Advice Line with Isaac Larian of MGA Entertainment

0:01 Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call and you just might be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at gyros.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description.

1:01 Alright. Let's get to it. Joining me today is Isaac Larion, founder and CEO of MGA Entertainment, the toy company behind Bratzdolls and LOL Surprise. Isaac, welcome back to the show. Thank you, guy. Thanks for having me again. It's great to have you back on. So we first had you on in 2024, and you told us the amazing story. About how you moved from Iran to the US when you were just 17 years old. You s had a couple hundred bucks, you spoke almost no English, and then you would go on to build one of the largest privately owned toy companies in the world. It is an amazing story, and if you guys haven't heard this one, uh you've got to check it out. We'll put a link to it.

1:40 in the podcast description. Um Before we bring in on our callers today, I wanna ask you a couple of questions. First and foremost, I wanna talk to you about something that I know is top of mind for you because you've been all over the the media talking about it, and that's tariffs. Obviously a lot of what you do is imported. You make dolls, toys for kids And

2:00 This is your business. Yes, uh, tariffs are basically tax In the tour industry is tax on children. And these terrifying Or

2:12 Not gonna be paid by The toy companies or or any company. They're not gonna be paid by retailers.

2:21 They're gonna be paid by the consumers. We M G owns the largest Toy factory. And America. In Hudson, Ohio, we employ seven hundred workers. Wow. And you cannot make everything in America, right. You've got to import components and parts, right? Yeah.

2:39 Right. Yeah, exactly. And Milton Friedman. Said this forty, fifty years ago. He used the pencil as an example where the wood is made in America, the lead is made in South Africa, the Eraser is made somewhere else. So That's the way it is. Yeah.

2:59 And so I so it sounds like well like what you're saying, Isaac, is that in principle you're not opposed to targeted tariffs, let's say on steel or you know, or energy or other things, but it's it's on consumer products like toys where obviously you have an interest in it. it's really hurting your business and hurting it the industry. Yeah, it it is. And uh I think there has to be a moderation. Yeah. Um, all right, well let's turn to s to some other issues now because I know that

3:27 You have had some major viral hit toys, right? Um beyond brats. Yeah. I I'm sure a lot of our callers today are are gonna be curious.

3:40 You know, to know if there's any secrets or insights that you can share, like how do you get a product to go viral? Is there a formula that you have? How do you make a product really break out into the mainstream? Yeah, that's a great question. I think innovation is the mother of all successes. And uh You know, first of all I want to take a step back. In order for uh to be successful that uh as an entrepreneur

4:08 You mast embry fail. Mm. And for Every success That we have had. We have had ten

4:17 Failures. I love that. I love that. So I love that. So the first thing is to have that mindset I'm gonna try, I'm gonna fail, and I'm gonna try again, I'm gonna fail, I'm gonna try again until one Hit the chances are it will hit. We have We have a record of that. Once you have a great product

4:39 Then you have great marketing teams who market the product and marketing en toys changes Every day. I mean there was a time When Uh we put Bratz on the Nickelodeon and that's how be it became successful. Yes, I remember that story you told me. Yeah. Yeah. And today no more Nickelodeon. It's

5:02 On it was YouTube, now YouTube has gone to TikTok. God knows what's gonna come next. So you gotta be on the lookout for it all the time. And change, be a chameleon. All right, Isaac, you ready for our first caller? Yes. Please tell us your name.

5:23 Where you're calling from and just uh uh one line about your business, please. Hi Guy, hi Isaac. My name is Megan and I'm calling from Hendersonville, Tennessee. My company is T is for taught and we create learn and play kits. For kids ages three to six. Nice. We ship these educational kits all over the country and our kits are designed to support early learning through play based hands on activities. Welcome to the show, Megan. Thanks for calling. So T is for T So these are this is a subscription box, basically, for for three to six year olds? Yes, it is.

5:55 And what they're thematic or they're based around like Different themes each month that they get a box? Exactly, yeah. So every single month there's a new educational theme. There's about twelve activities in every single kit. Uh so for instance for June's kit we have ice cream scientist and the kids actually get to become an ice cream scientist. There's uh math, there's fine motor skills. A lot of play based education. Ninety percent of a child's brain is developed by the age of five. So we want to make learning fun and we want to give them a strong foundation before they start kindergarten.

6:31 When did you found the business? It was actually uh back in twenty twenty, the day before I had my second son. And tell me w the inspiration, the idea behind it. Why why did you want to do this business? Yeah, so I prior to being um a stay at home mom, I was a Teacher, kindergarten teacher in Nashville, Tennessee, for close to a decade.

6:52 And when twenty twenty came, I decided this was a a great time for me to stay home with my two boys. And I wanted to start a business. I was always in the back of my mind, and by the time My kids start at school. I wanted this to be a full fledged business. So that's where we're at now. My second sign is about to start kindergarten. Wow. Okay, awesome. And what's your question for us? Yeah, so with T S for Taught, we built something that parents and kids really love.

7:17 But how do I break through the noise and get real traction with PR? brand visibility um without having to hire a full service PR agency. I've tried some DIY outreach and influencer gifting. Uh with very limited success. So I'm looking for an effective Budget friendly approach.

7:39 Before we answer Megan's questions, any questions for for her? No, that's a great niche, Megan. And if you tweak it and do it right, I think it would become a major, major success. I have five grandchildren And my daughter in law and everybody's talking about Having toys Dead.

7:59 bring uh learning, safe learning to their kids before they go to kindergarten. For the great niche. Thank you. Megan, out of curiosity, I mean it's a as you say, it's you know, you are Small, you don't have a huge marketing budget. How how are you doing? I mean, is the business sustainable yet? Are you profitable? Are you is it you know h overall, how are how are things doing?

8:23 So we are cash flow positive. Everything is being we don't have any investors or anything. Um we've grown 250% from twenty-three to twenty four. And uh we're well into the six figures on track for next year to do seven figures. Wow. So you're that's great. Well congrats on that. So your issue is how do you get more more visibility? And and I would say, I mean, let's just b we're talking to Isaac who's a toy expert. I also have a line of toys with my I do a kids podcast called Well in the World and we We sell our toys or science kits basically. So Isaac, we're not competing against you. like volcanoes kits and stuff. Um we're going after you, Isaac. No, we sell them at you know, through Amazon and and at at Target and Walmart and

9:09 Um so it's tough, right? It's really tough to break I mean Isaac mentioned that this th I think is really critical is you've got to have like several failures before you get a hit. Um and so You know, there's a challenge how do you get how do you get people to not only become aware of it but interest in it. And I wonder what kind of things have you done that So far that you've tried that d don't seem to have worked.

9:32 So what has worked has been meta ads, um, and I Honestly, I've tried to do some gifting on influencers. Honestly, there's been like No traction with that one. The only thing that's really working is just meta ads. So that's about all we've been able to accomplish. I've reached out, I've done a lot of PR as far as like There's been

9:53 You know, a lot of emails sent, but Not much has I've gotten from it. Isaac, let's say you're doing seven, eight hundred thousand dollars in sales a year. What per s wha how much of that would you and that's not your profit, right? That's your sales how much of that would you would you devote to marketing? Yeah, it's a great question. So before I answer that, I need to know what kind of margins you're making, because you need to have enough money for marketing. If you sell something

10:22 too cheap, then you have no marketing. And it's a vicious cycle. So Wha uh is it too sixty, seventy percent? What's your gross margin? Uh we're making about forty percent off of every kit at the moment. And that's including CAC and some other stuff as well, cause customer acquisition. Okay, and what price are you selling them at? They start at thirty eight ninety five and they go to forty two ninety five, and then the individual kits are forty eight dollars. Okay, my first advice for you is raise prices.

10:51 There is no difference between thirty eight and forty nine. So Uh trust me, nothing will change. Actually, sometimes psychologically when you sell something a little bit more expensive, you sell more of them. Because people think oh that's a great thing. That will give you A more marketing muscle.

11:11 And then I am not a fan of PR agencies. You gotta do it on your own, you gotta think outside the box. I would uh the meta is fine. But you're gonna go to TikTok for your product. The the core customer, who do you think is your core customer? Moms. Um mums, yeah.

11:31 I disagree, you see, it's not. is the grandparents. He's the gift givers. So you need to start marketing to Grandparents.

11:43 Once you f start marketing to grandparents because they want to they want to take care of their our gift givers. They want to take care of their children or grandchildren and they have a lot more Disposable income. So I think I would change and market to Grandparents and you can look em up

12:03 uh and see their different group grandparents groups Out there. And you should start marketing to them. Yeah, as far as the influences are concerned, they get Overwhelmed with everything.

12:16 And they like free things. And they get them and they don't do much with it. So It has to be really viral. I mean somebody has to Get w buy actually not Yeah, a famous parent should

12:31 buy one of your product. And they've Talk about it. On social media. Once they do that. You get a big break.

12:39 I I love that idea because it it really does kind of force you, I think, Megan, to think um more deeply about pushing this towards that specific audience. I mean it's worth trying out you know, your own sort of videos where it's specifically design for grandparents. Just try that. I mean in addition to to, you know, videos from moms. Because you are thinking about people like you buying it, right? Which we all do. We all we're all like, oh well the people like me are gonna buy this. But actually I think Isaac's onto something. I think i i that's exactly right, Isaac. It's that

13:13 It's grandparents sending this this to their grandkids. As a subscription, knowing that you know They're gonna help. Make their grandkids smarter. Yeah, yeah.

13:23 And and Megan, when you do the videos, you gotta think outside the box. I mean the biggest happiness for anyone you have two kids you see it is a laughter of a child. Nothing replaces that. So you're gonna shoot videos where kids are just on their own playing with your product. And then edit that and put that down. That's how it becomes Wider.

13:49 Okay. That's awesome advice. Thank you so much. Yeah, I love it. The brand is called T is for Todd. Megan Foster. Thank you for calling in. Good luck. Thank you. I'm a huge fan. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you, good. Good luck. Thank you. Thank you. Um Isaac, how much how much of your disposable income do you spend on your grandkids?

14:06 Oh god. If I could and my kids will let me, I would I will spend all of it on them. Because they are You know, I think grandchids are much better than children. Yeah, I joke and I think God gives the grandkids as a reward for not killing your children when they were growing up. We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller, another question, and another round of advice.

14:37 I'm Guy Raw, stick around, you're listening to the Advice Line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz and my guest today is Isaac Larion, founder and CEO of the toy company MGA Entertainment. We are taking your calls. And let's bring in our next caller. Hello. Hi guy, Isaac. My name is Libby Mo Chen and I'm calling in from New York City.

15:09 I am the co-founder of Fulton. Fulton is a modern brand of Arch support. We offer comfortable, supportive, and sustainable insoles that mold to your arch to provide. Customize support and relieve pain at a fraction of the price of customer bodhics. Cool. So these are insoles. that are designed to relieve to to help with art support, which I love because I wear Birkenstock shoes, I wear Birkenstock slippers. I'm wearing Birkenstock slippers right now because of the arch support, that cork that you get with a Birkenstock. I'm a big fan of Arch support. Yeah. And they're also made of cork.

15:43 Oh cool. A lot of people have collapsed arches. And so tell me how you came up with this idea,'cause it's seems like a category ripe for disruption. Yeah. That's exactly right. I mean I was I was experiencing back pain. I was treating it very reactively doing things like taking painkillers and getting massages. And then I went to a chiropractor and he explained to me that both shoes don't have proper art support and that causes misalignment and

16:09 Pain throughout your body, not just in your feet, but also in your knees, your hips and your back. But the customer thought it's that he was offering were five hundred dollars. And at the time my health insurance didn't cover it and It just felt like a very high price point to pay for what to me was just an achy back. So instead I went to the drugstore and I found myself looking at this wall of The Doctor Shoals and the Super Souls and yeah, whatever it's they're called, super speed or whatever, yeah.

16:35 Very confusing, all these words I didn't know and also materials that were more like gels and foams that Didn't really provide support, we're just cushioning. Um I thought there must be something else out there and Yeah, there wasn't, so decided to to build it. Wow, that's awesome. And and so these are made out of cork?

16:54 No. Urin souls they're hard. They're not like gel. Yeah, the base of them is cork, which is a great material. It molds to your feet as you walk similar to brick and stocks, and it's incredibly sustainable. It's actually the bark of a tree. And then we line it with a layer of natural foam, and then on top is a layer of vegan leather that's made of cactus. So totally sustainable, they're actually carbon negative to manufacture.

17:18 And they have a sort of a combination of comfort and support with uh the cork and the foam. Tell me tell us a little bit about how the business is doing so far. You launched in twenty twenty one, you said? Yeah, we launched in twenty twenty one. Last year we did has seven figures and we've been growing really quickly. It's

17:35 It's been a great process. I've been working on it full time and I have been working on it full time since we launched. Um but yeah, with with this group comes some growing things. Yes. All right, so I know what's your question for us today? Yeah, so Fulton has grown very quickly over the last few years, but we're now feeling the effects of this growth on our resources and on our cash flow. Given the current macro instability, the tariffs, and also our lack of resources. How should we think about growth moving forward?

18:03 All right, Isaac Larry in. In souls cool, cool category. Lots of growth, but now there's the growing pains. Right. Are you making your product in the USA where are you making them? They're manufactured in Portugal.

18:17 Uh, that's where most of the world's cork is harvested. Oh good. So you only pay ten percent duty. Yes. Don't say it too loud. I don't think he will change that. So so that's that's the good news. And how much money do you think you're gonna need to grow your business? Well, I th I think that's a good question. It depends on how quickly we decide to grow. Um, if we sort of want to stay in like single digits or low double digits growth, we could probably grow without like raising any capital, but if we wanted to grow significantly, I think that would require more capital. Um

18:54 We are planning on launching into a new category, which is Like slippers for at home. So we are considering either doing like a pre order to help with cash flow. Or alternatively could try and raise capital, but honestly that's something that we we want to avoid. Uh.

19:09 So you've not raised anything yet. Been terribly funny. Uh no, no, we did a small uh like Angel and Friends and Family rounds. Right. When we first launched Uh but have not raised since we are not venture backed. How big is this market? I think it's about it's one one point five billion. So we have less than one percent of it. So there's definitely a lot of opportunity, we believe.

19:31 Yeah, so I am against giving portion of my company to Some uh an stranger. Unless it's absolutely needed. That partner should bring something to the table. And

19:45 That it's not just the money. Maybe they have operation experience. Maybe they have distribution and retail experience. And it's tough market now, but there are people who are lending or investing. If you have a great business plan, I would do a great business plan. I would show that this an industry that's one point five billion dollar that I've been growing

20:10 uh double digit for the past few years. And that's where the sky is. And then look for investors. You should have that. in order to do this. But again I would hire what I call or partner with somebody who can bring something else to the market. I mean do you want to sell this

20:31 To Mass retailers? I think potentially. I mean, so far we've been focused really on our direct to consumer channel because That's you know, what we know Bass and has been growing so quickly. But I I definitely see an opportunity to get into Target and and differentiate because that's that's the first place that I went when I was looking for insults. Yeah. Yeah, Target is best for it, but if you're gonna invest with somebody, find somebody who can

20:56 Get you into target. Somebody who has experience to do that because they have two thousand stores. And all of a sudden you put the two feet to one feet section It it eclipses directly to marketing, but you have to have a niche in your packaging. And your product.

21:14 To not get lost in the clutter of other products. Yeah, you know, while Isaac, while we've been talking, I've been looking at your site Libby and I I went ahead and I while we're talking, I ordered a pair of the classic insoles. Um, who i in terms of the person you're going after, are you going after people who are just walking and going to work, or are you also targeting You know, athletes and runners, for example.

21:43 Yeah, I mean we we Do both. I mean I think we sort of say anyone with pain is is a great market. I I'd say a lot of our customers are people who work for many feet many hours of the day on their feet. So that could be a doctor or a professor or A bartender and then yeah, of course people who are sort of very active will often develop more issues related to unsupportive shoes. So You know, Isaac, she they're also doing something really interesting here. I think you're you're doing a lot of things right. So when I went to the checkout while we were talking, it it offered me another deal.

22:14 And then I said no, I don't I don't want the and then it offered me another deal and I was like, I thought about it. You know, you're offering well do you want to order three more for for this, you know, forty percent off? And I think that's really smart. I looking at the way you're running your business, Libby I I'm gonna go on a limb here, Isaac. I'm gonna say they should keep doing what they're doing as long as they can. and keep groin as much as they can For as long as they can before they go out and and raise more money. And but you're right, when they do raise money, it's got to be somebody with strong CPG experience who has connections at Target and Walmart and who can really not just get you on the shelves there, but can get you maybe an NCAP or can get you, you know, like maybe a promotional, you know, partnership as well.

23:02 Yeah, absol I agree with you a hundred percent. You know They be as big as MGAEs. We don't have a bank line. We don't have any investors in here. Uh because I did that previously.

23:16 And the banks and the investors are for you. When the it's sunny, when it rains, they all run away. So I agree with Guy. I think you should self run it as much as possible. And then get it into mass merchants. Yeah. Do you see this brand as as in the like down the road as a target for acquisition by like a Dr. Scholes or one of these bigger brands?

23:40 I think so. I mean I think there's a lot of different uh friends. That we could Work with a great partners, whether it's someone that offers existing insults and wants to expand their category, or it could be a comfort footwear brand, or it could be Something more in like the C P G category. I I think there's a lot of great part like potential partners. And then down the road, do you see yourself potentially expanding into other

24:01 Categories like actually like footwear. Yeah, it's definitely something that we're considering. I mean we very much listen to our customers and That was why we started with slippers. It it felt it was the the product that everyone asked for the most. They said, you know, we can put fold in and soles in our shoes as we're walking around, but We can't wear them when we're home. There's no They don't really have supportive slippers, so that's why we're starting.

24:21 But I definitely I think that there's opportunity for Another brand of supportive cork footwear. For sure. Isaac, final thoughts for Libby? Yeah, I think I think you're on the right track. Have w I don't know how you market testimonials, authentic testimonials is the best way of marketing. Oh, I bought this, I had my back pain, and it changed my life.

24:44 I think word of mouth is the best form of marketing and that's something else I would do. Especially with a product like this size, like when people are like, Oh my gosh, you know, it completely helped with my posture and maybe offer people incentives, offer them, you know, twenty, twenty five percent off or a freeze, you know, free pair if they are if they'll do that, if they'll post about their experience. And then post that on your website. Testimonials is Testimonials are one of the best best way of marketing ever.

25:14 Ask Isaac, look at Lol Surprise dolls, right? Exactly. I mean millions and millions of kids unbox un unpacking those dolls. Right. Good luck to you. Good luck, Libby. The brand is called Full Tim. Congrats. Congrats, thanks for calling in. Thank you. Great advice, Isaac. Yeah, thank you. You're pretty good at it. You're pr you're pretty good at what you do. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I I have a lot of uh I have a lot of scars.

25:40 Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us, I'm Guy Roz, and you're listening to the Advice Line. Right here on how I built this. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking calls with Isaac Larion of MGA Entertainment. So let's bring in our final caller. Hello. Hey Guy and Isaac, I'm a first time caller, longtime listener. I'm Robin Hall from Town Hall. See what we did there. We're based in Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Town Hall Outdoor Co designs durable, purpose built outdoor apparel for adventurous kids using sustainable materials. Think snow jackets, snow pants, and gear for every season for every kid to love outside.

26:31 Awesome. Welcome to the show, Robin. Thanks for calling in. So so Town Hall only for for kids. This is not like a a brand for adults. Correct. We do we dabble in some adult, you know, hats and hoodies and some adult puffies limited quantity, but nope, this is we're laser focused on kids. And you're in steamboat springs, which has winter and summer activities. I'm sure I'm sure mountain biking, hiking in the summer, or horseback riding. The winter obviously skiing. And so. Yep. Yeah. By the way, when did you

26:59 Found the business or launch it? We were we were a Covid baby. So twenty twenty, uh March. I was uh working away at a an incredible career at a little brand called Smart Wool. They make merino wool socks and apparel. And uh their parent company moved them to Denver and our family looked at each other and said, We can't leave this incredible community of Steamboat Springs. I want to raise our kids here. So we're staying. And so I've got to do something. So it kinda came together in this little Venn diagram where we said, Why are we staying in steamboat? It's the kids and community. What are we good at? Outdoor apparel and what are we passionate about and it's a planet and uh keeping our kids dry and and Uh happy to play outside longer. So those four things met in the middle and Town Hall was born. That's awesome. So you already I mean you were at Smartwall, you already had industry experience and you're you figure, hey, I've got the connections, I have the know how Let's do this. And and did you did you raise capital? Is it s totally self funded?

27:52 It is self funded. We are approaching a funding raise because we need to, as as you'll hear from some of our questions, we have been, as my my pal Missy Park from Title Nine says, we've been hitting singles and it's been going great. We're growing, you know, steadily, but boy, we need to c start stringing together some doubles here to really give this a go. We hired our first employee. I took my first salary last year. So good things are happening. Um, we're in, you know, distribution and REI. We're partnering with uh Title IX on a jacket this fall, but really there's you know, I we see the opportunity, it's proven, we need to get some money in to really keep driving. Got it. Okay, and what's your question for us? Yeah, my question is Isaac, gosh, your grit and ability to make take big risks is awesome, and I'm I'm in awe. Um so we're wondering. What bold move would you make to help Town Hall break out, and how do you know when it's worth the risk?

28:41 All right, great question. Isaac Larion. Robin, I before I answered that question, I have a few questions. Please. How big is your business? Yeah, we're at we're hoping to do three hundred K this year. Okay, and uh and what profit margins do you make?

28:57 We're at about direct to consumer, we're at about sixty five ish. Um and then of course we do we're in about 17 wholesale stores around the country. Okay, that's great. My last question is uh why'd you call the company Town? My name is Robin Hall. Uh so we needed to do something with my last name. It it it you know works well. And a town hall is a community gathering place where everyone's welcome to share ideas, impart change and come together. It's kind of the community hub, and that's what we we like to be. Okay, I appreciate it. So Sorry for being very direct.

29:33 Please. It's great that you using your last name in the business, but that name Town Hall doesn't resonate with the product you're selling. The first thing I would do is come up with a name that people can relate to. So they don't think about a town hall with President uh Trump or somebody else. But that's the first thing I would do. It could be a division of

29:59 The town hall. But change the name. Because names matter. And I'm gonna give you one example. You know, when we came up with Bratz We came with over twenty five, thirty different names.

30:13 And we tested them, none of them resonated. And I wanted to have a five or six leather Word. For the brand. So and Brats with an S

30:25 Had the negative connotation with it. So we went with Bratz, that was a gusty Move to do. We change the S to Z And if you look at the brass logo, it has a halo on the top. That means that they're angels. But the name by itself created Newsworthy Buzz.

30:47 And was very important to change the company. As far as raising money. I don't like private equity. Bank loans are okay. I wouldn't give a portion of my business to Somebody else

31:03 I would try to sustain the business I have, have a business plan, go to your local bank I get the loan. And to fuel your company. To feel your company. Mm.

31:15 Isaac. Uh first of all, I appreciate your very, very s very honest feedback. And here's here's what I would say to you about that, Robin. We have had I would say more than you would imagine. Brands on this show.

31:29 That four five years in change their name. Poppy is a great example. Poppy, which just sold for 1.8 billion dollars, did not start out as Poppy, start out as like Mother's Earth or something like that. And they only changed it to Poppy in 2019, like four years in. So it's not as sort of daunting as it sounds. I mean you could still continue to call it town hall and continue to sell the apparel and and and disregard Isaac's advice, but if it's something that you did want to think about It's very doable and it's very it's a lot more common than you imagine. So it's it is a possibility, and not to say you you don't have to do it, you should do it or not, but I'm just saying it's a here here's what I would say about a bold move. One of the things that I've noticed, right, and I'm sure you know this, is that kids, especially the target age you're you're talking about.

32:17 They just get crazy for a certain kind of brand. Like I especially, you know, I I look at my boys now, they're all wearing Viore. I don't know why all of a sudden they are we did Viore on the show a couple years ago. They're all they all wanna wear Viore. Girls. Aviator Nation. The girl the uh preteen girls all want to wear that sweatshirt. And so what is it that they're doing I think it's worth exploring. To see.

32:41 who is wearing that product and why and how do you identify those people. H what kind of marketing are have you been able to? Obviously you're limited with the you know your budget, but what kind of marketing have ha Have you seen That's maybe worked for you so far.

32:57 Yeah, I mean back to this kind of community notion. We did eighty-four days of events last year from everything from the Vail Kids Adventure Games to partnering with REI, the Denver flagship, and having an event outside and bringing kids into our local farmers market. And those Go really far. Having me, the founder, tell the story one to one, giving high fives, handing out stickers, and free frisbees to kiddos are great. That said, it's hitting singles. So that type of marketing is Very low budget, a lot of hustle. Those are the things areas we thrive on. But yes, that is one area where marketing is we just need to raise our brand awareness for sure. I think you gotta take a look at this and look at the bigger picture.

33:40 Yeah, you gotta think, okay, I'm gonna sell my product all over the USA, all over the world. So what is your niche? What's the difference between your product and somebody else's? It's our focus on kids and that it's built and Tested and designed for kids by kids. We do these things called kids insights where we get kids on a blanket in the grass and we ask them a million questions about what they need out of a jacket. w how they want to stay warm, what they think about colors, and then they inform everything we do. So um we're not just doing that kind of shrink it and pink it notion that a lot of outdoor brands do for women and kids. We are really leaning into kids. And then parents love it. And they hand it's so durable, they get to hand it down, you know, to three or four kiddos in their family or community. Have you considered maybe talking to some of the parents, et cetera, who use your product and videotaping

34:34 for them to praise your product and then put it on YouTube. Or face. Because I think that's one of the worst best ways for that market. That's a great call. Yep. And I think, you know, as much as I get daunted by

34:49 that takes so much work or dollars. I think honestly the authenticity and it's very town hall just to have an iPhone and be it doing quick interviews. So to your point, yes, noted that's a good one. Yeah. I I agree with that, Isaac. I mean, I think that that the most authentic your most authentic sales reps are parents who are like,'Cause I'm looking at your site now and you click on a jacket and you've got this cool thing at the bottom, the burr ometer, warm, warmer, warmest, the splashometer, dry, dryer, driest. Uh, which is super cool. It's so so y you wanna hear the parent say This jacket is the best jacket I bought for my kid. Like it's the only one that I've ever bought where my kids are not whining about being cold. You know, and and I think that that's something that you could do, you know, fairly low cost.

35:33 I love that. I love that. And you know, one of the challenges we have is we're ages kind of five to fourteen. And so gosh, when it comes to social media, we're really only talking to kiddos on that upper end. And so we're really successful in the five to ten, you know, small medium are our most successful sizes. So to your point, It's hitting the parents'cause those kiddos don't have phones yet and and thankfully and uh you know, want to the parents are really the influencers there. So great call. Isaac, really quick back to you about Robin's question about a bold move. You said forget about private equity and loans and all these things. And I and I I guess I I want to push push back on that a little bit. I mean obviously the brand is still small. But if there was a partner who is, you know, uh experienced in in the industry like Robin is, but who has capital, and a good distribution network, um why why not?

36:22 come up with some kind of partnership or or bring on some investor. I tell you, the devil is in the detail. Yeah. Most of these what I have seen, they write the contract. The way it is all

36:35 In their favor because you need the money and they have the money. Uh they hardly lose money. They take over your business. So you lose your business. If you have if you have people who you trust It's very important to Uh be partner with you. Uh that's the first thing. And secondly, g get a good lawyer

36:56 to make sure that you're protected down the road. Uh otherwise I wouldn't do it. I mean you can borrow Uh money at a lower pro a lower rate from a bank. And they don't have ownership. I would go that route first, and then I would go to get an investor. if I cannot get enough money from my bank and be very careful with the contract. Spend the money hire experienced lawyer to read your contract.

37:23 So they you're not taken advantage of. Great. I love that I love that advice. Robin Hall, the brand is called Town Hall Outdoor Company. Uh thanks so much for calling in. Change the name Robin. All right, I'll let you know. I'll keep you posted. Appreciate you guys so much. Um You know what, we had we did an episode of our show.

37:45 with Simon Cowell, you know, from uh America's God God Talent, right? Yes and I asked him, I said, you know, you're mean to people. And he said, No, I'm not mean. I'm honest. When I say to somebody don't pursue singing because you're not gonna make a living off of it, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm trying to help them Think about other ways for them to live their lives. Yeah. You know, and I I'm taking some inspiration from him. When you say to somebody, hey, change your name. I think that's you know it's You're being honest. You feel like they have potential. And and one of the ways that they could

38:17 maybe improve what they're doing is by changing the name. Yeah, exact but also the other thing is, you know, I teach entrepreneurship once in a while at UCLA and Calcit LA. And uh There was one guy in one of the classes. That

38:34 It's been going to Yeah school for the past twenty five years. And and I said What do you want to do? Says, I want to be an entrepreneur. I said, You know, entrepreneurship is not for everybody. It looks like you're a professional student.

38:51 Uh at the beginning he he got a little offended, but later on he sent me a note and says thank you so much, nobody ever There to give me that advice. And you're right. Now I'm going into Teaching Rather than starting a business. I love it. It's awesome.

39:07 It's awesome. Isaac, um before I let you go, a question for you that I ask every Every guest who comes on to join me on the advice line, which is now with all of your experience, you know, you've offered a lot of of advice now today to people. If you could go back to you when you were you know, in your early twenties, still just try to figure out what to do with your life and What what advice would you give to yourself back then?

39:31 I would not change anything, guy. You know, I've uh as you know, I washed dishes and waited restaurants until I got My civil engineering degree. And my graduation day was the the most depressing day in my life because I said, My God, what am I gonna do with this? go work for California Highway Patrol and make sixty thousand dollar a year. That's not what I wanted to do. But you know my kids

40:01 As they were growing up, they actually uh dad When you got the civil engineering degree. Why did you do with it? You never worked as a civil engineer. Why go to school? And my answer to them is engineering teaches you how to solve problems. And when you run a business

40:19 you have to solve problems on a daily basis. So it's like a brain muscle And so I would not change anything. I would not change anything really. I love it. That's Isaac Larion, founder and CEO of MGA Entertainment, the brand behind Bret Stalls and Lal Surprise and so many others. Isaac Thank you so much for coming back onto the show.

40:40 Guy, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And by the way, if you haven't heard the story of MG Entertainment, Isaac's episode, you've got to go back and check it out. I know I say this every time, but please do it. It is a fantastic episode. I actually just made a social media clip about the power of no and how Isaac really learned. That the word no is not the end but the beginning of a conversation. So go check out that episode and here is one of my favorite moments. I went to a a guy named Ron Stover who was a buyer at Walmart. Very tough to sell products to. I can't be the next dog.

41:15 He said no. One day he took me to Walmart. and showed me these 98 feet of Barbie products. He says, Isaac, you see these. They own ninety percent market share. They sell and I make my bonuses every year.

41:32 Okay. I said Ron, what if I came up with something better than Barbie and you didn't buy it, you're gonna feel it up? So you came back and told My design team. Give me something that competes with Barbie. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week, and by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com or on Substack.

41:57 And of course, if you're working on a business and you like to be on this show, send us a one-minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues you are currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them. You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondery.com or call us at 1800-433-1298. You can leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And by the way, we'll put all of this in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by JC Howard with music composed by Ramteen Arablui. It was edit by Andrea Bruce. Our audio engineer was Jimmy Keeley. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, Elaine Coates, Chris Massini, Katherine Cypher, Carrie Thompson, Sam Paulson, and Neva Grant.

42:46 I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to the advice line. on how I built this lab.

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