Transcript

3 Bad Conversation Habits We’re All Guilty Of

0:00 Hey guys, I really need your help with something. I want you to shape what comes next. for the entree leadership show. By participating.

0:10 In our twenty twenty six Audience study. Text survey. Two Three three.

0:16 Seven eight nine. to get the link or go to ramseolutions.com. slash survey. Once you've completed the survey, you can enter for a chance to win a standard ticket. to Entree Leadership Summit 20.

0:29 twenty seven. Survey closes September 30th. If you're stressed out, angry, exhausted, or carrying chaos between home and work, It's going to come out in how you communicate. And a lot of leaders don't realize it's a problem until they're snapping at their team, apologizing to people.

0:54 or bringing all that frustration home at the end of the day. So Entre Leadership's John Falcons is talking with communications expert Jefferson Fisher and relationship expert Dr. John Deloney about how healthy leaders manage themselves first. So they can show up well. For their team. their business and their family.

1:13 Let's get to it. Jefferson, thanks for being here today. Thank you for having me. Delone, thanks for coming back. Thanks for stopping by. You're welcome. So Jefferson, you spend all your time helping people or a lot of your time I should say. A lot of your time helping people communicate more effectively. Right. And Deloney, you you help people have healthier relationships. True. True. Okay. So

1:36 I've listened to a lot of your advice, you've spoken at our events before And uh you do help people, but It doesn't always go that way. Right? Like sometimes it goes pretty poorly. Right. What what are like the the the top offenders? What are the things that you see people do uh and have conversations go sideways.

1:55 One would be they make up the conversation in their head before they actually have it, meaning they've already anticipated your response. So they're they're thinking about the conversation while they're driving into work, while they're brushing their teeth, and as soon as the other person doesn't say what they thought they were going to say, it it cancels it because they thought the whole thing was gonna be scripted. They they started driving without knowing where they wanted to go. So without having a goal in mind is the sure way that you're not going to get there. Number two, they rush. So they're gonna get very quick, get r very reactive in the way they're gonna communicate. They they feel like the faster the conversation is somehow the better. It's the exact opposite. Much better to say, hey, I'm gonna have a conversation with you over the next few weeks. Turn. Statements and to

2:41 questions. Usually they're very accusatory. акуз акузаційс інста It's much better to turn. that statement into a question and you're gonna get a whole lot more.

2:53 Why do you think Why do you think those are the defaults? Like what Why does that end up being the way people communicate when It's gone badly. Like why do they do that? Because our nervous system is meant to protect us and and we're gonna get defensive. So you telling me something, I'm gonna interpret it usually in the the worst way possible. So you might say something and my interpretation of is oh you're mad at me.

3:15 How many times in the work context somebody goes, Oh, I I thought you were upset with me and Well all you did was say thanks with no period. You know what I mean? Like and so it's very easy to have that kind of filter because our systems always keeping us on the defensive and we're gonna use defensive language. And a lot of times as a leader we hedge. Because we don't want them to be disappointed with us. We don't want to hurt their feelings and so we feel other people's feeling for us. That's why. Talk a little more about heads. What do you mean when you say

3:45 As leaders we hit. We undercut the words before we get them out. So it might sound as simple as okay. Um I I might I might get this wrong, uh but Or uh hey, I hate to bother you. Um but

3:58 And then we Uh yeah, this is gonna be a little uh rough and uh rocky, but uh U you start to h hedge because you're afraid you're gonna hurt their feelings and so uh you know what this is like. You sugar coat.

4:13 Hey, I remember the other day, and I mean it may be I I could be totally wrong here, but it seems like The more you sugarcoat, the more bitter it becomes. So you're right. I do know what that uh what that what that's like. I appreciate you calling that out. Uh because I I have done that. And I actually As I reflect on that Like when I think about

4:36 When I've had to apologize for people for two people for doing things like you just talked about I surely have. I think about like what happened Before I got to that conversation. Mm-hmm.

4:49 I've noticed If I'm driving to work and at every red light I pick up my phone. And I checked email. Or I check text. By the time I get to the door back here.

4:59 There's there's a good odds that I'm A man. Mm-hmm. That I'm already worked up about something. And then I go into a conversation that isn't necessarily, you know, set up to be smooth to begin with. Yeah. And I do not follow your advice. And so I guess that's what I wanna ask you, Deloney, like

5:19 It's kind of a big question, but like How do you as a leader Live a life. You know, what habits do you want to latch on to so that when you hit the door at the office. You give yourself the best odds.

5:32 Of taking Jefferson's advice and doing something with it and not not doing all the stuff that he said, you know People screw up in conversations. For everybody it's gonna be different. The basic principles are are your relationships good? Is your physical health good? Is your are you s are you prioritizing sleep and movement? Like What I would call just human one oh one stuff, right? And if you're redlining all the time

5:54 And then you have to have a hard conversation. Most people have to gear themselves up for confrontation. That's what makes sitting with a good attorney so unnerving. Is there their heart rate is so low during a during a deposition, right? Or during conversation, and it's unnerving because we're ready to fight and you got one guy just smiling at you, right? Or you know like like back you, back in your old college days when you'd get all wasted and try to fight people in the parking lot. Like the guy who was like

6:22 No problem. The guy that smiles at you and just takes his jacket off, like you know a messedeck. But that's a guy that knows I've been training for years and You want to do this. I'll embarrass you in front of your f your your friends, right? So I think it's taking care of yourself so that I can show up and be when you're a leader, dude. You are committing, I'm hiring you, and you can anchor into me and this mission. So I have to do the work to make sure I am Able to be anchored into.

6:48 And that happens outside of this place. Fair enough. What happens let's say You get in the conversation you come through the door. And you've done what you just advised. Uh to to some degree.

7:01 Right. And you've heard Jefferson talk. You know you know what you're supposed to do. But it doesn't go so well. Is there something that you can do to just like hit reset in the moment? Like if you if you're halfway through the day and it's going poorly, is there a way to hit reset

7:16 Halfway through the day. And try and recover from that, or you better off just to go home. Are you talking about a a a specific interaction or just I just show up at work and I'm I'm all over the place today? I think I think more the series of interactions because Jefferson, your advice is like how to handle the situation, but uh as leaders, the people that are watching us, they have that situation fifteen times before lunch. And it's like they're at bats. I can do the right thing, I can stay calm, I can burious.

7:45 But We're not buying a thousand. Yeah. My My harsh advice is You're the leader.

7:52 Like At some point you need to go put on your big boy pants or your big girl pants and be an adult. Right. I've come to a place now, and I don't know if this is scientifically accurate, but I don't know that we can help our feelings. I think our bodies are always scanning the environment trying to take care of us and feelings happen.

8:08 Great leaders, great fathers, great husbands, great wives. Great adults are emotionally mature, which means I have this feeling and I'm gonna go do the next right thing. And on those particular days, if and it's rare, it should be rare. Should be but you gotta reach out and say, Hey, I'm gonna cancel the rest of the afternoon. Like I'm I'm I'm causing more problems here at my workplace, and we've all had days like that. Then be an adult and do that. Or if it is I know I'm gonna come into this meeting hot, so I'm going to look uh

8:35 I love the advice. I'm gonna let the first s words of my sentences be a breath. I'm gonna consciously Pay attention to myself. And sometimes just being an adult. And if you can't be an adult, like and and I hate to be crass about it, but You gotta be if you can't be emotionally mature, you can't expect the people around you too. Yeah.

8:54 That reminds me of uh Patrick Lincioni's book The Motive. And he says, The person in a room That is willing to do the most emotional work. is the person that's gonna lead. Yeah. And so I think what I hear you saying is If you have to actually just like catch yourself and say

9:12 I gotta stop I gotta stop. I gotta that's a huge energy spin because it doesn't happen naturally, right? Like that's working against the grain with your with your nervous system and it and everything that's wired inside it. But do you know one of the surefire ways to become a leader that your people will trust? Get into a conversation and stop and say, Hold on. I'm sorry. I got this whole thing off on the wrong foot.

9:34 Um I'm in charge here and I messed this up. Can we start over? Yeah. You do that. A that's a flex'cause you're modeling I'm in con I'm in I'm emotionally in control. B you said the magic leadership words, I'm sorry. Right, which every leader needs to learn how to say. And then you said let's go again. And man, that's just that sends a message to your whole team.

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11:16 Now Let's get back to the episode. Don't you think people Лідер ст. To apologize is to give up

11:24 Their leader cards. Yeah, it's it's idiocracy too. Why why is that? I mean to me it's just the definition of confidence. Confidence The wrong version. Wrong definition is

11:36 I'm never wrong. Confidence is really I know that I'll get it wrong. I mean and and I can take strength. So what Deloney's saying of you m you be the first to model repair? I mean who who who can complain about that that goes, you know what, that person's doing it the right way. That person's a a true leader. So when you go and you start the conversation the wrong way.

11:59 continue to go the wrong way. Why why would you surgeon cutting and being like um wrong legs. Or you're going the wrong way down a highway. And it's yeah, well, I guess because I'm here, I just gotta keep going. It's the wrong direction, but we're making good time. Right, right, exactly. The goal is perfect. But if I were to stop and say, hey, you know what, just like Deloney said I'm not approaching this conversation how I want it to. Can I restart this? Nobody's gonna tell you no.

12:27 Nobody's gonna say, nope, sorry, I'm you gotta stick with this terrible approach right here. Please. I know I'm gonna get it wrong, I can still be confident in it, and I'm showing that emotional intelligence along the way. So it seems like a like a A killer a killer move on the job or at the office. Let's shift gears a little bit. You're

12:50 At the end of the day. You drive in the driveway. You had a long day. You're tired. What are some of the habits Um or thoughts that you're having. When you go through that back door of the house.

13:01 to not repeat Maybe the the difficult part of the day or have the hard conversations at home. Go better. In my house I've got kind of a ritual where I will call or text and say And I might think, cool, a break is

13:24 after dinner, after you re roof the house and after you repave the driveway, then you can do whatever you want, right? Um And she might be thinking the moment you walk in here, I'm outta here, right? So I always I always will text or call, Hey what's tonight look like? Make sure our pictures are aligned on it. And

13:39 In some cheesy way, because Um there is How Can I Love You Tonight. And I'm just gonna follow that lead. And then there's some days that I'll go to the gym straight from here. I'll call Jefferson and say, Hey let's go I haven't done this yet. He just moved here, but like hey, let's go hang out. Or um Yeah, he never calls me. There are times I sit in my driveway for ten minutes. Yeah. And I just finish the song I'm listening to. Like I remember Jacko talking about

14:07 Mike going from a military and he always kept Jim shorts and a T shirt and his flip flops in the car. I'm gonna change my clothes before I go in there because my kids are not my s are not my my infantrymen, right? So that's my job rolling into my house to show up. As the person they need not to bring all the stuff It's not helpful. Yeah. What do you do?

14:27 I use the phrase I can tell. Like I can tell that I'm really exhausted right now. I can tell that I'm tired. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting overwhelmed. Like if I can verbalize how I'm feeling when you claim it. In some sense you control it. And what it does is giving the other person that roadmap of where I'm at. I've also heard the advice of it's good to give a percentage. Like where's where's your battery at? You at fifty seven percent, are you

14:53 probably like John and never charges his phone and he's like on two percent off yeah yeah trying to find his phone. And it's like uh well where do you how how do you measure that? So it's it's good to also know What I think he brings up is when first thing he says a ritual that we have. What are the things that you can agree on in your own home? Like for us, we have checkouts. So that means after the kids are in bed. That's when we actually start to like hey. Good to see you. You live here too. Awesome. Yeah. Uh what's your name? Yeah. How was your day? And we actually get to have a conversation that's not interrupted a hundred times. But it's it's good to have that moment to be able to talk not only about how your work day was, but how are we doing. And never walk in the door and say I can tell.

15:31 About them. Yeah, exactly. I can tell you're tired. I can tell you're in a bad mood. I can tell you're not doing good, so you look like you had a rough day. Yeah, that's like digging a small fire and be like, here's some gas. Exactly. That didn't work well. Like you said earlier, killer thing for a leader to do is to say, I'm sorry. I was wrong. I need to do something else. My question is is how how do you as a leader live a life

15:57 Well there's one element of if we want to talk about language usage. Uh instead of the hey I'm so sorry, hey I'm sorry about I want you to turn the I'm sorry's into gratitude. Okay. I appreciate it. Uh

16:09 Patients there. Hey, I appreciate the lean lency. I I'm I'm grateful. uh for this chance to to talk about X, Y, N Z. And all of a sudden you're you're the person who's generous.

16:20 And with benefits of the doubt, you're the person who's confident and appreciating the people. So you have that element and spirit of gratitude rather than that hesitation of, oh I can't. Do anything. How often uh what kind of culture have you created for people to make mistakes. I read a I wrote a uh um I read a letter from my great grandfather who was a federal judge to his daughter at the time. This was back in the fifties and in it. He was writing her a letter and said.

16:47 You have to give the other person the right and the privilege of making a mistake. Same as you. And so when you understand that There is a culture of

16:58 And I get the right. It's not a I have to apologize and I have to You know, bleed myself all over the floor every time something goes wrong. It's like this is this is expected. Yeah. We're gonna have this. So when you go into it knowing that you're gonna make some mistakes rather than the ego of we never make mistakes, things are gonna go a lot better. Yeah. I think great leaders. I'm in this chair right now.

17:20 Because two brilliant extraordinary women At two different universities. Needed a mouthpiece. Both of them were were big time introverts and they didn't like speaking on stage.

17:33 But they know part of that job is The Kumbaya part and welcoming everybody and that was they it It it buried him. They were smarter than me, they knew the business better than me, they knew the legal stuff better than me.

17:46 But they needed that, and so instead of forcing it and creating a an atmosphere that students were like uncomfortable with. They hired this moron and said, say these things, right? And so I think good leaders know like budgets, I love them. The sales calls I can do'em, but I don't love it. If you find yourself saying, Oh, I messed that up a met

18:06 Then you may need to go hire somebody to fill the gaps that you're bringing as a leader. It's your business you get to hire. And some people are great at this part of it, some people are great at this part of it. Hire the parts that you're not great at and be gr grateful that you've got people that can fill those roles for you. And it shows a little more confidence too, of saying I know what I'm good at and what I'm not great at. Yeah. And this person is. Yeah. The the the me show. Yeah, it feels like it's something what you're saying is there's something very different

18:35 between the feeling of or the thought that like I'm not enough Versus This isn't my thing. Yeah. Or this isn't for me. Right. Right. I don't ha I don't have to be good at everything. And sometimes it's just a it's a matter of

18:49 Why? Because they need the reps. You know, uh the the first pancake is always the worst, right? Sometimes you have to like Get some reps in. And that means you have to let somebody else bat. And let them swing and miss and strike out several times before they're gonna be Hitting the Grand Slams. Yeah. I know that this is something that people struggle with, uh because we get in our own way.

19:19 And we've got our own we got our own issues that we're dealing with and so I really appreciate you. You guys. And You know, Jefferson, I've heard I've heard both of you speak, and you're you're both uh Brilliant in your own right.

19:33 I just You're always so calm and collected. And I just kinda wonder, like if I reach across right now and just like mess your hair up, like, you know, I know what Deloney will do. Yeah. You know, he would throw me to the ground and choke me out. But I'm just curious, like, how would you handle that? I'd probably grab your head and then knee No. You know, I I'm somebody who was taught uh words first. Usually so I have I have trust me, I have other aun aunts and uncles and cousins that are just bowl in a China closet. But uh my dad was very diplomatic. So I got taught with the

20:06 Socratic method. So when if you were gonna do something with me It's genetic It's gonna say what what tells you inside of that head that it's okay to touch my head. You know what I mean? So you won the you won the genetic lottery for staying calm. That and that alone. That's about it. Yeah. Exactly. I love it. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you for having us. Great leaders learn how to slow down. Reset.

20:31 And get their head straight. So they're not constantly taking out their stress on the people around them. If you enjoyed this conversation. Jefferson and Deloney. We'll both be speaking.

20:42 at our Entree Leadership Summit next year in San Diego, California. You don't want to miss this. Save your spot today by clicking the link in the description. And be sure to like, share, and subscribe. For more real world leadership content. I'm your host, Dave Ramsey, and this is Entree Leadership.