#831: Frank Miller, Comic Book Legend — Creative Process, The Dark Knight Returns, Sin City, 300, and Much More

0:00 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to deconstruct world class performers across all different disciplines. And my guest today is in a sense My lifetime, a lifetime in the making, since I've been a fan since I was a we lad. And certainly many, many months in the making to do this in person with the one and only Frank Miller. Frank Miller is one of the most influential and awarded creators in entertainment, first gaining notoriety in the late 70s for his transformative work on Marvel's Daredevil. And in the world of comic books, Frank is a rare breed. He's kind of like Bo Jackson in that sense. Not only was he one of his generations, probably across multiple generations, one of the most influential artists. in that entire industry, but one of the most influential writers. And that is a very, very, very uncommon combination of talents, particularly in the West. And I'll provide more context. After Daredevil, he went on to create some of the industry's most groundbreaking titles, including Ronin,

1:02 Batman The Dark Knight Returns and Batman Year One. So if you've seen the later Batman movies, that sort of anti-hero positioning, the imagery, a lot of it comes straight from his work. His series Sin City and the award winning graphic novel 300 were both adapted into blockbuster films, with Miller co-directing the Sin City movies with Robert Rodriguez. who is my friend here in Austin and has been on the podcast before. Frank's upcoming memoir, Push the Wall, My Life, Writing, Drawing, and the Art of Storytelling is now available for pre-order. You can find all things frank at Frank Miller Inc., that's I N K, Frankmiller Inc. com, and on Instagram at Frank MillerOfficial. And without further ado, please enjoy A long awaited for me. and wide ranging practical conversation with the one and only Frank.

1:48 Miller. Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And I answer your personal question. Now we're just seeing it.

2:01 My cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoscellar. Sure. Frank, so nice to see you. Good to see you.

2:19 The phone with our mutual friend, Robert Rodriguez. I'm sure that name is gonna come up again. I'm sure that's gonna come up again. And before we even get close to Robert, Thank you, Robert, for the introduction. I want to pick up on something we were chatting about briefly before we started recording. And this is Aristotle. Yes. All right, why did Aristotle come into the conversation?

2:43 Definition of Happiness was the devotion of all of one's energies along lines of excellence. I believe that that Is a general application that

2:54 you know, in an ideal life would apply to every moment you have. But it is a guiding principle to a creative life. That's them tick. Maybe Some of my

3:07 Props that we have here. And I'm gonna go to my phone because I was reading An early copy of Push the Wall, My Life Writing, Drawing and The Art of Storytelling. And I took a lot of highlights. And I had to take photographs of the PDF of my Kindle to look at some of them. And I wanted to go through a little list. This might seem strange, but I tend to obsess on the specifics.

3:30 These are some of the tools of Your trade. Blackwing graphite pencils, white paint, India black ink. Liquid frisket. Erasers and sable brushes and then it goes through

3:41 Description of a lot more. Winds and Newton series seven mostly sizes three to twelve, et cetera. A few questions that I wanna ask. About Including The toothbrush, my trusty spatter maker. What is

3:57 Liquid frisket. Liquid brisket. Is essentially glue. Okay. It was first

4:05 Called that and used by Oil painters. Highlights. What the banger would do would we would

4:14 Lay down strokes. Of this glue across the paint. Been pained to cross it. And then before Declaring that.

4:24 Painting finished. He or she would then wipe Up frisk it. And you would have this. Sparkling.

4:33 piece of the underpainting showing through. And it's so it it creates a very dramatic highlight. I like to use it with ink. Because it creates an element of chaos. An element of chaos. So you seem to be a in a sense someone who thrives in chaos or by creating certain types of chaos. And this monster that I'm holding for those who are listening and not watching, I'm

4:57 I'm holding something in my lap. that feels like it's twenty to thirty-five pounds. I was carrying it around, walking through New York City, getting a lot of odd looks because it's It's a rectangle. About the size of an X ray plate you would use to take a X ray of both lungs. It's gigantic. Then this is

5:17 Frank Miller's Sin City. The hard goodbye. And I wanna just open this up. And I'm gonna read Something from right inside. This is from Jim Lee

5:28 Another legend. In the space. Another hero of mine. For another time, I used to have his job at the same college as graphic editor of the Prince and Tiger. Fould Sketches of his in one of the desks, in fact. But here's this quote. Even after twenty five years, Frank Miller's Sin City, the hard goodbye showcases the full potential of the comics medium. A stark, brilliant chair s girl.

5:53 It remains a defiantly timeless, handcrafted Love letter the days of old in an increasingly slick and digital world. And I segue from the tools because when I look at Some of these pages.

6:08 And I'll uh provide some of these as B roll and so on. Yeah, looking at Something like this. Yeah. I'll just show that to the I mean it is a masterpiece. I mean any one of these. Could be on a wall. By itself.

6:22 But this is sequential. Storytelling. And I have many questions, but one of them is about kind of aliveness. And

6:34 that channeling all of your energies into excellence because And I think this came up in the documentary about you as well, American Genius. that you kind of attack the page. Like there seems to be a real kinetic channel of energy into the page, which you can see in this particular version, the curator's collection.

6:54 What did it feel like when you were making This that I'm holding. Very physical. Very physical. Sin City was a real breakthrough that way'cause it was the first time I decided

7:05 The The book you're holding is the actual size of the page I did. And so what is the size? It's it's called twice up. It's four times the size of the published I mean that is it covers my entire body on video. But that is the size that comic books were originally drawn. Back in the nineteen forties.

7:27 And over time. In order to pick up s speed of production. And just lower the price of making comics. They made them smaller and smaller and smaller until finally they decided they ought to fit into an eleven by seventeen. Photocopier.

7:42 And uh made the The page is very, very tiny to work on. Which was about time I came in. And when I discovered these old originals from the forties I went That's why they looked so damn good.

7:58 And I decided with Cincity I was gonna Correct the error. That's amazing. And Yeah. I mentioned this at the end of your list.

8:10 How do you use the toothbrush because I feel like this At least in my mind. is one of the Hallmark signatures.

8:20 In the minds of many. Uh uh some Frank Miller artwork is this particular element. So how do you use the toothbrush? What I do is if lid of a bottle of Indiank has a little squirter thing on it. And I squirt some of that onto a the bristles of a toothbrush.

8:37 Run my thumb across a toothbrush. And it it splatters across. An effect that could be Texture on a wall. Dexterness guy splurting blood. What are we?

8:48 Just kinda dragging your thumb. Just across the spraying it like you as you would as a child would. Yeah. What I love is that it it gives you That lovely element of chaos across picture. Across time I

9:03 Would combine or Replace that with Simply snapping a brush across my Rest. Which would create more of an elongated

9:13 Stretchy. Sort of a slash. It creates again something that's unpredictable. But very organic. That's just playing with the materials.

9:23 What was your motto. This is from the book as well. Your senior year of high school. I think it was Get the Hell Out of My Way. Get the hell out of my way. I was impatient to leave school and get to work.

9:37 Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if the impatient ended there. So I say that as someone who's also very impatient. Yeah. It ha it has pros and cons. And I'm wondering Like the visceral violence that is channeled into creating say what we see on the page in Sin City, the kinetic aspect of it is so palpable.

9:58 How do you relate to Anger. Using it the right dose, if there is a right dose, channeling it versus being controlled by it. How do you think about That fire maybe is a better way to put it within No no no. I mean anger's a good word too. It's a An important and powerful component drama.

10:18 Trauma is essentially conflict. If you go all the way back to like the Norse myths and But you can take it all the way. From the Norse mist through to like terms of endearment or whatever else. Those are all full of Storm and Drunk.

10:32 And Comics are A Purely visual media. And also a

10:40 Not very On the face of it, powerful. Did no way a comic book. Compete with the Sheer.

10:51 Yeah. Spectacular firepower of cinema. That is you you uh cinema completed so many of your senses. And it involves Images that are

11:02 Perceptibly real. And real people. Expressing these emotions at you. And then when they want to do spectacle. They started proving it.

11:13 Way back with D. W Griffith. Concealed the deal with Star Wars. Nobody can touch him. And they they can outdo anything in stage. In in any other form.

11:25 So comics had to come out. With like with little Jack Kirby swinging in. And just showing Okay. You know, we can't really do that.

11:37 So we're gonna go even more crazy. And you know, he made up characters who could Eat planets. And it in The case of what I've put after with my comics.

11:48 Is to have the drawing itself be so Emotional and extreme. I'm trying to make it out act an actor. Well what I love about Your comics.

12:00 So first of all, I should just point out to people that don't know anything about this world. You seem to me to be An outlier on a number of different levels. One of which is that you're Very well known for your art. And you are very well known for your writing.

12:15 How common is that? In the US It's in Japan it's a little more it's a little more typical, but in the US, where would you More common than it used to be.

12:30 Because it used to be Almost not allowed. There were a few exceptions. You know, there was Will Eisner, for instance, who was really outstanding in that he clearly Ran the whole show.

12:43 For people who have no context whatsoever. Why is Eisner such an important figure? I mean he's one of the founding fathers, for one thing. Because he could do the entire thing. Other people could as well, but he

12:57 decided to keep doing the entire thing rather than Just Becoming part of a factory. course he ran his own factory, but that's a whole nother story, but Ultimately he

13:08 settled on doing his one series spirit. Which is known as the Little Isners of the Spirit. And even though he employed other people along the way. He always ran the show. Supervised completely.

13:21 And as he got older He started doing work that he did inch. Top to bottom by himself. That was of much more personal nature. Where he once again turned comics in a new direction.

13:33 Let's Explore Other figures who have helped Showcase the potential.

13:42 Uh This medium. Mm-hmm. Through innovating because I love This

13:49 People listening may not be Comic lovers. But there's some medium. That they're fascinated by. Right. And whether it's in the realm of

14:01 Fiction. And Леч са новис, ветвей цін, вет комікс. There are things that we might take for granted now that were not at all obvious. A decade or two ago.

14:16 And Seems like a good time to maybe talk about Jack Kirby. And How he impacted.

14:26 the world of comics and correct me if I'm wrong, but I was reading this is straight from your book. That for a long time comics were Set panels. In a sense, right? And you kinda filled in the blanks. To the extent that

14:39 Artists would sometimes get sort of Free. I don't want to say cut, but Sort of outlined pages. Within which to place their game.

14:47 There were a lot of various ways they're restricted. I mean it's In various ways. And a lot of this happened before I was around, so I don't know. But I think the reason you bring Kirby up is in this respect. Well, he was the guy who came in.

15:02 When comics all had either a nine panel grid or a six panel grid. They were all the panels of the same page. And more than anybody. He blast that to pieces. He was like our DW Griffith. He just

15:17 You know, rip the camera off the floor and And all of a sudden he would use two pages for a single image. For a kid like me. It was mind expanding. It was I I was

15:29 You know, this one guy just kept coming back. Decade. Decade. Decades. I mean you started way before I was born.

15:37 I mean he started in World War Two with my parents. Not side by side, but you know. He had several comebacks. And each time he seemed to reinvent the whole McGilla. You have

15:51 Seems like a few different Guiding phrases. We have one, of course, from the book title itself, Push the Wall. Another one that comes to mind is defy the code. Yeah. Can you expand on

16:07 Both of these, please. Why these two? Pushing the wall. We're pushing the walls. It's just

16:16 Strangely schizophrenic. Field where

16:23 On the one hand You have. Artist cartoonish. Writers are such people who Want to explore and try new things.

16:35 The nature of these fantasies is is exploratory. But the Business has always been Very conservative. And D

16:45 People who grew up on comics became very tradition bound. They would fret over things like What we call continuity.

16:57 Worrying about If you're working on issue three hundred and eighty five of a Spider Man, you can't contradict something that was done. In issue fourteen. Which is on the face of it absurd because the character would be eighty five if it

17:13 And so You had this hide bound on one side. And it's it's like enthusiastic experimental.

17:22 And I've I've always just wanted to post more toward to people Looking for a future and for Trying on new stuff. Just a quick thanks to our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show.

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19:51 Yeah. How did you And we're gonna jump around chronologically, if you're But Let me see if I can find this particular

20:01 Paragraph from your book. Relates to a name that you will recognize. And that is uh Neil Adams. So Neil was a hard taskmaster, utterly ruthless in his criticism. He was a godsend. I just want to read another paragraph.

20:19 We'll get into the description of who this is, but You cold called his office, is that right? Yes. Okay, cold called his office. This is when no one knows who you are. And then ultimately

20:31 I think it was his daughter who answered the phone. She says this dad, we got another one. Yeah. somehow you ended up in the office. You show him your work. And then And I'll quote here. He told me just how awful my stuff was and didn't bother with using any sugar coating either.

20:46 Where'd you say you were from? Vermont. Go back to Vermont. Pump gas. Get married. You're no good, and you never will be. End quote. I gulped this is referring to you and then asked. Can I fix it and show you again tomorrow? To which Neil responds, Yeah. I'll see you tomorrow. He growled. Okay. Who is Neil and why did you reach out to him? Well, that's Neil Adams. Yeah, who is he?

21:06 He is the outstanding Artist of He was in way a one man generation. Because there was a long period where nobody entered the comics business because it didn't pay well. And

21:18 Believe me. The common wisdom would be out of business soon. We've just been through the horrors of the comics code. And the Public humiliation in the end, the uh

21:30 Self censorship of that time. Been disgraced going from a a mass medium. And being turned into a just a A punchline. You know a dirty bunch. Line.

21:41 And there were just a few people. Keeping the light alive and Still doing these old titles like The Flash and so on. But the Books were looking pretty crummy.

21:53 But there were these glimmers, there were these guys, some of the old guys Just stayed there and kept doing great stuff. An artist named Gil Kane, for instance. But there was Neil Adams. He was this new guy. Who came in young.

22:08 And brought such enthusiasm. And all new look. It'll all new um Take me seriously, look. It was much more uh

22:17 You know, um a much more realistic look. And he Drag the whole generation. With him in in a lot of ways. Not just with his work.

22:28 He did it with his speech. And with his actions. He opened up a studio in Manhattan. Called Continuity, which did advertising work. And essentially became a halfway house for

22:44 comic book artists to come in and get his training. Where he became the guru of this place. When I called up. I look up his number in the phone book, you said. Spoke to his daughter.

22:56 Got to see him that day and And start hanging out there. And I started living on little advertising jobs. Sometimes I just color them. And then eventually I get to draw them and so on. And then he lined up my first comic book.

23:12 Work. I was hardly the only one. So I I'm so Fascinated by this.

23:21 Exchange. And his willingness to help for a few different reasons, right? Number one is I wonder how did this guy Muster the bandwidth. To do his own work.

23:33 run a business and also Mentor. Just that question alone. And then I also think about the sliding door moment of what if he had s just had a really bad day and he was like, You're not coming back tomorrow, kids. Sorry, I'm too busy. Right. Like what a different life

23:50 Sorry, I'm sorry, I gotta blow my own horn. Yeah, believe it or not. I was a pr determined little bastard. So I would have been back anyway. You would have been back anyway. I had banged on many doors before his well, okay. So this was actually gonna be my next question, which was like why Do you think that's the same. He agreed to Let you come back.

24:11 He was like, Go pump gas, go back to Vermont, and then you're like, Let me fix it and come back to Vermont. He's like, Ah, okay, fine. Actually, no, you because I asserted Mm-hmm. I asserted that I wanted to. Sure. Okay, got it.

24:23 Because I didn't cry and leave. How many interactions like that? How many different visits showing him work did it take for him to finally Say that your work was not

24:34 For throwing away. I it wasn't all that many, I don't think. And you know, then then I worked on Short little jobs for Gold Key Comics. That was an old publisher a long time ago.

24:47 And so on where They would hire you for a three page job where you got Twenty five dollars a page, that kind of thing. That was what they called pay your dues. Yeah.

24:57 We're gonna hop around a little bit. I mean, people need to read the book. They need to see the doc. but I know a lot of people have covered certain aspects of your bio. You first gain notoriety. In the late seventies for your

25:10 Transformative work on Daredevil. Right. Now I also and this is pulling from the book read a bit and this is I'm putting a character, you'll have to explain, but Electra in kind of brackets because I'm inserting that.

25:24 But Now I'm quoting you, was the true genesis of my career in comic books. Could you speak to That chapter of your life. That involved Electra.

25:35 And what the significance of that was. Oh, I think that it was because Yeah. Ali I didn't come in as the writer on Yeah, I just simply came in as an artist for hire. And realized

25:47 Fairly early on that This was no way to do it. Because the pictures and the words are one thing. I mean the words were obvious once I drew the pictures and I very quickly took Plotting the stories and so on.

26:01 I felt that a that Daredevil needed a a counterpoint. A female. And I came up with Electra, but I realized I was gonna hold her back until I was writing the book myself.

26:15 And I did it that way. I suppose what I'm trying to unpack is And maybe I'm overstating the importance, but Was that Introduction of Electra.

26:27 An important inflection point for you in some way. Yeah. In what way was it important? Well if you if you look at those old comics That's when In a way I started g understanding what a Marvel Comic was. A Marvel Comic.

26:42 Isn't a story every month. A Marvel Comic is an ongoing Subper that you're following. And as soon as You know, with my first issue that I wrote

26:55 It was called Electra and it was all about them. From then on the whole thing becomes one. Sprawling. I mean sprawling in both good and bad ways. Sort of epic. Yeah.

27:07 Characters come, characters go, but It's focused around a pretty small cast. You know, there's a diabolical kingpin. Runs all the gangs. There's The deadly enemy bullseye.

27:19 Neither of whom I made up. And there's you know, Daritable and Electra. And All of this is like a tortured romance that The hero is in love with a psychotic assassins. So it's it's bound to be out of some trouble. Bound to have some tears involved at some point. It was very adolescent.

27:39 But I'm very proud of it. I mean I loved Electra. He was really inspired. I have a lot of Comics with Electra. At my childhood home. Yeah.

27:54 Right. You know. So for folks who don't have any familiarity, and also because I want to better understand it, I mean there are Different approaches to Making a comic. Yeah. And also crafting a story. Right. And so I want to pull up

28:10 Something that I have here. And it's gonna take me a second to read, but I'd love you to walk people through this after I read. At least some of it. All right, everything starts with and proceeds from story. Some simple story rules. Number one, start your story as late into the action as possible.

28:27 And it as early into the action as possible, too. Get your hero into trouble. Fast to that or give the hero a pressing problem to solve. I work on the spine of the story. That's a phrase that I'd love for you to define. Work on the spine of the story and figure out how it starts and ends. And then roughly plot the in between.

28:45 And I'll just read one more sentence and then I'll let you kind of fill to do this, I make notes and create scenes that will advance the storyline, but allow room for digressions and narrative side streets. And then you talk about preliminary sketches and so on. Can you Expand on this and just Maybe give an example.

29:03 of how you would do that, whether it's with a book. Like Sin City or any other that comes to mind. How you actually uh Start from the Step one in creating a story.

29:15 Mm. And then proceed through that. Seems like also in the introduction that having a very good idea of where your story ends.

29:24 Is a critical piece of that. I knew at the beginning of the City that Marvel could die. For instance, it's very important. Um Of course it's when I started Dark Knight I thought Batman was gonna die.

29:38 Yeah, it didn't work out though. Yeah. Yeah. Might Methodology has changed over time. It used to be uh the mo as rigid as as you know, more rigid than what you just read.

29:51 I mean I used to really believe there was a way, that was seeking the way to do it. Now I do believe And lighting a story. nudge me in another direction. I believe in trusting the muse more than I used to.

30:04 How does that show up then in practice? Do you have You know the starting point, you know the end of the story. You have characters in a situation, do you draw your way through and then figure out kind of the narrative arc.

30:19 What is the proper blend for you now of the the thing is is too serendipity. Commenting yourself as being the generator of the story, surely. And saying that these are the pieces of clay and this is what I wanna do with them. Like To realize that the artistic process. is not

30:36 At its best when it's an ego maniacal process. And sometimes the characters talk back. And sometimes they know more than you do. And always be aware that there will be that. Just that flash, that thing that happens.

30:50 Where all of a sudden you're in a different story and you realise this is the one that No, this isn't the one I was looking for, but this is the where I wanna be. I don't know. It I mean sort of like Being a space explorer and being ready for things. And knowing the the whole job is really no wet.

31:06 He's trying to figure out what to ignore and what to follow. I like the mystery of storytelling. More than the uh How are I used to see it? Well let's talk about

31:16 Picking and choosing. And specifically would love to hear I lived in Japan as an exchange student and learned to read and speak Japanese largely from reading comic books. So Zorial Come must keep you busy. Yeah. I mean, I was busy reading all sorts of comic books with my little electronic dictionary. I would love to read

31:39 Yeah, Japanese. Oh yeah. It's it's a different experience, of course. Yeah. How did you first get exposed to, for instance, Mobius. Potomo, any others you want to mention. How did you get exposed to those influences and who were or who are they?

31:57 The two main invasions. Both three. It's reactually. The first was the English. Because G C Comics started publishing Brian Bolland and

32:08 Mike McMahon and all the rest. But they were The easiest for everybody to see because they were all American comics fans and they and you know The language was the same and everything.

32:20 It started getting A lot wilder. When Forbidden Planet comics opened. Manuel Forbidden Planet. Yeah. And when Marvel started publishing movies.

32:32 Then the floodgates opened because it was Europe. Just knock everybody's socks off. It was Mobius, Mobius, Mobius, Mobius, Mobius. But there are the other guys too that nobody's paying attention to.

32:45 Mobius obviously did was a tidal wave that swept through culture. It is a cinema and so on. And For me. The other

32:55 event was I had a girlfriend. Yeah. Father. Was a businessman.

33:02 Who did a lot of business in Japan. And S It's like phone box. That was a Japanese comic.

33:11 And with Cozuri, okay. And I opened it and studied it and fell in and and like Ronan was born that day. My storytelling style changed everything. And you know and from that I helped bring The title over and and helped with the

33:26 The Asian invasion. Seeing it all become so much more international has just been fascinating. And with the Asian stuff, you've got just a completely Different. Sense of time.

33:37 And space. It is the dead opposite of the European. When was Mobius? Sort of uh His

33:44 peak of influence. What what would have been the timing roughly on that? I couldn't name the exact dates, certainly He's up there with Jack Kirby in terms of being one of those people who It's like if you're listening Beethoven and Mahler and all that. I'm trying to figure out if the timing is such,'cause I've I've looked at tons of Mobius artwork.

34:03 That Moby come out. When did Alien Oh Alien. Good question. I mean it would have been post Star Wars. I was just trying to think,'cause like Mobius also a lot of His artwork makes me think of like Tatooine and some of these things in Star Wars. So I'm wondering what the directionality is. Yeah, okay. That's what I was trying to answer for myself because it seems so obvious.

34:27 When you look at it. And To come back to the Japanese a comic book that I Use it's not a well known title.

34:35 Certainly outside of Japan, even within Japan, a lot of Japanese people kinda scratch their head when I tell them It's called. Which is a Rokodge Blues, which is about high school gangs, which aren't really a thing, but They pretend like it is. And you know, the bad kids wear different types of uniforms called chodan or like anyway. And it's it but it's a hyper violent. There are a lot of fight scenes in this, which made it a little

35:03 less intimidating for someone who couldn't yet really read Japanese, right? So th my translating burden was lower with this comic. And the art was spectacular. What blew my mind, because I had read comics all the way through my childhood up to that point, and I was 15 when I got to Japan. Like you said, it was How time and space and speed and motion were depicted so differently.

35:30 And how they captured Say the swing of a leg. Or created the effective blur. Yeah. Was so captivating to me, it was unlike anything I had seen.

35:40 Yeah, one of the things I've got to say is that Amazes me about the manga stuff. Is that They could draw people relax so well. That so much of the drawing and

35:52 Non loving cob People aren't Blazing around and stuff. And even in combat. What they're capturing is the

36:03 fluidity and grace of the movement. I mean it's the opposite of Kirby. Where everything is angles and Force. And so it's a very Asian

36:12 Biolence. And in Europe you'll often see a very elegant Mobius' violence when he went really violent. It would be jarring and Habt ihr.

36:23 But it would still be gorgeous. And it would still be The wrist would be crouched just that much, you know, and as it slammed into the person's face and so on. And it's just the difference of cultures reflected in Every aspect of cartooning is fascinating.

36:38 How did The European and Japanese styles that sort of that would incorporate lone wolf and cub influence then How your approach changed after that.

36:51 Okay. Um I wish Very young.

36:57 I was in my twenties. And so I sat down and I did. A book that Imitated them shamelessly and Ronin. I did Gojima with with the samurai scenes, and I did Mobius with the science fiction scenes.

37:12 Now you discover Agi Bila and did him all over the place. What was that experience like for you in doing that? Did you find it energizing? Oh Any transition that big is a rebirth. Alright, I'm gonna ask you

37:30 A lot more about Bronin, which I have in my suitcase back at my hotel. Mm-hmm. But before we get there. I want to talk about Because I believe I saw this in the book as well. Like effectively, if you're boring yourself, or if you're bored, you're gonna bore your audience. Yeah. And like throw it out and start over. Yeah.

37:53 When do you know if something is working and I'll pull out an example of what seems like something that was working. And what was the name of the colourist? Is it Glennis? Is that how you say her name? Yeah, gluten is all over gluten is green. Yeah. Right. So during Some of the work on Daredevil would call you up and say how excited she was. Yes, working on it. Yeah.

38:14 That seems like a Signature of something. Working. Yeah. How do you tell if something is working or not working? Whether you want to get out of bed and do it or not. Yeah. I mean, it's not really a problem I have had in so long I can't remember.

38:29 Yeah. So if you look back at what you've ended up being happiest with. Or less happy with with hindsight twenty twenty.

38:39 This doesn't necessarily mean audience response, right? Not talking about market response. Working for you. I suppose what I'm looking for is just any thoughts for folks who have trouble throwing things away because they just have a high default level of excitement. Um so they get wedded to something and they're like I'm not gonna throw this away.

39:00 And they have trouble killing their darlings or murdering their darlings, right? Which is another line that you like. Yeah, I I love that line. Maybe some example of backing into this would be what are some examples of things that you have thrown out? How do you decide when it's time to cut your losses? Or get rid of something. It's like when it doesn't get me out of bed. It's that simple. It's that simple.

39:20 All right. This is my primary function on earth. Mm-hmm. If I'm not enjoying it. There's no reason to do it. Time to switch gears.

39:29 You know, Ronin. Seemed like Such And all in Yeah.

39:34 Olds. adventure on a lot of levels. Yeah. And I just This is lesson six in your book, The Dark Night Cometh, Smash Expectations, but here's where it starts.

39:47 And there's a quote from uh Rudy Kipling. from if, which is if you can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same. Yeah. Now here's the first part. That I wanted to quote and I won't do the whole thing, but there's nothing like a broken nose to clarify the mind. It's a creative experience Ronin was a fascinating, exhilarating exploration, and it goes on. So Why was Ronin? A broken nose.

40:11 Because I got I got um Excoriated for it. Like I had an angry audience. You know, people who wanted to be like Daredevil. Yep. They wanted more of the same from you. Yeah.

40:23 And After h initial high sales they dropped. And It was not the reception D C wanted. They were like you know playing.

40:32 funeral music and and it would go on And I'd had nothing but a run of successes before. Mm-hmm. How did you feel after that. I mean I've I'm not comparing my books to anything you've done. These are iconic pieces of of work that

40:47 you've produced, but I remember having my first two books succeed. Expectations for the third sky high. Initially does really well and then for whatever reason just doesn't meet expectations. And I took it so Incredibly personal. I had a really hard time with it. Yeah. And I'm just wondering End of the World. Yeah, what was it like for you? End of the world. End of the world. Yeah. Oh yeah. How long did it feel like the end of the world?

41:14 I sh I don't know. It was a w it was a wow. But the thing is is that Yeah. But useful. Because

41:22 I started examining it and said What didn't work. You know. You didn't connect. It's like You did something.

41:31 It made me go, Okay. Let's go for broke. Put something together. You know. Develop the theories.

41:40 Do something that'll work. And I ended up doing the most structured, ruthlessly structured thing I've ever done in my life. Dark night. Which is you know, I mean it's so structured, it's ridiculous. It breaks into

41:53 Sixteen page increments. Across you don't Four forty eight page books. And and each one has a three X structure. So it's a four X structure with

42:05 Three three ac structures. It's basically it's a trollogy. And was that That was a conclusion. or a direction you chose after analyzing

42:18 Running or some of the reasons. Why didn't Ronin work? What are what do you think are some of the reasons it didn't work? I think that it Drifted into surrealism.

42:29 And it was also It was a fantasy. And it was out of its time. Without question. You lick your wounds.

42:38 It's the end of the world for a little while, but then you do a postmortem. And And you come out of it, better your job. And you come out of it. And then moving into

42:50 The dark night returns. How are you thinking about Getting back in the ring. And working with this. You mentioned the structure as one.

43:00 aspect of it. Anything else that was important for you to keep in mind? Personally as you moved into Working on that particular project? I was into it. The complexity of it was Something I had never attempted before.

43:15 There's so many. Goddamn character in that thing. And they're all moving in eighteen directions at once. I did once I was into it.

43:25 I was into it. I wasn't thinking about it. Ronin or anything else any I mean it's a hell of a all consuming scope. Right. So it's like you have to keep your hand on the wheel attention. Yeah. Am I getting the

43:40 timeline right that you were working on The Dark Knight returns at the same time that Alan Moore is working on Watchmen or am I getting that timeline? It was a little bit four, but they they they overlapped. They overlapped. Yeah, they overlapped. I think they started affecting each other in solid way. In what types of ways? I don't know exactly. It's like I'm

44:02 Alan and I knew each other. We met while we were doing those two books. I had launched Dark night. And he was boiling over with watchmen.

44:13 And and and it's British stuff it's All over the place. And it was all part of this whole Well I don't know what you could call what we did to the superhero, but it was Reconstruction, deconstruction, you know, whatever it was.

44:27 And and and so uh His approach seemed more to really go at the underbelly of it. And mine was to reconstitute. the you know, in an uglier world to reconstitute the

44:40 Basic. Just a fit here, okay. I know why this came to mind for me. And to give credit again where credit's due, Frank Miller, American Genius, Sylan Thomas. Sitting about fifteen feet away.

44:53 Always always making amazing things happen. Make an ugly face. She's behaving for the time being. But got some great footage from Alan. Who basically said he heard these murmurs. about what you were working on and that it was amazing and he was like, Oh shit Basically. Better really up my game.

45:15 That's like The reason I wanted to bring this up is that I just find having at least some other player on the field who's really good forces you to improve. Oh, Alan made me so much better at so many things because When I came back to Daredevil, for instance. It was like

45:34 All of a sudden it was like, Oh my God, I'm just writing. And there's Alan Moore out there now. And all of a sudden I was just trying so much. You know. Trying so hard to be a writer.

45:47 He also brought back Aura. Brought back horror. Yeah. There hadn't been any horror comics for for generations. What makes Alan interesting to you?

45:56 Just take a sidebar on that. Okay. He's the smartest fan there ever was. The smartest fan. Yeah. What does that mean? Inside all of that, he is a guy who grew up on economics. But he's just so damn smart.

46:10 That he's able to take The stuff of his childhood joy. And to take it into down into places that nobody's ever dreamt of going for. And transform. Anything he's ever done, he's transformed. Utterly.

46:23 I mean he the first Time he sat down to write swamp thing. He changed the entire Precept. Of the character.

46:32 That's something a lot of people miss. It had always been this guy who Fell into the muck and Get transformed into a swamp guy? In his very first issue of Swamp Thing.

46:44 Alan transformed him into a collection. Um Swamp Weeds. That used this human as a model. To construct new body for itself.

46:56 There was no human in there at all. And then he did first. First time it bat first time I think I ever saw his name. It was something we should.

47:11 Okay. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. Many of you know how deeply I love Japan and its culture of unwavering dedication to craft, refinement, commitment to continuous improvement. Well why do I bring this all up? Well, the same focus On improving one thing. Over the span of years is found in today's sponsor, AG One.

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48:19 That's drink A G one. dot com slash Tim. I promised I would bring back

48:28 Robert at some point. Sure. And feel free if if If there's anything you'd like to dive into that I'm bouncering around and and not hitting, let me know. But You described Robert is as an angel of sorts.

48:41 Why is that? Robert Rodriguez. Well, for one thing is he's To be around him, you're around him. A man of constant goodwill.

48:49 And there's Generous energy. He's very generous. He He just quick. Sorry to interrupt, but people might find this funny. When I moved to Austin in two thousand seventeen.

49:01 The very first person I had over for dinner at my house, and I was very excited about it was Robert, who I'd known for a while. invited him over, it was on his way, and then I realized wait a second, I have no plates and I have no silverware. So he brought over two plates from his house, plus silverware. Which I still have to this day. So that's that's Robert. That's Robert. He's like, Keep the plates in the silverware, I think you're gonna need it next time. Oh my god. So Frank, you were mentioning Robert's generous spirit. And I wanted to underscore something that I only learn

49:36 After watching The documentary, which is that Rodriguez As I understand it, quit the director's guild. So that you could receive co director credit. I had no idea. Mm-hmm.

49:50 That seems wild. Yeah. Well, can you describe what happened on that day? No, you just told me you just did it. You said that.

50:00 They said you didn't have the uh What is the word for it? It wasn't credentialing. Some along those lines. Just grinned and said, So I quiz. Because he didn't want anything to stand in the way of us just

50:13 moving ahead and knew that I needed the authority. On the set because They were his people. And everybody there they were so loyal to you. that he need to be able to bequeath that to me to to to her

50:27 But things to really work the way. Both of us need them too. What was it like working on that? Film with Robert, how did you divide or mesh your duties?

50:39 At one point. Somebody In production. Made this ridiculous poster.

50:49 As a two headed beast. Because We were working right on top of each other. The all time. There was an another point where

50:59 We were shooting orders right past each other. Although we're almost always saying the same thing. But there's one point where we weren't saying exactly the same thing. And there was Brittany Murphy. In in the middle of

51:12 One of the one of the actors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And she uh She you she there she was in a as a scantily clad barmaid. And she just Tossed up her I think she tossed her tray in the air and says There's show up.

51:30 But generally it was just It was just a dream. After a while. They to know Which one to go to?

51:39 For which kind of problem. The actors did. Yeah. Oh yeah. I mean it's and and so did production. So would they cut what were those different types of problems? I'm so cute. Certainly anything to do with really The mechanics of making the movie was Robert Robert.

51:55 Right. You know, um, but when it came to the internal workings of the characters, the motivations of the characters the histories, the the the the uh And or if they wanted to try something out. I could fairly quickly tell them whether it was in character or not. And then we would often just get together the two of us.

52:13 Go over a bunch of stuff. And There were any number of cases where Robert would Come to me and say, I need new shot.

52:22 I need to scene what he said he said. I need something new here, Frank. It's gotta be quick, it's gotta be cheap, and it's gotta be brilliant. And we just sat down with a sheet of paper. Maybe some of the most thumb I ever had.

52:38 Work it's so damn fast, and you know. And knowing Robert, having spent a good amount of time with him, we both live in Austin. I can see both of you working together. Yeah. It's very easy for me to see. Yeah. Yeah. And uh I encourage people to listen to my episodes I've done with Robert, start with the first one about his creative process in bio, but He used to draw comics, right? He drew comics. He's very unorthodox. He doesn't

53:06 Mm-hmm. And I don't know if he did this on set. For Cincinnati, but he'll often have actors painting. He'll be playing guitar. That was so important. Yeah. Yeah, he always wanted to keep the creator juices flowing. Do you know there was one time when when they

53:24 He rented out a hall in Austin. Bruce Willis and his band play. Oh, really? Yeah. So there's Bruce Willis up there. You know, pounding it out like you're doing a string steam. Keep the keep the creative juices flowing. And he really walks the talk and also I may be stating the obvious for people, but when I look at say

53:49 Sin city as you created it here. It's so inherently cinematic and directorial in terms of Angles. Framing. I've always felt that way, even looking at say storyboards. I'm like, Okay, well

54:04 I mean there's the if not the same, certainly. I mean, but there are there's a lot that rhymes. And so when I'm looking at these innovations with say Whether it's back in the day with Jack Kirby. We're looking at some of the Japanese influences and how they capture motion differently. It makes me think of innovations in film at the same time where you think of like a Kurosawa.

54:26 doing like a Rashimon and and inserting multiple perspectives. And you're like, okay, I mean the You're solving a lot of the same problems and exercising seemingly a lot of the same creative muscles. Yeah. Well and and That's the way media works, though. It's the way our terms work. It's funny'cause it's like you know so many people strive so hard to

54:49 I guess if they work in a vacuum. And no one does. And the influence is right. Constant. Inexorable.

54:58 That's kind of the beauty of the Beast really. Yeah. I mean occasionally this one piercing personal. Come through.

55:07 But even Hitchcock came from somewhere. You can even ro c you know, cut back to what he sprung from. Or wells. Whatever. And even those two were

55:19 In pretty tight competition. And did a lot of the same tracks. So it's it's like you know. It's all a big mishmush. outs of the films you've been involved with. What are some of your favorite films, whether they are Scripted documentary or otherwise.

55:37 I'm a big fan of old black and white. It's no secret. Yeah. But that's not just the all of I can give you chapter in person, film nois, but That's all over the book and everywhere else.

55:48 An absolute masterpiece like Jane Mutiny comes to mind. I'm not familiar with it. What is the K mutiny? A mutant he's a World War Two Sorry featuring.

55:59 An absolutely brilliant. I'm free back. Oh. Exactly the opposite of the kind of character you'd expect him to play. He plays it almost Richard Nixonian

56:10 figure of a World War Two Destroyer, minesweeper, pilot. Who is completely Paranoid. Fred McMurray plays a character you would never expect him to play. This is not my three sons. This is

56:23 This Frederick Murray is a very serious You're playing it. Playing a uh military Lawyer. And it's a study in paranoia on the I sees.

56:33 what appeals to you about the movie? Or would you just get swept up in it? Is it that these actors are doing what Seems diametrically opposed to what people associate them with. Is it something I just love high drama. And I often do love to see an actor like Bogard. Play a character who

56:52 You don't expect. Malty Falcon. Type casting. For the rest of his career. Before that he played many, many roles.

57:02 Which were often Shifty nasty little man. And uh he played a paranoid killer. Once in an adaptation, I believe, of a James Evan Cain novel. And you know, it's I I love to see the

57:16 Actors when they Aren't trapped by the audience's expectations. The things that Robert Mitch was capable of. He was pretty extraordinary.

57:28 The movies that w that really Or discovering. What they could do. And we're finding them. You could look at it

57:37 Grapes of wrath. That movie is haunting for what it is. But it's doing so in such a compelling way. Eating okay.

57:47 Henry Fonday is extraordinary in that movie. And also I just like yes. In the hands of a Ray Director. That's why I do keep getting back in shot. I love falling back into one of his old movies.

58:00 I could la watch Rebecca, I swear, every night. I've never seen it. So it's got to be on my Oh, it is so good. To watch. It is one of the most romantic movies you'll ever see. And it's uh occasionally very spooky. It's a day movie.

58:14 Done. Thanks for doing my homework for me. artists or art forms have influenced the work that you do outside of comics themselves. Mm movies. Oh. Yeah, lots of books, I've read.

58:31 You know, yeah. What types of books. When I grew up reading Mickey Spelling novels. And From that all the other Crime stuff.

58:41 And somewhere along the line I fell in love with like ancient history. And yeah, that's where I got three hundred and all of that. The history is just it's endless. Well, it's like everywhere you turn, there's more and more to get. It's very bad.

58:56 Oh, when I was a kid I watched a lot of T V but I don't know. Yeah. Let's come back to three hundred and Your other Adventures.

59:06 In uh Hollywood. What have you learned? Because I asked this selfishly. When I work on my stuff, I'm a control freak. Complete control freak.

59:16 And A lot of my friends are control freaks and I've just seen it Number of different train wrecks. When Hollywood and the structures in Hollywood collide with

59:28 A creative who has story or something that they view as their baby. I've just seen a lot of messes and I'm wondering what you have learned. About working in entertainment or Hollywood. Oh, well I've got one overwriting thing. Okay.

59:44 I mean More important emails. Yeah. Yeah, the right people. It's like When I've worked with the right people experiences have been wonderful, the results have been wonderful.

59:54 How do you know for you who the right people are? 'Cause there's so many slick folks in LA. No offense to anyone in LA. I know. But man, do you get told what you want to hear? Uh-huh. And I'd love to know how you identify Having

1:00:09 Spent some time in the transition. I don't know, man. All I can tell you is that is that I've been Exceedingly lucky once. I've been Unspeakably.

1:00:21 Lucky the other time. I was exceeding lucky was that. Because in his case it was He was taking control. He was gonna do it. Okay.

1:00:32 And you did a brilliant job. In in the case of Robert Rodriguez. That was happening because It was the adventure for life said a lifetime.

1:00:44 When it's been more distant than that. It's been Bye Bye Baby. More. You know, it's been it's been the same thing. That it just happens. And it's something I did like, you know.

1:00:54 If it's something that I didn't you know, Marvel or C comic that Gets adapted. that I end up seeing pieces of what I did mixed in with Things that feel like they came out of a dirty hering movie. Mixed with things that came out of Scooby Doo and it's it all gets a little

1:01:11 You know, less exciting. Let's just say you created a masterpiece. in the next twelve months that Everyone in Hollywood's fighting over How do you make it Some of the important decisions about who to work with. Do you call Robin and you're like, hey, what do you think about these people? Do you call Zach Snyder and ask him the same question?

1:01:32 The answer's right across the room. I mean Celine Thomas runs my company and she really knows what she's doing. And before I really hear about anything, she already knows all these people and what they're doing and everything. I wouldn't even call it a hire. It's a it's a partnership. Yeah. All roads lead to Selen. She's bowing in the background.

1:01:57 She's waving us away. I wanna ask about alcohol. What is your relationship to alcohol? What has it done? For or against you. Oh, that's I wouldn't call it an easy question, but it's a simple enough one.

1:02:14 Especially the way you phrased it. Simple answer. No against me. A lot. For me not.

1:02:22 Not that. It's taken a long time to come to that conclusion. It's a A big old aspect of my life. It's a

1:02:30 Okay. Good. Genetic conditions. that I allow to get out of control. I would say I did use it to disinhibit me. And probably work.

1:02:40 Very, very productively. Because of it. And did stuff that Was he inspired, occasionally reckless? But

1:02:49 The deleterious effects and the Ways it's affected other parts of my life. Nah, that hasn't done me a goddamn bit of good. I was coerced to stop. I wish I wish.

1:03:03 Silen. And others. Decided I was gonna die. And arrange for me to be put in a place and watched. And you know the

1:03:12 Time had to pass. You know, medicines given and that sort of thing. Takes a while. I will tell you this in all sincerity. This is not pop string bit. For either one of you.

1:03:26 I'm having that time in my life. In that respect. I mean creatively it's just I I'm now I'm going like Okay, now I can get serious. Okay. You know, it's like For one thing is what happens when you get off.

1:03:40 The sauce. I imagine any addictions like this. You don't realize how much anger That I'm Bob.

1:03:49 And how What you thought was fuel. I mean, I thought I was fueled by all this. You know, there's kinda like Fire!

1:04:01 Oh, it doesn't feel you. It doesn't feel like. It's like saying Well it's great to have my stomach feel this way when you're constipated. It's a lot better to be focused on moving.

1:04:13 Clarity is quite lovely. So did the Getting off of alcohol in and of itself dissipates The fire. Or the

1:04:24 Anger or Did the getting sober Allow you to better deal with that in some way. How do you

1:04:34 Understand. When and where it's appropriate. Plenty to be angry about. But it's not this free floating, am I mad at myself? Am I mad at the world?

1:04:48 What advice would you give to A Dedicated novice who's looking to get into comics. And look, you can get into drinking. Wait where should they what's your favorite cocktail? Uh no, comics. Yeah.

1:05:07 And they're they're a student of the crack, they're obsessed, they're dedicated. They have the raw ingredients that maybe Neil saw in you. Mm-hmm. What advice would you give to them? Mm.

1:05:20 It's what I said in the book, which is story, story, story. First, think of it as one crap. T. Think Writing and drawing is one thing.

1:05:31 And it will become clear what it is. But beyond that. It's Cartooning is making things very complicated. And making them clear.

1:05:39 Simple. That's where your mind should be going more than anywhere else. At this stage. Complication is not your friend. The uh convey information. Then learn learn that I mean pick up

1:05:51 Scott McCloud's book on understanding comics, for instance. And see how he breaks down. How come it work? At the same time.

1:06:03 Pick up Sid Field's book on screen. Bye. Get a good sense for a simple approach to react storytelling. Exactly. Yeah.

1:06:13 You'll use it for a year or two and then you know, and then you won't be using it anymore. But it gets you somewhere. Draw. How do you learn how to draw? I think this is in the book, but Neil Adams Telling you to go out and buy some toy cars so you can learn how to draw cars correctly. That was great advice. Great advice.

1:06:31 Right. What great advice. So what a simple solve. What a simple solution. How does someone Learn to draw like humans. Humans are the big problem. You know.

1:06:43 And Oh man, every dirty trick there is. I mean I can give you Names of some books. Yeah, that'd be great. Okay. D UK. Um George Bridgman.

1:06:55 George Bridgman. Yeah, yeah. Okay. There's no E in it. En Bridgement.

1:07:01 There is an open George. And it's the complete guide to drawing from life. It's only about the figure. Why do you like that book? There's so many books on drawing. Why do you like this one? This one's good for uh Because he's an art of cartoonist. He treats the body like a machine, so it's easier to understand.

1:07:18 You do get the gesture, but you'll have to bring that yourself anyway. Stuff's completely non photographic. It's somewhere between The thinking of Michelangelo and the thinking of a Caliboc Artist. Mm-hmm.

1:07:31 That's cool. Yeah. So that's the non photographic that seems critical here. Hey, you know, there is another person people like a lot named Andrew Loomis. Andrew Loomis? Yeah. It's L.

1:07:44 O O M I S I favor him less. 'Cause his voice his work as a m sleeker More Um

1:07:55 Sleep your smoother look. And I I favor them more. Mechanical. Much joy. No, but but usually any kind of uh spiring couple of writers have both those books on the shelf.

1:08:07 How did you learn Perspective. Structures. How did you learn how to Work with

1:08:16 Perspective. Trick to perspective. Did you realize that it is a trick? It's a c complete lie.

1:08:24 Perspective does not exist. I mean it's an invention by mathematics. So Do keep that in mind when you're about perspective. So it's a device that you apply to a drawing. And uh

1:08:39 But you know that when you look at Down this room that the lines seem to converge and so on. So what you do is you rough out the basic shape of what you think something is. And then you converge a couple of those lines. They hit it a point.

1:08:56 And that becomes the horizontal. And you can keep your vertical straight up or you can give it a You know right. Upper or lower kilt, and so on. There are books of perspective too. I just don't know the names of.

1:09:09 But how did you d develop your abilities with perspective? Daddy's a comic book artists. Yeah. And you know, I have to say, and uh hopefully this doesn't sound strange, but looking at This gigantic

1:09:22 Yeah. Looking at, for instance You know, this is one of many, many different pages that I captured. Just to revisit. But when I look at some of these, I'll show the this is the one I showed before. I'll show it again. But

1:09:37 No, yeah. This one here. See look at this two page spread. And I'll describe it for folks, but these are Really stark.

1:09:47 Very Almost inverse color palettes, but although they're black and white. Of a dancer. And

1:09:56 The Elegant minimalism. And some of the line work in this book makes me think of certain really old school illustrators like Lion Decker. And it's just

1:10:12 There's a like an archetypal energy to this type of work. And I remember in the documentary To invoke Jim Lee's name again. He was talking about I don't know if it was Sin City or your work in general or you, but he said and then I could try A B or C and then I'm sure that Frank would tell me I'm using too many lines. It was something like that.

1:10:35 I give the hard time, you know. I can't do what he does or make fun of it. Yeah. So I recall collecting People should check out Jim Lee's penciling too. I mean, back in the day I collected when he was working on the X-Men and stuff. I mean, just just looking at the anatomical work he did with like Colossus and stuff. Jesus Christ amazing. Amazing. This seems to access something different and I'm I'm wondering how you developed The uh

1:11:04 economy of sort of elegant line use and use of negative space, like this use of black and white, because part of the reason I asked about the perspective is I noticed Which is something you can only really notice in something that's large format. And produce this way is All of the perspective lines that have been erased. There's a million perspective lines that have been erased.

1:11:27 Yeah. In this. And but the thing is that makes you feel the Exactly. And then then you have something Like Like this here.

1:11:37 Yeah, yeah. Right, and this Oh, if you can see this one I'm hitting with my knee. Now we see how we got those arms. where you s your mind is creating all the perspective you need to make sense of this as a three-dimensional

1:11:53 experience in your brain. But It looks like Probably forty fifty, sixty lines of perspective have all been erased.

1:12:02 How did you develop this style? I remember one time I was talking with uh Oh, he's early on in Sin City. And I was talking with um Dick Gardano.

1:12:15 I know the name. Yeah, he was he was he was a accountable cardist for a long time. Uh mostly known known as Associative new apps. And he was looking at the early Zin City stuff.

1:12:29 And you notice the early Sin City work has much more line work in it than I just don't he said. He was he was like the best teacher in comics. Okay. He was I mean he's a he was a good artist and everything, but He was a great editor. He mentor Klaus Janssen, for instance, and and and was and was

1:12:47 A terrific influence over a lot of people. You said Frank? Real New York Italian. All the way to this guy. Is it Frank?

1:12:57 I'm looking at this and see what are you doing? And he said. And I'm thinking. About some of the old guys. Yeah, I'm saying.

1:13:10 There was this old guy and he aims on my camera right now. And he was doing stuff kinda like yours, only w eventually he just started laying in all the black areas first. Putting lines in later. And he found I didn't need so many lines. That's interesting. I went home.

1:13:30 And the real look is in J Lidborn. Mm. Because once the black was down it went Hey. I'm hal I'm more than halfway up. I'm there, you know, I'll just add a few little things here.

1:13:45 And that was when the that was when N I've worked that way ever since. On every day. And At what point did you also, it seems like, innovate with a

1:13:57 Because I understand kind of start to finish first to last page batch processing, where instead of doing the penciling The lettering The inking, the colouring. On a per page basis. You're basically doing the penciling for

1:14:12 The entire books. Yeah, which in City as well. That was in City as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's just so mind blowing. Like it I it seems to me I guess in retrospect that that makes so much sense to do it the way that you did it. Do all the tissue layouts.

1:14:28 Trace them all off into pencil drawings. Then To all the panel orders. You don't want to be around me on those days. And then lay all the flat black areas.

1:14:39 And it what this w did was it made it more fun every step of the way. And it sped the whole thing up like crazy. And it made the work so much. Better was idiotic. By the end of it, the line work was so spontaneous.

1:14:55 Yeah. What is that first step that you mentioned with tissue? No, go well, that's where I solve the basic compensational And drawing issues on a separate piece of tissue. Which is just a night.

1:15:08 It's um. You know, it's not really a t issue, it's stronger than that. It's a type of drawing paper, but it's nearly transparent. I Please.

1:15:18 That marker rough. My drawing board is a light table. And I put my the actual Piece of Bristol board. On top of.

1:15:27 That And You know, trace that off. So that I can move things around, I can change the size, I can Replace things, and so on.

1:15:39 So that was also done on Sin City. That's wild. So a lot of innovation happened on Cincinnati. Transformative piece worse. Why did so much coalesce? During Sin City in that way.

1:15:54 Well Therein lies a tale. I love tails. Well it's no it's it's it's uh Because everything was happening. I had

1:16:05 broken away from the major publishers. was working with the then young Dark Horse comics. And we tested the waters with each other with the Martha Washington series. Yeah with hard boiled. And I decided I was gonna take my baby there.

1:16:22 And so I just decide Okay. It's time to reinvent the wheel. I'm gonna apply the stuff that I've been told. Yeah.

1:16:31 As I said to Mike Richardson. I said look. We've done two science fiction series. Yeah, I know. Everything is superheroes to science fiction.

1:16:43 I want to do a crime comic and in black and white. And he didn't flinch. So we were you know, we were rolling with that. So was it the ability to take that creative leap? That seems like been building inside you for a very long time. Yeah, yeah. Is that the kind of creative unlock that then led to these various innovations?

1:17:06 Is that the way you that you would think about it or was it Well one thing does lead to another, but most of creative work. Problem solver. It's not. God is speaking to me. It's you know how do I how do I get that nose to look right?

1:17:21 And in this case is It was how to get the look I'm after. As efficiently as possible. I won't show it again, but I can follow it up on the screen as as B roll, but that right hand page in particular of that female figure. Oh yeah, yeah and the

1:17:39 Black. kind of left portion of the torso, which is framed with black lining. And the right side From our perspective, framed with the white, I mean, just the economy, the amount of meaning that is transmitted with such a relatively Small amount of

1:17:58 Ink. I know it's in some cases a lot of the background. Yeah. It's a lot of ink. I I know. It's the but in terms of line work that is sort of Mm-hmm. The lattice work of the perceptions just so incredible. In the early pages. In Cin City there was a lot of line work underneath all that. Toward again. It was clicking along. Just that was what it was. Gonna be from bird.

1:18:21 Also something that You know, it comes to mind, at least for me in the In the Japanese way of doing things. And there's a lot of variability, of course, among Japanese artists and so on, but

1:18:34 It's very interesting how they apply detail, right? You might see a ton of detail in a small portion of a panel and then very little on the rest. You might see that right. Or you might see a page. It's like the more IMari approach. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And then you might have a page Where It's very h fast paced. The line works pretty sparse, and then there's one panel that has a lot of detail. And

1:19:01 The beauty and this comes also up in understanding comics with McLeod is how much work the brain does really effortlessly between the panels. Well it's we all it's also true where McCloud was applying. Oh blind McClure. 'Cause you know,'cause there's there's a lot of McClure thinking in McLeod.

1:19:22 I've been loving the book. So thank you for sending me an early copy. Celine. And I can't wait until I can actually export all my highlights because there's so many highlights that I put into it. And what I want to

1:19:37 also emphasized for folks, I really believe this is that If you want to be good at anything Study people who are excellent. at something. It does not have to be the same thing you are hoping to pursue. Right. Like if you study Jiro Dreams of Sushi or something like that.

1:19:56 in an effort to become better at X. And Aim for the top of your field that seems totally disparate, there's still so many lessons you can take. And if humans are

1:20:08 story making machines and that we often create meaning almost always from stories. Then studying Your work. Within the realm of comics and film. Even if someone is not involved explicitly in comics or film, the lessons can still be applied.

1:20:26 And I'll be very curious and excited to see how people in Industries And areas that may not

1:20:38 Can't even be guessed at this point. We'll implement. Some of the life lessons. From the book. I'll be very curious to see. Be very fun. You know, I I have to also mention

1:20:48 And I've wanted you to pronounce this name for me. Well. Never thought I would meet you, but well since I was a little kid. Uh The

1:20:56 Electra that you did that I wanna say it was a lot of watercolor. Artwork Bill. How do you say his last name? Sinkovich. Sink? Shinkovich. No. Sim. Kevin.

1:21:11 Okay. Shinkovich. Okay. Exactly. Think Russian. Pretend you're Russian. Pretend you're Russian. That is a beautiful that is a beautiful piece of work. Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Amazing.

1:21:26 And I did it was a Berserf. Experience. Tell me, because that's such a time. Yeah, such time, a good time. We were like two twelve year olds just making a crazy comic. Yeah. What was the experience like and

1:21:43 Why did you work well together? Maybe that's worth digging into a little bit. We liked each other a lot. Okay. Great starting point. Should it was one of those times that happened That y you know, you live for in that in that Comics have been very restrictive for a very long time. Things like Dark Knight had started busting things open.

1:22:03 You know, Botchman was out and so on. Bill had gone from being the Guy who draws like Neil Adams. To be more and more There's you know the guy who's pulling in Ralph Steadman and doing all this

1:22:17 Stop. And really becoming his own man. He had just worked for Dallin Moore. He was looking for a much bluoser kind of arrangement, you know. Zounds are very dominating.

1:22:30 Right or Dominat in the sense that he has an idea of the one panel. Um I mean he's a clockmaker when he writes the story. You know, Watchman plays off that constantly. The uh And Bill is a is bucking Bronco.

1:22:47 So when Bill and I got together, it was They just opened Epic Comics at Marvel. Back when Marvel was actually trying to. Loosen up a little bit. Before

1:22:59 became Marvel again. You know, and and it's easy for people to forget. I mean Marvel went through some very hard times. Yeah. The technology caught up sufficiently to end up with Marvel Studios and so on. But no, I'm talking about when when Marvel was really trying to

1:23:15 Bring in the European influences and stuff like that. It was it was a quite an exciting time. Archie Goodwin was running a fascinating division there. I came up with a mini series supposed to be four issues of Electra. For Marvel Comics. And Marvel couldn't when they saw what it was the script was, they went

1:23:35 This can't be part of Marvel Comics. This is just like too goddamn weird. And so it bumped over to the epic division. Can I give them credit, they didn't just say we won't do it. Then it went from four issues to

1:23:50 Eight issues, you know, never where it wasn't. The top blue off the I mean it the lady flew off. The pot that was on the stove. How did you give Bill.

1:24:03 Enough rain as a bucking Bronco. Yeah. You didn't. I wrote full script. Okay. He just drew everything. Fucking kidding. I had to pull the whole thing back. Can you explain what full script means?

1:24:15 Well full script is like a screenplay. It is, right? Yeah. It only a little stricter because he tells what is each panel number is and exactly what goes in it and what the captions are. So you would send that to Bill and you'd be like Thanks. Appreciate the effort. But just what would come back would be

1:24:33 Much more abstract and much more daring. Cool, but it wouldn't break the clock. It would still work. It did not say I wouldn't like send him an exploding tank and get back a bunch of tomatoes. Rolling down the street. No.

1:24:48 But it required reinterpretation of my script. And I welcomed it though. It sounds fun. It sounds fun. I saw brilliance was happening. That sounds like a lot of fun. And it's just because of that, though the excitement grew. And I kept expanding the story. 'Cause all these unexpected elements that he throw in.

1:25:05 I wanna turn them into characters and stop. And luckily Archie Goodwin was along for the ride and you know It was an absolute gas. I love that book. Oh, I mean, I still have it. I st literally still have it on Long Island. Let me ask you a question. It may go no this may be a dead end of a question, but I'm gonna ask you anyway.

1:25:25 This is a question I often ask. as we start to kinda wind towards landing the plane here. Yeah. If you had a billboard on which you could put Anything non commercial, right?

1:25:38 metaphorically to get a message or something in front of billions of people could be Statement, a quote. A word, an image. Combination. What might you put on that billboard?

1:25:52 Does anything come to mind? Whoa. A motto, a mantra, anything. I'm gonna get very broad on this. Okay. It's just say ask every question. Ask every question. What does that mean to you?

1:26:06 We live in a time of silence. People are leaving things unquestioned, unspoken. And and and a good bit, uh It's not a good it's not a good line. I can't come up with a good one, James.

1:26:22 I think asking every question's pretty good. But we can take a couple of s bites at the apple if you like. Yeah. How about just challenge? Challenge. Yeah. Okay, what does that mean to you?

1:26:35 Sure. When you. Are confronted with things that Everybody says.

1:26:43 Okay. Challenge, push the wall, defy the code. If everybody says, Do X.

1:26:53 Everybody says you must do why. At least at least say. Yeah. Why? Why's a pretty good one, too. Wanna go with that?

1:27:01 Why is a good one. I guess they go together. Both of them go together. Why? Okay. With the question mark. Yeah.

1:27:08 Why? Question mark. Ask. Where's the camera? There it is. Or why's it gotta be that way? Yeah, why's it gotta be that way? They all converge. Sort of in the same theme. Pathological conformity.

1:27:25 Yes. Yes, often subconscious too. Pathological conformity. Yeah. Ask for why. Why does it have to be this way? Also with your own thinking. It applies everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah, everywhere.

1:27:39 Frank, thank you so much. It's great to see you. It's been a real pleasure, man. And everybody, you can find Frank on Instagram at Frank MillerOfficial. The website is Frank Miller Inc. INK dot com and You can now where's the camera? You can now pre order.

1:27:58 So absolutely check out Push the Wall, My Life, Writing, Drawing, and the Art of Storytelling. I've been reading it. I'm gonna finish it over the next couple of days. I've really been taking a lot of notes. I also took a bunch of notes from this conversation.

1:28:14 And we will have links to everything. That we talked about in the show notes. As per usual at Tim.blog slash Podcast. Frank Miller will be the only Frank Miller. If you search by name for guest, you will find this episode.

1:28:29 And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary to others, but also to yourself and ask. Why? Why? Why? Thanks for tuning in, everybody.

1:28:41 Uh Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bold Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kinda like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmas, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests, and these strange esoteric things end up in my field, and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash.

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