Uber CEO: At Uber, If You Don’t Perform, You’re Out! Uber Was Losing $3b A Year

0:00 You come to Uber, you're gonna work your ass off. And if you're not performing, we're gonna let you know. But do you ever worry that they might not be able to deal with the truth? Then they can leave because the most important skill in life is the skill of working hard. And when you see the top athletes, Ronaldo, Michael Jordan, of course they're talented. But the thing that's different about them is they work their asses off. And that's a learned skill. That's not something you're born with. You may be smarter, more talented, etc., but I'm not gonna let anyone outwardly. With that mentality, when you joined Uber was losing three billion per year, now it generates eight point five billion in free cash flow every year. But it seems that you were forged in such a way that you were gonna be relentless. Yeah, and it really started with being born in Iran. With the Islamic Revolution in nineteen seventy eight, we were not safe there. And I remember at one point we had these revolutionary guard come into the backyard and bullets went through our living room. So my family came to the US to rebuild their lives. You were eight nine years old? Yeah, and it really destroyed my dad. Sorry.

1:01 Mm-hmm. It's tough for me. Talk about it.

1:11 Let me try again. Seeing that has put me on a road where I just wanted to make my family proud. So I studied bioelectrical engineering, and then my first job was invest in banking, and I got to see the process of big companies being built. And then I had the opportunity to take over Expedia. And in your twelve years as CEO, Expedia sales increased from two point one billion to eight point eight billion. And you were the highest paid CEO of US tech company. And I left it all behind to go to Uber. And I wanna get into practical company building, how you would get that company to work hard and create a culture of continuous improvement and all that stuff. But there's an alien that's arrived amongst us, which is AI. Now driving I think is one of the biggest employees in the world, like as of profession. I mean we've got nine and a half million drivers and couriers on our platform. Those drivers' careers that you have will be out of work.

1:56 Being honest about the situation. What do the nine million people do? J me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.

2:21 And if you enjoy what we do here. Please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show. Thank you.

2:48 You lead. One of the most consequential, interesting, talked about companies of my generation. It's worth hundreds of billions of dollars last time I checked. And it's uh it's a company that I use every single day. Thank you. I've looked through your story. You were the CEO of Expedia. Mm-hmm.

3:08 At one point. You're currently the CEO of Uber and you've turned that company from a A a loss making company to a highly profitable company and one that has continued to be successful through such a great time of transition. I Your story starts in a very interesting way.

3:26 And I was, you know, when I start doing the research for guests sometimes, I I I think I come in with some kind of presumption that you like grew up in California, you went to Stanford, et cetera. But that is not the case. Can you take me to that earliest context so I can understand How and why you are the way that you are. Uh quite the quite the starting questions. But but but I'll try. I I think that for me

3:50 The Events that shaped My life And maybe a part of who I am really started with. My being born in Iran.

3:59 And Iran at the time was modernizing becoming a modern society. And my family built a pretty big industrial company that it That Everyone was quite proud of in Iran.

4:12 We lost all of that. with the revolution in nineteen seventy eight. And my family had to come to the US. Two Rebuild.

4:24 Their lives. You had to come to the US. We were not safe there. One of my uncles actually was um a cabinet member of the Shaws. who had just been toppled. And at one point we had uh

4:39 uh these revolutionary guards come into the backyard. They were actually going after our neighbor's house. Uh, and one of their guns went off and bullets went through our living room. uh shattered the glass in the living room and at that point my mom's like, We're not safe being here. So we had to Come to the US.

4:58 And I do think that event to some extent has shaped not just me, but my family. And that the rebuilding of our lives, um of our uh economic lives to some extent. We're we're all trying to rebuild what we lost in Iran. You look back on that and and can you identify any

5:18 sort of fingerprints that were left on you from that time that have defined you and Business capacity. I think at my core. I never feel safe. You know, when the the experience of losing everything and and for the kids, I I tell you.

5:32 It was fine for the kids. But seeing my parents lose everything, and and it really destroyed my dad. You know, it really His losing His value to the world as he saw it.

5:45 Um really hurt. His Inner being. And I do think to some extent seeing that

5:54 has put me on a road where I want to rebuild. I want to make my family proud. But at the same time I never that feeling of having the floor, you know, the rug pulled out. Of you of building everything.

6:08 That's a feeling that Never leaves you. I think I think Americans Underestimate What this place represents. in its ideals, right? Which is if you build something, it's yours. There's a rule of law, it can't be taken away from you.

6:23 That is not true for the majority of the population. Of the world. And so I think for me There's a drive to build And it's at the same time.

6:34 Never ever taking anything for granted. Never being satisfied. Because the minute you take things for granted, then that rug can be pulled out. From under you. On your father, there was a moment where he a couple of years, I think six years, where he got trapped in Iran and wasn't granted an exit visa. Yes.

6:51 And I imagine at that time your mother was raising you alone here in New York City. Yeah. In Terrytown, New York, forty five minutes north of New York City. But she she went from A life of never having to work. to she had to become salesperson to make some money.

7:06 And she did it all herself. And she really stepped up. So I think it shaped us, it was difficult in some ways. I I miss my dad. I remember when he left He was like a giant compared to me. And then when he came back, it was my sophomore year. At college.

7:23 And he still saw me as a kid. And so he wanted to drive me to uh to college and and he did. And then he's like, he wants to hang out. I'm like, Dad. Can you get out of here? I wanna hang out with my kids. I was ex uh with my friends. I was excited to go back to school. And it was just

7:38 It it was sad. seeing the change, you know, of A man who had gone older. Uh his time in Iran was really tough on him. He had a heart attack on the plane coming back. So he was a diminished person to some extent.

7:51 Um but It was great that I had many, many years with him. You know, since then. When he was away, when he was trapped around and wasn't able to exit. Your mother Lily.

8:02 Yes. Referenced how you didn't mention him. Much. But w when he returned, he broke down in tears. Okay.

8:22 Yeah, no, don't be. He was a Very stoic man. Okay. Sorry.

8:38 Mm-hmm. Passed away a couple of years ago, so it's tough for me to Talk about it. All right, let me try again. He was a very stoke man. Um

8:59 So he Captain. All inside. And we were taught to do the same thing. Uh but we wrote letters together and they're beautiful letters he wrote

9:11 poetry. So I communicated with them in Iran. But There's Um expression of feelings and kind of uh frustration. Uh

9:26 My family did. You know, you just dealt with the situation. And so, yeah, I I think I suffer from uh over stoicism and then breaking down every once in a while, as you just saw. It's a a a familiar story of them the men that I've interviewed that grew up with that kind of sort of emotional composure enforced and um modelled to them.

9:48 Yeah, I don't know if it was enforced. Like it wasn't implicit. Actually Yeah, like we were very loving family. But my father was very humble. Um, he did not believe that just because you're in a position of power, you should kinda project that power, you should communicate that to everyone. And there was a stoicism inside my family, which is Don't complain.

10:09 You know, um So they it was it was a weird combination of stoicism and love at the same time. How does um'cause I'm not a father yet. Yes. But I I'm approaching that. Congratulations. Almost. Yeah, almost. Yeah. I've just proposed to my fiancee and we're you know, we're in the process now of Mm.

10:27 You know, bringing children into the world, hopefully. And it's one of the things I think a lot about, which is how do I stop my own stocism? Passing on to my children. First of all fatherhood, parenthood is is so humbling.

10:43 You have such a picture in your mind as to how you're gonna raise your family, what your kids are gonna be like. And They just become their own people. And

10:54 It's such a beautiful process to see. And at first there's this Alarm. Oh my God, I'm losing control. You know, I've I've done everything, you've planned everything. This is how I'm gonna raise kids. But then real life gets in the way. It is absolutely exhausting.

11:08 So you probably execute on eighty percent of your plan and you're twenty percent imperfect'cause you are exhausted. And you're working and you got a career. Or often some people do. And at some point you see these kids

11:22 kind of move off into this completely Unexpected territory. And there's a point for me it was like I I'm a bit of a control freak. So I'm like, this is not good. They're kind of doing their own thing. But then you you step back and you're like this is it's absolutely gorgeous what's happening. So

11:39 The advice that I would just give in terms of being a parent is just Spend the time with the kids. You know, it is That is the magic is not what you do. Um

11:49 Or the particular tactics. But it's the investment in them and the time spent with them and the rest. You know, you can't control. But what you can control is kinda that connection. Mm.

12:00 I am speaking of children. I went back and looked through lots of different photos of where you lived and where you grew up to try and get a picture of your world in an early context. And all these photos look Incredibly incredibly I think it was your fifth birthday. Oh wow. I had hair back then. My mom loved to dress us up in like little doll outfits. I can tell.

12:24 Look at that. I'm definitely not gonna do that to my kids. Age four in London. Yeah. You and your cousins, yeah.

12:33 Family was everywhere for us. Again, another one with a ps a beautiful haircut there. It was a great childhood. It was amazing. I spoke to your mum.

12:44 I hope uh well how to go. She said, Um I'll play the audio file just so people can hear it. when he was very default. He told me that he wants to do something.

12:58 Important in the world. And he said Becoming wealthy is not its priority. Like making a change is I can't say I remember that conversation.

13:12 But the One of the My early experiences that really imprinted on me was we went to visit one of my dad's factories, family factories. My dad was in charge of designing factories, building them, operating them. And The respect

13:31 That That population the factory had for him and the visit and how excited they were that his family w was visiting was just really cool. And And the way that he treated he knew everyone's name.

13:43 He treated them with such respect. It just it really imprinted on me. There was this care. It wasn't The boss is coming and there's fear. And so for me like that

13:56 Ability to Build a life. where you have impact on a lot of people, but it's it's positive kind of building impact. You have the broad respect of of these folks, it really imprinted on me. So I w I always wanted

14:11 You know, when we came to the States Making money was important. I don't wanna kinda BS and say like oh I didn't care about it because We lost everything. And so my first job was like invest in banking. What's the goal of invest banking? Have fun.

14:25 But Make money. Right, and so that was a priority for me. But then as I matured in life, as I knew I had safety in terms of okay, yes, I know I can do that, I can make money, I can provide for my family, I can support my mom and dad.

14:41 Then building kind of an enterprise, having that feeling that I saw with my father, that connection with his team. Uh, was something that became really important to me. When you came to New York you were w eight, nine years old? Nine years old, yes. If I had asked you at nine years old when you arrived in New York what you wanted to do when you were older, what would you have said?

15:02 I have no idea. I want to make my dad proud. That was it. I wasn't kind of motivated for specific target at all. I just wanted to make my family proud. Why

15:15 I wanna make my dad proud. He's always been an important figure. Then uh in my life. You know, the there's this Um

15:24 And and and I think part of it is that I never got to know him that well. as an individual. You know,'cause he was obviously When I was younger, he was working all the time. So he would show up once in a while for dinner, et cetera. We always had family dinners together.

15:39 And then He went away. And then I work, so I never really got to know the person that he was. But I don't know, there there's kind of the sense of duty. There's there's a Hope that

15:53 You know, he's He's Somewhere or maybe he's not someplace. But That making my father proud has always been a strong current under current. In my life.

16:02 So you're nine years old, you've arrived in New York City. Um you do end up going off to college sometime later. Yes. that choice at that time and how determinant that was of your trajectory in your life, that decision to go to that university and study that subject. My father always said you can do anything in your life as long as either you're a doctor or an engineer.

16:26 And I picked engineering. I just loved the problem solving aspect of engineering and all the layers of equations, et cetera, and those equations being able to represent something in real life and then magically that's something in real life following what it should theoretically like the problem solving aspect of engineering fascinated me. I absolutely loved it.

16:48 Uh, and I think it serves me to this day. Engineers make good COs. Great Cs. If you step back. Companies are just machines, right? They're they're machines that are run by people.

17:00 And Over a period of time, you actually try to automate some of the stuff that the people do, and then you send the people off to do new stuff that can't be automated. Like We are rules based, like it's it's an organism and it's a machine at the same time. And To some extent the job of the the the CEO is

17:20 engineering how do I set up the company to achieve the goals that you know I set for shareholders set for it, my board sets sets for it. It's a giant engineering problem, and and to me that's like fascinating. The Putting together the pieces.

17:35 To get to what you perceive to be the goal. And one of the really important things is you gotta pick the right goals. Mm-hmm. Um, that is one giant problem solving engineering challenge and it's one of the most fascinating parts of my job. I wanna get into that.

17:50 the practical uh company building, how you organize um an organization to be a a well functioning machine, setting goals and all that stuff. Um after after college you Go into investment banking for a period of time. Yeah. Work there for eight years in risk arbitrage to begin with, and then mergers and acquisition advisory work as well. And that experience I I was reading taught you about betting on people. Yes. What do you mean by betting on people? And why is that important? It was uh it it was actually a lesson that I learned from

18:20 Herbert Allen who was running Allen and Company at the time. It w it was the the uh the Allen's uh family started the company. And He always told me and and I at the time I didn't really listen to him, he he always had Dora.

18:34 Always bet on people. Companies go there are good companies, bad companies, but great people stay great all the time. And one of the things that made Allen and company was really special. No, investment banking can be a dog eat talk sport. But

18:50 Allen and company really cultivated relationships. With People whom they perceive to be great. both in terms of potential and in terms of character. And of all the investment banks, that loyalty, that

19:04 Making a bet on a person and then staying with them through their whole careers. is a pattern. Of how that place works. Uh, and it's definitely something that that I learned there.

19:16 What is it about one's character that makes them qualify as a great person? You look for success. Honor, loyalty, people who Will tell you what they're gonna do. Whether it's good or bad, and then follow through on their promises.

19:29 Hard work, I'm surprised that that wasn't mentioned. Well, that comes with success. Okay, talent and hard work, you put it. Those two together. And where did you leave Alan and company? I left Allen because I met Barry Diller. Uh he was a client of mine. We got to meet And uh

19:45 Big kind of Mm. Deal, uh unfriendly, uh hostile tender offer. For Paramount at the time. It's Th there's another one happening, I guess, for Paramount, uh now as we speak.

19:58 And he was the one person I thought I was gonna be Alan Lifer. I thought I was gonna be there forever. My older brother Cave is an Alan Lifer. He is it's the only job he's had in his life. But Barry was the one person who I thought You know, if I get a chance to work for this person, I'm I'm I'm gonna jump at it. And I did. Why?

20:17 What Barry? He he's spectacular. I mean he was spectacular. He is spectacular. A doer, you know, he he I I met him in a circumstance where he lost. It was it was this giant hostile tender offer. Bids going back and forth between uh the the winner of icom and and Barry

20:36 Ultimately Barry stepped away. And we were planning uh an announcement. Yeah, and and you can imagine all these like fancy PR people How do we present a loss as a win, right? So he bid for a company, he didn't get it. He didn't get it and and he walked away.

20:54 He didn't get it'cause he walked away, which in hindsight was a was a mistake. He could have paid more. Uh, and then in the release where he walked away, uh, I think the release was They won, we lost. Next. And

21:07 He was a constant motion machine, like They won, we lost next. What's next? Let's go. And that's the kind of person I wanted to work for. In business, losing is part of the game. Absolutely.

21:20 Absolutely. But but then calling it out. You know, not bullshitting. Not like oh we tried our best in the circumstances. They won, we lost next. It's okay.

21:32 Does it matter how you lose? Absolutely it does. They absolutely it does. It it's And and I find companies Guilty of two things. Like one is

21:41 ignoring losses, like papering over losses, et cetera, right? And then sometimes being obsessive about the loss. You know, inspecting it, what happened, let's do a summary, let's meet what went wrong, et cetera. And and you know, for me it's somewhere in the middle.

21:59 Which is Recognize why you lost. Recognize that you lost. Say it because it's important to say it. Analyze it. But then move on.

22:08 Mike. Let's move on. And the next time You hope to Have learned some kind of judgment to avoid that kind of a loss, but it doesn't mean you're gonna avoid losing at all. Like if you're not taking shots

22:22 You're not missing, you're you're not losing. So for me it's Constantly moving and taking your shots. Losing, learning, next. Losing learning next. That constant motion is what I want to see. Um that constant motion and learning is

22:37 What excites me? This is business advice, but also life advice generally, because a lot of people um who I meet who come up to me and ask me questions about things often ask questions that sound a lot like what you just said. It's dealing with rejection, dealing with taking an L and how that L then stays with them sometimes for a decade. Sometimes for fifteen years and be and holds them back. Hur their confidence, means that they don't take it any more shots.

23:00 And this can cause a a sort of a downward confidence. Spiral. And and listen, I'm I'm talking a big game. But I would tell you In my personal life.

23:09 I can't deal with rejection. I have a really hard time dealing with the rejection. Professional life. No problem whatsoever. So it's like in the end we're all humans. You have a Very much.

23:21 What kind of rejection? Any kind of rejection conflict, like it's it's something that has been uh that I fought my whole life, which is Because I was one of the younger cousins. Because I was the youngest brother.

23:35 I just kinda didn't have rights. So I was I went with the flow. And going with a flow means you're going with a current, et cetera. I didn't cause trouble. And that has followed me in my personal life, in my professional life. I don't have as much trouble there. I guess my professional life to some extent is a mask.

23:56 Because I get to be aggressive. I get to lose, et cetera. It's something that Sid my wife has really helped me wash. But it is something

24:05 In my personal life that generally I'm conflict avoidant. You conflict avoidant in your personal life. Interesting. Yeah. Definitely. Mm. That's not good in a relationship. No. No. That's why that's why it's helping me out. I'm much better now. I'm much better. But it's It's when I

24:22 Take those issues on. I have to fight myself. there's some core, you know, with if if you and I were having an issue and I was sitting down with you and saying, Hey, I'm not I'm not happy about X or Y I can Feel there's a quormy saying.

24:37 Just let it go. But that's our resentment. Build. And that's our relationships. Um Over a long period of time.

24:45 start moving the wrong way. So it is something that is at my core. But I actively fight. Uh, and I'm getting better at it, but I'm still on a learning journey there, I'll tell you that. Eventually you go. On to becoming the CEO of Expedia?

24:58 After um Mm. There was a couple of COs that came before you, but you you became the third and Took that company on. Very different job going from investment banking to being a CEO. Yeah. Yeah. Now it there there was a journey there because

25:10 I went from banking. To running deals. And I knew that I knew that I I liked how companies worked. The thing that I liked about investment banking was that I got to see a lot. There I got s really smart people. Really cool companies.

25:27 Build. But I couldn't go along with that journey. I was jealous of the journey that these CEOs were were moving on. So then when M and A was a bridge to work at a company and build uh the company.

25:41 I move from MA to CFO, chief financial officer. Because that's a That's that's to some extent. Finance, but it's also being the CO's partner and helping the CO build.

25:52 So I I always knew the direction that I want to go in, which is hey, at some point I wanna Actually be an operator. And then I had the opportunity to take over Expedia, the CO of the time, Eric Blashford, kinda said, Yeah, big company thing, not for me. So he resigned. And

26:09 Honestly, I Barry didn't have an alternative. I was the owner. Barry was the CO And chairman of IAC Which was a parent company. of what became expedia, I C travel.

26:22 The head of I C travel. Resigned. I Raise my hand, I said maybe I could do it. Barry was desperate. He had no one else.

26:30 So he promoted me to be CO of IAC travel. And I see travel is going through some difficult times, so We spun it off as a at Expedia, so that's when I became the CEO of Expedia the public company, and I

26:43 move to the Netherlands of s of uh Seattle. W in your job just before you took on that role as CEO, You were buying businesses. So M and A's, mergers and acquisitions. You were buying companies. Yes. What are some of the companies that you bought? Oh, we bought a lot of companies. Uh we bought Ticketmaster, uh we bought dot com.

27:01 Uh about Expedia Hotels dot com and and it was all about the theme that Barry and I were uh fascinated with was the movement of commerce online, you know, it was it was during that uh time. It was the late late nineties, early two thousand And and we saw it happening with our very own eyes, really with

27:22 home shopping, right? It was It's a flat screen, it was a television, and you were offering products and people were calling up buying those products electronically. And just the medium change, a medium change from a TV screen

27:36 to an internet screen and instead of calling you could use a H D P Uh and so while the medium change We kinda saw this opportunity. to take advantage of the of the change of platform. So Match.com essentially in the olden days.

27:53 You know, you had online dating But you would call a number and you'd be like, My name is Dara, and I'm six foot two. And this is you describe yourself. And you hear other kind of uh recordings and you would get matched up based on someone who seem nice. And all of that just moved online. That was what Bad Shotcom was. Same thing with Ticketmaster, you know, in the olden days you would

28:15 Go to a Tower of Records. Have you ever been to a Tower Records? Yeah, so there are these things called record stores. And They also had a desk where they would sell concert tickets. So you would either call for a concert ticket or Or you would physically go and buy one. Amazing. And there are lines, tower record lines. And all of that exactly.

28:35 Moved online. And same thing with travel, right? You would call a travel agent And so all of there was this movement of retail and phone commerce to online commerce. And We identified

28:48 the early players to make that shift. And personals, ticketing, travel. were the ones that we went with the went for Amazon was doing everything else, like physical fulfillment.

29:01 So what we were going for were essentially electronic transactions that did not require physical f fulfillment. And that was travel. Because You know?

29:12 It's a virtual good. Ticketing. uh match dot com which which was personal. So there was a pattern around the madness, so to speak. But we went out and bought all these companies. It was a really great time. I've got two questions that emerge that one one is Again, I'm really interested to understand how you would look for talent or how what

29:28 how you think about what a great company is. Are there like we we looking at the company culture, we looking at the founders, was there something else, was it the profitability? And the other one is just uh really intrigued as to What this period of your life and thereafter taught you about how to sp But opportunity and transition. 'Cause that is a transitional moment of technology. And

29:49 I think there is a certain pattern recognition one can develop as to like know what to bet on. In these moments of transition where there's huge skepticism. The internet's gonna not be anything. It's a so two questions there. One is like how do you spot great companies? And then the second is like patterns in transition. So they're uh I'd say they're they're related, which is um we would spot great companies. just by observing who was taking the lead in these transitions. You know, these transitions are difficult. You can't predict exactly Where things are going, how quickly they're going, how much should you invest, what's a return, what uh what the what the market

30:21 How large is the market going to be? But There were companies that were emerging as the leaders. And we would just I just Identify the leaders and call call these folks up and say, I want to come in and talk to you.

30:33 But that was that was it. And to some extent. It's a self reinforcing Cycle which is Yes, the great management teams and the great founders

30:44 were the ones who were able to identify the opportunity and hit that opportunity faster than anyone else, recognize that opportunity and execute on that opportunity faster than anyone else. So To some extent the companies who were in the lead Of course had the best management teams and had the best founding teams. And when those two things matched. That was when we jumped.

31:05 And then the the last thing I would tell you in terms of these pattern uh recognitions is that We never completed a successful deal because we got the company cheap. We actually overpaid For every single great company.

31:23 That we bought. But we overpaid based on what the market thought at the time. Not what the reality turned out to be. So I do think one of the

31:32 kind of pieces of pattern recognition with me is just Humans. Think about Success. And

31:41 transitions in a linear way because time is linear. Which some of it doesn't just they think of it going like this. Everything kind of moves this way, right? Uh your your schedule is relatively linear. Right. It's You sleep seven hours a day, like oh your life is a linear life.

31:59 But company and company success and company momentum, especially with new technologies where If there's a technology that's truly better than the other technology within the virtual world is absolutely no friction holding it back. the the these companies move in an exponential way in terms of their growth.

32:18 And ultimately in terms of their value. So Whereas most people kinda see things they they when they project out to the What actually happens is this. And that's where the opportunity is. It's the it's the

32:33 Spread between the hockey stick and kind of the straight line. Mm-hmm. Uh and it's very difficult for people to process that. And so that was You know. Those were the companies that we identified that hockey stick then.

32:45 Online travel was a hockey stick. Personals was a hockey stick, ticketing was a hockey stick. I heard about the J is it Jevons paradox? Yes. Which I think kind of sort of

32:56 Overlaps with what you're saying there. When things become easier, faster, cheaper, people do them Not incrementally more, but Ex like exceptionally more often. I mean that that's the definition of Uber, and we can get to that at some point. was uh originally it was built as a Black cab service, so to speak. A black car service. Can you tell me that's uh that where it came from'cause a lot of pe history has now moved forward. People have forgotten the story of how it came to be. Now to some extent it was it well, to a large extent it was that the founding was was before me, but it was um

33:26 Uh Gare Camp. who was one of the founders had this idea Uh, and I think it was born in Paris. It was like a snowy day in Paris and they couldn't find a black car. And it was Bunch of yum.

33:37 young tech guys like how cool would it be to like Pick up my phone and Call a black car. And that was the the core idea, which is Hey, you can use your phone to call a black car.

33:48 he brought on uh Travis Kalnik. Travis was the operator and and the founder. And To your pawn on Jevin's Paradox to some extent. People thought well What's the size of the black car market?

34:01 And it was a couple billion dollars. Or what's the size of the taxi industry? And it was Uh More than a couple of billion dollars. But what they didn't see at the time was that as you

34:12 Improve. the conv if you radically make something either more convenient Or Cheaper. The market

34:20 Expands beyond you calculate it. So the Uber size and scale now is way beyond the original marketplace of Black cars and or taxis. It it's the company the company today is a result of Jeffins. Paradox.

34:35 Timing. We often, um we often don't think much about the luck of timing. Luck is an interesting word to use, but how important timing is and other sort of foundational factors are in enabling a company like Uber to exist. When you think about The timing of Uber. What are the sort of The foundations that made it possible. Well, it was it was a mobile revolution. It was um mobile data technology, the iPhone coming together.

35:01 In the early days. One of the geniuses of Trav of Travis was He would hire these market managers who would be GMs of new cities that they would expand into. And they would literally Go to the city with a bag full of iphones.

35:16 And give away iPhones to black car drivers. to get them to come on Uber because at the time A lot of them didn't have, you know, they they didn't have smartphones, so to speak. So the onset of the of the smartphone. was

35:30 That kind of that beautiful magic of timing coming together. And then aggressiveness of that founding team. to understand that there's a pattern here and I'm going to Replicate that pattern all the world.

35:42 And raise as much capital I as I have to to get there faster than anyone else. That was the magic. But it was you know, again it's Yes, there's luck in there, but if that founding team hadn't been as aggressive. And you know, blitz scaling, which is a term that folks used uh all around the world. Company wouldn't be what it is today.

36:03 Your transition out of investment banking into Expedia, CFO, then CEO. You know. Listen, there's a stereotype in business that um Investment bankers and CFOs don't necessarily make the best CEOs because of They might

36:17 Stereotypically. Over financialise. Over financialise. Maybe be less risk averse, maybe be less you know, those kinds of things. And when I spoke to Barry. He did say The following. I'll just play it for you because it's uh Better coming from him. You would drop it back to the laser.

36:34 Because he had. Uh in clear up until then. And And then on the financial side of things. So he really had not

36:44 Yeah, at the experience opportunity to manage people. S Okay. In a difficult way to him.

36:52 And he mastered it. It didn't take him all that long. He mastered how to become a leader and he mastered how to take Ultimate responsibility for a company. Yeah, it was um Growing up under Barry was was and and by the way, I I wouldn't be where I am today without not him as a mentor,'cause he's not like a mentoring kind of

37:12 him as my leader l learning from him. But I say that the experience that really, really shaped me. Uh as it relates to expedia was I did come in as more of a financial leader. Our

37:25 Leadership at expedia dot com failed. I hired a I had to fire the first uh person I hired a second person. Complete disaster. And so I was over two in terms of

37:37 hiring for our largest business. This business was fifty percent of our profits. And I was over two in uh in hiring. And so I went to Barry and the border and I said, Well If I miss hiring the third person to run the biggest parts of our business, then you should fire me. Barry quickly agreed. Yes, of course we will.

37:56 So I said obviously I don't understand enough about the job. to find the right person. So I think I've got to take the job myself. For six months to a year to understand what what is it that the job entails

38:10 For me to then go in? And find that person. And so For What turned out to be I think it was

38:17 I ran both the holding company, Expedi Inc, which is a public company And I ran expedio.com. I was president of the largest part of the company. That experience taught me my operating chops. That experience actually taught me

38:32 How is it that you operate a company? How is it that you run something? And that's a very different skill set from capital allocation and you know all the financial uh wizardry that people embark on that's important. But the what I discovered was operating a company, leading a company, organizing it, operating it, setting up the goals.

38:54 getting the right team together. That's the part of the job that I loved. So it it it took me a while to get there. Like my whole life, my whole early career was in this financial sector. Which I enjoyed. But

39:09 I didn't find my true love. Which is operations and running companies and running a technology company. Until way, way later in my career. Uh and I think to some extent now I've got both. I've got that financial part'cause it has to work.

39:25 But the operations and the leadership part of the business is something that that I love and And watching Barry Take responsibility, take shots. Go against the grain. Um as aggressively as he consistently did.

39:41 I think has made me a much better operator than what the counterfactual would be if I had another boss. Three months into that role the head of HR told you that you were scaring people. I've forgotten about that. I think that was my job. Yeah.

39:58 What's the context then? You know, the context was that First of all, turnarounds in technology are really hard. Uh we were talking about the momentum thing when momentum is po is positive. In the technology sector

40:13 If momentum turns negative. It is remarkably difficult to turn it around, you know? Yahoo is Hanging on. But it was the the great company and you see where it is now.

40:27 It's brutal. when you get it wrong. And It always takes longer than you think. And it goes to, you know, when I was talking about linear versus exponential.

40:37 Just like the curves up are exponential, curves down are exponential as well. The first couple of years Look bad. But they're not that bad. But You know in your mind that ten years from now it's gonna be it.

40:50 Fucking disaster. Mm-hmm. So what I saw with Expedia was a technology company Whose technology engine was broken. Code base was old.

41:02 had not been reinvested in. Technology leadership was coasting. And That really alarmed me. And one of the things that I learned from Barry

41:13 In terms of leadership is that when you know a bell is rung when when you when you see something when you see a pattern You have to act. You can't wait for a second. So in my mind, once I figure it out

41:28 Oh my God, this really is a turnaround. This isn't like a company that I've got a tune. This company, if I don't move And move Hard and fast. Is is gonna start on that exponential decay curve.

41:41 I had to move quickly and at that point and and I am w one of the skills that I learned from Barry is transparency. It it's like Whenever he wanted to understand an issue, he wanted to go to the source. He didn't want a summary. And it didn't matter where that source was. Is it a junior analyst or

42:00 A president. he wanted to hear from the source because What he didn't want to lose is lose the fidelity. You know, when there's an issue here and then it goes through

42:11 The analyst and the associate and the vice president and an S V P and whatever. By the time it's summarized for you as the CEO. It's just it's lost everything. And usually their levels are like Hey, do we really want to tell'em that? Why don't we phrase it this way, et cetera?

42:26 So your whole life as a CEO It's kind of a It's a version of the world that your team wants you to see. And if you got a good team. Usually it has

42:40 More to do with reality than not. But you are subject to your team. And the information flow that that gets to you. And so Barry always wanted to go the source. He would just cut through levels, cut through levels. Get to

42:53 The core of the ID. And then once he did He would move and he would move fast. And For me

43:02 I've kind of I have Held on to that. But I've also turned it the other way, which is One of the ways in which I can depend on getting the real shit from you. is my being honest with you.

43:15 Right. Human beings are good. bullshit, you know, kinda kinda meter, so so to speak. And and When you're the CEO and you're talking to your staff. And you're giving all the, you know, the business talk and we're doing this, but the last quarter we had some certain challenges and this and that.

43:35 They see you bullshitting them. And so why the hell should they tell you the truth? Right? If they're if their boss isn't telling them the good stuff. Why should they give the good stuff back to the boss? So for me

43:47 It it was almost like a self defense mechanism that as a boss, I'm gonna tell you what's going on. Because that's the only way I can drag The hard truths back from you. 'Cause otherwise you're gonna filter yourself. You're gonna be like, I don't want the order. No. This happened.

44:02 But do you ever worry that they might not be able to deal with the truth? And they can leave. And and I think that that's so I think that's what my head of HR was saying. I was scaring the shit out of people because I'm like, We have a real problem here and we've got to come together. And and I think that That you know, I th there's a

44:21 Uh I was a good decision making framework for me is um If I make a mistake, where do I want to make the mistake at? Right. And so If I want to

44:32 If I'm gonna err with my company, I'm gonna err in telling the truth. And potentially scaring someone away. I'll take that. Because if that person doesn't want to face the truth. If he or she's not up for the fight.

44:45 then they should go someplace else. They can have a good time, I'm sure they can have a good career, et cetera. So for me as a leader, I've always, always believed in transparency. Partially'cause then I think you attract the right people. Mm-hmm. And Uh partially because then

45:00 I'm gonna get the good information so to act on. Usually The failures I see with CEOs aren't because they made the wrong decisions, it's because they were getting the wrong data that led to the wrong decisions. So it's incredibly important as a leader of any organization

45:17 For you to build the channels and build the kind of culture that surfaces problems to you quickly. And then for me too. You always have to have your random direct channels. You know, the the Again, if you

45:31 Think about organizations as Organisms. They have their own incentives. And so My staff's incentive is to control the

45:41 The the information that gets to me. Not because they're bad people, it's just their job because I can get overwhelmed. Who do I meet with? What's my schedule? You know, is this person worthy of meeting the CEO? And for me, my fight is I just set up a bunch of random shit. I'll meet with, you know, engineers four levels down consistently.

46:00 'Cause usually they've got the kind of personality where they don't give a shit. They'll tell me anything and everything and they like Putting the CO down. That's great. It's you know, engineers often, you know, don't like authority and Code is like the biggest

46:16 Authority Buster is like the truth truth. Uh, so I find a lot of engineers have a personality which is, yeah, I'm gonna tell you what it's like. Like I'm you know, they They they Their value is in something else. But often they don't there's a kind of a disrespect for authority that I love.

46:31 I've found in my companies that there's sometimes like a twenty four year old Young girl who will just tell me the truth. Yeah. And She's the one you want to hang out with. She's the one I always go and ask for an opinion. Absolutely. And so that that's you've got to have your your own channels. But the way to the way to get transparency from your team is first first.

46:51 You've got to give it to them. Was the culture hard working when you arrived? Because you used the word coasting to describe some of the team when you arrive at Expedia. Medium. I think the the company had been successful for a long time and uh had coasted on that success to some extent. So I needed to turn over the team.

47:08 Turn over like the entire team very, very quickly to get some hungry people in there. The entire team. Almost the entire team, yeah, yeah. It was uh it was rough going for a while. But then you have kinda mission oriented people who are trying to prove themselves. Um, and it's part of the renewal that every company has to go through.

47:25 And we turned it around. It was it was tough going, but we really turned around and that was when I kinda I learn, hey my my love is Running ship. Great. It's the best part of my job.

47:35 How did you get that company to work hard? Because there's so many people listening right now that are in a company that might have been successful posting, might be two decades in. And This is an ultimate question in like executive management. How do you turn around the culture of a big Or even even of even two hundred people.

47:51 It's very difficult. Um, and sometimes the shortcut is just change the people. Like it's very easy to say, Oh, you have values this and that. So it's Yeah, it's Finding the people

48:03 Who you believe will line up with your cultural mechanisms or how you work or your values. And then embodying those values and those mechanisms. as examples and then making sure that your team embodies those values and imbues down the down the organization. So

48:22 Harder working hard is like You know, sending emails to the team on a Saturday and if I don't get a response on Saturday, sending them an email on Sunday with a question mark. Gone up. You know, I think at Expedia in hindsight. We we worked intensely and and and we went hard.

48:39 But but not as hard as I like. Because Speedia was. We were selling vacations. Right. It was it was the

48:46 the product that we were selling Was about turning yourself off. And so we did talk about work life balance. Uh and in hindsight Bad Uber?

48:58 I don't. You know, you come to Uber. You're gonna work your ass off. We're gonna be really demanding. If you're not

49:06 Performing. We're going to let you know. And if you don't fix it, we're gonna push you out. But While it will be incredibly hard.

49:17 you will have real agency of the company word by company, but individuals can make a big difference. And it's a company that's making a difference in the world. You're gonna learn so much. And while you will have worked hard, you're gonna have a great time. But this is don't come here if you want to coast. And I'm very clear about that.

49:36 And I should have been more clear at Expedia, but we were selling vacations, so I couldn't be quite that clear. New Year always has a strange energy to it because people start talking about their goals, fresh starts, and new habits, but the reality is that most people carry the same ideas they had last year into the new year. I'm guilty of that too. And they still don't end up doing anything with them. And I get why. Starting something new, especially if it's a business or a project, is overwhelming. Before you start, you're looking for the perfect moment and to be the perfect version of yourself. When really what matters most is taking that first step. If you had an idea for a while, a product A store, something you've been sitting on, our sponsor Shopify makes it easy to get started because you can build your store, sell on socials, take payments, use AI tools, and manage everything all in one place. So if twenty twenty six is the year you finally back yourself, go to shopify.co.uk. slash Bartlett and start selling and you can sign up for a one dollar per month trial.

50:33 right now too. Just go to shopify.co dot uk slash but I promise you. You don't need to have it all figured out. You just need to start. In your twelve years as CEO, Expedia stock rose five hundred and fifty percent.

50:49 And sales increased. four hundred percent from two point one billion to eight point eight billion. And you were the highest paid CEO of a US tech company with a pay of the Ninety four point one million. I left it all behind to go to Uber. It was the big options package and I never vest it, but it's all good.

51:07 It was a great run. I'm so I'm so intrigued about this point of hard work because I think ten years ago, saying what you just said was very taboo. Yes. It feels to me more than We're freed now, yes. Yes. Yes indeed.

51:23 I've I've gotten um You know, sometimes people ask you the question, uh What advice would you give to young people? And To me, the most important skill in life is a skill of working hard.

51:36 And it's not a skill. You you can't just like decide you're gonna do it. And I think way too many many people, you know, focus on should be a should should you be a computer programmer or doctor or study the liberal arts now that anyone can vibe code. Just learn to work hard. And it is, y you know, the the when you see the top athletes Of course they're talented, and th the you know, their town level is were levels.

52:03 But the thing that changes that that's different about the elite athletes. than the non elite athletes. And I'm talking elite. Is they Work there. Asses off.

52:13 They're disciplined, they're structured. They're relentless. You know, look at Ronaldo, look at Michael Jordan, etcetera. That's the same thing is true in all of life. It's true in business, it's true in personal life. And so for me

52:27 Well w with my kids. I just want to teach them how to work hard. And and for me, like growing up. I as a banker As an executive I'm not gonna let anyone outwork me.

52:39 And if that's true Then they may be smarter, more talented, et cetera. But I'm not gonna let anyone outwork me. And I think that that's a huge advantage that you have in over a period of time, that advantage compounds. And I want that in our company. Like I want Uber to be an incredibly hardworking company. Comes at a cost though, no?

52:57 Working hard. Yes. It comes at a trade off and and we We believe in flexibility. So people confuse kind of lack of flexibility to working hard. You can work hard.

53:08 And at the same time you can have flexibility. So If you want to have dinner with your family and I'm I'm religious about having dinners with my family when I'm in town. You know, six to eight. Uh absolutely spend that time with my family, but at You know, nine thirty PM I'm checking emails.

53:22 Right. When I wake up at five thirty and a AM I'm I'm checking email. So of course there are trade offs. And you know, life is about trade offs. I think one of the most important things I've learned from interviewing CEOs and generally we've gone through a transition of COVID and remote work and then come back into like everyone's in the office again. is actually the most important thing is what you've just said, which is being honest with people so that they can make decisions for themselves in their lives. I think the the thing that one might describe as toxic is when you say something Publicly.

53:50 But then when they arrive, it's a completely different deal. But what you're doing is you're being honest. And you're therefore allowing people to make decisions for themselves for in their own lives. And I'm allowing them to be honest back to me. Yeah. And you're a c that's a cum that's a company culture that someone like me would be attracted to. Absolutely. But there's lots of people listening that couldn't think of anything worse. And that's okay. Yes. Yeah. There are plenty of companies that they could find.

54:09 Or plenty of causes that they can find is fine. You said Learn hard. Learn. It's a it's a skill. Really? Yes, of course it is. Because you because you you've got to the idea of just

54:22 Staying focused on something, not being discouraged by failing, trying over and over again And just working harder than others. It it's not something you can turn on and off. I see it in people all the time. There's just like this Grim determination. Like we uh At Uber th there's actually saying it's it's it's inside one of her values.

54:42 Embrace the grind. You know, embrace it. That's You you that's a learned skill. That's not something you're born with. May maybe there's an element that you're born with. Have you ever seen someone who isn't a hard worker? Become a really hard worker.

54:56 An exceptionally hard work out. No doesn't occur to me, have you? No, I I had a s I think it might have been a Maybe Brian Chesket Airbnb or Elon say that he's never seen someone who wasn't a hard worker.

55:12 Become a really hard worker. That's interesting. And this is why I'm going to be able to do it. Failing so far. And maybe I might posit that it's somewhat to do with You know.

55:24 These photos that you have in front of you. your childhood, your early context, which You didn't shoot. But that you were forged in such a way that you were gonna be Ress. So relentless is the way I meant. Yeah, I I mean ruthless to myself.

55:39 Mm-hmm. Relentless. Relentless is right. You know, I I think I think at one point uh Jeff Bezos was gonna call Amazon Relentless. That was uh he was thinking about that being the name of the company. Right, it's it's just and and that is

55:52 When when I see successful technology companies and especially technology companies, there is this relentless About them. We have lots of different groups that are trying to do different things. But each and every team Is

56:07 built and targeted. on optimizing and improving their own particular function. There isn't a piece of the company that is not improving Every single day. And if they're not improving fast enough. Someone else is gonna take their place and gonna improve it. So as a as an organism.

56:25 Every part of the company, whether it's a payments team. In terms of new payments types or uh payment success or the fraud team or the mobile app team in terms of conversions, cetera. Every team is set up. in and organized for and gold.

56:42 on improving everything that they do. So the whole company in small ways. is constantly improving. Never ever stopping. And it is that

56:51 Relentless nature of business. And and the minute and it's not good enough to get. Better. We have to get better faster than our competitors. 'Cause their competitors are all getting better as well.

57:01 So it's it's basically like Who can adapt faster to either the Or the Prediction of the market as you see it tomorrow.

57:12 And it's the speed of change and it's identification of the opportunity. Those are the two factors. I think that are most important. Um, and the speed change, you know, if you can work fast, you're kind of accelerating time. You know, every

57:27 One shot that you take, I can take two shots. I've got more time than you do. And then of course there's identifying the opportunity and going after it. Those are the two things you really have to get right. If you're taking two shots, not only are you gonna get Two data points of information, but you're also increasing your probability of having a successful shot by Shots on goal.

57:45 Just shots on call. How do you create a culture of continuous improvement? Because successful companies, as you kind of highlighted earlier, they become complacent with their victories and they like to take some time off and celebrate and You know, we high five and then and then we chill. And then actually the studies show they did this big meta analysis where they looked at successful companies and they showed that they become risk adverse because they're the loss aversion, they have something to lose now. So just protect.

58:10 I think the good news to some extent with Uber is that we've always been a company that has had a chip on his shoulder. You know, it it the company had a chip on a shoulder when it was founded and had to like fight taxi unions for its very Existence. Uh, and then the disaster happened with Travis leaving and then a new CEO coming in at the time. That was a really, really difficult time.

58:32 Then we went through a period of COVID, which was again a disaster for the company, but ultimately prepared us to to do better. Then people saying, you know, it was a tough IPO. Uh Uber's never gonna get profitable and today we're incredibly successful, but We've got the challenge and the opportunity of AI and autonomous so

58:50 We've always been a company that has been, I would say, underestimated. And That feeds into her culture. That this is a we are a hungry company and I do think we're sometimes Guilty of getting complacent in little ways.

59:08 And I have a leadership team that when they see complacency more often than not than not They identify it and they get it the hell out. It's it's a team that is Not satisfied. That's always driving. And I love that about us. How does one balance

59:25 Enjoying. The success and the accomplishments. I mean, you've turned this company around a highly profitable company. Everyone that I've spoken to, many of our mutual friends. have talked lovingly about the impact you've had on the business. I mean the numbers speak for themselves. When you joined Uber, Uber was losing 2.5 to 3 billion per year. Now it generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow every year. How do you get people to nine point eight in the last year, but there's no counting. Nine point eight. Okay, incredible.

59:55 Yeah. Celebrate. Two. She's a Well You could you can celebrate a nutshell. I can do we we take those moments. We do sell it it's it's cool to run a company that's so important. It's cool to run a company that's hitting record after record after record.

1:00:10 And we do celebrate those records and we do celebrate those teams, maybe not enough. And again, it goes to like What what What mistake would you rather make? I'd make I'd rather make the mistake of celebrating a little bit too little. and kinda being a little pissed off. about life in general and pushing.

1:00:27 But um We we take our moments, but the the the success itself I don't know, succeeding is almost a celebration in and of itself. And and when you're succeeding In such a competitive field. I just find a deep sense of satisfaction there.

1:00:41 Uh, and I think my team does too. How do you get the team to take a Take those risks that they need to take. Is there something you'd do you like incentivise them on the amount of shots they take? How do you do that? One is they're always moving fast.

1:00:54 That's what we do. We push, we're constantly pushing the pace of the company in terms of execution. So I think that helps. But but I do think that there's there's a mechanism that we talked now about that I've talked to the team about taking smart risks. I think you're absolutely right, which is As companies get bigger and more successful,

1:01:11 they tend to become more risk averse. And it should be the exact opposite because you can take more risks, you can make more mistakes. Because you've got kind of this nine point eight billion of cash flow to protect yourself against some of those mistakes. So I have Definitely in the past, I would say, two years.

1:01:29 push the team actively to push the envelope in terms of risk. Don't be defensive, be offensive, et cetera. And it comes from Am I challenging the teams? Am I talking about it? setting examples of sometimes failing and then saying it's okay, moving on. Uh and then

1:01:46 Sometimes my taking decisions that are seen as more risky than not. That setting the example, then Allows the company to fall. So i if I was in one of your teams, what How how do you think about goal setting for me?

1:01:59 Um it all the teams have different goals, business goals. The ads team has to drive Ad uh technology driven incremental add uh dollars per year And or customer satisfaction, uh, customer MPS, et cetera. So every team has its own goals. Uh and

1:02:18 They organized against those goals and they execute those those goals and they're religiously tracked. It's a best mechanism that we have. I just wish that there was a better one because the art of the goal setting becomes the issue. Which is are you setting the right goals?

1:02:32 Are they too ambitious? Are they not ambitious enough? And Sometimes people can gain the system. So we use it. But I can't tell you that it's perfect.

1:02:42 What about uh you talked earlier about values. A lot of companies go and do an off site and they write some words on a words on a white and a wall and they say ambition, enthusiasm, courage, whatever. What do you think of that? Sort of corporate habit. Of cult values and stuff. We went through the exercise.

1:02:57 Yeah. Fail the first time. succeeded the second time. We and and when it And we failed.

1:03:05 When it first came to Uber. Obviously there was a view that there we needed a cultural reset of the company. And So it was very important for me to go and inspect the culture of the company.

1:03:17 And Change it. It was a statement. And the culture had I think some cool stuff in there, some cool ideas in there. Like for for example, there was one value that was um

1:03:28 Toe stepping. And the idea of toe stepping is is what you and I talked about earlier, which is We want to challenge each other within the organization. And so if I have to step on your toes and tell you something that you don't What to hear?

1:03:42 I'm allowed to even though hurts you. Uh because the truth is more important. So sometimes the truth hurts. And that's okay. That was the idea of toe stepping. And what happened was sometimes those values became weaponized.

1:03:57 Were toe stepping whose spirit came from a place of We want to speak the truth. became an excuse to be a jerk. Mm. Right.

1:04:06 The values in and of themselves can be great. Or Terrible based on how you execute on on those values. When I first came in

1:04:18 We have to redo the values. And I was there there's a saying by um Jeff Bezos that that I love, which is like the the the values of the company almost they they they appear. The value system of the company appears to some extent. You don't If you say thou shalt, you're gonna fail. Because the company show.

1:04:34 Right. And The approach that we first took was that We will actually get the value system. We had we had a vote for all the employees in the company, what values do you think should be part of the new Uber, et cetera.

1:04:48 We took all the signal and then we edited it. And came up with a new list of of values. And there is one value. That I wrote myself.

1:04:58 It was mine. And it was Do the right thing. Period. It wasn't crowdsourced, it was just that. And

1:05:06 And usually with these values you're like there's a whole explanation and people are like Well what does do the right thing period mean? Okay. You have to figure it out. And for me, it was a message.

1:05:18 To the whole company. Which was If you work at Uber, you have a responsibility and I'm not gonna tell you exactly what to do, so use your judgment. And it's our expectation that you use your judgment to do the right thing. And sometimes doing the right thing is not clear. Should I go after my business goals? Should I Compromise on a business goal because safety is in question. Of course you should. Safety comes first before business, etc.

1:05:41 But we were putting that weight and that responsibility in uh within the employees. For the rest of the value system. That was kind of crowdsource. It was forgettable. Because it was the kind of stuff that you

1:05:53 Passion. Am I. Teamwork. Like What company doesn't believe in teamwork? Give me a break. So

1:06:00 We uh Nicki uh Krishnamurti who runs uh people She Pushed me. to Reset the values.

1:06:10 four or five years in. By then I felt like I did have a right. To have a point of view. I'd been there. We weren't quite done with the turnaround, et cetera, but I was a part of the company. And then we came up with a value set.

1:06:22 Which is different. You know, there's uh Our one of our values. By the way, go get it was the only one that survived. No, no, sorry. Uh Do the Right Thing was the only one that survived. But for example, go get it is one of our top values. And the idea of go get it is obviously it's literally what we do.

1:06:38 We go. We help people Go. Or get it. Right? Rise and eats.

1:06:44 So it's kinda fun in terms of what we do. But it's an attitude which is We as a company, we're go getters. We're gonna be aggressive.

1:06:52 We're gonna push. We're gonna move fast. We play to win. And so the value sets that we have go get it or One that I really like. Great minds don't think alike.

1:07:03 We s came up with us with a set of values which I think is unusual and describes how we are different as a company. And it's really true to who we are. How important is that? um this sort of this attitude of failure and experimentation, especially in a world that's transitioning as fast as the one we're in. When you listen to people like Ray Curzwell his predictions of the future, he says that if you're ten now by the age of sixty, you'll experience a year's change in I think it's eleven days, and just this sort of this sort of exponential

1:07:29 The law of accelerating returns. You know, how do you create a culture or build a team in a world where the correct answer's changing this quickly? I I think that it is um Setting a culture that does embrace that change and is constantly challenging itself. And

1:07:49 I will give uh Travis and the founding team credit. You know, there there's kind of this idea of everything that they did was terrible and that's just not true. We have a very high talent bar. At the company.

1:08:02 We have always kept a high talent bar at the company and we haven't compromised. And what I found is that Talented people who are also driven. Constant hunt for the truth.

1:08:15 So culture isn't enough. You actually need the right people at the company. And I think we've got a company that Does have a chip on a shoulder. was born out of the creation of a new industry. So we've experienced it.

1:08:29 Um And we have a group of people who are driven and hungry. And Are constantly looking for change and you got a leader and a leadership team.

1:08:42 That's pushing the company to do so and doesn't penalize folks for challenging them. I think it's kind of the stew that you have to put together, but as a combination of Culture on people. Do you have any mental case studies of great But the company has taken.

1:08:58 that most people wouldn't have taken or thought was wrong or wouldn't have taken the risk on that trend. Transpire to be critical to your success. Well, I I think it will be critical to to the success, but th there's a funny one which is Taxis. Are one of the fastest growing parts of Uber's business.

1:09:18 So you remember Uber We started as the enemy attackes. Mm. and built out this peer to peer ride sharing. And probably five or six years ago

1:09:29 our head of product now, S Sachin. He worked on building kind of um A technology that would allow taxi companies to And eventually he came to Uber, thank God.

1:09:41 And he's like, Well why don't we Bill Van Uber. Why do we actually build a Taxis on Uber and originally within the company and and I I kept in touch with some of the founders just

1:09:52 'Cause I want their advice,'cause why not? You know, they they built a great company. I'm standing on the Shoulders of giants. Uh, they said it's the most idiotic thing on earth, you can't wire up taxis, they hate us, they like separate will be terrible, lots of technical reasons. They had tried it earlier. It was a total failure. But I think Sachan

1:10:12 Uh having worked in the industry And then my being kinda ignorant saying, Why the hell not try it? That combination allowed us to build out a taxi product and taxi is the fastest growing segment of the company. And it went completely against the founding of the company. But now we're you know, w I I hope to have every single taxi in the world wired out to Uber. Why not? For the first ten years that I was a founder.

1:10:35 I didn't prioritize getting a good night's sleep at all. But over time I started to realize that it was the key metric that influenced everything in my life. I moved my focus, my ability to show up and to think clearly and to lead well. So now, with my lifestyle being pretty crazy, traveling across time zones, working late, training late, I still fight to protect my sleep, which sometimes means starting the day a little bit later. It was my woop that helped me to make this connection. They are one of my sponsors for the show. And for the last four years, every day, my weep has given me insights into my sleep, my recovery, the strain I'm taking on, and more broadly, how my daily behaviors influence my overall holistic health. It's the difference between guessing and knowing why I might be feeling the way that I feel. Sometimes it'll nudge me. Sometimes it'll get me to slow down. Sometimes it pushes me to go even harder, but all the time it provides me with data that gives me a deeper understanding of myself. And without it, it'd be hard to optimize how I live and perform. Right now you can get one month free through my link at join.woop. dot com slash CEO. One month free. Join dot woop dot com slash CO. This company that I've just invested in is growing like crazy. I wanna be the one to tell you about it because I think it's gonna create such a huge productivity advantage for you. Whisperflow is an app that you can get on your computer and on your phone on all your devices, and it allows you to speak to your technology. So instead of me writing out an email, I click one button on my phone

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1:13:54 There's an alien that's arrived amongst us. Um which is AI. And you've you know Uber's always been somewhat powered from what I understand by Very much so. But um the world has changed in the last couple of years as I released AI. There's been a huge acceleration in investment and improvement of the technology. What do you

1:14:09 Mm. Yep. Aside from Uber. You talked earlier about your early childhood and a how y you know, you grew up with a bit of a paranoia about losing everything because that's what you experience as a young man. You see this technology arrive, which is fundamentally disruptive to all of us, including me as a podcaster. I've done the tests and the retention isn't the retention isn't far off when it's me or AI, so slightly concerning.

1:14:32 But like how do you how do you approach such a tech disruptive technology? Um how do you think of it broadly and the impact it's gonna have on society? And are you paranoid? I'm not paranoid. I'm not I I guess.

1:14:45 I was gonna say I'm not built that way, but maybe I am. I I I think my instinct is always just to go, just to move forward. And Uber has been built. out of an AI core, all of our pricing, all of our routing, who you're matched with. uh whether or not a courier batches a trip, which is do they take two orders or one order? All of our systems, underlying systems are are driven by AI. We do forty million trips a day. You know, that kind of orchestration.

1:15:12 Can't be done. by uh heuristic rules and we've gotta work on the streets of New York and the streets of Lagos as well. So The the s we we have built the entire company on small AI models that have been trained on local problems and then get stitched together. That's literally what the company is.

1:15:32 So for us AI is it's kind of a core skill set. And and AI can It can mess things up. Right, it it's not because it's not heuristics based. There are emergent issues that come out of

1:15:46 And AI that works ninety six percent of the time and four percent of the time it screws up. So we're comfortable with uh uncertainty layer of AI as a company. So We are I would say moving headlong into AI. We're not one of the, you know, research shops, but I would say in terms of

1:16:03 Applied AI. The team is driving to build AI, kind of newer AI experiences across the company. But you know, stepping back as a as a person The impact on society is going to be Enormous.

1:16:19 And Going back to Kurzwell's kind of law of accelerating returns Whereas previously society has always been able to adjust. to these kinds of shifts. Um, it's been able to adjust because it had time.

1:16:34 To just. And AI literally, quite literally thinks. And AI will be able to replace the work that Seventy, eighty percent of humans can do.

1:16:48 Over the next ten years. Ten years is not a lot of time for society to adjust to that kind of an impact. Now, are they gonna be more expensive than humans, cheaper than humans, et cetera, who knows? But the capability will be there. Probably in the next ten years for intellectual jobs, probably call it fifteen years for physical fifteen to twenty years for physical jobs because

1:17:08 Physical AI. It's harder. Cars, et cetera. Yeah. capital heavy takes longer or have to deal with the physical world.

1:17:18 So the the Changes in society are gonna be giant. But My view is You can't slow down the rate of change.

1:17:29 And If you're a part of that change. At least you can have some say. As to how that change imprints on society and imprints on the real world.

1:17:40 And so for me I'm leaning in. It's a it's a very, very exciting time. Seventy to eighty percent of jobs will be Uh disrupted. I

1:17:49 AI is like broadly what you said there. And the pace of change is gonna mean that A lot of people don't have new jobs to go to. Because we haven't I think that's the question. The retraining challenge. And people say, Well, there's gonna be jobs in AI, but like listen. I I got some friends that can't just society's always adjusted, right? Farming was a huge percentage of our labor force, now it's less than one percent. But the speed of I I think that's a question. And you could argue that AIs will be able to retrain you, right? So of course society's gonna adjust.

1:18:21 But I I do think it raises questions, real questions. I've I've not been able to get an answer on that really, I think, from the experts in AI that I've interviewed, which is like what do those 70 or 80 people percent of people do? Because we're seeing in our own business that there's many jobs which we would have hired for previously um across the board that AI is now doing exceptionally well. And every single day, literally daily, We try to see if the new model, Gemini Pro three or whatever, can do things that we're currently doing manually. And every day we're getting those little breakthroughs and going, Oh, okay, now we no longer need to And coding is one of those big areas that you talk about a lot. Where there's been already sort of big dis

1:18:54 Disruption. Positive disruption I Uh. And a lot of your coders are now using AI to Yeah, about ninety percent of our coders are using AI. Now That's easy to say, but but there are

1:19:05 probably thirty percent of them that were power users. They are showing a clear Um differentiation in the number of diffs, for example, how much Uh a diff is a code release that's different from the last code release. So one of the measurements of productivity is Just how many diffs are you putting to the code base? Uber's just a giant code base. That's what we are. And so our engineers are literally the builders of a company. They are

1:19:30 Manufacturing the Brooks. that go into the system. uh and they're architects who are kind of thinking about what the system should should look like. Uh, and so while ninety percent of our engineers are using AI tools of some sort. There's about thirty percent of them that are using them at a completely uh accelerated pace.

1:19:50 And it really is changing their productivity in a way that I've never ever seen before. Ultimately I do think that the job of a coder is going to change more and more from actually Writing the code.

1:20:05 From to some extent orchestrating agents who are writing the code or building systems for you. It becomes more of an orchestration. Job versus A manual writing job.

1:20:17 But The job will still be there. And my attitude is if my average engineer became twenty five twenty five percent more efficient Which we haven't gone there yet, but We will get there.

1:20:28 I'm gonna hire more engineers'cause I want to go faster. Th they're still Lots of unsolved problems that we haven't solved. But I can imagine, you know, maybe five years from now As the engineers get more and more productive. I may not decide to add engineering headcount because

1:20:42 At that point. Instead of adding an engineer, I should add agents and buy some more GPUs from NVIDIA. That may be the investment in the future. We'll see. 'Cause thinking about linear versus exponential as well, if we imagine a rate of improvement

1:20:54 I don't know, in my head I go Won't there come a time where You as the CEO. Or you in a team, an executive team, can tell an agent what you want to build. You can show it the strategy. And theoretically, I mean I can't figure out how this isn't going to be possible.

1:21:08 The agents will then build. Actually, maybe They didn't even need you to set the strategy. Maybe But theoretically, you know, if they're if you imagine any rate of improvement in the intelligence, maybe at some point they're gonna go, Well, listen, we there's a better strategy here, Dara. Wha one of my uh

1:21:23 Uh one of my team members told me that Some teams have built uh a Dara AI, you know. So so that they basically make the presentation. To the Dara AI. As a prep. For making a presentation to me.

1:21:37 'Cause you can imagine, like you know, by the time something comes to be there's been a prep and a meeting and the and the slide deck has been beautifully honed. So they have Dara AI to tune their prep. Or you can say they might show Dara AI to the board. I was like, can I see the code for DAR AI? I'm curious. She's like, no. We're not showing it to you. But is there anything like falsifiable in what I just said about

1:22:02 Th they're coming a time in the not so near future if we imagine exponential improvement where I think I think where AI still is missing a beat that humans And other creatures have is the ability to learn real time. Right. So if if you think about

1:22:17 You and I are learning for this conversation and maybe your behavior is gonna change by point one percent because of actually what you learn here. And the construct of most Large AI models as Capture you know.

1:22:31 enormous amounts of data based on the skill set that you're trying to drive. train pre-train that Model. put it into the real world and then there's some post training of the of the model based on feedback from from the world. And then when the model's released, it's kind of released.

1:22:47 Right. And The way the model learns is, you know Three five becomes three eight. But three five didn't learn.

1:22:55 The engineers went out and built You know? built a new model that's three eight that might have elements of three five. To it, etc. So

1:23:04 The the AI agents. Aren't learning now now a lot of what we're doing is we're building around the foundation models then then bring kind of the signals from the real world and use the skills that the foundation models have. To do good stuff.

1:23:18 And so you can be. Yeah. Post training on post training. Exactly. So well. So we are post training. But We're learning real time.

1:23:28 as human beings. And the when the models can learn real time. Mm. That I think is the point at which I'm going to kinda think, yeah, we are all replaceable. But at this point I haven't seen a model that can learn real time.

1:23:43 One of the real areas of disruption in AI has been autonomous vehicles. And I was just before we start recording, I was saying that uh I have a Tesla. In LA, where I live. And It's staggering that I can get in the car. Yeah. Press the button and drive two and a half hours to Joshua Tree without having to touch the wheel or the pedals.

1:24:00 Now driving I think is one of the biggest employees in the world. Like as a profession. I mean, we've got nine and a half million drivers and couriers on our platform. We are the the largest organizer of flexible work around the world. And they're I I think the second largest, um Workforce is a Chinese army. Wow.

1:24:17 Yeah. It's a big group of folks that we've organized. And statistically, there's less accidents in an autonomous Tesla than there is if a human drives it. So it's safer for my car to drive itself statistically than for me to drive it. That's true, right? That the autonomous driving is currently safer. That's true. So Waymo's are safer and then now

1:24:37 You are a backup to the Tesla, right? As a human being. So I've I've got a Tesla as well. And once in a while it disengages and I've got to, or I've got to disengage. So And It's not necessarily the pure autonomous agent that's better than humans. But definitely the autonomous agent with a human backup.

1:24:56 No question that's better than the pure human. And we can't be far away from it just being I mean Waymo's there already, right? Uh you've you live in LA, try uh they've got the Waymo's, we work with them in Austin, uh in Atlanta. And by all accounts Waymo drivers are safer than human beings. And that's gonna be true of A V

1:25:15 All over the world. You know, there are million Deaths. uh from driving every year in the world. In the US it's between thirty five thousand and forty thousand uh auto fatality so To the extent that these

1:25:29 These autonomous agents. And drivers can be better than humans and they will be better than humans over a period of time. Uh, there's a real return on human life as a result of this. Those nine million.

1:25:42 drivers careers that you have will be out of work. Conceivably. Being honest about the situation. Yeah, I think a again, it goes to physical AI as well, right? So I think twenty years from now, you can imagine that those Nine million will be Yes.

1:25:58 twenty million uh A Vs, maybe. But we have time between now and then. partially because we don't operate in the virtual world, right? We operate in the physical world. You have to get the regulations up, you have to build the cars, you have to build the sensor stacks, the m the models have to get there. So there is time between now and then.

1:26:16 But you can imagine the majority of our trips being Fulfilled. by robots of some kind, probably not ten years from now. But you go fifteen, twenty years from now, you're gonna start getting there.

1:26:31 What do the nine million people do? I don't know. Now we are expanding the kind of work that's available on on on the platform. partially as a result of it, right? We used to be

1:26:43 The only work is driving Now there's delivering. You can have shoppers as well. I think it'll be a a little while at least before you get AI shoppers. And now actually we have a team called Uber AI Solutions. that uh allows people To train.

1:26:59 these same agents and train uh AI agents and AI models uh and do all kinds of knowledge based work on their phone as well. to kind of extend the kind of work that we offer uh humans on our platform and different opportunities for the for them to To make money. So

1:27:17 We are extending the platform. And then the question is how much of the platform gets automated? And what's the velocity at which we can extend our platform into other kinds of work. Versus the velocity of automation. I can't tell you which is gonna go faster. Hand on heart, though, the th it does appear that un unemployment is gonna be significantly increased in a world of AI, especially

1:27:36 We just imagine this sort of continual rate of improvement. I just can't. Historically in societies new kinds of jobs have come up. Knowledge jobs, physical jobs. Yeah, but now we've disrupted both. That's why.

1:27:53 There's a question here. And I do think there's a real question as to the ability of societies to retrain, the abilities of human beings to retrain themselves. AI is going to be a part of that. But the timing there, how fast is it gonna go, it's a real question mark. I I think you're absolutely right. I don't think it's gonna be a big issue.

1:28:12 Big issue. uh in the next five years, but when you go five plus years, it's gonna become more of a more more of an issue for society at large. It's interesting,'cause what I was thinking putting two and two together about your your your father's journey of coming to the US, losing what he had, losing his job, and the the loss of like meaning and purpose being really central to him. And I can see that in b i basically from your face, that M m I think I what I interpreted from your face was that he struggled with As any

1:28:37 Provide a word. The loss of like meaning that comes with'cause not just about money, the it's especially you know They give you a sense of Worth. It's funny, I I I read um I read a study many years ago that said when they looked at

1:28:51 Suicide letters specifically from men. Think it was an Australian study. In the suicide letters. The the sentiment was about not feeling Worth.

1:29:02 Yes. full to your family. Yeah. And the extreme of that was I think my family would actually now be better off without me. Interesting. And um And it's kind of, you know, I think is probably s adjacent to this conversation around job displacement, which is where are we gonna find our meaning?

1:29:17 In a world where The machines have now disrupted our intelligence and our muscles. It's every universal income. Basic income test has failed. You know, the answer that you hear from folks is well

1:29:32 The robots are gonna do all the work. They're going to create um Utility. And so our work won't have to create utility, so people will just have money. But It goes to exactly what you're saying, which is every single test they've done, no, it's not

1:29:47 twenty, but they've done a couple of tests where certain section of the population, similar population gets income. Certain session doesn't. And Every time the ones who are getting income.

1:29:57 Do worse in terms of outcomes. Because Well. We don't know the because. But I think the because is related to what you're saying, which is

1:30:09 market forces kind of that force someone to work then create A perception of self value, succeeding, you know, most people succeed. If they're driven to succeed, they will succeed. And as they succeed, it comes with a very, very

1:30:26 Deep and important. feeling of I am creating value, I'm supporting my family, I'm uh building this incredible piece of art, et cetera. Whatever that value is to you and wherever that meaning comes from, I'm an incredible parent. that value is what keeps people going. Uh and

1:30:44 I don't think that, you know. the government's raining money down on society's gonna help. It's refreshing to hear your perspective on this because a lot of the time You know, you'll hear COs in the media just saying, It'll be fine, everyone's gonna figure it out. And I think that's a great thing.

1:31:01 But but You have to ask whether they're giving you the real stuff or not. Yeah, and that's kind of what I that's what I s I think is I sometimes hear about private conversations and the private conversations I hear about the sheer amount of disruption that they anticipate. And then when I see them on like C MBC or Davos, It's fine to figure out. And I understand the incentive because if they were to start ringing the bell.

1:31:20 it might hurt their own chance of like innovating and fundraising and all those things. But I think you sit at this sort of happy medium of being Yeah, f as the C of Uber. you've got to t you've got to pursue the opportunity and the technology. But on the other hand, to be honest and say, listen There's gonna be big disruption and we I don't know the answers. I remember you were talking about C and B C a C N B C anchor once. We had an interviewing afterwards.

1:31:42 She said, Uh You know, I really like you. You actually answer my questions. What am I not supposed to? There there's like the the PR trading as always if you get a bad question. Don't answer the question, just pivot to something else.

1:31:58 And for me, like I've I've sworn to myself. Uh and Noah who's who's up there is probably gonna kill me afterwards. It's just I'm gonna answer the question. I'm not gonna do the BS. And again, I have to think. The anchor knows what's happening.

1:32:13 The audience knows what h what's happening. So I'm like, I'll answer the question. If it's a shitty question, I'll deal with it. I actually don't like interviewing COs, which is funny because the name of the podcast because act is. 'Cause I I looked before I came on. I'm like I'm gonna look up on Uh yeah, the CEOs. And there aren't that many CEOs. Well if I looked at your diary. What would I find inside your diary? I would f probably find you contending with being a father, your psychologist. I might find some things in there about your health. I can see you're a guy that goes to the gym. Yeah. Um and I think it's all interlinked. I think for you to be an exceptional CEO, you probably think a lot about

1:32:47 Your past, your childhood, your health, your how to optimize and all these things. And so Honestly, you can't do a podcast like this for Twenty years. And just hit the same thing every day. You need to be like I need to be intellectually stimulated. And you and me are both uh multifaceted creatures, I guess, so that's why.

1:33:04 It's evolved. Until we become AIs. Until we become AIs. Yeah. Just closing off on that then, um What can we do about this?

1:33:14 From an AI A V perspective. Is it the government's responsibility? Is it Collective action. So one is I do think that we don't talk enough and that For example, with autonomous AI can be a force for good, right? It's these drivers are gonna be safer than human beings.

1:33:30 And those we can take the thirty five thousand fatalities to three thousand fatalities, et cetera. I do think that the AI's the A V is going to bring down the price of transportation. So A a big part of our Goal is to make on demand transportation available for everybody.

1:33:49 One of the folks that I was talking to was talking about how Uber has changed her mother's life, like her mom can get around and just wouldn't get around without it, right? We want more moms like that. So I do think it's important to recognize That If

1:34:03 Transport fundamental transportation become safer. It becomes cheaper. Going back to Germany's. Paradox. That's a good thing for society.

1:34:10 Right. I don't think that the answer as it relates to society is to try to slow down the pace of change because China won't. For example, if we're uh talking about the West. So I think you just have to lean into it.

1:34:28 I think that discussions like this are important. I think you look for technology leaders who are talking about it. Dario, for example, Anthropic is talking uh about it. Pissing some people off, but I think he's having Good discussions there.

1:34:42 And then I do think that the the society arming up to be able to retrain Large Groups of people at scale. Is not a skill I don't see people investing that.

1:34:57 And I don't see that as a core capability of any Of our countries, et cetera. If there's one thing I can come up with it will be that is the Retraining machine. You've got five four kids. Yes. They come to you, they say, Dad, listen, AI, robotics

1:35:10 W give me some advice for my future. What shall I be doing? Work hard. You're gonna be fine. Work hard. It is just that I I mean, now the AIs theoretically can can work harder than you, but I I find

1:35:25 One of the pieces of advice I give to young people is Don't plan. Okay, I wind up we went through our history. I wind up where I am. Today.

1:35:34 having not planned a thing. I didn't when I was a investment banker, I wasn't dreaming of becoming CEO, et cetera. And and what I find is that people who have too much of a career plan, who have too much clarity about what they're doing. They they lose their curiosity. And and human beings.

1:35:51 Look for positive signal, right? You Whether you like it or not. Any time someone agrees with you. Makes you feel a little bit better. Anytime you get signal that goes against

1:36:02 Your preconceived notions. Either you ignore it or you're like All right, shit. I'm gonna I'm gonna take this on. It's unpleasant. And so with with career planning what I find is people who have to clear

1:36:15 uh career plan. They're looking for signals that feed into their career plan. I'm gonna be a vice president by this much. I'm gonna make X money by this much. And they're not looking around. They're not being curious. They're they're not looking for signal that Can change. You know their life and and and so what I tell some folks is like Before you go out and

1:36:33 Try to change a world? Let the world change you first. You know, take input. And If you're like this

1:36:42 You got blinders'cause I'm going here. You're not gonna take input. You're not gonna let You're not gonna take all the stimulus coming in from the world. So It it's you know, the one constant I see is People who are good are good. People who are good. I've never seen a successful person in

1:36:59 In a job or career. Get there without Working hard. And my guess is I don't know about you. You kinda wound up where you're

1:37:08 Wound up. Kinda by accident. And people were like, Well you got lucky I got very lucky. To be here. Like S I had so many kind of

1:37:18 Moments. And and some would say I took advantage of that lo uh of of that luck, but to some extent I was able to take advantage of that luck because I was open. Being open, you jumped from Expedia to Uber. Um in part

1:37:32 Helped by some advice that our mutual friend Daniel Eck, the founder of Spotify, gave you. Uh he's actually just texting me. I text him saying, Hey, can you uh Can you send me a question to ask Darry, but he said I'm in the middle of nowhere. Texting while we're talking. No, just before I walked in. I've just looked, he text me back saying he's on an earnings call. Never mind. But um he said good luck with the interview. Um What did Daniel X say to you that helped to you form that decision to go to Uber. So he's the one who recommended I think I was I was uh contacted by Headhunter.

1:38:01 He recommended me to the head hunter who called me. Uh I told them I was actually at the Allen and Company conference going back in a uh circle with them and we were having a drink one night. And he asked me he's like, Did the headhunter call you? There's this Uber roll. And at the time at the time, Uber was a disaster. Like disaster. And everyone was reading about it. I was at Expedia. I had just gotten this wonderful contract that you said at the beginning.

1:38:25 So I was I was gonna stay and I love working for Barry. We're like it it it's been it's been the best professional partnership of of my life. And I said, Of course I'm not gonna go. You know, I'm so happy about what I'm doing in Expedia. And Daniel like looks at me. He's gotta his like

1:38:42 Cold Scandinavian eyes. Sekt Dara! Since when is life about being happy? It's about making impact. Uber is a great company.

1:38:52 And you can have an impact on that company. You've got to. Do this. So the next day I called the headhunter previously. I said, No, I'm not interested The next day I called the head hunter and I said, Let's talk.

1:39:06 So Daniel was the one who Open me up. And your dad? He gave you advice. I talked to my dad and uh

1:39:15 As My data is Keeps things simple. And he said, Dada. It is Far see

1:39:22 When a company who's a verb Tells you to run it? You just say yes. So I thought that was Good uh

1:39:30 Good advice. And and ultimately I think people Who Come to Uber, stay at Uber. They come because of the challenge. But they stay because of the impact.

1:39:42 Like we are building a company that is important to the world. And for me I could come and I could have an I can have impact. on impactful company, so why the hell not? And when he says a company that's a verb, he's referring to the fact that everybody

1:39:55 in the the taxing or transportation category uses Uber as a verb to d even if they're talking about a competitor. Exactly right. Um and there's always one c company in every c sort of industry. We have a closing tradition here where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest not knowing who they're leaving it for. And the question left for you. Is what is one conversation that if you could rewind time and have

1:40:17 you would have today but can no longer have. It was a conversation with with my dad. Um You know, I told you I came to New York from San Francisco, and uh it was because my dad was getting very old and he was losing his mental facilities.

1:40:37 And I'm glad I came back. And I got spent time with him. But those last times, you know, when I spent time with him, it wasn't really him. And I wish I could talk to him about

1:40:49 his experience as His younger life The excitement of building something, and then the loss and regrets he had in in life as well. I never had You know, my relationship with him was kind of Was

1:41:02 There was love. No question about love. But we didn't have the deep kind of conversations that certainly I'm hoping I get to have with my kids. So that's a conversation I'd love to have. And you can't get uh time back.

1:41:15 Uh, and that's one of the tragedies of life. But it's also one of the beauties of life. You know, which is there are some mistakes that you make that Or permanent. Um and you can't get that back.

1:41:26 But my then making genuine conversations with you. And connections with my friends. And having uh real relationship. На час вот миф, майд.

1:41:39 But actually like with my workmates. You know, we having those genuine conversations and connections Um is My way of correcting.

1:41:49 For the conversation I never had with my dad. Dora, thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. You're a huge inspiration for me in so many ways, and even more so now, having done so much research on you in preparation for this conversation, because It is it is rare to find a leader who has been consistently successful across different domains, who's built this really, really, in my opinion, quite rare skill stack from investing to CFO to then being able to transition to CEO and then has repeatedly contended with moments of transition. And given us all framework as founders for entrepreneurs for how to deal with that transition, one of the great ones I take away from you is is

1:42:25 Honesty. Yeah. Honesty is so powerful. And I tell you I learned I learned that skill from my wife. She's just She She's always like people are people. Doesn't matter, you know, they

1:42:36 Eat the crap, they have to go to sleep. And she treats Everybody in her life. the same way regardless of their position and and uh yeah. Yeah, and she's she's

1:42:48 U honesty It's just so powerful. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. An unbelievable inspiration. Thank you. I appreciate it. Uh

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