Rapid Response: The Guardian’s secret weapon against media’s collapse, with CEO Anna Bateson

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Yeah. One of the most helpful things I was told by a rather informed board member.

1:38 was that even the most sophisticated engineers working in the most extraordinarily frontier level kind of AI don't really know what's going to happen in the next sort of twelve weeks, let alone in the next 12 months. You could spend weeks doing plans for the next five years which will become irrelevant and sort of redundant, and actually Not trying to do longer sort of kind of forecasting or planning, but actually thinking how do we set ourselves up to be ready to kind of adapt and adjust. That's what I try and focus on. That's Anna Bateson, CEO of Guardian Media Group, publisher of The Guardian.

2:18 The Guardian has had remarkable success as a news brand, growing globally when other aspirers like the Washington Post have struggled. That's in part because of the Guardian's unusual ownership structure under the umbrella of a 90-year-old trust that helps provide stability, but Anna has also embraced the exceedingly modern. realities of speed, flexibility, and focus. I wanted to learn how The Guardian is tapping into multiple business models and into the emotional aspects of a brand to differentiate itself. And Anna did not disappoint. So let's get into it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

2:59 I'm Bob Safi, and I'm here with Anna Bateson, CEO of Guardian Media Group. Anna, thanks for uh joining us. Well, thank you for having me. Today the Guardian is the fifth most trafficked news site in the world. M more than one point four million subscribers provide regular financial support. It's it it's an impressive feat for You know, for a legacy British

3:25 newspaper to turn into a a global brand, especially when other news outlets are struggling. Um I'm I'm eager to learn your secret. Is there is there a a single secret that that underlies all of this? No, there's never a single secret. Um I think there are a number of things that really uh contributed The first is that we were very early to embrace digital and to see the opportunities of digital.

3:49 And um that decision, which is I think thirty years ago or something, took us from being the ninth biggest national newspaper in the UK, so inherently parochial to a to a degree, to really build audiences all around the world. The uniqueness of our ownership model The independence that's endowed by the Scott Trust also allows us to think long term and that did allow us uh the opportunity to grow Didn't feel as though we were in a good position ten years ago, when s when you began to realize that crucially digital advertising wasn't gonna sort of um substitute for for print advertising.

4:24 Um, but it actually that was the basis then of us being able to build the real revenue model. The first important thing was embracing digital. Does that make you more Um aggressive about embracing AI because that's maybe the next turn in the business. Uh no, I don't think it makes us more aggressive about embracing AI. I think it means that

4:47 We are genuinely a um a deeply digital organization. We look at AI through a particularly informed lens. Quite a curious lens. We have aimed to try and be really cautious and thought, actually, in how we endeavour to understand AI, in how we think about its application within our organization, across all aspects of the organization.

5:13 The changes it's going to make to our audience's behaviors. It's incumbent on all of us to truly understand it as a technology. And I think you can only understand it by by applying it and by using it. You mentioned the Guardian is owned by a private trust. Yes. So um That means you don't need to necessarily pass down all of your profit. The revenue you generate can be reinvested in the content. Yes. And you've kinda got a a backstop in tougher times, if I'm understanding that correctly. Are there any downsides to this structure? Any complications?'Cause you are fairly unusual to have this kind of a setup.

5:50 Yes, it is unusual. I think it's an enormous strategic advantage for us. A really key point of differentiation. The sole purpose of the Scott Trust is to ensure that the Guardian thrives in perpetuity. So that's an extraordinarily privileged um ownership structure to to be the beneficiary of.

6:08 We have quite a lot of governance as a result. So that's something that we Navigate. But no, I I I think that this is it's an advantage for us and It's it's definitely something That our audiences understand.

6:22 It's a big motivator for them, um, when they choose to support the journalism. They know that money. is going to fund journalism and it isn't going to enrich, you know, a proprietor or shareholders. And you as the CEO, you have limitations maybe that you

6:40 Might not because of some of the the structural things. But at the same time Y you don't have to worry about shareholders. So there's there's a little bit of a trade off there, right? Completely. Yes. I mean I um Uh The editor in chief, um, and I report to the GMG board, she ultimately reports to the Scott Trust.

6:59 Which is it's a structural way of guaranteeing editorial independence and integrity. And the relationship is one that's described as A happy partnership, a a happy marriage. And we're meant to be arm in arm. The commercial and editorial um strategies and ambition are symbiotically intertwined. When you see the challenges of the Washington Post, I think that Never has it sort of seemed more clear.

7:26 Um, how actually the structural guarantee around that editorial impendence, it's a very significant thing. It's a very important thing. Hm. Most legacy news organizations depend on ad dollars, even in the digital age. The Guardians leaned on support from readers. Um, supporters, although the Guardian is is free.

7:49 How do you get people to pay for something That's free. So uh First of all, we also have advertising. Advertising is very important to us.

7:59 However, you're right, we have the f the the stability of essentially having built this um now really quite significant global supporter base. One of the things that our ownership structure enables us to do is to be open about um our publishing and and available to all. Um so When we first started to to to build out our reader revenue model. It was optional. You're you're correct. It wasn't forced um by being gated around um a paywall.

8:28 It was all about unlocking the words and the the roots and the messages to essentially um uh Explain what what reader support could give us. And then to make it incredibly easy and frictionless. We do have some paid products, so it's not completely true that we're just completely free. If you subscribe to our app We ask you to pay after you've used a certain amount. We have um a cooking um product which we ask you to pay for.

8:55 But we are committed To this to the to the principle of being open and freely available on the web. I talked uh on the show with your your counterpart, your colleague at the New York Times, Meredith Cop at Levian, um, who, you know, is also one of a handful of sort of legacy print outfits that in managed to be uh to be thriving. And she talked a lot about lifestyle verticals. You mentioned cooking. She talked about cooking and games and other things.

9:24 When you think about your your business plan, do you Crack. that sort of similarly, or how much is your model more like like a domination based resource like Wikipedia. You're sort of straddling those two things. Yes, well, I have nothing but admiration for the New York Times and indeed for Meredith.

9:43 And I have nothing but admiration actually for Wikipedia. And you're completely correct that I I think we probably drew inspiration from from both of those kind of, you know, um august Yeah, institutions. If you think about it, newspapers were the original bundle. A bundle different verticals put together in a beautifully designed, elegantly delivered product. And we've always been good at cooking, you know, we've always been good at cultural content. We've we've long been great at lifestyle. We've always had games, you know, it's a very important piece of of a newspaper to have cross. Um

10:17 So in a sense As you think about um taking The areas that are defining of us. And transitioning those into a digital world. It's not really surprising that we end up um, you know, kind of um

10:31 Consolidating in the same sorts of areas, you know, puzzles are wonderful things. They're they're all about driving habit, you know, that's something that you want to do every day. It's really how do you best unlock your strengths that you have and use that to reach audiences and unlock the most value from those audiences around the world. Mm. You're also sort of leaning into And able, I guess, because with your structure to reinforce the the mission of the organization, which allows you to sort of

11:00 uh emulate Wikipedia as we were talking about, right? To to sort of have that loyalty be part of what the appeal is in in supporting the Guardian? Whenever we do um audience research, that sense of the emotional desire to support journalism is common. So so people believe that the the mission is important. They believe in the um significance of the of the independent ownership model. There's a real sense of I'm supporting something that I value, but other people value too. Also Ultimately it allows those people who can't afford to pay also to be able to consume it and have access to it.

11:38 Which is really important in the in this Modern world. In terms of business model. Several high profile media outlets have turned to billionaires for support. The LI Times, the Washington Post, uh Time Magazine. The tone that you m mentioned early made me think that

11:57 You may not feel like this benefactor model is necessarily Good. Um I I'm curious about that. I mean, the magazine where I worked as editor in chief Fest Company was owned by a single business leader who was quite supportive.

12:11 But as you say, certainly the Washington Post is embroiled in questions around Jeff Bezos' commitment and pressure. I'm not sure it's for me to judge whether a benefactor model is good or bad. I think it has risks. And I think that for a l for a long time Perhaps Um uh media organizations saw benefactors as saviours.

12:31 that hope and belief that you could have benign, you know, kind of benefactors. I just think that there are moments When the the personal interests of a benefactor may or may not come into conflict of a genuinely independent um editorial organisation. When the Washington Post and the LA Times quash their twenty twenty four US

12:54 presidential endorsements with under pressure from the owners. The Guardians US editor, Betsy Reid, went the other way and sort of called them out in a in a fundraising pitch that raised Something like two million dollars. Yes. coordinate when it comes to generating funds? Like is this something that you talk about or or

13:19 Betsy just decides I'm gonna do this. No, it's very collaborative. I mean, I think it's it's one of the things that is so fascinating. about the reader revenue model. And we've obviously got to evolve our language about that, because they're not they're much broader than readers now, but but is the the level of collaboration that takes place between editorial and and the commercial teams. And in a way, it's the it's the logical evolution of an organization away from a very siloed sort of church and state where you had you had editorial and you had advertising and they didn't really need to ever sort of, you know, um become into kind of contact with one another.

13:56 And I think that the essence of of of the audience funding model is that there is a greater collaboration ultimately You know, Betsy would decide what she um felt was the right kind of, you know, message. But it would be done in in deep concert with um the weed and revenue side. And in in that instance, like when when that idea came up, was there any

14:19 concern of like ooh we don't want to you know Pick a fight in that way. We talked about it, um, but in the end it it It was something that we wanted to do and I think it was the right thing to do. I think it was the right thing to do. um editorially and it was the right thing to do for our supporters. It was a very emotional moment and that translated into a lot of people I think coming to the Guardian and choosing to support our journalism in a way that they hadn't before.

14:46 The Guardian's known for its sort of um unapologetically progressive values. And and I'm curious. how that impacts your business goals. I mean, some might say it colors Trust in your journalism.

15:01 So first of all, the lens that we are viewed Through. Is interestingly different. In the UK, where we have a long legacy and longstanding understanding about our editorial position.

15:14 It's a much less entrenched view when you get into mainland Europe, into the US, into into the rest of the world. And actually what I think Um our audiences appreciate there. is very much this sense of a global perspective. And so it's it's less, I think, about this um

15:33 This association with Unashamed progressive values, although I think that is the truth for us. It's also the fact that we have a perspective that is very different and distinctive to a US based um to a US based kind of perspective. You know, Trump. The Iran War

15:50 Tech. Climate immigration there's something very appreciated by audiences of our ability to have a, you know, non-US sort of rooted perspective. The the capacity to contextualize or frame the story that comes from also having a European perspective or a British perspective or an Australian perspective or a Canadian perspective.

16:16 It's just that we can bring a broader context and a um uh a voice that is from You know, many other places and not deeply kind of grounded and rooted in one place. The Guardian is such a distinctive operation, its business model, its broad context, as Anna describes it, even its openness about progressive values. So how are AI chatbots impacting its work? And what does Anna really think about Jeff Bezos' stewardship of the Washington Post? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.

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17:41 Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana Al Chayubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives.

18:14 Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Before the break, the Guardian's Anna Bateson shared how it's distinctive business supports distinctive content. Now she talks about how The Guardian has sidestepped the impact of AI chatbots so far, and what Jeff Bezos misunderstood when he bought the Washington Post. Plus, the role the Guardian can play in the future of news, and How she keeps the business anchored in the here and now. Let's jump back in.

18:46 Before coming to the Guardian, you were For Google. And YouTube. the transition from from search to AI chat bot to things like Google's Gemini, you know, summaries. Yeah. That has

19:01 Um Cut down traffic a lot for a lot of Uh a lot of content. outlets and a lot of folks struggle with that. How how are you Thinking about that, does that make you look

19:14 At Google any differently? We have not seen declines in audience that have been reported for um other media organizations. In fact, we've seen incredibly strong and resilient audiences, particularly in the US. We've actually just overtaken the Washington Post.

19:31 So January and February for kind of readership within the US, which is quite a sort of significant moment from our perspective. Um So I don't think we're naive that there's clearly deep disruption and kind of um change coming in the way that people are going to discover and then choose to consume the news that they want to kind of read or the or or watch or you know listen to.

19:55 However We aren't seeing that level of of of change yet reflected in our audience numbers. Is there anything that you're doing like are you Blocking, you know But

20:06 from AI companies from crawling your content or Or is this more do you think about The brand affinity that people have with The Guardian. Like, do you do you have a sense of why it's not hitting you the way it's hitting others?

20:20 There is a piece around brand affinity and around, you know, genuinely differentiated quality original journalism. the meaningful relationship that I think our audiences therefore have have with us. Which allows us to potentially be more resilient, you know, and have more direct traffic. I think it is also about how um the search experience is developing. There is a different experience around sort of hard news, serious, than there might be about softer lifestyle kind of uh media and and coverage.

20:53 The Guardian is a is a founding member of a coalition called the Strategic Partnership for Uplifting Rights, or Spur, which which is intended, I guess, to design better guidelines for AI training. Can you explain what the motivation behind SPR is and and what you've seen so far? at this time when you're when you are facing um very well funded and very sophisticated kind of technology organizations We need to rise to that moment. We need to work together as an industry. So I think the first piece of it was how can we collaborate? And it's and it's important that that the founding members were both broadcasters and former newspapers, and they're acor they're across the the the the sort of the political spectrum. We then have every intention that this will then broaden out and become a global coalition. defining um standards and protocols that are really going to be necessary to the creation of a potential licensing market around quality, um quality journalism and content.

21:54 We ought to be defining those standards and protocols rather than having them defined for us by technology. Businesses. Mm. We talked about your structure earlier around your business model. And I'm curious whether you think that

22:09 structure gives the guardian A certain kind of role in the media ecosystem and how it evolves. Do you feel like you you have to be a leader in a different kind of way maybe, or you know, it allows you to be a leader in a different kind of way? Yes, I think there is a there is a sort of a a sense of some responsibility.

22:28 The secondary purpose of the Scott Trust is is is broader. If the primary purpose is, you know, ensuring the sustainability of the Guardian in perpetuity, a secondary purpose is around ensuring that that that liberal journalism can flourish. The leadership challenges of running Any organization right now are Are quite

22:48 Intense. Our Like are you thinking about your Your role within the Guardian. Differently are there.

22:57 Particular things about how you manage the team or manage the planning that You know That might Mm-hmm.

23:07 That might be instructive. One of the most helpful things I was told uh by a a rather um informed board member um was that even the most sophisticated engineers working in the most extraordinarily frontier level kind of um AI. don't really know what's going to happen in the next sort of twelve weeks, let alone in the next twelve months. And I found that really helpful, you know.

23:33 Focus on curiosity about kind of what's happening and capabilities within the organization and flexibility because you can you could spend, you know, weeks doing plans for the next five years, which will become irrelevant and, you know, sort of redundant before you know it. And actually Not trying to do long longer sort of kind of forecasting or planning, but actually thinking, how do we set ourselves up, equip ourselves, skill up. really to be an organization that's ready to kind of adapt and adjust as we're going to need to. That's what I try and focus on, and I think that as a leadership team. Uh it's incumbent on us to sort of

24:13 hang on to that humility and to continue to keep learning and be curious about what's happening. And that's what will, I think, um equip us for what's to come. It's a very different framework than the traditional way business worked, right? I mean, I'm sure you still have to have plans and budgets that, you know, that extend out farther, but if if really you can't see more than twelve weeks out, It's pretty hard to plan. Yes, I mean well.

24:40 It's it's easy to plan, right? Just you've got to be able to adapt when the plan that you know begins to veer off course. There's a discipline and a rigor around planning, which is actually really useful. But I think it's um being able to be um adaptable enough that when the plan begins to change, you can accommodate that. When I first came into media in the late nineties. These organizations were making so much money.

25:05 Like hand over fist. And I sometimes wonder whether the expectations about how much Money news organizations should make Is a little bit more. out out of whack like we're trying to turn them into growth businesses when they're really more cash flow businesses. And obviously you don't have quite the same pressure of that because of the because of the trust structure, but I I'm just curious whether you

25:29 Feel that way or have any thoughts about that. I think you are correct in your observation. There was an expectation that the kind of returns that you could get that probably is unsustainable now. But also I think If you're building a news organization now, you would build it in a very different way with a very different cost structure. And that might allow you then to be a growth business and to deliver the kind of returns proportionately that perhaps they used to.

25:57 So it's it's both sides, isn't it? It's can you restructure yourself to adapt to a a new reality. And also can you culturally you know, evolve sufficiently to be operating in a way that that Will allow you to grow. That's the thing that the New York Times has done so

26:15 spectacularly well, which has allowed them to not only invest in journalism, but actually build out a very successful set of of Of subscription based businesses. I guess sometimes I think that, you know When Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post, he didn't really r realize what he was buying and what he was getting into.

26:37 I think that's probably right. There were years when you thought you were going to solve the problems by technology, and actually the fact that that Wasn't gonna solve the problems was masked. by the enormous sort of growth in audience and engagement that was Trump, and then of course was Covid. You think you have The answers because you come in and you look at these businesses and you've been very successful elsewhere.

27:00 And and they're more complicated than that, you know, and they're complicated Both because of legacy and because of the changing market. The expectations, right? I mean, listen, the how much money the the Washington Post makes one way or the other is not really measurable on on Jeff Bezos's, you know, P L. Like it's his personal wealth. It's a it's a rounding error, right? I suspect that Um

27:25 it's less about the amount of money and it's more about what that kind of um uh financial performance symbolises about the sustainability and the health of the organization. You can live with loss, but if you feel that they are the sign of something that's more problematic, that I think then becomes the thing that's troubling. In some ways I think it it would make more sense for the Washington Post to be structured as a nonprofit. I know I talked to I talked to the owner at Fast Company at certain times about, you know, should we

27:58 convert this to be a nonprofit because you know ha it because that really that's what its mission is is about. Um but when you have folks who are owners who are business people, they believe that that uh profit imperative You know. pushes certain kinds of results and and gets rid of uh complacency. I have some sympathy for that.

28:21 That perspective. A Commercial ambition. and drive As long as it's compatible with and supportive of editorial independentness.

28:32 Is a good thing to have. I think you're right. You don't want your organization to be complacent and you don't want People not to care really about kind of um The the the commercial kind of underpinnings of where they work.

28:47 How do you Reinforce and encourage that. That commercial side when You know, that's not the way you're structured. We are

28:59 held to account around, you know, financial performance and and financial sustainability. Editorial impact is only really um secure and sustainable if it's attached to a business model that that is also kind of secure and sustainable. That I think is is Is a message that

29:20 Is understood. And I think crucially There's it's amazing how once you begin to see that something's working and that that is a a sign of genuine relationships with audiences who believe in what you're doing, who see the impact of it, who value it. The momentum that you get from that is very powerful. I think in the end, you know Relevance and impact is what what what we're all here to do. And and and the fact that people want to support us and the fact that people want to partner with us, you know, brands and advertisers want to partner with us.

29:52 is indicative of of us achieving what it is that that we're aiming for. Absolutely. Commercial success is uh is a a a hallmark, a sign that you're that you're connecting. Right. It's

30:05 The validation that audiences understand that this is important, valuable, and you know, kind of um necessary work. I hear this all the time from colleagues that that news organizations are are facing so many threats, overlapping threats, technological, political, economic. And I'm curious. Like

30:29 How Bleak is the future, or or or should I say challenging is the future. Like what's at stake at this point when you look to what's to come for for news. I think there are Perspectives where you could see it as pretty bleak.

30:47 However. Um At the same time, you know. Quality news has never been needed more, it's never been valued more. You could argue that that that it's being engaged with and you know consumed at extraordinary levels.

31:04 Um and trusted brands who can take a long term perspective and have a have the resilience that comes from a particular ownership structure, from from the the the power of a two hundred and six year or brand from genuine relationships with audiences around the world. I mean that's quite a potent combination and if You know, out of that. we can sort of um give people some hope and some help in how they navigate kind of a complicated world.

31:33 um, of which there are so many unknowns, then that's a reason to not be bleak and that's a reason to actually feel quite optimistic. So It might slightly depend the day that you asked me that question, but but I think I think the fact it matters more and that people genuinely understand that and value it and and that our model is a is a is speaks to that, but as does the success at the New York Times or, you know, many other kind of, you know, um uh admirable organizations. I think that speaks to their their there being reasons for hope.

32:05 Mm. Well, um Anna, I uh I applaud that uh that hope. And that feeling and um and thanks for doing this. It was a pleasure. As a journalist myself, I have a particular interest in how the news business operates. But you don't need to be a newshound to gather lessons from Anna's experience at The Guardian. She gives high praise to the unique ownership structure there, but even more important is what she calls the genuine relationship with audiences around the world.

32:37 Every business needs to understand who they're serving and how best to engage them. For all the technology brings to the modern marketplace, business ultimately requires an emotional connection. We lose sight of that. Ар. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.

32:58 Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina. Mixing and Mastering by Brian Pugh. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday.

33:24 Our head of podcasts is Le Tal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsshow.com.

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