Transcript

Advice Line with Travis Boersma of Dutch Bros

0:01 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges, and each week. I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And so if you are building something and you need advice, go ahead and give us a call, and you might just be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message with your name, a bit about your business, and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. Or

0:43 You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com. And make sure to tell us how to reach you. Also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's filled with insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com or on Substack, and we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright, let's go. Joining me this week is Travis Borsma. He's the co-founder of one of the country's most popular coffee chains, Dutch Bros. Travis, uh great to have you back on the show. Great to be back, man. So Travis, you were uh guest on how I built this back in twenty twenty three, and um and by the way, if you guys haven't

1:21 heard that story, type in Dutch Bros and H I B T and Google. to find it and of course we'll put a link in the episode description. It is Such an awesome story. And I think we we even sang together in that episode, right? Is that right? Some Cat Stevens? I think we did, yeah. We did. Well I left my happy home And uh anyway, all the cr the crazy

1:47 Ups and downs and and of course today uh Dutch Pros is a massive business. Nine hundred st over I think over nine hundred locations. Across the US, right? Yeah, we're at nine seventy five. It's so amazing. Congrats on that. Um anyway, Travis, one of the things that that I think will probably come up with the calls today is this idea of of taking baby steps. You know, like like you and your brother Dane started out with an espresso car I mean literally a push cart in a parking lot. And you know, some people might have a food truck.

2:17 And then they want to transition to a brick and mortar, right? And that's a different beast because now you're talking about rent and you're talking about, you know, hiring a team and it's a it's just a it's a different level of stress. Um How did you guys Kind of.

2:33 deal with that transition when you went from the espresso car to an actual store, was that Інтроспект, вона things that you think you did. I don't think so. I mean you s it's kinda like learning how to walk.

2:47 You gotta start crawling. And then you start balancing out and then eventually you make steps and you fall down, you pick yourself up. That's what it is with any kind of business. We went from pushcard to an enclosed mobile unit that you could still move to different locations if you wanted to, but

3:06 where we found our niche was the drive through model. And You know We were one of the pioneers, I think, of of drive thru coffee. And so that was something that was a real differentiator for us and

3:18 it ended up evolving into a a brick and mortar kind of building and and that's really served us. You guys decided at one point in the business to move away from a franchise model. to to to a model where shops are actually corporate owned.

3:33 They're run by Dutch Bros employees um who've been promoted up through the ranks, so similar to like a Chick fil A or In and Out. It's not something that a lot of Brands uh do, um quick service restaurants do. Why do you think that model Works.

3:50 better for you. Well I think The thing that was always most important to me. was scaling the culture and doing the right thing for the people.

4:01 And so You know, all the people that we have in our organization. They're the ones who Make it. what it is. They're the ones who provide the experience. They're the ones who have the fire in the belly the

4:13 The operational know how, the ability to cultivate culture and lead people. And You know, we made a decision back in two thousand eight to only grow from within and not sell franchises any longer to anybody else because Well Some people had great business acumen.

4:30 teaching the culture and scaling the culture That's just different in nature. It's interesting because uh if you want to grow fast, the franchise model is a good way to do it. I mean, you look at five guys, you look at Dave's hot chicken, we've t told both those stories on the show. Um and that's worked for them. At the end of the day, like they their growth has been explosive.

4:48 Uh you guys have still managed to grow. And grow grew quickly. with that corporate owned model, which requires more money. You eventually you had to take on outside investment. I think you you s you you resisted that for about twenty five years. Well, we never had to do anything. We chose to.

5:04 And and that's the beauty in in business. You know, I don't think there's a wrong way. in in the way that you grow. I think that there's just ways that are better for some than others and for us. With our model. the company owned model made the most sense. to scale and grow, protect and cultivate the culture.

5:22 Yeah, for sure. Um Travis, why don't we why don't we bring in our first caller and find out how we can help him? Sounds great. Alright.

5:29 Colour. Hello, welcome to the Advice Line. You're on with me and Travis Borsma. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hey guy, hey Travis, thanks for having me on. Um my name is Sean Chang. I'm calling from Atlanta, Georgia. I'm the co-founder of Mocha Korean Fried Chicken. It's a fast, casual, Korean American restaurant. We use southern classics like fried chicken, mac and cheese, slaw.

5:52 Mixed with Korean flavors and techniques to be an approachable way for people to try Korean food. Love it. Well well thanks for calling in, Sean. Um so Mukha Korean fried chicken and I say this only because I've been to Korea, but I think Korean fried chicken, like traditionally is just like lightly like light coating of cornstarch or potato starch and fried, right? But this is not. This is actually Southern fried chicken.

6:16 So like like Flower and dredge and stuff. Exactly. So uh on our menu we showcase two different ways. The first one is southern fried chicken, but with kind of Korean flavors infused in that batter as well, as well as the the specialized double frying method. Southern fried chicken traditionally it's slow and slow for a long time. Yeah. But Korean, it's high heat. You're cooking it initially once Almost flash fry, letting it cool down to have all that moisture on the excess side of uplift from the inside and then re frying to order so that it gets that final crisp on that outside. Awesome. So tell me about the business. How did you how'd you start it? How'd you get into this?

6:53 Yeah. It actually starts kind of sad. I was Uh my first year at Georgia, uh University of Georgia in twenty sixteen, my second semester I was in a motor vehicle accident on my way home that left me paralyzed from the waist out. And in that moment I um remember thinking, Oh man, what is life going to be like? The doctor told me I had about a ninety nine percent chance that I would never walk again. And so being the realist that I am, I said, Okay Am I gonna

7:23 Spend my entire life trying at one percent to walk again or continue my life despite this injury. And actually during my time at Georgia, I was cooking for people at my freshman dorm on the weekends. And cooking was something that I was passionate about that I've been exposed to since I was little, that brought a bunch of people in and said, Wow, I'm never had Korean food before, but I I love this And with that I said, Okay, I wanna change my degree from this med school path that I was taking at Georgia to hospitality at Georgia State University. Dude, I love that. That's amazing. Are you do you um do you use a wheelchair? Yeah, I do. I'm paralyzed from the waist down and I've got a permanent wheelchair that I use for my daily mobility.

8:05 So ha ha so you've had to adjust sort of how you cook, right? Low lower down countertops and things like that? Exactly. You could do everything. Exactly. Right? Yeah. What a phenomenal story. Okay. So you decide to kind of shift entirely shift and and now And and you've got a a brick and mortar shop. It's like you go in and order food there? Exactly. We have a brick and mortar in the heart of Atlanta.

8:28 All right, so tell us what what question you brought for us today, see if we can help. Sure. So with margins becoming thinner and thinner in the restaurant industry, we find our original strategy of delivery becoming highly unsustainable with delivery apps like Uber and DoorDash taking margins specifically in the city up to fifty percent. Fifty percent. Yeah. So it it's thirty percent on their end and twenty percent more to be on the marketplace. You you gotta pay to be on the marketplace, right? You get for a good position on the app. Exactly. Wow.

8:57 You're basically subsidizing your food to the customer. Yeah, exactly. And that's why it's it wasn't always like that. But recently it's become more and more aggressive to where you know, where they're slightly bumping it up a little bit higher by a couple percentage, but you have all these other thousands of restaurants in a major city that you're competing against, so you have to cough up more of that margin in order to be on that front page. So with that being said, we know that we have to lean off these platforms um to more of a traditional setting, whether it's dine in, take out, or catering, um in today's market, common wisdom says Uh marketing is key. However, we're a bit lost on how to navigate that effectively. Um what is y'all's advice and on genuine and effective customer acquisition? This is a tough one, Travis, because you guys, I'm sure Dutch Bros uses DoorDash and Uber beats because you're a huge business and

9:49 By and large they work they can work, but for a small business it can be really tough, right? Um So Any any questions for Sean first before we tackle his? Well, first of all, man, I am ready to try some Korean fried chicken. It sounds great. I'm like holy smokes, dude, I'm ready. So really cool concept, love the niche.

10:09 Yeah. You know, we uh To be honest with you, we refrained from DoorDash. Uh uh All these years and and um Mobile order has been a big deal for us and order ahead. And that's what we've incorporated just this last year. We're late to the game, but kind of intentional with it.

10:27 Your own your own app so people can go directly through your app to do it rather than through a third party. You know, and and there's no doubt. I mean What happens in a situation like we're we're in with restaurants is the strong will survive and a lot of lot of people will be washed out. So if you can figure out a way to stay alive and keep on keeping on and find that niche.

10:50 Sean, are you are you profitable right now? And if so, is your margin healthy? So uh we were profitable for the past two years. This year has been one of the most challenging. Uh we've seen our chicken cost um Just exponentially explode. I'm talking more than double for all across the board, some even triple. Um and you know, with

11:13 No. reduction of sales to some degree. We're not bleeding out. Uh we're just breaking even. So we went from 10% to just uh maybe two, two to three percent this year. Um which we're still thankful for. So we are definitely just Yeah, hustle mode of trying to figure out different avenues. And recently we just this past month we've launched our corporate catering uh partnerships where

11:35 We said, Hey, it might be just easier to go to these major, you know, multi million dollar companies that are already having a budget to feed their employees and just lock them in on a month to month basis, taking out the middleman services. So like tomorrow we're uh supplying for a beauty supply store for seventy employees. Nice and they love the food so much. I at first they were unsure because they're like fried chicken, twenty minute delivery, it might not be delicious. And I said here on my dollar on my time Let me feed upper management and have you guys try our food. And they locked us in for a fourteen hundred dollar contract like that and said, Hey, we want you every month. That's awesome. Great job. I I think you know the

12:12 If if you're going out and doing some catering and doing some fun, cool events like that, that's a great way to market your your product in in word of mouth. with where you're at in the beginning is is something that we took huge advantage of and of course when I did it it's Gosh, thirty plus years ago we didn't have the channels like YouTube and and Instagram and TikTok and but but I think you can do some creative things in those spaces.

12:39 And if you can get some people that are ambassadors to your brand to help you with that. That's a great way to go about it. Very little, if anything, at all. Mm. Sean, I've got a radical idea for you, okay? I love that you're leaning into the catering and you should keep doing that, okay?

12:57 But I keep I keep going back to an episode we did with Dave's hot chicken. The way they got that brand to take off,'cause they started a parking lot in East Hollywood, okay, literally with Bunsen burners and you know, like Costco fold up table. They invited they sent an email, cold email, to a guy who wrote for Eater LA and they said, Hey, we love your stuff. You wanna try the best chicken sandwich, come. He came, he wrote

13:20 an article two days later and that was it. It was you could you it was two three hour waits. It was like a viral Kind of thing. And I think there's an opportunity for you to try something interesting, and that might not be through the Korean fried chicken. It might be, but that might not be the way in.

13:38 There is Uh there's an opportunity here, and I want you to think about this, okay? To introduce one or two new items to your menu that no one's doing because there are other people who are doing Korean fried chicken. You know what no one's doing? No one's doing Korean street Snacks.

13:55 Like Uh I remember when I was I was in cr in Seoul I had this snack. It was like a a fried donut filled with nuts and sugar, like melting sugar. I think it's called like hot tuk. Yeah. Do you know what I'm talking about? That is absolutely one of my favorite desserts. Amazing. It's like a fried Funnel cake filled with

14:14 S sweet syrupy sugar and pecans. There's another one it's like shaped like a Like a waffle fish st uh Stuffed with like cold, delicious custard. Why don't you consider doing something like that? And seeing if you can get some hype around that. Yeah, that's definitely a wonderful idea. I think our challenge is because we retrofitted a space that was a second gen restaurant space, we're having trouble with the ability on our line to add new products right now.

14:43 That is the hardest issue. That's why even with our catering, we have the storage space on back to do salads and things like that that people are asking for. Uh, but a dessert program, it's funny that you bring this up because people have been asking for it all the time. You just need a flat griddle. Yeah. You just need a flat girdle. I mean, literally, these are street vendors with like You know F four by four.

15:05 Exactly. Yeah, one of the one of the things that I keep thinking about is, you know, customer acquisition obviously very challenging, especially harder now. It's more expensive. Social media isn't is not as eff as effective as it was four or five, ten years ago. Um But there is a model I I I and I've used this example uh in in seminars

15:29 There's an episode we did on We. We is a uh happens to be a it started out as an Asian food delivery service. Now it's like all kinds of ethnic food. I I'm sure it's available in Atlanta. Larry Lou is a founder. And what they did to get to g to get more customers was If you ordered from we, right, online

15:48 They would send you A link with a Code. And you could send that to a friend.

15:56 And if the friend used the code to order, they would get fifteen percent off their They're order and you would get cash back, like five dollars or something, something significant. It cost we

16:09 A lot of money. It put them in the red for three months. But it but their customer acquisition as a result of that was so enormous that they became profitable in six months and they I think they've been profitable ever since. I'm not saying that's easy to do and obviously you're a small business. And they were two at the time, they were really small. But if there's a way W were your

16:31 customers come in and you hand them a card or something and you say, Look, give this to somebody And if they use this code, uh you know and and you sign up for our loyalty club, we'll give you a discount next time you come in or we'll give you some cash back or something. Try just experiment with things like that because it's the It's the word of mouth that is the most valuable

16:52 Form of marketing. Yeah, I definitely agree about the power of word of mouth. We Are using some aspects of that w in our email marketing where we we just laid out the math very simple. I said, Hey, there's for example, thirty five hundred of you guys. If you guys just shared two people that who've never tried Korean fried chicken or Korean flavors, man, that's seven thousand new customers or people exposed to Korean flavors right off the bat. Super cool. Shan Chang Mukha Korean Fried Chicken in Lama. Congrats on on what you built, man. We're we're cheering you on. Heck, keep it up, dude. Keep up the great work and the drive and and your attitude, man, goes miles. Thank you, I appreciate it so much. It was a a blast to actually just talk with y'all today.

17:33 Wow. Love it. I love it. Pretty cool. It's just so cool. I mean, I don't wanna give away your story too much, I want people to listen to it, but I mean You you you've

17:41 You you've been through. Some really rough times with your business. Um S things that most people just wouldn't be able to withstand. I'll tell you I'll tell you what though, man, that's where all the growth lives. the problems and the challenges and the and the stuff that you think is like nightmarish.

17:58 That's where so much growth and and opportunity live. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar and another round of advice. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Dutch Bros Coffee co founder Travis Borsma. Uh, Travis, why don't we take another call?

18:40 Sounds great. Хело, велком ти авійс лай. Пліз інтродус. Your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi, my name is Trenton Yoder. I am calling from Belleville, Pennsylvania. My wife and I are the founders of Pine Ridge Coffee. We are a coffee roaster and cafe and our goal is to bring people together around a quality cup of coffee. Amazing. Okay, we we' we you we got the right person here.

19:06 For you, uh, Trenton. First of all, a couple of questions. Where where is Belleville? Pennsylvania. Um it is pretty much right in the middle. So um the closest, I guess, major area to us would be State College, so of Penn State University. But it's uh about three hours to Pittsburgh and about three hours to Philadelphia. Awesome. Okay, cool. And it is a it's a coffee sh uh roastry, is it a s is it a shop? Is it a store that you have? Yeah, so we have um one brick and mortar location and then we have a mobile unit as well.

19:36 A truck. Yes. And does a truck constantly tr like drive around or does it do events or what? Um we do a mix of events and then we also uh have some like regular spots and some other areas that we set up in as well. Nice. Okay. So tell me a little bit about how you got into this into this business. Yeah, so I just kind of always enjoyed coffee. I have a lot of memories of just, you know, spending time with friends or family. Um, you know, with coffee. There's a picture

20:02 I was probably four or five years old fishing with my dad and my sister and I had a little thermos cup full of coffee. Um and so, you know, as I went through college I got more and more interested in uh you know, the process of roasting coffee and I've always had a really entrepreneurial bug, you know, I've always wanted to have my own business. So in yeah, October of two thousand twenty two, um, is kinda when we began this journey. And what were you doing before?

20:29 I was a financial controller for a Roofing contractor, so that was um Like a good opportunity just to kinda learn the the workings of a business. Nice. Okay, cool. And tell me um what what's your question for us today? Yeah, so my question is we seem to have a really strong following locally within

20:49 our immediate area. We have struggled to get that same success outside of the area. Um moving forward, we're hoping to grow the roasting side of our business. Um so my question is would you

21:02 go direct to consumer or pursue other wholesale partners, um, you know, other coffee shops or uh distributors and seeking out like grocery stores. Alright, let's unpack their let's bring Travis in. Travis, um We can either answer his question or you might have some more questions. Well I mean it's such an amazing business. I've I've had great joy in being in this this industry and

21:25 How many varietals are you guys roasting? Uh so right now we have about eight different coffees that we're roasting. Um so that's probably three or four single origins and three or four blends. Awesome. You know, when you have your blends and your varietals and you've got your roaster and you think of your packaging and the shelf life and

21:44 Your consumers Your story I think is so critical to your success. You know, and what's the purpose or the why behind What you're doing. So if you're looking at You know, a rustery.

21:57 And a and being a wholesaler. versus a retailer, I think that's dynamically different. Do you have one way or the other that you're looking at more so? Yeah, I think you know, if we're looking, say five years from now, if we have our one brick and mortar and then we have a big direct to consumer business, that's something that

22:17 Um That gets me more excited. Um the dream is that, you know, we have a national footprint as far as where we're going, especially with our online sales. What I mean look.

22:28 Let's let's be honest here. We we've had coffee brands on the show. There's a lot of coffee in it's like microbrewed beer. There's a lot of small Breweries all over the United States, a lot of small coffee roasters across the US doesn't mean there aren't opportunities. There are huge opportunities. But the question is How do you differentiate yourself, right? Tell me

22:53 I would say well I'm I'm in San Francisco, I've got for barrels and ritual and why yours? What's your answer? Yeah, I mean we've just found a way with our roasting process. It's you know, small batch roasted, it's allows us to really keep an eye on quality. It doesn't, you know, give you a bitter after this, even like our darker rose. It finishes really smooth. Um and it's just

23:14 about, you know, we really care about the quality of our coffee. Travis, your thoughts? You know, I would I would really dig deep, like how can you paint a picture for somebody that really looks at it and says, Oh, here we go. Here's something really exclusive, unique. Fun, cool.

23:31 Um I I wanna give it a try. I I totally I totally agree with that, Travis. I mean I'm looking at your website and and you gotta convey that. I mean, I don't think you need to spend uh tons of money and you know bells and whistles on your site, but you have to make it clear about about all the things you just said. Let me make an analogy with wine. You can get the best grapes, the best harvest in i you know, that season and give it to a really mediocre winemaker and you'll get mediocre wine. You can get really mediocre grapes and give it to the best winemaker and get great wine. And what you're telling me is you're a great winemaker. You know how to roast coffee beans

24:08 You believe You're in the top Ten five. One percent. So

24:13 That's a story you need to tell. Because that is m that's interesting. That says to me Alright, this guy's like the roasting king. I gotta try his coffee. Yeah, so um do you have any feedback on like how we could convey that better?

24:27 through our website or through our social media channels. Yeah, I mean, Travis, I'm I'm thinking about how when Dutch Bros began People would come from Oregon and then the Pacific Northwest and they go to other parts of the country and be like, Oh, you gotta try this thing called Dutch Bros, right? You had these ambassadors. Like that's a kind of momentum, right, that that really can help explode a brand. And I feel like you've got an opportunity to do that at Penn State'cause it's a massive university.

24:54 Culturally significant. Um, I would try and lean in there and see if you can Building. A critical mass. that really helps you grow this brand.

25:04 Yeah, I think that's well put. Yeah. And and the other thing that that I would add to that is Success leaves clues. There's so many things you can take away from. A Chick fil A, a Costco. A Starbucks for that matter, a Dutch Bros.

25:20 And You know, when you Kind of look at all these different business models and you admire different ones. What do you admire about him and can you cross pollinate ideas?

25:30 that maybe they do really well and incorporate'em into what you do. You know That's That's some of the the things that That I think

25:39 we've done over the years that has been so beneficial. Yeah. on La Calom coffee many years ago. And Travis, you you you know La Cologne, right? It's a it's a obviously competitor in some ways, but not really. But the guys who started that brand It was a roastary in Philadelphia.

25:57 And the way they got it got attention was they started serving it at fine dining restaurants in Philadelphia and then they went to New York City. And so you'd you know, you'd have customers go to these like super fancy restaurants and they'd say, What's this coffee? And they'd say it's called La Calom. And that's really how they built it out. And so

26:16 Going back to what Travis what you were talking about earlier with baby steps, To me, there's an opportunity to take some of those baby steps here. But Just seeing Pine Ridge coffee isn't enough. And I think you gotta focus on really building out the brand through other retailers.

26:33 Yeah, the more people that you you can Uh put your product in front of um the better. So yeah, I definitely really appreciate The advice they're trying to kinda really hone in. in the state college area and see what we can do as far as gaining some momentum in that market.

26:48 Yeah. Trent Yoder, Pine Ridge Coffee. Good luck, man. Good luck, Trent. Thank you, I appreciate your time today, guys. Thank you very much. Thank you.

26:56 It's so Interesting with coffee, right?'Cause when you start in ninety two, it was still like espresso drinks were still like that's when people still said expresso, right? Yeah. They say I can have an expresso. Oh my gosh, I mean, there's a Yeah. It was it was a massive learning curve. We're educating people on what espresso coffees were. Yeah. Yeah. And people will be like, A latte, ooh, fancy.

27:17 You know what you're doing. I'll take uh Um Cappuccino. And I'd they look at them like And do you want that real frothy and foamy? And they'd look at me like

27:28 Uh and I'm like, How about I make you a vanilla mocha and you check it out and see if you like it, and if you don't, I'll make you that cat. I love it. Yeah. Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the device line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with Dutch Bros Travis Borsma. Travis, uh let's get back into it and take another call. Sounds great.

28:16 Hello, welcome to the advice line. You're on with Travis Borsma of Dutch Bros. Hello, please um introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi guy, hey Travis, my name is Yasmin Santos. I am the sole founder of Alternative Bar. It's a non alcoholic elixir bar serving functional beverages that enhance mood and mind. We're currently operating as a cater bar, offering a white glove turnkey solution for events in Austin, San Francisco, and Miami. Awesome. Yes, man, thanks for calling in. So it's altar like an altar, like at a church, altar native

28:50 Bar. That's right. Alright, s let me just see if I understand this. It's like It's a bar service, so you guys get but be hired for like a corporate event, but you don't sell alcohol, you sell

29:02 Alternative non alcoholic beverages. That's right. Yeah, we use Botanics and nootropics that do facilitate a state change. Yeah, as an alternative to alcohol. Alright, so basically these are

29:14 Mood mind enhancing beverage. This is not like non alcoholic beer. These are like Uh uh w what it w this is not Ashwagandha Magic mushrooms or THC. It's that thing that everybody goes to Mexico to do.

29:33 Uh, ayahuasca, yeah. It's like it's not that. But you're b basically it's legal stuff that has a kind of a Buzz effect. Hundred percent legal. Um, very I like to say they're benevolent botanicals. They are Potent?

29:49 But they're not as powerful I guess as Uh Your typical substances like alcohol and cannabis. Alright, and so tell me how how this idea came about to to

30:00 Start this business. So I was the caretak for my mother, she had early onset dementia. And we got to a point where she was bedridden. And even though she wasn't verbal, we could tell there was a you know a lot of pain and discomfort. So I started exploring

30:16 non pharmaceutico solutions for that and came across a few. And then I was like, wait a second. Um, I don't drink. I have some pains. I and especially like socially, I still have social anxiety and inhibition like anybody else. What if there are plants that

30:32 could resolve this for me. And I came across uh kava and a few other plants. And started experimenting, doing some kitchen witchin'. And came across more and more plants that that really

30:46 Serve our bodies. So basically right,'cause a lot of people use a little bit of alcohol at a party as a as a social lubricant to kinda loosen'em up and You're saying Y you have this a challenge. Which I get,'cause I do too. I hate going to parties.

31:01 But you don't drink alcohol. But this using these Herbs. Kinda g helped you a little bit. Totally. I I'm using them right now.

31:11 Wow. Well and Kava is an I've actually had some experience with Kava in Fiji where we sat down and then he do the whole ritual and it's like over the course of hours and And it's amazing. I mean and you have this feeling of like I it's almost like a euphoric kind of out outer body experience and it's very light but it's incredible and it's energetic. And all right, so you're based in Austin and you're doing right now you're offering like

31:36 events, like a catered event, but like a I don't know, a corporate event or A wedding where there's this alternative bar. And who are the kinds of clients? Who who who are the people who are Who are hiring you. The first event we booked was for a it's called the Young Women's Alliance. They are an organization of professional women here in Austin. I would say

31:57 m more mindful, health conscious people and and also corporate wellness programs that want to be inclusive of sober, sober curious, uh everybody. Yeah. Got it. Okay. And before I forget, what's your question for us? I would love any advice you have for someone like me who's looking to scale this business into the mainstream. And what are some companies that I can use as a model?

32:24 Cool. Travis Borsma, I'm gonna start with you. The man from Dutch Bros brought it from a coffee cart to nine hundred and seventy locations. Well I guess the first question I've got is do you want to take it to the masses or do you want to stay in a niche market?

32:39 I want to go to the mainstream. Mm. Okay. So does that mean like Products on shelves and grocery and

32:47 Things like that. I would love to see that as well as either the caterbar concept or brick and mortar in cities across the US. I wanna bring the plants to the people. We've expanded into CPG. We just did our first run of an adaptogenic blend. What is it? Like like a Yes.

33:06 You got it. It's a tincture. We've got a blend of Rodeo Lens Cassandra and Uh it supports energy, endurance, and ease. Where are you selling it? Uh we'll do e commerce, of course, gonna do Shopify. And then I'd love to get some

33:21 On shelves in Austin and San Francisco. And Grow from there. I think uh you know, another business maybe, is it along the same lines as maybe taking Kimbucha to the masses? Where

33:33 You know, you could Use that as a model maybe of some of the product that you have, but that's Sounds similar to me as far as like exposing a product. That has health properties to it that are good for you.

33:45 That You really want to educate people on and that's one of the ways. With Dutch bros. you know, espresso coffee in ninety two people didn't know.

33:55 what espresso was a lot of people didn't know. And so we had to educate people on it a lot, but It got its own momentum and certainly Starbucks helped everybody with that. But I think, you know, if you're looking for a model out there My inclination would go to a kombucha company, maybe. Yeah, I the other thing that comes to mind, Travis, is uh

34:15 Guayaquil. Black Key Iba Mate, which was on our show a couple years ago. And but that was a long journey. It's like twenty years before they started making money because And by the way, that brand, right? They started out selling loose tea.

34:32 Yerba Mate to people and and they would go to concerts and festivals. And they started this in the nineties and people would try it and it was bitter and they didn't like it and they didn't understand it. And it was a slow methodical Process. Twenty years Driving around in a bus.

34:50 The game changer for them. at the end of the day was Making bottled tea. Right. And and and then now they make cans.

34:58 And a eventually adding sugar and and other flavors. But To me, a tincture is interesting. Um the bar business is interesting, but that's hard to scale. The bar business could be an opportunity

35:12 To introduce a product or the product. to an influential crowd. You're in Austin, obviously South by South West happens there every year. One of the most important cultural Events in the world. you know, cl I I think there's a good chance that someone's gonna hire you to run a bar at South by Southwest, what about ready to drink beverages?

35:32 You know, what about it? Of your drink. You know, guy, I have considered that. I'm a longtime listener of your show. And

35:42 For whatever reason, I can't remember what episode it was, but I am very intimidated by the beverage space. That's fine. T Travis? Okay to be intimidated. Yeah, you know, I I think uh

35:55 I mean one of the things is to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. And uh You know, I sat down with those guys from Guaiquet twenty five years ago that came to our coffee house and we passed a bombilla around with a gourd and the loose leaf and I mean it was it was this hu it was awesome, man. I mean we it was like I felt like I was breaking the law, but it was totally cool.

36:18 I think when you can provide those experiences and you can go spread your product and and you see the joy that you have with it, I mean you're so proud of it. That's That's so amazing because when you can share that with people That creates momentum, focused intensity. Over time. Multiplied by faith or or God or whatever you want to put in that

36:39 You know your creator, then it creates momentum. And I think that, you know, if if you keep on doing what you're doing and you You just let it evolve and you let it e have fun with it, enjoy it. You know.

36:51 Try not to rush it, but But just be methodical about it. I I also I love the idea, Yasmin, that you say that you're intimidated by this, which is which means that probably it might be the right direction to go into and pursue, right? Because Think about it for a moment. The beverage industry and the ready to drink is is is it's very It's a packed industry, right? But so is liquor, so is coffee.

37:14 There's always an opportunity. There's always a wormhole. There's always a niche you can find. And what what you're talking about is Tiny v I mean, very few people are doing these no tropics drinks. It's a little weird and different. It it's like liquid death. Wait What this is water? It's it's not malt liquor. You know, people picked it up because it was so weird, right? And it now, you know, d raised it to one point four billion dollar valuation or something. So I think that it's worth thinking about

37:45 A simple Ready to use, um ready to drink, easy to translate and to explain product. The tincture's cool. But it requires people to like okay, you put this in water and how much and You're it's a very small cr crowd people who'd be willing to play around with that. A can.

38:03 That you open up? Simple. And and the other thing is like The way you told your story to us. I I think that there's so much

38:14 value in your storytelling. You know, what can it do for you? What are the health properties with it? Why is this so amazing? And Who are the people that are consuming it? And can you you know, ride the wave with their momentum and on how they live this healthy, extraordinary lifestyle.

38:31 You know, you've both uh alluded to my approach to this business. It's I surf And what I've noticed is that Uh, so waves come in sets, right? Could be three, five, twelve. And I've noticed that the first waves of the set usually aren't the best ones, at least in my experience. And so the approach that I take to surfing is I wait for my wave. Like I might be a little bit further back in the lineup and

38:55 Um may take a few waves to get warmed up and An an easy paddle back, like Um And I'm waiting for that rogue wave that I'm perfectly positioned to take, that I don't have to compete for, and I have a clear line of sight. And maybe the R T is that way.

39:13 It might be. And and I think as you start to you know, think about this idea and maybe build out a plan. you'll have more clarity. Do you need to raise some money? Do you need to start asking people for money? Um you know there are There are plenty of people who started

39:26 you know, five or ten grand uh and just do a test run. uh there's a you know obviously a lot of co packers out there who who who can you know he can work with So I think that um It's really worth at least putting some thought into

39:44 Building up a brand. Because With the Bartending platform. Especially if you're going to places like Miami and San Francisco, Austin.

39:53 Really sort of important places to showcase products. having something that people can pick up. Could be really cool. My heart agrees.

40:03 Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, I you know your energy with this is is incredible. And I would just encourage you to keep Going and And asking yourself how you can perform better and what you could do to make it even

40:16 more appealing and and who are the people that you want to to have involved in it. We use this little ultimate success formula. It's not your specific outcome. Take massive action toward it. Ask yourself the action you're taking is working and change until it does. And It's like it can you can use that in in everyday life with anything, but that's That's something that has served us in evolving and growing and getting to this place where

40:41 We have this giant vault secret menu. If you will. That Creates all these custom concoctions that

40:50 people really want. I think when you when you identify what they want you're able to deliver it to'em. in a way that is meaningful and has a story behind it that they can be proud of you you're gonna see a ton of momentum happen. Amazing. Okay.

41:03 Yasmin Santos, alternative bar. Uh congrats and good luck. Can't wait to see you build. Thank you so much, Diva. All right. Man, that Kava experience sounds like Sounds good like something, man.

41:16 It was really cool. you know, in Fiji, I don't know of other parts of the world, but I mean that's something that they do. Collectively together for hours on end. And Over the course of time then you can

41:27 Get to this place of kind of this euphoric out of body kind of experience. And it's not hallucinogenic at all. It's just like You know, this floating state change very similar to Guaqui in a way. Yeah, it's cool. There's a lot of there's a lot of interest around these nootropics and you know Brain enhancing

41:46 Herbs. And the reality is, you know, uh alcohol consumption is is in decline in the United States, for better or worse. I mean I I think that uh younger people aren't drinking as much wine or spirits. Uh, and so there may be an opportunity. Yeah, yeah.

42:01 Travis, before I let you go, I I I want to ask you a question that I been asking every return guest on the show. Um if you if you could go back, you know, and tell yourself and Y a younger version of you and Dane, you know Just Give'em some advice about

42:17 what to expect or you know, or or some encouragement. When you guys are starting out. And it was tough tough going. What would you what what would you say to yourself? You know what, I think the first thing that I probably say is adapt or die.

42:31 Mm. Because The world is changing around us. It's all sorts of different ways, shapes, sizes, forms. And

42:42 You know, with covet, it's an example of something that you just can't anticipate that hits ya and If you don't adapt. You're dead. Amazing. I love it.

42:54 That's Dutch Pro's coffee co-founder Travis Borsma. Travis, thanks so much, man. Thank you, guy. Always cool, man. Awesome having you by the way, if you guys haven't heard Travis's original how I built this episode, uh, again, one of the Best episode so good.

43:09 go back and check it out. You'll find a link to it in the podcast description and here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. We opened. Our first day downtown Grass Pass next to the post office and Dane was like I don't know if I could do it, man. He's kinda hiding out in the back and What do you mean he couldn't do it, why? He he just I think uh all of a sudden it just kinda all like

43:34 Oh my god, this is real, we're doing it. Yeah. And I'm like, hang on, dude. I'm gonna go make you a... A little eight ounce mocha.

43:42 Yeah. And I'm gonna put some tunes on. Yeah. And so I put on some Led Zeppelin going to California. Mm-hmm. And

43:52 I got him a coffee. And I said hey man. It's on. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com or on Substack. And of course, if you're working on a business and you like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing. facing because we would love to try and help you solve them.

44:21 You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Sam Paulson with music composed by Ronteen Erablui and Sam Paulson. It was edited by John Isabella and our audio engineer was Cena Lafredo. Our production team at How I Built This also includes Alex Chung, Carla Esteves, Chris Massini, Elaine Coates, JC Howard, Catherine Cypher, Carrie Thompson, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.