Advice Line with Jane Wurwand of Dermalogica (December 2024)

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/3ac3982344ec1bb6


Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So this week on the How I Built This Advice line, we're bringing you an episode from the archives, and in this episode, I take calls with Jane Whirlwind. She's the co-founder of the global skin care brand, Dermalogica, and Jane gives amazing advice to three early stage entrepreneurs.
And talks about the importance of customer education for building a trusted brand. This episode first aired in December of 2024. It's a great one. I hope you enjoy it.
Hello and welcome to the advice line on how I built this lab.
I'm Guy Roz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show who will help me try to help you.
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Alright.
Let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Jane Worwin. She's the co-founder of the pioneering skincare brand Dermalogica. Jane, welcome back to how I built this.
Thank you so much, Guy. It's such a pleasure to be back here. I was one of your first and I'm thrilled to be on this.
Way back in twenty sixteen and um and for those of you who haven't heard that story,
Uh we will include a link in the episode description.
It's an amazing story. It essentially
Jane grew up in Scotland.
tragically lost your father at a very young age. And after that happen, I think about this all the time, Jane.
But your mom told you, I give this advice to people, she said

I want you to develop a skill so you never have to depend on a man. You can always be independent. Basically is what she said. And for you
you became a beautician.
Which eventually brought you to California in the early eighties. But I get it. I get it. Yes, my original
Diploma. You've got a great memory, guy. You've probably been swatting up. And yeah, I'm still working. I'm just you know, as I get older, it's good it's going, but I'm still working on it. So you you eventually get come to California. This is the early eighties, and you you opened you and your husband Raymond, you leased a space, small space, opened a skincare.
a a place to teach skincare classes and to do skincare and at the time, if I remember you d like people the skincare regimes was basically soap and water. Like people know that it's like everyone was yeah, eighties. It was big hair, big makeup, no skin care.
And your business was an education business. It wasn't even a skincare brand business, but of course over time you started to you know, people started to ask you what
you know, what kind of products they should use and and you realize that really there wasn't anything available. So you started to make them, you convinced a manufacturer to help you produce
Your products of scale. You called it Dermologica and and the rest is history. I mean, fast forward twenty fifteen
Uh, you and Raymond sold a majority stake of the business Unilever and thermal, a massive
Skincare brand. Everybody listening knows Termologic. It's an incredible story. Jane, before we bring on our callers, I want to ask you a couple questions.
About
the approach you took, right? Because you and you and Raymond were
You're really scrap. You had to be, right? When you were getting your first products to market. You didn't have any money. No. Um you convinced a manufacturer to to get a give you a chance.
With almost no money up front and and then you launched with like twenty seven products. Yeah, I know. All at once, right? I know. If someone asked me if they could do that, I would say no. We do yes, twenty seven. I mean that's my question. Would you take that same approach today? Like what what are your thoughts
about focusing on like one product doing that crushing that really well for a while versus just going all out with like twenty products uh from the get go.
Well we ha we really felt strongly we had to introduce that many products because skincare as we saw it was a regimen. And so we had to have more than one or two products. So that was deliberate and it also set us apart because you couldn't just grab one product and it would do everything. There was no miracle product. We had were
Basing it on education.
We had fourteen thousand dollars of self funding and we've never taken we never took outside funding all the way through to the acquisition. We'd never had we had no debt.
It's amazing.
Yeah. And so to do that we needed a selection of product, but focus is the number one
word I would use, focus, focus, focus. We didn't introduce makeup, we didn't introduce hair products, we didn't introduce nail products. Everyone told us diversify, spread your No.
Skincare, skincare, skincare. And I think niching is really important when you're a startup. Directing your energy and time and attention at one target market. You can expand once you secure that.
But start off in something that you feel strongly you've got a unique position in.
Chain, when you started Dermologica
totally different.
Landscape.
giant stores that are dedicated to obviously beauty. And there were there were some, but not not quite like today, the Sephora's and the you know companies like that. Um I mean on the one hand, it's a lot easier. The barrier to entry is lower. There are lots of co manufacturers, you don't need as much money to start
Um but on the other hand
It is it is just a m massive market, but to break into it is so challenging.
If you were to start
Dramologica today.
Right. What do you think you would have to do differently to to gain traction?
You know, it's really interesting. Uh
I would
Do the exactly the same as we did when we started. I would niche it with education.
It's a different environment, but people still
Want to hear expert advice.
And you know, even even the most entertaining ten year old on TikTok
Talking about aging, skincare is not that's entertainment. It's not that they might not have some good points, but the different thing is about the and it's but it is very different because the barrier to entry is easier.
Now you can set up your own channel in your kitchen if you wanted to, and plenty of people do.
However, that is not as solid a relationship as we had to build, which was literally word of mouth. You had to meet that person, you had to touch that person, you had to introduce your product to them. There was no internet, there was no cell phone.
A better, simpler time, Jane. Yeah, simpler time. And when you built it, that relationship was real. That comes first before the sale. I always say tell, don't sell. You're not ready to sell until I am ready to buy. And I the way I would be ready to buy as a consumer is I want to
want your product. I want to understand what it does. And then you've got to be able to build an emotion in me that says, Oh my gosh
I'm going to buy that, especially if you're in the prestige market, because it's not going to be an inexpensive purchase and it has to deliver on what you just
Promised, and we did that through education.
I mean essentially what you're saying, which is uh something I say
Often so people hearing this will be tired of it, is the fundamentals remain the same.
Yeah.
Yeah, the plumbing's different, but it's exactly the same stuff coming through it. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Uh and find out what is going on. Hello, caller. Welcome to the advice line here on how I built this year on with me and Jane Worwind. Um please introduce yourself, tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a tiny bit about your business.
Hi, um Guy and Jane. I'm Camille Hardy, originally from Pasadena, California.
Um, I'm now based in Leesburg, Virginia, where I founded Chunky Vegan.
And at Chunky Vegan, we're on a mission to redefine baby food with farm to table nutrient rich meals crafted for early stage eaters.
Awesome. Camille, thank you for calling in. I'm excited to talk to you. So tell me a little bit more about Chunky Vegan. It's baby food.
that you sell how and where.
Currently we're selling at farmers markets um pop up
shops, daycares and places like that.
Um, and it's direct to consumer.
Currently. And it's it's in a j like a glass jar or Yes. And it's refrigerated?
Yeah, so all of our food is farm fresh, so it's all plant based. We don't have any perver preservatives.
So it should be refrigerated if it and eaten within four days, and if not, you can freeze it for up to six months.
Okay, Camille, I'm assuming and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm gonna assume that
This business started because you became a parent.
It absolutely did start because it became apparent. And it also started because I when I moved from Pasadena to Virginia, the options.
Um in terms of healthy or clean eating weren't as available as they were. Um
In California, yeah.
Yeah, and so I had to be really creative, um, and very selective and I just really wasn't satisfied with what was available to feed my son. So I started to make uh the food for him myself.
n initially sourcing it from the grocery stores, but then as I
kinda learned like well where where are they sourcing this from and how's the food being treated. I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole and I gradually kind of
refined how I was sourcing certain foods for my son, and that's how
Well that's how it initially started.
Awesome. And what's your question for us today?
So the business has been we established the business last year, actually July of twenty twenty three, but we launched last month. And what I am finding, uh I'm just in a bit of a kind of a
A weird space.
A lot of the
other baby food brands
Um, they say they're all organic and you know, they're
clean packaged, um, but then they throw it in a pouch or plastic. So from end to end, what we offer, we're we're just very intentional about
The whole
process of how we deliver our product from the packaging the glass to the the ingredients we source.
to the way that we um
Combine those ingredients to make the nutrient density. And so how can we chunky vegan effectively scale up?
while maintaining the quality and the sustainability standards that set us apart.
Because a lot of advice we have been given was to
You know
Cut back on our
Either our packaging or
Scale back on these ingredients, but that degrades the quality of our product.
All right, lots to answer and lots to talk about. Um, Jane Wan I wanna bring you in first of all, do you have any questions for Camille before we get to her question?
I just pulled up your website.
Um first of all
I have to just tell you, where were you when I had a baby thirty years ago? I love everything about this. It's I think you're in exactly the sweet spot.
I also have to tell you your website looks great.
Thank you.
Really good. I like the brand identity and
But you've got low numbers on Instagram. I see two hundred and sixty seven on your Instagram. Now you've just started, so I understand that.
Do you feel comfortable on
on s you know, the social platforms and if you do, which ones are you on right now?
I mean I feel comfortable. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest and LinkedIn.
Okay. But we're just the traction is it's not really
picking up the way that I thought that it would.
I would put a pen in that because it should work for you and it may have to just be very targeted with your message. It's got to be tight and targeted. That's another conversation. But don't uh l lighten up on that. Go go heavy on that. It's you've got a great message.
Okay. I love your brand identity.
I don't know if you're familiar with you
Yes.
Okay.
So
Oh I I know it's for babies, but this just reminded me of the branding for Farmer's Dog. And those of anyone who's listening who doesn't know Farmer's Dog, it's like a gourmet dog food customized for your dog. I have a rescue chihuahua terrier mix, who honestly would eat anything. He'd chew a chair if that was all that was on the on for him. But
He gets farmer's dog and the reason it we did it was it's so much better. He is so much happier. He's like a young puppy and he's thirteen years old. Okay, so I really look at that website.
because there's a brand identity there that comes through and people like me respond to it. And that's what you need.
for your consumer.
You're charging twelve on the website it says twelve dollars for six ounces of baby food? Yes. Okay. So you're a high end product. And you should be a premium brand. Yeah, and you're a premium brand, you should be. So you've got to niche it that way.
A couple
А капла тинз едукашн, едукач, едукач. Мейк<unk>
There's a plenty of it on your on your site and in your materials. Why
are in season veggies important. What
Do people say about
Can babies.
You know, I mean people will say, can I don't know, can my baby be a v yes.
Um
One thing I would say, I love what you said earlier, what you have you've niched your initial distribution to farmers markets
Um, pre schools, perhaps you said. Uh I would look at your niche.
Local grocery stores.
Especially anything health food stores, anything which has small h the small high end you you're familiar from California.
With Errowan?
Yes, I am. I love that store.
I love that store too. Errowan, for anyone listening who doesn't know it, is a California based uh grocery m market, but it's very high end.
But they talk about
Ethically sourced foods, this is about your body and the planet. And they have a slogan as you walk in the store, and it says, If we sell it, it's good for you.
I feel like y that is an outlet that you could target. Maybe not yet, but that should be in your sights.
I would not go to a big supermarket. Don't
go anywhere near a Kroger or a even a whole foods yet.
Not yet.
Not now, because they could eat you alive with um the terms they would want, the amount of product you'd have to supply, and you would be carrying the cost of that until they paid, and those payments could be four months later.
These are they're fantastic food retailers, but it's not where you need to be right now. So niche it small, niche it.
Tight.
And make sure that um

where you can target high end customers because your average
buyer is not going to be the person that wants the the necessarily just, you know, the the quick easy fix. They could have found that already
On the shelves.
I I think I think um well first of all, I think Jane your advice about about focusing locally is critical right now. You just Camille, you've just launched. And so you are in the test and learn phase.
And
This is a hard face because you're not gonna see
Velocity.
and traction as quickly as you like. It's very rare for a new business business to to do that, especially in your category, right? Because
Baby food is challenging, right? People it's they've gotta trust that your food is safe and healthy for their child, right? What I think you you should consider is
thinking of this m time as the test and learn time, which is to
Keep a diary.
Write everything down, review and measure, right? Because
Over time.
you are you're you're going to start to see what works and what doesn't work. I mean the challenge that you face is you have a premium product. It is not
um shelf stable. You gotta refrigerate it and its shelf life is limited. So it's gotta be sold really quickly.
So over time could you
Serve it in the frozen section.
Could it be I think you could preserve most of the nutrients if you freeze it. I like that better. It looks better. Yeah, I think that's an that's a great advantage, actually.
Is there a world where
you would be con you would consider maybe
high pressure processing to preserve the nutrients and putting it um
in you know, s also in the refrigerated section, but maybe it would extend the shelf life longer. Maybe you use um
uh uh other packaging that's not so heavy. I love glass. I'm a big fan of glass and I be glass is heavy, so
Grocers don't always like it, but nobody recycles plastic. Those pouches are challenging. But I think that you're gonna learn over time.
what works. And now is the time to really lean into
The newspaper in Leesburg, the um alternative weeklies, the farmers markets, the
um parent groups and and start to develop a following there because you're just outside of
one of the most important media
and and cultural um
centers of the United States, the Washington D C metro metropolitan area.
There's an opportunity to kind of
get get a foothold in that market. But I think that right now as you're starting
you really wanna just measure what people say. You wanna write things down. You wanna ask people for their
feedback and you wanna start to see
how you might
make it even more accessible to people over time.
Yeah.
Yeah, and build your community. Yeah.
We've done that. Um we have we literally started surveys, uh doing s conducting surveys and and case studies. Yes. Uh last April. So that's that's been ongoing and we've been getting a lot of feedback and that's what allowed us to
Refine our the the meal offerings to
Like these six staple things that we launched with. Now that we've launched
um and we're opening up to a wider audience, we're still getting more more feedback, yeah, more input so that we can further refine.
And just see how we can and go go from there.
what I like about what you're what you're doing is that
It is a
You're focusing on nutrient density. Something that peop people are really interested in. And and Jane, I think this goes to right back to what we talked about earlier, which is the fundamentals. Like
In this i in this case
A lot of your energy has to be
Aims towards
really doubling down on educating parents. Like
Are they gonna get
everything they want from you know the the big brands that are available on the shelves.
It might be fine enough for them, but but what you're saying is look, this is different. I think it's critical because you don't want to be m confused with another baby food. It's this is not actually a baby food. This is a healthy start to your child's life.
So be prepared that not everyone is gonna want to go with you. That's fine. You don't need them. You need a very small percentage to go with you. So target them hard, speak to their to their mind, to their heart, and they'll they'll be there because this is
the right thing. It is the right thing to be available and I feel like you have a great opportunity. But you're in the sample. You're in the first sample, sample, sample sample, sample.
That and that that's been the closer. That's been what gets people in and they buy is uh offering the tasting. So everywhere we go we have samples.
Um but we're ch we're trying to create
Um, it's not just a baby food brand. We want a a community, we want awareness, we want education. So we wanna teach parents
D
repercussions of the convenience of grabbing that pouch and having something that they can sit in the bag for hours unrefrigerated. And what that you know, what that costs your child.
um we want to teach like the the real meaning of how true food should be be treated. True food is not shelf stable.
We don't use typical ingredients. We don't use oatmeal or any rice based anything in our in our foods.
Um and that's all very important, and people don't know those things. So but package everything you said into a little program, little workshop.
And pitch it to pediatricians in your area, pitch it to mommy and baby groups, pitch it to neonatal classes, all of those kind of things that we all did because it's important that you're not in there to sell your brand, you're in there to tell about the education behind your brand. And then they won't
have to be sold your brand. They'll want to buy it because they'll understand why it's so important.
Absolutely. Camille Hardy, the brand is called Chunky Vegan in Leesburg, Virginia. Thank you so much. Um good luck.
Yeah, good luck. Guy, Jane, thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure for uh to have this opportunity to speak with both of you. Thank you. Thank you.
You know, what you could do is you could have like a
Like a bar, right? Like a but instead of like tequila shots for babies. Yeah you just pr bring'em up to the bar and you give'em like shots of
Chunky vegan. I love it.
A little pop up in one of the stores or at the farmers market and you know, bring your baby over and feed them. And then you could have tequila shots for the parents. Absolutely,'cause that's what you need. And then the baby's eating the chunky vegan, the mom's got a little tequila and soda water. Yeah. It's working for me.

We're gonna take a quick break, but when we come back, another collar, another question, and another round of advice.
I'm Guy Raw, stick around, you're listening to the device line on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and my guest today is Dermalogica founder Jane Worwind. And uh Jane, what do you say? Let's take another call.
Yeah, let's take it.
Hello, welcome to the device line you are on with
Jane Worwand, please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and a little bit about your business.
Hey Jane, hey guy, my name is Molly Brubaker. I'm the founder of Baby Booty, and we are based in Portland, Maine.
Baby booty is boutique fitness for parents, where you bring your baby or toddler along, but the focus is on you. So we offer energetic fitness classes based on the everyday movements of new parenthood. So you can focus on getting stronger physically, emotionally, and mentally.
Our studios are located in Portland, Maine and Boston, Massachusetts, with a hope to franchise at some point.
Awesome. Well thank you for calling in, Molly. So so baby booty like boot like boot tease, like boot camp?
kind of thing? Uh yeah, like work your booty. I got you, yeah. And and you can in the classes like what you you bring your
baby to the class and the baby's just kinda like
wander around and do their thing or are they like deposited in another room where they're cared for?
Okay, so we kind of
seek to eliminate the need for child care. So your baby's there, we have
baby proofed studios, the babies are socializing, they're playing, they're eating snacks, they're playing with the toys, or they're strapped to your body. So you've got like goldfish crumbs on the ground and apple juice spilled in you got like your uh the workout class going on all around it.
You know it. It's a bit chaotic, but it really works. Um
It's amazing, actually, to see the chaos, but the focus is there for the parents. Um, so we welcome baby wearing. So if you have an infant,
You can strap'em on so you don't have to think about them. We have parents with toddlers for and under who are, you know, cruising on bikes, weaving in and out of our feet. But really it's a win win because you don't you don't need child care. Um you can focus on yourself.
for that hour and then your baby also gets to socialize.
Yeah.
I'm on your website now and I see you literally like half of these moms have their baby bjorns on. Yeah and the bab like like from from the hangover and you've got them exercising with the baby
in the baby Bjorn.
It's is each of them with their own baby, or can you kind of swap your babies? I'm teasing. I'm teasing. I mean our instructors are known to carry other people's babies around if they need help. Um, but literally like I look around I look around at my classes and I'm like
Why are more people not seeing how badass all these parents are? They're here, they're getting physic stronger after having a baby or becoming a new parent. And one thing that's really special about
uh about baby booty is that every single class is half workout, half social circle. Yeah. So I'm trying to find that sweet spot between you can socialize, you can connect with other parents, um, and your babies are there.
Um, but they're not the focus. I think there's
In our s in our culture there's really
Like kind of a lack of support.
For new parents, right? That's symbolic and that's the thing. I've been yes especially moms. And I'm a dad and I can say that as ha having having been there fifteen years ago. What what's your question that you brought for us today?
Yeah, so um how can I shift the mindset and behavior of my current and potential customers?
To also prioritize self care.
By coming to baby booty.
And not feel guilt in a culture where we feel like our kids always come first.
Got it. Okay. We'll get to that question in a sec. Jane, let's bring you in. Um
Questions.
Questions, questions from Molly.
Um, I l I love what you're doing. I
So let me backtrack because I'm quite excited about all of this.
When we started um Dermologica, we quickly started with education and classes, and what we quickly realized was
Students who were already qualified and working in salons were coming back to the same class more than once, which seemed odd because they'd already learned, you know, about acne or whatever it was. What we realized was they weren't just coming for the education, they were coming for the community.
And I think that's exactly what you've got.
I think you've got a work out studio, but what is pr I'm willing to bet one of the strongest pulls for people to come there is because yes, they can bring their baby, so that solves the child care issue. Second, um, they're with a like minded group.
it's connection, it's community, it's sisterhood, it is
Um, knowing that you're not on your own, knowing that you're not the only one that doesn't get it right first time, that is critically important because what
everyone is craving right now is community and connection.
So I would just really emphasize to you don't underestimate this community aspect. Make every
excuse you can to have them come in to the studio.
Whether it's a workshop, whether it's a baby class, whether it's somebody giving a presentation on something.
Get it on social media.
I looked at your Instagram just quickly and you've only got
Uh three thous a little over three thousand people. You can get
More than that. It's not bad. But your mums can keep uh your mums can
kind of flesh that out themselves, you know, have them post, do little competitions when they post.
Anything you can think about, any idea that builds community, build it in your business.
Yeah, for sure.
So do you ha you have a membership? There's a membership aspect to this?
And what does that look like?
Yeah, so you can join as a unlimited member, you get access to on demand classes, live stream classes, unlimited classes in the studio. And sort of what's spall part pricing on your membership?
Um, it's roughly like eighty nine dollars a month. It's very affordable.
Okay.
Great. And I can take out a month to month, or can I take out six months or a year? How does it work?
Yep, you can do month to month, or if you do six months up front, you get a little bit of a discount.
Yeah, Molly, I a couple of questions for you. First of all, um you mentioned that you like to be
you know, one day you've got two locations now, you like to franchise us. How how is give me a sense of how the b business is doing now. Are you
Are you guys profitable yet? I mean it's tough. It's you know, new business, but just are you where are you right now with the business? Yeah. Um no, we are not profitable. Um
I have no outside funding, so I've bootstrapped this. Um
Entirely. I've taken some taken some really big risks, some scary risks, um, in terms of opening my second studio in Boston. Obviously it's a lot more expensive than Maine. And you know, I've had to make some really tough decisions. Um, I haven't paid myself
ever I had to just let go of a manager who a beloved manager just because I couldn't pay her. Um so I, you know, I have a big vision and I am not gonna give up. Um but yeah, it's definitely hard um and just
Scraping by each month.
You know, I'm just like
treading water, like keeping my head up. Um, keeping a positive attitude. Yeah.
I I I love that and thank you for saying that. First of all, he here here's the thing, I mean
Um, Jane what Jane tapped into, I mean social media we we tend to overemphasise the importance I I think we overemphasise the importance of it and and
uh I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I do recognize that there are big parts of it that are critical, and in this case
What you're what what you're trying to do is to is to remind new parents. And I think
Probably most of your
clients are are are women, but I do see some men in the classes as well. So new parents that
they gotta give themselves like they have to take care of themselves too because it's part of part of being a
Good parent.
And and
taking care of your child, especially when they're little, is taking care of yourself.
And what's your value proposition here is we gonna we're gonna make it easy for you. Just come. Just show up. And I think that if there's a way to kind of
send that message through videos. I mean, you probably are already doing some of that, but I would really lean into that. That idea of like
Bring you and your baby and just come and we will take care of everything else. Yeah, we're here. Your community's here.
And we're waiting for you.
I have a quick question though. Why did you open the second what prompted you to open the second location in in Boston when when you hadn't you said you've never drawn a salary, which I totally understand all of that. That's that's very normal. But um but why did you then expand to a second location?
Um so when I started the business in twenty twenty one here in um Portland, Maine, I also started doing pop up classes in Boston in that area,'cause that's actually where I'm from.
And I I was just so excited. I I just felt there was a need as a I was a brand new mom myself.
And I just thought there's so many parents who could
who could utilize this. And it was successful in the pop-ups that I then said, well, we should just have our own studio space because the idea is to really have that home base for new parents.
To have a place to go and a sense of purpose. So
For all the right reasons, but did you sign a lease on the premises?
He did. Yeah. How long is your leave?
It's five years.
Okay.
Yeah.
That's a stretch because you you were how many
How at that time when you opened in Boston, how many in and was it just you teaching or did you have other people teaching with you or
Um so
In in total, my total team between the two studios, I have 17 instructors. Um and when I opened I had yeah, I had a team, I think of six and a and a manager.
Um, so I do go down I do go down there as often as I can. Um and
Um
you know, I I've learned actually to I have to run that studio a little bit differently than I do in Maine just because the clientele is different and it's it's so nuanced because
A market like Boston is a big city. We have a lot of more working moms, you know, career moms. They're going back to work. So I'm trying to navigate.
All of those like nuances of
within that demographic and figure out the right messaging. And do you do you have a manager in Boston?
I do, yep.
You do, okay. So they have to be your proxy. Uh
It's you've signed a five year lease, so you're in. However, I would say that that's a big chunk to bite off and try and carry the cost of that, the overhead of that, and the just the attention and energy of having to do that.
Uh Portland is a great location, Boston is a great location. I would think one would be enough to manage r until you feel really strongly you've got your got it worked out.
and then expand to the second, but that's you know, that's looking in the rear view mirror'cause you're already in there. But that's the balancing act and you're you're picking up a lot of overhead there, I would imagine.
I'm just laughing'cause a lot of people told me I was crazy. I opened the second location
when I had a six month old baby and a toddler. Um and we've had crazier mu much crazier exam stories on the show. I I I think I think one of the
Look.
I think you have an opportunity here and clearly you're aware of it. I mean you've got an opportunity here to really build and deepen a community. And I think
One of the in in addition to
this idea of making it easy, one of the things I think you you you can do, it's hard. I mean you're a mom, you're your parent, you gotta raise kids too, but
If if b baby booty, at least in the in the Boston location, can be even more of a three sixty
Location. You know, could you could you have a cooler that sells
um premium baby food. Could you have
maybe apparel, I maybe you are selling apparel already. Um, are you selling baby products? Are you inviting
pediatricians. I mean there's tons. I mean your Boston is one of the medical centers of the United States. And so
I h would imagine there are tons and tons of um neonatal specialists and m maternity care specialists who
would be delighted to come and talk do a talk for free. Obviously moms are busy. They don't have tons and tons of time. But all of those things generate buzz and interest. And so to me,
You know, it's hard. It's not gonna be eas it's not gonna be easy Molly. You've hear heard the show. You know how much of a of a sacrifice it is. But
Given that you've got the space and you've got the
You know, you've got the critical mass there.
I think you can really think of it more as m much more than than only a fitness.
Space.
Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. And look at that as your community clubhouse. Yeah. Yeah.
That's cute. Yeah. I um
I love I love all that. I love when you said, um, have it be more of a three sixty. And we know, we're definitely trying. We've brought in CPR workshops and
Can I you name it different mom's night
out and things like that. And it in Boston I I am facing, you know
the clientele just feeling like that competition of they have so many other choices of things to do with their kids. They're so busy, they're working, the kids in daycare, they're going to swim class and gymnastics.
And so
You know, how do I shift them to get
Into my
You know, my
Pump station, my my mom's club, you know?
It's that mentality, um that has been really challenging.
And that may teach you something also interesting. You may find that your your business model works better in a smaller community w and not a city.
And there's plenty of businesses that know, you know, they they know that target and that's what they focus on.
And and conversely, if you feel like you can compete against the noise of the city and all the other options that there are to go there, then you know, go for it.
P and partnerships, partnerships, partnerships, right? And uh why am I saying it three times? I don't know. But if you can if you can
start to even reach out.
On all LinkedIn emails.
Reach out to baby baby brands, you know, stroller companies, other brands that may want to come and talk to your clients about what they offer.
Those brands will often promote
U you they'll s they'll often say we're gonna be at baby booty, you know, and on and and so
little things like that actually can have a cumulative effect over time. It just
I I think people are surprised at how often
uh they they they'll receive a response when you just reach out.
Hundred percent.
Yeah, for sure.
All right, the company's called Baby Booty. Molly Brewbaker, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. We'll be we'll be keeping tabs on you.
Hey, thank you, Jane. Thank you, Guy. What an honor to talk to you. I love it. Thank you guys so much. And it's not just for mom, so you know, Jane, Guy, if you guys want to come and and work out with us and dance, we'd love that. Um I'll put my fifteen year old in the in the baby Bjorn.
He's a little heavy. Oh, I love it. You can just strap him on your back. My 25-year-old can carry me in.
Alright, we're gonna take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another collar. Stay with us.
I'm Guy Roz and you're listening to the advice line right here on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Roz, and today I'm taking your calls with Jane Whirlwind.
Let's bring in our next and final caller. Welcome to the advice line. You're Uncle Jane Werwin. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business.
Hi Jane. Hi Guy. I'm Sarah Wyman and I'm calling in from Lakeville, Connecticut.
I'm the founder of Parody Sport.
It's like spelled like paradise with no E at the end.
We make performance underwear for athletes.
Designed by women for women.
with our guaranteed stay in place promise.
All of our products are certified BPA.
And P FAS free.

Made as sustainably as possible.
And built to last. Awesome. Well thank you for calling in.
Parody sport. I love it. Um and um and so underwear. Yes. How did you start this brand? Tell me about it.
This is really um something that
I found I needed. Um, I had worn the same brand of active underwear for about ten years.
Um
I played sports in college. I played um division one sports and I'm now still a very active person. Wow, what'd you play, by the way? I played field hockey, ice hockey, and lacrosse. Wow. So you're no joke. Division one athlete
Well, I
I'm now um in my late forties. I am act still active skiing and running and hiking with my family.
Um and the brand of active underwear I'd worn for years.
Change their cut and fabric.
And um didn't work for me anymore.
I ordered all these other brands. None of them were
So some of them were really pretty bad.
I'm trained as an architect and landscape architect, and I've been running my own design business for eighteen years now. And I sort of have that design mentality.
Um and I thought
This is crazy that there aren't
better options for active women.
I just want a something that I can go on on a hike in and not have to worry about adjusting my underwear the whole time. Yeah. And then I started talking to friends and I started realizing that there are a lot of other women out there who are looking for better products in this category.
Having that design mentality I
Started calling around to
factories and ended up finding after a lot of calling in
factories in Asia and in the US.
Um found an
Awesome designer in Vermont who
had experience designing for
other underwear brands and for NASA and for um the US military actually. Um and she came up with our first
Prototype which we then tested.
with division one athletes and
We uh prototyped her
A good year and a half. We had eight rounds of prototypes.
So we've been very laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well. So you started this because you wanted to solve a problem that you had. You found a designer.
And now you've got um
from what I gather, two different mo like sort of designs, right?
Well, so we have two different lines for which we have a a bikini and a thong. One is seamless. They're knit on circular machines. Okay.
And um they don't have any side seams.
We
have a natural fiber line that's made with fabric that comes from sustainably harvested beech tree pulp.
And
We're add we're adding a couple new styles. Um, we're right now in development with a boy short and a hipster.
And Sarah, tell me a little bit about your um your entirely self funded. Yes. This bootstripe. Okay. And and mostly direct to consumers. So what what are you guys roughly doing in sales right now? Have you cracked
Like
fifty hundred thousand dollars a year.
We're close. We're really close. Nice.
Nice. Congrats. It's great.
Alright, how can we help you today?
So
The question that I had
Is that we've been laser focused on
Just underwear?
And doing it really well.
And
Trying to own that space.
We do have customers asking us to work on a sports bra or sports shorts.
What do you think about it?
Adding one or two
Other verticals.
Like
Sports bras or sports shorts.
Um at this point in our process.
Or should we just own
Underwear.
Chain who launched with twenty plus different
Excuse me.
Jane, what do you think?
I f first of all I love this. I think it's great. I think you have a real shot.
of building a brand with this. I'm on your website. I'm I love these three women running through the field.
With buffalo bison in the background in their underwear. It's just fantastic. It's very high quality. We need underwear that works like this. And I think I would not expand.
You've got to own this underwear niche. You've got to be when I think underwear, I gotta think
Parody.
I think that there's all kinds of opportunities to expand within the underwear.
I don't know, Pilate I do Pala I love Pilates, Pilates underwear. We we need something when we're doing standing leg series, trust me. You got a pregnant woman in one of your shops, but pregnancy underwear, there's specific sports I imagine like
I don't know, hurdles.
Pickable.
which is huge. Men's, I think, could be the next
Big step.
I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts and all the rest of it until you've got a great product going here and you've got great attention for press.
I wouldn't spread yourself too thin. I'm gonna jump in and make a counter a counter argument to to you, Jane. Okay, you go, guy. I actually think
first of all I think this that that being a women's uh brand is the way to go, at least for now. Yeah. The thing about sports bras, to me
I would say you should go for it because you've solved your you've already solved the underwear problem.
And I would imagine and again I'm
I'm a guy here, so I don't n you know know this as intimately as the two of you, but I would imagine that that's the other problem that a lot of women athletes have, right? Which is
dealing with with a bra or a top that isn't, you know, holding things together.
And if you if you know that you've solved the problem with underwear, I'm pretty sure
you will know how to solve the problem with tops and sports bras as well. And I would think
Those two together
would be a really powerful
Um
Sorry, go ahead. It's two totally different parts of your body. I mean a bra is very specific. I mean, whether you're it's an it's your size, it's your cup size, it's your most people haven't got a clue what size bra they should be wearing. And I l I love that whole idea and
But I think it's too soon. You're gonna distract yourself with the underwire versus the
Fun.
Forcing folding uh bras, pr the expandable straps, the
The sports bras don't have wire in their in there at all, do they?
But maybe
Well, that's probably one of the reasons why people who if you're larger breastied, you don't normally find one that really works for you. If you put on one without an underwire, it is more comfortable, but then you look as if you've got a dashin strapped round your chest. Everything sort of folds into the middle. So I think
I'm not that I don't think you should ever do
underwear like bras, but and slips and petticoats or whatever the heck's going on at that time. But I think there's such a market in
Lower half underwear.
Before you concentrate on top half.
I mean she does have an opening here.
chain because it's called parody sport, not parody underwear. So
That's true. I mean there there's a bigger vision here.
Sarah.
Right? Okay.
Alright.
Maybe. Um, but I I do think that
Brass.
open up they they require so many sizes and the with minimum orders
Her size, yeah. I'm that that's a huge hesitancy that I have there.
Um, but I also I love the idea of doing one thing really well.
But if you want to scale something, right, and this this you've got a lot going for. You got a great logo, you got a good name, I mean underwear by women for women, you've got underwear for women athletes. I mean
You've got a lot of co and I wonder whether you can build a whole business and scale a whole business on just
one thing, right? Just underwear.
Especially as as

The big eight hundred pound gorillas in the space, the Aloes and the Lululemons and others who I'm they may start to they can start to make underwear. I don't know if they do.
So I wonder whether there is
an argument to be made that despite the complexity
Uh it it is worth the risk.
I think there are companies that that uh are known for their underwear though, their lingerie, you know, and th and they may do panties and bras, but but in any event they I
I love the idea of going
S narrow and deep.
I think there's enough crazy people
like me, th really think about
underwear in a different way that
Um would be
Customers.
We might be divided here, guy. I say I say go narrow and deep. Or divided. But I love that and by the way, this is the longest conversation I've had about women's underwear in my whole life.
By the way, what is the name? Paradis. It's uh it's where does that come from?
So it's paying homage to Marie Paradis, who is the first woman to climb Mont Blanc in the hot telest peak in the Alps.
Oh I love it. Okay, you just you had me at Marie. What? It's an amazing story too. She went up in eighteen oh eight with a party of men.
And she was wearing
Oh well.
skirt and leather shoes. Leather town shoes. And she um persisted and Oh, you've got it on your website. Wait, I've just found her and imagine how much more comfortable that h that climb would have been with your underwear.
That's what we were thinking. We hoped she would support our efforts to outfit women. Yeah.
Comfort and performance, yes.
This is a great piece on the website, this movie movie story plus
Um I think that uh
Who are the Maries of today? I have a niece who's an ultra athlete in the UK. She said
G athlete.
And she is an I she competes in Ironman and she just rode across the Atlantic, literally with two other women. Yeah. Um, and they are out there, the Marie
of the world. Marie Paradis is out there and waiting for your underwear.
And look you're you're coming to the table with so much like
standing as a former D one athlete, Sarah. So I mean you know, the I can imagine that uh are you uh do you have any ends at some of the universities and and I mean are you able to get these
Two to college students who women who are playing on the Stanford Soccer team or the
field hockey team at wherever.
Yes, I played at Dartmouth College and the field hockey and lacrosse players have been my interns and fit testers and they're incredible. Um
Yeah.
I love it. I'd I'd love love to reach other college athletes as well.
I think we're gonna be hearing a lot more about this brand the next couple of years. Um Sarah, I say go into bras and sports bras. Jane says don't one of us
We might both be right.
I say listen to Sarah Blakely's interview with Guy. That was one of your early ones. Spanks.
Yep, she did one thing right. You're right.
Focus on that and then you can expand. I that's my model for you, spanks.
Uh I think that's good advice. Sarah Wyman, uh Parody Sports, congrats. Thanks for calling and good luck.
Thank you so much for having me on the show. And Jane, thank you so much for everything you've done for
women who own businesses. It's really incredible. Thank you. To be to be continued. But thanks thanks so much and good luck. You're you've got you've got something here. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Um, Jane, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question about
If you could go back in time and you could say, Jane, do this, do that
You know, or know this.
What's something that you wish you knew?
That might have been
Just to just to h help a little bit.
More helpful.
Oh
Probably so much. Um but I think the one thing that
Does come to mind is that I wish I'd known sooner.
That
there are no real experts out there. I mean there are people that have more experience
And they may have had more success.
and they may have made more money, but it doesn't mean that they're experts about your business. You know your business the best. You know what's driving it.
for you f emotionally, you know your customers when you're an entrepreneur.
And uh I for a long time I felt like
I didn't know very much. I I was kinda winging it. I was having some lucky hits.
And there must be experts out there that could be doing a lot better job. And then I it wasn't too many years before I realised actually no, not always. You can hire in people to assist you, but there's no one that's gonna
Run your brand or love your brand the way you do.
For sure. Um, Jane Worwin, thank you so so much for coming on the show.
Thank you, Guy. Thanks so much for having me back. I loved it.
That's Germological co-founder Jane Whirlwind. Um and by the way, if you haven't heard Jane's original How I Built This episode, um you've gotta go back and check it out. We you can find a link to it in the podcast description, and here is one of my favorite
Moments from that interview.
We went to a contract manufacturer in Los Angeles literally sort of fell on our swords.
and told him our our dream, gave him the pitch, and said we need you to do like a test run for us.
He said, Look, I've absolutely no reason.
to do this because
Ninety nine percent of everyone that sits opposite me telling me this story does not succeed, but for some crazy reason, I think you've got something interesting and I wanna be in for the ride.
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at gyros.com.
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This episode was produced by Catherine Cypher with music composed by Ramtina Rablui. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rausch.
Our production staff also includes Neva Grant, Andrea Bruce, Alex Chung, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Carrie Thomson, Ramel Wood, Chris Massini, and Sam Paulson.
I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to how I built this.