The Gaslighting & Conversation Expert: This Is A Sign You’ll Divorce in 10 Years!

0:00 What are the five most important things for anyone who's striving to be a masterful communicator to get what they want out of life? The first is authenticity. And presence is the highest form of authenticity. Okay, on that point, I'm gonna play this video on the screen that went viral of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. Oh, I haven't seen that. That's painful to watch. Number two. Reduce the amount of distraction. Three Stop over Explain. Number four, know how to deal with their sadness. And I'll go through all of these in detail. But number five is you have to know how to handle the narcissist and the gaslighter.

0:36 What do I do? Let me show you. First, you need to. Yeah, for a lot of people that kinda blows their mind. Jefferson Fisher is back, and the board certified trial lawyer is using his expertise in conflict resolution and communication to teach couples, friends, employees, and everyone in between how to master difficult conversations. Here's the truth, you have to invest in your communication. If I don't say what needs to be said at work, I'll lose that promotion. Same thing in relationships. Most relationships don't fall apart because they fell out of love. They fell out of communication.

1:08 because of a hundred moments where repair could have happened and it didn't. Because you said, ah, this is so stupid. This is so small. Like there's a recent study showing that the biggest predictor of the child's well being within the parental relationship is not whether they were married or divorced. It was how they deal with conflict. But people are definitely afraid of the conflict that they're in because they don't know what to say. And so I want to help them feel controlled enough, feel confident in this. And it's knowing things like being right is overrated. If I respond first with frustration, I'm gonna lose every time. Or if you want to know how to handle the insults, the patronizing, the dismissive. First thing you have to do That's the mistake I've made multiple times.

1:47 Just give me thirty seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. And if you enjoy what we do here, please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guest that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

2:27 Thank you. Fist and Fisher. What do you do professionally? What is your how do you sort of characterize your profession?

2:38 Well I'm a trial attorney by trade. What does that mean? That means I hope Clients with legal needs. Board certified in personal injury. It's when people get hurt.

2:48 I have trials. So I that means there are other attorneys that Don't ever go to a courtroom. I go into a court. And you stand before a judge. A bailiff, yeah yeah, have a judge, have a jury, have a court reporter, a bailiff, have opposing attorneys. There are people in the room.

3:04 And you try and convince those people of your point of view. To get a particular outcome. I advocate my clients' facts in order to get the result that they want. So why did you think it was important to write a book about Conversation. Talking

3:17 Getting what you want from The conversations we have with people we care about. Because I have seen time and time again that When I am training a client is what I call I'm preparing them for cross examination for deposition they really don't know how to engage

3:34 in conflict. And so I can't think of any other profession. That is more entrenched. In conflict. Maybe outside of a A boxer or some you know UFC something that deals with actual conflict.

3:48 And sits there and listens to it all, then in the legal world and a trial attorney. And so yeah, it's my job to advocate based on my clients' facts to to get them the result that they want. And the reason why I wrote that book and how that book applies is I took a lot of the

4:02 Lessons that I teach. Every one of my clients. And put them in that book because I'm sitting there preparing them for cross examination and realizing Oh wait, they are deathly afraid of the conflict that they're in because most of the time

4:16 It's the most Emotional. Stressful. Overwhelmed. ever in their life. They've they're in a place they've never been, they don't know what it's like, they've only seen it on TV.

4:28 And so it's my job to kinda take their hand. And say this is how we're gonna This is how we're gonna do it. And how does that apply to the average person in their life? People think that

4:38 The goal of any argument Or any conversation. is to win. And same for a trial. They say you want to win a trial. I've seen it so many times where I've gotten the result that they want and I've

4:50 They realized they still have the problem. They still wanted the Apology. It all would have been resolved. There'd be no case if somebody just said I'm sorry.

4:58 Yeah, and so you find that For the everyday person. It's my job now and and passion to be able to help them. Get into conflict. And say I feel controlled in this.

5:12 I feel confident. in this now I know exactly where I'm going. In this because I've been there before, and it is not. A skill that comes naturally. It is a skill that is learned.

5:25 the sort of variance and outcome. How would my life change if I became an absolute master in this? You know, if if I started from zero. In this regard. And then I became a master in dealing with conflict and dealing with difficult people and dealing with people that gaslight me and dealing with narcissists and all these kinds of things. Why would my life be different? And and in what domains?

5:47 Quite a lot. Yeah. First would be you would be equipped Sure. Outside of Necessary expertise.

5:55 Anywhere you wanted to be in life. People feel like communication Is zero cost. It costs you something. If I'm not speaking up in that relationship.

6:05 It costs my own. sense of worth. If I don't say what needs to be said at work. I might have Lost that. Promotion. I I everything

6:14 The bill always comes due. If you can think of Every time you didn't say the thing. As like a receipt. at a restaurant. Every time it's It's a bill of what I am not putting into my life because I chose

6:27 To either say something or not say something. At the right time. And when you realise that If I can speak with confidence. Or that's me gaining a little bit more. If if I can say things with control, that's me gaining just a little bit more.

6:41 A second benefit of it is that You realize Being right is overrated. You can if you tell me The sky's purple.

6:51 Knock yourself out, Steven. They don't have to touch anything with me on on who I am or any of my opinions. We're we're opinion making machines. I feel that's all on social media. It's to be set up to give your opinion on things that most of the time will rarely ever touch you.

7:07 And if you can have the peace of mind of knowing I don't need to agree with you to understand you. If you have an opinion. I don't have to give one back. If you say something.

7:21 I can choose not to say anything at all. And for a lot of people that kinda blows their mind of you mean I don't have to respond? No, you don't. have to say anything. If somebody's talking really fast, you can talk really slow. They forget that

7:35 You have full autonomy. And it and when you realize that it's you who's taking the wheel You take the wheel of your life. But what about justice? Jefferson. Yeah.

7:46 Do you know justice like This person has wronged me, they've said something wrong, they've I don't know, they tweeted at me something which is incorrect. I need to correct the record justice. I think we all have a sort of in a in in a

7:58 sense of Justice. We want things to be fair and right. Yes. Justice is an inherent value. That is high priority for

8:08 A lot of people for good reason. You might say, Well they've they've wronged me. This isn't right. That's all well and good. The question is going to be, how long do you want to carry it? How long do you want to carry that feeling? Because I can either choose to let it go. I can choose to say the thing.

8:24 It's it's not at all my position that you should be stepping on. eggshells and not say the thing and and be a wallflower. No, it's the opposite. I'm saying you you say what you need to say. in a way that is controlled, in a way that is signaling I don't I'm saying this because it needs to be said. But not because I have to say it.

8:44 There's a lot of people who feel like well, something needs to be said. But I might Maybe you're not the one to say it. Maybe you you're the one that needs to I mean needs doesn't need to be said right now because if they're not willing to listen, well then

8:58 What good does it ever do? What I like to say is Yeah. for you to learn how to stand up for yourself, you first have to learn who's worth getting out of your chair for. I'm not gonna be

9:10 making big moves For something that is Not at all worth my My time. So yeah, justice is absolutely worth it, but when you go I'm the one that has to be carrying this.

9:23 Lotta times people do things to you. And it's nothing to them. But yet it's everything to you and now you just You're walking around for twenty years with the comment that you could have said something wait

9:36 You chose to to carry it and now you're the only one that has the the weight of that. If I'm dealing with someone who's in a position of power Someone who's a I don't know, senior to me at my company or Even someone who in my social group is a bit more higher up in the sort of social pecking order, and they're continually putting me down or being difficult, or even a partner that I'm romantically involved in.

9:55 What are the hallmarks of someone who has control over their communication and what are the hallmarks of someone that doesn't? Like what is it that makes'cause when you speak it's very feels very composed and controlled. What are you intentionally doing to achieve that effect? I'm wanting you to match my rhythm. I'm warning you to come to my frequency.

10:15 People get it wrong when they go big time to an eleven, big emotional reaction. If I have a big emotional outburst, am I signaling that I'm somebody who's trustworthy, reliable, and confident? Or am I signaling that I am Out of my depth. I don't know what I want.

10:31 And I am Not to be believed. Right, because it's when you have an emotional outburst, everybody thinks this is you're just being Emotional. And they don't

10:41 all of a sudden y you're not credited. for the truth of what you're saying. So sometimes emotions can get in the way. of what needs to be said because of how you're delivering it. So when I say I'm gonna talk to you in a way that's gonna sound more controlled.

10:56 It's I'm slowing down my words. I'm lowering my volume. Why? Because I want to pull you down Here. And if I can pull you down here.

11:06 But a lot harder things. Rather than feeling like I have to to rush so if you want to talk to somebody in your relationship or somebody that's kinda higher up on the pecking border. so to speak. When you can show them that Change doesn't bother you.

11:21 When you can show them that You don't have to rush. Through this situation. People feel That

11:29 You are giving them a sense of comfort. In other words, in conversation. Everybody is looking for an anchor. When you go to a meeting, we listen to the person who's the anchor. they're usually the person who says a lot less. The person who's observing and listening, rather than always giving their opinion about what you should be doing.

11:48 Those are the people you don't listen to. As soon as you is if you've ever heard somebody say, You know what I think you should do? Does that ever make you wanna do what they said. No. It's because they they've made it their idea. Now they're telling you what to do. If I were to say to you, you can't do that.

12:04 What's the first thing you think of? Yes, I can. Yeah, it's it's the same kind of concept where it's me lowering To be the anchor in the conversation.

12:14 And when you're in a Case. In front of a judge. Is is there anything else that you're intentionally thinking about with I don't know, your body language or the eye contact or any of these other things that you've learned over time are really important to get your message heard.

12:27 I'm speaking like I've been there before. Explain that to me. Walk into a room like you've been there before. As if everybody else is just visiting. So what I do

12:36 Before every trial. Is I will go in there. Before the jury comes in. The judge comes in, everybody comes in. And I say to myself

12:45 This is my living room and everybody else is just visiting. And so I will touch The chairs. I will put my hands on the banisters. I will walk around. I will feel That space.

12:58 And and feel it in a way of saying I Have been here before. And when I can exude that kind of confidence to every juror that watches all of a sudden it calms them down. They go, U Who can I rely on here? Who's more trustworthy? Who's more credible?

13:15 Because that's what it is. When you're when you're Persuading when you are advocating your case it's who Ultimately it comes down to who is more. Yeah. And so when I can

13:26 not get emotionally flustered. Like I've seen it so many times where A judge rules against me. And I act as though that's exactly what I wanted. And I I am I'm acting as though

13:40 Thank you, Judge. And the ju the jury's never gonna know really any Different. But I've seen on other attorneys. Or the judge rules against them and they go.

13:49 Or they roll their eyes, or they act frustrated, and what does the juror think? Oh, they must not have wanted me to hear this information. This must have been bad for their case. So if you are always reacting to situations in which you have to be Emotional.

14:05 With in a sense that You're not paying attention to who's Watching you? Okay, on that point. So when you say rules against you, you mean

14:13 During the trial. There's something you request. Exactly. The judge might say no and you say thank you, judge. Yeah. You're not defeated. You act as though that's exactly what you expected. Right it's it's the whole idea of

14:25 That's not gonna shake. Shake me. So a lot of the times you'll see in real court, not TV. Uh the judge will say, Counsel, can you approach? And both attorneys come up and they

14:36 play some kind of s noise cancellation to where only the the attorneys can hear the judge. And the judge is making a decision at that time that we don't want to hear to let the jury know why? Because it's information that might Sway the case. in some way and not be as objective. And You have to pay attention to who's how the attorneys are walking away after that meeting's done if somebody looks defeated.

14:57 It just signals. Oh, this is information that They must not want. Or they're objecting. I've seen so many cases where

15:05 There's one attorney who objects to everything. It's my rule if I really want to have one objection. The whole trial. Because to the jury. An objection is me keeping evidence out. So if you always object, always object, always object, you're just signaling there's information I don't want you to hear. But if I have the confidence of knowing

15:24 There's really one objection I know that's gonna be material to my case. Way they know I've been there before. This is not something that's gonna be Making or breaking My case. Credibility. If they don't trust me.

15:39 They're not gonna trust my client or my client's case. I think also it illuminates to me how much of communication is nonverbal because in that example you're just talking about how they're watching your body language and how you've received something. Right. And uh You know, if you were defensive you know, with all those objections, or if you were defeated in the

15:57 Judges ruling. Mm-hmm. That would work against you even though it's really nothing was said, like nothing significant was said. Yeah, it's it's a balance of knowing

16:08 Am I going to Choose to react. Because of personal ego if I didn't get my way. Or am I having the better mindset of I'm advocating on behalf of my client.

16:22 Let's say you're a witness. And you're opposed to me and I'm asking you a question. And I think you said something That's contrary contrary to the evidence that I have right here. Rather than me getting messed up saying are you are you sure about that, Mr Barlow? Let me go you know, I have this piece of paper here and I get really worked up. Versus

16:39 Me putting you said something and I put my hand on the The paper I said. You sure? Like all of a sudden it's a moment of it kinda piques their interest of like what's happening. Oh, this attorney

16:51 knows this attorney is somebody who's confident And has this what I call in the pocket. Presence. I'm not trying to be too forward. I'm not trying to be too pick. I'm just in the pocket like a a jazz band. Like e everybody is on

17:05 Everybody's on And so I'm not I'm not rushing. I'm not slowing down. I'm just right in the pocket. In the pocket. Aura.

17:14 Swagger, maybe some people call it. Yeah, Aura. In any context, I like to say in the park because it just reminds me Of The right timing is my timing. And that is I'm I'm gonna match

17:29 How I need to be Of what's most authentic. What's most genuine to me. If you were to ask me to read something really fast, it wouldn't sound that great because that's not that's not my personality. And so if I know that I am acting and speaking in accordance with the values that I hold.

17:45 And I'm saying everybody here is just It's just visiting. This is I've been here before. Let me y'all don't know where to go? Let me show you. And I I have that kind of mentality.

17:55 Mm. People will listen to you forever. They'll they'll find that attractive saying, How does this person know where they're going? I can I can follow them. It's just it's natural leadership to speak in a way that says I know where I've I'm going, I've been here before.

18:10 Think that's probably good advice for people who um have important meetings or are going on dates. Yeah. To maybe get there ahead of time and familiarize yourself with the location. Yes. you know, you don't have the added anxiety of like stumbling through the physical environment like looking for the thing or f trying to find the toilet or exactly I don't know, trying to figure out how to make the Power presentation airdrop onto the screen and all those kinds of things, which we've all seen before. Yeah. I always any time I go to speak Um I I spoke this past week.

18:39 Uh in Santa Barbara. I went ahead of time. before my speaking time to to go I wanna see what the room looks like. I wanna see m how how can I touch and say hi to the people that are working A V? How can I meet them? How can I If you really want to be better as a professional speaker, talk to people in the crow before you speak.

18:57 Mm. Get to know people's names. It's gonna naturally Lower you. You get to know their names. Ask them why they're here. Say, I'm so thankful that you're here. I'm really looking forward to the message and getting to talk to you today. When you when you can go in and touch people

19:11 It's a different sense than if I'm going into a room totally cold because you don't really have the vibe. You don't really know how that is. So yeah, going into a restaurant ahead of time That's great. Not bringing your phone even better. You know, getting able to Be a sense of knowing Yeah.

19:27 I I've been here before. I want to welcome you to to my space. When we talk about um people that have aura. You must have met a lot of people in your career and your life generally that. you felt had a sense of aura.

19:38 Yes. What was it about them? That gave them that aura. What is it? It's a frequency.

19:46 Of Peace. For me. I think of people And you think of people in your life.

19:55 Who you felt most comfortable with. The person you feel like I I can just be myself. I can finally let everything down. For me it was my Grandparents' house.

20:06 As soon as I walk in. It's a different feeling. Of Time kinda stand still. They want to know about me.

20:14 They wanna know how my Doing. They it's it's that feeling. I could talk about people who seem like they have aura and they just have a a glow About them.

20:24 It's usually of They're not trying to prove anything to Anybody. They just naturally Exude that kind of charisma. Because of just the security of knowing

20:35 Who they are. And what they can do. And I guess what what's the opposite of that then? Sometimes it's easier to understand something by understanding the opposite. What would that look like? I would say that

20:48 Authentic people. Authentic aura. As you said. Doesn't come from people securing themselves to you.

20:58 That's for insecure people. The people who are authentic. No that I am good exactly where I'm at. Oh, you wanna rush? I'm I'm really no rush.

21:09 Um What happens today, happens today. Is it really due today, or could it be Done tomorrow if I I had to.

21:16 If it's a slower pace. I I find that There is so much kind of what they call cowboy wisdom. On these kind of things where And I'm from Texas in the south, so it's it's kind of this

21:30 Knowing that the right time will come. When that time is right. And not having to push that. So if you want to look at the opposite, it's the It's The opposite of aura.

21:39 Is Insecure. It's Name dropping. It's having to be friends immediately. It's having to

21:47 Prove to you how much money I have. It's everything else. Being everything to everybody else except myself. Mm-hmm. Like people who have a sense of style, their own sense of style.

22:00 Naturally have an hour. Why? Because they don't care what in the world. Anybody else's work. My daughter. Alright, she's six. We tried setting out clothes.

22:11 Forget it. She she can come down and A leper print tutu and her sunglasses and whatever she wants. And you know what? She thinks she's the flyest thing in the world. I mean that's It I never want to take that. out of her. The people who have a sense of

22:26 Fashion the sense of Who I am. And it they didn't have to look cool to anybody social standard, but it's Do they really care what anybody else thinks? Usually people with aura do not.

22:37 Mm. And sometimes when you come up against I mean, we were talking before we started recording about Since the this book's publication. What have been people saying to him? What have the chapters Um, what are the chapters that have stood out the most to people? And you mentioned that it tends to be things around dealing with

22:55 Difficult conversations. Dealing with difficult people. Right. And one of the phrases that's been Arguably overused a lot in society is this phrase Gaslighting. Yeah.

23:05 And the definition of gaslighting that I managed to pull was gaslighting is psychological manipulation where one person purposefully lies or manipulates the other to make them doubt their own reality, memory, or sanity. Do people talk to you about gaslighting a lot? Yes. Now that you've written this book. Yes. And what do you think gaslighting is it's one of those things that's been used so often that we almost have to like pause for a second just to define it again? Yes.

23:28 Let me put it this way. The difference between Gaslighting and lying. Ly is a surface level of Mm. I could tell you instead of having a silver cup, this is a red cup. Well that would be

23:43 A lie. gaslighting is I'm trying to Alter your reality. Into mine. I'm I'm trying to make you question

23:53 How other people perceive you, including myself, how you perceive yourself. If Anybody's ever questioned, Am I crazy? Am I the crazy one? Uh is it is it me? Is it is everybody

24:04 Most likely you Probably being Gaslight. And here's the truth. I've been the gaslighter.

24:12 Everybody has been the gaslighter. whether they intentionally know it or not, because it's all that feeling of preservation of defensiveness of I don't want people to know the truth of of what's happening in my life. So I'm going to mislead. And gaslighting the intent.

24:30 Is to alter your reality to make you question what is real and what is Nah. So I might do something wrong and then I might come home.

24:40 and know that I've done something wrong and intentionally try and sell my partner a version of reality. It makes them fundamentally question what they know. To try and spam me. The critique or to Control them.

24:53 Yes. It's it's it's self. Preservation. Say let's say you and your partner had come home from a a dinner. Right, and you're just in a very critical mood.

25:05 To distract from something else that's going on in your life. And you're being critical of a story that she shared. at dinner and you're like why did you why would you ever say that? And she goes ev everything was fine. You're like, Fine. No, it was not did you not see how they Reacted? No no no no listen.

25:22 I know. You don't want to hear this, but everybody feels that You know, you're a little bit Much.

25:29 Yeah, and I and I'm I'm the one that needs to tell you this. You see how you're all of a sudden it's starting to alter How she feels. In that moment. And I've seen the the other side of that. And it is it is not at all

25:42 Something that You can come back from without serious relationship work to be able to Find a way to say okay what's

25:51 How are we really walking in truth?'Cause you get so far away from radical honesty in conversation. So gaslighting is Is is not something to be taken lightly, but I will say people often apply to the wrong thing. They'll use it as a s sense of saying

26:06 You're saying something I don't like, so you're gaslighting me. You know, we're in an argument and you're pointing out something that hurt your feelings, oh that's gaslighting. You know, and the and they they they use it as an excuse. It's almost a form of gaslighting. Exactly. That's exactly right. And it in a weird way, it can reverse that way. But imagine me saying something hurtful to you and you go, That really hurt my feelings. I go, Oh, that's just my boundary. I just have a boundary about everything. Or this is you're just gaslighting me. You know, I've never met somebody who talked about their ex. Without saying my narcissistic ex.

26:36 You know, I finally just got out of a narcissistic relationship. It's never us. Right, it's always the other It's always the other person. And so there's these words. that we can kind of pepper. Insult in the sentences.

26:48 that are also still another form, if we look at it, a form of self preservation. Look at all their bad and don't look at mine. Why is it important that we don't gaslight others? And I I asked this question because Everybody listening now is probably gonna want the the answer to the question, which is what what do I do about a gaslighter? Yeah.

27:06 avoiding the responsibility that we all all have a Like a t tendency or at some point in our life have gaslighted somebody else. And You know.

27:15 I don't think my audience is Just Ga the the gaslighted. Statistically, clearly you're you're also all the gaslighters. Right. So how do um Why is it important that we don't gaslight other people? And is there a way for us to avoid You know, getting into a situation where our back's against the wall and we end up gaslighting someone.

27:35 It's important not to gaslight somebody. Because Every time you do. You're a moving Your so further and further from the truth.

27:45 The truth of how you feel. You are withholding Reality. from that other person rather than

27:53 having radical radical honesty about what's What's happening. So it it degrades the relationship. It degrades another person's self worth. And in many ways Gaslighting Steals. Their reality.

28:07 It's not something you can give back without a lot of work. It it's it's Taking in some sense. Now it can be absolutely Intentional and it can also be Unintentional as a form of self

28:21 Preservation. And if you feel like you are being Gas lit. The secret to knowing Is

28:28 Slowing down the conversation. If I am Staying still. in the conversation. Meaning you could say something to me. That's a form of gaslighting, making me question, did I oh my goodness, did I really say that did I really hurt their feelings? No I did I

28:45 And get into my head. And I start kinda jumping around and trying to change what I did. But if I were to say Stephen, I remember that differently. And that's where I stop. Then you can try other things and I'm gonna repeat

29:02 Yeah, I remember that differently. Uh y it's standing in the truth of what you know rather than being concerned. And misled. by giving someone the reins and the leash to drag you around. And if I am

29:17 If I think about I think it's thinking about all the times where I've I think I might have gas gaslit someone. Yeah, in relationships, backs against the wall. Um And you're having an argument with someone or It it's quite difficult in my head to know the difference between the word like just tell saying something that isn't necessarily true, or is that is your perception of things versus like gaslighting.

29:38 Is the is the difference in your mind intention? Like is if I s if I give my version of reality. Yeah. We were at that party. You said this thing, I saw the person roll their eyes and then they walked away. I think they're really offended. I think you offended them. Right. What's the difference between that and me Gaslighting someone.

29:56 Of between lie and gaslighting or it's Yeah, like I'm trying to understand in in that context you gave about going to a party, someone said something and then they woke up. What's the difference between If that's w how you saw reality. And you're communicating it versus gaslighting someone. It It's the intention.

30:12 I'm the one. In control. Not you. Okay. So you are trying to control the narrative.

30:19 you are trying to be both director, producer, and actor. For your own agenda. That's right. For your own film. And for control. I'm I'm the character in my own movie. Hi, I'm the main character. And You need to behave this way, you need to believe this, you need to act upon that.

30:37 And so the more I can try to manipulate that reality. The and what's So wild as It becomes so manipulated that you believe it too.

30:49 Now now that that falsehood has now become your fact. In some sense the the really good liars. Convince themselves. That that lie is Is the truth.

31:00 Is there a certain type of person that's more susceptible to being gaslit? Or to being victimized in any way with conversation, in your view? Anxious attachment. The ones that are They

31:12 People who can't regulate by themselves, they have to co regulate. Meaning Most of the time. Men are were good. Self regulators. Just give me some time.

31:24 By myself. Give me an evening. Give me an hour. Let me walk outside out and I'll regulate myself. Mm most of the time it's been my experience, women are not like that.

31:37 They co regulate. Most of them. They they need you. They can't be good If you're not good.

31:44 We're not good. I'm not good if if you're not okay. So it's it's that whole I'm not okay if you're not okay. And so In many ways they need you. To be able to

31:56 Calm down themselves. And they they don't self regulate. As well. And so The people who are mo most susceptible to gaslighting are ones who need co regulation. People who are anxious anxious attachment.

32:11 Meaning they they need Uh are you okay? Are you good? Do you need anything? Are are you sure you're not okay? And versus the people who are more Avoidant.

32:21 And three, the the people who are s are typically more insecure. So do you think women get gaslit more than men? Yes. But women still gaslight women, right? Of course. But just men and more than when you're talking relationships.

32:35 When you're talking relationships, that's my personal opinion, is because From my feedback. From the people that have Read my book and the people who give me feedback on my book. Yeah, it's majority, vast majority are

32:48 Are women. Some empirical study. on it. But uh what I will say is Women are just as capable. Of gaslighting?

33:00 And gas women can certainly guest like women and it you it's I I'm saying this with the mindset of Everybody gaslights, whether they know it or not, and they have in the past, and most likely they can think of a time in the past where they did. Without knowing it?

33:16 But it is that would be my opinion. That most of the time Men are the ones that do it to women. Reading some research here that says multiple studies on emotional abuse in heterosexual relationships show women report high rates of gaslighting and coercive control. than men.

33:31 Men do report gaslighting too, but less frequently and usually in different forms. Um As it relates to workplace data, surveys from management and organizational psychology show women are more likely to have their competence questioned, their memory doubted. All that experience dismissed. Women in male dominated fields report the highest rates of

33:51 gaslighting and women of colour report even high rates of being told their perception is wrong or misinterpret or that they're misinterpreting things. Sounds like that tracks. And also in medical settings. Women are less likely to be to be believed about their symptoms.

34:08 Women's pain is underestimated. Women get later diagnoses for multiple conditions like heart disease and autoimmune disorders, ADHD and autism. And the list goes on and on and on. If I had to say who does more. You know, I'm not trying to put some kind of like

34:24 Headline of Men Do It More Than Women. In my experience, it tends tends to be the guy. And you know, what is that? That Information show me.

34:34 It shows me that. Yeah. That sounds about right. I do think from the people that follow my content, listen to my content, because I Stay very connected to my community of

34:46 So many women say I feel like I'm in this workplace and they are doubting my competence. They're doubting my ability to make decisions. I'm not being believed. I'm putting I'm being put down I'm whether it's not even their experience, it's just because of their gender.

35:03 And those are real those are real questions. Does that mean that that's gaslighting? Probably not all the time, but For me to say Uh, that's That's a dumb complaint. Uh, you know, that's just complaining.

35:15 In many ways, when you start denying that reality, then you have the same problem. Do you know, I am I've I've hired thousands of people over the last decade. And I have To say.

35:26 Sometimes it's hot it's difficult to understand the plight of someone else when you haven't lived their experience, like you haven't been a woman or whatever. It's like very difficult. So you kind of just have to take them for their word sometimes if you've not lived it yourself. Right. Or you can look at data or whatever else. And I do have to say That I have experienced Male executives. Hw.

35:46 Wow. Extremely dismissive of their female peers. In a way that was a hundred percent. inconsistent as it relates to genders. What I mean by that is I can think of several male executives over the years who I observed

36:02 dismissing or diminishing or not giving the woman in the room the same credit really for no other reason than she was a woman? And so it's a very real thing. And it's not every man, I have to say this, but there is a certain particular type of person. who for some reason uh in my experience would see a woman in the in the workplace or in the high sort of upper echelons of the professional cr um uh environment as being less than them just because of her gender.

36:28 So when I hear you know What you're saying about women are predominantly com you know, coming to you talking about these issues of gaslighting, it does kinda track with what I've seen. I'll tell you this, I've never had a man it come to me in all this time. I've been from my book to my content.

36:42 This number of years ever say I think I'm being gas lit. It is it has always been The woman. Never.

36:49 Never. What about the conversation around like dealing with narcissists? Because this feels like it's m kinda one in the same. The words are used In the same sort of vernacular, but Yeah. Do you have men coming to you saying that I think my partner's a narcissist? Yes. You do. Yeah, that I do have.

37:04 Yeah, it's always a it's always they're married to one. Or just got out of a relationship with one. But it's never them. And what what do you say to someone who is dealing with a narcissist, who is dealing with someone who repeatedly gas gaslights them, w let's say it's in the context of work.

37:18 Yeah. What are they meant to do? Quit their job. Well, that is an option, so let's not rule that out. Okay. Um if it's if it's worth it to you.

37:27 'Cause that's that's a question of what's your what's your purpose here. And this is where you're gonna be forever? Then there's some Things we need to put in place. But what are you to do? You are to limit The interaction.

37:38 Like limit the exposure. Talk. Less. Neutral statements. So if you can

37:46 Many ways you can. Just limit the amount of physicality. Of I don't have to see you. I don't have to communicate with you?

37:54 I know you work Three doors down, but I don't have to be Your best friend and you certainly don't have to be mine. Two is understanding the game that you're in. It's a it's a game.

38:05 for narcissists of praise or provoke. Meaning if I am not Showering you with praise. Then the narcissist will turn to provoke.

38:15 in order to create an argument. For the same effect, they they delight in frustration just as may just as much as they delight in your praise. Because they get the same type of Control. I've seen so many

38:28 Expert witnesses in my field. That are that I what I would term are narcissists. They they they can never possibly be wrong. They they don't do Empathy.

38:39 And again, this is me With the understanding of Hey, we all have narcissistic tendencies. You know, we all have narcissistic traits. And narcissism is a diagnosable condition that you can have.

38:51 I think more people would qualify more than they think. But how do you handle it day to day? There's no knowing what kind of game you're in. It's a game you're just not gonna play. I I know I don't have to say anything to that person. To I'm gonna limit my

39:05 distance to them. And three, I'm gonna use neutral. statements. I'm gonna use neutral statements like that's good to know. Thanks for sharing. Noted.

39:14 I think that they can't grab onto and continue to have in a conversation. When you think of like the hallmarks of a r of a really, really One of these types of people. What uh

39:26 the way the characteristics that I could should be looking out for. If I'm dealing with one such person who is is gonna try and manipulate me. Go trying to Gaslight me.

39:35 What what do they do? They can never be happy for anybody but themselves. They can't be happy for you, they can't be happy for our other people. These are the type that If you were to say, Hey, did you see that Stephen just got this award? Isn't that so great? And they go, I mean, that's I guess that's fine. You know, I when I did this and they start talking about them.

39:57 Cells. They can never be happy for somebody else. They can't be happy for you. It's They have to find some way to turn the conversation of Why the world is so hard and so pitiful for them that the world was against them and they couldn't get it, but they were just as deserving. I mean, I guess that's fine. I mean, you know, I do this but nobody nobody listens. Nobody really cares.

40:17 They find that they have a very victim mentality. So two is a victim mentality. Everything happens Two Them in some way. They can't feel for other people. They don't do

40:29 emotion. It's it's always about the perception of What others would think. They're very, very Sensitive. Two

40:38 how others might portray them. So they're gonna give you a different view. than they give other people. And so The couple might be terrible. But

40:48 For a narcissist, they're gonna put on a face that the relationship is perfect. to everybody else. And everybody goes, Uh uh you you must be so blessed to be married to that person and you're going uh You kidding me? They're they're fooling everybody. And it's a very helpless position.

41:01 Have you ever had a narcissist try and prey on you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm in the legal field, man. Expert witnesses.

41:11 To them that are unquestionable. You can't. This is their opinion and nobody else could ever argue with it when I have another expert who says just So a lot of the times They are very condescending.

41:23 You know, that's fine. And they have their opinion and this is all there is, and how dumb of you to ever question me. And usually what gives it away. is if I feel like this is somebody that okay, they're they can't be reasonable. They're never gonna give an inch on what's reasonable. I will ask this. I'll say

41:43 This is typically in a deposition. I'll say and you think the jury's gonna like that? And y or you think other people are gonna agree with you? And all of a sudden they kind of change. in an instant to be able to match

41:56 So if I were to say and you think And you think that's okay, and you think others are gonna find that okay. And you think that the jury when they hear this they're they're all going to agree with this. Very hard line opinion.

42:09 I've seen it every time. Or they that's it's only when I reference other people. The presentation of themselves to other people. That they kind of Put on a a show. Why? Because they know that

42:23 The Perception. Of the crowd. Is everything. They need everybody to

42:30 like them to fawn. over them. They they want their idea to To be the best. And so they will manipulate the situation to be the chameleon, to to make sure that everybody Love them, at least in in their mind. It's not a it's not a reasonable

42:45 Thought. So they will typically change their opinion to sound more palatable. Even though they could have admitted to that. Yeah, two hours into the deposition. Do they tend to talk more or less than the average person in the room? Much more.

42:59 Mm. Is there a thin line between just being insecure and being a narcissist? Because I you know, one one of the things I was thinking about is you said earlier that they tend to bring everything back to themselves. I was thinking about all the people that I know that if we were having a conversation about your book doing really, really well The first response to that would be

43:17 the mention of their own book. Like they would immediately bring it straight back to something about them. And I was wondering some of those people I just have in the category of just being a little bit insecure. And that they just, you know, they're in a search for validation. So I'm wondering where where you think the line might be between sort of narcissistic behavior. And just like extremely insecure. Maybe there's not a line. Maybe extreme insecurity is narcissism. Both can be true. Yeah, I'd I'd say that

43:40 Not all. Insecure people are narcissists, but all narcissists are insecure. Hm. Um I would I would Say that if I had to give some kind of

43:50 Line. It would be The interest for growth. Insecure people are looking for ways to grow. and to secure and attach.

44:01 narcissists, they're not looking for anybody to attach on to. They're looking for people to Support them. You know, to please them.

44:11 And so it they have no Interest and growth. They to them they've learned all they've have learned. I I am the best. I I cannot improve any more. That to me would be the difference.

44:21 When you dealt with narcissists in your own life and in the courtroom What is the reason why they couldn't prey on you? What did you do? as defense to stop their games, their typical games working on you. I don't chase

44:36 Their words. Often one of the biggest things I see wrong In conversation. Is a narcissist will be Same for a gaslighter, they'll dig a hole.

44:47 All right. And then They expect you to fill it. meaning they're gonna say something to frustrate you. And you go, No, no, no, that's not what happened, don't you remember? And and you ch start chasing it.

44:58 And then they Just dig another hole. And then you keep. going, and you keep going and you're exhausted.'Cause all you've been doing is trying to plug holes. You're not having a real conversation.

45:08 And when I can Give it. A very clear definition and a very clear signal of Noted. Yeah, I'm just gonna stay right there.

45:18 I'm gonna see I'm gonna put down the shovel. And stay right there with them. And maybe I'll say something as neutral as Got it.

45:27 I don't have to chase it, I'll have to say Anything. And and to me the the People that have those narcissistic traits Once they realize that they can have no game with you that you're not going to play.

45:39 They find somebody else. They find somebody if you've ever had somebody come to you and they're the more emotionally toxic type of person, they always have some kind of problem. They come with you and they have this problem, you go, I I just I can't Right this moment I will. And ten minutes later what's happened?

45:55 They don't have that issue, they've already gone to talk to Somebody else. I was watching a Dame Dash on the Breakfast Club. I don't know if you've seen it. Dame Dash is on there'cause he he was, um he filed for bankruptcy and Charlemagne has sat there. And Charlemagne is

46:12 I've actually interviewed both of them, d both Dame and Charlemagne. And Charlemagne is Very relaxed. And Every once in a while just tells Dame Dash that he thinks he's broke.

46:22 And then Dame Dash is like very h like hot headed and like trying to prove prove all the reasons why he's not broken, like really like you know And I it was It was an interesting it's an interesting video to watch, I think. It's the more recent one that came out within the last year. Because it does show, in my view, how to deal with someone

46:41 Who has a very Has a significant ego. Yeah. Which is tr trymen just Never change your state.

46:50 Like no matter what the volume is. No matter how much emotion, no matter when he starts Ch Charl Charlemagne's demeanor, his tone His

47:01 Posture. Yeah. Doesn't change. Unbothered. Unbothered. And you can see it's super triggering. But you just can't get to this guy. Like it looks like Dame is like really annoyed that he and he tries to say more offensive things. He goes you're you're this, you're that, the other. And it's funny'cause I was watching it this morning. And it for me it kind of tracks with a lot of the stuff you're saying about like just not going with them. Yeah.

47:21 Just not following them, w'cause that they want you to go somewhere. And then there's a certain conflict they want to get in with you. Yeah. And if you just kind of refuse and just stay anchored to whatever your uh your point of view is, it's It's funny to watch. They want to push you. Yeah. My my dad.

47:36 I can remember growing up I'd be in the passenger seat, he's driving. And You ever had it where somebody you're in the pasture seat and somebody's just rearing the a bumper right on them? Mm-hmm and and I and I'd be looking in the side mirror and I'm like

47:50 I kinda start stressing out. For him. Really riding the bumper, you know, right behind. And I mean just Like clockwork.

47:58 What he would do. We have shoulders on our in uh on the roads there in Texas. And rather than trying to speed up or get mad. He would just kinda pull over to the shoulder. And he would say this every time. He'd say, Go on with your bad self.

48:10 Every time he goes, Go on with your bad self in the rear view mirror. Like that's how unbothered he was. By that. Of I feel like so many people get road rage. And so many people talk out loud to the cars.

48:21 While they're while they're driving. And he it just never got him worked up. And realizing My Value.

48:31 In my worth of knowing who I am is not at all determined. Bye. Where you feel I should go. It goes back to that idea of if you want to tell me the sky's purple, knock yourself out. Yeah, I

48:45 I don't have to be right. and you don't have the ability to to push me. I can move and you have your own I I know my lane. I know my speed. I don't have to match anybody else's. So when there's somebody is I'm bothered.

49:00 It's not because they don't care. It's not for lack of care. It's an understanding. It's discernment. Of knowing

49:10 I know who I am in this moment. And why in the world would I try to be anybody else? Wouldn't life be amazing if we could all be untriggerable? It'd be more peaceable, that's for sure. It's interesting because again, just reflecting on that interview I watched this morning.

49:25 When Dame Dash calls Charlemagne something really, really offensive. I noticed that as a viewer, I immediately look at Charlemagne. To see his reaction. To figure out if what Dame Dash just said was true. And you see what I'm saying? So he he turned him and said, You're a X. Right.

49:41 And then Charlemagne just kinda laughed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just it was like water off a duck's back. So immediately as the viewer I go, Well, that can't be true then, because Charlemagne doesn't seem to care. Exactly. Well, it's it's not the lack of I care. It's It's

49:57 Just the opposite. It's all the more care. Of knowing. Who he is. So if I were to tell you

50:06 Right now. I hate your purple shirt. It's the most ugliest purple shirt I've ever seen, Steven. Like your shirt is so Ugly.

50:15 And that purple. Does it affect you whatsoever? No,'cause I'm not wearing a purple shirt for anyone listening on Apple's money. That's a good point. Right. But you see how you you already know The characteristics of Of you. You already know what you're wearing.

50:30 And it's not just your clothes. Um I'm wearing my confidence. I'm wearing everything that your parents, your your loved ones have instilled and put on you, I'm I'm wearing the armor of my faith. I I am I have all these other things that I'm wearing.

50:46 And If you wanna say my shirt's purple, the That doesn't affect me at all because that's that's not who I am. And so so often people get mixed up of arguing about, no, I don't have a purple shirt on. Mm.

51:00 When why would you ever argue With that. It's that quote. By Abraham Lincoln. That I love.

51:09 If never argue with a fool. Because an onlooker. Can never know the difference. Right. And so it's it's knowing No, I I know exactly

51:19 Who I am and what I'm wearing. It and this sort of speaks to the fact that your reaction determines how onlookers will interpret. Everything that's happening. Like I you know, Oh, the worst thing you could do to somebody who insults you is laugh.

51:33 I mean what does it do? It I mean it it it infuriates them. Right, but when uh the same thing with a bully. A bully says something to you? That

51:42 They know is meant to hurt. You? And If I were to turn around and say, Did you say that the To embarrass me?

51:50 I mean, what are they gonna do? They they could say yes, they could say no. But either way, you're realizing I'm not gonna get Any reaction. For you to do this is just not gonna be fun for you. It's gonna be zero fun.

52:02 Whatsoever. for you. And so they'll find that with somebody somebody else. It's it's always your reaction. That's going to Determine

52:12 how the conversation goes forward. There's a lot of people listening right now that are a long way away from that. Very easily triggered. Yeah. Seeking justice. You know Whatever it might be.

52:22 For those people, is it like a muscle they have to build, or is there what is the journey to getting to this level of sort of mastery? It's a discipline. It is The same way that people invest in so many other things in our life. We invest in our health, we invest in self help books, we invest in the podcasts that we listen to.

52:42 It is the same. You have to invest in your communication. We don't get taught. In school. We don't you know, I I went to law school. People think y I learned this in law school. No. Law school teaches you how to read the law. It doesn't teach you how to read people.

52:56 Yeah you had uh To me, if you are somebody that is in a position of expertise and to share something, It either came at great personal cost or you're making it up. Like it it it is something that you have learned. Right. And so I mean, whether it's through

53:14 skill, knowledge, training, it's I've You wanna know how the I know these things'cause I've lived it. You know, I I have been on the bad side, I've been on the good side, and It's It is not it's never something that's just gonna

53:29 Come to you. We are emotional creatures and we're hormonal creatures. So how do how do you think about our emotions, our hormones, our health, our physical, cognitive state? As it relates to like walking into the courtroom and being ready.

53:42 Like how much of the c you know,'cause if I've had zero hours sleep and I'm I don't know, hungry and whatever else and I'm had an argument and I'm stressed about something, it's gonna be significantly harder to show up and be a great communicator and win the argument. Against somebody. Right. So do you think about these things? All the time. I mean i the emotions are

54:00 Or right there connected to the words. And what do you what how do you prepare? To be ready. For battle. It's an emotional awareness of

54:09 How I'm feeling. And also how the other person is. Because if I just respond Yeah, if I respond to their emotional reaction. I'll miss it every time.

54:20 Same thing in relationships. If I respond to the reaction. I'll lose that moment to actually speak to the need. So e even in the courtroom for me.

54:30 If I know that I'm a little sleepy. I know I'm a little hungry. I'm a little grumpy. You know what? I can either try and pretend that I'm not

54:40 Or I might get up front of the jury. And say, Good morning, everybody. I have to admit to you, I'm a little grumpy. I didn't need all that much this morning. Anybody else grumpy? And everybody starts to kinda nod. And now, hey, we all kind of relate, not to my words, but now to the feeling. And now You trust me. More I trust you more.

54:58 Because I'm being more authentic. And do you think People should do that in their own. Interpersonal relationships, which is just call out their state. Absolutely.

55:06 Because the perfection is not relatable, struggle is. Emotions are. If I were to come to you And say And you say, How are you? And I go, Good. Everything's good. When it is not.

55:18 Am I being authentic or am I being fake? But if I were to say, I've had a morning. And it's testing me in a way I was not expecting. And my mind is just not here.

55:30 Does that make you trust me more or trust me less? Every time. Mm. So when you can share your struggles with people, I'm not talking about your deep most inner desire struggles. I'm saying

55:41 Let me put it this way. Sierra and I check in with each other every morning. It's my wife. And It's only about ten minutes after she drops the kid off. Uh kids off.

55:53 And We can run through How we're doing. And the number one thing she asks me or tells me goes, You told me a lot about what you're doing. You haven't told me about how you're feeling.

56:04 And that's and that's the truth of The default. I think of a lot of men and a lot of people. I'm gonna tell you what's going on, what's on my agenda. What I'm doing. I haven't told you a lot about how I'm feeling.

56:15 And we store all that stuff up'cause it's still there. But if I can Share with you. What is my struggle? What's happening? Not just the good, but more importantly the

56:26 The bad I mean the uh It's always gonna bring that authenticity into the play. Women and men are very different in many ways. And uh We're very different in many ways. Men are I I don't know, it feels like men just

56:41 Yeah, and again I'm I'm stereotyping here, so it's not all men and people are different. But just speaking generally, the stereotype is that men are uh typically a bit more emotionally composed Or shall I say flat?

56:56 And women have uh more emotional fluctuations. One could look at hormone changes throughout the month and talk about why that might be, et cetera, et cetera. I've had many scientists here talk to me about hormone fluctuations and how that impacts how someone feels. But what this means in our romantic relationships is sometimes We meet each other on very different wavelengths. Yeah. So in my relationship.

57:18 My partner's probably seen me cry. Once. In Seven years. Maybe twice, but probably once.

57:26 I've probably seen her cry. Five hundred times? Maybe more. Yeah. So it feels it almost feels like I'm just gonna be completely honest,'cause I just think it's helpful, so you can fuck me up online if you're anybody. I j I sometimes feels like

57:42 We're we're a different species. Mm. Like the way that I interact with my guy friends and the way that the sort of wavelength that m my romantic partner, my my my girlfriend operates on. Very very different. So it's very easy to like misunderstand. And we spend a lot of time talking about how men need to be

57:59 More emotional and more I don't know, men need to change how the how they are. Yeah. Because it's the problem. But What about the ut like what about the other side of that? Which is

58:11 Ha Do Do women also need to think about Do we need to meet in the middle is what I'm saying.

58:23 There's certainly a space to meet in the middle. Like he's right in that. I don't know, is is is there a person that's right in this configuration? Am I meant to be way more emotional? And be Or or was she meant to be way more composed?'Cause I I think that's often how both sides feel. They feel like why aren't you coming to my wavelength on this issue?

58:40 But I think here's what you're missing. She would be much more composed if you would be more emotional. Mm. And so a lot of the times What I find in my own Marriage.

58:51 Is When I show emotion, the more composed she is. I mean if I start screaming and crying, I I think my girlfriend's gonna say screaming. Show emotion. What kind of emotion? Of being in it with her.

59:05 And what does that look like? That means you're gonna say things that Make her feel it. There's a difference if I just go static. That's what happens to me.

59:15 Yeah. uh truthfully is let's say we're in an argument about something or something came up. And So you're emotional. About it.

59:24 If I dismiss it. Okay, this is so dumb. Really? Right now? This is 'Cause arguments never come at the most opportune time. They come at the worst possible time. Yeah, that's hello. That's all relationships. If I dismiss it. Right. Does that

59:38 Make her come closer to me or further away from me. And if I'm pushing her further away from me, why would she not be more emotional? Why why would she why would she not be further away from me if I dismiss that. For every woman.

59:52 to be m more emotional as a man, tears are not necessary. Connection is being in it. is saying things that make her feel That you're you're genuinely feeling it. The difference I find with Men and what I struggle with.

1:00:06 Is I can say that I'm sad. I have a hard time expressing sad. I can say that I'm really regretful. I have a hard time.

1:00:16 Expressing. There. I think that is something that happens a lot. With most relationships. And I think that happens a lot with men of

1:00:25 We were emotional. And we got taught early that Mm-hmm. You you were not to cry. We s I I couldn't even tell you how many times I ever saw my dad cry. I think this is it. The modelling we had as well is

1:00:37 What my God was you the Angry? or completely static. And when I say angry, he was very, very rarely angry. Right. But it but when I saw him engage with my mum On an emotional level, it would be Him yelling back.

1:00:51 Right. If he wasn't yelling back, he was completely just like He was just very calm, static. Emotional. There was no in between. Yeah.

1:01:00 It it all comes down to Repair. How quickly? You get to. Repair.

1:01:06 That means can I validate The feeling. That she has. Validation. Is rep it's not weakness, it's repair.

1:01:16 In my world. Relationships don't fall apart because of one big failure. They fall apart because of A hundred Moments.

1:01:26 Where repair could have happened? And it didn't. We just chose not to. Or you could have said I'm sorry, but you withheld it. I could have chose to validate how you're feeling, but I said that's stupid.

1:01:37 And it's it's those, the hundreds of those little bitty moments. Or all of a sudden No wonder you're Your world's apart. Because you chose in those little many moments not to do

1:01:48 repair because you said, Ah, this is so stupid. This is so small. Yeah, it is small. All the more reason why you should repair pretty quickly. And so when you can validate those concerns.

1:01:58 Even when you say she's being emotional, you're not. When you go into that static mode, when I go into that static mode It's a choice by me. To do something different. Not say the thing I always say, not be dismissive.

1:02:12 Not Find ways. to try and convince her that she shouldn't feel this way. But if I Validate. If I say things like

1:02:21 I can see how you feel that way. If that's how you interpreted it? You know what, I don't blame you for shelling that way. I I can see that. That sounds scary. That sounds frustrating.

1:02:32 If I can Choose That's It's it's this like this isn't the key for me. And trust me.

1:02:39 I'm talking to myself here. Yeah. Right. Because every uh every guy I feel like can be like okay, this is right in If I can't. Make the hard choice in that moment to put aside my frustration. Just for a moment. Put aside my personal frustration. and validate the feeling.

1:02:57 And say Words. That Speak to her need. The need to feel.

1:03:02 Food. The need to feel safe. The need to feel like she's not being too much. Then all of a sudden It all shrinks. And you know what my frustration?

1:03:12 Kinda goes away. Why? Because everything's better now. We've we've had moments of repair. And then if I still am really frustrated. Then I can bring it up. Hey, can I can I bring up some of the use that you said that's

1:03:24 Really bothering me. And then you do it. How As a man, do you know that you're not setting a bad precedent for the future? And what I mean here is

1:03:35 Yeah. If I constantly you know justify how she's feeling and I and I seek repair and then when she's happy I just let it go. There's I think sometimes there's a worry.

1:03:46 As a man that If you just lay down and take everything. Then you're just gonna get more stuff in the future, like you're setting a bad precedent for the future of this relationship where they sometimes actually no, I wasn't in the wrong, or I know I did I dis I do disagree with this. Right. And I think I've observed a lot of relationships, especially with some of my guy friends, where

1:04:04 Because they like never stood up for themselves. They're not like living in a prison. Right. They like never Yes. And so they're they've kind of lost all of their autonomy and agency and control and they You know, even when you're listening to this, there's probably people you can think of in your life where The guy has always opted for an easy life in the short term, and now over the long term he has a really hard one.

1:04:26 Yes. And again, men and women. Of course. So th th this is the balance I'm trying to understand in your view is You know, when do you pick the fight? And when do you say no that's not versus just laying down and taking it.

1:04:39 This is quite per this is quite personal to me as well, because I think my dad did that a bit too much. I think my dad He never He never chose the fight. And then I look I look at how that played out over twenty years and I'm like, damn.

1:04:51 It's completely changed me'cause it means that I will now. Go through the conflict. Mm-hmm. And stand up for myself when I hit a place where I'm like

1:05:01 I'm not gonna be able to honor that for you for the next thirty years. I will stand my ground. Do you know if there's like an area where Um we might my my say my girlfriend's unhappy about a certain thing I do. Yeah. If I don't think that I'm I'm going to be able to promise to not do that for the next like Ten, twenty, thirty years.

1:05:17 If I if I'm unwilling to change, I have to stand my ground. Because if I concede today, it's hell tomorrow. Yeah, what what I'm hearing. But I'm hearing. Is Fear of autonomy.

1:05:31 Fear of my Right. Dominance. Yeah, like my freedom being. Yeah. Yeah. Well it's it's you wanna hear the probably the number one word you'll Here. With relationships that are on the brink, it's caged.

1:05:47 And then feels caged. Yeah, the man feels caged. And really all that is it's a lack of confidence. Of knowing If

1:05:59 I I'm willing to do something. different. then I can't have anything else. So it's it's It's thinking

1:06:09 In terms of Mm zero sum. See, both can be true. I can You can still validate.

1:06:17 How she's feeling. And not at all touch. What you still know to be true. So you can still disagree with her. But W every time we go into a conversation.

1:06:27 We walk in with A need. I need to feel loved, understood. It is always depth. Like you think of um Like a kid. Right, my son, my daughter.

1:06:39 If when she was small. And She screamed, or she cried, or told me no. Still tells me no, you know, of all these things. And I just said, No, are you kidding me? You're gonna tell me and I are you're crying right now, really? And I get all upset when she screams. But with kids we don't do that. We go

1:06:57 She's hungry. She's tired. She's scared. Mm. And we just forget. that we're all just big kids.

1:07:04 And we all have those like hidden needs underneath us. And so You still. Can stand your ground. And say

1:07:13 So let's run it. So let's say for example. Yeah. From my ex girlfriend. I was on my phone in bed and I was sending a message because there's something going on with my in my business back in the UK and I was in I was in Asia at the time. Yeah. And She said to me that she wanted to make a rule where there was never any phones in bed.

1:07:30 Okay. I could never touch my phone in the bedroom. Right. And as I thought this through, I thought God I thought but all the scenarios where I might need to touch my phone in the bedroom. And

1:07:39 What would I I realised that what would end up happening is I just wouldn't come into the bedroom. I'd like go and do it in the in the sh toilet or the shower, or I'd just like I wouldn't come to bed if I needed to do something on my phone. Right. And so The conversation went where I was like I I realised in this moment that I had to kinda like not lay down on this issue because I would disappoint her in the future. I was setting myself up to fail in the future. If I if I accepted this and made her some kind of promise that, you know, agreed that we I wasn't gonna switch my phone at

1:08:07 Ever again in the bedroom. And so that was one such example where I'm like, I think I actually need to s stand my ground a bit here, or I'm setting myself up for a future expectation I can't meet. So in that moment, what did you think her need was. I need was connection.

1:08:22 And she was interpreting me being on the phone in that space as a disconnection in some way. And Could it possibly be perceived as that? Ten percent. But it wasn't the phone. It was the it was the

1:08:35 It was me not it was her f not feeling connected, I in my view. Yeah. At that moment in time, in that particular week. Because I was so busy in that particular week that I think she was trying to find Uh

1:08:48 a symptom or a tool or a guarantee or a promise to express The feeling of disconnection. So that's why I look back on it and go, It was actually something else. That was just a symptom of a feeling she had at that moment in time, probably. Right. But that was an example where like I I if I'd conceded It would have

1:09:03 It would not have been sustainable. There would have been more arguments in the future. I'm not saying you concede. I'm saying There are times that if you want The key to the relationship.

1:09:13 It is Putting her comfort over your inconvenience. So what should I have done in that situation? Give me some advice. Do you think? Well you've already kinda named it.

1:09:24 It's not you saying W the wrong thing to say is, Well you were just on your phone. I mean you just I mean you're on your phone all your time. You're on the phone all the time. What are you talking about? And you start 'Cause now Your You're responding to the reaction. You're not addressing the need. If you were to slow down

1:09:42 And say. Look, I I still want to be connected with you. Is there a Any kind of I can still take care of what I need to take care of and also

1:09:53 be connected to you or If there's a situation where you say, Well, what about this? Before I just get my phone and grab it. I'm gonna tell you what I'm doing. Ahead of time.

1:10:04 I'm gonna ask. Maybe that's where it is you don't want to ask. Hey, I Greg is supposed to email me some slides or w a deck or whatever. Can I

1:10:16 Check that out real quick. You hear how she's probably gonna say yes. But the fact that you are saying Hey, I'm acknowledging our connection. Right now. And so it might make you uncomfortable saying, No, I don't I don't like anybody telling me what to do. I don't have to I don't want to report to anybody. Okay.

1:10:31 That's That's fine. Well then. You just know. that connection is always gonna be weak. And so you've you're signing your name To that.

1:10:38 I don't think I mean there's I have lots of thoughts on phones in Houses. Uh and where they should go. But If you were to have

1:10:47 Instead of arguing the What are you talking about? You're on your phone all all the time. And instead So I can see how much it's a little bit more.

1:10:56 that would make you feel like I'm not paying attention. to you. And you saying Like I don't wanna me being on this, this is all not at all me trying to signal that I'm not trying to

1:11:08 Be here with you. I'm trying to escape. On you and have that conversation. And that's what you could say. It is important to me that I have these things and for me to be able to connect with you and kind of rest my brain.

1:11:19 I need to take care of these things. What's the best way that I can Do that. I think then that's when you actually are able to have a conversation of like let's make a game game plan that makes sense because If you you

1:11:32 Put your inconvenience over her comfort. She will always discredit that to you. Your bank account will always continue to to go Low. And if but if you say, look, I I'm willing to do a little bit of inconvenient things to make you feel better.

1:11:49 Make you more comfortable? I mean that that only grows your account. I mean that that When when you have a relationship that can

1:11:58 Last. A whole lot longer. I think I'm slightly traumatized because um I I think the model that I had of relationships meant that

1:12:07 Someone can increasingly sort of encroach on your freedom. Yes. Until you are Virtually powerless. And I've felt that. I've certainly felt that. Yeah. So I've I try and

1:12:19 fight back and sometimes I think I overdo it. And this is what this is one such example where actually objectively when I hear myself say She asked me not to Like being on my phone in bed. I'm like, well, that's kind of a reasonable request to be honest. Like the bedroom can be a place where we just like go on the phone. I could just do it at my office and then come to bed when I'm ready. Right. But

1:12:37 I think my I get my back up because I've just got so many examples of men who like didn't stand up for themselves. Yes. And then were rendered powerless down the line. So it's like if I give you this And tomorrow you're gonna say, Maybe you can't be on my phone in the kitchen. Yeah. And then maybe I can't be on my phone in the bathroom and then so I just thought well if I just stand up for myself here, then I just hold hold off the What I'm not all saying is that the guy go, Yeah, sure, that's fine. And then she asked for something like Yeah, sure, that's fine. And you just you're super passive. with everything. That's where I think you do feel like you're just You look around you

1:13:07 You've given up. Everything to where you don't feel like I I have anything to to grab on to. I want to throw in another example that a lot of people relate to. A lot of men have like a hobby with their with their guy friends. Right. Like watching the football Talking shit in the group chart. Mm. I think it's so important to defend those things. Absolutely. Even for her attraction to you. Mm-hmm.

1:13:26 Like I think I I have no evidence to say that this is true, it's just a feeling. I think to some degree that my partner likes the fact that I'll stand up for myself in certain in certain areas and that'll say no no no this is me time, this is for me. I agree. And I can imagine the opposite, the passivity. Or kind of rolling over As being a really like unattractive thing.

1:13:44 Absolutely. Or laying yourself down and just rolling over, that is that can be very unattractive. They it's you need to have a backbone. At the same time you can't be so extreme that your way's the Only way. But when you choose to say no no this is

1:13:59 I'm gonna willing to take a stand here. Then I think to me it sends a signal of strength. Right. Strength of mind, strength of will.

1:14:06 But for me, when you have those things that are your hobbies. Uh the things that you really like. A sign of a good relationship is that she's gonna be happy. You get to do those'cause they make you happy. Even though she might

1:14:19 hate it and think it's annoying and it's weird and you know, you're taking up that space in the garage and whatever. But If it makes you happy. And they know that this is your space and this is your time because I I

1:14:32 You have to have those things that fill you up. Right. And The truth is Mm the marriage isn't enough, the kids aren't enough, your job's not enough, you have to have things.

1:14:42 that personally for you, by yourself, if your thing is to go to a pond and go feed ducks, go do it. You know, to to be able to Fill yourself up. If you if Like I I I know for parents, early parents, there's this this mindset of I have to be with my kid all the time.

1:15:00 I I can't ever leave my kid. Th I need to just be there. But What you find is y you'll be so much better. when you actually go take care of yourself and go on that guy's trip. uh go play that round of golf or whatever it is that's actually going to

1:15:15 Feed you up and Then I can be there for you all the more. I think some people's partners They d they're not like that. Some people are in a relationship where their partner Cuts.

1:15:26 Out. as much of these things as they possibly can. Yeah. So that they can control their partner. I mean we I think we've all friended it. In the group chat. Oh yeah. Who has kinda like all seems to have lost all their freedom and their autonomy and agency since they've been in that relationship. They'd say they're on a leash. Yeah, they're on a leash. Like they can never come to the thing.

1:15:45 That's not okay. And it appears to be A consequence of boundaries. Like not

1:15:53 reinforcing Your boundaries. Early. It appears to me to be a bit of a slippery slope boundaries. Oh yeah.

1:16:01 Do you know what I mean? Like where you like you kinda make a concession and because you've made a concession, they're more likely to pursue another concession. Right. And then before you know it You're behind bars. Alone. Yeah, and and frustrated and wondering how you How you got here? I know we've spoken about

1:16:18 boundaries in the past. To me, It it ultimately guns. comes down to Am I protecting the priority? So

1:16:27 If I know that my marriage is the priority. I'm gonna set boundaries that protect that. I mean for me in my life right now, whether I'm working on a a book or speaking or a podcast or whatever It's Am I setting the boundary up to be protecting my

1:16:42 My family. In my relationship. So you have to first define what is the priority. Here, so if the priority is knowing That

1:16:54 We Want to be You and your partner wanna be in a relationship. And you know, make sure that Thursday is date night. Okay, that's nothing gets scheduled.

1:17:02 On day night. There's certain things that just aren't movable. The answer is no. And when you can have those really hard nose. It makes

1:17:10 Feeling the time of everything else. All that much. Easier. But that's it, I mean it ultimately comes down to are you being Real about it or you be being fake about it?

1:17:20 In your view. You talk about being nice and being kind. Um, I've heard you talk about this on your podcast. What's the difference between being a nice person and a kind person and which one should I aspire to be? Stop being nice.

1:17:33 At the expense. Of being real. So nice is something that we got Hey, be nice. Play nice.

1:17:42 And if you Believe. Forever and always that being nice serves you well. You will ultimately serve it. You will people please. You will only choose to say the nice thing. You will

1:17:56 Nice is very surface. If You went on a date with somebody. And I was like, how's the date? And you said she was nice.

1:18:04 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Does it does that mean that was good? No, of course. But you want to say the Nice. Thing.

1:18:11 And so it becomes very much about pleasantries of what's something that that is politically correct or w whatever it is. Kind of. It's very deep. It's related to the word kin. It's it's connection.

1:18:25 So we're Nice is concerned about surface. Kinda's worried about. Connection. So

1:18:32 Nice people say, Oh, I I can't tell them the truth. That's that wouldn't be nice. That wouldn't be nice. I can't say that. Kind says I care about you enough.

1:18:42 To say The truth. That I I care about you enough. To tell you the truth. So when you have the chance, don't choose Nice.

1:18:51 At the expense of being real. Choose The kind thing. I give you and I We're In a conversation and I was like, Oh, I could really

1:19:00 I can just go, Yeah, man, that sounds great. With the decision you're gonna make. Because I just I don't want to upset you. That that wouldn't be nice. Versus me saying Stephen O

1:19:09 I have to tell you, man. This doesn't feel right to me. Which one's The kind thing. Telling you the actual truth.

1:19:18 It's being authentic to it. So a lot of people they They look back and they're just people pleasing. That's all they've they've been because they've always chosen what's nice. No, it's kind. You must get l a lot of messages from a lot of people, pleasers. All the time.

1:19:31 And what is it they want from you? They're wanting to know how to stop pleasing other people and to start start pleasing themselves. Like how to I always say that There's not a problem with People pleasing as long as you're one of them.

1:19:44 Yeah, of of It's okay to do things that other people I'm not saying it in a s as a servitude way of I can never have any of my own voice. It's

1:19:57 It's where You constantly Or Put yourself in Inconvenient.

1:20:06 Places. That they will see your true value. So they conflate The pleasure of others with the value of themselves.

1:20:17 And so Meaning I mean nothing to myself if you're not happy. with me. I mean nothing to myself if if I can't please You you you want this Oh okay, I'll go get it.

1:20:27 But you need this let me do this. Oh I already thought about this. You love this. And they've forgotten. their own sense. And so I I've met people that have You know, i a lot of it's also early childhood. Right they they learned.

1:20:41 That To save the marriage between mom and dad. They need to be everything to everybody. They have to give up. They they've missed childhood. In order to please

1:20:51 Everybody else. And so it becomes a a pattern of safety. It's a survival skill. Of knowing for me to have To survive in this, for me to have worth?

1:21:01 Well I can't do it unless everybody else is happy with me. Are there any case studies that come to mind of people that have read your work and have made real transformations that have shocked you or made you happy or proven to you the profundity of being able to take control of conversation. We took a s a survey poll within My membership.

1:21:22 And it was Already Think it was like ninety three percent of people with even in the first Three chapters of my book. it had already significantly impacted them.

1:21:34 in their job, their family, and exactly what they were reading the book for. Because everybody picks it up for the conversation they have in their mind. Yeah, they People don't watch my content to handle To know how to handle the last conversation. They watched to know how to handle the

1:21:49 The next one. And so to be able to provide the results that they're Wanning. Is a is a is a blessing. I've just finished writing my third book. I haven't firmed up the title yet, but I have started mocking up some different designs. And I've been doing this with Adobe Express, which is one of our sponsors. What I love about Adobe Express is that it makes it so easy for me to obsess over the tiniest details, the typography, the font, the colour, the text placement.

1:22:16 The stuff that might sound petty to most people, but actually compounds to create something that stands out, something that's one better. than the rest. And designing my cover art has reminded me of how many creative things I've learned over the years. But it's also reminded me that there are so many creative minds around me that are also sitting on their own secrets. So I've created the one better guide in Adobe Express to bring those tips to you. And in it you'll find principles from the very, very best in their industry turned into quick and easy practices for you to apply. So you can train yourself to create exactly like the best performing teams in the world do. Just head over to adobe.ly slash one better to download Adobe Express now. And make sure you visit the learn tab to discover how you can become one better. Than the rest.

1:23:01 Is there a particular moment of conflict which you stays with you the most? When you think about A difficult conversation in your life. Yeah. There was one

1:23:12 that I I talk about my book That was probably the most gut wrenching at that time was me leaving the the law firm where I was at, having to talk to my dad about leaving that firm. But that's Let's say that's in the the book.

1:23:25 What's Fresh for me now. You wanna talk about that? is conversations that I've had with Marwarve with Sierra. And

1:23:36 I'm having a hard time. Reaching. I'm uh she's having a hard time reaching for me where I kinda just go static. where I do feel sad, I do feel remorse or I I'm trying to and I t I have a hard time expressing it. So the best thing I can do in that mind is I use my words.

1:23:56 Yeah, I I feel regret for what's happened or what I've done. And I may not be shown it right now, but I

1:24:06 This is not something I'm proud of. To be at least able to show in my words how I'm feeling. So It let's say for example it's about anything related to I it could be any argument. Really with a

1:24:21 a husband and a wife or a spouse or partner or whatever it is. But we had one. Not too long ago. Where We knew we were gonna be

1:24:31 Traveling for a bit. And sometimes if it's just the two of us, what's gonna happen? You're gonna You're gonna have some spats. about probably the dumbest things you could probably have a fight about, but that's what what happens. And

1:24:45 I said to her, I was like, Well that you know, if we Do this and do that. Yeah. We're not probably gonna argue about it, it's gonna be fine. And she said to me, She said, Well

1:24:56 Either way, it's good. Meaning If you don't argue about something great. But if we do argue about it. That's good too. To be able to

1:25:06 see it as a chance to understand each other a little bit more, to know each other. A little bit more. And It's it's it's not without being radically honest. um with the person you want to be with.

1:25:21 And that's that's hard for a lot of people. I had a friend of mine say to me the other day that the thing that annoys him most about his wife is just like how long she takes to get ready. And he like really like offloaded it to me. In a way where I'm like, This is a problem for him. Yeah. She just takes so long to get ready. And she's like which means they're always late to things. A lot of guys can relate to this, including myself. But the way he said it to me was was Surprising. And I I remember thinking should he just

1:25:44 Go and have this conversation with her. Or is this like an illegitimate I think that sometimes with the you know,'cause you were talking about your experience with Sierra and her saying like either way it's a good thing.

1:25:56 Are all arguments. Warranted. Like is that argument you take too long to get ready and it's pissing me off. Is that oh A valid thing.

1:26:06 To raise with your partner. In therapy they say if it's hysterical, it's historical. Meaning If it's really that big of a deal, then there's probably something deeper going on.

1:26:17 It's really affecting you that much. It's like those people who say, Well he's always pushing my buttons. I ask Well why is there a button? You know, it's if if it's always getting you worked up, there's probably something deeper that you're not Noticing. It's probably related to something that happened when he was a kid.

1:26:35 Or something that Maybe it's Yeah, gonna give a good example. Yeah. And

1:26:43 And our marriage. I'm the spender. She's the saver. Okay. Opinion to a dime.

1:26:50 Alright. You can pinch a penny into a dime. And she got really frustrated with me of like, why do you always need the nicest thing? Right. And that's typically if she's Has an option of several things.

1:27:04 Even if I don't know the price tags, I typically end up going with the one that's most expensive. And that infuriates her. Right, because she she wouldn't do that. She's gonna wait for it to go on sale. It she could have something she really wants and she's just gonna track it forever in her mind until it goes on sale. And that's that gives her satisfaction. Me? I'll just go buy it. And I'm not saying I'm crazy. Yeah, what's I'm not like some crazy spender. But this is an issue that

1:27:28 has always bothered her and bothered me. And What we had come to find out We had actually used this with my AI, actually, but What we had come to learn.

1:27:39 Is that the reason why it affected me so much of like why why do you always choose the the nice thing? It's related to when I was a kid. As the oldest I

1:27:53 I didn't get much of the The nice thing. Hand me down from a friend or something else, or I I didn't get the nice thing. And at some point along the way, you equate that to your sense of worth.

1:28:08 And so when I first had the ability to pay for anything for myself, yeah, I I I bought the on brand Cornflakes. You know, I bought the the the on brand uh medication. Because to me that that was equal to

1:28:23 How I wanted to Others to perceive me. And so When she realized that oh it's not just me wanting to splurge or have some kind of You know, you just think you

1:28:34 um have to buy the best. It was like no, that's actually it's a reflection of When you buy me something nice, I feel like you Equate that to how much Value I I hold I'm not worth

1:28:45 buying something nice for. And so it was related a lot to my stuff. And we got to talk the same about her stuff of why She doesn't want to. Buy the thing.

1:28:55 It's like that. Having these super conversations with your friend of why does it bother her when she gets Takes forever to get dressed. Well, most likely. It's related to something in his past that's Bother them that He's not

1:29:09 seeing yet. Or the conversation worth having? Yeah. I think it's absolutely worth having. If it's bothering you that much. Yeah. I if it's hysterical, it's historical. I think that's a really good point, which is where All just dealing with other people's inner child. Like we're all dealing with it's just like me as a child facing you as a child. I know we look like adults now, I'm I have no grey hair, but yes

1:29:31 It's really still Us just playing out the stories and narratives from our childhood oftentimes. You're exactly right. They they say in therapy the worst thing about parents is that they had parents. You know, I mean they they It's so easy for me just to look at My mom.

1:29:45 And may forget that She had parents. You know that What they did to her. Rather than me just looking at what my parents have done to me.

1:29:54 You know, and and that's the definition of the generational cycle. And it's choosing to do something Different. with with who you are and who you want to be and who how you want to raise the next generation. But we're it's it's all survival skills. It's all

1:30:12 Childhood trauma that's related to when people I have a section in my book of having people define out Their own The the communication skills they saw growing up.

1:30:26 Because most of the time if you feel like arguments have to be this big shouting match and everybody's yelling and it's it's also typically cultural. You know of How certain cultures how they argue and how loud it is and if everybody

1:30:40 Versus there's some cultures and families that it's very Quiet. Like I I I'll never forget going to a friend's house. I was about seven.

1:30:50 And his parents. While we're eating cereal. I just Had at it. And I was mortified.

1:30:57 Like arguing. Arguing. I mean yelling at each other. And I am

1:31:04 Like bowling head mortified. And my friend is just eating Cam bother him whatsoever. It's just another Tuesday. You know, and Whereas I grew up with if my parents

1:31:14 Argued? It was gonna be in their bedroom. You know, I knew if the they were gonna they went to close the door and they were gonna have A a conversation that they didn't want us to hear. And so everybody has been modeled.

1:31:27 Something different where The uh like there's I've seen it on the negative side where people feel like You don't really love me unless you want to fight with me. It's because that's all they've been modeled. Fights.

1:31:40 They have to say the most hurtful thing, they need to be in tears, they need to be saying horrible things to each other. for them to feel any kind of love. And I've also seen it where People are wallflower. They don't want to say anything. They wanna Be really hesitant.

1:31:54 Because bad things happened when they spoke out. At home. They they realize that Telling the truth. Yeah.

1:32:02 Wasn't good for them. They they they learned that lies protected them. It's interesting when you have one parent that conducted themselves in a certain way, and the other parent was the opposite. Yeah. What then happens to you.

1:32:13 Like which communication style you then adopt? Which Parent takes more of an interest in you. Is where it typically goes. The one you're most of the time with.

1:32:24 And see, I know people who Their parents are kinda absent. But they spent a lot of time with their grandmother. And so I know a guy. Who

1:32:32 He sounds just like his southern Grandmother from Kentucky. You know, because that's who he spent most of his Time with. And so it's it's who takes the most

1:32:41 Interest. in you. It's it's where The parents Now what I find so Interesting.

1:32:50 In communication, we talk. Everything is learned from How we were raised. Is at one point in time there is utility.

1:32:59 There's a utility to lie. It protected you. protected maybe your mom, it protected maybe your dad. There's utility to it. There's a utility to manipulating. weren't this way in order to keep the family together. So there is a utility

1:33:14 to the very skill that you still have, and eventually it catches up with you. What is it about our communication do you think that makes us accidentally disliked by other people? Sounds fake. It sounds fake. And w how does it sound fake? Give me some colour.

1:33:30 Mm. If you want to know the secret if somebody's being fake with you There's really three things that You gotta know. Number one.

1:33:39 Bestie bombing. Bestie bombing. Yeah. So instead of like love bombing. It's bestie bombing.

1:33:46 have people who come to me all the time of s I I feel like somebody's being fake with them. And what they're doing is it's oh my gosh, I just we're we're literally the same person. Oh I think we're best friends. And we just met. Like I just we I or you talk we're just standing next to each other at the same party and oh, we've got to go Oh my gosh, we you're my best you're my soulmate. And it's like they They give way too much right out of the gate of how much they love you. Uh yeah. And it's It's nothing that's not what secure people do. Secure people

1:34:15 don't attach to you instantly. Is that a form of manipulation? No, it's a form of insecurity. It's it's a form because if It would be manipulation if they actually meant it. Yeah.

1:34:27 It's it's These inauthentic relationships. That All of a sudden it's like Oh my gosh, we We're we're gonna be best friends.

1:34:37 I I love you so much. I did. I I'm I don't even know I don't even know your last name. What are you what are you talking about? So I you see that a lot. Two is the overcompliments. We all have this sixth sense.

1:34:50 To be able to sniff out. If That's real or not. Like nobody needs to teach you. If it's a fake laugh or not. You know what I mean? Like yeah. I don't know, was that real enough too funny, yeah,'cause we we think we can spa everyone else's fake laugh and then we can spa us. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. It's like but nobody had to teach that to you.

1:35:12 Nobody had to say, Hey, if you hear like this, it's a fake laugh. No no no, we all as humans it's We have an ability, a sense to go, nah, that didn't sound real. That's not a real smile. Yeah, people have their Like photo smile.

1:35:25 And the real smile. Yeah. And the same with the the the laughter. Or you're like that's not that wasn't that funny. Or they overcompliment something. They compliment your shoes I mean

1:35:37 And then they have really they've go, Oh my gosh, I I I love that outfit. And then all of a sudden they've turned their head. You know what I mean? They're not really truly engaged in what it is. It's just It's it's a ritual. to them of that's how they've learned. Because to me if you have to perfectly curate

1:35:53 Yourself. This the sense of perfection. You you're not getting The real human. You're getting A person and character.

1:36:02 You're getting them in and scene. You know, they have to like get into it. And so It's it's um It's something that's so so fake every Every single time.

1:36:15 The third that you have to watch out for are the people that Aren't willing. to actually have an interest in you. Meaning they never ask Anything about you.

1:36:26 They're only wanting to talk about themselves. Like have you ever been in a I know you have, and you're networking in a big room and somebody's looking at you and all of a sudden they're looking at the room. Like they're They're looking for who they're gonna talk to next.

1:36:39 And you've lost them. And so it's like why we're both just kinda here. Saying things are gonna slow down our words so it's not as awkward. And you say things like Yeah, that's that's crazy. Yeah, and like While you're both looking for somebody else to

1:36:54 talk to but that's what happens. I you realize you stay you come out of focus and they They're looking for the next person. A really um surprising. Point of uh feedback or a compliment someone gave me once. And it's surprising because I never considered it to be something that people were noticing is when I do like meet and greets. And you're meeting, say, a hundred people before or after a talk or whatever, and they're coming up one one at a time.

1:37:16 I will get DMs. In the preceding days. Of people telling me that they liked the way that they watched me pay attention to someone else. Do you get this? All the time. Yeah. They're watching. They're watching how how interested you are in the person that's talking to you. And I didn't I didn't obviously it's not something I'd thought about before until I probably had about twenty messages over the last

1:37:40 Year or two from people saying, And you know what I noticed, Steven? How much you were paying attention to the person that spoke to you. Right. Not to them. Exactly. They were in the line waiting. But it's the per and I just thought that's so interesting that we judge other people. by how they interact with Other people while we're watching as well. Right. And that being interested is seen as m makes you likable, I guess.

1:38:01 Presence. Is it the highest form? Of authenticity. I I can talk to you, but am I here with you? If I do I have my eyes with you, am I am I interested

1:38:12 In you. It uh am I easily distracted. Am I have my phone? Am I am I really paying attention or am I making sure that you know you are the most important thing? That's happening. In this moment, even if it's a glimmer.

1:38:26 Even if it's for thirty Twenty seconds. And you're doing a meet and greet and you're saying hi, or or you're assigning their book. Do you ask them their name? Do you use their name?

1:38:36 Do you look at them with intent of true, genuine thank you for being here. None of this would happen if not for you. Time. And they they they know. I mean it's it's

1:38:49 It's such a It's like what you know it when you feel it. Kinda thing. And to me is it's presence. Am I am I truly here with you? Okay, because even at the house, you know, I you can say, Well, I'm home all the time, but are you Are you just looking on your phone? Are you just sitting on the couch? Are you always reading? Are you That's not presence. I'm gonna play this video on the screen for anyone that's uh watching the video. But it it immediately made me think of um

1:39:15 This clip that went viral of Marley Cyrus and Amy Campbell. Oh I haven't seen this. They were doing a meet and greet. Together. And they were just chatting to each other and kind of ignoring the fans.

1:39:27 And you can't. And I I just remember thinking th this is like the antithesis of what we've just said. Mm-hmm. It's painful to watch. I I know it's painful for the people. I mean I It's several layers of where

1:39:50 One. It's an area of really Little forgiveness. You know, I if you think of somebody of of her caliber, so to say, of like her celebrity.

1:40:00 Right. seen thousands, millions, it's happen and is there really room for Just having a conversation with somebody. Like if I w if you're her, how do you What would be the justification? Right, if you could just pause and say, What is it? Maybe you say, Well, there isn't any.

1:40:16 Okay, that's fine. But let's say one When it comes to presents. There's really not any room. Sure. Forgiveness. It's it's either your

1:40:26 present with them or you're you're not because this kind of thing can last forever. Second of all People will Forget what you did, but they'll never forget. How you made them feel. And

1:40:40 People remember you, Steven. Of They will tell their kids and their grandkids of the time that they met you And how nice you were. How present you were.

1:40:51 And how you We're genuinely interested. And then All the difference. If you have one slip up. That's it's it's

1:41:00 it's not very forgivable. When when you have one slip up, it's showing applied to all because if you can do it to them You can do it to me. The slip up will also travel much further. Faster too. Because I guarantee you, you know, you think of all the meet and greets that somebody like that has had and has had genuine

1:41:18 Real interest. They they mess up one time, they get tired one time. That's what travels way faster. So But the thing is that

1:41:27 That's why I say Presence is the highest form of authenticity because if you can Take that moment to be truly interested. In somebody because who am I? You know, I'm I'm a guy from a small town who made videos in my car, and you're gonna come to my book signing and you traveled and you flew in two hours? Like, why would I not? Hold up. Take the line let me spend

1:41:48 Three minutes with you. Can I give three minutes of my life to talk to you? What are you doing here? And so when you have That humility. And there's several people I know you know many names. Of

1:42:02 They They forgot how they got what they got. Oh yeah. I have a r really interesting example of this recently where We appointed new chairman to our company. He's called Nicky.

1:42:14 And um Incredible guy. He's been at like been Proctor and Gamble, doing product for I don't know, twelve years, then went to Boston Consulting Group and was one of the s senior figures at Boston Consulting Group for twenty five years. And you know, he's in the Just

1:42:29 The home stretch of his career. And he join our company. And He is You know, he he's achieved so much. He's he's worked with the biggest, the best in the world globally. Right.

1:42:42 So he's got the right. One would say. That's what someone might say. Ah. I'm over here in Los Angeles.

1:42:51 Um he joins the company as chairman. And the interesting thing The interesting feedback I got. I know, five thousand miles away. was a very junior member of the team came up to me and said.

1:43:03 Oh, I love Nicky. I was like Explain. And he went to the wrong thing. He sat down with me.

1:43:09 And gave me an hour of his time. That was the reason he loved him. That's it. That was it. It was presents.

1:43:16 And what what I I later found out was that Nikki went into the company and there is hundreds of people. And he sat down with every single one of them. Regardless of whether you're an intern. Or whether you're the CEO. And it always it's always stayed with me how much That has mattered. how much that has shaped his perception. Just dispropor he's brilliant and everything but disproportionately shaped his perception just by

1:43:38 Giving someone the most valuable thing, which is just their time. And I'm I mean maybe it's a a story of How to be a good partner. Maybe it's a story of how to be you know in the public eye. Right. Maybe it's also a story of how to be a great colleague or team member or leader.

1:43:54 Yeah. Or just a great human. There is um. when you're always in the habit of giving. Giving then.

1:44:03 Feels a lot like receiving. So when I'm giving my time. It also Feels like I'm receiving. That time.

1:44:10 back when I can continually have that spirit. And you have that knowledge of Humility. And they say what does humility mean? It it means you realize that you are just as weird and terrible as everybody else. When you realise I I'm

1:44:27 I'm the chief. Worst person. There is. No, I I'm not better than a single person. That is in line.

1:44:34 to do some or attend something or sit in an audience. I I am no better. I've just been through a lot. Still been through a lot. And so I know a lot.

1:44:45 And when you have that mindset of I want to meet and touch every single Person. If I And

1:44:55 Only talk to you. But not talk to your team. Mm. What do you think that's gonna do? Go somewhere.

1:45:03 And not just talk to who's the most popular. But also talk to who's the least. Like it's It is uh You will always get way more.

1:45:14 And for yourself. And for the other person when you can lower yourself to say Hey, we're just humans in a room. How's it going? It's interesting that we um we're figuring people out by how we observe them vicariously. We were talking about it in the context of like a meeting group a second ago. Yeah. What you said there tracks perfectly with with that, which is when you walked in the room. You didn't just speak to me, you also asked

1:45:36 Berta, who's uh recording the podcast today, what her name was, and then you said to Berta, you said, Thank you for doing this. Right. Now, isn't it funny that I remember. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it funny that that was like two and a half hours ago. And I remember because it was really memorable to me that you did that. Because not everybody does that. Not everybody will, you know, notice that Bud is in the room with us and she's running all these cameras and she's putting it together, but for some reason, just before we started recording, you made a point of asking her what her name was and then And then thanking her for doing this today. Most people don't do that.

1:46:06 That's funny. And As you walk away from today, I'm not gonna r remember like that you you walked in and said something nice about me or whatever. The most shocking thing. And therefore the most memorable because it is the most unusual. Because it is typically the most overlooked. Is you

1:46:20 Acknowledging The other people. Yeah. And um

1:46:26 I've noticed this as a paradox that I almost need to put words to, but I I remember in in uh something I wrote a long time ago saying how Useless absurdity will define you more than useful practicality. And what I mean by that is the example I was giving was in the context of my old gym. Where they have this massive climbing wall in the entrance and I came home to my girlfriend and said, This is this incredible gym. It's massive. They even have

1:46:50 A hundred foot climbing wall in the entrance. What I'm doing is I'm pointing at the most absurd thing. To give you a shortcut. That tells you. Everything.

1:46:59 about that gym. Now if I put in the most absurd thing, you know the gym is big. Oh I got chills. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yes. If I say there's a hundred foot climbing wall, you know there's lots of running machines. Right. So if I if I when I leave here and go, he was so nice. He even spoke to Berta and um thanked her for doing the podcast. I'm using that as a shortcut. Because it's the most standout absurd thing to tell other people everything about you. Yes. I love that. And this is why we should value the the seemingly petty and seemingly small and seeming inconsequential. Because other people don't, therefore it creates maximal impact.

1:47:30 Yes. That's why The big conversations rarely matter. The small ones too. It's the small ones with strangers. It's the conversations you don't have on the stage. It's the conversations you have in your driveway. It's the conversations you have in your backyard.

1:47:42 at the coffee shop. It's it's the conversations you have to somebody passing by in the elevator. Like it's those that that's what defines a human experience. If I were to Text you a compliment. Right? That's one thing.

1:47:58 But if I were to say Hey. I just finished lunch with sh so and so, who you also know. I gotta tell you, this person loves you so much. And and I share with you what they said about you, you're gonna take that differently. If I wanted to give you let's say if somebody wanted to give me a gift.

1:48:12 Right. But instead they didn't give it to me they gave it to my kids. I mean that's How how much more would that define How much they care.

1:48:20 Right. Any time I go on a a stage I make it a priority. That I know the guy who's Or girl who's putting on my

1:48:30 The A V system, the lapel mic, the everything. I wanna know their name. I don't know how How many times I've done this today? How they're doing?

1:48:37 Because it's so easy just to turn and keep talking to who's important while and act like they're just doing it. Like it's W when you can truly Hawk. To the people.

1:48:49 That's just a regular person and forget that you you don't have to just stick to the somebody's. You don't have to look always for the somebody's. I used to say that I Again, this comes from employing a lot of people that we all have invisible PR. Mm.

1:49:01 And it's And it shows up in the moments that matters the most. But it's built. In the moments that seem to matter the least. Yeah. And the example I always think of is being working in the New York office um many years ago.

1:49:13 And getting a message from my team member just saying Oh Sure. Jenny's so nice. She just Tim tripped over and Jenny immediately got up from her desk and ran across uh to the first aid kit and sort of him out. She's so nice. And I'd hear that three thousand miles away. And then a year later I'd be sat with Jenny during her

1:49:30 Promotion conversation. Yeah. And that one Thing she did. That small thing she did. was m often the time where I'd go, Do you know what, this person is a certain type of person and we should

1:49:41 Right. Double down on them. And then I've got the opposite as well. I've got the a little thing someone did to someone who was not Necessarily that. line manager or significant

1:49:52 And it You know. And even Things that happened to me t years ago when I came up to s I walked up to someone famous. I've shot told this story before it's so crazy I told this story on the podcast. Episode three. No one listened. And then um

1:50:08 Like three, four years later, the podcast got bigger and people started listening to pe people go back to the old episodes. Mm-hmm. And this famous person tweeted me like four years later, and was like, I heard you're talking about me in the UK, blah blah blah. But I I was I was just sharing it as an example for like Invisible PR. where someone I gone up to someone famous and asked them a question. And they just like

1:50:28 Yeah. Like played into me. Right. I and I you know. I don't know what they're going through that day, but it it always you know. Well that that's but that brings it around. Like full circle.

1:50:39 Like we just said, you can have those little moments where It's It's the rock wall. Right where Little moments of connection.

1:50:47 Oh. presence of real authenticity of them being with you that you'll remember forever. And I bet if I had to guess, there's a moment And Steven at the playground.

1:50:58 Growing up. That a or a teacher Somebody in your life said something that Was nice and you've remembered forever. Oh yeah. But I

1:51:08 But also venture it a bit. Yes, before you've even said I could I thought of the moment. That Playground Steven where somebody said something Hurtful. Yeah. Or rude. Or

1:51:19 Said something about how you look. Or your appearance. Maybe not even recess, but sometime in your life. Oh yeah. And it was just something maybe it was about For a lot of people it's like their weight or their appearance or their looks. And they've carried that around with them forever. And that

1:51:34 Like Without knowing it, that person gave you an insecurity for the rest of your life. And so it's so wild to me how The positive is remembered. The negative.

1:51:47 Is remembered much longer. And travels a lot farther. And I mean it's when I ask that to a group that I'm talking to. Those hands are always way more raised for the negative, for the one thing that

1:52:00 The power of your words. Last way longer than than you'd ever think. The ripple effect. or affect people you've never met. I mean you think think of the people who you've touched.

1:52:11 And the people you've never met. But yet they have a perception of you. Based three persons down. Mm. Right, and and how I talk to my kids will affect how they talk to their kids and their kids.

1:52:23 Children I'll never meet. And when you realize that How I talk to the person behind the cashier affects How He or she

1:52:32 Talks to their kids when they go home. Based on what I said. Will determine whether they come home and say, I had a really bad day. I had a really hard day. And it it's because of what I said? Because I was rude, or I was impatient because it they didn't get it to me fast enough?

1:52:49 And all of a sudden without knowing Just as much as the positive lasts, so does the negative. It's now I What I chose to say is Responsible for how they're treating their own kids. And that's what how we are as humans, right? Like we um

1:53:02 The reason why we survived is because we're good at gossip. We're good at passing on stories, so You know, I could tell people before they met you if you were a risk. No, yeah. I could tell you know, don't go near him th don't go near that cave. There's a threat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. It's a survival adaptation, I guess, in some respects, to be gossipy and to pass on people's reputations. But we've always asked what's the news?

1:53:24 You know, people going through town from town to town. You n you didn't you don't really have a paper. It's do you have any news? So I'm gonna push you to close. To give me The five things that you think are most important. For anyone who's striving to be a masterful

1:53:40 communicator, conversationalist. to get what they want out of life. Which is really what I think Is it is the last domino when we talk about body language or communication tactics or all the things we're talking about. I think people are trying to get something out of life, whether it's to have a better relationship or to be respected or what uh get a promotion to be successful. I think that's probably the the output we're looking for.

1:54:03 Mm-hmm. Ultimately. Do you agree with that? I don't want to Like what is it that it th what's the last domino? That people are looking for when they talk about this stuff up here. Self worth.

1:54:14 Self worth, okay. Enough. Emily enough, okay. So what are the What are the five most important things to summarise? If you had to give me five.

1:54:24 The first Is authenticity. If I cannot be genuine with you. If I cannot be real with you. Then I can be nobody to you.

1:54:35 And on authenticity. You know on your bad day. Are you still authentic? Yeah work. Yeah.

1:54:43 You know, having a bad day. Do you show up to work as your authentic self? I would say yes. I mean there's obviously certain parameters that are within social norms of Just because I'm having a bad time and in a bad mood, does that give me a right to Rip you a new one, uh just because you said hello to me that morning? You know, no.

1:55:01 But I I think that there is certainly a space to say Don't I keep Like you're happy when you're not. What about lying?

1:55:09 Is that a violation of authenticity? So c colleages they say What do you think of my new Hack up. And you think it's terrible. Yeah.

1:55:18 What you what'd you say? It's an interesting choice. Probably is what I'd say. So you wouldn't lie. No. I wouldn't. I would probably change it to where it's I'm glad that they like it.

1:55:30 You know, I I don't have to like it for you to given any type of worth. If you like it, that's awesome. And authenticity authenticity as a strategy builds trust over time, so that's A long term game, I guess. Yeah. No, I I came across some research uh recently where it was in social settings, those that are more

1:55:48 Authentic are also the ones that are. more trusted than the ones you want to be around. Yeah. Why do people struggle with authenticity? It goes back to this point about people pleasing, I guess, but There is a certain t type of person I think that probably struggles to just be

1:56:02 Hmm. You know, just to show up in all the ways that they They are. To be themselves. They grew up

1:56:12 In places that weren't safe. Whether Physically or emotionally. They they grew up unsafe. And so they're always tense.

1:56:23 They're always anxious. They're always worried about the next shoe to drop. They can't rest. You see people that I'm come

1:56:33 From very hard. Harsh environments. You'll see the survival skills that Out of that.

1:56:40 Um It's because it they they simply didn't have a place to be Safe. Number two. Reduce the amount of distraction.

1:56:53 Jeose. Distraction. Is that the same as saying like increased presence? Well, that is the the benefit of it. Yeah.

1:57:02 If you want to increase your presence, you have to eliminate distractions. And that means eliminate how often you're on your phone. I've got some thread here. Do you know why this is here? Yes.

1:57:13 Well, Explain. So Just a piece of Very pretty red string.

1:57:20 And this string is going to represent the connection between the two of us. So give you the end of it. What I just gave you is a piece of String it and it connects. between your hand and my hand and it's taught.

1:57:32 Right now. This string Right now represents The connection. Between us in conversation.

1:57:38 It's tight. I'm gonna ask questions throughout this that Don't think about how what the right answer is. Just go with what your gut instinct of how it feels. So right now it's tight. And if I look at you in the eye and I say, Steven How's it going, man?

1:57:55 It's going good. Yeah. Yeah. What was something that frustrated you yesterday? My haircut didn't get a plan. Tell me about it. It's just not g it's not good. I don't like it. Do you find that some of the The biggest struggles you had yesterday was mostly with

1:58:09 Business or personal, or tell me something with business. Um Yeah. Go ahead. Okay, so you're on your phone now.

1:58:21 And the connection has been Reduced. Um I just pulled out my phone. And now I'm looking and what did you feel? In the line.

1:58:31 I felt like the Tightness went it went loose. Yeah, it went slack. Right. That's the physical. Was emotionally how did that feel?

1:58:39 It felt disrespectful. Yeah. And see, if I had just both had both hands on it, like this. Now let's put it taut again. And I'm talking to you.

1:58:49 And I say, So what's what are you looking forward to this weekend? I'm looking forward to No, go ahead. And this isn't me just turn uh it's still tight. Don't worry. It's I still am connected to you. No don't worry about it. I'm I'm right here. Go ahead. Yeah. Exactly. You see how all of a sudden you want it to let go now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, for anybody listening. So you we both had it tight. I look at my phone while still holding tight. Where I'm saying no no, I'm listening, go go right ahead.

1:59:13 And all of a sudden You are the one that let go of the line. Yeah. Isn't that something because all of a sudden you gave up. on the conversation. You didn't wanna be in it anymore. What do you typically do if somebody's at dinner with you?

1:59:25 And they pull out their phone. I mean you look away or you could speak to someone else or you or you pull out your phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. You it's like they've given you permission. Pick up.

1:59:36 They're fine. Somebody gets on theirs and you don't wanna look awkward or odd, so what you you only get out Years, and next thing you know, both of you are on your phones. At dinner. We're supposed to be communicating with each other and you're just staring at

1:59:49 Your phone. Do you think I sometimes think this with me being an interview having this iPad in front of me. I'm like, should I get rid of the iPad? Maybe I should. Because I write things down while someone's speaking to me and I I do worry sometimes. That if I'm like looking at a particular point or fact or whatever, then I'm

2:00:05 There's a part of this that is It's it's a production. We have cameras, we have lights. Like this isn't a normal Just if you and I were having coffee. But let's say You and I were having lunch.

2:00:19 And I'm talking like this to you and I Put my phone right here. Do you feel a different thing. Do you feel I'm more connected or less connected. Yeah, and I've mixed priorities, not to the priority. Do you feel any different if I Flip it over. Yes, I do. And my face is it's it's down. Yes, I do. And it's a signal. Of

2:00:38 That you think this is more important and you don't want to be distracted. Imagine What would you feel like? Yeah. You were on a date.

2:00:47 Or Got together with a friend. And you s just said, Hey, where's your phone? He said Oh I just left it in the car. I just wanted Sit with you.

2:00:56 Yes, incredible. Does anybody do that? No, nobody does that. But imagine imagine if Right now. There is

2:01:04 Uh let's say a woman is about to go on a date. And She asked the guy, Where's your phone? And he goes, Oh, I left it in the Left it in the car. I mean what kind of You think he was kinda weird. Yeah, almost like what you mean you wanna be

2:01:18 solely interested in me, I'm signaling that there's nothing else more important. Atypical behavior, some people might see it as a red flag. I that's probably true. But if I have right here Even if I've put it face down on the table and I'm talking to you. I'm at least still having my world, my business, my stress, my chaos. It's my

2:01:39 My pacifier. You don't you're not gonna ask me to take away my blanket, are you? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so I've still it's still there in the conversation with us. So even if I put it down, or I put it between my legs, or I put it in my pocket, which I think is much better of Not letting it. Come out at all. But it's

2:01:55 Mm-hmm. What's the strength of the connection? been that person like we just showed with the string where They get out their phone while you're talking and like mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

2:02:04 Uh right. Go ahead. And you go, I don't want this. Yeah. You let go because it's like that's this isn't real. This isn't real connection. So if you want to be a better communicator, you have to understand the definition of True connection. It's keeping it taught. I am so shocked when I go to restaurants.

2:02:21 With my girlfriend,'cause we have a rule and this is actually a rule that I completely agreed with. Which is like when we go on a date or we go to a restaurant, there's no phones. Exactly. We're not gonna be on our phones in a restaurant. It's mind blowing. Mind blowing. We went to um When we were here we've been here all this week and and We went to a restaurant. Uh here not and I saw so many couples and people and friends and that were just at the table.

2:02:43 And it it was It was dark evening and all you see is the glow of phones. Just everybody just sitting there on their phone. It's just m it's it's crazy to me. Or or the people that are on their couch.

2:02:56 With the T V on. And both of them are on their phones. And the and they're supposed to be watching a movie together. you know, everyone people watches a little bit in restaurants. So I'm not gonna pretend we don't know. I'm not gonna do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But so we we will be in a restaurant and we just sometimes play a little game where we kinda guess How long people have been together based on how they're behaving. Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's fun.

2:03:16 And so it's it tends to be the case that it's the younger couples Where there's a man and a woman and they're both on their phone and I just can't believe what I'm seeing. Yeah, it's probably I'm look, I got my phone a lot. But if I'm on a date. I am not gonna be sat there looking at a screen while she sat there looking on a screen, just in total silence. E even if I've known this woman for thirty five years. Yeah. It becomes so much of a

2:03:40 An emotional pacifier. When I don't like the angst of having to Wait in line by myself. I don't like having to sit on the the subway or the tube or the metro, whatever, by myself. I I get out I get out my phone. I don't it it prevents me from having to have

2:03:56 dialogue. So instead I'd rather just look at my phone and watch And scroll. versus communicating. Like It there's imagine waiting for your haircut. And

2:04:07 Everybody in the room's actually Talking to one another like they used to. And they'd just be wild to you. Everybody In the doctor's office in the waiting room. Everybody's looking at their phone. So yeah, to me, it's such a distraction. And that means even at the house, too. I I think even more so when it comes to the house.

2:04:25 So that was point number two, which was reducing distraction. And therefore increasing presence. Three? Stop. over

2:04:32 Explaining. You have to invest. In the right. Words meaning If you are constantly

2:04:40 Just Gushing words. The whole time. Does it make you want to listen to that person more or less? Oh, yeah. I mean you just kinda discount it. Yeah, y yeah, all of a sudden it's it's kind of like the

2:04:54 that story about the boy who cried wolf. Like you you you talk so much that uh the message gets lost. If I'm always Talking a lot. It's easy to tune it out. It's like it becomes its own static. But if you choose your words, if I'm gonna slow down, so how do you how do you stop yourself from over explaining? Instead of being a waterfall.

2:05:16 Be oil. Meaning rather than trying to gush out information, get them swept away. In your message. You have a confidence in holding your knowledge. If they have a question I'll ask.

2:05:28 You're available for the question should they want to ask. But I'm gonna give you always exactly what you need. If I choose to be a well. with my information rather than just gushing. Because when I over explain All somebody's doing is indicating that I don't really know if I believe what I'm saying or you believe what I'm saying, so I need to say more. I notice there's such power in when someone asks you a question.

2:05:50 Taking a moment to think. And actually sometimes I notice some people will actually say, Let me just think about that. Mm. And the minute they do that, I'm I'm immediately doing the opposite of discounting what they say. I'm now actually Adbated breath to think about to hear this very thoughtful, considered thing they're about to share with me. Right. Whereas you see a lot of people do the opposite, the minute they're asked anything, it's just like the floodgates open. Yes. And they start filling the silence with and they start thinking out loud. Exactly. They're the external thinkers.

2:06:17 What I teach is let your first word Be your breath. Meaning When you put a breath where the first word should be.

2:06:27 Yeah. Everything else. Flows. If I Start gushing. What I'm signaling is

2:06:36 Yeah. I don't Most people wait until they're talking to figure out what they want to say. Yeah. And so they say, Well what I mean to say is I say all that to say.

2:06:46 Because they're still trying to figure it out. But if you were to ask me a really hard question And rather than having that knee jerk reaction, I go That's a good question. Let me think.

2:06:58 Then you're gonna be You're me in it. You're gonna know whatever is about to come out has actually been thought about. is actually gonna be something you want to listen to. Now you're gonna be more curious.

2:07:09 Now you wait with beta breath of what's gonna happen. So When you think of m business meetings. the person who goes, Oh, actually uh you know, I w I disagree with that. If you look at our latest studies and they just start Versus when somebody asks

2:07:24 Yeah, Stephen what do you think? And you go And you just hold that silence. It's like a cliffhanger. Everybody wants to hear. What you said, but people who are confident

2:07:35 They don't have to Say something. To show they know something. They Choose their

2:07:43 Moment. They choose their timing. It appears they're also the people that are most likely to turn around and say, I don't have the answer to that. Yep. People who are truly confident.

2:07:54 No, they don't always have to get it right. They know But they will get it wrong. Confident people. Confidence does not mean you have to know all the answers. Confidence means you know that you don't.

2:08:05 When you have the confidence of knowing I don't know everything. All of a sudden you sound a lot more real. There's also something about you just being the type of person that's willing to sit in silence, but also just take up more space and time. That signals respect. The very fact that you had have the audacity to say, someone asks me a question and I go Hm. Let me just think about that for a second.

2:08:26 It it means that I'm not you y you talked about rushing earlier. I don't rush. And there's something about quite aura about that. About the fact that you you you're not the type of per you're the type of person that can just take seven seconds. Right. Because you are it's your kind of stealing seven seconds. From Everyone there.

2:08:44 Right. So that you can think. The harder The issue, the more time that is necessary. You would think. And instead everybody's equated it to immediate.

2:08:55 I think When Let's say we're on a A ship and it were in the middle of a storm. Who's the person that they all look to to say

2:09:05 I'm freaking out. I'm scared. But the captain isn't. You know, they he this person knows, he she knows. And we're constantly looking for that person. in times of emotional stress. We're or wanting someone to

2:09:19 No, I I'm too anxious, but I can go to this person. Because in times of crisis they say you walk, don't run. No, I I'm When I act like I've been there before and I've seen this. I'm telling everybody else oh well.

2:09:35 Olive. He's not. Worried, I shouldn't be worried. If he's not upset, I don't have to be upset. A lot of doctors, a lot of professionals that deal with conflict uh uh and crisis management.

2:09:46 It's their job. To be as calm. As could be, because if they Reacted in a way that set you off or set you on edge. Well then there's no there's no anchor and then it's

2:09:58 And then it's a bad place to be. But yeah, just having that Let me think about that for a second. Has a different tune of Oh wow, this person

2:10:08 They know who they are. They I don't rush. That's just not what I do. Every time I've had turbulence on a plane and I've looked at the flight tenant to see if this thing is going down. Yes. I've done that I I can't tell you how many times I've done that. Where I'm looking at the the hostess like just walking, going still passing out snacks and not bother. I'm like, Oh okay, if if we must not bother them. We do that in conversation every day. We're we're looking for The calm flight attendants. We're looking for the anchors, the captains, the people who in times of stress and turbulence in our life

2:10:40 We can look to and say. If they're okay. And if they're good, then I'm Then I can be good. And when you can be that person for others, you're a leader. Yeah, always. You are the leader. This is probably the defining trait of I think people that I have employed over the years that I would consider a leader or not a leader. Is how

2:10:57 Different they are. When shit has hit the fan. Yes. And if there is seemingly no difference. In the way they're conducting themselves. Leader. Yeah.

2:11:06 emotional regulator. They bring the temperature down. And then you have the inverse. Well the minute any kind of sign of trouble, there's stress, there's There's overwhelm and it's contagious. And what they need is the calm flight attendant. to regulate them. Right.

2:11:22 So I think a and people I think who want to be leaders in their professional lives should really think about this. Like how do you show up when things are hard? I I always tell the story of one of my friends called Oliver, who When I employed him. Must have been seven, eight years ago. Okay, he wasn't my friend when I hide him.

2:11:38 But the defining trait of Oliver was that Yeah. He would deliver me. Good and bad news. Uh the same.

2:11:49 Yeah. With the same sort of nonchalant. Com Demina.

2:11:56 So he'd walk up to me and say, you know, we've just signed Uber across America, we're gonna be the da da da. And then the days where everything was on fire, he'd walk up to me, say, Steve, can I have a chat? I'd say, Yeah, yeah, cool. He'd say, just so you know. And then he'd deliver. Some of the worst shit I've ever heard in my entire life. But he do it in such a calm way that I both I was calm. And I thought he had it under control.

2:12:18 Right. And I remember always thinking I need to put more people under this guy. Mm. Because he's gonna bring us down. And so I just think as employers, I I I wouldn't have known that my boss or my employer is thinking this unless someone had said it to me. They're watching how I deal. I mean you take people that are are watching you and your team. You have a large team. When when you are

2:12:41 Um upset. And anxious. Everybody feels it. It spreads. But if you're the one that's calm, it That spreads too.

2:12:50 And so it's And You have to get to the situation where if you're upset Then people know it's something to be upset about. Uh uh of

2:13:01 If So I had um A friend in college he was Upset about everything. I mean he just was a hothead. And he got upset about the smallest things.

2:13:10 How can you possibly tell the difference between what is a small thing and a big thing? If you're always having the same level of Reaction. But if you have a calmness

2:13:21 Let's say then you have an explosion because it happens. 'Cause you're human. That's when people know oh this is something serious. Mm-hmm. Because if you always operate out of ten.

2:13:30 Nobody's gonna appreciate it when it's really an eleven. When you think about like military generals and leaders, they also have this other side to them, which is They do all also protect the standard. I think this There's a there's a balance that's almost needed here between

2:13:46 being nonchalant in those moments where something bad's happen, we can't control it now. And then how you defend the standard. So like you watch the military Barracks or whatever when they're going through training, these leaders are like screaming at them about the standards, about the buttons, about iron your shirt, make your boots clean. And so It appears on one end that they are petty about something. And they are emo you know, they are these leaders are emotional. You don't think they're fo football managers. Yeah.

2:14:10 Or sporting managers. Yeah. They they almost exist in a bit of a dichotomy w which is like Knowing when to be controlled and then knowing when to

2:14:22 emotionally seemingly emotionally irrational about something. Yeah, and I think those And the those Um, specific situations are also part of a system. You know, this is a system that they've seen produce the outcome. that they want. So they know that there's a utility

2:14:37 to having that big reaction or there's a purpose. behind it. But I've find that's the negative is when you have people who

2:14:46 There's not a utility. They just They don't have The words. The leaders who let's say Curse a lot.

2:14:53 Because they don't really have the vocabulary. You know, they They would rather Have big emotional reactions. But the but j when you have that type of language that's is not going to

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2:16:42 It's for those who are ready to make the shift from thinking to building, from planning. to actually doing the thing. It's about seeing that dream in your head and knowing exactly what it takes to bring it to life. Enter to win$100,000 for your dream. All you have to do is share what it is. Learn more at daretodream.stan.store. So that was number three. Yeah. Stop over explaining yourself. Yeah. The second one was reducing um distractions, and the first was authenticity. Number four.

2:17:09 Know how to deal with With There's sadness. A lot of people are hurting. That you don't know are hurting.

2:17:22 And a lot of people are grieving that you don't know are grieving. Whether it's the holidays, whether it's uh An important date or event. that you don't know about in their life and they're hurting and grieving. If you really want to be a top level communicator, you need to know

2:17:38 Not to say w Not only when the times are good, but also when the times are are bad. And how does how does one be there for someone when they're going through their moments of sadness? Is there any principles that one should think about? Yeah, when somebody is

2:17:51 Grieving. What you do not do is begin with Let me know if. If you if

2:18:01 If what you are about to say begins with let me know if It's the wrong thing to say. Let me know if you need anything. Uh let me know if I can do anything for you. Uh just just let me know.

2:18:12 Anything you need, let me know. All you're doing is giving them a chore. But th th this person's already grieving. At this moment. It's they're going through something you don't even know how to feel.

2:18:25 And you're now giving them a chore of s of they're supposed to be on their own. to have the ability to Pull out their phone. Text their need to you. It that's never gonna happen.

2:18:43 Let you know that they needed something? Never. Never. Because you've now You've Made it More comfortable on you. And now more of an obligation on them.

2:18:53 And we go Well, you know what? I said all I need to say. I Let me know if you need anything. Let me know how I can help. Right.

2:19:00 When all you've done is just given them an obligation. You've you've burdened it. even more. Of course they don't want to burden you. They don't want they don't even want to they don't even want to live in some of these moments. They they don't want to exist. They don't know how to do it. And saying let me know if Instead of the

2:19:17 Here's what you do when somebody's grieving. You do the thing. Whatever you thought about doing? Go do it. If you wanted to bring them dinner?

2:19:26 Or said let me know if you need any food. Just go get them food. Go do the task. Go run the errand. go show up and do their laundry. Go Mow their yard for them.

2:19:35 Go do the thing. If I really want you to be there for me. And you really want to be there for the other person. You don't have to ask. You just go do.

2:19:46 Second of all, I find a lot of time people Who are with somebody who's grieving, they don't know what to say. They wanna say something. Like I I wanna say something, but I don't I don't really know what to say. I just I feel uncomfortable what I say is not gonna be enough. And so they just stare at their phone and and they kinda text out a sentence and they delete it because they don't really know what to say. The best thing to say is just to validate.

2:20:05 How you would assume it's gonna be feeling for them. Nobody deserves What happened. Unfair. I can't believe that this happened.

2:20:15 Nobody deserves this. Be be able to express and confirm. That What they're feeling.

2:20:23 is exactly what they should be feeling. Don't go in with the At least they're in a better place. Hey, you know what, everything happens for a reason. That's not the right time to say that. If ever. To to be able to try and

2:20:36 Make'em feel better of oh, you know, I just at least they're, you know, not Is there anything I can do? Any of that kind of stuff? It's like, yeah, I know what you can do. You can bring that person back. That's what you can do. That's not gonna happen. You can't do that. And so

2:20:49 you cat yourself in a corner where you genuinely have an interest. Like how many times people say You're in our thoughts. You're my thoughts and prayers. Thoughts and prayers. You know, praying for you. And

2:21:00 They haven't once sent up a prayer. Right? They're just saying it. If you really mean it. Text out the prayer to them. Text of prayer. Dear God, I'm I says that you be with Stephen.

2:21:11 What Send the prayer. to them. Why why not encourage them in that versus just saying He just keeping you in my thoughts.

2:21:21 If you are. Then text them. Thinking about you, no need to respond. You think just putting it in a Facebook comment? Is it gonna do enough? Just

2:21:31 Yeah. In our prayers. That's that's not connection and that's not authentic that that's That's the easy shortcut. I think I've spent my whole life

2:21:39 struggling with those moments where some something bad has happened to someone or they've been through something and You you found out over text message. And You don't have to say. I'm so sorry. Um

2:21:53 And Uh the amount of times I've written something and then deleted it and written something and deleted it and I actually got some feedback from Samir. Um Who is A a very well known YouTuber creator.

2:22:04 And he's he's part of a YouTube channel called Colin and Samir. The the houses burnt down and the palisades fire. Hm. And I'd say what four, five, six months later he came up to me in New York and said, Um Thank you for the message you sent me.

2:22:19 Because It was specific. And I know I've got. There's a cli we have a clip of it'cause we were recording at the time. We were I just come off stage and he was At his at his event in New York and he'd come up to me and said it. And it always stayed with me that he remembered six months later. I didn't even really remember the message I said. He remembered six months later that when his house had

2:22:39 But burnt down. They both just had I think they both had like Less than one year old kids. And then both of the houses had burnt down. I sent him something specific I could help him with. I c I I can't remember the details of what I said, but

2:22:52 He came up and said, Thank you for sending me something. Lots of people sent me messages, but I remember you sent me something specific. That hits the theme of when you Stop trying to be What's most convenient to you. And start doing

2:23:07 What might be just a slightly Little bit more. Uncomfortable. A little bit more work. choice to do something different and be more specific. In the thought.

2:23:16 To to not just say so sorry to hear. Mm. Right. That's that's That's injustice. I mean that's that doesn't even touch it.

2:23:25 But if you were to say you were to say What is happening is totally unfair. Yeah. Agree with it, be specific with it. Same thing with It's the same with compliments.

2:23:38 The more specific it is, the more genuine it is. person that you remember the longest is the person who's able to be Right there with you. And say exactly what you're feeling.

2:23:48 In that moment. And make a genuine offer. to to support. A real and also not not as you said at the start. Not an offer that they have to accept. Yeah. The make it a condition. That they have to reach out to you in order to you consider

2:24:05 giving it. Instead of just doing it. Or or Even when you feel that like I don't really know what the You know what?

2:24:15 If I were them, this is what I'd Want. And go. Do the thing. Otherwise, don't say it if you don't mean it.

2:24:23 I mean that's just the To me that's a sign of You're You're not Their person.

2:24:30 Because There's so many people that are just fair weather friends that they They wanna be there and And be part of the success, but when your face is on the floor. And you're at rock bottom?

2:24:41 The people you'll remember are the people that show up. Amen. I I've heard that so many times from my guests on this podcast where they talk about their hardest moment and it's always who who showed up in that moment that Um Number five.

2:24:53 If you want to be a better communicator, you have to know how to handle The insults. The backbiting, the dismissive. The belittling. the patronizing, the words that people use to try and inflict pain.

2:25:10 What do I do? If you wanna handle somebody who's trying to hurt you with The words the first thing you have to do Is that a bunch of Silence.

2:25:21 Or it's five to seven seconds so if Nothing. Make it make it enough to where it's uncomfortable, where they they know this is not going to be fun. Number two As you ask them to Repeat it.

2:25:34 I need you to say that again. And you uh I needed to repeat that. Most of the time people can't. Do it.

2:25:41 And number three. If I need to, I ask him, Did you mean? Did you mean for that to sound Rude. Did you mean for that to sound short? Did you mean for that to sound

2:25:53 upsetting and when it does is allow you to be able to Operate in a way That doesn't allow their words to hurt you.

2:26:05 Or to touch you or to cut you. Whenever somebody is saying something that's to belittle you or insult you. They're they're putting a big spotlight. On themselves.

2:26:16 throw it onto you to get your reaction. So they're gonna I'm gonna say something hurtful to you and then it's like oh they're turning the spotlight right to you. And then when you Ask. A question. When you Have But just silence. It allows their words to kinda

2:26:29 Echo back to them. And a lot of people will before they even have to say anything, they'll they'll I I shouldn't have said that. The more silence you have, the more awkward. It becomes and they kinda have to Take it back. They realize you didn't take the bait.

2:26:42 But when you put the spotlight and you ask the question, did you Do you mean for that though? Embarrass me. Did you mean for that to sound hurtful? They can't bear the thought of saying yes to that.

2:26:55 So they have to tweak it. They have to Fix it. They have to go Oh no no. I mean what I mean what I meant to say was And they they go a different way. Now, if they were to double down and say, Yes, that's exactly what I meant. You could decide.

2:27:08 Thank you for letting me know. I was thinking about like the neuroscience of what's going on there. Yeah. When you get someone to admit that they're Hurtful. Um

2:27:16 I remember interviewing some neuroscientists who talked about this idea of cognitive dissonance, which is where like We will have a perception of who we are. Mm-hmm. And I guess by what you're doing there.

2:27:26 Your creating the cognitive dissonance, which is the cognitive Mental discomfort. by making me kinda look in the mirror at who I Who I just acted like. If I I don't think I'm a hurtful person. If I say something super hurtful and then you ask me if I meant to be hurtful, you're immediately like speaking to my identity. Yes.

2:27:48 And I don't want I'm not a half a person. Right. And that's causing the the dissonance, which is the sort of the disparity between who I think I am and how I just behaved. Yes. And so I have to alleviate one of them. I have to Makes sense. Nobody believes they're on the side of bad. They always think they're on the side of good.

2:28:03 So you by you saying that to me, I immediately have to confirm. Right. No him. A person who's intent on hurting others. Yes. That's not a rule, but I wanted to do I just wanted to gaslate you a little bit. I just want to cause you pain. Yeah, and so at that moment it's what they're thinking and feeling is I want you to hurt like I'm hurting.

2:28:21 I want you I want to feel the control. 'Cause I don't have a sense of control now and I'm feeling a certain way. I'm upset. So If I can make you upset, well then I can have now I can feel better and more justified about how I'm feeling. And so some people Well

2:28:35 Especially the manipulative ones. They'll be upset. Say something to make you upset. And then turn around and go, I don't know why you're supposed to I'm I'm fine. I'm just fine. I don't know why you're you're so upset. And because they've just left you in it. Now now they

2:28:48 All they've done is just pass it on. To you. Like I I don't like this feeling, so now I'm gonna Give it to you and I'm I'm totally good. What are you talking about? I had a a situation in the gym a a long time ago where

2:28:59 He said that these all these machines were his, so he wanted to use them all. And he just came up to me this was a long, long time ago. And he was so like out of pocket. Like he was

2:29:11 You talked about being in the pocket. Super emotional within like fifteen seconds this sort of slightly older gentleman. And basically like ask me if I wanted to have a fight. And it was so bizarre to me.

2:29:23 Then I felt like an observer, and I genuinely anybody else seeing this? No, it was just me and him in the gym. And I was so I was I felt like David Attenborough. If I was just like And I did it. Inadvertently did what you said, which is my tone didn't change at all. I spoke to him like this. Did you just ask me for a fight in the gym? And then the more because I asked genuinely like genuine curious questions. And it immediately disarmed him. Yes. Don't do that to strangers in the gym. I'm like. Yeah, but that's what it is. It's are are you okay? You know, it's you're having to like have to click on them for a second. Because most of the time when you're hearing them yell.

2:29:58 in in sail things, th what they're truly signaling is I'm not okay. It's there's always something else that's going on. I've done it before where somebody said something hurtful and I said How did Do you expect me to respond to that?

2:30:12 Or how were you wanting me to respond to that or how how did you think I was gonna respond? And it's I I've never had it where they go well I expected you to say an insult. Like the it's always

2:30:24 them backpedaling and then trying to explain how they're feeling in that moment because they they don't know they don't know how to to do it. But if I can ста Put aside, like you did, your frustration. And so Are you asking me for

2:30:39 Fight right now. You know? Are is that what you're really asking for? That kind of are you okay kind of thing. That'll all of a sudden your frustration now goes away. You've changed the frame completely. Absolutely.

2:30:51 'Cause the frame they wanted was aggression. Maybe that's the the language or the frame that they know. As the way to solve problems. But yours was like in that scenario changed to curiosity, which was like what how did that Yeah. Any time you actually Have a mindset.

2:31:05 Of instead of Having something Well don't have something to prove, have something to learn. And so in that moment

2:31:13 You could have easily tried to prove something of Who who do you think you're talking to? Curious of what's going on here. Are you asking me for Questions are powerful that way. Questions are disarming.

2:31:28 For somebody who's trying to be aggressive. with you because they're not looking for that type of Mirror. They don't want him here. They don't want to see. The ugly.

2:31:37 that they're putting out there. But any time somebody has that very aggressive I have so many people who go, Somebody said this to me and was so ugly and said this horrible thing. And they're looking for a quick comeback, which I can give it to them. But if they really care about the relationship. I say okay.

2:31:55 I assume they set it at normal volume. What's their need? Like what are they f what are they really feeling? Mm. Cause if you just respond to the reaction. You're you're not gonna hear the end of it. And we all have triggers. Same. I got I de I definitely have mine. I can't I can't I can't say anything. I'll tell you one of the biggest things that have

2:32:15 Help me too in Um Any any if anybody's wanting to improve their personal relationships with a a partner or anything. It's one is understanding

2:32:27 Validate first. Frustration comes luck next. If I respond first with frustration, I'm gonna lose every time. So it's validating. It's saying of course you'd feel this way. It totally makes sense. I can see how you feel that way. Acknowledging that it's okay for them to feel that way. Otherwise the partner's gonna feel like I'm being too much.

2:32:46 And if I'm being too much, then you're gonna leave. Right. It's the it's the same sense of abandonment. So if I can hit that, you're not being too much. I have the capacity. And uh I can be elastic. in this relationship because I'm not gonna be my best self all the time too. But if I can give you a safe space for you to be messy and me to be messy, then you're actually not gonna have that relationship. Number two, it's

2:33:07 Understanding. That Resets. Is your Uno wild card.

2:33:14 Asking for a reset. For if I were to say, you know what, I didn't say that right. You know what, can I can I try that again? I didn't say that the best way, did I? No, I I could have done that better.

2:33:27 As soon as I start and ask for a reset, I've never had anybody tell me no. Nobody goes, No, no, you have to stick with it right now. Go ahead, keep failing. Like we in a video game, we wouldn't Why would you keep playing if you knew you're ultimately gonna lose? It's you restart, you try again. And so giving yourself the grace and the other person the grace to have the ability to start over again is a necessary part of communicating and relationships. And three is

2:33:51 Slice it thinner. A lot of the times. If We're having a big conversation. We bring up somebody might bring up the past, that past thing, and we just kinda add it on and climb it on when

2:34:03 We start to kind of feel hopeless about it, but if I can slice each issue. By itself and say. I do want to talk about this. I wanna address what's in front of us first. That makes everything go

2:34:15 A whole lot better, but if I can slice Each part and see the need. And validate that. I've always seen that go better. And on that first point about

2:34:24 Um how you engage with your your partner during conflict. One of the most useful things I heard recently was a clip I actually saw of Brene Brown talking about When she comes home after like a long day. She will tell her partner.

2:34:40 How much she has. In the tank. It's so good. And so she'll turn to her partner and say, Listen. I've got ten percent. Mm-hmm. I can't do this today. Right.

2:34:49 And I m I remember getting the clip and sending it to my partner because It's Those that's some of the vocabulary that probably would have really helped a lot of my relationships, which is just First expressing where I'm operating from. So good.

2:35:02 And I don't think anybody is gonna be on the receiving end of Honestly, I've got like ten percent of the tank today and go no, I wanna do this now. Exactly. Well, using percentages in conversation is incredibly helpful. Both in relationships, like Brene mentioned, of saying, You know what, I got ten percent. You got Forty percent, let's put it together and we're gonna make it work. But I at least know where you're coming from. Same thing at work. I I've seen What I encourage is when people are in a meeting. They can a put out an idea.

2:35:30 Right, rather than going, What if Because what happens is everybody just starts to kill it. You know, they start Point arrows at it'cause it's Because it wasn't their idea. So we need to take it down.

2:35:42 They come out and say, Look. I got Thirty percent. of an idea. Then what happens magically.

2:35:47 Is that everybody else wants to join in. So if I were to say look I See if I got. Twenty percent of an idea. I need your help with the other eighty. All of a sudden you take it as a

2:35:57 Oh me? I can I can do that. And then everybody else starts to build it up rather than trying to tear it down. Or even if in conversation if I say look I know I'm not gonna have the right words. I'm gonna have about Sixty percent of it. Like that at least is me confirming that I know what I'm saying is not gonna always be the right thing to say. I wish I did that more.

2:36:19 I believe this is the clip I'm talking about. It was Tim Ferris. Everyone says marriage should be fifty-fifty. It's the biggest crock of bullshit I've ever heard. It's never fifty-fifty. Yeah. Ever. And so what we do is we quantify where we are. So if Steve comes home and he'll be like I got twenty. Just in terms of energy.

2:36:36 Investment. Kindness, patience. I'm at a twenty. And I'll be like I'll cover you. I got you, brother. Like I'll pull the eighty.

2:36:44 Sometimes we come home, which we've done a lot. My mom has been sick and I'll say, I've got ten and Steve Like Two days ago said. I'm riding a solid twenty five. So we know that we have to sit down at the table any time we have less than a hundred combined.

2:37:00 and figure out a plan of kindness toward each other. Oh, I love that. Yeah, because the thing is, marriage is not something that's fifty fifty. a partnership works when you can carry their twenty or they can carry your twenty. And that when you both just have twenty, you have a plan where you don't hurt each other. So good. That's the mistake I've made multiple times. Oh, try and solve big problems with test. It's the mistake we make every day. Yeah. I mean for me and with Sierra and I It's usually if we're in a part of an argument.

2:37:28 Typically our arguments end pretty quickly, but the ones that Go long. It's Sometimes, you know, I just don't feel like it. You know, I I could give an apology, you could give an apology and so I just don't feel it. I don't feel like being sorry right now. I will later. But I in the moment I'm just I I I I just got this stuff in me and I'm not ready.

2:37:46 Yet. And so what happens for me, what's been so helpful. is when I'm aggravated at that edge and I don't want to give a thing. is to say. My battery's in the red. Like we say in the red because of

2:37:59 Yeah, iPhone. It's like I'm once I know I'm in that place. We know to time out. Because it's or else you'd be two hours in and you're still now you've just said way worse things, you know, that you're going to apologize for. And so often when the quicker you can get to a timeout, like if you want to know how well a c a relationship communicates.

2:38:19 Look how often they take. Timeouts. Because timeouts are I mean they're

2:38:27 The the amount of value you get and just A pause, and then even five minutes. Coming back to it. You have a different like Okay, here we go. Like a fresh fresh start. Like why would you

2:38:39 Leave somebody on the field. for three hours and never give them a rest. And you think I can't. Uh we'd do it physically, but I'm not gonna do it. Mentally. Like if you

2:38:50 If you want to know The key to the relationship. The metric that is The most valuable key to a relationship. Is that

2:39:03 The measure The quality of the conversation Is equal. to the quality of the relationship. Said differently.

2:39:11 The quality of the relationship is equal to the quality of the communication. You look at all these couples that are divorcing. Okay. Are the couples that are in Bad states.

2:39:27 It's because they were okay. And the positive. But they don't know how to do deal with the negative. So it's it's the measure of not just Can we talk about the happy stuff?

2:39:38 the if you talk I I talk to these elderly couples have been married for fifty years and I say what's What's your secret? It's It's not can you be happy in the happy. It's can you How long can you sit? With the hard.

2:39:50 Yeah, how how long can you be in the In the sad times,'cause those are gonna Happen. And I see that so many with the people so many people who communicate with me A message or

2:40:02 And they're going through a divorce, or they have been divorced. And You realize it. It's it's not often that they fill out a love. It fell out of communication.

2:40:12 They d they stop talking. To each other. This is I think one of the great myths we're sold when we get into our first relationship, is we think that the sign of a good relationship is a lack of conflict. But If you've ever been in a long relationship, I think over time you start to figure that It's not the amount of conflict, it's like

2:40:31 It's it's how one manages the conflict. I read a quote which I've never forgotten, which said, You can predict the long term health of a relationship by whether each cut heals to 101% or 99%. I. Does your conflict make you stronger? Yeah. And if I look back through the conflict that I've had with like my partner that I've been with a long time now. I go.

2:40:50 It has actually Deep into the roots. Yeah, it has to. Like it's been productive conflict. Mm-hmm. You know, which has made us stronger. Um and that and that in part is because

2:41:02 Of many of the things that you talk about, which is like Trying not to win every argument. Right. And other things in your book, yes. Yeah. Uh that's what Sierra talks about it either way. It's good. Like it's the conflict you want conflict.

2:41:16 in your relationship for the growth. It is rare that you can have individual growth. Alone. It has to be relational. Hundred percent. It has to be with other people. I I I can read a book.

2:41:27 On how to do something, but until I do it? It's it's a totally different game. So I I I learn relationally with things and with other people and places, but For sure relationship.

2:41:40 I mean, there's just no there's no other way to go around it. You have to have the conflict if you want to be If you want to be better. And I I've seen so many times where the people Um They Facing their hands, they don't know how to talk to one another.

2:41:55 Because They gave up on trying to Repair. But they're they're all in on trying to blame. Mm-hmm. And so when you are trying to

2:42:06 kind of undo what has to be done, that makes it all the more difficult because it's just so many years where there could have been repair, but They're There hasn't been. And in turn that really hurts the relationship. I read a recent study. That

2:42:21 The biggest predictor. Of the child's well being within the parental relationship. It's not whether they were married or divorced.

2:42:30 It was how they deal with conflict. Mm. I mean'cause how many people have had Parents that are still together but fight terribly. Yeah, my God, yeah. And and and and in fact should probably maybe not be together. Yeah.

2:42:42 Or those that They're divorced. But communicate great. Yeah. And they never put their child in the middle of it and didn't use the child as a a male carrier between the two. D to be able to do that.

2:42:56 Is I mean you're you get to change the whole trajectory of of a child's life. Some point we have to forgive our parents, right? Yeah, that's that's the truth. Like you said, like th they were they were kids too, raised by Parents that this is their first time still doing it.

2:43:11 Yeah. You have a workbook on its way in March tenth. Called the next conversation workbook. Yeah. practical exercises for arguing less and talking more, which really takes everything that you wrote about and turns it into an actionable blueprint framework for people that really want to embed these habits into their lives.

2:43:30 Um I'm gonna link that below. Is that available for pre order, will it be? Yeah, it's a pre order link, so we'll put that in the description below. You're also working on some AI stuff, which I think's interesting. Yeah, thank you. So I'm about to release uh an AI of just my content. So it has my book, it has my podcast, it has my u t uh any of my social clips of it has it all. And so it's a small language model to where It's everybody can have their own personal communication. Expert. You know, twenty four seven kind of thing, it's what they have on it. But where

2:44:00 People get to practice. So what I love about it the most is Let's say you you say I'm about to go into a important meeting and I wanna sound really confident. What can I do? my spouse

2:44:12 Isn't Listening or really upset, what I do. You apply those right in that That moment. And gives you a different way of perspecting, the different way of seeing things from a different

2:44:24 View or What I definitely what I've uh Like is to tell it. to be a boss, be my boss who's really mean and arrogant. And let's do an exercise of how to respond to this situation. And

2:44:38 You test. Is that response gonna be the best response? And allow it to kinda Have a A different way of practicing things that maybe you need to be ready for,'cause some people need to be ready for the hard response.

2:44:50 I'll link that below too. Yeah. So people can have a play with that and sign up. I'm excited. We have a closing tradition where the last guest leaves a question for the next. Is who are you most dying to meet and why? Oh that's a great one.

2:45:05 Um Right now. Is probably Brene Brown. That's probably it really the fact that you brought her up the reason why is because

2:45:20 I know that she's been in the space a long time. And I feel that When she shares Stuff. It's very genuine. Like there's no

2:45:29 Guessing that she's real. Yeah. She's about as real and raw, as authentic as you can get. She's also a long horn Texas Longhorn fan, which I'm a fan of but I feel like When this is just me personally.

2:45:42 I kinda got pushed into this field. And You l you always look for people that are your own anchors in life of who you'd want to be a mentor kind of thing. And that's somebody who's

2:45:55 I feel like is Been the the world and and know some things and has just some incredible knowledge. That's helped a lot of people. She's most certainly authentic. She's incredible. Yeah.

2:46:08 Well I listen, if people haven't bought your book, which is almost nobody, but if there are still some people out there that have haven't bought this book, I highly recommend it. I think I um included it in my W Smith collection as well. In the UK. You did. Thank you so much. Such a smash hit. Success. Uh it's a success on two dimensions. It's sales and it's impact. Thank you.

2:46:26 And um It's also incredibly accessible, so it's not like a a complicated science book, and it's written for normal people that are going through very real, relatable, normal problems. And um I think that's why it's been so successful. I think you you approach these challenges from a very real place. And maybe that's in part why it's been so wonderfully received and so relatable is because

2:46:48 You know, you're a you're trying to attorney that's bringing this stuff to the masses, but You're not like a PhD scholar who might have draw thrown up the drawbridge because they they they spent all their life in academia. And I think the way that you communicate is so relatable and resonant that It's no wonder that you're you've been on an absolute unbelievable terror over the last couple of years.

2:47:08 It's phenomenal. Like crazy, crazy incredible. So congratulations and thank you from all the people that you've given a little bit of light to. A little bit of um you've empowered them with information so that they can live the life that they um they deserve to live. That's a special thing, Jefferson. I appreciate that. Thank you, Steve. If there's anything we need, it is connection, especially in the world we're living in today. And that is exactly why we created these conversation cards. Because on this show, when I sit here with my guest and have those deep, intimate conversations, this remarkable thing happens time and time again. We feel

2:47:44 Deeply connected to each other. At the end of every episode, the guest I'm interviewing leaves a question for the next guest, and we've turned them into these. Conversation cards. And we've added these twist cards to make your conversations even more interesting. And there are so many more twists along the way with the conversation cards. This is the brand new addition, and for the first time ever, I've added to the pack this gold card, which is an exclusive question from me, but I'm only putting the gold cards in the first. Run of conversation cards. So get yours now before the limited edition goal cards are all gone. Head to the link in the description below.

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