#697: Rich Paul — The Power Broker and Superstar Agent Behind LeBron James, Draymond Green, and Others

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Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to
Deconstruct world class performers to interview them.
In order to tease out
the framework's lessons learned.
Habits, routines, etc.
that you can hopefully test and apply to your own lives. It may just be a mode of thinking, but there's always something that translates. My guest today is Rich Paul.
Rich Paul is the CEO and founder of Clutch Sports Group, the powerhouse agency representing some of the biggest athletes across major professional sports.
Paul founded Clutch Sports in twenty twelve in his hometown of Cleveland, Ohio, where he forged a unique and personal approach to representing top NBA talent, putting athletes first and empowering them to build careers and brands on and off.
The court and some of his numbers are just
Unbelievable. And we get into
Stories from
negotiations, and much more in this conversation. In twenty nineteen, Clutch Sports partnered with
United Talent Agency, otherwise known as UTA. Paul serves as UTA's head of sports and is an agency partner, and he was appointed to UTA's board of directors in twenty twenty.
In twenty nineteen, Paul was also named GQ's Power Broker of the Year and dubbed the Kingmaker.
on the cover of Sports Illustrated. In twenty twenty one, Time recognized Clutch Sports on its first ever list of the Time one hundred most influential companies, and Variety recently named Paul to their Variety five hundred list of the most influential business leaders shaping the global media industry.
Paul is also credited with driving the reversal of the so-called Rich Paul rule, which would have banned agents without a college degree from representing NCAA student athletes.
In twenty twenty one, Paul and three former Nike executives formed a company called Adopt, a creative agency focused on sport, wellness, nutrition, tech.
and other consumer facing products. In 2022, Paul joined the board of trustees of Lacma and the board of directors of Funco and Designer Brands.
And this year, in twenty twenty-three, he joined the board of directors of Live Nation. He is also a minority partner of the Spring Hill Company.
His latest book is Lucky Me.
A memoir of changing the odds. You can find him on Instagram at Rich Paul and on Twitter.
at Rich Paul Four, that is the number four.
And without further ado, please enjoy a wide ranging conversation with
Rich.


Rich, it is a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for making the time.
Thanks for having me, Tim.
I thought we would begin.
with something that came up in my research and that is R and J Confectionery.
Could you please explain for listeners?
what R and J Confectionery was.
R J confectionery was to most people
It was a story which my dad
Owned and operated.
community store sat on the corner of a hundred and twenty fifth
In Edmonton.
On the east side of Cleveland in the Glenville area.
For me, it was
Harvard, Stanford.
And
That's what it was for me. It was
My curriculum.
It was my education, it was where I was
molded and built and taught so many different things.
Just through
Interaction and also
What I would say was just being able to observe.
As well.
Now, w what types of things were you observing, what age were you when you first started spending time there?
Can you just paint a picture for us? Yeah, I was very young. I I probably first started spending time in the store when I was first able to walk.
Yeah.
So
A lot of the customers there watch me grow up.
And over time the neighborhood
Obviously changed.
And so there were great days, fun days where you you know, you were little kid running around the store helping
Picking out candy, eating candy, playing with your friends. And then there were days in which you started to see a difference. I started to see my friends.
Moms
Go from this
Vibrant.
Beautiful.
person to
You know, kinda strung out on crack.
Mm-hmm.
Young men
go from playing sports to now
interacting, engaging in in things as an adult.
I saw
A lot of violence.
But the same time.
It was where
You got to observe and see how people moved and
People that you
looked up to or you thought were cool.
And so it was just this
Combustion of activity.
throughout the day and my dad kinda sat as the air traffic control.
by him owning the store and so
I learned a lot of what to do, I learned a lot of what not to do. I had several
Influences both good and bad, several
Instances in which
I was able to
probably experience some things and hear some conversations that at that age you probably shouldn't.
But at the same time
When I look back on it, I'm so glad I was able to because
It really put a lot of things in perspective, especially for the city I sit in now.
Now on the cover of your book, I believe your
Around
Fourteen, thirteen or fourteen years old. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah.
I'm curious why you chose
that photo or that age.
For the car.
I think that's the age where in life
There's a fork in the road, right?
And I think for me
And it's just in my experience.
That's the age in which
A lot of my friends
started to go down a different
road and that's the age for us growing up where you actually feel like you're
An adult.
I'm gonna make this decision.
You're held accountable for
the Muni League football games and the baseball games and things like that for some
Are not as exciting.
Now I wanna make money, now I wanna
stay out all night and and just do certain things. And so that was the age.
When I I had several pictures to choose from.
But I chose that picture because I think if you think about even now and today's
Especially in in my community.
Across
America where where I come from and all communities like that.
That age is just so important.
That's the age where
You start to
Go down one path or the other.
And I started losing a lot of friends around that age.
Let's hop to the present tense and we're gonna go back to a lot of things that I wanna ask you about, including James Baldwin, who is
endlessly interesting and fascinating to me. But
I would like to ask you about something I know very little about.
And that is the free agency period. So my understanding is that in the frantic period that ensued this past July
You negotiated something along the lines of close to nine hundred million dollars worth of contracts.
I would love for you just to give us a behind the scenes glimps of
How you prepare for that and what
that type of process looks like once the the clock strikes and kind of the game is on. What is that experience like for people who don't have any familiarity?
For those who
Look at it.
On ESPN or online.
It's like okay.
It's midnight, july one.
Phone lines are open, everybody can get to work.
For me and for us, my team.
Free agency doesn't start July one.
In terms of
Your preparation.
You start prepping.
beginning of the year, probably before the season, summer league, there's a lot of things
That you need to prep for a lot of posturing, a lot of conversations.
information just watching what other teams do.
As well as
Development and and kinda giving your guy
some insights as well so he can position himself better and understand what the team is looking for and whatnot.
And so
By the time you get to July.
You pretty much have a decent board.
There could be some times you don't know and there's teams pop up out of nowhere, but
Once that hits, now you s you're taking meetings.
With different teams and if you're lucky enough to have a guy that has multiple teams
then he's trying to decide what fits best for him and his family.
On one end and then you're trying to decide
a number on the other end with that team. And so it's pretty hectic. It's a lot.
That comes with it. I know.
It looks easy, but it's not easy. Doesn't look easy. Yeah. And and we were blessed to reach that number and I'm still in negotiations right now with a couple of guys and so
It never ends.
When you're doing the prep and you say when you have a decent board
And again, I apologize before we start recording, but I'm coming in
very uneducated with this type of thing. I just don't have the familiarity of I've followed a few sports, but mostly boxing and fight sports. So with that in mind, what does it look like to have a decent
Board in front of you.
In terms of what you've
decided or strategy or anything else. What does that look like?
You know, when you talk about a decent board, I I'm speaking about
The options that you may have.
Based upon the players you represent.
This year we had
a number of players that were sought after by a number of different teams. And so when you have those options, that's incredible. Any agent will tell you,
That's very hard to do.
And then it's just a matter of
getting things done in a timely manner. One thing about it
Teams ha like to be able to move and so
If you're moving your feet slow, they have to jump to somebody else.
Very few people.
Team's gonna wait on.
Very few people team's gonna wait on and so when you do have somebody
that teams are actually gonna wait on.
You also have to balance that too because you want to be respectful to them as well and their time.
And so
I try not to string people along.
At the end of the day.
You have to give yourself time, but
There's definitely a balance.
So I'd love to get into maybe a a story or some specifics of the negotiating process because by all accounts
You're considered a master negotiator and
I'll give one example, maybe if you could speak to this.
How did information that you received negotiating for Draymond Green's contract, which I think was four years and a hundred million, inform how you then approached the market for Jeremy Grant, which ended up being five years, hundred and sixty million?
Actually Jeremy's was dumb before Draymond's.
But to answer your question.
Draymond was in a much different situation than Jeremy.
He obviously's older, he's been on the team.
One team for eleven years at the time.
He's a guy that
His stats may not necessarily show his value.
But when you plug him somewhere, he brings a tremendous value. He brings a championship experience, a chip.
He's one of the smartest guys on the court.
Every night.
And so when you're looking at
when you're negotiating for somebody like Draymond.
Analytics and all those things don't really matter.
In Jamie's case
We had already understood what was happening in Portland and
With their star player.
At that time.
But we also
kept the conversation, the communication to understand that
They valued Jeremy there as well, regardless what was going on with their star player.
So that was great to know. And then there were some other teams around the league that
Anybody can use a six nine.
Athletic.
Wing like
Jammy, versatile.
The whole nine.
And it was a matter of
If he wanted to stay
In Portland despite
What may have taken place.
And so
He did.
And he had other teams with cap space that would actually spend the money.
With Draymond.
was a little bit different in order to get to his number.
There was very few teams with the cap space to do that. So now you gotta look at a sign and trade.
Which we had a sign and trade lined up.
But ultimately Draymond wanted to stay.
With the warriors.
That's where he
Was drafted, that's where he's had his success.
And so at that point
You just have to turn and make the best deal.
with the team that he was on. So that's what I was able to do.
So I'd like to and this may be pushing for a tie in, but I'm curious.
What type of gambling
You were referring to when you were younger, right? So when you were a kid. We gambled on everything. If two people had discrepancy, the next word was bet.
And so that was my mentality since I was seven, eight years old.
My dad taught me how to shoot dice and play cards.
And then that led to
Horseshoes or
betting on any sports that you were capable of doing, whether it was
racing from end to end or whether you decided to
Shoot jumpers at the park.
From the top of the key like you would see on White Men Can't Jump.
We really did that at our park.
You know, I practiced it to the point to where I perfected it to where I could shoot with one hand and so allowing me to
I'm betting the guy.
And I'm gonna shoot with one hand and he has to
His bet has to be more than my bet because I'm at a disadvantage, you know, sort of speaking. So
Everything we did whether it was ping pong, whether it didn't it didn't matter what it was.
shooting poo. I didn't want to play poo unless we were betting. I didn't want to bowl un unless we were betting. And so I just had that mentality growing up.
Just everything was about a bet. And so that's the type of gambling that was street gambling.
Prior to me
playing in the casino, but I don't really gamble as much at the casino as I would in the streets. Just a totally different vibe for me.
What are some of the things that made you
Effective.
In street gambling.
And were there any particular games that were your
Speciality or types of bets?
Shooting dice I was special. I had a
You know, like Steph Curry has a great three point shot. I had a great shot. You know, I I was I was Steph Curry a dice shooting for sure.
But there's also a confidence.
And there was also
For some real
Weird reason.
I felt like I can actually talk to the dice and they can speak to me.
That was my pet. Like everyone has a dog or teddy bear, like the dice was kinda my pet.
I would go around and just, you know, and just gamble. I would gamble against anybody. It didn't matter who it was. You know, I would shoot dice against my grandmother. She had some money and wanted to bet.
And that was just my that was just my mentality. So it was great. It was good though. And I and you know, but it was dangerous at times and
I think about it all the time sometimes, like just being behind abandoned buildings or in the basement of a abandoned house and
You know, you got this money and it's for things to go the way they went for me.
I'm extremely lucky.
And if we come back to
the free agency period. I'm curious if
For instance, if you were for whatever reason sidelined and you had to
Coach.
Someone to step in in your place.
to have a lot of the conversations, to do a lot of the planning that you're talking about.
Are there any key pieces of advice that you might give them?
Or warnings that you might give them. Do not do this. I tried this once. It's a bad idea. Any advice that you think would be key?
There's several things, you know, you gotta really watch out for friendly fire.
There's a ton of friendly fire out there.
Friendly fire in terms of
Giving too much information to somebody.
And then they share that information not knowing who they're sharing it with.
And it comes back to
it backfires on you. Yeah, but you in the ass. Yeah, that that that happens a lot.
You know, you gotta prepare.
We've seen things happen this year with guys, and it's and it's not necessarily their fault. They wasn't prepared. You know, you're going into a meeting with somebody.
You have to know.
Pretty much what they're looking for.
and be able to kind of try to feel the answer to the test already.
Patience.
Can't panic.
You can't take any of it personal.
Not a personal thing.
And I always say some people define the business card and some people are defined by their business card.
And so
I don't carry a business car, so I it puts things in perspective for you.
But
Ultimately
Every year I learn something new.
I'm a sponge, man. I like to be
Educated.
I have it.
Different temperament.
Then most would probably have
And at the end of the day
You're only gonna be as strong as your client.
If you have a strong client
They trust you.
And they are lying.
Then
You know, I've been in situations where a deal got done in one day and I've been in situations where it took
Three and a half months.
And I was fine with either one.
How did you first
Meet LeBron.
We met in the airport, Akin Kent Airport.
What was the way in which you guys
Matt, did you go up to him? Did he say something to you? I had a Warren Moon Oilers jersey on that kinda caught his attention.
And then he asked me about the jersey and that's what started the conversation.
And then that led to us
Bumping into each other again at the baggage claim and
I gave him my business card'cause at the time I was
I did have a business card and I was selling jerseys to a store that he can go to locally in Atlanta.
And then when they got back to Ohio
They reached out to me again and then that kinda started the relationship.
How did the relationship evolve from that point?
When I was young, I just my life had really gave me so many different tools and experiences. And so when you're a young kid,
Like they were
I had all the things. I had the clothes, I had the jewelry, I had the car, I had the know how I had the confidence.
And I had the experience and we would just talk, but I think the thing that drew us together
And closer was our our moms.
I was able to
C
Him.
And observe things and
Have conversations with him where he could be
himself and not feel the need to
Protect himself.
'Cause I was going through the same thing.
Or I had gone through the same thing and so
That was really brought us close together.
Was the the family similarity. Yeah.
Family similarity, yeah.
So I know I'm bouncing around a lot, but that's sort of the nature of my mind. So I'm trying to tease out some of the influences or models that you've had. I know you have portraits of a number of different people.
And I understand that one of those is James Baldwin. And I was wondering if you could just
Explain.
what the significance is of James for you or why
You're attracted to him.
Obviously I didn't grow up with him in that space, but
Just watching
Oh, videos and things like that, just what he stood for, how articulate he was, how he saw things and broke it down.
And the way he did it.
I think it's important to really
pay homage to people like that. That room that that picture's in. I have a number of people from entertainers to activists to
actors from some of my favorite movies, both, you know
Mob movies and
movies that was created by the
John Singleton and and Hughes Brothers and so on so forth.
As well as different legends in music and sports.
That's a room of inspiration for me.
But James Baldwin in particular at a time where
It wasn't
popular to be as blunt as he was. It wasn't
Ideal for someone who looked like him to be as
Smart and articulate.
As he was from in not just on the surface, but in depth.
That move me.
You know, and that and that was somebody that I felt like
I want it to have on my wall.
Yeah, I encourage everybody who's listening.
If you are not familiar with the name.
look up James Baldwin. I mean so
Brilliant. So as as you mentioned.
Articulate.
And also very good at
presenting the messiness of life in a way that wasn't overindulgent, but very truthful and bold.
Like you mentioned, and very complicated life.
himself like a lot of people, but I've collected quotes of his for the last year or two. Just an incredible, incredible depth of character. So I encourage people to check out James Baldwin if you haven't already.
You
have been incredibly successful in a world that on some level, at least at points, has
prioritized or highlighted formal degrees.
How has that lens
affected you.
Well, I finished high school.
And a very
High level.
I just didn't need college.
And I actually made an attempt.
to go to college and I actually enjoy school. I really did.
But
My life was different.
And
For what I needed to do.
I felt like
You know, I was prepared.
My dad did an unbelievable job and my environment did an unbelievable job of preparing me.
And
Equiping me with the tools necessary for me to persevere.
True life. I think society
Paints the picture of the
That you need a higher education for
certain things and I think that
When you go to get a job.
They go by
What your education status is, which
Again, for some jobs I understand it, but most kids that graduate college, they're not working in their field.
that they got a degree in anyway, so
I don't know how much that actually added indicator it is. Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
But
I always felt prepared.
Especially for what I do, for sure.
At some point, and again, this is me just looking at some reading in the process of preparing for this, but the NCAA announced a rule at one point that agents could not represent college athletes unless they themselves had a college degree. Now at face value, that seems ridiculous.
And then LeBron dubbed on Twitter this particular regulation, the the hashtag the Rich Paul rule. Why do you think they tried to put this into action? And how did they justify it also?
There was really no justification. I think they tried to put it into action.
To prevent the next Rich Paul.
As much as it was about me.
It wasn't nothing they can actually do to me.
But they could discourage someone else.
And it's no different than
Again, you have to have a college degree to become this person.
If you look at it, if you do the data
That basically
carves out a specific group of people.
that are going to be given opportunity based upon
The completion of a higher education.
Because one thing about life
Life don't always afford you to pay attention.
To
Higher education, especially
When you grew up the way I did in terms of and I know
People had it worse than I did, and so
When you talk about just
Trying to survive and trying to survive the day, the week, the month.
you know, younger siblings and lights are off, gases off. It's a just a different
dynamic and it's it's unfair in a lot of ways because
You basically feel trapped a lot of times, and so
I feel like again
That's just a a discouragement.
Та часанк.
To be able to say why
You didn't give somebody an opportunity because they didn't have this.
But I think there's more people that can actually learn
on the job training, unless it's something like
You have to
code at Microsoft or Apple or you have to
And even that, like
You know, there's geniuses that learn this stuff at home.
They're not learning it from a textbook.
And so I just think it's all bullshit to be honest with you. Yeah. Seems like people came around on it, whether they like to or not, end up on the same page.
What would you say
Or
Any of the best investments you've made, and I'll explain what I mean. You have taken a very unorthodox path to get to where you are.
you have studied and you've learned and observed, like you mentioned.
From a very young age.
So for instance, I'll just give a couple examples. Warren Buffett would say one of his best investments, maybe his best investment, was taking a public speaking course.
Dale Carnegie.
'Cause it sort of amplified everything he was able to do. A lot of people on the podcast have put time into something or energy into something that paid dividends later.
What have been some of the best investments of time or energy?
or money that you've
put in in terms of

laid the ground for something that happened later.
For me it was the dry runs.
Getting down that road.
Driving to get in front of a family.
And coming up short.
I think
It really allows you to decide if this is something you really want to do.
And if so, now I have to figure out ways to get better because I didn't play the money game.
When I got into this business.
I didn't play the money game. I didn't play the
Cut your fee game. I didn't do any of that.
All the stuff that's still going on now.
I didn't do that and I was up against
The bigger agencies that had the perception, the cachet, and they had the alliances.
within these universities and things like that to to help them, give'em information, give families the the number or give the number of families and then sit up a kid in a room and tell'em
Don't tell'em not to go somewhere because they don't want that on'em, but they will tell'em why they should go here. So
Now when you call the coach, they say, Well, I didn't tell them not to come with you, but you didn't tell them they should either.
But you told them they should for this
company that you happen to be represented by and stuff like that. And so I had to deal with
all those type of things and navigate my way around that, which I did.
But that was one of the best investments.
For sure. And then I think the other thing was just
Kinda investing in self, you know, knowing that and believing that
Despite the shortcomings.
Just stay at it.
It'll turn.
And then again in the dice game.
We used to have to be able to say
Can you stand the rain? You know, a guy is throwing point after point after point.
And you know, you would have to stand in there and stand the rain and eventually they turn and
Things go the other way. So I was prepared.
So when you mentioned you you weren't playing the money game, do you mean that you were not cutting your
fees as a way to try to make yourself more attractive. Can you say a bit more about that? Yeah. Not cutting my fees is a way to make just'cause everyone, you know, people don't believe in your work practice or your expertise. And then the bigger companies, they're able to do that because they're just
rolling it all into their
Annual revenue.
So if you got larger machine. Twive different verticals. Okay, so sports is one of them and
You roll it into it and they look at it.
as you know we'll charge the higher less, we'll charge the middle more, and we'll
Charge to lower the max and th they'll be
Appreciative to be here because
We probably shouldn't be representing them anyway and then we'll roll it all up and at the end of the day.
It goes on our books and
I have a clear understanding of the business and so
When you are
On your own.
You don't have that. You can't do that. And so
I was able to get players despite
that and it actually drove them crazy.
It still does to this day.
Yeah, I bet it drive him crazy. So
What were your selling points?
Big agencies have
all of the stuff that we could probably guess they would use to sell, right? We've got all this coverage, we've got all these verticals, we can expand in these following ways, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
What did you find?
over time as you're putting in reps and learning after coming up short and then improving.
What were your main selling points that allowed you to get some of those key
Early folks.
I think
There was a genuineness, they can feel that in the room.
There was an actual real care.
For who they were as individuals and as families.
I just thought different
I labeled education. I wasn't selling anything because I found out very early, there's nothing to sell.
You know, you can go in with your PowerPoint, you know, back in the day we put the C D in and show
all these other people that the company represented, but the reality was those people were never gonna touch those people.
And those people don't actually care about the people that's in this room, so
You know, you're showing that as if it's all a one family and it's not.
And so
I just really
Shine a light on that.
And
The people that
Gave me an opportunity
I did.
Right by them.
Which got me the next opportunity.
Yeah.
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I did.
You said in a GQ interview, which had a great title, so Rich Paul Power Burker of the Year.
that the biggest obstacle or one of the biggest obstacles for young players in learning how to become a pro or be a pro is establishing infrastructure. Yeah. What do you mean by infrastructure?
Most guys that's athletes especially
They've come from an environment to where everyone along the way has made it
About them.
And so if you have the mentality that it's only about me.
Then you're not gonna value
other people and what their capabilities are, what their expertise is.
But
If you're a walking corporation, we can't name one corporation.
That does not have infrastructure.
Organization.
They have an organizational chart.
They have people that
do certain things and there's clarity within that infrastructure.
But it comes with the costs.
And so most athletes don't want to do what?
They don't want to pay.
Anybody to do anything because along the way
Everyone has
Did things for them.
For free.
But it wasn't really for free.
It was to be able to be standing there.
Next to them.
at a time where there was actually something to gain.
So I'll sacrifice this now when you're an amateur.
to be able to stand next to you to get some crumbs or whatever the case.
When you become a pro.
And whatever their their aspirations were, w if it was to hang out, the girls, the travel, whatever it is, the money
Whatever it was.
But you see what they did.
Basically
You create it.
Something that
ultimately became your own demise because up front
You taught them wrong.
You taught them.
Oh, I'm doing this out of love. I'm gonna pick you up, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. All to turn it around on them when they start making money and say, Remember when I did this or I did that.
Well, that's not fair to the player.
And it's also not fair to yourself.
What the conversation should be like is look.
I understand you don't have the ability to
Pay for anything. And if you're a parent, I'm doing it out of love. I love you.
You're my kid.
But if you're somebody else
Just be honest with it. Hey, look.
I'm gonna
Do all I can to help you get to where you need to go.
Once you get there.
If there's a opportunity for me.
And I'm gonna do all I can.
to position myself to where if you give me that opportunity
I can then be of value to you.
Very simple.
Yeah, the
When free isn't free, right? It's an unclear prepayment for things to come later. That's when it seems like things can get extremely messy. How do you help them
when they say sign with you
Or even just start to develop a relationship with you to take the first steps for building out infrastructure.
What are some of the
First steps that you might recommend.
I would say
Checks and balances.
really getting the proper
Financial team in place.
And that's everybody from a CPA to
The guy who manages your investment portfolio or the company that managed your investment portfolio.
really having somebody monitor that.
Because
That's a very
Fragile.
Thing there.
But at the same time deciding what it is that you want. I like to live a certain way.
Now that I understand.
better on how to live.
And so
If you are a single
Man with no family.
Do you really need a twenty thousand square foot home? Probably not.

Right. You're not gonna be home half the time.
Do you really need to fly private? Probably not.
So there's different ways to go about it.
But what's most important.
Should you hire a chef?
Yes, you should.
Should you take a shortcut on that?
No, you shouldn't.
Do you know the difference between a chef and a cook?
You should find that out.
Because this is very important.
Your chef should then go and sit with your nutritionist on your team.
and figure out you should do all the testing, everything you need because your body
Ultimately.
It's the engine that keeps you running.
That's how you make your money.
What are some of the
Key ingredients for
sort of emotional support and stability. I'm just imagining young athletes who are suddenly in the limelight.

They have all the temptations, they have a lot of pressure.
There must be
And I've been I know a few professional athletes who've gone through these periods, periods that are very challenging, and certainly after retirement or the end of their playing years, some very challenging times.
What have you seen
In terms of
the best ways to support. That could be from your side, it could be other ingredients.
Player health on that side of the ledger.
Nowadays I think
There needs to be someone that
Players need to talk to and be open minded to having a therapist to get stuff off their chest'cause they they deal with a lot.
They deal with a lot.
I think it's also important for players to not feel entitled to do
Things, you know, oftentimes they feel like they have to take on all of this onus to do something.
for other people and that's not real because when it comes down to it
If you ask
probably eighty percent of the players that aren't in the position they used to be in.
And ask them who can do for them.
It's not gonna be many.
If any.
For that matter.
Meaning people who who are willing to help them. And then how are they
Positioning themselves to where when the ball stops
It's not about just having a ton of money, like how can I
Do something else. How can I be perceived while playing?
As someone who can transition
And do something else. There's this idea that
I made a lot of money, I don't have to do nothing else. Well that's not true because
You made a lot of money.
But you didn't diversify your portfolio unless your money is making money for you.
And you live a lifestyle in which
your eight percent or your ten percent or whatever it is return.
Each year is able to
Pay your bills.
And your taxes on your home and stuff like that.
Then you gotta go to work.
You have to go to work.
And
It's a big difference when you made
fifty million dollars this year and then next year you make nothing.
It's just tough.
Yeah.
What do you say to the players when they start to take on
That onus you were mentioning, right? So people come to them and ask them.
for things. I'm sure it happens all the time from many different directions, from people they've met along the way, from new people.
When you see someone who's about to take on too much or
Except that.
What does that conversation look like?
They come to me with the conversation.
It's very real.
You know, I don't really have a lot of grey in me.
It's pretty black and white, even though I have on a gray clutch athletics hoodie.
It's it's it's pretty black and white for me because that's how life is, right? Life is
There's no gray in it, man.
Three hundred of the days in Cleveland, Ohio, that's great, but like
There's no real gray in it, man. And and and I just
Want them to understand how important it is to
Get their ducks in a row.
At their youngest age, because that's when they make their money at their youngest age. The average person makes their money between the age of 45 and 65.
The average athlete makes their money between the age of nineteen and twenty five, maybe thirty if they get that far.
It's so hard.
And then learning when to jump off that dream train.
Right.
Yes, I know you thought you was gonna be a hall of famer.
You thought you was gonna be the all NBA guy. You thought you were gonna play 15 years in the league.
But if you play two.
Or three, or five.
Save your money.
Do the things while playing to learn how.
this business actually operates and start to position yourself to where I can still be around the game.
In a different form.
When you look at guys there's a reason why

Coaches.
aren't really X players.
Or ex star players, let me say that.
X Star players.
Because
They wasn't allowed to have the ego that most star players have.
And so they be actually become better coaches.
When you look at a Tai Lou.
When you look at a guy like Adrian Griffin who's getting the opportunity now in Milwaukee.
Well deserved, overly deserved. When you look at guys like
Quinn Snyder.
У
You know Quinn play ball, he was
It's a player.
You know, he wasn't John Stockton.
Right.
But he's a hell of a coach.
And he's gonna make more money.
As a coach.
Then he would.
As a player.
Lou has already done it.
Darwin Ham's gonna do it. When you really think about this,'cause I study this stuff.
A guy like Jamal Mosley.
He tried to play ball and play ball a little bit, but whatever. But as a coach.
He's gonna be
But he paid his dues, you know, went from development to this to that.
And just have the time.
Give yourself time and be patient.
and do the little things necessary to continue to reposition yourself.
And it's going to happen for you.
And that can be a part of the ecosystem.
Of sport.
In any sport for that matter.
So you mentioned
Ego.
And I'd love to focus on this for a second because
It seems like
LeBron as
never been known as someone who's ego driven and
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, of course, but
As someone that talented and that driven, obviously putting in intense amounts of work and dedication
one could imagine a world in which
A person like that would be very ego driven.
And certainly there are counter examples.
What do you think it is that
has led him to be that way.
Or is he just that way right out of the box?
I think he's
That way, but also
LeBron's from Akron, Ohio.
If you ever been to Akron.
There's not much there.
So
There wasn't these things
That
Allowed him to develop this
Ego per se.
When you think about his friends.
Same guys he went to high school with.
Same guys he go back.
What now?
D.
Yeah, he's LeBron, but they still talk crazy to him and they talk about things and they laugh and joke or whatever and
Fall out and get back toget you know, just just
Life. And then when you think about
His business infrastructure, myself, Mavic, Randy, et cetera.
We don't really care that he's
LeBron per se, like
He values our opinion.
We value him.
If we have a discrepancy or disagreement of something
We're not gonna hold our tongue.
Because he's LeBron.
And
That's one aspect of it.
But that's not even what's the most important.
The most important thing in all of that though is
He's not going to
Look at it as if
He can overpower
Or just do something for the sake of doing it because he is LeBron.
See, it takes two to tangle.
And that has helped him.
Along the way.
We all have disagreements and meetings and so on and so forth.
But
One thing about him.
He's egoless enough to know.
When
He should listen.
And
That's just
showing people respect and believing in them and so
I think
That's helped him.
Tremendously. Now we all have egos. Don't get me wrong. You have to have an ego to have confidence.
but you're not invested in your ego.
You're not leading.
with the ego. You know when the ego is supposed to come out the room and when it's not.
When he's at that.
I still call it the staple sinner.
He has an ego.
He's LeBron Jane. That's his show. That's his stage. He's there to perform.
And put on a great show.
Sometimes too great of a show.
If you ask me, I would like them to be.
Little bit more precise with things and we debate about that as well.
Like to talk about how you think about luck. So the the name of your memoir is Lucky Me. Mm-hmm.
Why lucky me?
Why lucky me? I and look, when you think about it, I grew up in my dad's
Store
I learned math through
Playing the numbers and
Selling beer, wine, cigarettes, et cetera, candy.
I was extremely lucky to have that environment. I was extremely lucky to have a dad who
believed in me enough to stress education and to teach
me things that he knew I was gonna need.
To be successful in life.
Not successful for the moment, but successful
for the duration and success not necessarily meaning from a finance perspective, but just from a humanity perspective.
Extremely lucky. I was extremely lucky to go through
Some of the things that I went through
to help shape me and mold me to understand.
life challenges and to be able to
survive those thunderstorms emotionally and things like that to get out on the other side.
And so
In addition to Jay Z
Lucky me being my favorite.
Record.
There's a number of things that I was extremely lucky for.
I was able to make it out of an environment to where many didn't.
And when I say they didn't.
Not because they're dead or in jail, but because mentally
They just can't see past
What's in front of them.
And I'm extremely blessed and lucky.
to be able to do so to the point to where it's gotten me this far.
At the same time it's a little sarcasm to it because
I didn't have my mom.
I didn't have many options.
My entrepreneurial spirit led me down a road of
You know, what some would say was detriment in darkness at the same time.
I was able to persevere through it.
And so
There's a number of meanings.
In between it or amongst it.
But
Ultimately
I felt that was the right title.
It's a great title. And could you say a bit more about the sort of entrepreneurial impulse leading you into darkness, if I heard you correctly, could you say a bit more about that chapter?
Growing up, we had very little options.
And if you had a entrepreneurial spirit
You only
Could be the entrepreneur through hustles.
You know, and that hustle could have been
Everything from
Selling jerseys to selling drugs.
Selling candy to
selling inner tubes from a bike or i every everything was a hustle.
There was no real
Jobs. There was no real
Understanding of corporate America.
There was no opportunities and there was no examples more importantly to see someone
Go to work every day.
Get a raise.
Kid.
Promoted.
then go from being promoted, get promoted again, and then become partner and we didn't have these examples that I have today.
So if we flashback
'Cause it seems like, at least based on some of the notes I have in front of me, one of the through lines for you, one of the themes is possibly how you do one thing is how you do everything.
And I wanted to ask about the
Creasing and ironing.
Your genes.
As a kid. Is that something that you did? And if so, why did you do that?
My sister taught me how to iron my jeans first and foremost.
And then once she taught me, it made me feel like I was an adult at a very young age.
And then I started to
Decide that
Just the detail in it.
and ironing my jeans the way I did and having the creases line up.
And then I perfected that.
And then from there
I realized that oh I can iron really good. So I started to
Advertise my ability to earn.
And so when I would go to my uncle's house or somebody's house and they get dressed to get ready to go to the bar or the club, they can't do two things at once.
So I say, Hey, I'll are your clothes for you.
And there's gonna be a charge for that.
And I made money.
Iron and clothes, no problem. And I think that the detail of it
And my precisess of it.
Allow them to trust me more.
And the more they trusted me, the more I can charge.
So now ironing jeans is one thing.
But if I'm ironing silk pants or a silk shirt
and I knew how to adjust the iron to wool and linen and so on and so forth.
And I built a good business. I m I and I made money every which way like that, right? And but then
Me
Understanding that and willing and wanting to
align those creases properly and take my time to do it.
And prepare.
As such with the iron and the water and light
Starch and things like that.
That quote that she made.
How you do one thing is how you do everything.
That's at its foundation and your approach to it.
Because
Whatever arena you're in.
Just your approach to that.
Okay.
Detail stay in that detail oriented.
Will allow you.
to progress. So that's what that meant.
Usually.
I wouldn't.
Ask about something in the background, but I have to ask, what is the polar bear statue?
In the background behind you.
Looks like a polar bear.
That's just interior design.
Yeah.

Okay. I have a thing for polar bears. That's why I was asking. Yeah. But that's a Ernie Barnes behind me, that picture.
Okay. Yeah. Can you tell me more about the the Ernie Barnes piece?
You seem like somebody who chooses things. I mean, I imagine these things aren't just thrown in your house. I mean, no, they're placed, yeah, properly.
But the Ernie Barnes.
Arnie Barnes is
Oh well.
known black artists.
He's most known for the cover of Marvin Gaye's album.
Yeah, recognize the style. I've never seen that piece, but I recognize the picture at the end of good times. That painting is called the Sugar Shack. Eddie Murphy actually owns the original one.
From my understanding, and I was fortunate enough to
Be able to purchase this piece. This is called the runway.
You know, growing up, I watch good times a lot.
Didn't about art, saw that.
Pitcher.
the whole time. And then as I got more into art, I started to learn different artists. And Ernie Barnes was somebody I wanted to make sure I had
My collection.
Mm.
What is player empowerment?
What does that mean?
Player Empowerment
I know.
That people use this a lot, but it's really player choice.
I think that
Oftentimes people say as player empowerment, you get confused with like
or a player can just do whatever they want.
No, that's not the case.
I think player empowerment
comes to the lens of
Education.
Understanding that you do have a choice.
Flexibility.
And
Just having a mindset that
I don't necessarily have to
Play my career or
Put my career on the same track.
It's somebody else's.
Because that's what
The media or
Anybody would
around my game would expect me to do.
And an example of that is
Reggie Miller was a great player.
He spent his whole time with
The Indiana Pacers.
Dirk Novisky was a great player. He spent his whole time with the Mavericks. Kobe was a great player. He spent his whole time with the Lakers.
But LeBron and K D are great players.
They've been on several teams.
That doesn't make them any lesser.
than an legend or icon.
As those other guys that just named.
But because these people get on these media
Platforms
And try to just create a narrative of what's right, what's wrong, and how something should go versus how it shouldn't. No.
Everybody's career and their journey is their journey.
But I think it's a
Misconception with player empowerment.
Because it's not like they can write their own checks or their own teams.
So it's only so much
power within that empowerment.
But I think the empowerment is
For players to give to empower other players.
to do as you feel necessary within the lines of
Your professional
Positioning
And obviously you
Contract, but
Don't feel
The need to
Have your journey look like someone else's.
Yeah, self authoring. I mean the with
Choice and educated choice, like you mentioned.
Who were the most
Important.
Influences in uh
Developing your confidence.
Again, going back to my dad.
First and foremost.
Um
My brother.
Even to this day when I call my brother about something, he's like
And I'll be talking to him like bro.
You know, I'm thinking about doing this and
What do you think? I think it may work. It's it's like, bro.
It's gonna work.
I've been telling you this since you was a kid.
It's gonna work. Don't even worry about like this is his exact conversation.
But outside of family, you know, I've had a lot of people distill confidence in my uncle Warren when I played
Mini football.
You know, they will put the confidence in you.
You may not like the words.
But
You know that that that there's still the confidence in you.
What kind of things might he say?
Like how did he do that?
I played quarterback when I was in Mini League.
football player and
You know, if I switch to receiver or safety, you know, it would just
You know what you're supposed to do, you know how to do it, you know we worked on, you know we practice on. You can do it.
And that was the mentality and they and they had
We had the expectation of
When Belichick was
Leading the Patriots when the Patriots were
If they didn't want go to the Super Bowl, it was a failed season. Like that was our mini league team. Like if we did not go to the City Championship, something was wrong. And so you go into practice.
With that.
understanding and that mentality
And that expectation on you.
That's what it was. And it and then and even when I was
Young, you know, gambling, shooting dice, my dad.
would instill that confidence in me and
I look, I've had some unbelievable
Come back. You think
The Cavs came back from three one.
You don't know what it's like to
to have a hundred dollars and you down to your last dollar.
Yeah, you
Eleven years old.
And
You got one dollar left.
And you turn that dollar
And to
Two hundred. You roar all the way back. It's it's the uh you know, it's it's uh the redemption trail. Yeah, for sure. It's a unbelievable feeling.
to do that and I had plenty of nights.
like that, whether it was on the basketball court.
Or whether it was at the dice game and I think about those moments all the time. Those were some fun times, man. It really was.
Yeah, formative times.
So why do a book?
There's so much involved, you have to prioritize it, you have to promote it.
Why do a book?
What does it mean to you and what do you hope it will
Do in terms of impact for people who read it.
I think a book
Brings a seriousness to it.
Right, instead of just kind of doing
a visual I think when people really sit down and read a book, you can really dive into its chapters and
Read it again and go back and so the book form was important.
The timing of it was important, just
You know, you look at the state of the world.
How are you sees the world today?

That people may feel like
They have without
being able to have someone hear them.
And so I wanted to write a book to where I shared my experiences, I shared my journey.
But also want to let people know.
That
You're being heard.
And not only are you being hurt,
You can be in a different place as long as you stay in the moment. I know it may seem dark and gray and bleak.
And challenging
But
You tend to think that
Everyone's paying attention.
to you and what you got going on and so you get discouraged.
But in reality, they're not.
Everyone has their own problems.
So just get through yours get through'em. Continue to push, continue to persevere.
And you can end up in a different spot. And I wanted to give kids
That example and just people in general.
regardless of race, regardless of gender, I just wanted to give you
That example and it was the right time for me.
Because I'm in a place to where I'm honestly comfortable enough.
And I feel like I've accomplished enough.
To allow people
And because
Today people want to be.
Rich Paul, they wanna be do the things that I do. They wanna be an agent because of me.
And
Once I got to that point, I wanted to
help him understand
who I really am and why I do the things I do because it's very misleading to say
Oh, this guy became a top agent, he done
four billion dollars in contract and he didn't go to college.
Well.
There's more to it. Yeah, but
The kid
Like he playing Mortal Kombat like just
Sitting there dizzy.
You know?
So
I wanted to give them
An example
and uh understanding and
Paint a picture.
To storytelling.
That they see themselves in.
That same mirror.
And like damn.
I don't have to go out here and rob somebody. I don't have to go out here and kill somebody. I don't have to go out here and feel like I'm not being heard.
He had the same problems I did. Wow, I see myself in that.
And here's an example.
Yeah.
I see every day. I can see him, I can touch him, I whatever. I'm accessible to people. I I like to talk to people when they see me out in the street.
That was encouraging for me. What I didn't want to do is write a puff piece. And that's what I said to my team. I said, if I do a book.
It will not be a puff piece.
I don't wanna write a book on look what I
Did look how much money I made. Look how I don't need to do that.
That could be the second book.
That can't be the first book. The first book people need to know.
who I am at my core, what I've been through.
And it was therapeutic for me and I'm glad I did it.
It was something that I'm proud of and
Hopefully.
When people read the book, they feel inspired by it.
And the subtitle's great also. I mean I love everything about it. I mean Lucky Me a Memoir of Changing the Odds.
And certainly you've
Demonstrated that.
And just a few closing questions.
For you. The first is
If you could put anything on a billboard, this is metaphorically speaking, just to get a message out.
Two.
Billions of people.
Could be image, could be a quote, could be a word, could be something that's inspired you, anything at all.
What might you put?
On that billboard.
You have any ideas?
I would put
Kindness never hurts.
Love is never wasted.
Unity starts with you.
Trust makes it possible.
Community as a mentality.
And honesty keeps it real.
Yeah, I think
You need all those things.
To change the way
People
Are living today.
For the better.
You need all those things to
help uplift somebody, you need all those things to
Unite and collaborate.
And you need all those things to be clutch.
Rich, I've really enjoyed spending time with you. People can find you on Instagram at Rich Paul Twitter.
At Rich Paul Four, the number four. And certainly they can find the new book, Lucky Me, a memoir of changing the odds everywhere fine books are sold. Is there anything else you'd like to say?
Or anything you'd like to ask of my audience? Anything at all that you'd like to add before we wind up?
First I would like to say thank you for having me on.
I know you're not into sports like that, but
Obviously.
you know, I'm doing something right to get your attention, so I'm I'm happy for that. And to the audience, you know, I j I just think you don't have to be in sports. Don't feel like you you know, I have to be in sports to read this book. You don't even
Have to know
how to spell sports per se. And I think that
It's important to really care about
What other people are going through.
Despite what society teaches us.
I think it's important to really
dive into other people's experiences because
It allows you to try to have a better perspective and a better understanding.
of people and so
I'm glad to have mature to the point where I can honestly say that.
Because I grew up in an environment where we didn't care about nothing at all.
Well, Rich, I can barely spell sports but
I can spell
human and your story is intensely human and I think it will resonate with a lot of readers.
And it's a hero's journey of changing the odds, and I'm very excited to see
what it'll do in the world. So Lucky Me, a memoir of changing the odds is the book, everyone. So please check it out. And thank you so much for taking the time, Rich.
This has been
A lot of fun.
And to everybody listening, we'll include links in the show notes as usual to everything at Tin.blog slash podcast. Until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others and to yourself. And thanks for tuning in.
Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel.
It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading.
albums perhaps gadgets gizmas all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends including a lot of podcast guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun again it's very short
a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim dot blog slash.
Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one.
Thanks for listening.
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