Best of MFM: Listen To This Before You Invest Another Dollar

0:00 How would I take 10K and turn it into a million? Circa 2025, you cannot go into the S P. The S P is overheated. So what I would do is I would treat Berkshire Hathaway as the index. If you bought the S P when the PE ratio is 23, your annualized return over the next 10 years was between 2 and minus 2. That's all you have to know. Buffett's made at least 400 investment decisions. He's saying 12 are the ones that matter. The god of investing has a 4% hit rate. Investing is an infinite game. You don't really win all news if the players just decide to drop out. Don't be such a freaking idiot. The riskiest thing in the world is the belief that there's no risk. When the time comes to buy, you won't want to. If I said what's the number one trait? that makes a great investor, what comes to mind. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I could be what I want to

0:50 I put my law in it like my day song On the road let's travel now So let's play a game. You're my coach. You're my investing coach, let's say. And I have ten thousand dollars. And I want to turn it into a million. Right, podcast called My First Million. I want to go from ten K to a million.

1:14 So that's a hundred X. How would I take ten K and turn it into a million? The thing about investing is that Opportunities are not going to show up. Just because you have the cash.

1:26 So I would make some tweaks to your thinking first about the ten K. So I would say okay, the ten K is a good starting point. But I w what I also want you to do. Separately from that is have a day job. Yeah. Okay. And I want you to spend less than you're earning. And I want you to take the ten K and I also want you to take your Annual savings maybe that's

1:49 five, ten thousand a year or whatever it is. And normally I would say put it into an index. Right. the index, like the S P is overheated.

1:58 We can't go there right now. Circa twenty twenty five, we cannot go into the S P. Okay. Okay, maybe twenty thirty five we can, but not twenty twenty five. So what I would do is I would treat Berkshire Hathaway as the index. So I would just say the default Currently. Is you put it

2:15 You know, dollar cost average into the into Burkshire class B shares. And you keep doing that day in, day out. And if we did that You know the the math is really simple. Even if we were doing ten percent a year, right? I mean which I think is pr pretty reasonable for Boksha.

2:33 Rule of seventy two. We would double every seven years. Life is all about doubles. Okay. Let's say we are a twenty something guy with ten thousand.

2:43 And you go for fifty or forty nine years. It's seven doubles. Right. Seven doubles. is um

2:52 One twenty eight. Okay. It's one twenty eight times your money. I gave you more than a hundred X. Right. I gave you one twenty eight X. In forty nine years. Without genius. W without doing anything. Right. So this is just plan B. Right.

3:07 Where we put the ten thousand in, it becomes more than a million, one point three three million with no taxes paid. Right. There's no dividend, there's no taxes, there's nothing. And We haven't even gotten to plan A yet. Right? This is just sitting there. Alright, let's take a quick break because I got a little freebie for you. So If you're listening to this episode and you like what Manicia's talking about.

3:27 You might be like me. You're trying to take notes. You're trying to remember these principles that he's talking about, because the dude is just a wealth of knowledge when it comes to investing. Well, the fine folks at HubSpot listen to this episode. They took the transcript, they put down the nine principles that he talks about, as well as the examples that he have. And they put it all in a PDF for you. So you don't need to take notes. They did it all for you. You can read that, learn from it. That's the much better way to get more value out of these episodes. It's in the show notes below. Just go download that and enjoy. So I wanna ask about the S P because you don't know much about us, but the the short version of uh of the guy you see across from you there, Sam, is Uh, Sam's an entrepreneur. Sam builds his company, he sold his company and he took the money that he made and he said, Look, I worked hard for this money.

4:15 Now I want this money to work hard for me, but I need it to be safe. And says Sam went into a a mostly You know, best practice. Low cost index funds in the SP five hundred. And any time I ask Sam about his strategy or I tell him Dude, you got to buy Bitcoin. Ethereum. You gotta buy this. You gotta put some money over here. Cause I'm I'm like, you know, if Sam is vanilla, I don't even know what I am. I'm some flavor off on the side. That's how that's strange. Tutti fruity. Yeah, over here.

4:41 And I keep trying to pull him over here, but he says no no no, I like vanilla and so he um He basically just says The long term average of the SP five hundred is ten percent. If I just hold this for fifty years, I'm gonna double, you know, this many times. I'm good. But you know, I do get a little wary when um

4:56 Anything seems too safe or too too certain or I guess too taken for granted that this ten percent number over the long term will be the be what it'll be. I guess what would your message be to Sam? If Sam just you know, is he right? Is he wrong? Would you give him a caution of warning if if he was your nephew, he looks like he might be your nephew. If if he was your nephew, what would you be telling? Well On the one hand, Sam, you're right. Because if you if you have more money then you need to eat.

5:19 The first purpose of your money. should be to make you comfortable. It doesn't make any sense. Buffett says. Don't risk what you have and need.

5:30 It d makes no sense. For somebody with a Surplus of money. Two

5:38 Make their daily life less pleasant. By going to investments. that put them under pressure. But there's gonna be a but on your statement, it sounds like

5:50 Uh On the other hand The riskiest thing in the world is the belief that there's no risk. The risk in the markets does not come from the companies.

6:01 The securities. Or the institutions, like the exchanges. The risk in the markets comes from behavior of people. And it's that for that reason that Buffett says When others are imprudent, you should be

6:16 Prudent. When other people are carefree You should be terrified. Because their behavior Understand.

6:26 Raises prices. And makes them precarious. When other people are terrified. You should be aggressive. Because their behaviour their behavior

6:35 suppresses prices to the point where everything's a giveaway. So I don't I mean Look.

6:43 In the long run. You're right about the S P. And Over the over the coming years. American

6:52 Un balance. are going to Produce prosperity. W what what's that defined as the long term? And the

7:01 Well, I I would say Is is is the is the real long term. And I'll tell you in in a minute how I get there. Mm.

7:11 But My favorite cartoon. I have a file of cartoons. from over the years. My favorite one There's a guy He's got his is a

7:20 Car pulled over to the side of the road. The guy's in a phone booth, so you know it's an old Uh cartoon'cause there are no more phone booths. And there's a fa as a factory. Going up in the background.

7:32 And he's screaming into the telephone. I don't give a damn about prudent diversification sell my Fenwick chemical. In other words. Prudent diversification. Calls for

7:44 certain investment positions and a variety of them in a certain Composition. Reality. Says I see Fenway chemicals. Burning to the ground. Get me out.

7:56 And you have you can't ignore reality. Now why do what's reality? In this case, for you. Reality. is recognizing where things stand.

8:08 And J P Morgan Uh. Published the chart. Uh around the end of

8:13 Twenty four. And it was a scatter diagram. Showing over the years. If you bought Yeah, yeah.

8:21 Between The S P five hundred at purchase. And the return. Of the annualized return. Over the next ten years.

8:31 And it looked like this. On this axis we had return. And on this axis we had PE ratio. And it was a it was a a Negative correlation.

8:43 Which means The higher the PE ratio you pay. the lower the return you should expect. Makes perfect sense. And it showed

8:53 There was a number here, twenty three. And uh PE ratio. Access. And it showed and which is what the PE ratio on the S P was at the time.

9:03 And it showed That historically If you bought the S P When the PE ratio was twenty three. In every case.

9:14 There were no exceptions in every case. Your annualized return over the next ten years was between two and minus two. That's all you have to know. I wonder how do you manage your psychology in a period of time where

9:36 your performance is not as good as you want. You seem like a really well balanced, well regulated emotion, you know, emo emotionally regulated guy. But at the same time This is the game you're playing. And how do you manage your psychology during a window of time like that? So yeah, it's a it's absolutely spectacular question. It's funny because I did a sort of dry run through. I'm gonna be talking about

9:59 Uh the fund to our investors in in a day or two's time. And I think it's like It's seven or eight yards that I've underperformed. The S P index in this case. And so I don't know why it always comes up for me when I think of this is the

10:13 published my book and I was invited to give a talk at Google And uh the outperformers was looking better at that point than it was it is right now. And a very smart engineer ask the question, How do you know that the outperformers you've gotten to date is not

10:31 Lock. And my answer then is as it would have to be now is we don't know. Why I'm just one data point. And amongst.

10:39 thousands of data points. And so You know, you're you'd argue that twenty five years is a long period of time, but n eight years of underperformance in that twenty five years is also a long time. And so Yeah, I this was already a year or two ago where I said Um

10:53 In the face of of the performance. What am I going to do? I'm gonna say This sucks. This isn't working. I need to strain change my strategy. And risk. Uh everything that's dear to me potentially.

11:07 Or am I gonna say look? I understand what I'm doing. somehow the market's not rewarding it the way I would like it to be rewarded, but I know that what I'm doing Well in the even in the worst possible cases lead to a really, really good life.

11:22 Even if I am underperforming. And if I take the starters, you know, the the my first investors, friends and family had never invested in equities before. So in their case, even if they're underperforming the S P, they're vastly outperformed that what they would have gotten in fixed income and all the cash instruments that they have there. Save one. Many, many, many times over.

11:42 And and I actually got to have I like to call it courage. where where I kind of realised that the key is to compound. And to take make moves that I know will enable me to compound. And if I can end up beating an index, then that would be great.

11:59 But But I cannot Jeopardize. compounding for the sake of beating the index. I have to focus on compounding and And that leads and and if

12:09 If you step back, I mean I think that you know, this this idea of playing the infinite game, so many people Think they're playing a finite game. But they're playing an infinite game. Explain the difference, finite and infinite games. Yeah, yeah, sorry. So

12:24 So uh finite so it's clear distinction between finite and infinite games. A finite game is one which has a clear set of rules. A clear a space in which it's played out. both in terms of time and physical locations. An example would be chess. There's a set of rules

12:40 it's played across the board and there's a winner and and a loser according to the time controls or a game of American football, it's played an American football pitch. There are N players each side. The game starts and There's a winner, there's a loser. declared according to the rules.

12:55 And but The thing is The most important things in life are infinite games. What is an infinite game? An infinite game Has

13:04 No clearly defined rules, no clearly defined game space, no clearly defined time when it begins and ends. And favorite examples for an infinite game was the Cold War. The Cold War was fought across many battlefronts, whether it was the South East Asia or the you know, b b building nuclear missiles or

13:23 rivalry between the superpowers in all sorts of ways, it didn't not really clear exactly when it started. And Here's the thing and it played uh itself Multiple rules, multiple places. The in in the infinite game.

13:36 You don't really win or lose. Usually one or more of the players just decides to drop out. In the case of Russia, Russia kind of in a way imploded and dropped out of it. What's the most important point? The key The key mistake that we make so often in life is we think we're playing a finite game when we're playing an infinite game. Life is an infinite game. Investing is an infinite game.

13:58 So How many people I would tell you out of I don't know how many funds that were around at the time that I started. How many around today? And it's like less than

14:09 Two percent. Now Some of the people left that game of investing. because they actually were utterly superb. made enormous amounts of money and decided to go and do something else. A famous example of that is Nick Sleep. He's in William Green's book.

14:25 And and so that those people there are those people, but I I did a study of this about ten years ago and there was a Lipper database where I could look up all the funds that were around at the time. They don't really give their reasons for dropping out. If it was But in many cases it'cause they had an in an implosion of one kind or another.

14:43 And so you don't want to be the guy who employs. What's the uh circle the wagons philosophy? Well the circle the wagons philosophy actually came out of uh When I was thinking about Buffett's letter last year to the shareholders, the uh twenty twenty three letter. He he pointed out

15:07 That in fifty eight years of running Berkshire. Uh there were only twelve decisions that he had made. that had moved the needle for Baksha. Now Baksha had a tremendous run. They've compounded uh I mean, till recently were compounding it.

15:24 twenty plus percent a year for fifty eight years. That's You know, if you're doing comp uh if you're twenty percent a year. You are doubling every three and a half years. Okay. And That means after thirty five years

15:37 It's a Ten doubles. And uh fifty eight is another twenty three years. So you've got another uh what, one six Six double so sixteen doubles.

15:51 Uh two to the power sixteen. Now the way to do two to the power sixteen is Two to the power of ten times two to the power of six. Two to the power ten. Round number's one thousand. It's a thousand X, right? And total power six is sixty four. It's sixty four thousand times.

16:07 What you started with. Okay. If you started with a hundred dollars, it's six point four million. Okay, hundred dollars to six point four million. Okay, so he he's saying

16:20 I would calculate in the last fifty, fifty eight years, Buffett's made three or four hundred, at least four hundred different investment decisions. He's saying Twelve. Are the ones that mattered.

16:34 Right. The God of investing. has a four percent hit rate. That's the god of investing. That's why we should index. Right. Well what are the rest of us mere mortals supposed to do? Now the thing is that

16:47 the I was thinking about his twelve bets, right? And I I I thought about okay which were the twelve and I think he never mentioned that, but you could guess which one. C's would be one of them, Coke would be another one, Amex, uh Gillette, Cap Cities, Washington Post, you know, you can come up with the names, you know, uh Oh books your Hathaway energy. A G Jane, hiding a G Jane. Probably were the biggest bet for them with paid off.

17:09 Huge for them. So what I realized when I thought about these twelve bets was It wasn't the buy decision. The buy decision is important. The important thing was they never sold. C's stayed in the stable.

17:25 For fifty years. Coke has been in the stable for forty plus years, right? So it wasn't the buy decision. It was the paint drying decision. Okay. That was the important thing. So When you find yourself in the happy position Of

17:43 A small ownership in a great business. Just find something else to do with your time. Play bridge or whatever. Have you considered golf? I have. Can I ask you about your reading habits? How do you pick what books you read?

18:08 I've never read Any books about how to be an investor. Like You know, multiply this by that and add this and subtract that and the books I've found most interesting have always been the ones about investor behavior. And I mentioned.

18:23 Devil take the hindmost. Uh Ninety nine. Uh Uh one of the greatest books I ever read was uh Before that.

18:31 Uh John Kenneth Galbraith's book uh uh called The Short History of Financial Euphoria. That was really pivotal for me. And since I'm a slow reader. Uh I like the fact that it was only about a hundred pages. And then You know, back in

18:46 Back in uh seventy four, I think, Charlie Ellis wrote an article, Winning the Losers Game. Where he said that because Uh you can't predict the future. Uh active investing doesn't work. He was a believer in the efficient market.

19:00 So rather than Try to hit winners. Yeah, like the tennis player. You should try to avoid hitting losers and keep the ball in play. Um and that has always defined my

19:10 uh investing style. In fact, I wrote a memo in the summer of twenty four or twenty three. Called Fewer Winners. Fewer losers or more winners. And that's the basic choice.

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19:50 There's a great la I think like sort of math paradox that you pointed out, which is that you know a fund I don't know if it was your fund, but any fund it could be You know, never above never in the top ten percent, but sort of never in the bottom fifty percent. And there's a strategy of just consistently being above average will place you in the top five percent. Right. It'll it'll place you in the top percent. Uh can you unpack that idea a little bit? I just I just sort of butchered it. I in uh nineteen ninety, I wrote a memo called The Root to Performance.

20:19 And I had uh dinner in Minneapolis with my client Dave Van Benscoat, who ran the General Mills Pension Fund. And he Dave explained to me That He had run the fund for fourteen years.

20:30 And in fourteen years the the equities, General Mills equity portfolio was never above the Twenty seventh percentile. or below the forty seventh percentile. So fourteen years in a row solidly in the second quartile. Now, if you said to the normal person, not in the investment business, so this thing fluctuated between the twenty seventh and the forty seventh, where do you think it was For the whole period.

20:53 They would say, Well let me think. Probably around thirty seven. The answer is fourth. So if you if you can do well for fourteen years in a row And avoid the tendency to shoot yourself in the foot.

21:08 in a bad year, you can pop up to the top. At the same time A another investment management firm had a terrible year because they were deep value investors and they were heavy in the banks and the banks suffered terribly, so they were at the bottom. So

21:22 President comes out and of course things people in the investment business are great rationalizers. And communicators. And he says the answer is simple.

21:31 If you want to be in the top five percent of money managers, you have to be willing to be in the bottom. Well that makes great sense. Except that my clients don't care. If I'm ever in the top five. And they absolutely don't want to see me in the bottom five.

21:45 So my reaction is the first guy's approach is the right one for me. So That's why at Oak Tree we go for fewer losers, not more winners. Yeah, I love that because it's one of the um Unsexy ideas.

21:59 Any idea you can't You know, make a movie about Or won't make you sound really cool. are generally undervalued ideas when they when they actually logically math out the way the way that one does. And so I I sort of

22:12 That was one that stuck out to me is like nobody's gonna nobody's gonna give you a motivational video about being consistently above average and just never shooting yourself in the foot. Right. Uh it's all about heroic greatness. But huge risks you can take and you know being willing to do it. And so, you know, that's all you hear. But but you know, uh the uh Financial Times of London. Every Saturday.

22:33 They ha they have an article uh called the Lunch with the FT. And they take somebody to lunch and they write an article about the person, the restaurant, and the food. And they Did that with me in late twenty Two.

22:46 And Uh I uh uh my favorite Italian restaurant near the office in New York where I go a hundred percent of the time.

22:56 If I have a lunch. And I and I said to her. Mm. Eating in this restaurant

23:02 is like investing at Oak Tree. Always good. Sometimes great, never terrible. Now that to to me, that sounds like a modest Boast.

23:14 But if you can do that. For forty or fifty. I think it'll compound to great results. Uh if you never shoot yourself in the foot. And I think it's I th I I don't know if the SEC is listening.

23:27 But I think it's descriptive. of what of what we've accomplished. is how long does something take to double?

23:43 Okay, because that basically leads to everything else. So For example, if you look at someone like Warren Buffett, Right. He started He started his compounding journey. When he was like ten or eleven years old.

23:56 I I think he's he would say it's when he was seven years old. He's gonna be Ninety four this year. Okay. Eighty seven year runway.

24:07 So far. Right. Uh now the thing is that If you have a really long runway Then

24:15 a low rate of compounding. would still get you a big number. Or if you have a shorter runway and a higher rate would again get you the same. Result. So

24:27 It's very important in life. Uh And that's why I think that I wish they did this in high school. is to start that engine early. So for example, let's let's take a situation

24:41 of someone who's just finished college, right? At twenty two years old. they got some job maybe like making like you know, seventy, eighty thousand a year or something. And they They put away ten thousand dollars in their four one K.

24:55 Right? They're twenty two years old. In An index. Right. index has done ten percent a year.

25:03 Now what that means is that ten percent a year means that that ten thousand Will double every seven years. All right, today's sponsor is a company that I use that I actually built a company on that I sold for millions of dollars and it took me some zero upfront capital. We had one employee and those are the types of businesses I love. I love lightweight businesses. Things that don't require a lot of capital, don't require a lot of employees, and you can just get them off the ground quickly. And so Beehub has a platform that lets you launch a newsletter about anything. And the great thing about newsletters is It could just take one person, you're just writing stuff that you already know and already enjoy

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26:08 go to behive.com slash MFM and you can actually use the code MFM thirty and get thirty percent off your first three months. So let's take a situation where The person is now sixty four years old.

26:25 Right. No, they started at Twenty. It's sixty four, so it's forty two years. Forty two years is six doubles.

26:35 Right. I do this to make it easy. Right. Okay, so six doubles, right? That's two to the power of six. Tutal power six is sixty four.

26:45 So that ten thousand that the person saved at twenty two is six hundred and forty thousand. At sixty four. But that's not all they have. At twenty three.

26:56 They save eleven thousand. That's Again sitting. At some big number. And you keep going.

27:04 And you know, sometimes we see these news articles there's some guy who's a janitor Or some college and he gives four million to the college and lived in a one bedroom apartment, whatever, right? Why are we surprised? Okay, if you actually run the math, he actually didn't even save that much. And he didn't even have that uh such a great compounding engine. It's not like he found Apple. twenty years ago or something. That's not what happened.

27:29 What what happened was that There was a consistency. And so actually my Oh My pushback to my dad when he was telling me start a business.

27:39 is I was telling him at that time, I said, Look I got a four one K. I got thirty thousand in the four one K, right? I'm gonna um continue to put fifteen percent a year.

27:49 My employer at that time was matching the first two percent. So it was becoming seventeen percent. Tax free, basically. tax deferred and my income's going up over time. So

28:02 I was When I first started working my salary was thirty one thousand, right? So I'm saving Forty five hundred a year, right? But If I was still working, my my my pay would have been hundreds of thousands or more.

28:17 And I'm putting away a lot of money. So by the time I get to retirement, it's like It's Game over. You know, d uh lots of extra cash available, no problem.

28:27 And I never missed the money because it was pre tax. Right. Taken out. So it's just great. So I think I think uh I I wish that Uh

28:37 young people understand that, yeah, listen, you can pursue lottery tickets, you can pursue entrepreneurial dreams, you can do all of that. That's fine. But on the side keep the score. I came across a great quote within the last year. From a guy who's a retired trader When the time comes to buy you won't want to.

29:05 And and that and that that that encapsulated encapsulates So much wisdom. Because What is it? That causes the great moments to buy.

29:18 It's probably the point of lowest uh consensus of but when most people don't believe would be the time that the price is gonna be the lowest. Right. The time with either the most uncertainty Or the most pessimism, or the most fear. Most conservatism. Uh, so you also want to be all those things. What causes those things? You're talking about you're talking about the manifestation.

29:40 What's the cause? Mm. Bad news? I don't know. Bad events. Bad news. Either either exogenous or geopol or or in the economy. Faltering Corporate fortunes.

29:57 Declining stock prices. Widespread losses. And A proliferation of articles about how terrible the future looks. So

30:08 The point that's why you don't want to buy. At the low. Who would want to buy? Under those circumstances. Right.

30:15 So You you talk Before In your introduction. Uh

30:20 About Zigging when other zag. The only thing I'm sure of is that if you zig when they zig You're not gonna outperform. Do you still feel that fear?

30:33 uh you know, the of you like when you know you're supposed to buy, do you still feel fearful or do you feel like Nice. Hello, my old friend. I love this emotion. This is what I'm supposed to do. Right. Yeah, I mean It's not easy.

30:48 But You have to know you have to do it. If you think about it. The fortunes of companies And the outlook for companies doesn't change much.

30:59 What and I'm I'm writing a memo about this that'll come out one of these days. And what changes is how people think about what's going on and think about the future. And co so what changes is the relationship of price to what I'll call value.

31:17 Sometimes they hate'em, sometimes they love him. When they love him too much. You should expect them to probably go down. That sounds like A bull market or a bubble.

31:27 And when they hate him too much. You should expect them to go up. That sounds like a bear market or a crash. And so You have to do the opposite.

31:37 And and Th the same Developments in the environment. That That affect everybody else.

31:44 Will affect you. You're subject to them, you feel them, you read about them, you hear about them, everybody tells you how dire the outlook is. And Y you know, uh It's hard to ignore them.

31:57 But you have to do the right thing in the face of them. Uh nineteen ninety eight. We had Uh uh the Russian ruble devaluation. They

32:07 debt crisis in in South East Asia. And Um The meltdown.

32:15 And one of our portfolio managers who who was young And he said, I think this is it. I think we're gonna melt down. I think it's all over. I'm terribly pessimistic. I said, Tell me why he went through his reasoning. I I said okay.

32:29 Now go back to your desk and do your job. Yeah. A a a battlefield hero and I don't want to compare what we do to being a battlefield hero. But a battlefield hero

32:40 Is Not somebody who's unafraid. It's somebody who does it anyway. And that's that's the way you have to be. Can you get the uh I think there's a monish.

32:57 thing. I don't know, or maybe he'd got it from somebody else. The the two gas stations across the street. I thought this was a great metaphor. So yeah, it comes from um Good to great. So yeah, it's a beautiful uh idea that I haven't thought about for for an enormously long time.

33:14 The idea is, and this is a story I think is in his is in his book good to great Uh two gas stations opposite both opposite sides of the road and The guy in the one gas station You know, when he gets a customer he's made some money, he Paints the wall of the gas station.

33:30 He puts out some flowers, he uh makes his gas slightly cheaper. And These were all actions that the guy on the other side of the road, opposite him, could do. Not only could he do He's seeing the other guy do it right in front of him. right in front of him and

33:48 The fact of the matter is That in so many cases in life The guy on the other side of the road who has all the opportunity to do exactly the same thing as the winning gas station just doesn't do it. And uh you you come to this situation N years down the road. And it's very hard to understand why one is so successful and the other isn't.

34:10 And so you know the the way I think I tell the story in my book is Yeah, I'm sort of sitting with Monash and he's told this story a few times now and I'm like, Yeah, yeah, what a dumb guy on the other side of the road. He isn't copying any of the things that the that the that the one with the successful business is doing. And and I I don't know exactly what happens when I res

34:28 Actually You're the guy on the other side of the road, because here's Mr. Monish Baby doing all these things, and you're not doing any of those things. Why the hell not? Don't be such a freaking idiot. Right. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to I put my law in it like my days off On the roadless travel, never looking back If you made it this far, then you're gonna love what I'm about to tell you. So there's this amazing entrepreneur, his name's Neil Patel, he's been on MFM, he's one of our favorite guests, and he has a podcast that's called Marketing School, and it's brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network.

34:59 Marketing School brings you daily actionable digital marketing lessons learned from years and years of being in the trenches. They have over a hundred million downloads and over twenty five hundred episodes. Marketing School gives you bite-sized marketing wisdom that you can implement immediately, whether you have a new website or you already have this huge established business. You're gonna learn. About the latest SEO, content marketing, social media, email marketing, conversion optimization, and general online marketing strategies that work today. You can get marketing school. Wherever I get your podcasts.

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