#759: Nassim Nicholas Taleb and Todd McFarlane

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4:30 Yeah. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to sit down with world class performers. From every field imaginable to tease out the habits. routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply. And test in your own lives.

4:52 This episode is a two for one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its tenth year anniversary, which is insane to think about. And past one billion downloads. To celebrate I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favorites. From more than seven hundred episodes over the last decade.

5:10 I could not be more excited. To give you these super combo episodes, and internally we've been calling these The Super Combo episodes. Because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks. But to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider

5:26 Stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps They got lost in a busy news cycle, perhaps you missed an episode. Just trust me on this one, we went to great pains to put these pairings together.

5:42 And for the bios of all guests. You can find that and more at Tim.blog slash combo. And now, without further ado. Please enjoy. And thank you.

5:52 For listening. First up. The theme Nicolas Taleb Best selling author of Anti-fragile

6:01 The Black Swan. Fooled by randomness. The bed of Procruste. And skin in the game. Nassim is joined in this conversation by Scott Patterson.

6:11 Wall Street Journal investigative reporter And author of Chaos Kings How Wall Street Traders Make Billions in the New Age of Crisis. You can find the theme on Twitter.

6:24 That N N Taleb. And you can find Scott on Twitter. At Patterson Scott

6:32 Is it true that you wrote a resignation letter? your first day at a trading job and put it in your desk drawer. I read this on the internet. I don't know if it's true. You can't believe everything you read, but it was from The Guardian, so I thought it might be credible. One thing is uh actually that said I recommend people do that. I wrote that but not on the day I started. But I

6:53 recommended that people'cause you you feel relief when you do it. Because Then you can continue on your job without feeling Like someone's controlling you. You've got the gun loaded. The whole idea of flying behind you thought about about that problem.

7:07 So you write the recognition letter and you Don't date it. Ha ha ha. And very. Fascinated by your

7:16 Ways of thinking. The way that you've embraced different philosophies. And you emailed me an aphorism in two thousand ten. And uh you can correct me if I get any of the wording wrong, but it stuck with me. This is in two thousand ten.

7:31 Here's the aphorism or the quote. Robustness is when you care more about the few who like your work than the multitude who hates it. And then a parentheses artists. Fragility is when you care more about the few who hate your work than the multitude. And then quotation marks politicians. Have you always had that type of robustness or resilience criticism. Is that something that is inborn?

7:57 Maybe because I was Never really someone who took You know, established the ideas at face value. So you necessarily have You know, it violates some norms, some thinking norms.

8:11 And often people protect those norms by, you know, attacking a reputation. And I realized that uh while riding food by randomness, I say, Hey saying that what I'm doing is random or using the wrong models, it don't work. So they attack your reputation. So I realized quickly It was time. Yeah, my reputation was gonna be under some

8:30 And I decided that no, my reputation is how Few important people. Or people who know Something about the subject. Jummy.

8:41 And it's not like I don't care about reputation, I only care about reputation in some circles. And it was people I can talk to To try to explain what it's about. And it has worked out.

8:54 So but if you have to go defend your reputation And you've done the right thing. It's too much energy wasted. And it's not gonna help. Haters are gonna hate.

9:03 This resembles another aphorism inspired by Charlie Mungers uh one of Charlie Mungers, is that Do you want to be the most Ethical person. What people think that you're corrupt?

9:14 Well you might be the most corrupt person. Or do you think that you're ethical? Make your choice. And use it as a guideline. It's the same thing. So except you know there's something in between and that there's some people

9:27 I care about. And I want'em to not lose respect for me. Of course you start with your mother, if you have your children or whatever your family members but there are also there's a lot a lot of people on the planet and I care about North Nation, but in these circles. Not with The general public.

9:44 So it allows you to take much, much more aggressive positions, which I've done over A long life. And Mark, for example, has a lot of enemies. And they're gonna pick on something, and we don't care, so you're doing the right things. And how do you know you're doing the right thing if people you respect? A prove.

10:01 Of your action. Not as the general public thus. What are some of the things that make Let's see him different. Or unique in those you've interacted with. I have some of my own questions and and thoughts on this, but I won't I would love to hear yours.

10:14 He mentioned his contrarian nature. It's not a contrarian nature, it's uh independent. So in line with I mean people think I'm contrarian. I'm I'm with a conspiracy theorist on many of the things. I'm against on many other things. Some are just contrarian because they have a father problem. Okay. So to me a contrarian is is is an explicit explicit rather than uh attribute. So but the other thing is I thought it was not gonna be about me, it should be about the idea, the precaution and he's a lot more interested in

10:44 literature and philosophy and Not financial market. Drives him. He doesn't look at the stock market page. You know, every day like some people do. He's No, no, you you have to figure out what people envy yourself of.

10:59 So You know, if you're in a hedge fund business and and you have five hundred million dollars in a bank and someone else has six hundred million dollars, you're gonna be envious of that person. I was always envious of people who had more erudition than me. Okay, so more erodes. And you realize that's that's what

11:16 Makes me thick. Being envious is not good. You see? But at the same time If you figure out Who is them to envy? I don't believe in this as you say, oh people having enough. There's someone here from East Hampton.

11:28 The fellow who wrote Cash Twenty Two. A lot of interesting folks out there. Yeah, he met the uh financier at the time for hedge funds. And uh the financier said, What is it that About you. Well it was an author, a very successful one. What is it that

11:45 Distinguishes you from me. He told them. I know the meaning of enough. So in other words you know your upper bound. And effectively I don't play that game, meaning I may.

11:56 Literally and I Say envious people who are erudes. Like if someone knows Latin Very well. I'm I'm envious. Someone knows Sanskrit. I'm envious.

12:07 Right. And I discovered that early on. So I made money on Wall Street because I wanted to make money on Wall Street, but I didn't think it was worth the effort. And luckily with the combination of Universal I had so much leverage, you know, was marketing and all the stuff, so the spillover on me was more than satisfactory. So I have knock on wood a lot more than I w wished. So part of the reason I'm asking we're we're talking about the ideas, but the person who's acting as the vessel or communicator of these ideas, the developer of these ideas is integrally related to, I think the sort of totality that I want to explore. So part of what interests me about

12:43 your story and your thinking is how various inputs have impacted You're thinking around. Not just markets, but other things. For instance. Like the

12:53 Stoics and the Seneca the younger and so on, or other philosophical inputs. Did those come early and then aid you you think in your career when you're active in the markets or did those come later and you sort of always had a deep interest but were able to explore them?

13:12 At least. No, it's actually I was I started liking the stoics and those people I've talked about, I like them much early on in my life. But I went overboard. For every idea I've had. I did the exact opposite of what one should do is like if you had an idea, say, Oh, I have this idea, right? Because I I don't consider myself so different from others.

13:33 And then particularly when you look at history of So many tens and thousands of scholars surviving works. So I went back and figured out of these scholars. Who had Similar ideas or who preceded the ideas.

13:47 Yeah. So and who starts things like that. So I went into the The Empire's the uh Eastern Mediterranean Greco uh Levantine Greco Roman mostly used in Greek language. Thinkers. And then of course And to others, this uh fundamental skepticism because I notice a lot of people are skeptical, particularly conspiracy theorists, they're skeptical of

14:07 Small things. But not about big ones. All right. They get taken for a ride. It's find me a conspiracy theorist or find me someone who's Naturally skeptic of all things. And I'll show you a turkey. So I wanted to find people who were fundamentally skeptic, being skeptical to be skeptic about important things, not about small things.

14:25 That would be an example of a big thing. Let me give you an example. I wrote a paper it it never ended up in a book On the stock market. And religion. All right. It's called the Bishop. And the economist.

14:38 And I said that those who are sceptical about The existence of God, the non existent sceptical about religious matters. Typically tend to be complete. Suckers. When it comes to stocks.

14:50 They believe in a stock market or believe in some kind of pseudo scientific theory. On whatever it is. Okay. So but they don't believe in religion. And the reverse, right? And people who are religious typically they're harder and there's some I don't know the research on that. There's a guy called Barlahmi Harlahmi. Bar Halahmi, I think, who did some studies about skepticism, people go to religion about affairs skepticism where it matters. And I wrote about it, I think in the Black Swan says Skepticism where it matters. And I noticed that a lot of these big sceptics

15:20 We're not sceptical of God and things anyway we can't do anything about. They were skeptical of The Charlatan. The skeptical of someone trying to take take advantage of you. That's where you should exercise your skepticism. Among the great skeptics there is a Bishop Ue. He was probably one of the second most erudite person of his time.

15:39 Second one's guy called Scaliger. He the guy's phenomenal. He could Translate. And to Arabic. Roman authors. Latin authors, and vice versa.

15:49 Okay, Scaliger. Scalijeri. There are a lot of the S Pierre Bail. Pierre Bale. Has a lot of works. He's one of those uh sceptics. Hume was one of those sceptics, but these people preceded Hume. Hume is known because he wrote and

16:04 A language of a country that had a lot of ships. And a lot of trade, you know, across the world. But a lot of these ideas came from uh groups of people In France or among Protestants in France? What's called the Fideists? Originates of course in the Levant, and of course you have the great Al Gazelle. The Islamic theologian, Iranian origin.

16:25 Who definitely was showing you how ho all these arguments Are weak. you know, could dismantle arguments. About God. A lot of it's like. Spinoza is coming out of that.

16:39 Spinoza came. He was skeptical about the text. That was these people say okay, trustend these texts, okay, and be skeptical about things that really matter. And there was actually a skeptical school of medicine, practicing medicine. So what? I went back through history, every time I've had an idea, I would go back And see in history who preceded me, and sure enough I haven't done enough because

17:03 Every year or so I get a letter from someone, Hey, how come you missed So and so. Okay. And sure enough, I go back to the inserto and I add that person. And this is why it it has survived the uh Five books, the insert all. But we're not here to talk about these five books, but this book.

17:20 Yeah. Well, we're gonna talk about whatever comes up, but I do wanna hop over To you, Scott. And maybe discuss something that you had shared with me as a possible bullet. In

17:33 the prep stages for this conversation, which is related to poly crisis. and uh the new age of crisis. What does this refer to? It's the subtitle of my book. Most people have focused on the first part of the subtitle is how Wall Street Traders Make Billions. Second part is in the new age of crisis.

17:53 I feel like that hasn't gotten That much attention but part of What I'm trying to argue. Is that We are seeing a magnification of extreme events.

18:04 accelerating and overlapping. There's a economist, Adam Touz, who's coined a phrase called the poly crisis. Which he says these crises that are happening on a global scale are Interacting in ways that the whole becomes Greater, worse.

18:20 Than the sum of the parts. So you've got Pandemics, you've got economic instability, financial crises. Climate change, which is a big focus of mine. Am I Daily job of the journal.

18:33 Which I think is sort of the Big one in terms of The ever magnification of crises that we're seeing, we're seeing it in the news every day. And

18:43 What I wanted to do in the in the book is Look at Several of these crises And Think about how

18:53 We should be approaching them in a sort of a a risk mitigation. From people like Nassim. I think the the central idea was as I was talking about the germ of the idea of the book was Can you take

19:07 ideas that were created on Wall Street for risk mitigation And borrow those and apply those to other forms of risk management. And What Nassim and Mark do is they think about the extreme events

19:25 And how to protect against them. I see him Co wrote a paper about this exact issue called The Precautionary Principle. It delineates specific categories of risk. That

19:37 You should take the precautionary principle and apply it to He has some specific ideas and he can talk about it way better than I can. But you know, these are things that can be Global that represents systemic risk to humanity.

19:49 Things that can be exponential. Exponential things that have these properties. That you need to take extreme precaution. And not take that risk. Basically don't Play Russian roulette with these risks. And that's kind of how the book was structured was

20:06 First looking at the The growth of the strategy. With Mark and Seem. And then moving on to these other things that the world is facing.

20:17 And seeing if we could think about ways to protect against these risks, something like climate change. You don't really want to mess with that. You know, it's a bit too late, but there's still lots of things that we can do. And that's

20:30 I think the book in a nutshell I was gonna mention earlier when you asked me about the birth of the i idea of the book When I first suggested it to Nassim and Mark The seems said, No way, I'm not I have no interest in in doing that with you. It took a while. And then you were like, I have these black and white photos you might want to take a look at. So I had you convinced him to do it. It was uh Wore him down, I think it was more Mark.

20:56 Put the screws on. No, let me tell you what happened. I actually don't know. I know that we've actually extracted the promise from him. Uh to not be portrayed. So mentioned that I don't self identify as a

21:09 Finance versus And once he Made that promise. Said, okay, now we can talk because finance represents significant part of my life.

21:19 But this has been a theme with Nassim ever since I've known him. So to me it was like the identity piece. Yeah, that he's an identity creator and I and I thought I agreed because it's true. It's he's not been a trader for a long, long time. And it's obvious where you know, where his interests are and

21:37 What would it mean or feel like for you to be broadly identified as a finance person, but to Think of yourself more as a scholar. I wrote about it in Four Bow Randers. George Soros, and I met George Soros. One of the persons on the planet who impressed me the most. One of those.

21:54 And I realized that George Soros Mr. Career. He wanted to be A philosopher and a thinker. Okay, he ended up making money and spending too much time in it, and wrote drunk articles and books.

22:08 Or is it one boat? Yeah. It was not it was not Not what he wanted out of life. Okay, he's a middle European intellectual who Und like to be remembered as someone for

22:20 Well ideas. And he had of course Carl Popper, who he claims he was his professor, but it was beyond. So I wrote one for my readers. I said

22:30 Here's this fellow who is say okay, but he also does to distinguish himself from other financiers Is also Or with l has intellectual uh aims. I said I don't want to be that. Mm-hmm.

22:41 I wanna be someone who produces Intellectual work. and who happens to have had contact with reality. Thanks to training. And thanks to

22:51 Mark. Guys I'm still have some contact with reality. But I've not cut for that. When I was writing food by Renumps, it was Two thousand nineteen.

22:59 Then I realize I was not. I don't want to be like Soros. Because unlike Buffett and the other people, source And an identity crisis. He wants to be known as a philosopher. Okay. It's a life to control of them.

23:13 He then Buffer told me he wanted to write a book. I used to cover him and I was Leaving the journal at the time to write my second book and He was like, Oh, I really always wanted to write a book and never got around to it.

23:25 So there you go with you know the Oracle of Omaha. Yeah. He wants to be thought of as an intellectual too, but not the same the same thing. has something that I didn't put on a precautionary principle. But that's probably very inspiring because he understood the asymmetry.

23:43 And if you say no a thousand times. He says no. A few doubts. And that's the precautionary principle. Could you uh

23:51 Give people the precautionary principle one on one just to back up. Okay, let me ask you. First. Flying. To go to Mexico. You go to J F K.

24:01 And they tell you they have uncertainty. About the skills of the pilot. But we think he's good, but there's uncertainty. What you do. You're not gonna get on that plane like say Okay, life is too uh important for me. Mm-hmm.

24:14 You take a train, you'll you walk, maybe you ride a bicycle, you know, take a few months. But you're not gonna get all that blame. Okay, you change your plans and say, Okay, there are other plans or other countries too and other planes. That's Warren Buffett with his investments.

24:28 Well that's my propercussion principle, the idea that there's an asymmetry. Is that our certainty about certain things is not good. So the climate. For example. If you have uncertainty about the climate, stop these models.

24:41 All right, just don't pollute. Try to use something else. Try to mitigate. So that's the first Part of it. People get it right away when I give them a story of a plane. Or I take water. This is less water on the table. There's no evidence that it's poisonous. Would you drink it? No, there's no evidence that you spook me. There's no evidence that so but when you tell them hey, you know you should worry about GMOs, this is there's no evidence they're harmful. Yeah, but there's no evidence

25:07 There's not harmful. Okay. So the asymmetry, where you put the burden. of the asymmetry on. That's the precautionary principle. But then what we did is we noticed a lot of people in fact it was a counter Precautionary principle with a lot of people invoking it for nothing. To say we're gonna have a non naive precautionary principle by delineating

25:28 Where you should exercise such precaution. Systematically as a planet or as a Communal group. And what I'll say, number one You need fat tails. Now what does Fatel mean? Let me explain to you.

25:41 Let's say you go to planet Mars. Okay, Elon would help you get it there. You have connection? And you have no news from Earth. And then on the way back you hear that a billion people died.

25:55 Okay. Which one is more likely To be the cause. Et bon là Or

26:02 Card accidents. No, but on a given day If you hear Joe Smith died today. What's more like the Ebola or a car accident? Car accident. Car accident. That's fat tails. Fat tails.

26:15 You have to identify things in backwards. If you hear of a big thing Where did it come from? Yeah, you have to get these. Okay. So they have different dynamics. Because it scale differently. So

26:26 In the Black Swan, I show the difference with the following metaphor. There are environments. Where You may have a large deviation, but it's not going to be consequential because it can't be very big. So if I take a thousand people

26:40 And put'em on a scale. And add to that. Sample. The largest human being you can find on the planet, how much of the total will he or she represent? Tes thirty basis point nothing, okay.

26:51 And then if you go from a thousand to ten thousand. Dilutes completely. So you can have a televent. That's not going to be consequential. Extremistan is different. Extremistan If you gather a thousand people and add to that sample

27:04 The wealthiest person on the planet. How much of the total will he or she represent? All of it. There'll be a running error. I mean there'll be on average on The planet Earth, all right? That'd be in total, maybe they have two or three million in total, and then you have hundred and some billion. Right, next way. So this is where you have to focus on environment that produces fat tails.

27:24 And this is what Mark did universal. Universal is named after the universal mechanism. That generates fat tails. That was the name of the car. So everything we we're in it basically is intellectually everything, all details. So we have to identify what produces that deals. And the financial markets.

27:41 And why it's gotta thicker it. Fat tails means that you have the greatest contribution comes from smallest number of events. So concentration. Like for example, you have a lot of people, all the wealth come from one person. It so happened that On the fat tails.

27:56 The models. that we use for risk management on Wall Street, R B S. This is why I have a lot of enemies. This is why I have to protect myself against Reputational damage, all right. So Because all the economists say me, all their models are based on on that.

28:10 So what what does that deal? Practically everything in the socio economy. Life is fat tailed. What is not fat tail? Number of calories we're gonna eat tonight. How many colours can we have in one day?

28:20 Tonight. We can only go for the gold, I'd say. I'd say we could each down two thousand calories a piece. Two thousand two thousand say I go three thousand for me, all right. I can play with fat and stuff. Three thousand. That's nothing. How many calories do I consume a year?

28:34 Yeah. Not a single day is gonna make a difference. Can you lose all your money in a single day? Yes. There we go. So you have two environments and they're separable. So this is why The universal uh approach, it makes things separable. The fact that you can identify what is fat tail.

28:49 You identify where models don't work, and you can identify where you have to understand and you have to use more refined Tools to figure out Stuff. And then also in fatness of tails. Number one.

29:01 Pandemics. Number two wars. I've close. Close second. Wars and pandemics. Okay. And so you can use that to prioritize Application of the precautionary principle or Bingo. And let me tell you how.

29:13 For example. Pf Cancer is thintails. Nuclear, than tail. If you could diversify it, it's entails.

29:21 If you can have a thousand nuclear reactors, all right. If you can ensure it. Rather than one? In a centel, if you can ensure it. If it can insure it, non insurable?

29:32 Fatell. So a lot of things that are Believed to be very risky, but they're not. Like nuclear for me. I mean not for one one of my co authors, but we'll I'll settle it with them with a beer or What's in English?

29:45 Ruper Reed is a co author of the And also a major character in the book. He's a very environmentally focused person. He's a leader in climate these days. And uh yeah, he told me that's one thing that he Disputed. The precautionary principle paper was Nasim. Which was written with him first drinking, you know, uh single mosque. Single mosque.

30:08 in somewhere in northern England where the portions are like smaller than the what They give you for espresso in Italy, you know, the espresso like you sip'em. So we had to have like Again, it's like with you you and the eggs, all right. So to go back to the insurable, we don't have to worry about it. In a very simple example I give that when Ebola started Or and later on when Covid started. People were using the arguments, Yeah, you know, three thousand Americans die. Every year drowning in a swimming pool. That was something by the guy called Dr. Phil.

30:38 Should we shut down pools? At the time less than a thousand Americans had died of Covid. And then I followed this present the following argument. I said if I die drowning in a swimming pool. My neighbor drowning in her or his swimming pool.

30:53 Has not changed. If I die of Covid, the odds of my neighbor dying of Covid has increased. So you have that transmission that makes it fat tail. that mechanism of transmission. So this is why you cannot compare

31:05 As basically the press in the beginning, the so called established press. was against our uh ideas. Because it was racist against China, they could not Distinguish between Risks of car accidents and heart attacks.

31:20 And risk of things ready. This is why, for example, I am in favor of vaccines. The risk of scent tailed. And I'm against GMOs. Because they spread in the environment.

31:31 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Mementis. Mementus offers high quality supplements and products across a broad spectrum of categories, including sports performance, sleep, cognitive health, hormone support, and more. I've been testing their products for months now, and I have a few that I use constantly. Personally I've been using Mementus Mag38 Ltheanine and Apigenin, all of which have helped me to improve the onset quality and duration of my sleep. Now, the Mementus Sleep Pack conveniently delivers single servings of all three of these ingredients. Mementus also partners with some of the best minds in human performance to bring world class products to market. including a few you will recognize from this podcast, like Dr. Andrew Huberman and Dr. Kelly Starrett. Their products contain high quality ingredients that are third party tested, which in this case means informed sport and or NSF certified, so you can trust that what is on the label is in the bottle and nothing else. So check it out.

32:33 visit LivMomentus.com slash Tim and use code TICKO for twenty percent off. That's Livemomentous. L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash Tim and code Tim for twenty percent off. And now Todd McFarlane

32:54 Emmy and Grammy winning director and producer. Co-creator of Marvel's top villain, Venom. Co founder of Image Comics. And creator of Spawn. One of the world's best selling comic books.

33:08 And one that earned Todd the Guinness World Record. For longest running creator owned Superhero comic book series. You can find Todd on Instagram. That

33:19 Todd McFarlane. Todd. Welcome to the show. Nice to see you. Tim, thanks for having me this morning. Appreciate it. And

33:27 I thought we could start with a confession on my side, which is Ever since I was a kid and to this day, I still have a poster of the Incredible Hulk number three forty, Gray Hulk versus Wolverine, that features your artwork. And I am a longtime collector and fan of your work. So it's exciting to have you here and I'm excited to to dig into all sorts of things. And I thought we would begin and this might be a dead end. We'll see where it goes. But

33:55 Asking about how Baseball Informed. Your approach to

34:02 Art and Comics, if at all. If those two things tie together for you. So here's what I would say about that and I'll I'll give you a little bit of back history. I would say it informed me more On the

34:15 eventual business side. The competitiveness on the business side. So It's always interesting when you do certain interviews or you're with people I w always sort of think that sometimes interviews are like laying on a psychologist

34:30 Couch and they're like, Todd. Why are you like that? What drives you? Here's the answer to that question, so we can get that out of the way. I think it was the day I came out of the womb and it was in my DNA. There's not a single day I don't recall not being taught. So

34:46 What is natural for me I guess for other people,'cause I now understand as I get older. Their personalities. That my personality has been baked every day of my life and it's not an effort to do what I've done in life.

34:59 Right. So people go, Oh my God, you're so tenacious and you go up against people and you're such a rebel and you you fight for what you believe in Of course there's no other option in my brain. So it's not I'm not fighting, I just there's no other option. So it's just a natural progression on where I want to go. But I would argue that whatever that DNA is got enhanced with two things. One I have

35:24 A brother that was a year older and one a year younger. And then you get three boys together. What are you talking about? Every day was a competition. Who could eat the cereal the fastest, who could jump the most steps down who could run to school the fast what do you talk about? Everything is a competition. And then You take that and eventually I was never gonna go to

35:44 University. I remember being in class when they brought in high school they brought the Yeah. The recruit in the college and they sort of talk and I go, Well, I'm not going so I'll just put my head down and continue drawing'cause I was always doodling. And then somebody tapped me on the shoulder, I remember, and they went

35:59 Sean? Why is your arm not raised? And I'm like What? Like what I I wasn't even paying attention, sadly. And I go, Well what what was the question? They're going, Well who wants to go to college? And I Looked up and every single

36:13 person in my class had their arm up. Now That's okay. But I looked at the two sort of drugies that I know'cause I'm friends with all of them. And I'm looking at them going What are you talking about? You're not going to college. You got F's like across the board. You might even drop out in grade twelve. So, anyways, I gave him my

36:33 reason which is I don't enjoy education. And so let's just convert it to broccoli. And let's say I don't like broccoli. Why would I then go and pay people money to to eat more broccoli. Doesn't make much sense, does it? So I go, I'm not going. Now

36:50 Did I go to college? Of course I did. Why? Because I'm an athlete. And so I played baseball, getting back to your question, and somebody offered me a scholarship. to go to play baseball. So my last three years I was on a Pac Ten baseball scholarship. And at some point Now you have to get sort of simplistic. If somebody's gonna give you free

37:11 Education. I'm gonna grab it. Did I want it? Not really. But if it's free, I'm gonna grab it. And oddly

37:19 Tim. Of the twenty five guys on our team. Only two of us graduated with a degree in four years. And the other guy was I'm Canadian, the other guy was Canadian. I remember the coach going,'cause Canadians don't want to hustle as much in sports, right? Because we got a degree. Like what are you talking about was free. And the reason I took it and I got it done for free because

37:39 The dumb athlete was alive and well, but they're not really dumb. They just don't go to class. And if you don't go to class, you don't get your marks. And if you don't get your marks, then eventually you don't get your degree. Here's the funny thing about that. Somebody is offering you a free degree And twenty three of my teammates decided they wouldn't get it in four years.

37:58 So either they would never get a degree or Yeah. Gun to my head. This is weird. They're gonna come back. And pay.

38:06 To finish it. I go finish it. The buffet was open the whole time you were there and you chose not to eat. Like oh my gosh. So if nothing else, given that I'm sort of a cheapskate I'm going to they're gonna give it to me for free. I'm not paying another penny to come back here. I'll take that degree. So I got my degree and I was off to the races. Now between the baseball, which is competitive

38:27 And that my brothers Then all of a sudden yeah, three weeks before I graduate I end up getting my first job in comic books. And

38:36 All of that sort of made me a freelancer, and I had to begin taking care of myself. And it's like okay, it's just another game. Another game of competition. First job in comic books, you've posted I wanna say photographs of three hundred and fifty or so rejection letters. When did you first start sending those out? And did you get any particularly helpful feedback that allowed you to modify things so that you were able to get that first job? Yes.

39:06 So let's go through it real quick. Did I get Over three hundred rejections. Yes. Is that

39:14 Tenacious is that determination or is that delusion? Like how many like at what point do you say I'm gonna be an opera singer and that and you g people keep giving you no's and you go Man, looking out determinant is at what point do you say maybe I just can't sing opera. Right. But Again, so there's a fine line. People give me way too much credit for those three hundred. I think a normal same person with sort of less enthusiasm, we'll leave it at that work. than me would have probably at two hundred rejections found another option to make money.

39:45 But The reason I was able to assimilate that many rejections was because I was going to college. Mm. So I was sending off samples almost Continuously.

39:56 While I was in in school. So it's like I didn't have a job. I was going to school. So I didn't care. I had four years to basically try and get a job. And then at probably at the end of those four years, I was gonna look at that pile and say, Maybe I need to find something else. My degree is I thought is in graphic designing And I thought I was gonna be the guy who's gonna do Michelin Tire ads. I go, That's okay, it's a admirable job, but you know, it's a Graphic designer. That was sort of where I thought the reality of it was gonna be.

40:23 But three weeks before I graduate I get my first job. And how did I get it? By sending literally Seven hundred samples. Over the course of those four years. And just

40:35 On one level I think I just wore them out. Because I send it to every Editor. At every Company.

40:43 They used to have let's say at Marvel,'cause my first job was at Marvel, they have like one submission editor. No, no, no, no, no. The people who give you the work are the editors and they have sixteen editors. So I would send it to all sixteen editors. Ultimately, I went around the submission guy. I just went, what, you gotta give it to the editors anyways. Might as well send it directly to the editors. So I would keep sending it to the editors over and over and over to every company. Every editor and I think

41:10 Tim in hindsight, I think that they probably had a board meeting or whatever, one of those Monday morning meetings and they just said something like Said Oh for the love of God. That Todd Kid

41:22 That punk they keep sending us, we keep getting like a box of mail from this guy every two weeks. Would somebody in this room give him A couple pages just so we don't have to open up his mail every two weeks. I think I just I think I just wore him out. And I got the job. Literally three weeks before I graduated. So I never even had to use my degree. What

41:43 informed me in those. Yeah. All constructive criticism, let me tell you. 'Cause people say, Oh Todd, you got the last lap. No no no Everything they put in those letters was constructive criticism because the people who just thought that I was not very good through my portfolio and my samples and the garbage. So everybody who took the time to write back

42:04 Actually gave a little bit of Insight. And so what I would do They didn't know it was actually gonna keep me fueled is that I would take

42:14 that insight and then redo another batch and send it to everybody again. So you know, where I was making 20 mistakes, eventually got down to eighteen and then sixteen and then fifteen. And I think probably when I was at six mistakes I think they finally said, Hey He's getting better. He's not perfect. And he seems to be enthusiastic.

42:36 So somebody give him a chance, see what he can do. So for people who don't have any familiarity with comic books, penciling, anything along these lines, What were some of the things you were getting feedback on and getting better at? And I suppose this this leads into the question, like, what does it look like as a comic book artist to get better? What are you getting better at? Maybe that sounds like a silly question, but I'll give it a shot. There's two things.

42:59 That I think make a good artist in the comic book. industry. Pure drawing skills. Right. So there are

43:09 hundreds, if not thousands, of people who who can draw circles around me. If you can just draw pretty pictures, you can go a long way. The second piece Is Storytelling.

43:20 And if you can do great storytelling and be average drawer, you're still gonna have a pretty good career. Because people then will be Entertained. By everything you do. So I'll use an example and and I hope

43:34 'Cause I'm friends with him. I hope he doesn't take it. Frank Miller is a great great story. He's the one that wrote The Dark Night for Batman. He's the one that You know create it three hundred that ended up getting turned into a movie in Sin City.

43:48 And all these things. He he rejuvenated dead characters like Daredevil. I wouldn't say and I think Frank would agree that he's not the best anatomically correct Artist. And his drawings don't get every muscle.

44:02 Right. What he does. Is he tells stories better than anybody else in our industry, period. So he could do it with stickman and you would still be engaged.

44:14 Because of his writing. The way he does it and what's happening in it. So Frank has been able to take that storytelling, which to me as I've gotten older is way more important than whether you've got flashy lines. I came in as a kid who wanted to do flashy lines'cause it would People go, Oh my God, look at all the detail he's doing.

44:32 But then I found out that really what they wanted was Less flash and more clarity. on the pages, right? You should be able to give a comic book Two A non comic book writer.

44:44 Go next door to your neighbor, give it to your mom. And at the end they should be able to say Hm. You know, not my cup of tea, I don't collect comic books, but that was kind of interesting because they understood what they were supposed to be reading in the sequence. they were supposed to be reading it. And if you don't do that, you're no good.

45:01 In our industry. One more thing. If you can't keep a deadline. Yeah. Then you're for sure not good at anything. As a matter of fact, people who can keep a deadline

45:10 in an industry that is driven by monthly deadlines. can have long careers and not be very good at drawing because you have to get product out every 30 days. So Go ahead, if you want to be the kid that's flashy and drew do a bunch of lines and take twice as long, but they're never gonna give you a regular gig because you have to get books. Out on time. Period. Out.

45:35 And I'm embarrassed that I don't know this, but I never made it far enough. Uh You can still lead a product productive life, don't worry. I'm working on it. Working on the productive side. Uh but What are the deliverables on a monthly basis? Are you shipping out a few pages at a time? Are they waiting until you have the entire Book done, so to speak. What do the actual Deadlines and deliverables look like for a full time. Comic book artist.

46:01 So it has shifted as you can imagine with technology. Yeah. So the way that it used to work and I'll age myself'cause I got into the business sort of pre internet. I'd have to do my pages. Take'em to the ID phone FedEx

46:16 And they were called Federal Express at that point. And so I would have to phone Federal Express. When I use FedEx, my wife go, Oh, you're so hip calling them FedEx. And then eventually they caught on. So you'd phone FedEx, they'd either come and pick it up or sometimes you would miss the call on their deadline. They were the drivers were past I was living in a remote area up in Canada on an island in Canada. And so if I missed a driver, which is why I hired an assistant to help

46:41 sort of package stuff up. He would drive to the airport, which was about an hour and fifteen away. While I was finishing up pages. So I go, oh, I've got another hour. And then we drive to the airport. Do you know how many times I ran down the tarmac because it was a little sort of prop plane that flew to Vancouver, British Columbia. And they were I think it was always looking over his shoulder going, Todd to be here in about two minutes. And I'd be running down the tarmac.

47:05 And I'd basically throw my package to him and he'd get it done. Today. All of that's taken away because now you can scan your pages and hit a literally a download. Boom, it's gone. It doesn't solve anything, Tim. All it means is you just get to push

47:20 Your luck with deadlines. Later and later. So let's give you an example. currently happening. The biggest comic book that's gonna come out this year in our industry is a book Called Batman Spawn.

47:33 So that goes to print. Could I just talk to the people at uh DC. Comics. Yesterday. It goes to print on Monday. You and I are talking on Friday. Friday. I still have to write it's a forty eight page book. I've only written eight pages. I've got to finish writing the forty pages. There's ten pages that haven't been colored. I literally talked to the person who does the word balloons.

47:59 Sorry, dude. We gotta both work Pretty hard over the weekend. They're gonna probably get the last pages. At midnight on Sunday. They're gonna look at it, make sure nobody no pages are upside down or backwards, and then they're gonna hit send and it's gonna go to the printer and the printer's waiting.

48:14 Because When you've got a big print run,'cause it's gonna like I said, it's gonna be the biggest of this year. You can't swap out books and say ah we'll just swap out another book and you just substitute. Not They've got lots of printer presses waiting for this one book.

48:29 And it we've got to deliver. So How does it work? By our chinny chin chin, like a lot of other things in the world. You just get it done. So let me back up for a second. I think I heard you correctly. Now you have delivered so many deadlines. Even if you've chased down the plane on the tarmac, you've you know how to train obviously through the plane. So this is a huge book. Biggest in the industry of this year. Did I hear you correctly that you said you have eight pages done out of forty eight? I guess I'm just wondering if you

49:00 What does that mean? Yeah, writing wise. Okay. Wow. Tim. Tim, I'll tell you what that means. That means Before I talk to you this morning, I talked to to my what they call the letterer, the guy who actually converts your script into the word balloon. I talked to my letterer and go, dude We're going all night tonight. I'm just every three pages I'm gonna send to you. So it's gonna be I do three, I send it to him, he works on it. By the time he's done with those three, I feed him another three, and we're just gonna see How it works and We'll get it done, Tim. We'll get it done. I believe like you said earlier a couple of years ago, I set a record. I mean, Spawn is the longest running creator owned book. We're up to issue three thirty five.

49:42 That's over thirty years of doing books and now I do a monthly book every week. You just get it done. Yeah. It's just like going to the gym. Every workout isn't Awesome. But did you get your work out in? Yeah, sure. Wow. By the hair of your chiny chin chin. But nobody knows on the other side. Nobody knows. That's right. Everybody's gonna look at that book and go, man, it it is look how professionally done it was. So

50:07 Let's then come back to a word you used, which is important. And that is the longest running creator owned superhero comic book series, the creator owned piece. When and how did you decide? to start image comics because I remember as a kid I wanted to be a penciler for about ten years. So I was I was really tracking all of this. And then I was an illustrator in high school and then part of college. I actually had the I was the graphics editor at a magazine.

50:36 where Jim Lee had been the previous editor. So I had a Jim Lee had a DC Comics for those that don't know. And he had these sketches in the desk that he'd done after getting hammered in college. And I thought these were just treasures at the time. So This is a lot of fun for me to explore. And I remember image being a very big deal. So for people who have no context, can you explain Why And when you

51:00 image was founded because I think that's a big piece of the story. Look at I assume that the majority of people listening don't collect comic books and whatever, so we'll keep it simple. Everybody knows Marvel in D C. Everybody, right? If you ask the next natural question. Huh.

51:16 Who's number three? That has been image comic books. for thirty years. We were celebrating our thirtieth anniversary, so was the Spawn character,'cause it came out that first year. And we've been Number three

51:28 For thirty consecutive years. As a matter of fact, those first couple months we came out, we actually passed DC comic books. We were number two for a few months. So When people sort of get past you know, the Marvel and D C and even in the industry of Hollywood and or people that are looking for ancillary products, which you have to. Because

51:47 People don't know. Marvel's own by Disney. Marvel's own by Disney. They don't share that too much. And D C Comic Books has for a long, long time has been owned by Time Warner now. Warner Brothers Discovery A T.

52:00 You know, but let's call Warner Brothers. So one's owned by Disney, one's owned by Warner Brothers. Okay, so you're Sony. Your your Universal, your Paramount Studios.

52:11 Your Netflix, your Apple. Your Paramount Plus. What are you talking about? Where you're getting product. Not getting it from Marvel. Why? They're not sharing. And you're not getting it from D C?'Cause they're not sharing. So you literally have to go and redact.

52:24 All those Box. And you're left with everybody else, and that puts Our box in really good position. Now let's go back, because that doesn't answer your question. How did we get to image comic books? For me personally

52:39 When I was trying to break into comic books, like I said, in all those years Leading up to breaking in those I was reading Everything I could get my hands on about our industry. And what I found

52:52 was I was coming Across a common theme. And the common theme was That Everybody

53:01 No matter how Big. Your standing had been in our industry. Eventually got pushed out. Against their will.

53:11 And in some cases Got the short end. Of creative and Financial stick. These are artists.

53:18 These are artists, writers, whatever. This these stories were had been written over and over and over again. And so I remember one in in particular reading about There's a gentleman. His name was Jack Kirby and his nickname was Jack the King Kirby, right? To put it in perspective. to people who are laymen listening that

53:38 They called him the king. For a reason. Because he was And he got the short end of the stick. And Jack Kirby's a guy who helped create the Fantastic Four and the X Men and even created the Costume for Spider Man and the Hulk and Iron Man and on and on. That's who Jack Kirby was. He helped create it with Stan Lee.

53:59 So I remember reading those articles. And this is long before I break into the industry. And I want, man, if they can do that to Jack King Kirby. They can do it too.

54:11 Anyone. And so when I got my first job In comic books. When I you know, three weeks before I graduated. I went in with my eyes wide open. And so I knew

54:24 What the game was. And I go, Okay. Their job is to exploit me as much as possible. Can I Do the same.

54:36 In reverse. At the same time. The win is They're getting something of value out of you. You're getting something out of them. And the value that I was getting out of them was twofold. One

54:48 I had all these dozens of characters in my portfolio, including Spawn. And I never Ever had one second of temptation to ever pull any of those out and offer them to to Marvel or DC when I was working with them. Did I create new characters? When I got the plots from the writers, of course I did. I was a professional. So I help co create and I'm the visual creator of Venom.

55:10 So Venom's my guy. Why? Because I you know, we came up with a story and that was what it was. Okay, fine. But I never said, Oh man, I'm having a good career at Marvel. Let me reach into my portfolio and offer them my characters. Never. Why? Those stories had been haunting me. That were there. And at some point Tim.

55:30 I was selling more comic books than any human being Marvel was employing. Period. To the point that I had set a record. on one of the books. I help take over artistically Amazing Spider Man.

55:43 It was sitting at like number twenty two in the sales chart. They came and they went, Hey, Todd, if you want to draw it, cool,'cause I had just finished a run on the incredible hulk that you had mentioned. And they said, Whatever you want to do,'cause it's sort of in a dumber, Spider Man's in the dumper. In short order. At some point. Amazing Spider Man became number one or two every single month in total sale. To the point then that they're like, Oh, and it it's it's really what catapulted my career.

56:09 And just so you know, all the things that I was doing artistically to help move it from number twenty two to number one. I was getting pushback. From the corporate entity up above. And the executives up above and the editor in chief.

56:23 Up above. That you can't do what you're doing, Todd. You're messing with the icon. That's not how we do it. Let me tell you, ladies and gentlemen, as an old man now, the single greatest danger you are gonna meet in your life is status quo. It is the thing that they are gonna fight and battle you against. More than any other thing in the world. And what's staggering about what I just said, which is a truism.

56:50 is that there's only two Hundred percenters. in the world that I can give you. One, we're all gonna die. Hate to break it to you, it's just a matter of time. The second is

57:02 Everything is gonna eventually Change. Otherwise we'd be living in caves. Right now. Change is part

57:10 Condition and yet Every day you run into systems that are crushingly holding on to status quo are holding on to Yesterday. And and for those of us that are wired to think about tomorrow

57:27 We become The rebels. We become the outcast. We become the people who are rocking the boat. who are just, Todd, why don't you just you relax, get along, all the things that they're gonna tell you. And what I'm saying that happened to me has happened to millions of people throughout history that wanted to do something different. Not better. Let me be very clear.

57:50 Not better. Different. So when I was doing my different Spider Man I wasn't doing it'cause I thought I was better. I wasn't doing it because I thought what they were doing

58:01 was worse, which is how they took it. I was doing it because I'm a young kid with a career and I need to figure out how to stand out in a sea of people that are doing the exact same job as me. And there's only one way. I've got to be a little bit different. So I started doing some funky fun little stuff. On Spiderman

58:23 And guess what? The fans liked it. And more importantly, it was enjoyable for me to draw because drawing is a lonely occupation like a novelist where you sit in a room for twelve hours a day with you and your thoughts. That's your day. And if you can't entertain yourself. It's a long day. So I was coming up with crazy little silly things I was putting in the book. They were having a heart attack. I was getting called on the carpet. As the sales are going up, I finally quit Spider Man. They go, No, no, no, because you're selling so many books, we'll give you an a a new Spider Man book. They were gonna do a fourth Spider Man book anyway, so they could have one every week. So they gave it to me. I've never written before.

59:04 I'm going, You're gonna give it to me? I've never written before, but I I I gotta write, which is why I quit. I go, I want to write. And that's because I don't want to draw other people's stories. I want to tell My story. And They said yeah, yeah, yeah, and that book set a record. It's in the Guinness Book of World record for the most sales by a single creator.

59:23 I also own that record on the other side with Spawn. I own the corporate and non corporate record for a single issue by a single person. Done. No, I'm not saying that Breaking? I'm just saying that has a fact so that now that guy who's setting records when he comes into the office in New York From Canada, little Canadian hick. Yeah.

59:43 That they would say Thank you, not fuck you. Right? And instead they're calling me on the carpet going Todd, you've got to stop doing this and this and this. All the things that got me and their books were there. And I remember having these bizarre conversations with the editors going Dude. You don't have to like me personally. You don't have to like my drawing style. You don't have to like anything I do. You hired me for one job.

1:00:12 So comic books. You guys are in the commerce business. Don't you realize you're a money making machine. You want to sell books. I do that better than anybody that you employ. Why are we continuing to have these conversations and they wore me out, Tim. They wore me out. So when was there a particular moment when you knew it seems like you had basically in your back pocket the plan to eventually go out on your own because you had all these characters you developed. So what was the day or the conversation where you're just like

1:00:44 Fuck this. Now is the time. I'm splitting off. I remember. With clarity.

1:00:51 They had been doing the comic books have this thing in the corner called the Comics Code. And the Comics Code was created because in the late fifties there was the whole Were them scared that comic books were degrading the youth of America and they had the Senate hearings, and it actually in a weird way ended up leading to the sort of the advent of Marvel Comics because there was Marvel was a company called Timely Comics But then they went, Oh, we don't want to get caught up in this whole Senate hearing. Let's sort of Whitewash, if you will.

1:01:22 our presentation and they change your name to Marvel and the first book out fantastic four and then after that Here come Spider Man, Iron Man, Hulk, and all the other things that we all know, right? So you can argue that thanks to some Looney Tune in the Senate in the late fifties. Marvel exists, right? Maybe minus him. There is no Marvel. So we actually we shouldn't be giving all the credit to Stanley. We should be giving it to McCarthy. And uh Doctor Worthham, who was the one who wrote the book, The Seduction of the Innocent, right? So look it up. Anyways. Is I'm doing the books.

1:01:56 Because of that comics code, every now and then they would get you to fix a panel. Todd, you can't do that. Why? 'Cause the comics code. Okay. Now I used to ask them. Could somebody actually send me the comment code so instead of having to

1:02:08 guess what's in the comics code and then you guys tell me I gotta redraw something because I have deadlines and I don't like to redraw and redo anything. And so It's like burning your pasta. Then you go, Oh man, I gotta cook it and boil the water again. It just you get aggravated the second time around. So at some point they kept doing that, and then the day came, and then it was the proverbial straw. that broke the camel's back.'Cause I'd been doing it.

1:02:34 For years. And they sat there and it was this issue and it was The sideways issue, my last issue at Marvel. It was a sideways issue of the Spider Man book, the one I had I was writing myself, except for we were doing a crossover with Some of that the mutant X Men and in this case X factor characters. The ones that were sort of Deadpool and Cable came from.

1:02:55 Those characters. And There was a bad guy and his name was a juggernaut. And the juggernaut was like you couldn't beat the juggernaut, right? It's big giant dude. And he had armor and you couldn't do it. So my

1:03:11 And so the way that I was gonna get to him was I had one of the mutants take their sword And put it in the eye. And jam it in the eye. Because then it would be like, Oh my gosh, right? You'd you'd catch him off guard and then if you team tackle him

1:03:26 You're gonna win the day. So I drew that. I still have that page today, Tim, because it's the page. that broke the camel's back. Right. I have the I have the unedited version even better. I I I I don't even have the edit version. I have the unedited version. And And so they phoned me up and they said

1:03:46 Todd, you gotta redraw it. And I went, What what dre redraw what? You can't stab somebody in the eye. With a knife. What what are you talking about? Well, no like the comics call. I go, Well of course you can.

1:03:57 Because Just not long ago there was this great cover. Not only was in the it was on the cover of Daredevil, Frank Miller. And he's got bullseye. On the cover. And he's stabbing

1:04:12 Electra, a character On the cover! And so I go, of course you can stab people. And they go, Well Yes, you can stab people.

1:04:21 But you can't you can't have a rear exit wound. And I want to What are you talking about? Did you look at that cover? The guy's killing electro it's going in the front, it's coming out the back. No no no no no no no no you no you can stab them and it can come out of your extra wound, but you can't tear the cloth. So if you look at the drawing, you're gonna see that it's like you don't really see the sword coming out. It's like a teepee. It's like a teepee the back of her costume is like it's it's it it's teepee, but it hasn't cut. So I go so I just want to be clear. You can gut somebody

1:04:53 And you can have it come out the other side after you gut them. You just Can't Grip the cloth. And that won't offend the mothers and the children. Yes.

1:05:05 Wow. Okay. So there's no rear exit wound, I'm just stabbing him in the eye. Yeah, but you know what? People are sensitive to eyes because if everybody gets something in their eye, we all know how much pain that is, and teeth. Because if you go to the dentist and he drills you wrong, and I'm having this absurd conversation with five or six of my editors, and I'm just going. What are we so I just want to be clear. Can can I stab him in the chest? Yes.

1:05:32 In the knee. Yes. In the Almo, yes. In the eye. No. In the cheek, yes.

1:05:38 In the neck, yes. In the mouth, no. Wow. Wow. So Somehow

1:05:45 I was in Bizarro Land and so I had at that moment I stopped the conversation because you never wanna have a conversation with anybody where two plus two equals giraffe. Right? Never talk to somebody who comes up with that equation. So I said guys, here's what's gonna happen. I'm gonna send you the page. I'll do a little quick drawing over if you want. You guys fix it. Any way.

1:06:08 You see fit. By the way. I'm handing in my resignation. I am done. I am exhausted. I also was a few days away from becoming a father for the first time. And I just want you know what?

1:06:23 It's time to catch my breath. I don't know what being a dad's about. These guys have worn me out and all I do is sell books for them and I just called And And that was it. That was the day I walked away. Now, did I have a plan B? Of course I didn't, Tim.

1:06:41 Of course I did. The plan B was I had spawn as a character. And I just want I guess I'll just have to self publish. Right. Ideal.

1:06:51 But Okay, here we go. The upside of it was that I was talking to a couple other people. Let me also say before me quitting, I also was going around trying to create a union. I was like the normal Ray. I just go, come on, man, power to the people, right?

1:07:08 If we stop drawing, put pencils down, they got nothing to print. We show them our power. It was frustrating for me when I tried it for a few months that the most scar That will say yeah let's join together.

1:07:23 Or those that don't have a job. It was weird to me. I'd be talking to dozens of people that I knew. that wanted to be in the business, that were in the business, but weren't getting steady work, that needed a better life. And I go, Come on, let's just go. Let's just create like a an enclave of of people and again, you know, and and deal with the whole is better than the parts. And they would say No, Todd, I can't because what if they blackball me? And I'm like, why ball you?

1:07:49 What do you talk about? You're not getting any work from them right now. Yeah, but what if they blackball me? I'll go, so here's what I'll do for you. Right now you have no job. No car. No girlfriend, no house.

1:08:01 No money. If you join this enclave, I will promise I will make all of those equal to you. Right. You've got nothing to lose. Other than to go up.

1:08:13 Come on, man. I'm selling more books than anybody else. I'm making more money than anybody else in our industry, and I'm willing to throw it away. You should be Ten times more fearless than me. It was actually oddly the opposite. So

1:08:28 During that time I had been talking to two of my friends and peers. There were also in the industry, a gentleman by the name of Rob Liefeld and another one named Eric Larson. And both of them had That same entrepreneurial

1:08:43 trait in them. And we were always talking. And I remember in one conversation Rob was saying, Yeah, I'm gonna maybe go, you know, I'm working he's still working for Marvel, so it's Eric. And it's like yeah, I'm gonna go do my own book. And then Eric was on a the call going, Yeah, I'm gonna go do my own book. And I had just quit.

1:09:01 And at some point during the conversation, the topic came up and go, Wolf, you're gonna do your own book on your own. Rob, and you're gonna do your own book on your own, Eric. And I'm planning on it. Why don't we do all of them together? in the same place. It's never been done. What's happened is People have left Marvel and DC one at a time, or they push them out the door. Think of it like a sports team. So you lose a free agent, you go get another player.

1:09:26 So you lose enough But what if Ten of your players. On a championship team quit the same year. That would be detrimental to that. competition of that team.

1:09:37 So the conversation was Why don't we just join forces? So all of a sudden very quickly it was Three. Rob who super energetic, came up with the name Image Comic Books, and the reason why you came up with the name So he tells me is that there was a commercial that was on TV and it was uh

1:09:56 Andre Agassi, I think, and it was a it was a camera commercial. And he says Image is everything. So that was the punchline of the commercial. So he was like Let's do image!

1:10:07 Right, if image is everything, let's do image. Right. So that was it. Image comic books was born. You don't overthink people people think that we come up with all this stuff and we know what we're doing. No. Venom in and of itself was a happy accident. We can go back to that in a minute if you want to. So the three of us get together and then and then Rob says Todd. I've got a buddy, Jim Valentino. He does some independent comic books. Uh is it okay if he comes and

1:10:33 It's like what are you talking about? I like there this is a group. The more the merrier. So we've got four. And then we find somebody to help us publish. And We say that's it.

1:10:45 We're flying to New York. And we're gonna break the news to Marvel. That we're quitting. Four of us. Rob

1:10:53 Eric. Todd. Jim. Jim Valentino. We fly to New York.

1:10:59 And I land the day before we have a meeting with the top And later at that meeting I'll get to was the editor in chief who happened to be walking down the hall. So I've got a meeting with Terry Stewart, the top dog and to basically say, We're quitting. Here's our reasons why.

1:11:17 And If it was me I would close this barn door'cause you might have some more people quitting next week or the week after the week after. So We land the day before and

1:11:28 I gotta blow some time. So I happened to walk around, I heard there's an auction. Somebody selling some artwork, I go to the auction. And Jim Lee. The person you know. You talked about me.

1:11:38 Who's now the head at D T Congo. Jim Lee Is at the auction. And he's like, hey Don, what are you doing here? I'm like oh and I told him. And then I start giving the sales pitch.

1:11:49 Tim, let me tell you one thing. When I have my Passion. Involved. I'm a good salesman.

1:11:58 I'm a good salesman. And so I start Pounding on Jim Lee. And Jim Lee at this point, just so you know, is doing The X Men and it is the number one selling book.

1:12:09 He's doing the number one selling book. The only time I ever got beat was Jim Lee. That guy. He was he was my competition. Like I was Magic Johnson, he was Larry Bird. Okay. And so we just we had a rival, but we liked each other and we got along. And so I tell'em what we're doing. And he starts thinking about it.

1:12:26 And then to my surprise says I think I can go with that. Now This is a monumental moment. from my perspective. And here's why, ladies and gentlemen.

1:12:38 Todd the Rebel Leaving. was gonna be easy for Marvel to basically discount'cause they were gonna go, Ah That kid's always sort of rocking the boat and he's always a bit of a pistol. You know what? That's fine. Rob Liefeld had the same attitude. So it's like ah, we were the bad boys.

1:12:56 Ah, so the bad boys left. Good riddance. Jim Lee was the golden child. He was the chef's kiss. He was the guy. Perfect. If they could clone employees.

1:13:10 An artist Jim Le was the mold. And so t when Jim said he would go That was a thunderclap in my head to go Oh my God, if the choir boy can go. Then that means all bets are off.

1:13:27 And they are gonna have to sit up and pay attention because not only are you losing the bad boys, you are losing the model citizens. And so Jim then says, Oh, by the way, I got a pal, Wolf Pertasio. Is it okay if I phone him and and'cause he's looking for the work, I think he'll join too. Shoot. He was doing another X-Men book. I'm going what, we're gonna get two X Men. The X Men books are the number one selling book.

1:13:51 At that point. Bring'em on. So we got six, and I'm walking now back to my hotel with the biggest grin on my face because I go, they don't even know what's about to come. And as I'm walking into my hotel I see another Sort of peer, a guy by the name of Mark Silvestri. Now Mark Sylvestri to me at that time

1:14:10 Was the best. Artist. Like just in terms of skill. Mark Sylvestre. Don't believe the thing that the my son is saying. Yeah. That's my that's my dad. I'm taking care of here. Yeah, yeah. Okay. No problem. Yeah.

1:14:23 Show. Mark Sovesty's there and it's about eleven o'clock at night. And I go, Hey Mark, what are you doing? He goes, Oh, I'm going to bed. You got you got you got five minutes for me? Right. And so I sit down and like

1:14:33 Mussolini from the balcony. I give him the speech, right? And I give it to him, and he's like, Oh my God. He goes, Todd. That sounds good. And Jim Malice on board? Yeah, he just signed on. Let me think about it. I go Mark, here's the gig. We've got a meeting at eight o'clock tomorrow morning. I need to know if you're in or not.

1:14:53 By eight o'clock in the morning. He goes, So I've got a I've gotta go to bed. I've gotta think about it, whether I'm gonna change my entire career. And I've got Nine hours of which eight of them I'm gonna sleep. Yeah, that's it.

1:15:04 Now I don't know what he did or how well he slept that night. But in the morning at seven thirty the phone rings and he goes, Hey Todd, Mark, I'm in. Seven. We went to New York. I flew to New York with Rob With four of us. With four of us. And by the time we walk into that office, we've got seven. Oh, by the way, Mark Sylvester was doing the Wolverine comic book.

1:15:26 We had Literally the dream team to put in perspective for people listening. Again the don't know. There's probably a Every year about that year was probably about six, seven thousand comic books come out.

1:15:40 But from all companies, right?'Cause again, Spider Man comes out once a month, so it's twelve, and then you've got three Spider Man books that's thirty six, and then Iron Man's another twelve and twelve and you add it all up. Literally Thousands of comic books come out. The people who Gathered together to create image.

1:15:57 We had Accomplished Forty four of the top fifty Sales. That year.

1:16:04 Just to put in perspective who we were, forty-four of the top fifty sales of six thousand. We were literally the comic book equivalent of. The dream team, the basketball team. of that was happening in basketball that time. So I knew this was gonna reverberate somewhere and again the stock went down at Marvel the next day, take a look at it,'cause CNN reported on it. And we went into the meeting.

1:16:29 And essentially it went like this, and here would be a fun interview is to get Terry Stewart's perspective of it because Not only has he literally lied about it. He will tell you otherwise. But not only is he lied about it, but then thirty years later I met up with him and my wife went and talked to him, and he still is spewing.

1:16:51 The lie. And I get it. He's corporate. What's he gonna do? He doesn't wanna say that it was on his watch that all these people la left. But here's his lie. And it is. I got witnesses'cause there's more than one of us in that room.

1:17:05 He's saying we came in and we asked for the copyrights of our characters. What are you talking about? None of us is that crazy. We understood the dynamics of the business. We would Like yeah, give me Spider Man and give him the X Men. What are you talking about? He's saying he had to let us go because that was our demand. No. No.

1:17:25 The way that it went down was simply like this. We are leaving. There's nothing you can give us that's gonna keep us. And Oh, by the way, here's some of our reasons.

1:17:37 If you're not going to be able to Us. You may want to do something about those reasons because next week you may have another seven quitting. I don't understand why you want to keep having people quitting, but you know what? Do what you gotta do. It's your company, whatever. Now during that conversation.

1:17:55 The editor in chief had coincidentally happened to be up on the upper Floors. Don't know why and just came in and whatever. He was a good man, Tom DeFalco. The one that's

1:18:06 You used to tell me, Can't do that, Todd. You can't do that, Todd. On Spider Man. Anyway, at the end of this conversation,'cause Rob Liefeld, who was in there, my wife was there, and Jim Lee was there. Rob laughed because he had to go Pick up his girlfriend. So that was classic Rob. Like oh

1:18:22 You guys just finished this. world changing conversation. I go get my wife and gotta grab a burger. So and this is why I like Rob so much because he's just he's by the cuff and it and and it's what makes him special to me. Anyways, we get in the elevator at the end of this conversation. And I will never Forget the words.

1:18:42 has the elevator doors are closing, just like in a movie, the doors are closing and you can see The editor in chief looking at us and he says Hey. If it doesn't work You're welcome back.

1:18:55 And the door shut. And I remember turning to Jim Lee. Now Just to give a little background on Jim Lee. Jim Lee

1:19:03 Went to college to become a doctor. I think his dad's a doctor. This is a smart, intelligent human being. And for me My dad, who you just heard. was in the printing business for forty, fifty years. The one thing that I knew It's

1:19:17 Printing. And if not, I knew lots of people who did. So The doors closed and I looked at Jim and I go, Oh my God. They think we're dumb. And I'm not that we're smart, Tim. Not that we're smart, Tim.

1:19:29 But you know what printing comic books is? Ink. On paper. That's it, ladies and gentlemen. Pink.

1:19:36 On paper. Done. Maybe there's a couple details. Beyond that. But that's it.

1:19:43 Every time you pick up a pen and you write on a piece of paper, it's sort of kinda like doing comic books. It's just if you keep going and draw it in the shape of Spider Man or or the Hulk, you got a comic book. It's not rocket science. And so I was like, oh my God, they don't think we can print? Oh my God. So that was it. And from there, the collective whole of the seven of us left. Here's sort of this silly funny part of the rest of that day.

1:20:09 Historically what was happening, Tim, is that If you quit Marvel You only had one choice. You went literally across the street. To DC Comics. Or if you quit D C Comics

1:20:21 You quit and you walked across the street to Marvel. That's all you did. You literally ping pong your whole career back and forth, back and forth. Whenever you got mad, you just went to the other date. There was across the street. So we went across the street to DC comic books. And DC See I had started you know, I had done uh about a year, year and a half there. Rob Liefeld had done a year there.

1:20:42 But Jim Lee and I walk in there, Jim Lee has never stepped Four. in D C comic books. And he's the golden child at Marvel. And they just go, there's only one reason he's in the office. Somebody got mad and we're getting the golden child and we're getting Todd. We'll take the bad boy too, because he's like that's these are the number one and number two selling guys in the industry. Woo! We hit the mother load. The mother of the Oh my God And quickly

1:21:10 They assemble fifteen, sixteen people in this room and they pour the coffee and they get us the refreshments and they just go, Oh my goodness. We are sitting here and we sit down And then They hear the fateful words, I go, Hey guys, just So you know, we're not here to work for you. I just couple things. We just quit Marvel, their eyes light up, but we are not here to work for you either. You could just see the lead balloon.

1:21:35 And they were like Pardon? And it's like no no no, we're not here to work for you. So so and you can just see the so j so we're just clear. So you Came here with Jim Lee and walked into our offices and are now dangling and teasing us and saying

1:21:51 It's for nothing, is exactly what we're saying. Wow. Wow, why would you guys do that? And I go, Well Because you know, we got some other plans and then then they start giving their sales pitch. Well, here's why You should work for us. Don't do that. DC is your place to be. DC, DC, DC. And they go, and by the way, we just did a new contract that's for the betterment of the creative community.

1:22:15 And then I asked them the question. for me that was like the dagger for me. Well they go, hey, yeah, you know no, that was super cool. That was super, super cool. You wrote up that new contract for the creative community. Could I just ask you just like one one one question here just before we get going? Did you ask one fucking creator? To have any input in that. contract that is to better the creative community. Did you ask

1:22:38 One Single Creator. And let me tell you, Tim. When you get pregnant pauses in rooms

1:22:44 It's all you need to know. You get your answer at the pregnant pause. Of course they didn't. Of course they did it. And that was the reason. This is why we're quitting Marvel.

1:22:55 This is why we're quitting DC. Because of your Disregard. For your community.

1:23:03 And Jim and I are examples and we've climbed the top of the ladder just like Jack King Kirby and all those hundreds before him. This is just a repeat. And It's

1:23:17 Time. And we thought that that was it, and that was when the collective whole not me. The collective whole of the seven of us. Start at image comics. So the DC visit, I'm trying to think of the names involved. Was there anyone who was quitting DC or did you just go in there to put them on alert and say No, we put them on alert.

1:23:38 And gave him the same sort of speech we gave Marvel. If you think that the dissatisfaction of the seven of us is unique to the seven of us. You guys are blind. I see. So it was a change your ways or Right a fatality. Every conversation is The exact same

1:23:57 And if we prove that there's any success on the outside of the only two bubbles that exist in most freelancers sort of brains, which is Marvel D C or you get another job. And I mean another job in another industry. So if we if we move on and we create a Third. Possibility. Why do that? Now to their credit, let me say, Tim, to their credit.

1:24:20 They did. Start changing. They did start bettering pay. And you know, even starting to give medical. Which was never a part of the equation, and giving bonuses

1:24:32 and being a little more fair minded on royalties because they knew That what we were saying at some point that reality sunk in. That we could start losing Almost

1:24:45 Even Top talent. If not. a big portion of our talent, period. And this isn't good for business. So even those that were jealous or in our creative community And or thought that we were crazy or

1:24:59 Whatever they still Whether they know it or not prospered by us leaving because all their contracts got upgraded. While they were still throwing darts at us. our own community, as you can imagine. Saying you guys go take your big egos and go do your thing.

1:25:13 Okay, so I just came back from a bathroom break. You mentioned before we started recording you had a camel bladder and that you would talk until I had to take a bathroom break, which was true. So how is a camel bladder a competitive Advantage. It is. And so'cause people go, So what? So why so you you don't go to the bathroom. I mean I I went to a signing not long ago. And I got there at seven and I signed from seven in the morning to midnight and I didn't move from the desk where I was signing from. And they had to now again other hum other human beings had to eat.

1:25:43 And go to the bathroom journal. So I so I go, You better have two teams and you're gonna have to rotate them. Let me just sort of quickly get out of the way first, how you cannot go to the bathroom for seventeen hours. It's really sort of easy. Stuff. If you don't put anything into your top hole, nothing comes out of any of the bottom hole, right? Just it's just basic. So I don't eat and I don't drink. That's a whole nother conversation, but like they're going, what well what how how do you do that? That's another conversation. But if you don't put anything nothing in, nothing out.

1:26:12 Simple, easy. And I know this to be scientifically true because I've used it to my advantage. Now Because I have a camel bladder, two things have happened in my career that I think have been advantageous. One, everybody when I go to the conventions would have to go and take a lunch break. Why? Because they're they're hungry. They're hungry. Right, my wife would tell you I have never uttered those words. I'm hungry. I eat because science says I need to. My body needs fuel.

1:26:36 So I put it in, not because I'm hungry, because I have to. It's an essential ingredient, food. So I do it. But I can outlast you if you gotta go away. So people would take off at conventions and go f away for lunch or bathroom breaks or whatever. Guess who didn't? Me.

1:26:54 And here's why that matters, because there's people in line. And if you've got at the time of our popularity when they used to open it up, you have at times I'm telling you literally thousands of people in line waiting for your autograph. First off, in good conscience. I can't have somebody waiting in line for two hours, three hours, and then look at them and say But I'm going for an hour and a half lunch break.

1:27:16 And the kids going, What? I've already been in line for three hours. Like I can't do it. I can't look at somebody in the eye. I won't do it. So I said, No, I'll just Figure out how to not do this thing that most humans do. And here's where the upside is. Is that when all my peers have gone to lunch, Then people are waiting in line and then they're just sitting there going Well that guy's still shining. What's his name?

1:27:36 Todd, Tom, Tim, whatever. What's he do, Spider-Man? Well I like comic books, I know Spider-Man. And guess what happens, Tim? They'd get in your line. They don't care really at that point about you. They just go, he's signing, that line's moving. I'll get in his line and then they come up

1:27:52 You've got twenty seconds, you become as gracious as you can to them, and maybe you peel off and you've got a new couple fans and all of a sudden it's like No. I only collect X-Men, but you know what that Todd was a Gentlemen and he was very s nice and he smiled at me, was very kind. You know what, maybe I'll go buy one of his

1:28:11 Spiderman books or, you know, in the future respond books. And so that's it. Good, right? I'll always be nice. No matter who they are. Number two, on the business end. And this one is sadly even easier. And it's just pathetic at times. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. And Phoenix, Arizona can be a hundred and ten degrees. Let me tell you, I'm like a cockroach.

1:28:32 I don't care what the weather is. I'll survive. Don't worry about me. I'm good. But here's what I know about other people. They have comfort zones. And so

1:28:40 Whenever I was in some big legal dispute or contract dispute, I would say, especially the people in LA, I go, You fly them to me. Now, this is just the art of war. So My desk is facing a big giant glass window. Right.

1:28:54 And I know when the sun comes down that window. Now when usually when I'm in my room, I bring down the drapes and I put up the AC and I'm comfortable. But when the enemy's coming, i. e. The people I've got to negotiate with come. I make sure that the blind are up. And that I turn the air conditioning so that it's actually stuffy in that room.'Cause why?

1:29:16 I can endure it. I've done it plenty of times. And then They always come dressed in a three-piece suit. Wrong move, guys. Wrong move. And then they come in and they come into the room and I close the door and I know it's gonna get stuffy, and then I put a giant picture of water in front of them. And then I uttered the words.

1:29:38 Guys. This has been going on Far, far too long. Here's the deal. We're not leaving this room.

1:29:46 Until we settle. Every single outstanding point. And during those conversations They either pour their own water On a constant basis,'cause they've got their three piece wool suit on.

1:29:59 I've got my T shirt and my and I'm in my my Nike shorts. And I can just see them getting hotter. And hotter and hotter and they keep having to get more and more water and at some point nature calls and then we get down to the last one and they go I go, I'm not moving on point ten. I'm not moving. It's a deal break. If I don't get it, this whole deal and

1:30:22 You know how many times I've had people in my room go, Fine! This is how it works. It goes like this. Fine, you can have point ten. Are we done? Yes. Are we done? Yes. Where's your bathroom? The very next thing is where's your bathroom? Because I think in my mind that they literally caved in on the 10th point.

1:30:42 Because they couldn't hold it anymore. And if they could have held it, they could have argued longer with me and perhaps I might have conceded or we could have compromised on that point. But their bladder. Cost them. Too bad, how sad, right? You find your you find your advantages wherever you can get'em. Oh, McFarlane the Barbarian. What a savage. Nice work. So let's come back to Venom. You mentioned that Venom came together, I think as an accident, maybe the f was the phrasing that you used. I mean, this is an iconic character known the world over Happy accident. Yeah. So how how did it come together? So we'll go back

1:31:21 Early in my Marvel career. Like I said. early in the podcast, if you can keep deadlines, that's a giant value. in that industry. So I was showing them that I could keep deadlines.

1:31:31 So I knew then that that was gonna be getting me continuous work. So once you get continuous work, the next upgrade Is can you draw characters that people have heard of. Right?

1:31:43 So'cause the first job I got at Marvel was on a a book. It was like an obscure book. It was called Steve Engelhert's Coyote. And it wasn't even Coyote. I was doing a back up. In the coyote. I was doing an obscure backup in an obscure book. It literally was starting in the mail room. But eventually

1:32:02 I got a steady job over at D C'cause it canceled Coyote. And I got a I got a monthly book over D C. Unfortunately, Tim. And this is Where sometimes One person's break is another person's tragedy. An artist on another book

1:32:17 who was a fit human being, was super awesome artist. I followed him. Was a health freak, drank some unpasturized milk, went into a seizure and had an allergic reaction and died. And so I get a phone call and they go, Hey, Todd My artist just passed away. Can you come on and help us for A couple months.

1:32:36 And I at that point they had canceled Coyote. I literally took me years to get in. I was employed for four months, and then they canceled Coyote. And I'm like, man. So I sent my samples back. to all the people that were gracious enough to give me constructive criticism, except for A thing changed on the resume, Tim.

1:32:53 I was now able to say Um, I am Todd McFarland, the professional from Marvel Comic Books. The drawing was exactly the same. It only been four months. It was just as horrible as it was four months earlier, except for instead of being an amateur, I got to go now into the smaller pile, which is the professionals looking for work pile. So I get the job, go, Yeah, woo, I get I I've got some work. The guy who was supposed to take over that book 'Cause I was only supposed to fill in for two months. Decided to bail.

1:33:21 So After the first issue. They said, Do you want to take over the book? It was a book called Infinity Incorporated and I stayed on that book for two, three years. So when I went over the Marvel, they went, Okay, you can keep a deadline. Chuck.

1:33:33 The question is You gotta stop doing and here's a bizarre You gotta stop doing what they call They dub the big your big dice drawing style. And the only reason it was called that because on one page in Infinity Incorporated. I drew this page layout and it was these big giant dice and then I did panels inside drawings inside the big dice and somebody, I guess, in editorial saw that page.

1:33:59 And so it was like, Oh, he's the big giant dice guy. And so the and the reason I was doing giant dice and doing all these crazy flamboyant layouts In And finity incorporate it because Tim, my drawing was mediocre.

1:34:14 I knew that. Like at some point you gotta be realistic about your skills. I was mediocre and I had two choices. I could either put mediocre drawings and boring Layout. Or I could be flamboyant and baffle them with my BS and get them to look at all this sort of window trimming. And not

1:34:33 So to pay attention that maybe I'm drawing my eyes crooked. Right. And it worked. And it worked. So people are like, Oh my gosh And so by the time I left infinity, I think

1:34:42 I had risen to the point that I was like voted the fifth most popular Penciler at that point. So I'm like, wow. So I go over to Marvel and then they say, which was weird because Marvel was always the house of ideas. And at this point they were in they had flopped with DC and they were they were boring. And they said, You can come, but you can't do The giant dice.

1:35:01 style. And I go, So what do you want me to do? And I go, We just want you to do like a grid. Now let me just tell you Anybody listening? That means you take a piece of paper and you divide it into six equal Equal panels. And you go. It is the most boring, easiest thing to do. So essentially they took a guy like me

1:35:17 who I thought was an artistic sprinter, and they said, Could you put lead boots on? Shoot. This is gonna be easy. Right. I don't know why you want to do it.

1:35:27 But it was frustrating because there was no artistic freedom to do it. So I did it. They give me the first job back at Marvel and they go, Hey problem, you g usually have thirty days to do a book. Right? Once a month. But we got we're behind the eight ball. We can give you this job, but you only got ten days. I gave it to him an eight. Was it my best job? Of course it wasn't.

1:35:46 But was it done in eight? Yeah. Did it get me brownie points right on the spot? They were amazed I gave it to them in eight days. Boom. Within weeks they're offering me the incredible hulk. Now. Once you get to incredible hulk, this is the next step in climbing the ladder.

1:36:02 All of a sudden, look, I've been in the business probably Two, three, four years at that point. And when I get the incredible hulk, finally I hear the words from my mom and dad, Oh my God, you finally made it. And the reason was'cause they had heard of the Hulk. Right. So up to then

1:36:17 Uh everything I was doing was like I don't know if he's ever gonna make it. I was still working at Marvel in DC. It just wasn't for books. But if you can go to the neighbor's, you know, Halloween party and say, My son draws a Hulk, they've heard of the word Hulk too. So all of a sudden it's like, Oh my gosh, your son, he must be good. So it's important to have characters that know because it helps the relatives In your circle. sort of think that you're a bigger shot than you are, even though it's the exact same amount of work and the same pay on top of it. So

1:36:46 Okay, so you you get to the next step. And now you're going, huh. Now you're just fighting for the next step up, and I'll quickly sort of get you to this and I know I'm long winded in all your questions. I wish I was better. I'm I I'm into it. Okay. So I do the I do the Hulk, I'm doing penciling, and then I go, I'm gonna do inking because at this point I got fast enough that I could do two books. There weren't too many people that could do two books. I was doing two books.

1:37:13 So they give me a second book. The same editor who gave me the incredible hope gives me another book. It's called G. I Joe, Real American Hero. Right. Now the thing that's sort of ironic about that is I was living up in Canada. Right. It never really sort of I was going, Wow, if they only knew that this Canadian and I'm Canadian up here in Canada drawing the real American heroes, this might be a bit of a problem, but nobody's gonna tell there was no internet. So I did it the first issue of G. I Joe and I was doing the Hulk.

1:37:41 And I get a phone call and I was going back and forth with this writer and it was We were bashing heads. Every single page of that. And finally, after the first issue, my editor phones up and says, Todd, I've got to let you go. I'm like one issue, I'm one issue in the G.I. Joe. I'm making my marks on the Hulk. I'm now in the top three of some of the voting artistically. And

1:38:05 I go, What you gonna fire me? But let me just tell you it was a relief. Because it was such A paying for that one. Month. And that my

1:38:14 view of comic books and the writer's view of comic books were so diametrically opposed. Where did you guys clash on that? What kind of decisions or what type of stuff? He probably sees it a little bit differently, but I I'll just show you given my point of view. I assume the people that were reading the con books had eyes and brains. He assumed From my perspective, they didn't.

1:38:35 Because you shut it. Assume your reader is an his his words not mine. Assume the reader is an aboriginal bushman, and he just came out of the tundra in Australia and he's never seen a comic book, your storytelling must be that clear. Which basically meant You can't have somebody walk into a house and then cut to them. Inside the house or even closing the door on the inside. You have to Grab the door

1:39:02 Open the door, walk in the room because and I just want I just want Larry. I guess I see the world differently. I assume, silly me, that the people reading the comic books. Watch. Fucking TV, go to movies, read books. They understand how stories

1:39:22 are told. And as a matter of fact, on a movie, when you cut scenes, they don't even have a caption in 99.9% of the time. People just know that it's different people in a different setting. It must be a scene cut. You don't have to do it. But anyways, he had his way of seeing the world I had my way of seeing the world. Fine, no big deal. Got it. So he fires me off it and I remember I was sitting in my apartment up in Vancouver and I leaned back and I looked at the clock and it was like twelve oh six and I was like a little bit bummed'cause I'm like, man, I've never been Never been fired. Right? So it's like oh man.

1:40:01 At twelve fourteen. Bing. I am telling you, no lie. Seven minutes. I was unemployed for seven minutes. Ring.

1:40:10 Todd, yeah, hey, this is Dip Giardano over at D C. Now remember I'd left D C to go back over to Marvel. You remember when you left you said the only reason you would come back is to draw Batman? Yeah. Well, we've got this book. First there was Batman the Dark Knight, then there was Batman Year One, and they had another project called Batman Year Two.

1:40:31 We've got a book called Batman Year Two. It's a four part story. And the artist Quit after the first one. Can you finish the last three? What?

1:40:40 Like what? You're saying I my choice right now is either stay on Which I didn't have an option, but stay on G.I. Joe that I just got fired from that was basically like putting daggers in my eyes, or do Batman, and that was the only character I'd come back for? Phew. So I jump on Batman year two.

1:40:57 Now It gets a little crazier b by that point because because at this point I was only being the pencil artist And in comic books, they bring in another person who is the inker. Some people call him the tracer. It's not true.

1:41:11 Good Inchers. Add a lot to pages. I thought I had my drawing style was what I would call sort of this new wave nineties style. And I was constantly getting inchers that were like These nineteen sixties.

1:41:26 old school brush guys. I was drawing in a way that I thought you should be using a pen. because there's a different technique with it. And they kept putting brush guys on me. And it was so Transforming. Like you like they literally would bury the artwork from if you saw what I was drawing, you saw the printed page, it was Like

1:41:44 To me, night and day. So I do this part two of uh Batman year two, then I do part three, and then they send me the samples, and I f and I finally again another one of those moments in my life with clarity that I look at it And I see the splash page and the splash page has uh commissioner Gordon and he's holding a gun. And to me it looks hairy.

1:42:06 Right? I go it's metal. Like, why is it looking hairy? And it's because the Inchor Work for him, I guess.

1:42:15 And then I looked at like Another panel and it was the hallway And when you're doing like A downshot of a hallway, you the lines get closer. It's basically perspective. I won't bore people, but it's just the illusion.

1:42:28 Of depth. And I'd done all these drawn's or these lines to give that illusion and they were horizontal. And then I looked at the panel. And he had done the exact same thing. It was brilliant, except for he did them Vertically.

1:42:40 And it was these moments and so it wasn't that one Was better than the other. Right. They both work. It was

1:42:50 Again, I just sort of try to get as simple as possible. The reason and I don't know if anybody sort of could understand this concept, but the reason I made them go Up and down. Vertically. Was because chilly me, I fucking wanted them to go up and down vertically.

1:43:07 Because if I had wanted them to go horizontally, which was another option I would have drawn them. I can draw Horizontal lines Equally as well. has vertical lines. The reason they were vertical because

1:43:22 I must have meant horizontal. That's why I did like what are you talking about? Just Copy the lines and do your thing with the lines that are there. And so I phone the editor and I go, Hey Denny. I don't mean to do this to you because you already lost one artist and I don't mean to do power plays because I don't like doing that. I don't want to be that guy, but here's the gig. If I can't ink The last

1:43:46 chapter of this book. And let me be completely honest, I've never inked before. So I'm a complete noob. I can't do this. I can't have people literally going in the opposite direction of my artwork. I can't do it. So He kinda was in a tough spot. He was like, Oh, okay, fine, Todd. Can you get it done by the deadline? Yeah, sure. So

1:44:06 I did my first inkin. So thanks to all those inchers for turning me into an inch. And from there on out, I was my own inker. I started inking the Hulk. If you look at it. I went back to my editor on the Hulk and I go.

1:44:18 Well they let me ink the Batman. And so he's like, Oh, okay, I guess you can ink the Hulk. And so and now I'm gonna eventually get to your event the question about Venom. So it was a long winded way, sorry. Eventually, let me pause you for just a just a quick sex. So for people who have no context on your art, I mean very fine details. And when you're talking about the older school inking, lots of things. Thick black with lots of maybe obscuring. You simplify it. Yeah. So You simplify it. Right. Right. So when you went from penciling to I need to ink this or I'm out

1:44:53 What were the biggest Differences between penciling and inking. As someone who's never inked, I'd be curious to know What you learned or felt or if it just mapped over really easily. What was it like to do your first thinking?

1:45:06 Hey Tim, here's the first shock that my sometimes my enthusiasm gets the better of me, and there's nobody that hates Todd more than Todd. At times'cause it's like, what are you doing, Todd? So then I learned the magic. I'm now gonna do two jobs, right? If you If you pencil book You get thirty days. If you ink a book, like I pencil it, they give me thirty days, then they hand the pages to you, Tim, you ink it, you get thirty days.

1:45:33 If I want to pencil. And ink. They don't give me thirty plus thirty. Right? There's two of us.

1:45:41 It's 30 plus thirty. I get thirty, you get thirty. They're going, you can do two jobs, Todd, but you still only got thirty days. Essentially you're doing twice the work and you have to do it twice as fast because the book still comes out. And so Lesson learned.

1:45:55 If you're gonna pick up more work. You might want to ask How much extra time do you have? And when the answer is zero, you might want to rethink your ass. Um because the eventually I got to the point going, I'm gonna write my own stories too, right? And that extra time also is zero. Uh so but that comes a little bit later in the career. So the first shock is I've now got to go faster.

1:46:23 What it taught me personally. Because now I'm doing two books and I'm inkin, right? I like so I'm a bit of a unicorn at this point,'cause very few people can even pencil two books. Was I had to create for myself Efficiencies. And this goes into business now, right? And even though we're doing art, this is just Efficiency.

1:46:42 So I do the efficiency And I go, I don't have time to do a lot of what they call under drawing. I I gotta literally draw with ink. I don't have time to do the job twice. I can't pencil and then ink my own work. I have to do it all in one fell swoop, which is horrifying to people. who've never inked themselves Because every person I've shown

1:47:03 Among some amazing peers. Among some amazing peers, when they see what my process is, they go I can't even make out what's on your Page. And I go, that's okay, I'm just gonna finish it with the ink and it goes, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you can't go with the ink.

1:47:17 I'm like why? Cause it's permanent. And I what if you make a mistake? Uh there's a thing called Whiteout? You just White it out. And they're going to be able to do it.

1:47:26 Yeah, but what if you make another mistake? I just use whiteout. Oh let me ask you a question in reverse. What happens if you draw a pencil and you make a mistake? Well I just use an eraser. Well, why can you use an eraser and I can't use whiteout? It's the same thing. Yeah, but it's ink. It literally was this mental wall for people. And these are people that I would sit next to at a convention that would do 20 sketches with a pencil and never erase one line. And I used to turn to them go, why couldn't you why couldn't you have done that with ink? And their answer was always the same. What if I made a mistake?

1:47:56 You didn't. I've been watching you for four hours. You haven't made one mistake. Why is it if I change the tool that somehow you're gonna make a mistake, but you know what? You do you, I'll do my thing. And so I had to just Pull back the drawing and figure it out. kind of in one step so I could keep the deadline. That was my Learning experience. Now

1:48:17 Question number two. Did I hit the ground running? Of course I didn't. Of course I didn't. But if you look at my Inking at the beginning it's very, very crude. And even on Spider Man, which is the book that catapult, if you look at the thickness of the webs on his costume, you will see a noticeable difference, I think, from issue three hundred when I started Incan. Spider Man.

1:48:39 And if you look at like about issue Three twenty for sure by the time I get in the new Spider Man book that I'm drawing. For sure there's a dramatic difference visually. So I was constantly learning that trade. It was Todd the professional who'd been penciling for five, six years, and Todd the newbie inker I wasn't gonna be a five or six year vet inken. I was a new inker. So I had to learn that trade and catch up those five or six years that the other half of my brain had already sort of tackled with penciling. So Go ahead. So I'cause eventually now this is gonna get me to

1:49:12 Venom. Yeah, to that'em. Okay, so so very quickly I finished the Batman project And now I'm back down to only one book, so I can do two books. And so again, I I'm looking for another book.

1:49:23 And all the editors at Marvel said, Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, come and talk to me, but whatever you do, don't go into the Spiderman office'cause it's a shambles. Now. You may Or may not have gathered. that Todd doesn't seem to color inside the lines a lot of the times.

1:49:41 And so You don't tell me don't go into that office. Right,'cause to me unless you want Todd to go into the office. Yeah, what are you guys doing? So I went I went into the office and it was it was. He the editor Jim Salcrept that Time. Good man. was losing and turning over artists. The books were in a bit of

1:50:00 A sales decline, like I said, when I picked up the book, it was like at number twenty one, twenty two. And I said, Hey, I can do another book. And we had a chat. And I said I I wanna ink the book and then they're like, Well, you know, maybe in a couple of months and I go, Well, I'm inking the hook.

1:50:17 Right. Come on. Go talk to Bob, the editor. On that book and and he's like, Well, you know, just give me a couple months. You how about it starting at three hundred, you can ink the book. No Mike. Yeah, okay. We'll do it. But the other piece of it was oh uh y just one other sort of slight problem. Spider Man's got a black costume.

1:50:36 And this is this costume that was create it and for this book called Secret Wars, which is the black costume with the White spider on it. And I go, that's not Spider Man to me. Maybe I'm just old school. Spider Man's that guy in the blue and the red with the webs on it, Spider Man. So can we just get rid of that black costume and and uh get back to Spider Man.

1:50:57 Then this is sort of the happy accident. He said, Well You know, the editor in chief really likes the black costume and I don't think he's gonna go for that. So he's not gonna want to get rid of it? He had something to do with secret wars and you know, they they kinda dig in it. And I went, Oh man. I just I don't wanna draw Spider Man in a black costume. It's like

1:51:17 Doing Batman and Polka Dots. Doesn't make any sense to me. So what if I come back to you with some designs, we just rip the costume off them, we put it on somebody, I create another character. Give it to the writers, we'll just figure it out. And then we still have the black costume and then we can get the red and blue back on Peter Parker and it's a win win win. He was like okay, that might work. So I go away, I do the drawing, I the costume was alive. So I go, Oh, it must be an alien. So I created this big giant hulking alien and gave him the big eyes and the slobbering teeth. And to me it was a gorilla. It's like an alien gorilla, and then the claws and everything else. And that was a design for venom.

1:51:56 I care. We didn't have a name at that point. Just go here, here's the new bad guy. Here it is. Go. And they looked at it and went, Oh, that's kinda cool. We'll give it to the writer. And so they gave it to the writer. They cleared it through upper management. They said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, that seems like a reasonable thing. The writer comes back to me and says, Uh, Todd, uh the guy is Eddie Brock.

1:52:14 And I went, woa, woa, woa, woa. The writer's name was David. Whoa, David, Eddie Brock. Eddie Brock's a human. Did you see my design? Like information I could have used earlier. I would have designed it differently if I known it was a human That I was putting the black costume on.

1:52:30 But I sort of like the design. I thought it was cool and it was giant and I thought that it would be more formidable for Spider Man to go up against something that was way bigger than him than Another human humanoid form. This is sort of the geeky stuff that us creators go through. And so I said but Man, if Bruce Banner little shit can turn into the Hulk, then by gosh.

1:52:54 Why can't Eddie Brock somehow be buried in this costume somewhere, right? So we never sort of wavered from it. Venom comes out, has a big play in issue, three hundred, amazing Spider Man three hundred. Sales go crazy. We knew we had something on our hand, because every time Venom kept coming back, the mail Again, there was no internet, but the mail kept getting bigger and people were like, Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And so now fast forward with hindsight and Venom is You know, a a worldwide brand.

1:53:24 You know, made billion dollars for Sony in a movie. So again, there's the happy accident. And if you look at issue three hundred, if you want to go buy it. It comes with a couple of things. One, it's an anniversary book. Sales are going way up on it. One, it's an anniversary book, issue three hundred Amazing Spider Men. Goodbye.

1:53:40 Some of the very first early work of me On Spider Man. And my first inking job on Spider Man. But more importantly It's the origin of venom. And so for people they spend hundreds of dollars if you get these books great, it's thousands of dollars so you can get the origin of venom.

1:53:56 I don't consider that book, if you were to ask me, is that the origin of venom? No It's the issue. How do we get that damn black costume off Peter Parker so I can draw the classic red and blue costume'cause that's Spider Man to me. Right.

1:54:09 Venom. I didn't care at that moment about Venom. It was like get rid of it. The last page of that issue. Peter Parker gets rid of the black costume because he has a fight with Venom. Venom goes on his way and he pulls a box out from underneath the bed and he pulls out the classic uniform. The red and blue the one that to me is Spider Man. And the last page, which I still have today,'cause it was like Finally, I'm drawing Spider Man because I started on issue two ninety eight.

1:54:35 Nope, black costume. Two ninety nine. Nope, black costume. And every page but one. of issue three hundred, but that last page it it was It even says, I think a caption that says and a new beginning and to me I go finally I get to draw spine. This was for me. Finally. Now.

1:54:52 Somehow Ben was the byproduct of that. Right? No. Here's what should happen, Tim. An employee should come into the office.

1:55:00 They should say no, he's wearing the black costume. We want to give you the job. On Amazing Spider Man, one of the granddaddy books. of the company and most sane employees will go Yes, sir. Yes, ma'am. What does a book do?

1:55:13 I don't know. Todd is Todd and Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. And so I just was like no I need the red and blue costume and and and but

1:55:23 Because of some of that Arrogance, ego, immaturity, whatever you want to call it. Your byproduct is you've got a character called Venom that now creates carnage in this whole sloot, right? So if I was that guy. That employee. All of that maybe never materializes. That's the true

1:55:42 possibility of that. And then I just take all of that. member Marvel's at their boring storytelling. I start pushing the boundaries of storytelling to make it more I thought dynamic. I thought everything we do in comic books is just a Broadway play. You must everything should be big and you should be talking and and performing for the lady with bad hearing that's in the last row at the theater. So that's what combooks are bravado.

1:56:06 And so I was doing all this fancy storytelling and my editors were going, Todd, you can't You can't, you can't, you can't. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. But I just kept doing it. And then I I eventually I was asking them and I go, Why can't we? And they go, Well the editor in chief, Jim Jim Shooter He doesn't like that. I found that to be impossible.

1:56:29 To believe. Impossible to believe. Tim Shooter wants Vanilla when he can have Tutti Fruity or a banana split? Hard to believe.

1:56:38 So we went and had a meeting one time, my editor uh Bob Harris, who ended up being the top dog at DC, I think he still is, maybe. And we went into this meeting with Jim Shooter, the editor in chief, where every every editor was literally shaken in the boots from Jim Shooter. He was like this authoritarian sort of figure. And he is walking in The meeting all Bob says is don't ask him about storytelling, though. 'Cause he just wanted to say hi to me'cause I was you know, this new guy on the Hulk and my career was starting to bud, and he just wanted to say hi to me. It was just a casual

1:57:10 conversation. We have a nice pleasant conversation. And then it's like it he goes, Okay, I've got to get to my next meeting and I'm going, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as we get up,'cause I want Bob to be moving, I went, Oh hey Jim, just have one one quick question. Can I change storytelling? Like let me just ask you, am I allowed to have characters burst out of the panels'cause that was what they I was doing with Spider Man. They're going, You can't, you can't. And he was right, looked at me inquisitively and went. Yeah, sure, why?

1:57:37 Okay, uh but can I can I do this other thing and he wanted Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. And I went so It's okay for me to Two'cause I go, I think I heard somebody it wasn't Bob. My editor standing in front of you. It must have been somebody else. Told me that somehow that you said you can't have things punch you can't have panels overlapping and you can't have characters punching out. And I walked them through a couple of things. And he was horrified.

1:58:02 And he was like, What? What are you saying, Todd? And I'm going, Yeah, yeah, that's just what they're telling all the artists. And he was like No, and he got angry at that moment. He goes, No, I never said that. He goes, Here's what I said. And I knew this was the answer, Tim. I knew this was the answer. He said you can't do bad overlapping panels and bad drawings of people jumping out. And then he explained to me the difference between a bad version And a good version.

1:58:30 Right. And I knew what the bad and good version was. Basically don't have a guy jumping out of a panel And you're covering up half the drawing of the next panel. As long as you're doing it in some negative space, you're okay. Just as long as the storytelling's clear, I don't care how you design it, Todd.

1:58:46 I knew it. Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding. And Shoot, from that meeting on, you take a look at my layouts in Spider Man. It w it started getting crazier and crazier. Now. Jim Shooter gets pushed out very quickly. I keep doing my Todd thing on Spider-Man. I keep

1:59:02 And here's What I did on Spider Man that literally catapulted my career. It was a simple move. They were doing Spider Man emphasis on man. I flipped it to Spider Man emphasis on the word spider. So when he put the costume on, I thought he was an insect. And I didn't care about anatomy. I didn't care whether it mattered. I just cared about the dynamics

1:59:23 Of This character looking like a bugman and crawling in a way that And then as part of that, I added more s webbing on his costume. And then I had to come up with a new way of doing his webs that have been done this way for thirty years. I go, it doesn't work if you want to shoot it towards camera, or if you want to create a false sense of volume. Which is the only thing we have as artists, you must give the illusion of three D given that you're drawn on a two D piece of paper. So Again, all these silly things that will bore people.

1:59:56 But I was doing it and oh by the way, it fucking looks cool. It doesn't bore me. No, this stuff is this is key. This is these are important. So it so I go and then it looks cool. And here's the moment we I was talking about earlier. The moment you start missing with anybody's icon. Status quo comes into the equation. And I'm now messing him. I probably could have done what I did with a lower tier character.

2:00:21 But not Spider Man. Spider Man at this point again at they're a public company. He is on their checks. Every check's got a little spidey on it. He's on their he's on their quarterly reports. He's on their internal memos. And I'm messing with that. look, right? And so they came and they were sitting there and they took it as I was doing something I thought they were doing it wrong and I was right.

2:00:47 No, no, no, no, no. Here is the reality of it, and I've said it plenty of times. I thought that the look that had been presented, the classic look that was there, the one that everybody, if you close your eyes, you have in your mind if you're a certain age, was literally the Norman Rockwell version of Spider-Man. It was Perfect. And the best I could hope for is a young budding artist. is to do a bad version of that. And go, man.

2:01:13 That's almost as cool as Norman Rockwell's painting. Let me tell you if you're gonna be a painter, never paint like Norman Rockwell, the best you're gonna get is man, he's almost as good as Norman. That's the best you can hope for. You will never be better than Norman, right? He's already conquered that hill. Go find another heel and make it your own. You can take pieces of Norman Rockwell. But you can't be

2:01:33 That exact same look. So I was putting all these different looks together and coming up with some crazy stuff and just making the spider part of it. The eyes got bigger, more webs. I reinvented the webbing. I I made the blue a little bit darker. I I forgot about anatomy and I put'em in these cool funky poses that the readers just Went crazy for And Every single time I walked into the offices, what so I didn't go there that often, they would call me on the carpet and they would say no.

2:02:02 No. Stop it. Stop it. And Tom denies it. But I'm like, Tom, there are moments of clarity in my life. This is one of them. Tom DeFalco was the editor in chief, he's an Italian guy. And he was Giving me heck again, wiggling his finger, going, You gotta stop!

2:02:16 Doing the big eyes and this and this and then he got so mad I remember his face getting a little red and he goes, And that webbing Those damn Spaghetti webbing. You gotta stop it. Now all the now from my perspective, ladies and gentlemen, if you're in my head, it's like a Charlie Brown sort of cartoon. All I heard was blah blah blah blah blah spaghetti webbing. And I want Oh my gosh, I've got a name for them now.

2:02:40 So I was like so happy in that moment because Tom gave me an official name for him. They've been known ever since has the spaghetti weapon. Thank you, Tom DeFalco. I think he was cussing me out and giving me heck at that point. I I wasn't paying attention though, because I was like, Oh, super cool. I've got I've got a name for it. He then says in in that same meeting, You gotta you just gotta control this stuff. And my answer was And if anybody Is under the age of thirty ish. Listening.

2:03:07 I'm gonna give you a bit of a golden rule. Anybody asks you to do something, especially somebody in authority, always say yes, even if you're not going to do it. It's just way easier. You get out of the room faster, no no confrontation. Just nod your head yes in agreement and go do wh whatever the hell you want. And I knew that the editors would only circle back like every ninety days. And look at the books and do their evaluation.

2:03:31 And I walked out of that room, not only did I not make the webbing smaller, I'll show you the issue. They got twice as long. Right?'Cause they just look cool. I gotta tell you, Tim, they look cool. And by the time I came back the next time the books. I've seen'em I've seen them. I have them at home. They wiggled their finger at you. And they go, No. And next time I go to New York, they'll go, No, Todd, but here's what was happening and here was their conundrum.

2:03:56 Sales were going up. Sales were going up. And At one point. Again I had that conversation.

2:04:05 Uh that it's like Tom What do you care how I draw? What do you care? All you should care about is that I am selling you comic books. And you gave me the task of moving Spider-Man, Mazing Spider-Man. From 21 up the ranks, and it's at number two right now. Jim Lee and the X-Men were beating us. And I was at one meeting, it was odd, there was this stranger in the room. I never met him before. Didn't know who he was, and he just sat there silent the whole time. He had this big fat book.

2:04:32 I didn't know who he was. And then at the finally at the end of an hour conversation, when I said that, I go, I'm selling more damn books. than almost anybody you employ right here, right now. This dude I found out later was an accountant. He opened up his big giant accounting book. Tom came behind him. The accountant didn't utter a word, he just pointed at something on his data sheet and he shook his head yes.

2:04:56 But he just said, Yes, sales are going up. And It was You could just see that it was like what do we do? Right? It's working, but we disagree with it because the status quo is getting. Let me tell your audience, here's the bizarro thing in Now that years have passed.

2:05:15 Everything they told me not to do on Spider Man that I was rebellious against and I Just stuck to my guns and I did it. And the sales are do you know that if you're a young person right now and you go to Marvel and you draw Spider-Man, do you know what style you have to draw Spider-Man in? Todd McFarlane? So the guy

2:05:37 Who was told not to create it. I've now bizarrely as I was going, no, I'm not gonna draw that status quo. I'm gonna do something funky. That my style is now the new status quo. And I don't think anybody should draw on Todd McFarland style because the next person they should be encouraging to do their thing because it might be Five times better than what I ever came up with. I don't understand corporations of just coming up with an idea and gloming onto it so hard. Yes, I'm talking to you, IBM. And then this little dudes in the garage come up with this little computer and they call it an apple. And somehow they beat you eventually because you

2:06:22 become Dinosaurs. And this is the thing. There is nobody in the world that's ever made change and Everybody like them. Especially the people who were had the power and the prestige and the money.

2:06:38 ahead of them. Nobody, if you go to any corporation and you say, I've got this new idea, you will never hear the words from the people that are the industry leaders. That sounds super cool. Let us get out of your way so you can just do that on your own, unfettered. Are you out of your mind? They will take out bazooka's and blades and put down the strips and the throwing darts and they will do everything in their powers to discourage you because they are industry leaders. But eventually

2:07:09 They become Their own Worse. Enemy. Todd, we're at almost two hours now. I've realized that we've barely scratched the surface. We've established a lot of the background, of course the personality, the rule breaking, the camel bladder. And uh we have not even touched upon your personal relationship with Stanley, which is of

2:07:31 great interest to me. We have not talked about The Toy Empire. We have not talked about how any of that started. T V, film, music. spawn. I mean there's a long list of things. that I would love to cover with you, would you be open to doing a round two? I think people would certainly

2:07:51 Could I convince you to come back for a round two? Tim, you'll find that like I'm Not shy at opening my mouth and talking to you know, to the point I'm always going, Am I am I boring people? Cause I actually know all these stories because I live them. But Yeah, I think there are some interesting forks in the road.

2:08:10 That may be not interesting for my career, but just sort of the human condition of what happens when you get to certain wall I've been talking about what I had to do in one industry, but now because of that success

2:08:28 what you just mentioned, I and it was able to break into multiple industries and found Some of the same Sort of. Repetition and how you navigate

2:08:41 The sharks when you're a guppy. Right. So uh yeah, I'll I'll I'll I'll come back. I appreciate you given hopefully We haven't bored people these two'cause they'll go, Why would I want to listen to another two? So I'll it's your show, I'll let you decide whether that works. Ultimately, I mean uh let's call it selfish, self interested. If I keep it interesting for me, just like you in those ten, twelve hour days, you gotta keep your artwork interest

2:09:06 interesting to you because otherwise and even maybe still it can be really lonely. So for me, I just try to scratch my own itch and asking questions about the things I'm interested in. So I'm very interested. I'm sure we'll have plenty of people along for the ride. And people can find you on all the social handles that I mentioned. Of course. Are there any other places you'd like to point them so we can find you on Instagram at Todd McFarland McFarland. They'll find it. What I'll try and endeavor the next time is to answer more than three questions because I think that's all you got. And I I need it I need a temper and get like Todd, he just asked you how old you are. You don't have to talk about the entire

2:09:49 sort of evolution of humanity to get to that answer, but Ha. But I think that a little bit of backstory Mm. Yeah.

2:09:58 to the reasoning why when you make that call at that moment. Matters. Oh yeah. It's critical. Paint it, hopefully some of the personality so now we can just

2:10:10 Maybe be a little Yeah. varied in the questions and we can pepper and jump around a bunch of industries and I can tell you some silly stories About those ones too. Yeah.

2:10:21 We'll get into the trenches and we can hear more of your art of war stories. Create a day I almost killed they almost killed uh Eddie Vetter. We we'll talk about that one. There we go. So that'll be that'll be the cliffhanger and everybody listening. As usual, we will put show notes and links to everything in the Show notes at Tim Dotblog slash podcast and uh until next time, don't be afraid of rocking the boat and consider your upside downside, just like you were talking about those those artists earlier. An image. It's uh human nature. What a thing.

2:10:56 Todd, thank you for making the time today. So to be continued and we'll figure out the time for round two. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. Kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading. albums perhaps gadgets gizmas all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends including a lot of podcast guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun again it's very short a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog slash Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog slash Friday.

2:12:05 Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by 8Sleep. I have been using 8 Sleep Podcover for years now. Why? Well by simply adding it to your existing mattress on top like a fitted sheet, you can automatically cool down or warm up each side of your bed. Gatesleep recently launched their newest generation of the pod, and I'm excited to test it out, Pod 4 Ultra. It cools, it heats, And now it elevates automatically. More on that in a second. First, Pod4 Ultra can cool down each side of the bed as much as 20 degrees below room temperature, keeping you and your partner cool, even in a heat wave. Or you can switch it up depending on which of you is heat sensitive.

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