From warzones to boardrooms: José Andrés on leadership learned in the kitchen

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/3cac25cb66ad350f

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We humans we've been building in the last post-World War Two a good vault. A good world.
that in America is full of imperfections and that we need to work together to fix them.
Of course! But you don't fix them burning everything down!
You fix them by
Coming together to the table, realizing that problems never will be solved by finger pointing. Problems will always be solved sitting down in the table and coming together in how we
How we find common ground? That's the way we
Build good.
Uh in ten.
Good empathy.
Good policy.
that then becomes good politics because it's on
behalf of all Americans.
That's the way we should be doing it. So that's why in a way um
I'm I'm hopeful.
That's Jose Andres, chef, restaurateur, author, and founder of World Central Kitchen.
Jose has a new book out, Change the Recipe, filled with lessons from Jose's life in the kitchen that can be applied to leadership and everyday life.
We use the book as a jumping off point to discuss everything from what rules are worth breaking to the benefits of unplugging to why everyone has the potential in Jose's words to be superhuman.
We also cover the ongoing hurdles that World Central Kitchen faces in multiple war zones around the world, the messy state of Trump's tariffs, and more. Above it all, Jose's enduring optimism shines through.
I don't know about you, but I need to hear some of that right now, so
Let's dive in. I'm Bob Sapphian, and this
Із рапід респанс.

I'm Bob Safian, I'm here with uh Jose Andres, renowned chef.
And restaurantur, TV host, author, father.
Husband and founder of World Central Kitchen. Jose, it's great to great to see you again. Thanks for being here. Happy to be back, uh
Yeah. So um you have a new book out called uh Change the Recipe.
Yes, it is not a cookbook.
It's a book about building a better world.
And or this the subtitle puts it, You Can't Build a Better World Without Breaking Some Eggs. Um, the book's filled with personal uh stories and advice. Why this book?
Why now?
Well, I don't even
Thing is uh, it's few thoughts.
Uh a few ideas of my life.
Since I was a little boy.
Um all the way until now and and things I learn.
uh things um I learn from
The right decision things we learn maybe from
The wrong decision but but that they help you to to to
to to become better.
random stories that I wanted to share with my daughters.
I wanted to share with anybody maybe interesting uh interested in finding
maybe, you know, answers to to problems they face themselves.
There's the steam in it that
Lessons from the kicchin.
are kind of applicable everywhere, you know, from the boardroom to everyday life, right? That's been your experience?
Cooking for me has never been a job. It's been something I I enjoy.
Since I was a young boy going to work early in the morning to the kitchen.
I remember I will get there early because for me
Arriving to the kitchen early before anybody else got there was
Was it I don't know, was

A kitchen come to life every single morning.
From the moment you go there like looking like a cave dark. From the moment you turn on the first lights
That you turned the ovens and everything began getting warmer and then everybody began arriving in the world. So you spend a lot of time obviously in kitchens and
Uh not only in professional kitchens, but also in the kitchen in my house.
And I I I realize that these a lot of um
moments and lessons that even
At the time.
Uh were not maybe meaningful to me because I was young or
Uh there are stories that kind of
Stay with me in my memory line of the past.
And all of a sudden as I was growing up I began giving them
uh making sense of the moment.
Uh he's been
reimagining what my father wanted to tell me when he told me you need to control the fire.
Uh sometimes I kind of romanticize the moment, maybe.
Maybe his the his words in his brain were not so deep. He only was telling me
control the fire or you cannot cook. Uh, literally.
Uh but then I began trying to imagine and then maybe behind the uh the words of wisdom
Were deeper and deeper and deeper stories.
And what what does the phrase uh mind the fire mean?
Well uh you know, this came out of a story is me helping my dad. I will help my mama in the kitchen, everybody in my uh in my house helping the kitchen, my three my three brothers, myself, my father. But my mom was Monday through Friday. My father was more the
We can cook
when more people probably will arrive. Gatherings we will do in a near forest or in a park.
And my five will cook.
very often the big pot, the big pie, and I will be always in charge of the fire and
One day I got upset because I wanted to do the cooking. I wanted to cook with him. I was
I don't even remember the exact uh age, but uh happened anywhere between
My my eleven, twelve, thirteen years old.
Uh
And my father didn't let me do the cooking because it was a very big one. The fire require a lot of
Support.
Mm.
Uh no, I need you to concentrate on the fire. I got upset, he sent me away. And then my father told me
You must control the fire.
If you don't learn how to control the fire, it it's no cooking you can do.
For a cook, a young cook in the making, controlling the fire is everything.
I think we all need to find our fire.
We need to m control it, we need to master it.
And then in a way you can do anything.
you want with your life. You can do any cooking you want with your life. So I think we are all in this search obviously that what is our fire, what
What keeps us going and are we able to master that so we can achieve anything we want. In a way this is a story of controlling the fire.
I was curious, a as a cook you think about
individual dishes and you think about the meal, how how it all comes together. And and I'm wondering in in your
Other businesses at World Central Kitchen, all your ventures. Like how do you balance the focus?
between dishes and meals you know between projects
And mission.
Or d are they not separate for you?
Well, I'm fifty five and and I'm uh I'm still little bit confused of what my role in life is.
Like the rest of us. And I think it's okay.
Because if you recognize you are confused sometimes you keep searching.
Maybe it's one of the reasons.
Uh
I turn everybody crazy around me.
Because I try to do
So many things. But but it's not the number of things I do it's
is how diversified the world is in the amount of things you want to be part of.
Um, because I think it's good that you are involved. But being involved doesn't make you an expert.
But
At the very least you're learning in real time with Woods on the ground
What happens?
when I was a younger cook and I began being the chef of my own restaurant and then
partner and owner of my own restaurant company. I I wish I knew more about business back then, but I didn't go to business school.

But in a place where everything else are you?
I I am a cook that feeds the few. I always
Had the interest to be part of Hill in the Money's uh we all have a talent.
Within us.
That goes beyond
what we think of ourselves. Mm-hmm.
Uh in a way I think everybody is a superhum. They they need to believe it.
And they need to see the talents they have.
And even talents they have and they don't
Pride themselves for it?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, very powerful tool for them.
to make people around them even better. So
it's okay to move away from my business domain and become volunteering in a local soup kitchen.
Which is also food and is also business in a way.
The business of giving opportunity to people that are known in the process they become cooks.
Like when I began joining this Central Kitchen, which is my favorite
uh NGO in America.
That they do something as simple as giving people the chance to belong?
training them to be cooks, feeding the homeless population, firing food waste
Oh my god. It's like
We need more of

NGO that they have the mentality of a for profit. In the process of all of that.
Uniting the dots.
I become
Better at understanding
What are the solutions to the problems we face?
versus blaming and finger pointing to everybody for everything is wrong is involving yourself in everyday
life that surrounds you to make obviously your business or your work place better, to make your your street better, to make your neighborhood better.
Uh obviously your family, your friends.
In the process everybody contributing.
In order to do that, we we don't have to do it.
But I see that everybody has that.
feeling of doing something. Being the coach on your on your on your children's game. That's an amazing way to create it's a lot of ways everybody contributes. Only we need to make sure that all of that is
multiply in such a ways that then the problems stop being problems and become amazing opportunities to keep moving forward.
Your fire is
As a cook.
But as you as you talk about all this
I mean you've got fire as a
As a business person, as someone who's trying to sort of use levers to amplify
Even though you may not define yourself that way.
Well, but probably one of the m my company is in a good moment. Um
Still we are not out of the water completely after COVID. Many, many companies in America, especially
I in in the area I know a little bit more, which is the restaurant company we went through
a lot of hardships and you keep looking at the future to make sure that the decisions you keep making today uh you make them learning from decisions maybe you made in the past and then you regret you made them um before Covid came, for example. So it's all always learning and that's what I keep um that's what I keep doing every day. Um
Every day of my life. Along with the book, you also have a new T V show.
Premiering
Shortly called Yes Chef.
Right, co host is Martha Stewart. It sounds like you two
Had fun together.
Well, Martha is an amazing uh human being. My God is like v so full of energy.
Uh so for the wisdom. And was it fun?
Oh, it was very fun. And I put my phone away.
and dedicated myself used to do the show.
I've time to meet the people.
Mm.
I'm I'm I'm realising that I'm not even
Mm having the time?
Mm.
To do it right now even with my restaurants because we call a very big mountain of
More people you have to meet, more people which is necessary.
But this one moment you are only one person.
And I realise and especially this last year, everything is very overwhelmed. So for me doing the show was a way used to
I'm gonna do the show and I'm gonna have fun.
And I try to to meet every one of the cameramen.
Uh we shot in Toronto.
Um amazing people.
Um uh and I met everybody I could and and we played the arts.
and I kinda went two three times to amazing restaurants in in Toronto. I cook a lot at home.
'Cause it was cold and snowy every day and was raccoons all over the house and I love that all of that. But
This long story was to tell you that I really enjoy the moment
But the message I I uh what I realize is that sometimes
In the last few years I've been in the grumpy side more times than I like.
And and and I realized that
Has a lot to do.
We've been
Um
Overwhelmed sometimes?
Pressure on your shoulders of a lot of things you are
living that is not the fault of any b anyone, they're on mine because I'm the one that gets into
So many things.
then maybe I don't have to get into so many things. Even I have great people that
That
manage them. I'm only just very lucky that when I open my mouth things happen or they start happening.
Yeah.
But I realise that sometimes you still

Breath in, breathe out.
Do one thing and put everything you got into the one thing.
allows you to fulfill and enjoy the moment so much more than when you keep always trying to do hundred things at once. And this is is the big learning from this show. So yeah, I hope the show will do great.
I I got to know Martha even more. I think we are now
Even
Uh you need to ask it, but I think even more friends we keep texting each other now.
Uh, was it very, very, very special, very emotional because it's real people, real twelve chefs that they're going through.
their own life issues and restaurant issues and and they go into this competition that is a competition but it's a quarter million dollar on the line.
And in the process they need to fulfill who they are as a chef, as a person, as a mother, as a father, as a boyfriend. Wow. All these things are gonna be part of the show. So yeah, MBC, twenty eighth of April, ten PM, uh after the boys
Uh ten episodes
Yes, chef.
When we last talked
Mm.
probably two plus years ago for the for this show. And you were focused on Ukraine. It was six months after Russia invaded Ukraine.
You world central kitchen was feeding millions of people. You just come back from talking to Zelensky.
You were s kind of struggling to maintain balance in your life, you know? You felt sort of this.
This weight of other troubles on you.
Дюю філ
Any lighter today? No.
No.
No.
The last two years and a half, if anything, they've been more
More brutal, right? Um
Um
You know. I it's been more than a year. I didn't go back to Ukraine now, but again.
Um
Uh one thing is Wolf Dragitchen, another thing is Jose Andrés. Um and he's a good thing.
Even though we're involved, we will send a kitchen.
In the last days we've been able to be delivering.
Um sixty, I don't know, up to hundred we're trying to do. But
big generators because um many
of the rural farmers, um
And especially cow milk producers.
W in lack of electricity, the all the
all the el electricity grid has been damaged enormously. It's many parts that they have zero electricity and probably be years before they repair it. We've been able to deliver those massive generators that will simplify the lives of of of milk producers. Uh we are doing other things uh in of that sort
We build uh a kitchen in the north.
um in Cher in Chernoivan. So we helped build one kitchen that is feeding, I don't know, up to ten schools out of that central kitchen. Not close to the front lines, but
close enough by being supporting organization that is trying to bring
The thousands and thousands of
Yeah, Ukrainian children.
That they've been taken by Russia?
And obviously the efforts of all central kitchen. We are not doing the numbers we used to do, but with um over three hundred million meals.
We had.
Without a doubt we were the biggest humanitarian organization in Ukraine, especially for a year and a half.
We we took cover in the first year in ways nobody else was able to do. But
But
it's not good or bad. It's the space we occupy. We are the
the quick faster and we can become very massive if we get the support of the people. Myself personally as one more volunteer, I've been
In Ukraine, I was in Turkey, in Syria on the
on the on the on the huge earthquake. Everybody told me you shouldn't go to Syria and probably I was supposed to listen, but it was important for me
that they saw with boots on the ground what was going on in Syria, we were able to put a lot of hundreds of thousands of mills every single
Uh day to help the people in northern Syria that
between a word they're forgotten. Imagine.
Wars of the words when you already were in a hole even deeper. So for me it was important we were there and there we were.
Uh I've been in other scenarios. I was in in Asheville in North Carolina in the mountains every day in a helicopter, joining Bulls and Drug kitchen team and delivering food. Uh I was the same in Valencia where more than two hundred and thirty people also die in a big flooding.
That nobody saw coming?
Um where thousands and thousands of homes disappear.
Uh tens of thousands. Thousands of business were underwater.

And I went there to because obviously it's the country I come from and I had to be there. Even moments I say I don't wanna do it anymore. Uh I I don't have to. I've been doing this fifteen years now and
It's a volunteer job.
Uh that's a mother is is but uh I have a hard time.
Uh staying away, I buy Gasa, I buy Lebanon, I won
I went to Egypt, I went to Israel.
Um, this laser it's been hard the last almost two years. So you mention
You know, uh is any more weight. Well, I mean, we began feeling in Israel when Israel was attacked, uh by Hamas.
At the same time we were in Gaza because we had to be Gaza. Obviously Gaza became much more massive for us. We reach close to half a million meals a day.
Um, we open almost we helped support almost ninety hundred and ninety six kitchens, which was the right thing to do. Putting aside the walls, putting aside the inventions, putting aside
And and that's what uh what I've been doing. Um making sure that the least food gives h opportunity and hope to people.
Yeah. This all kinds with weight. Obviously this last year we lost uh seven members of Ulsen Draghi Chan.
Um in in uh strike by the ADF.
And obviously we're trying to still search for answers even we got some answers, but still you want more answers. Uh on behalf of everybody.
Um and with a very simple idea that
You know. The future of anybody that is fighting with each other is just to live in peace.
Can be Russians with Ukrainians, Israelites and Palestinians?
Is the same questions from a lot of people?
Why? You here?
People from Israel that wanted to go to help fit in Palestine, people in Palestine that wanted to go help fit in Israel.
I believe it's the silent majority that usually won't goodness.
The ones who live in peace.
And that's what I obviously tried to do.
personally building longer tables, seeing people that maybe they were not meant to know each other or that they seem they are at odds with each other.
to see that there's much more humanity within within every one of them.
And the the vast majority of the people
I put my hand on the fire.
That that's what they want. What is good for me?
Must be good for you too.
Jose's openness to varied communities counter to the what's in it for me vibe these days. So how can turning to others help us thrive as individuals, businesses, and countries, especially in a time of increasing volatility?
We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.
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Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies.
Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future?
That is human centered.
I'm Rana El Calyubi.
And on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone.
Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future.
and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives.
Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.
Before the break, chef and world central kitchen founder Jose Andres previewed his new book, Change the Recipe, and talked about why longer tables, not higher walls, are critical to solving the world's biggest problems. Now he shares lessons about what rules are worth breaking, where he finds hope in the face of crisis, and more.
Let's jump back in.
One of the book's key themes is adaptability.
Right. And and for many people, especially today
very volatile. There can be panic, there can be paralysis.
How do you center yourself in those moments and how much do you think adaptability
Is about
Sort of temperament.
Versus something we can learn.
I think the human
uh DNA of who we are. We we are a species that we are highly adaptable.
We we are not adaptable with our bodies meaning
Evolution happens over
Hundreds of thousands, millions of years.
But our brain can.
And our heart can.
Hm.
Our heart in ways of
Things that you didn't care.
Forever.
That didn't make you a bad person. But once you find out what something is like
your heart adapt.
Um
Uh
And we change.
You talk in the book about about breaking rules.
And and that you need to break rules to make progress. Yeah. Obviously that one can be used in many ways. Yeah.
Because you you could argue that our rules breaking
being broken right now.
uh government.
I wanna ask you,'cause you're in favor of rule breaking sometimes to get certain things done. But let me tell you what like what there are different kinds of things.
You show up somewhere.
And somebody comes and tells you
that you are not needed here.
Mm.
And you're looking around and you are only seeing hunger?
Destruction.
I'm sorry, but you know, I I wanna be respectful.
But
If I see that Disney, we're gonna stay here because our our
our mission uh is not gonna be following your guidance, it's gonna be
Following
What the people
are telling us.
And so this is a way of breaking rules. We were told sometimes in some hurricanes in America that some schools
We couldn't use the kitchens.
And the school kitchen was the best kitchen.
In
Many
Kilometers
Around.
And was complicated to navigate through roads and destruction.
And even we were told we couldn't use the kitchen, we use the kitchen.
We got in trouble.
We got in trouble until
Oh, you're feeding two thousand people every day?
I think that's a role that
I will I will not even not mind to pay a penalty or even be send you. Right. You're okay if you pay a penalty for breaking those rules because
The goal is
Important enough. That that's what these breaking the rules means. Sometimes the rules are in your own brain.
He's breaking the chains of the
On rules that you set on your own.
that don't allow you to do the extra. Step
To make something happen. Sometimes their rules then they're not really rules. You've just taken them as rules.
Mm.
I wanna ask you, there's something else you write about in the book, uh the difference between thinking like software and
And thinking like hardware. Yeah. Can you explain
Yeah well that is obviously i this is a one that uh in emergencies I learned a long time ago. Very often in emergencies.
You can hear presidents.
We are positioning
um military or helicopters or boats or foot
Or Emory or Water
Or
Or ambulances. Okay.
Uh all of that is
But Harvard.
The how were our two things that will allow you to have a good
Response.
Everybody's gonna be working on bringing the hardware
To ground zero.
Mm.
A week later, two weeks later.
You're still in the business of being a transportation company that you are trying to move hardware from point A to ground zero.
All of a sudden you forgot who you were.
Who you were.
A feeling organization.
Mm-hmm.
Subware will allow you to respond.
To your
main mission which is feeding people on day one. What's ever is what do you have around to feed people.
Mm-hmm.
What is
at your finger points today. I'm gonna be perfect.

Clean
uh basket container to go, maybe tamales in a banana leaf. Because it's the only thing we have. We don't even have forks or knife. That allows you to give to somebody a piece of food that actually you can be holding in your hands and you are feeding they one in the heart of Puerto Rico.
Mm.
With nothing.
So that's the Howard Burst of Software.
Never forget your mission. Never forget what you're there for.
for any organization. Every organization has to be having very clearly
What your mission is.
a smaller phrase possible and never let anybody forget that.
If not your

Concentrating on the software will always allow you
To be faster and quicker.
As you you're talking about technology, I recently did an episode with Mark Lorry.
The the founder of Wonder, the Yes, you know w uh the food delivery app. I know you've collaborated with Wonder. And Mark talked about how he uses AI.
To pick all of his meals.
Like every meal, and he thinks it's one day everybody's gonna do that, and you're even gonna use it as a re at a restaurant to pick your meals for you.
Has he talked to you about this? Do you do you have you tried it? Do you do you think this is a g a a good thing? Anything Mark says um
I will support because Mark is one of those amazing brains. Uh planes that will fly us away. Uh I think use bought the the Minnesota uh the Timberlowers uh and so many other things. And obviously Wonder I know very well I'm underboard.
The big thing for me in AI is when I tell um
Aye. What are the food problems and food solutions?
That American planet Earth.
And AI right now at the best can do is giving you a very good glimpse of all the different situations for this problem and can be a solution. And it's things people don't even imagine. But for this everything, for this national security, for this defence, for this immigration, for this science, for this health, uh, for for for for this the the economy.
Food is very much in everything and we don't and we don't even realize. We only have food in planet Earth for around
Uh six, seven weeks, no more.
I think the number is at the moment ninety days. Is the total food that we have stored to feed the eight billion people on planet Earth. If a major thing will happen.
At once.
And it's been glimpses in the past.
That we had.
Back to back hurricanes in high productive food areas of America, Central America.
Tornadoes?
Droughts?
Best.
Wiping out food production, wiping out cattle, uh, wiping out eggs, wiping out chickens. Imagine if the perfect storm
happens. We have enough food to eat in planet Earth. We won't
Uh well.
Why we are not finding the way to make sure that
those people that are really poor we distribute that excess of food through better distribution, et cetera.
That's the problem now.
We have enough.
But no everybody is receiving the food.
And we should be solving this problem. I believe it's highly solvable. But we have another problem that is brewing in the back.
And I don't think anybody's giving enough attention. That's why I'm asking for a national food security advisor to the president. What happened if one day we wake up and we say
Today is not enough food.
To feed America.
These are the problems that I hope AI will come up with.
Mark is saying this is the way uh I will listen to Mark because
We need more brains like Mark solving problems. And it doesn't seem we have the people or the experts concentrated in what can become potentially.
A very big problem.
Not too far away from today. So I want to ask you one last question. Are you optimistic today about America?
I am I am optimistic in the way that
Um
In life humans we we'll we we we learn how to adapt.
And we
We seem sometimes we learn the lessons.
Even it seems we only learn them.
Short term and we have a short memory.
And then we need to go back to the mistakes of the past.
To remind ourselves
that this other is always a better way.
The last issues with Tariff ha happened what over almost ha over a hundred years ago? And I guess nobody is alive that went through
the great pains that those tariffs created.
Therefore sometimes you have to go through problems to remind every human
How good our life is.
How m how much we have to work
to keep improving what doesn't work. But my God.
I'm masking everybody.
Go out right now.
walking your cities, walk in the countryside, take a look at the uh at the at the trees with the flowers and the butterflies and the children playing in the cab grounds in poor neighborhoods and in in in in in in in in rich neighborhoods. Use people uh uh walking alongside uh fifty years married hand by hand
And you're smiling that they spend their lives together. Take a look around and airports that they function in a very amazing way that they don't know how. Things actually work.
We we humans we've been building in the last post-World War Two a good world.
A good wall.
that in America is full of imperfections and that we need to work together to fix them.
Of course.
But you don't fix them burning everything down. You fix them by
Coming together to the table, realizing that problems never will be solved by finger pointing. Problems will always be solved sitting down in the table and coming together and how we
how we find common ground. That's the way we
Bill Good uh in 10.
Good empathy.
Good policy.
That then becomes good politics because it's on
On behalf of all Americans.
That's the way we should be doing it. So that's why in a way I'm hopeful.
Well thank you so much for doing this. Your energy your energy your spirit may be uh may be hard, but it's your energy is great.
Change the recipe.
Books now.

It's hard not to get caught up in the rhythm and whimsy of Jose's mind. I never know quite where he's gonna go next, but I'm never disappointed. At a time where finger pointing and tribalism is on the rise, it's refreshing to hear how Jose still sees the best in people.
He's upbeat about what humanity has the power to achieve if we work together to solve problems, yet his optimism isn't naive, he's pragmatic.
leaning into boots on the ground action.
As we all try to navigate today's volatile climate,
Let's see if we can inject at least a little bit of Jose's romance for life along the way.
It couldn't hurt and it might just help.
I'm Bob Safian.
Thanks for listening.

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