Make the office a destination, not just an obligation

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/3a2261026e92c14a

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If you come into it with a binary thinking, you're not gonna be able to make it work. And so I think that's part of the commitment of being in a co leadership model.
You are committed to having those tough conversations.
Elizabeth Brink is co-CEO of Gensler, the iconic architecture and design firm.
Nvidia's futuristic headquarters in California? Yep.
That was Gensler.
The entire block that houses Disney's New York City offices.
Also
Gensler. The surprisingly pleasant new terminal at that major airport
Very likely Gensler.
The company and its impressive footprint.
Алавтин.
Bigger and bigger challenges.
Challenges like climate change, who better than us to take on this huge challenge, which is the moral and business imperative of our lifetimes to solve climate change.
buildings of forty percent of all carbon created in the world.
I'm Jeff Berman, your host this week on the show, two impressive leaders from the architecture and design firm Gensler.
Elizabeth Brink is the co CEO of the company and leads its global team of nearly seven thousand people.
Andy Cohen, now co chair, was Gensler's previous co CEO.
He has spent more than four decades helping scale the company.
We talk about why they've doubled down on a collaborative leadership model designing for difficult generational shifts in the workforce and how smarter buildings
can combat climate change.

You gotta have incredible talent at every position. Like this gives a huge push. There are fires burning when you're going out. Can you believe it? Such an idiot. And then you go back to this is totally gonna be amazing.
There are so many easy way. So I have no idea what to do. Sorry, we made a mistake. But you have to time it right. Oops. Working out of a three bedroom apartment. We haven't made it. Just how you do it.
This
is masters of scale.
Elizabeth Andy, welcome to Masters of Scale. Good to be here. Thanks for having me.
Can we just start with
What is Gansler?
Gensler is a global architecture and design firm celebrating 60 years. This year, we have 57 offices around the world, more than 6,000 really creative, incredible professionals working across this platform to provide design and architecture for our clients.
And when you say design and architecture, I think I have an idea of what that is, but I've also seen examples of Gensworth's work that goes maybe beyond.
Can you just give us a sense of the scope of the work that Kensler does?
I mean, it's really a scale from designing a brand label for a wine bottle or a marketing campaign for a brand to something as large scale as designing cities and urban spaces, stadiums, airports.
workplaces, it really goes the whole gamut. And what makes Gensler different or what we really talk about is it's beyond just creating the spaces and places. What we're really focused on is our teams.
is creating the experience of the people in the spaces. So it's really about developing the human experience. And that's when you're saying it's so much more beyond just the building and the spaces. It is really thinking through what that experience of the people in those places is going to be.
Our vision is to create a better world through the power of design.
Last year we work in over a hundred countries, so we're really creating design influence around the globe. It's a unique position to be in than many other architectural firms that are just focused on one country or one practice. We're extremely diverse from a geography standpoint and from a practice standpoint.
Take us back if you would. You said Gensler's about sixty years old now. Where did it start? What's the origin of the company?
It really started with a vision that our Gensler had about
reinterpreting what it meant to be an architect.
in the workplace and creating workplaces that weren't just rolling out the same space for every client, but workplaces that really helped organizations achieve their business goals. So that's where it came from always very client oriented, really focused again on the experience of the people in those spaces and
transforming that industry, you know, Art Gensler is known as someone who completely transformed corporate interiors, then grew into architecture, into different types of projects, education projects, even sports projects.
Yeah, and art really started this, which was looking at it from the inside out.
Projects from the inside out, as most architects of the time we're looking at buildings from the outside in, are looked at it from a user experience, how people feel in a space, the emotions that come from people in a space. And that's very different than most other architects.
What has to happen practically, procedurally, that you're doing it differently from others who are looking from outside in as opposed to inside out? Yeah. I love that you asked that question. We always talk about the secret sauce and you know, it's as much about a mindset
Always thinking about the human experience first, bringing in different perspectives. The way we create our teams brings in a sort of multidisciplinary.
point of view, we look at our clients as true partners. We have a whole practice that focuses on understanding our clients' businesses so that we can truly understand what their needs are and solve not for just what they're saying the problem is, but what the underlying issues are that they want to drive forward.
Does it make it hard to hire? I mean, how are you building teams of people who who get against their way and want to work this way?
We call it a one firm firm culture. And it's one seamless
integrated organization around the world. And we really are looking for a diversity of talent, a diversity of ideas, because we believe innovation comes from diversity. Diversity of thinking, diversity of geographies, diversity of languages. We're a firm of close to 7,000 people now. And the only way you can lead an entrepreneurial culture like that
That is by having people from lots of different backgrounds and different places with different perspectives.
It's interesting that you ask if that makes it harder to hire. I actually think it's a key differentiator at this point. When we do hire, may want to be a part of it because it is so different from what you see at some other design firms, which are maybe a lot
top down or siloed, where you only get to work on the types of projects that you've always worked on. There's a lot of opportunity to spread your wings at Gensler. And people really respond to that when they think about what they want to have in their career.
This is my forty fifth year with the firm.
I started when I was five years old, by the way. Very, very young man.
When I came to the firm.
We were probably less than close to a hundred people.
And now we're close to seven thousand people. So I had a very unique perspective on our firm, and it all started with us.
Elizabeth was talking about Art Gensler's entrepreneurial approach. And I had the opportunity to become head of the LA office in in the early 90s.
And then in two thousand and five, I became co
CEO with my partner Diane Hoskins of the firm.
We knew when art was stepping down, that there can only be one model that would work, and that's a co leadership model.
Okay. So a lot of companies
Don't like a co leadership model.
One back to pat, one butt to kick, right? Like accountability, et cetera. Why was co leadership the right answer for Gensler? Why is it?
Because we really believe that everyone has aces and spaces. Things you're great at and not so great at.
Doesn't sound like the first time you've used that line. I've used it a lot. In fact, in our firm, we have two leaders that are leading every office, every practice area. Throughout our firm, we believe so strongly in co leadership. Because if everyone has aces and spaces
When people come together with different aces, that's when the sparks fly. One plus one equals five. We get forty-eight hours in a day instead of twenty-four hours in a day to lead around the world.
We don't know any other type of leadership than co-leadership. It really has transformed our firm because we're able to bring forward the best ideas. For example, my partner and I, Diane.
We're very, very different leaders, but together we cover so much more ground than one leader. And that makes a huge difference to our people because my ace is the things that I'm great at may not be Diane's, and we don't always agree on things, but that tension and those edges that come together are what create even better innovation and better ideas that we're moving forward.
with so it really has become
Very embedded in our culture and throughout our firm.
As you pair people, whether it's those with you and your co CEO or the coheads of your Berlin office or whatever it might be.
Are you looking for they've already worked together and shown that they can work well together? Is there pattern matching from the past of where partnerships have worked and haven't worked? How are you figuring out who to empower jointly? It's hard enough to hire one good person, hire two good people and trust that they're gonna work well together feels like
Kind of a tough butt.
Yeah, I think collaboration is such a part of design and the design process. And so all of us as we've been developing our careers, we've had to be collaborative. That's just how great projects happen. It's in the culture in the design culture. So it's in all of our DNA.
There are some industries where that's not a part of the culture and where this type of model might be a little bit harder.
So building on that, when we do look at
Leaders and partnering leaders and figuring out how those Aces and Spaces are going to work. You know, a lot of these leaders have worked together before. We've gotten to see them on firmware initiatives or on task forces or on our management committee or working on projects together. And we have so much of that internally that we can
see where each of them shines and really understand where they're gonna be able to focus. If someone is incredibly externally focused and they have a partner who really understands how to develop people in the organization, that can often be a really, really great partnership. We do want people who push each other, but
What is really important for all of our leaders is that ability to communicate because that communication, that collaborative spirit, that mindset of building trust, that is
The foundation for all of it.
And that makes a ton of sense to me in so many ways. So what happens when there's this disagreement between co CEOs?
There's so much trust between us.
as a team, that we usually defer to one another. In other words, we both make our case on a discussion. And then invariably one of us will say, you know what, you take that one. I trust you. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I trust you. And let's get back together again and discuss this once we explore this possibility. So we're always deferring to one another.
I think the core to collaborative leadership is trust, trust and respect. For Diana and I've been together for close to twenty-five years.
Unbelievable trust. We can finish each other's sentences, yet as I said, we come from different places, different backgrounds, but we always coalesce together and always, always trust each other.
Is it just disagree and commit? It's a binary, right? It's A or B, it's one or two, zero or one, whatever. Like, is that what you have to do?
But at some point it is. You have to say, Listen, I feel
really strongly about this, and this is a priority for me. I will say also, Jordan and myself, who's my co-CEO, we often go to Andy or Diane. And this is what's wonderful about it. We have mentors here. We have others who are not so wrapped into the decision to be able to get
a different set of opinions and they will give really fantastic advice about how to navigate through the situation and often just another perspective that clicks it in for either one of us to say
Okay, yes, I can flex on this side of things and I understand that perspective. So it's just a process like any relationship where, you know, if you come into it with a binary thinking, you're not gonna be able to make it work. And so I think that's part of the commitment.
of being in a co-leadership model. You are committed to having those tough conversations.
For us, they're usually based so much on the core values of the firm and a deep understanding of those guiding principles, those core values. So
Usually we can really navigate around that. That's what I've found.
Still ahead, more with Andy and Elizabeth about how they design offices in which people actually want to spend time.
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Andy, when you joined Gensler, how big was the company, both the employees and revenue?
Roughly.
We had
A little over a hundred people at the time and the revenue around twenty million dollars a at that time.
And you're now about seven thousand people and
We just surpassing this magic number, which is two billion dollars. And that scale really gives us the ability to take on some of the world's greatest challenges, challenges like climate change. Who better than us to take on this huge challenge is which is the moral and business imperative of our lifetimes to solve climate change.
Well, design and buildings of forty percent of all carbon created in the world. So we have the ability to really use our technologies.
our strategies to really help through the building environment save a whole bunch of CO two and deal with climate change.
Concrete is obviously a massive driver of uh CO2 emissions. Is that an opportunity for Gensler as well? How are you approaching this at a
Unintended, and apologies for it. More concrete level.
I love the pun. Thank you for the courtesy laugh. I appreciate it. It's a really great opportunity area for us. You know, we've been doing a lot around materials and setting up new industry standards for materials and where we're moving next is in structural systems like concrete.
Like how do we really push the industry to move forward in setting different standards for how we use concrete for experimenting with um different types of concrete use?
Also, mass timber is another one that we're really leaning into. And how do we use those different kinds of structural systems? We have the scale to work very closely with incredible partners in the industry to identify those opportunities.
This is a global problem, not a local problem. So we're working as an example on materials, we're working with the largest concrete makers in the world, and they're coming up with different mixes that emit much less CO2 in the environment.
It strikes me also that I mean we're seeing
increased intensity of weather. We're seeing hurricanes at a scale and frequency we've never seen before, tornadoes, et cetera. That must present real design challenges and opportunities. How how are you approaching that as well, especially as we look out over the next decade where it's forecast to get much worse?
All of our clients are seeing this as well. And so it's really becoming one of their key priorities designing for resilience. Otherwise, you know, they're just setting themselves up for real challenges. So we're looking at, you know, not only fireproof materials.
Sighting, how do we site buildings in different areas so that they're more fireproof, for example. We're here in Los Angeles, obviously fires are a big thing that we're all thinking about right now.
especially coming out of the last year. And it's really as much about where do we put buildings, how do we design them so that they have clearance around them, we're using the right materials. And what's what's really incredible is that
Clients are really seeing this as a must have.
right now, not a nice to have or a could do. It is a core part of what they need to be solving for.
And now it costs too much not to be r sustainable and resilient. And they're really seeing that difference. And so finding the ways from very early on in the process to make those decisions, um, which costs a lot less if you're doing it early on the process.
Given the approach that you all take, given the scale, the range of work you do,
And the little bit of browsing that I did preparing for our conversation.
I don't think there's a Gensler style. There's nothing you can look and go, that's obviously a Gensler project.
Fair to say?
Yes, absolutely. Actually really great that you say that. When we're talking about scaling and across
the incredible geographies that we're in with the different types of clients, with the different types of industries. We have a huge number of incredible designers who do have their vision, their style, their way of approaching things. And some of them really do connect with certain clients.
It's just you're not gonna see that across all of Gensler. We call it a constellation of stars. We don't have one single star, but it really is that constellation. And so they're each shining really brightly in their own way. One of the things that we love is that we can give different designers with different visions that platform.
to be able to shine.
I think even when I was in design school, it was, you know, if you are just about a style, that's incredibly limiting. If you're about an approach and an outcome.
that's much more about opening up the aperture of design. And so we're about creating spaces that enrich the human experience. When we have a shared purpose, that's really what you start to see. And I hope when you're looking at the images, what you're seeing are people engaging in the spaces that's the core thread. Yeah.
That comes through a lot of the work rather than just a single style that you'd be able to note, but hopefully they're activated, people are engaged in the spaces, they're uplifting kind of spaces. So it's more the outcome of the spaces than just how they're looking.
Can you give us a story?
of a recent design challenge that Gensler took on and how
Do you kinda super serve your client on the project?
A great example I think is we are
Designing.
Projects for NVIDIA.
NVIDIA's the largest now market cap
And what's phenomenal about the process was
We were working with the CEO and he wanted to incorporate their AI techniques and latest software and hardware into the design. So we use those AI techniques to design the project from the inside out.
So we had teams around the world bringing ideas from around the world to the largest market cap firm in the world.
for their new headquarters and we're able to use these ideas from around the world as the innovation moving forward.
And how did Jensen and NVIDIA want you to use AI in that process?
In this case, he wanted the buildings to feel almost like uh and they were named after Star Trek, one building is called the Enterprise. And so the idea was to minimize walking distances, the buildings are built in a triangle. We came up with this idea of a triangle is the shortest walking distance.
With all the innovation labs in the center of the triangle. And that allowed for groups to meet very quickly and innovate very quickly and from building to building to get from one building to another. And then using AI.
The buildings in a triangle, well, the entire ceilings are in a triangle, skylights are in a triangle. We use uh the ability of AI to really track the sun in the sky with these skylights to bring natural light into the space and optimize the lighting within the space. That's just an example, one example of using their technology to design the space.
And then Elizabeth, how is AI now informing more of what you're doing after the video project? So a project like that, it opens up and unlocks the way a lot of people are thinking about things. So based on that project and a number of other projects, we've really developed an entire suite of tools so that we are able to use those tools on
all of our projects every day at a different scale. So we're doing AI enabled blocking and planning opportunities, AI enabled sustainability analysis. And even more so than that, some of what came out of that was understanding how people
are engaging in the space.
AI has been for us a revelation, as Elizabeth was saying.
Now we can visualize spaces more quickly.
We used to take us.
three months or six months. Now within a week we can have multiple ideas and take our clients and bring them right into the space.
Making the feel the emotion of being
actually in their finished space.
There's nothing better in an architect's world, a designer's world to
put a person right where they're going to be in the future. Or a client would ask us.
We design airports. What's the future of an the airport? What's the future of an entertainment center? What's the future of a sports arena? And we're able to show them the future. And you're using VR and AR to help with that as a part of it? VR and AR. I'm reading a book right now on the next pandemic.
Because th there's so much joy. Let's find yet more. One of the things that I was struck by in reading this book is the extent to which as we return to office, and you guys very much have an office culture.
Air refresh rates in offices is one critical protection against virus transmission. And so I'm curious, is that something you're thinking about proactively beyond the look of the space and the practical use of the space in terms of how people move and what have you.
Are you going all the way down that far? Is that part of how you're using AI to improve the work that you're doing?
We are definitely using AI and data in general to understand, particularly for our clients who have large scale portfolios, to understand how to better optimize their space. And that could be everything from
understanding daylight, you're talking about airflows. We're talking about overall portfolio usage and utilization, which spaces people are coming into. We are absolutely taking all that information and figuring out the ways to turn all of that data into intelligence. There are
Yeah.
Two major factors that we see in
that my friends who who lead teams have experienced in the last five years.
One is COVID and and a move to remote and hybrid work. And now it feels like more of a push to be back in office. Um and two is just generational differences in terms of what people want from in person versus remote or hybrid.
and how different generations want to use workspace.
Could you share a little bit about how those
two forces, both independently and collectively, are changing what space design looks and feels like and how you're approaching it.
Sure. I think
Coming out of Covid.
What we're finding through all our research is
You have to make the office a destination, not an obligation, a place that people wanna be.
Not that they have to be. And we're finding is that creating that sense of choice.
The idea that you can work anywhere in the office. The flexibility to be able to create different work settings. What we're doing is we're taking out rows and rows of deaths and we're creating way more collaboration space. Everyone really wants to collaborate a lot. So we're creating
Three person conference rooms, five-person conference rooms, living rooms with couches, so that people have that ability to work in those different work settings. Also with a hybrid nature. So there are usually in these spaces there's screens where you can have Zoom calls where there are people outside the office and inside the office.
But the entire nature of the workplace is radically changing. This has been the biggest revolution in workplace since the industrial revolution where work is changing radically. How people work is changing radically.
It's interesting because what we found too when you talk about generations is that it's actually the younger generations that want to be in the office even more. They see that they're learning much more when they're in the office.
They see that they're creating that social capital that's so important for career building. We saw that in our own offices. It was younger people who were coming in. It was our new hires who were really coming in and driving for us to be there. We use those data points to talk to different generations.
We also talk to them about what are they trying to achieve. It's really about what they're trying to achieve. There are some benefits to having flexibility and hybrid, but
creating culture and creating collaboration and learning. That's not one of the benefits. You know, you really have to get people together to be able to do that. And
What's also interesting is that a lot of the more senior leaders are seeing that now. They're seeing the repercussions of not having that deep culture, of not having people together. So there's that kind of shift.
But to Andy's point.
The whole point is that it has to be a space that works for people, that gives them something. There is no generation that wants to go into an office, go through that commute, just to sit at a desk that is just the same as what they could be doing at home. There has to be something more.
People don't want to just be sitting at home where they're so disconnected from their communities. We're seeing workplaces that really activate the neighborhoods around them. That's another key element. We call it, depending on which city you're in, the twenty minute city or the 15 minute city, the walkability of the neighborhood, that you could find everything there.
Those are the places people want to be in. And so workplace and city making.
Are really, really interconnected, that's part of the revolution we're seeing.
And it strikes me also, I mean, the loneliness crisis in America, obviously other places in the world, but acutely we're experiencing in America is in part
a consequence of this move away from a dedicated office space, particularly one that is in a fifteen or twenty minute city, amenity rich places to go hang out, have lunch, have a coffee, what have you.
How do you think about Gensler's role in law I mean, you are doing social engineering. I mean, I don't mean that in a with any negative connotation, but that is a practical effect of the work that you do. How do you think about your broader responsibility or the impact of your work on on the broader communities that you serve?
Yeah, I I love this line of thinking that we're going down actually in one of our workplace surveys. So
We do workplace surveys um almost every year and have really been able to track some key ideas. And one of our workplace surveys that came out one or two years into the pandemic, we were talking about making friends.
outside of your generation and connecting with people who are outside of your social group or of different race or age.
And found that sixty one percent
Um
people that we surveyed in this survey said that they made friends, built relationships with people who were outside of their their race, religion, age demographic at work.
Right, and so you realize just how important that is for people understanding.
the diversity around them for people just understanding that there are differences among people and that you can build relationships with people who are not in your individual bubble. So expand it out to the cities. And you know, people are meeting in plazas, in transit hubs,
in entertainment venues. So the more we can bring people together, the workplace is a particularly rich environment for that.
All of our research, all of our focus is shaping the future of cities. And that's going to be about sustainable cities. It's going to be about we mentioned the 20 minute city of making sure that we're designing the right neighborhoods, the right communities, connected cities, so important. So we think that the future of design is very much about cities, including
The idea that soon we're gonna have autonomous cars. And if we have autonomous cars.
The ability to take our city streets
Back for people.
CO two infested cars in the middle of our cities. We can create walkable cities again, vibrant cities, more landscaping and trees, more alfresco dining, more places to be together and come together.
And you all have
gone to a five day week in office. How'd you make that decision and have you had a lot of pushback on that call?
We've actually really spent a lot of time thinking about it. And it's really about
pushing forward to who we need to be for the future. So it was about being clear that
We are
open, we are in office, we expect our teams to be working together five days a week. We expect our leaders to be there with their teams five days a week, not working from home, but also being out with clients, also traveling, also being out in our cities. And I would say overall
It's gone really well. Did we lose some people who had specific family things that they really needed to, you know, take care of? Did we lose some people who moved pretty far away during COVID? Sure, of course.
Did we also get some people who are very excited to be able to be back in the office and to be connected? Yes. We need to be a collaborative organization. And so let's figure out how to make this happen, not getting stuck on the decision making, what numbers of days and are we checking boxes about people?
But again, really the why and why we need to do this for the future.
I mean, look, I mean I sound a hundred years old here, but I learned so much being in office, just sitting and watching how other people do what they do, and then maybe being able to walk and get a coffee with them and ask questions when when when this happened, when you know Scott Galloway also talks about like
How do you think you're gonna get promoted into the much bigger job if you're not building the social bonds and showing your bosses what you're doing? Yeah. And if people don't know you, if people don't haven't built that relationship with you, because as we started the conversation talking about trust and relationships, that's so much a part of what
being a leader in an organization is. And if people don't know you, they can't build the trust with you, they don't have those experiences, and you can't build those over Zoom.
I think it's also really interesting when you're talking about the different generations. All of our kids are back in school and they are there in person. College is
That did not work virtual for those kids. Right. And so you think about the generations, they actually really want to be connected. And so that's the generation that's coming into the workplace.
I think there's another residual that came out of this, and that is with our clients.
We were already work'cause we're a global firm. We have
You know, fifty five offices around the world. So before COVID, we were already on video conference calls before most other people are on. We were used to that medium, but now our clients are used to it. I was on a call this morning with Saudi Arabia, another call with London, you know, early in the morning, and then later in the night I'm on the phone with on a video call, Zoom call with
Tokyo, that ability to connect now has actually
helped us a great deal to be able to move forward with our clients and have instant connectivity around the world. I think it's made a huge difference for our practice.
What's one thing
Andy, that
People get wrong about design process.
People think that we go away into some black box and we design and we come back with the solution. And I think our best designs that we create.
Oh, we're interacting with our clients, listening to their vision, listening to their goals, and sharing ideas, sharing options with them. So we're getting their feedback so that at the end of the day, they feel like it's their design and we're showing them how to create it.
That's when we've been really successful.
And Elizabeth, what's a question that everyone who's undertaking a design process should ask?
the firm that they're contemplating using to help them with the project.
Well, I think the firm should definitely ask all the clients
What do you really want to get out of this? What are you really trying to achieve? What do you want for your people? What do you want for your business? Undertaking a design project is a huge opportunity, a huge lever for change, for transformation of any business. Every design firm should make sure that all of their clients
are utilizing that opportunity and really thinking bigger, clients should always take that moment to step back and say, what do we want to get out of this? Not just who's going to do it the most expedient way.
Yeah. I was part of designing a new office space for a company I was helping lead about ten years ago, and the founder had very specific ideas about what he wanted from the space. And
We put a little
couple of little hidden touches, almost Easter eggs, into the space that maybe only he, perhaps his wife as well, would know were for him, but they were there. And it was almost like a little wink.
And I'm curious if you have a favorite example or two of anything like that in design projects that you and Gensler worked on.
I would say one of my favorites is up in our recently completed San Francisco office. So the firm was founded in San Francisco by Art Gensler and his wife, Drew.
And so there's a storied history in the San Francisco office.
And so throughout that office, there are little snippets of
you know, photos of art and Drew from when they were much younger. But my favorite one is they have the address plaque from the very first
office location of M Arthur Gensler and Associates. And it's up there on the shelves with some other artifacts. And I know that's for so many of us coming in and every time we see it, it just feels like a real connection to where the firm started and to those founders.
The historical photos are great because some of them are hilarious, of course. But that address plate for me is just a real personal connection. And I see it every time I go up to that office.
Andy.
Building we completed about
fifteen years ago. It's called Two Thousand Anime of the Stars.
And it really is two buildings in one, so the building has a large aperture or hole in it.
Yeah.
And if you go across the street to the Century Plaza Hotel and you look across the street through the aperture
the perfect photograph is the Hollywood sign is perfectly framed in that aperture in the building. Oh this is And a lot of people don't know that, but that Hollywood sign, so I have a picture on my wall.
of the aperture or the hole in two thousand eight hundred stars and the Hollywood sign exactly right in the middle of that hole.
I have been in both of those buildings and I never knew that and I'm gonna check that out. Thank you both for being on Masters of Scale. Thank you. This is great.
Thanks again to Elizabeth Brink and Andy Cohen for joining us. It is inspiring to see how the team at Gensler uses a collaborative leadership model to unlock innovation and fuel growth. It's an important reminder of how powerful a well designed space can be.
for shaping our culture.
I'm Jeff Berman.
Thank you for listening.
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