Simon Cowell: Music Mogul

0:08 I always respected tough love. Most of the time people aren't very good, you have to be honest. And what I wasn't gonna do. was change who I was just because I was on TV. I wasn't gonna lie to these people and say, Oh, I think you're amazing and everything's gonna happen because I knew the reality. It's hard enough if you can sing. I mean it's impossible if you can't sing.

0:37 Welcome to How I Built This, a show about innovators, entrepreneurs, idealists, and the stories behind the movements. They built. I'm Guy Raz, and on the show today, how Simon Cowell used sharp business skills and blunt opinions. To become one of the best known music moguls. in the world.

1:08 Back in 2010, a 16-year-old kid walked onto the stage of the talent TV show X Factor. He was charming, polite, and slightly nervous. He told the judges about his part time job at a bakery, and then, with no music to back him, he launched into a pretty shaky a cappella version of Stevie Wonder's Isn't She Lovely. After he finished, one of the judges paused, looked straight at him, and said, With a little vocal coaching? This cube could actually be pretty good. That teenager.

1:42 Was Harry Styles. And the judge who saw something special in him? Simon Cowell. Simon Cowell is one of the most recognizable personalities in global entertainment. He's the guy who helped bring us shows like American Idol, The X Factor, and America's Got Talent. He's helped launch the careers of artists like Kelly Clarkson, Jennifer Hudson, Carrie Underwood, and Adam Lambert, to name just a few.

2:08 But what's maybe more surprising is that Simon never studied music. He doesn't play an instrument, he can't sing, but what he does have is instinct. A deep understanding of what makes a hit. And more importantly What makes a star?

2:26 Now long before Idol or One Direction, Simon was working behind the scenes, scouting talent, cutting compilation records, and even licensing music tied to shows like Power Rangers in WrestleMania. He was able to recognize the connection between pop culture And pop music. And he built not just a company called Psycho Entertainment.

2:48 but an entire persona. The brutally honest judge who says what Everyone else seems to be thinking And sometimes what no one wants to hear. And if you think he's being rude, well, take a listen to this interview to get his perspective on why he says the things he says.

3:07 Anyway, as a child, Simon grew up in a well to do family in the London suburb of Elstree. where he was exposed to the film and TV studios that were based there. Simon's dad worked in the real estate business and his mom had once been A ballet dancer. Yeah, she was uh very glam, if I yeah, if I had to describe it to anyone.

3:30 It would be Elizabetha, the hair, the makeup, the dresses. She would always I remember this, sh her telling me this, that she would always kind of get herself I suppose dole up. When my dad came back from work. I love why? She just said, I just like it. You know, she was kind of like very classic in that way. And

3:53 And was she I mean I I've seen her described as a quote unquote socialite, which is a a a bit of a weird word because it it conjures up You know images of of superficiality and things like that. But was she I mean, did she

4:10 sort of known as somebody who, you know, you always want to go to You know, you always want to go to her parties like, Oh yeah, Julie's having a party. Let's go to her house. Everyone yeah, used to entertain. There was you know, if it wasn't our house, it would be the neighbour's house. Pretty much every weekend there would be a large party. Um, and hopefully see it in the summer.

4:31 Uh, when the weather was good, it would be outdoors and you know, I always remember uh my Next door neighbour uh was a guy called Jerry Blackb. And he ran I think it was MGM Studios in the UK. So we all looked and he was a little guy, but we all kinda looked up to him as oh God, he's the producer, you know, he's the guy.

4:53 Because when we used to look over into the garden during the parties, all we ever saw were film stars. Mm-hmm. And I always thought That must be The best job in the world. Being him.

5:03 Wha w how are you as a I mean, from from everything I've read Um including in your biography. You really loved your parents. You had a really good relationship with them. But you were not um mean you weren't a good student, for example. You talk about this, right? D did

5:18 W was there. W w did that create conflict at all between you and your parents? Well, you know, I think if I it let's say Eric, my son, had turned out like me I would go We have a problem because I was

5:34 I just rebelled against any form of discipline. I just I couldn't I couldn't deal with that. Uh if they said don't do that, I would always do the opposite. Uh uh there was, you know, one particular school I went to and the teachers were just

5:50 Brutal. I mean to the point where I mean I I went home one one day like I was beaten up because this teacher whacked me so hard. And uh eventually, you know, I told my mum and my mum came to the school and had this massive fall out with the headmaster and this awful teacher. Um So I think that didn't help.

6:13 I I think they knew I was kinda bright, but not Academic. Yeah, I I guess you you never really finished school. I mean, I think you you left or or or dropped out when you were like sixteen or or maybe seventeen. Yeah. Uh and then a few years later you got one of your first, I guess, quote unquote real jobs uh at EMI music publishing was uh it was in the mailroom. Yeah. Uh and fr from what I read you you

6:37 Pretty much hated it, right? I I didn't actually hate the job. I tell you what I experienced. Um I kinda was bullied a bit. Mm-hmm. There were people uh who were my age, by the way, a little bit older, who would work in, say, the copyright department of EMI music publishing. You know, they they were what I would call desk jobs.

7:00 So they were my age. And I'm wandering around with my mail card. And they used to be sort of sneery. you know, like, oh here comes, you know, the male guy, you know? And they were just rude. So

7:14 I just was frustrated, I suppose. I didn't like them. I didn't actually want their job. I just didn't like being Clear that. Mm. Having said that, I actually quite liked the job. Um, because I thought eventually I'm gonna get out of there.

7:32 And I'll find a job. You know. Because I started to understand what a music publishing company actually does. And actually being in the mailroom, I used to see some of the checks that turned up. I'm like, My God, these people are making a fortune. Yeah. You know, I used to always go into like the executives rooms when I delivered mail. And just Ciao.

7:52 Come on, give me a job. Lucky to you. And it didn't happen, unfortunately. And I think you left that mailroom job like after a a year or maybe two and and went to work briefly at your dad's real estate company, but then he went back to EMI, but this time

8:08 With a better with like a better job, right? Like helping to I guess produce cover songs or or something like that? Yeah. So my job was sort of a song plugger which was Any copyrights EMI

8:21 You know, owned from say, I don't know, country artists from America. I would listen to Thousands of songs. you know, over a period of time.

8:32 and then try and get other people to record them. And a lot of these songs were uh hits in America weren't hits in the UK and I would then try and find a well known artist to cover these songs. So I would meet with And our guys on a regular basis will try to

8:49 Which was Honestly, really, really difficult to do. And once you were in, you had about thirty seconds. And if they didn't like what you were doing, they would basically just throw you out. And and so you're doing and did you did you si I mean w did you sign successfully sign anybody Like Notable?

9:08 I think I got a lot of songs recorded, so it was enough For my boss to say I think Simon you're gonna do well. You know In music.

9:21 I've been thinking about leaving EMI. Would you consider leaving with me and I'd only been in that job for about, I don't know, a year and I was so young and naive, I didn't really know what I was doing, and I was like, Well Okay, but I'm quite happy. Are you sure this is the right thing to do? And he and he said, Yeah, I've got some financial backing. Cut a long story short.

9:45 I Said yes, I went with him and then I realised very quickly we just didn't have the money we would need to be an independent music publishing company. This was Ellis Rich, I think, who was your boss and and you he he formed a label. That um I guess

10:03 Really w went nowhere. Yeah. Well, Alice did well, to be fair to him. I mean, I s uh, you know, he he became I think president of one of the publishing associations or something. So he was very well respected. Um just for me at that age. I had very itchy feet and I thought

10:24 I don't have the patience. To try and build something from scratch. And I also didn't really want to be a music publisher. I wanted to be an A and R guy. I've made that decision. You wanted to be the guy who was going out there, going to shows, going to clubs, looking for up and coming artists to sign, basically.

10:43 Yeah, I thought the fun job would be To be the person Who signs the artists and makes the records, basically. Uh just for me. It was more exciting than being a music publisher, which is quite slow.

10:59 So that's why I decided to do that. Did you naturally feel comfortable like In this role of going to Gigs and just going up to artists and bands that didn't know you and and just kind of

11:12 Introduce yourself and try to strike up a conversation with them. Well, it's a good question. Uh y you d y I don't think anyone even today is really trained to be an A and R person. I don't even know how people today you know, get that job because a lot of the A and R people I knew But Genuinely tone deaf.

11:33 Um seriously. So it was all about blagging it. I just thought You know what, I just want to have hit records. That was it. And this was just at the cusp. Well

11:47 There was this kind of crossover period. between what was happening in a lot of the gay clubs, they were kind of ahead of the curve. It was like, you wanna know what's gonna happen in six months time, you went to this club. The music was fantastic. The energy was incredible. So I would sit in the booth and just watch.

12:09 And listen and think yeah. If I can get a record as good as one as those, with an artist sign to me, I think this is a good r way to start. Just Made sense. Um and I was fortunate one night I was out And I and I met this girl

12:28 And she told me That she'd be making some demos. And uh I heard her songs and I thought actually She can really sing. And I thou felt with her Sinita.

12:42 This girl. Actually if we could find a record that we could break through those clubs. But is commercial enough to then be a record, that might be a good way starting. What was your sort of criteria in your mind? I mean I I'm wanna kinda

12:59 dig dig into the story of Cenita a bit because this is like nineteen eighty three. Um and You She's a teenage singer, right? And and Were you listening for a sound that you

13:13 that you just appealed to you, or were you listening for something that you thought would have mass appeal? Whether you liked it or not. I I kinda had a benchmark in terms of what I thought the record should sound like. So we've made two records. One was called cruising. And one was called some matchup.

13:30 I just to Those two words so macho. It's funny. Um and I thought The lyric is quirky enough.

13:38 To be a crossover record. And I could break the record. Probably By taking Sonita.

13:47 Yeah. every kind of club I could in the UK. You know, with manufacturer, I don't know Five, six hundred white labels. Uh twelve inch vinyl. And I would take the white labels into the club, go up to the DJ, can you play this record?

14:02 Yes. And then if they liked it, sometimes they would invite her back to actually perform in the club. So we started to build a kind of an audience for her. Really at a grassroots level.

14:17 It reminds me of so much of the story Troy Carter told about Lady Gaga, you know, going in vans. All the all up and down California. In clubs. It's it's really amazing how I mean that's how you have to do it. So Yeah. Heard it and seen the video.

14:35 We didn't have a big budget. Um no clear clearly you didn't. But the I mean this was a This was somebody you had kind of quote unquote discovered and had the song written for her, and I guess you borrowed money to to put put the song out to make this record to press the records and

14:53 But but I I'm wondering like In nineteen eighty four four eighty five. How do you How do you then

15:01 You know, w when you're just You, you're a young guy with You know, um how do you get How do you get that on the radio? How do you get That song to be heard.

15:10 Well that was the issue. I met this guy Ian Burton, who I really liked'cause he ran a management company and and an agency. A traditional kind of agent. Was he older than you? Uh yeah, he was probably about ten years older than me.

15:26 And I said to him one day, I said, Look, Ian, I really like you and I think you're doing really smart. Have you ever thought about running a record label? He went, I wouldn't know how to start. And I said, Well I could do that for you. So in other words If you pay me.

15:41 It's your company. Um, I just need a salary. He said, Well how much you want? I said I don't know, sixty five pounds a week. And I can't remember the number we ended up. It was it it wasn't as high as that, but it was round about that figure. So I c I started very quickly found Sonita and I persuaded him

16:00 Two Yeah. Give me enough money. To the Sign her.

16:07 Make a record. Make a video and everything else that goes with it. Um I did the radio promotion myself, I did the television promotion myself. As you could tell by the video we didn't have much money. It was in a c it was somebody in a camcorder.

16:24 It was classically bad. And I had to release this particular record three times. I c I try to get into the top forty each time. Whether it was the clubs or whether it was getting the artist on TV. I would do anything I could to get my record.

16:45 There was a a soap pro which was running for years in the UK. I used to phone the producer. of this soap opera'cause they used to have a cafe and in the cafe they had a radio and I'd say, Could you play my record on the radio on the show next week? And he'd be like what? I'm like, Yeah, I just want people to hear this record. So I I was just I I was a constant hustler.

17:11 Which meant it started to get some radio plays and some traction. And then the record just flies up the charts. So I thought, Oh my God. The world's fantastic. This is incredible. You know, it's my first record. Uh everyone's doing well. I bought a house.

17:27 I bought a car. And then this was just just to just to interrupt for a moment, I mean, this was all on the strength of That first single so macho, like So you as the Sort of the

17:39 the the person behind this song. You you didn't write it, but you produced it and y I mean You had made quite a bit of Mm cash off of that. Of that song. Well, I was making yeah, I was making more than sixty five pounds a week.

17:53 And it sold. I can't remember eight hundred thousand, a million copies. And I guess you should mention that there was another hit song that she had called Toy Boy. Which is like a proto Spice Girls song. Like it like it's it was ten years before the Spice Girls, but it had elements of what that would be ten years later. Yeah. It's sort of there's like a spice girls element of like wannabe at the beginning with a group of young women kind of

18:17 rap singing and then Sidita kind of takes over the song, and it's called Toy Boy, and I'm totally ridiculous song. But it became a huge hit. And I I mean this is what I'm curious about, right? Because Especially because I you know In certain

18:34 Kind of Parts of our culture. There's a tendency for especially young people to kinda become like music snobs, like oh That's not cool. Or you know, like like w w at your time it was like

18:49 Toy boy, right? Like that kind of person would just have utter contempt. for for that kind of popular music. And I wonder whether you were 'Cause you were onto something, you understood that people were gonna like that song and it didn't matter With the

19:04 Sort of the Smiths crowd. Might have thought of it, right? It's a re you're you're you're absolutely spot on. And to your point about You know.

19:16 The song itself. I actually thought It's a very commercial song. Uh I could I

19:25 People. Liking the song. I liked the song. I thought the melody was brilliant and it just sounded like an obvious hit record. I mean it's it what what I never did though, I never tried to pretend

19:43 That I could produce a record. or be a musician because I couldn't I can't produce records. I can't play instruments. I don't know what note anyone's any singing in, whether it's C, B, D, or G. I have no idea. So I only I I base everything I ever do based on do I like it? I I d I never guess. It's like do I like it? Yes or no?

20:08 Alright, so everything's Looking good, right, with these two hit songs you've you've got with Sunita. Uh but But then you run into some trouble, right? Because I guess at at one point

20:18 uh the like your record label had gotten acquired by a larger company and then Uh sometime in the late eighties that company kind of w I guess went bust. Yeah. So basically

20:30 You know, my label was just a tiny part of this much larger company, which I didn't have anything to do with. So when the larger company When Broke. We only found out when we turned up for work one day and

20:46 The company's bust. So you're broke. Um, you had a mortgage on your house and What did you do at that point? I mean did you

20:57 I'm I'm assuming that part of you knew that you would be okay because you had already had experience with success or Was it a low point? Do you remember feeling like I I failed. Well,

21:09 I was making anything to make money. So th there was one sort of craze that happened. They were called mega mixes. And what a Mega Mix was. Is the

21:20 You would Find a session singer. And say I don't know, but You'd do an ABBA mega mix. So you would just find singers who sound like ABBA and just record Ten episodes.

21:34 and get a DJ to mix one song into the next into the next. Put them on twelve inch. And sell them. as export records. And we we we could sell ten thousand at a time, if we were lucky, and make a decent profit.

21:50 So I uh so I just jumped on this and I was making uh making tons of these records and I and I I did make a Wham mega mix. Unfortunately, George Michael didn't like the War Mega Mix. So We were taken to court and Uh

22:06 George Michael's lawyer was a guy called Tony Russell. So as we lost this This case. I walked up to him and I said Mr Russell, um you absolutely killed us in there. Would you mind representing me in the future?

22:22 I just liked him. And so when all this Terrible things were happening in my life. The one person I reached out to at that point. was

22:33 mm, this lawyer Tony Russell and I said, Look, I've got myself into a real Mess. I had next to equity on on the house. I owed the bank a lot of money. I had nothing, basically.

22:46 And uh I said Tony, what do I do? And he said, uh you're gonna have to find a major label sign and now Tabacu.

22:56 Uh and that means getting a label deal. I said, What does that mean? He said, Well uh some of the major labels are offering, you know, people like yourself Their own label. uh which you know you'll own a part of But they will bankroll everything.

23:13 Because without that Uh there's nowhere else for you to go. Two companies were willing to meet me. Uh one I think was Polydor, which is now part of Universal, and the other company was BMG. And I went in to meet um with uh Polydor. I thought we had a really great meeting. I basically told him, you know, I've had some success. I think there's a massive gap in the market, you know, for pop music. This is what I do best.

23:42 I had the similar meeting with BMG which I didn't think went as well. And then two days later I got a phone call from my lawyer and he said They don't want to do it. I'm not my Okay, so where are we left? Is it you're left now with

23:57 BMG, if they say no, you have a big problem. So uh I had to wait about a week and I'll never forget it. He called me and he went, I've just heard back from BMG and I went, Yeah. Is it They're gonna give you one year.

24:12 And That was probably one of the most exciting phone calls I've ever had in my life. So you become like an independent consultant for for BMG, like an A A and R consultant for a year. You get a year contract, and I'm assuming Under the terms of this you had to you had to sell.

24:31 A minimum number records. Correct. That was part of the condition is that um 'Cause I d I I didn't have any artists at that point. Uh I had to start really all over again. I had an A and R budget, which wasn't very much, by the way.

24:48 I was able to hire I think uh an assistant. And I remember we were in their offices the first week. In this tiny little office with one telephone and we just used to stare at it and it never rang. So it's like okay, fine. I know I well I did I didn't have a business plan, nothing. You know, it was literally

25:07 Just Sell. records. It whatever you can we can find, just sell records. That's all I kept thinking about. The the thing that I'm really interested in is that While you are in in that time.

25:20 Uh L P M G You did something Very unusual and risky and Kinda crazy, which is you suggested

25:28 Signing Um Like well. Puppets, for example. Doing doing a t so I I should I should get some backstory here because I I don't think most people Well know who Zig and Zag are. Zig and Zag were this is this weird TV show. I think it was Irish. And it was these weird alien puppets, and they would

25:48 Just insight. I mean it was just really funny Irish humor which kids and adults liked. It was nuts. And I remember there was something about them singing. So, you know, obviously they weren't real puppets. So I found out who the two guys were and I called them and I said, you know, hi, I'm Simon work at BMG. Would you ever, you know, consider about putting out a record'cause you are

26:17 you know, singing on on one of shows they were doing and they went Yeah. And at the same time, the power ranges were huge. In In the UK

26:29 And was it no. I can't remember which one came first, Power Rangers or or the World Wrestlers. But I also someone told me that the wrestlers had sold out Wembley Stadium eighty seven thousand seats in two minutes. And I'm like what?

26:46 And you know, I'd seen enough of them on T V and saw how much music they used in their shows to go, gosh. They're selling so much merchandise if I could get the wrestlers. On record. This is a no brainer which I you know, fortunately managed

27:03 And I did the same thing with the power ranges. Zig and Zag Power Rangers WrestleMania. So let's let's kind of take Power Rangers, for example. Like they had music, right? They had their theme song and there was music in the show. So I can imagine how you could take that theme and get some artists together or whoever was making the the music for Power Rangers and have them write, you know, eight or ten songs for a record and put that together and put that out there.

27:30 WrestleMania. That's come so basically the idea was if I'm I I I'm trying to work this out in my head. You thought, okay, let's get these wrestlers. Put them in a recording studio and And give them I don't know, things to say or just have them kind of talk or give them some lines to sing and then we'll get professional singers to fill in the gaps and and add beats and just make ten songs? Like what how did you conceive of what that would be? Okay.

27:58 You know, once I got the deal Uh I went to see one of the shows. And I actually thought the show was brilliant, but I loved more than the wrestling was the entrances,'cause each wrestler had a kind of like a a signature theme. Yeah. So I thought actually music's a huge part of what the show is.

28:18 So, you know, whether you're the Undertaker or whether you're the British Bulldog or whatever Um Each person should have a kind of a signature song. Either by this point I I was that be BMG. I used to sit in these AR meetings, uh, and it took me back to the times of when I was, you know.

28:38 Uh uh to live in the mail. These guys in these A and R meetings used to look at me like I am the lowest form. You know uh in the room. They couldn't even make eye contact with me because they were so serious. And they were playing all these cool bands that were trying to sign.

28:56 And not doing great. And I used to, you know, play these crazy songs. And they would sometimes just get up and walk out the meeting and tell me to my face what an idiot I was. And I'm like, Well It's the music business. I'm just trying to s make money.

29:14 You know, it doesn't really matter, does it? Someone's enjoying it. L let them enjoy it. Who cares? I mean the the thing about any industry and it's like whether it's music or you know, or or my world or whatever, I mean people get horse blinders on, right? And so all of the people around Around like all the people who were

29:34 In that world. had a certain view of what good music was and what it meant to be respected and appreciated and for a good review from a critic. Essentially you it sounds like you didn't That wasn't

29:46 In on your radar screen. Like you you're focused on what is going to sell. Yeah, and look to be fair. When I made the Power Rangers record and the video I actually loved it.

29:58 I mean, I got goosebumps when I saw the video. I just thought it was fantastic. I found it really exciting. I knew the music industry would hate it, but I personally liked it. Yeah. It got to a point, however, where It was so miserable.

30:16 in in in one part of BMG I was working for. I just had enough one day because I was sitting in this label meeting. uh they were making the projections for the final quarter of that year. And everyone had played their songs.

30:32 And this the uh my boss turned round to me and said, Uh, and what have you got, Simon? I said, Well I've got some pretty good news, you know, I've got the power rangers. And I've got sick and sang and she's What? And I went, Yeah. And I

30:47 Well can we hear them I said? Yeah. I like. put these records on, there was absolute deadly silence in the room and sh there was a huge board.

30:57 which she was writing on and she just wrote a massive zero on the board after me playing these two songs and I just Said. That's it. So I went up to the big boss and I said

31:10 I'm walking out my contract. I ca I just can't deal with this anymore. Um, you know, I'm making you a lot of money. I'm being humiliated. And he said, Look, I'll tell you what, I'll move you to another label. You know, within BMG. Cool label. The best label to be

31:26 On was R C A at that point. And they were really doing well. And they move me. It uh uh over to R CA. So with the same deal and my boss

31:38 You know, direct boss was head of AR. And he just said, Look, I get it, Simon. You know, I I understand what you're doing. Um, don't let anybody make you lose your confidence. Um, you've got a good track record. Yeah. Just make sure your first record to hit here. And that was it.

31:58 When we come back in just a moment. How Simon taps into television yet again to find his next hit. And then winds up on camera?

32:09 Himself. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to How I Built This. Hey, welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Raz. So it's the early 1990s. Simon is working as an AR consultant for BMG and scouting around for his next hit record. The way the business worked in those days, we were still

32:49 manufacturing records. So all the independent shops or the chains, if they wanted to reorder a record, they would phone the Teddy Sales Department And I used to go in and talk to all the people in there. what's hot at the moment, you know, what's selling. It was j it just gave me a kind of an idea what was going on. And I was very friendly with a lot of them. And just by luck, one morning I walked in And and one of the girls uh who I think ran the operation, she said, Simon, um we're getting calls all morning

33:24 For a soul by Two actors from a T V show. I said, What is it? She goes, Unchain Melody and I said. Okay, leave it to me. So anyway, I track it down, which was

33:36 The night before On this show is a drama series called Soldier Soldier. These two actors In a kind of a love triangle story. One of them or both of them.

33:50 Us singing this song. in the show. In the show, not for long. And it's in the end credits. And and it was a I mean, obviously a cover of Unchained Melody, which was written I think in the fifties and then famously

34:03 Yes. And because the story was so powerful. The song. just resonated immediately. So the following morning Thousands of people literally are walking into record shops saying

34:19 Is that record available? And so the shops were phon s all the all the companies saying, Wow, Do you have the rights to this record? And they went, No So I'm not Okay.

34:31 But there this is a good opportunity. So anyway, got hold of their agents. Heim Samenkaworth, blah, blah, blah. Uh everyone's trying to buy this record. Would would your clients be interested? No. Uh. What do you mean no? They're actors. Let me talk to them personally. No. Anyway, I get hold of them personally eventually. Would you ever consider doing this? Absolutely not.

34:51 Um And I said, Well Why? And they just said we're not interested. So I thought I can't give up on this. I felt I had an understanding of what. The audience wanted. And that's always what drove me, which I thought if there was a potential demand for something Give them what

35:11 They want So I just Was relentless. You hounded these guys. I did hound them, if I'm being honest with you.

35:19 So finally. I I was able to meet one of them. And I said, look. I know that you're taking this really seriously. I think there will still be a demand for this record. If I can get you in a studio quickly. Mate the soul.

35:34 I'll get it out. You have to do much. Yeah. And on top of that If you go in the studio, I'll give you a hundred thousand pounds to split between the two of you. And there we were. Really? And I went. Yeah.

35:45 So I managed to actually to get them On a television show. to perform the record. It was the actually the national lottery. The lottery show was big in those days.

35:57 So We did it and then the following morning is the day of release and If you Yeah. Three, four thousand, five thousand repeat orders.

36:09 on the first morning you're heading to a top ten. You get 10 to 20,000, you're heading to a top five. You get 50,000 plus repeat orders, you're heading top two number one. So I really need to know. Because we did. We basically had to On sail or return.

36:28 Give the record. stores a ton of records we also manufacture so the risk now is getting higher and higher and higher. So I'm really in a hole here. I was so nervous that morning. What's the repeat order like this morning?

36:44 And I looked on the screen. And I saw this number and I went No, what is the real repeat? Order this morning. That number was nine hundred and thirty thousand.

36:56 Wow. It goes. Ballistic. this record and I mean Ballistic. Everyone not only did they

37:05 Sell out. Once people knew the rec was available Everyone's trying to buy this record. We can't make enough records. So I've got every pressing plant across Europe. In twenty four hours trying to make enough. stock to fulfill the demand.

37:23 And I think that was my real first kind of like in a oh my god moment in a television is such an important It's a key here. Emotions are such an important key. Everything, you know, together. If you manage to m made all those things work together.

37:44 You know, this is Incredible. Alright. Let's so you have this this sort of mega hit. And

37:53 You're still in this joint venture with BMG and and and essentially an A and R, but you've got you kind of it's kinda like your own imprint, like in publishing. Essentially. I'm it's sort of a similar analogy. Um And one of the one of the accent kinda slip through your fingers and you've written about this, which was a regret of yours was the Spice Girls. Not I don't think

38:16 It was your I think you wanted to sign them. Yeah. But you couldn't sign them. I think the girls were told That I'd uh I'd pass on them. That wasn't the story. Uh we we used to have to sit in

38:29 an AR meeting once a week and a business affairs meeting once a week. It was a very kind of rigid system. you know, every week you would have to tell Everyone what you were working on. You know, whether you had a chance of a hit. Who you were signing.

38:45 And then in the business affairs meeting, you would be told whether you're making money or not. So, you know, it was A really good system they've created, you know, within BMG. to kinda teach us to be entrepreneurs as well as music executives, you know, it was really, really smart actually. So uh in a during one meeting I remember one of the A and R guys saying, I'm hearing a buzz about a band called Spice. So I just

39:09 It was in the back of my mind. And then I went to a meeting with my uh people who used to plug my records. And they had been hired. to work on the spice girls at an early stage. And as I pulled up

39:22 the girls were in a a camper van or something. And s and for some reason knew who I was. uh, you know, as an A and R person and dragged me into their van and played me w uh wannabe. And this is before mobile phones. I get in my car. floor it back to my office, call the manager and said, look, I'll literally double whatever deal you've been offered.

39:44 If you haven't already signed and he said it's too late to sign. And so whether they had or not, I don't know whether that was true or not, but That's how I I I missed out on them. But Soon after that.

39:56 You sign Westlife, which also becomes a huge Act. Um And I know that you talked about this when when when Westlife when their record w hit number one, you also found out that same day that your your father had passed. Yeah.

40:12 Yeah. And you know, the the terrible thing about it was was, yeah, I mean, well I was kind of at a point where I never actually W could believe that My parents would ever pass away. I just love them so much. I just

40:27 So Uh when I was playing demos and things like this at home, you know, my dad had a really good ear for music and he would say I think that's gonna be a hit, so I'm I would go with that record.

40:42 If you're gonna choose between the two. And he was always right. And he'd heard the first Westlife. uh single and he said, I think that's gonna be a big hit for you and I'm like Really? He went, Yeah. Okay. Well I'm gonna give it a shot, I believe in this ban.

40:55 And I was in um I think I was in I was in America. I was at a conference. And I was waiting to get the news about

41:07 The First morning's repeat orders. Which were great. And it was a wow, this looks like it's gonna go to number one. And then my boss walks into my bedroom.

41:20 And guys, I've got some news for you and um And it's just hit me like a train, you know, I just wasn't prepared for it. Um

41:31 So you know I flew home and went to see my mum and uh I think I had to take at least one or two months off work I I just couldn't go into work. So upset.

41:43 Yeah, I can imagine. Um and I mean this This happens uh about the time where your your career Takes Yet another major turn because I mean

41:55 mean here you are, you've got uh a bunch of successful records now, right? Westlife and and I mean You could have been like a like a super producer, like a Clive Davis, right? Like we could have been talking about now. twenty, twenty five years, all these artists that you signed and you signed this band and that band, but But that's not the direction your career went into, right? So be before we get to Yeah.

42:17 Where it went. I don't know, nineteen ninety nine, two thousand. Could you have anticipated that for the next twenty five years of your life. you would become a television star. Like was that even on your radar?

42:29 Never. No. I got an approach about this show. It was called Pop Stars. And it was about making the making a band, basically, on T V and there was gonna be auditions and if I agreed to be the judge, then I would get the group that was Create it.

42:49 I did think. Yes. This sounds like a pretty good idea. Reality TV start to take off and I could sort of see this. in my head, which is yeah, I think people find the whole process interesting and it's a great platform for a new artist. So you know, whoever the group is, they're gonna sell a lot of records. So initially I said yes.

43:10 And then I thought about it and I went, you know what? No, I'm not gonna do it. It's just too much out of my out of my time. It's not something I'm I'm even remotely interested in. So I called back the television company and I said I'm not gonna do it. Um, so they they gave that role to somebody else, another A and R guy. So however, I'd heard enough about the show

43:34 that it was niggling me and I went away on holiday. And I think I must have seen Something. Whether it was I've seen One of the episodes.

43:47 A short bit of it and I thought, oh God. This is gonna be huge. We've gotta find a way of coming up with our own version, which is well Me and another guy did. This is Simon Fuller who who is the manager of of the Spice Girls. Yeah. And so you you kinda got together with him to

44:06 Create. Your own concept. Two companies I T B, BBC Both said yes. Um

44:15 However IT V said You've gotta be on the panel. And I just thought I can't miss out. a second time. So I said, Yeah, I'll do it for a year.

44:27 you know, the artists get signed to me, which is all I really cared about, if I'm being honest with you. And then after a year, someone else could do it. That's honestly what I what I had in the back of my mind. And then when the show aired it became an instant hit. And then America instantly made an offer To do their version. So Idle becomes a huge success in the UK and Fox

44:51 very soon after wants to make a version, an American version of it, American idol. And this really is the first time American audiences are introduced to you, and this is two thousand two when Terrestrial TV was totally different than what it is now. Like people would sit down and watch en masse. So All of a sudden there's this there's this Brit

45:11 On American TV next to Paula Abdul and Randy Jackson, most people knew who Paul Abdul was. A lot of people might know Randy Jackson. They didn't know who you were. So how are you introduced to American audiences. Like how are how is your sort of credibility established? How do they do that? I mean there was none. I mean, first of all, uh when they made the offer, I said yes, and then About a day later I called them back and I went, I'm just

45:37 Not interested, not gonna happen. And I really had made my mind up, it was absolutely no. Why were you not interested? I mean, this was massive exposure for your business at the very least. I just didn't love the whole being on TV that much. I mean, I kind of love the idea of signing the artist. The being on TV just

45:59 you know, wasn't really my thing, if I'm being honest with you guys, genuinely. And then a friend of mine who I really respected, I spoke to her and said, I'm in a bit of a dilemma at the moment, you know, they want me to do the show in America, and I don't know if it's gonna work there or not. And she said, Well look So I'm knowing you. Either way. You're gonna beat yourself up. If it is a hit uh and you say no, you're gonna beat yourself up.

46:24 If it isn't a hit, you could say if I was on the show, maybe I could have made it better. So I'm like, Yeah, you're right, you're right. Okay. So I I agree. And by the way, I didn't ask for any money. Uh uh for myself on both the British show and the American. I said I don't want a contract, I don't want to be paid. If it s works, then we're gonna have a another conversation if it works.

46:46 So you were you were all you all you got was you could you We're guaranteed to sign the winner. Correct. Yeah. That was yeah, and that's what I really wanted. And so when I went to America, uh I remember we rented a house, uh and I got to the house

47:02 And the real estate agent said, Uh I'm not sure about this new show of yours and I said, Why? He says, Well the network have asked for a one month break in the rental agreement. Oh great. Anyway, we made the auditions. The auditions were just A lot. A mess, if I'm being honest with you.

47:23 Uh there weren't that many good people and I just thought this is a Disaster. An absolute disaster. To be honest with you guys, genuinely, I finished filming. I didn't even know when the show was gonna air in America. I actually didn't know, I'd forgotten about it, I was back busy in the UK. And then I get this phone call, I just hear this guy screaming down the phone. Yeah, the ratings are

47:48 It's a hit. I'm like, what? American Idol, everyone's talking about it and they want to meet you and I'm like, Really? And they went, Yeah, I'm like Okay. And that dynamic work for at least from the viewers perspective.

48:03 worked so well with Paul Abdul and Randy Jackson. Like it just It the three of you It was the perfect chemistry. Yeah. But here's the thing, right? And so that first season kind of le legendary, and I know know it very well because I've interviewed Kelly Clarkson twice on different shows that I do. And so I've I've gone deep into that experience for her, like winning that, right? And Kelly Clarkson becomes Kelly Clarkson, right? It's it's first season and now she then she becomes a mega star.

48:29 Um What? I mean you didn't want to be on T V, right? You were It just said It sounds like you were just it wasn't

48:37 It wasn't interesting to you. But the thing about being on TV because I was on T V for two years back in in in as a reporter twenty years ago. It's a completely different beast. Like there's a there's a charisma you have to find, you've got to jump out of the camera. Yeah. And some people have it.

48:55 And some people really have to work on it. And learn it. It it doesn't you don't come across as like a two dimensional person in that Like you come across as somebody very comfortable on TV.

49:07 So w but was it uncomfortable for you? No. Because I'd done so many auditions. in my life because we were always creating bands and groups, you know, that was all we ever used to do. I mean I spent most of my year auditioning people and I knew what auditions were like, you know, they were like

49:27 most of the time people aren't very good, you have to be honest. They're pretty quick. And what I wasn't gonna do was change who I was just because I was on TV. I wasn't going to lie to these people and say, oh, I think you're amazing and everything's going to happen, because I knew the reality, you know, which is hard enough if you can sing. I mean it's impossible if you can't sing. So I was just frustrated that first year thinking, I just want to find a star. And if we don't find a start, I'm gonna look really stupid. So I'm getting increasingly frustrated. You were just doing what you would already been doing at auditions, which were not filmed. You would

50:03 get people together and you would give them feedback and the feedback was just very blunt and And then you were doing the same thing. It's not like you created a persona of like This harsh Guy, it's you were just doing what you do. I always respected tough love.

50:20 And I did make that very clear, by the way, when I agreed to do the show in America. So look, just so we're clear, I'm not going to pretend to like people I don't like. I've just not. Yeah, and I am not judging you. May maybe a little bit. No, I'm not judging, I promise. But I I'm I'm curious about how like how that kinda played out because I think your your feedback today is slightly

50:43 Kinder. A little bit and maybe that's just'cause we're a different Yeah. But like in the earlier days and certainly, you know As it went on

50:53 You can see people are like Deeply hurt. And and and I get it. Like sometimes you would have people come on or often and they would say I'm gonna be the next I'm gonna be the biggest star in the world. And they'd come on And it would be shocking. Like they would they were so horrible. And you would think, are you delusional? And that's what you want us like most of us in our minds are like Are you delusional? But most of us wouldn't say that because we're kind of socialized not to say that. We'd say, Oh, thanks so much. That was

51:22 That was interesting. I I I think we're gonna pass. Look, I mean the point is, uh going back to what I learned, you know, becoming successful in A and R was when you first start out, you have to have a correct steer. uh because if I hadn't had that correct, if I had had somebody lying to me and saying everything which I was doing wrong was right, I never, ever, I promise you guy, would not have been able to have a successful career. If you're entering into the entertainment full stop. You've got to have Thick skin because you're gonna get so much rejection.

51:57 Um I actually think for me I would rather someone say to my face, I think your idea stinks. It's absolutely terrible and this is why it's terrible. And I'd go, Well, I'll disagree. Rather than It's wonderful.

52:12 And then as I leave the room, they go, That's the worst idea I've ever heard in my life. And you know, that does happen. I've heard it happen. And to give you an example, when I talked about setting up that fur very first business, you know. Uh when I ha uh got that job at EMI. Uh, and we you know, it was a tiny little business and we needed um backing, you know, by by getting money from each territory to give us an advance against earnings. That was the business kind of model. So we had to go to America. So I turn up in my very, very early twenties to LA and I'm like, oh my God, this is unbelievable. Look at this place. It's everything and more. And I go in to meet all these people and I thought

52:56 My God, I've had 10 meetings in a row. And Everyone's gonna back me. Every single person. This is incredible. I never heard a word from any of those people, and I was really Pissed. Oh.

53:09 Because I thought wow. Every single one of you lied. Just lied. I would rather someone said Simon the reason why. We are not gonna back you is

53:20 Your songwriters aren't very good, the songs you played are terrible, you don't have a business model, uh blah blah blah blah blah, and we are not gonna risk any money about your world idea. And I would have gone I respect that. When we come back in just a moment, Simon talks about his latest project, which he says is one of the hardest things he's ever done. Stay with us, I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening. how I built this.

54:15 Welcome back to How I Built This. I'm Guy Roz. So by the mid-2000s, Simon Cowell has one of the most recognizable names in TV as the force behind American Idol, America's Got Talent, and The X Factor. And one day, while he's judging Yeah. A kid who works in a bakery named Harry Stiles Shows up to sing.

54:39 He's got a lot of charisma, you can see it already as a sixteen year old kid. I mean, of course you remember that moment because it became Harry Styles. Do you feel like when you see somebody like that you are A hundred percent airtight sure. that they that they will make it.

54:57 No. No. I think what you're looking for on a first audition is potential. You know, has this person got potential? That's the only thing I think you can say. I mean some people, you know, have better voices on their first audition, but may not have charisma. Harry had a good voice. Um

55:17 He was nowhere near the peak of you know what he could do as a as a vocalist, but you know, his charm Was just I mrazy charm. I mінhi was Sixteen He wasn't phased by seven thousand people in f you know in front of him, and he's talking to me about pies and cakes and stuff like that. I just really liked him and um That was it.

55:42 I think it was that season where the other Singers would be Yeah. H I mean was it like Uh

55:52 My sort of conspiratorial mind is like that was engineered. Like to find those guys and have them all auditioned separately. And then for them to come together and make this band one direction just seems like

56:06 Totally fantastical. Well it was it was interesting. None of them really pulped. You know, as they did on their first audition. And I remember seeing

56:16 You know, the five of those in particular just going You know We don't have room for them as individuals, but this would be crazy, crazy to lose them. And then I just turn round, you know, to the other two sitting at the table and I went, Well why don't we Put them in a band.

56:35 Hm. I mean it was quite obvious that these five just looked amazing and they had great personalities and I just thought, you know, having put together a lot of bands, you know, in my life before, I thought okay, well Maybe we just got lucky. What have we got to lose?

56:51 Um Uh so w I said look, we're we're gonna give you a lifeline. You've got two weeks to work it out. And good luck. And that was just That was it. And and this was a ban that you would eventually sign to your label Psycho, which I wanna talk

57:04 It really started in two thousand five. It psycho entertainment as a um as sort of a a a production company. Tell me a little bit about how you operate that business or or

57:20 And also Um You know appear in the shows and prepare for the shows and edit the shows and then run the business. How do you

57:31 Kind of manage your time. I've you know, I We all evolve and we find You know, how do we work best? And you know, even something as basic as working out one year. Well, how many meetings do I actually have per year? And and the number was frightening because it was over a thousand. You think about that, a thousand meetings per year.

57:52 And it's very easy, you know, three six five times three, is a thousand, you know. And you c you I don't think you can function well like that. I think you know what I've I I've learned now is less is more. Yeah. Don't do two things in the same day, you know. Whatever it is, if I'm filming, I won't take a call, won't look at an email.

58:13 I I will only concentrate on filming. And then when I'm doing something else, it has to be just that thing for the day. Whereas years ago I would be doing, you know Seven or eight different things in a day. working till seven in the morning, thinking I'm doing a great job. And I don't think I was.

58:30 And it sounds crazy, but in between all of this is How do you make everything good? You know How do you make each artist sound good? How do you make the show look good? How do you make each week better than last week? I mean, that's really that's the only thing that's going on in your head. Is that is the

58:52 The quality's gotta get better. I wonder about Just all of that time. I know you've got a child and and um and that I'm assuming changed your life, you know. I've got two kids and it does change your life. It it changes

59:09 How you see the world, but before that time. Would you have call w I mean, were you uh such a weird question, and I and I I know Brits particularly hate this question, but were you happy? I mean, would you have called yourself a happy person? I mean you were so successful outwardly, making a lot of money, you were a celebrity, traveling all over the place. I don't think so, particularly no. Nah.

59:32 I don't. Uh I did actually remember saying to myself Before Eric was born, is this as good as it gets? Because you get very stupidly get caught up. And Ratings battle. Battles urged.

59:46 chart positions, you know, I I know this is important. But I I I started to think that was more important than the quality. Um And I had to do a massive, massive shift. And luckily when Eric came along and I started to To really, I suppose.

1:00:06 Well first of all I just looked at everything He loved as a kid, and I realised that actually He still loves The Jungle Book. He loves 101 Dalmatians. He loved every movie I've ever loved. Nothing had changed. And it and it kinda reminded me actually

1:00:23 When something's good, it's good. And if it can last a generation, isn't That Your main Uh kind of.

1:00:32 Aim. Rather than trying to be so radical one week to get the ratings up that it might damage your long term brand or something, which I think we all were were guilty of at some point, you know, where now I I'm completely the opposite. I'm thinking

1:00:51 you know, if you get to twenty years with with with a show How do you get to the next twenty years? Uh and you don't do it through gimmicks or anything else. You do it by The talent has to get better. The editing's gotta get better. Everything has to get better.

1:01:07 You know, that's the kind of the the drive I still have. What what is where does the drive come from? Is it you against yourself? Is it you against I don't know, someone else or an uh or idea of of what People ahead of you. Because you're driven by something.

1:01:26 that keeps you go like you could stop working now and it would of course that wouldn't be interesting because working is interesting, but but but you are still I wonder if you're still chasing something. I'm always chasing something. I'm doing something at the moment. where I am really putting myself in the public eye to prove that I can do something I was well known for doing a few years ago, but I haven't done it recently. And

1:01:53 I did it. to prove a point, I think to myself That I either can or can't do it. A ne a new boy band? Yeah. Yeah. And I did it, you know, not with any, you know, um buffer in any form whatsoever. It was

1:02:12 This is when we are gonna launch it and this is gonna see if If we get enough people to audition and And if we don't get enough people we're gonna have to do what I used to do years ago and just promote, promote, promote and to the point on the first day, genuinely guy, I had no idea whether there was gonna be two people or four hundred people waiting for me. I just didn't know. And it was absolutely terrifying.

1:02:36 And then When I finish the auditions. because I'd only auditioned them once, I honestly didn't know whether they were any good or not. I just didn't know. And so it uh there were times when I was making this thinking, why have I put myself through this? And I suppose it's because. You know, when I'm when I'm sitting on a show

1:02:56 and people want my opinion. I don't want them to base that opinion on something I did ten years ago or twenty years ago, because I'm not really interested in that. I'm only really interested in what I'm I'm doing today and tomorrow. And and to launch this this idea of launching a search for a new band and by the way, I think you have found the band, right? The band's created. Is it is it public yet?

1:03:17 No. No. Okay. So When will when will it be made public? I think round about Maybe the end of the year, I'm thinking.

1:03:24 Got it. Okay. So from everything I read it was a struggle. It's probably is a struggle, right? To find the right mix of guys, right, to Who can do this? It's it's One of the hardest things I've ever done.

1:03:38 And with the pressure. That This is all being documented. And if this goes wrong, this is gonna be really, really embarrassing. But I think, you know, and I was thinking about this before we you know we we we're having this conversation today, because I was thinking, you know, we're gonna touch on this. And I I do think As much as I don't like thinking about the past, I do love That hustle.

1:04:03 I used to have to do on a daily basis because it was That Well you don't survive. I mean, you know, I wasn't left any money. I I didn't really make any money until I was in my thirties. Uh, I had to really kind of just Hustle everything.

1:04:20 And I really loved it. And so when I s I like to sometimes put myself back in that position where the odds are against me. And Can we make it work? Without any guarantee. It's kind of This weird trill.

1:04:36 I still care. I s I don't know why, but I do. Simon, when you think about the journey you've taken, right, from the from you know dropping out and mailroom and And here you are now.

1:04:49 Right. I mean, Certainly one of the most well known if not the Best known kind of music executive. in in in the world, maybe.

1:05:01 Um How how much of that Do you attribute to how hard you worked and how much do you think had to do with Just luck and circumstance.

1:05:11 Everything. You have to have luck. I think you have to work hard. I mean, there's no question about that. Um, I mean, you know, what I called the hustle, that was the hard work. I mean, you know Yeah, when I was promoting that first record, I would be

1:05:27 You know, driving hours to clubs all over the country every single night, you know, just to get my record in front of an audience. It was the only way. So the idea of not doing that meant failure. So I just no one else is gonna do it for me.

1:05:42 Because I had no resources. So it was just That it was single swim. Yeah. You know this. Hope.

1:05:51 It's worked because I've also had amazing people working with me. You know, I've just been very, very fortunate. And I I do believe I've been a good mentor, and many people have been an amazing mentor to me as well. I really believe in that whole mentorship thing, you know, which is you know, someone comes in without much experience and you know you hope that after working with you for say ten years

1:06:18 They're gonna go on and do wonderful things on their own. I get a real kick out of that. That's music mogul. Simon Cow By the way, when it comes to musical recommendations One of Simon's favorite influencers?

1:06:34 Is his own son who is now eleven. I mean he came to me about three years ago really excited. came running into my door. Dad, you're gonna hear this band. They're really good And he plays me a One Direction song. I know this band. No you don't. I said, Why yeah I do. I how do you know them? I said, Well I used to work with them And no you didn't. And you must have found out afterwards, but Seriously, you were but yeah.

1:07:01 But it was I I I was very flaccid because he the song still sounds good today, you know, and I that's what I think we've been talking a lot about today is that I like to feel the You know, the things I'm most proud of are the things that have lasted the longest. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. Please make sure to click the follow button on your podcast app so you never miss a new episode of the show. And please sign up for my newsletter at guyros.com or on Substack.

1:07:32 This episode was produced by Josh Lash with music composed by Ramte Erblue. It was edited by Neva Grant with research from Iman Ma'ani. Our audio engineers were Patrick Murray and Jimmy Keeley. Our production staff also includes Catherine Seifer, Carla Estevez, Casey Herman, JC Howard, Sam Paulson, Alex Chung, Carrie Thompson, Andrea Bruce, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening.

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