine. It's so normal now. And it was built so deliberately.

57:58 That's just life. And yet all of it was built in place. As anticipation for challenges and problems. So that then the whole thing feels Effortless fluid.

58:09 But really. It's because of all of this anticipation planning. Yeah, and it's also it strikes me not what is holding this back. It could be present tense, but you know, what could Prevent this. I know one very, very

58:24 successful one of the most, maybe the most successful Consumer package goods investors. He's also a serial founder. So he invests in if you go to Whole Foods, everything there is CPG. Alright, he Well ask co founders, he said three years from now. You guys have had a huge dispute and one of you wants to leave.

58:46 What are the most likely reasons? That's his question. Like what are the most likely reasons? And I mean, there's a lot that can uncork, obviously. If there's a if there are already tensions or finger pointing at play, then he'll get to see it. But it often will unearth other things that might be problematic. Right. Maybe there's an equity split that one person feels is unfair. Maybe there's a power dynamic where they're both trying to split CEO duties fifty fifty, which I've never seen work. And so on and so forth. Right. But

59:18 Having those come up early allows him as an investor to say, Okay, great. And I'm role playing here, but he might say, I want to invest. Here are the terms I'm willing to. Agree to, but A condition of that will be that we fix A, B, and C that you guys brought up.

59:34 And That's it. Right. So that's a way of sussing out a pre mortem. And in my case to Focus on my like lower back rehab. It's very simple. It's like okay, well If I'm traveling.

59:46 What happens? Because Sure. If I'm at home and I have all of my toys and tools and my routine is already established, so there isn't a lot of hemming and hawing or figuring out how to order food from room service or whatever. That's great, but you need to develop systems and plans and contingencies so that you do what you're supposed to do on your worst days. The best days will hopefully kind of take care of themselves. But

1:00:13 the world doesn't always serve you up perfect days. So in the case of the low back stuff, it's like okay. Well I should have Yoga Matt. I'm just using the example. Pre-ship to every hotel room. Maybe we choose hotels based on which ones have gyms or

1:00:30 Yoga mat's already in the rooms, which is true for some places. Dot dot dot dot dot dot but basically put that into a template, right? Maybe that's a Google Doc for me or for someone else where it's like, okay. have to book a hotel for location X, like what are the rules? What's the template? And then

1:00:50 That's it. It's just done. Hopefully it's a set it and forget it type of operation where it's like, okay, identify a possible problem. identify solution to possible problem. build that in to Every Time X is done.

1:01:05 Right, whatever that X might be. The word that you use that Isn't a new word. Brings to mind.

1:01:13 An extreme and amazing case. Of This Is the word systems. And I don't know if you know Rob Dear Deck.

1:01:22 I don't think so. He's an MTV star. Have you seen the show Ridiculousness? I don't think they have. You have it.

1:01:29 Maybe, yeah. I'll have to look at it. you know, crazy crashes and terrible things and hilarious right. That's one of the shows that he's most famous for now and a big MTV show. Before that he was famous first his first big show was Robin Big. And then before that

1:01:46 He was Famous as a Skateboarder. Lots of people listening to this know already who Rob Dierdeck is. But in persona.

1:01:54 He's this skateboarder. I mean he's funny and he's A certain kind of version of him, but As I've got to know Rob He Абсолютні блоз майн.

1:02:06 In Ві інтенціоналіті Of the system. He's building. I think he's the second best paid

1:02:13 Skateboarder in America. Among many other things. I wanna try and Capture this because He sent to me a document. It's called The Rhythm of Experience.

1:02:23 I've had a lot of people send me kind of life plan tools and documents and versions of things, right? Like his vision statements, and mission statements and goals and roles and all sorts of things you might expect to have in there. This is a fifty page document that Is like seeing the future.

1:02:40 Every single thing he learns About himself, about a system. About A problem. They just build it into the same single document. Everything. So when he got married.

1:02:52 He has therapy. I think he does it Either every week or every two weeks. From the time they got married. He's like, it's like a Ferrari. We're just updating Ferrari. It's not because there's a problem, it's just anticipation. Of course there'll be problems. So we just build it into the routine. So anything that comes up in those conversations

1:03:07 He doesn't just go, Oh yeah, that's good. I'll really try and gonna work on that, going to improve on that. He goes, Okay, right. I'm not communicating well about what my schedule is. Okay, so it builds it into the routine. Every single morning. An email of my routine will be sent every day, forever, going forward to my wife. So she never has to have that specific problem again.

1:03:25 Everything he learns he builds into the system. So that He Isn't learning the same lesson. You know, like

1:03:34 Living twenty years, but actually you're just living the same year. twenty times. He's actually gaining twenty years of experience. So let me ask you a question about his document, the rhythm of experience, because it sounds like there are two things, at least, just to confirm that I'm understanding this. He has a document.

1:03:53 That contains learnings and various things. He also has Very rapid action after let's just say wife gives feedback. I don't know what your schedule is. I want you to communicate. I'd love for you to communicate better about that. He's like, Great.

1:04:07 From this point forward, daily email. Two wife. regarding schedule. But it sounds like that goes into action. How that's implemented, I don't know, but What does the document do, right? Because if the document

1:04:22 is fifty pages long, however long it is. Presumably there would have to be some scheduled time for reviewing that or using it. My takeaway is that he Basically creates a rule and systematizes things so that he doesn't have A hundred one off.

1:04:40 band aid solutions, right? There's like some sort of recurring semi-permanent or permanent policy that he puts in place to address various things. How is the document actually used? Everyone on his team has access to the same document. So it's not just for him to remember. And so this is the brain.

1:04:58 This is what you're going to first. Like you're not coming to him, hey, how should we handle this and that? Unless it's not in that document. It really is I mean we all sort of know the idea of the difference between working in your business and on your business. But he's just applying that to his life.

1:05:15 In a more sophisticated, developed way than anyone I have seen. I'm curious because I have Not surprisingly, spend a lot of time thinking about systems. I come up with rules and policies and this, this, and this. That I have found to be the easy part. I create a document or someone else creates a document. There's a Google Doc. It's shared with everyone on the team. But by the way, in the process of doing business week to week, month to month, year to year, there are hundreds of Google documents.

1:05:44 And Aside from for specific documents saying if they're short enough. Let's just say there's a short, which there is. I have a sort of Twelve commandments of Tim's calendar type of document. So it's like okay, like every Wednesday morning review this or something. Okay, you can have somebody put in a recurring calendar item to do that.

1:06:04 But otherwise, I'm most interested in how the team uses the document because there's a search and discovery challenge sort of inherent. With Google Docs and so on. Now if it's a single doc, that's interesting.

1:06:21 But that presents its own challenges. If it becomes kind of unwieldy. It's like, hey, my wife didn't get the reminder on the calendar. They're like, What reminder on the calendar? Well, whatever. And they're like, Oh, it's on page forty seven, buried under miscellaneous. Why didn't you find it? And it's like, because no human would ever think to find that quickly there. So Mm-hmm. I don't know if there's any light you can shed on that.

1:06:45 While we're sort of thinking about that, I'm just remembering of other precision things that he has on there, right? So he gets his hair cut once a week. At exactly the same time. Because he likes his hair just to be never have think about that. Never have to schedule it. And every time I schedule an appointment to get my hair cut, every time I think You're doing this wrong, Greg. Because

1:07:06 There's a way to systematize that. And I know someone who's done it. And I haven't done it yet. I mean what we're talking about is the difference between Linear results and residual results.

1:07:18 Right. So if a linear result is one way you say, Well It only happens today if you Take action. Do it today.

1:07:27 Right. So linear income, right, you get paid. Per hour. Per day. And so you get paid when you work today, right? And residual income would be okay it income that rolls to you. through all sorts of investments that can do that.

1:07:40 when you're sleeping. So it just is happening automatically. It's such a game changer. To shift one's mindset between the two. Let's talk about if you're open to it. And Feel free to

1:07:52 Defer this and continue on a different thread if you like. But Defining done. This is also Something that

1:08:00 Has captured my attention. I'll let you Open that in any way that makes sense, but Why is it important to define what done looks like? Because insecure overachievers can endlessly

1:08:13 Complicate. Any task. to a Infinite degree. So

1:08:20 Just asking the question, what does Dunn look like? And then sticking to it, knowing. When this thing has happened when we've reached that point. That is what done will be on this project.

1:08:32 This goal. Uh Of course, is an accelerating thing to do. And then maybe just saying it a different way, it's almost like a natural law. Like If you don't

1:08:41 Know what done looks like. You cannot be done. Even defining a done for the day list, I think, is really helpful. So It's part of a tool that I I actually never thought I would do it.

1:08:54 I was under contract to create an essentialism planet ten years ago. And after I worked on it for a few months With a team. I just concluded yeah, I think I would just be creating something just totally nonessential, which you know would be too ironic. And I I just uh just not helpful enough to anyone. This is just like every other planner like this and

1:09:12 Or journal and I uncommitted, got out of the contract, and then couple of years ago after I'd carried on Try on And era

1:09:22 In my own life. Applying these ideas. I finally was like no actually I think I have something now that special and it works and it's so helpful to me.

1:09:32 I think I'm ready to actually get into contract and do it. So we did that. Went through again more iterations, removed loads of stuff you would normally have in a planet, so that it really is sort of just the part of it has a personal coursely off site in it. as a weekly process you go through and then a daily process and The output of the daily process is done for the day list.

1:09:52 It doesn't mean When you've done these six items and it's the particular it's called the one two three method. So there's Six items total. When you've done those six things You can feel you're done for the day.

1:10:04 Maybe you don't do anything else, but you know you have done important things, urgent things, key things for tomorrow. There's a method to get to that, but A done for the day list is I think helpful psychologically. For removing unnecessary cognitive Strain.

1:10:21 on our minds when we're just perpetually doing. There's no doing and then not doing times, there's just endlessly looping, endlessly doing semi tasks or semi distractions.

1:10:33 In a digital world. The one two three method, you mentioned that. That is The one most essential thing, two essential and urgent things, and three maintenance items that you can use them for the day. Yep.

1:10:46 Okay. And Could you give an example of what that might look like? In your own life. What's that one two three.

1:10:54 Has looked like or might look like it's not. I'm gonna back up just for just a second just to say okay. This is part of the daily process. There's solid science behind structure

1:11:05 And this protocol. And nobody needs to know that, you know, what all that research is, but it it's helpful just to know that that's the case. It follows this structure that I call it the power half an hour. Because I basically think look for most people

1:11:20 Maybe everyone including me, it's unrealistic to say, Oh, take control of your whole life. But if you could take control of half an hour of your life That will improve every other minute of the other twenty three and a half hours, okay, but that's a pretty high return on effort. And and there's a micro version. You can do it, the minimum I would suggest I think you can do this well, still have a valuable experience is like six minutes, and that's sort of a back up lower.

1:11:45 Bound. But you're answering three questions. I've mentioned them previously, but you do it on a daily basis. What, so what, now what. That's the structure. So that every day You take that noise. So instead of it building up

1:11:57 Days and weeks at a time, you like you just Spending that immediately just Getting the noise out. What's going on? Download. So what? What's the news in your life? Try to find the headline, the key. Why does this matter? What does this mean?

1:12:11 And then the third thing, the now what is the one two three method. What does it look like for me? Okay. You know, so the priority for the day. So I'm thinking about

1:12:21 Saturday Priority for the day on Saturday. My niece is getting married. Claire and John, a shout out to them. And so that's the priority.

1:12:29 And that's an obvious one, I suppose, on that day, because You know, certain things it's already structurally built in. I still find it helpful to identify it. Because it helps me go, okay. That's the mission.

1:12:41 That's the priority singular. If I only do one thing today, if I only need to give my attention to one thing today, this is what I need to give attention to. Then underneath that you have okay. Two things that are essential and urgent. These I sort of described this as like the taxes of our life. And that was kind of literally true on Saturday, right? We're coming to the very end of the year.

1:13:03 Any final financial things I need to have sorted out, retirement, taxes, anything. This would be the last day to check. Yeah, so I think those were the items that w that were on there. Maintenance items I describe as like the laundry of our life, which can be literally the laundry But

1:13:18 I have a car that has one of the tires is just losing Air on it. Obviously it's not normal, simple thing, but If I'm taking

1:13:26 It doesn't mean I have to execute it. The task is Schedule this. Or have this organized. So that you know it's done.

1:13:34 The three maintenance items per day are the things that Make tomorrow a lot harder. If you don't resolve them today. Your future self is always grateful that you took care of the maintenance items. And of course this is all just a rule of thumb.

1:13:50 This one two three. But I've just found it so helpful. And I don't do it every day. I still wish I did. But what I notice is that when I don't do it.

1:14:01 My day is more frenetic. More frantic. I don't have This clear sense of the day. It's not nearly as satisfying because even though

1:14:11 I can still be productive in a kind of more forced way. You don't know if you're doing the most important thing. You don't know Yes, I have selected these things. You don't have something to come back to going back to the plane. Analogy.

1:14:26 Of Okay, well all these things happened that d I didn't expect to happen. Yes, that's normal, that's life. But you don't have a chance to go, Okay, well coming back to the most important thing, let's work on this again. And so that's an example from just literally this weekend. Of how I would think about it.

1:14:43 And It just allows you on the days that I've done it Two Enjoy the experience. And also, and I suppose maybe this is the most important benefit.

1:14:54 is that you actually know and work on the most important thing. Which as previously stated. is actually the least likely thing to happen. That's of course a very satisfying way to live. But if so you go through twenty twenty-five. And you literally every day did if you and I, if everyone listening to this Does the most important thing every day.

1:15:15 If they did nothing else different in twenty twenty five, there's no question that would change both. Trajectory. And momentum. You know, the whole velocity of the year would be different. Because of our tendency not to do the most important thing.

1:15:30 And of course the other things add to that sense of an A more effortless approach. to doing the things that matter most. Yeah, so Add to that that

1:15:40 working on the most important thing. gives you a sense of mission and purpose that smaller things do not. So it's not purely the clinical moving of the needle on important things because really there's nothing outside of your psychological experience of reality. the the feeling of being moored and pointed in the right direction.

1:16:06 With the bigger thing. psychologically is really, really, really valuable. It's not just about Whatever the points might be. Sure the points are nice, but really Psychologically and psychoemotionally. knowing that you're working on

1:16:21 something that matters, however you've defined that, is I have just found, you know, this past year I think I've done a a very good job of that. And It's remarkable what that does for your mental health. Well just describe that a little more in detail. So you're describing the impact of meaning. You know, of practically knowing.

1:16:43 Each day, each week, and so on, I'm pursuing something that means something to me. Yeah. But what difference has it made for you psychologically? Sure. Well I would say that there's a bit more to it, just in terms of maybe characteristics when choosing that important thing.

1:16:59 So for instance. For me. There has to be a making or mastery component. One or the other. So either creating something or I am trying to master something, not just this is on the flip side.

1:17:14 Like manage or mitigate. So for instance. Even though doing the PT for the low back and so on is incredibly important. If I decide that is the most important thing per se. It's depressing.

1:17:28 There's no winning there. It's doing something not to lose. Right. There's a lot of fear associated with it. It is not an inspiring headspace to inhabit. No, it doesn't need to be doing you know back PT in the gulag by candlelight. I mean it it doesn't have to be miserable, but It doesn't have

1:17:50 the requisite payoff that I would want in a most important thing. Still needs to get done, which means that it's maybe the Two essential and urgent things or one of the maintenance things. Right. But it's a non negotiable maintenance. Right. This is not A nice to have. But for instance, been working on my first book in seven years, which is making Fantastic progress.

1:18:11 Shocker it's become Absurdly long. One day I'll write a short book. It's gonna be a hell of an accomplishment. By the way, someone was just raving to me last night. About tools of Titans. This is the

1:18:25 Oh, yeah. Sat down and then it was I was just gone for like two hours working through it. There's so much of it. So anyway, that was literally yesterday. They just out the blue said that. So carry on anyway. Yeah, thanks. That makes me feel good. That was a fun book to write, which isn't always the case. So that is one. At the top, which feels very good. Two

1:18:48 get back into as I feel like much of what is online. most of what is online increasingly is just becoming ephemera. Very short half life. It's just like you could put out the best thing imaginable in most formats that are available today, and it will have vanished from the minds of the people it passed in front of within twenty four hours. Books still hold an interesting place. They have a certain

1:19:13 Durability. Yep. Might not last forever, but there's a certain durability that I think is really important. There's a deep cachet about it. Deep. Not just Oh, that's impressive. This it holds a certain place in people's minds still and and and for good reason. I mean

1:19:27 Yeah, books have lasted longer than almost anything else. So yeah. Yeah. So for me, if I'm among other things trying to impact lives, I feel like that feels like time very well spent. Yep. Yep, I understand that. So all of that is on the making side. Right, then I also have been Spending a lot of time on archery specifically, which is every bit as frustrating as golf in a lot of respects. I don't play golf, but I've talked to a lot of golfers and that's the closest comparison.

1:19:56 When it's going well, man, is it beautiful. And when you can't figure out what you've changed to make things go sideways, it's a very Frustrating, but it's become this Constant. that I can work on in some cases incremental gains, in some cases big gains. I don't want to imply that I'm going to master archery, but

1:20:19 I am practicing as if that is my goal. Mm-hmm. And There's an article. Let me if just pull it up. I want to give

1:20:27 Credit where credit is due. that I'm reading right now on Mastery. And uh It is

1:20:35 On read trung com And the name of the piece, which I recommend to folks. It's actually a fantastic read. Is And Read Trunk.com is a reference to Trunk Fan.

1:20:52 Who's the writer Jerry Seinfeld, Ichiro Suzuki and the Prazo. of mastery. Notes from the nineteen eighty seven Esquire magazine issue that inspired Jerry Seinfeld to quote pursue mastery because that will fulfill your life, end quote. So we'll put that in the

1:21:08 show notes, but it basically makes the point that if you choose a discipline or something to approach through the lens of deliberate practice and mastery, which never ends, right? This may be something you do for an incredibly long period of time. And it also highlights different archetypes and why they fail to pursue mastery, which I found very helpful. That That art, that sport, that fill in the blank could be your most constant companion you have in life.

1:21:36 And there's something very reassuring about that. So to have that as a through line also as identity diversification, so that if something goes sideways with the podcast or something goes sideways in Family life that You have diversified your psychological health on some level because it's not Totally invested in One basket.

1:22:01 So I would say That speaks a bit to how I've been choosing things. It's making your mastery versus like mitigating like mitigating risk. More managing.

1:22:13 That's how I've been thinking about it for myself and I feel for myself. I need something. That is inspiring as the most important thing. Now, that's not always going to be the case, right? If you have a family member who has an acute health emergency, it's like, okay, that may be the most important thing. But if you have the flexibility, if you have the ability to choose. I want something that's inspiring because that inspiration, that breathing in. generates

1:22:44 Energy. It generates The excitement and the life force for lack of a better term. That then

1:22:55 trickles down to everything else. But if the thing I choose is kinda depressing or it's avoiding something bad, it's running away from something as opposed to towards something. Then It doesn't work for me. It really doesn't.

1:23:09 You said a few different things there, but one thing that stands out to me is Just this idea that meaning Isn't a nice to have. It's described this way to me once and I I like this that Because life is suffering.

1:23:23 You need To pursue. meaning that justifies that level of suffering. One hundred percent. I've been thinking a lot about this as well. So let's say the most famous person

1:23:35 in the world about meaning would be Victor Frankl It is creation of logotherapy. out of the Nazi Germany concentration camps, he's a psychologist and a Jew, and he's going through those experiences and he, you know, crafts his story and man's search for meaning. But just building on that, it's like he's sometimes

1:23:52 would try to if he was in therapy with somebody, he would say You know, they would say, Oh, I just want to die, you know, I'm like I've got no reason to live and he's I don't know precisely the words you would use. But

1:24:02 He's effectively saying, Okay, well then You sort of why haven't you done that? Like what is it that actually Keeps you here then. And the meaning could be as And I don't mean it's trivial, but it might sound trivial. It could be well

1:24:13 I have a cat and I need To feed the cat. Those answers were not nothing to him at all. He would use that as sort of a gateway. To being able to reconstruct a life. Of meaning.

1:24:26 Because the something some meaning that can be built upon. And so I really think this isn't Und uh

1:24:34 taught and underappreciated idea. And I think it distinguishes itself Considerably from Productivity. 'Cause you you could be productive at all sorts of things like that you

1:24:46 shouldn't even be doing, or they don't really motivate you, don't drive you. You could be doing task Execution all day long and feel really meaningless. In your life. Finding something Meaningful.

1:24:59 Something beautiful, something creative, as you're describing. not consuming, changing the ratio of consumption to creation. I think is one really kind of Self evident. Shift uh I think

1:25:13 A lot of people would benefit in. Yeah, consuming it does not fill you with meaning. creating anything, even if it's not very good at first, you just Being in the act of creation, I think, is closer to meaning.

1:25:26 So I struggle a little bit like People will describe what I'm into. Oh yeah, use a productivity thing. I never self identify that way. Because

1:25:36 Like essentialism, for example, is about not about doing more things, it's about doing more of the right things. Essential, the very word, it means very important. It's trying to craft your life around the highest meaning activity you can currently Kanja.

1:25:51 I think it's about as good an antidote. So the psychological Traumas. And and taxation of our lives that exists. I'm maybe it's the only one really.

1:26:02 This idea like of radical gratitude, it radical gratitude is expressing Thanks for things you're not thankful for. Because that's what gratitude actually is. I mean, if you look at the definition of gratitude, I did not know this. So

1:26:13 Just a few years ago. I thought Changer, game changer. And it meant be grateful for the good things in your life, that is remember them. Express them.

1:26:24 Focus on them. That's not the definition of gratitude. If you look up a definition of gratitude in the dictionary, what you find is that it's living with a spirit of thankfulness. And that's not the same thing. 'Cause that's not just for the quote unquote good things, that's for everything. And as I was thinking about this, I was like well

1:26:40 That was a game changer for me when My daughter Eve was very ill. With it. undiagnosed neurological condition. Which is just l free falling in her executive function.

1:26:51 I found that Radical gratitude was a way out. Of sort of the madness. of not being able to control the situation and watching someone the picture of health suddenly become mentally and physically Hugely incapacitated on the way to

1:27:05 Being in a coma. So I learned it there. But as I was talking about yesterday when I was sharing this with someone, I thought well it's so easy to Point back to that. Because it all worked out in the end, right?

1:27:14 you know, years go by and okay, it's resolved, so I can point back to radical gratitude there, but can I do it now? And I thought Can I express this idea out loud? Because it sticks in my throat as I even as I go to talk about it now. Can I say out loud?

1:27:31 I am thankful. But my best friend of thirty five years. Is fatally ill. With cancer. Because

1:27:39 I want to rage against that. That phrase That idea. It feels so I won't say wrong because that's not quite right, but it

1:27:49 Is something so violating about that expression. But it's in the expression of it that you open yourself. It's like an act of faith that opens Meaning. That's invisible until you express the first half of the equation.

1:28:07 Because opening oneself to the idea that there could be meaning in this suffering. And there's such a gift in that. So it's sort of hidden behind this Action I don't want to take the expression of it. I'm grateful for this challenge because

1:28:22 Like one of the thoughts that Came to me just yesterday about this was because Now I need to live I don't mean in a guilt way, but I need to live double now. Like I cannot just go through life.

1:28:34 I must live it. Alive. in a sense living it doubly because he can't do that now. So the forty to fifty years Hopefully maybe. that we could have had together that that is not happening now. That's not going to be the story. And I still find that unimaginable. It's almost impossible for me.

1:28:53 To get my head around that. But if that's the reality What's the possible meaning in it? This I think is like Something like the actual test of life.

1:29:03 is to Open oneself. To the possibility That there is meaning in suffering. That suffering isn't because God is a vivisectionist that C. S. Lewis is language for it. Like you have to decide has got a vivisectionist

1:29:16 Does he take pleasure in suffering or is there meaning in our suffering. And that's only one answer to this question. But To take responsibility for my life in a different way.

1:29:27 To value the remaining Years and hopeful decades. differently. It's like I have a responsibility burned into me. Like a scar.

1:29:38 Like a scar. I don't think I could have it taken away from me. I don't think so, but I certainly don't want it to be. It's like no that ska ska stays. I need that scar. And I want to live

1:29:51 out of that understanding. And just try to make good on the years I get that he doesn't get. And there's something about that I mean it's I'm obviously still Living in the grief of all of this, but I think that's one way to detect.

1:30:05 Meaning that can save us. You know. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. No that's

1:30:13 Can't be easy. to think about. And feel but I do Appreciate the Opening.

1:30:21 oneself to the possibility that you can be grateful not just for the obviously Uplifting and positive things, but to tag on. That I am grateful for X. Difficult thing because dot dot dot. To cue the mind.

1:30:38 Mm. Hopefully produce. Something. That And gender's meaning.

1:30:45 Even when overwhelmed with suffering. Yeah, plenty for me to chew on there too. That's my own lived experience with it, but it's also you can go back and forward the trail of research about this, you know, the whole post traumatic growth Literature.

1:30:58 That is those people that go through trauma and don't just First of all, there's sort of three options, right? You can collapse through it. There are some people that return to level as before. That would be kind of the resilience mindset. And then there's this other phenomenon happens less often, but it does happen and has been identified, characterized, codified, and studied.

1:31:18 Is people that Move to a higher level. Of living. Post the trauma. So we you know, we've all been

1:31:25 very familiar with PTSD. post-traumatic growth is less referenced, which is just too bad, because I think that's really the thing you want to understand. That that is a way. But we can in tangible ways Have beauty for ashes.

1:31:41 That it it's not just a poetic idea, and it's not just Nice to have it's like If there's so much suffering And those are the raw materials. through which we can actually build a life of meaning.

1:31:53 It's like oh okay, so now I need to embrace it differently. not spend my whole life just trying to avoid it or to You know, in a kind of positive toxicity. You also can't avoid it. You cannot avoid it, Yeah. Impossible.

1:32:07 It's just like all right, I wanna drive for the rest of my life without hitting any red lights. It's like it's not gonna work. So you might as well figure out how to handle red lights. It's a great metaphor for it. Anna will say to me, you know, from time to time No one gets out without a mortal experience. And

1:32:22 There's a term for this, it's uh called sunder. And it's a term for that the experience of of sort of remembering and knowing that other people's life is as complex. And emotionally challenging and so on as our own and it's not obvious all the time because it's easy to come up With

1:32:37 shallow stories about other people. I hear it quite a bit from people, Oh, well that person's all right, you know, because they're Maybe that person has money or but because that person's famous or because that person's you know, appears to be above the fray. And it's like I actually think it's a sort of a limit of imagination, certainly a limit of empathy, but to realize like no, not one of those people is escaping.

1:32:58 the mortal experience of suffering that all of us are. Yes, maybe they have different set of problems, or maybe they have possible solutions that you wish you had access to. I mean Obviously people are in different positions in life. But man, I have never met a person that could escape. Even close to escaping it.

1:33:14 It's like you can't. It's hardware into I don't want to call life a simulation, but like If you say it is for a moment, it's like, yeah, it's hardwired into this. You cannot escape it. This is why I think so many people try to actually Pursue distraction.

1:33:28 Of any number of kinds, because of an attempt to avoid The pain and suffering. And I think most addictions really are that. at the core to avoid the experience of being alive, and that's because it's so painful to be alive.

1:33:42 Yeah, can be. And so an alternative to that. Is to Open yourself to the meaning. Well This isn't happening for me, not to me.

1:33:50 I don't know a faster way to get there than radical gratitude. Yeah, thank you for that, Greg. And just to reiterate something you said earlier. about, you know, how we can turn the stories of others into these N P C like Extras and video games. Where they're just you know simply. explained in one sentence, whereas we have this raging torrent of nuance in our lived experience.

1:34:12 And a few things come to mind. One, and I wish I had the attribution on this, but someone said, you know, everyone is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Number one. Number two, I interviewed Chris Bosch. very well known basketball player on the podcast. And I'm pretty sure it was him who said Somebody else had said this to him, you know, if you're sitting at a table And everyone else put their problems on the table, you did the same. He's like, You pick your problems right back up. He's like once you saw actually what everyone was contending with. We should just

1:34:41 Underscore that because I think that's such a strange phenomenon. At Stanford University The Stanford. Memorial Church.

1:34:48 If you go into that as a non denominational church from the very beginning But They carve in stone all of these key ideas and one of them is basically what you just said, so I won't repeat it. But that is a strange phenomenon.

1:35:01 There is something that that gives me a glimpse of, you know, a sort of glitch in the matrix in that. Illustration. That Even for the discomfort and the uncomfortableness and the pain and the frustration of our problems Something about them is I think it's beyond just they're familiar to us. I think they are connected to us.

1:35:20 If I were going really philosophical, I would say something like Maybe we knew we'd have these. Like we actually did. Have a chance to choose them or not, like pre here. And

1:35:31 It certainly has that kind of vibe to it to me when you share it and I'm sort of just having it hit me again. It's like yeah, we actually do want these problems. Oh wow, there is something in them that there's something like stepping stones. to becoming what we uniquely need to become next.

1:35:50 to become more and more of who we really are and less and less of who we really aren't, which is, you know, that's the real essence of essentialism. It's not tasks. And to do's and Even goals, it's like a becoming process. And these are the raw materials for doing it. It's not toxic positivity because it's not pretending there aren't problems and not pretending there aren't challenges. It's to open oneself to the possibility

1:36:12 That there's no Of the Way. But this Is the way.

1:36:18 to becoming who we're supposed to become. I'm not saying every single thing in life is like that. I'm not saying the flat tire is the thing. I'm not saying it like that. But These tests of life.

1:36:30 Are actually Some of them in my life have felt signature. That they really are Built. To be in a sense particularly excruciatingly hard for me.

1:36:42 But even in that If you can glimpse the other side of it, like no, but that means that was done with a high degree of care, of thought even. It's a really different way to live, and I'm still obviously just learning in that journey. It's a disciplined pursuit. Of meaning.

1:36:58 Discipline pursuit of meaning. Maybe that's your next book. So we've covered a lot of ground. I think this is Give folks a lot of grists. for the mill things to chew on for the next year. where they want the point themselves, how they want to think about meaning, suffering, mastery, choosing the most important thing. We've covered a lot. Is there anything else we are going to talk about where people can find

1:37:21 The essentialism planner and Also perhaps get started learning more about Principles that we've Cover it in brief here. But is there anything else that you'd like to cover, whether concepts or

1:37:34 Closing words, anything at all that you'd like to add before we wind to a close. I had a really interesting conversation with Eric Newton. Who

1:37:45 Took the social media I didn't know him before. To list what he'd learned. From the biggest suffering in his life. Which was

1:37:54 Well fatal diagnosis of His wife. He described their relationship prior to this as b having lots of ups and downs, you know. Once he described it as a sort of fantastic love affair, but then also like he describes all the problems and challenges that I had him on my podcast uh once I'd read this because someone sent it to me like hey, this is similar to the kinds of

1:38:14 Things you're wrestling with and What's Particularly interesting about the story is that It wasn't just when she got this Diagnosis that things changed.

1:38:25 It was Post that where she got Into what turned out to be the last six weeks of her life. But she hit a regret. And the regret was not having been

1:38:37 Deeply connected enough with the people closest in her life. I thought it was such a distinct kind of insight. He said she suddenly Unlocked. A level of vulnerability.

1:38:51 And intimacy. That he literally didn't know existed. Not just in their relationship, he just didn't know it existed in life. To have someone be so honest, so open. So without

1:39:04 All of those layers of the onion that You had to go back to that metaphor. And so for six weeks he was like okay this Actually is love. They've been married for years and all of these ups and downs, everything. He's like this is what it actually means. And

1:39:18 He summarized it something like this. He's like, If there's a purpose In any of it. It is to have ever deepening connection. with

1:39:28 The people who matter most to you. And I mean I th I was touched by that. I was touched by a story. I was fascinated by that story. But the question I walked away with was how do you live like that normally?

1:39:40 Is there a skill set to it? Or is it just one of those things that you would have to have that extremity To be able to access that. And It links back to some of this research I've been doing on Carl Rogers.

1:39:53 Because I do think that there's a way that we can at least get a lot closer to that ideal in normal Living. And it is a kind of Palpably better. Form of listening.

1:40:05 Then almost anybody experiences in life. It's teachable, it's learnable, like It's there, it's available, but almost nobody's trained in it. The only people that are really trained in Ragerian

1:40:17 Listening. is like psych therapists if they have been. And if they haven't been The risk is enormous. that they will make problems worse in their attempt to make them better because they simply won't be addressing anything like the right issue. They'll be attacking

1:40:31 the leaves of the problem, not the roots of the problem. And they will do that and they'll build in their own mental models of solutions instead of getting to what the real stuff is. And that's the people that are trained in it. Or to some extent. trained in it. But think about like all the doctors that aren't trained in it. That's what happened with Eve, it's just unreal.

1:40:48 That's a story for a different day, but like There were doctors with all this training that They just thought they knew what was wrong with it. If we had done what they had said. She would

1:40:58 Be dead. And it's not about Their expertise in a sense it's their expertise was the problem. Is that they didn't have the humility to be listening properly, and so I think that's the thing I want to say is that I do think

1:41:11 There is a form of listening that we can provide for each other that is so powerful that's so curative. And I do sometimes think It's the primary thing missing. In modern life.

1:41:23 My son just said it to me recently. I mean it's so many things I've got wrong. As a parent. Is a person But he just said that if there was ever a problem, I knew I could come and I knew you would listen.

1:41:34 So even if it was something you were doing that was frustrating, I knew you would listen. That's not passive listening. It's a very particular kind and Man, I want to teach that. Man, I really, really want to help people learn how to do this with each other. Where should people go to stay informed of your

1:41:52 Now pending. class related to Yeah, I really want to do this. I'm not kidding about it's not just a spontaneous thing.

1:42:03 I wasn't planning on talking about it, so it is spontaneous, but I really think This has to happen. I mean I think people could just The easiest single thing Go to Gregmacurean.com.

1:42:14 Home page. They can get right now what we do have right now is a less but better course. They'll get it for free. They can sign up in ten seconds. And then we will send information about this Apex listening, or for want of a better term. horses on their

1:42:28 And we'll do them live. And like we'll learn together how to do this. Because It's everything. Thank you, Greg. Really appreciate the time, Greg, and the flexibility with scheduling. It's always a pleasure to

1:42:42 Have a conversation with you. And for everybody listening. As always, we'll have everything that we've discussed linked to in the show notes, Tim.blog slash podcast. And if you search Greg, so McEwen, certainly you can also try with the M C K E O W N, and this will be the most recent episode. As of right now.

1:43:05 And until next time. First of all, thank you for tuning in, everybody. And be just a bit kinder than is necessary. Not just to others, but also to yourself as you're looking forward to the next year. Don't beat yourself up over last year.

1:43:19 Just see if you can plan for Not just a better, but more joyous. New Year. How can you not just do the important things, but do the joyous things? How can you not just do the hard things, but find ways to make those important things? A little bit.

1:43:35 Less effortful. Effortless even. These are all questions worth considering. Thanks, everybody.

1:43:43 Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading. albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash. Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one.

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