Mickey Drexler: The Art of Selling with Retail's Merchant Prince

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/4355913d1d8b1ac5

What I do I have a photograph
In my mind.
I go into a shop
It paints a picture or it doesn't.
one bad color in a great painting that changes
throws off the whole painting.
It's like the wheels, the ugly wheels on a Mustang. And I mean that every car now is ugly wheels. I can't get over it.
You know, you see the wheels, it's like having a bad button.
on a sweater like this. This is one of the best sellers.
And if you put an ugly button on this
That's but you notice.
Yeah. And I say never give a customer
A reason not to buy something.
Welcome to the Knowledge Project. I'm your host, Shane Parrish. In a world where knowledge is power, this podcast is your toolkit for mastering the best of what other people have already figured out.
Most people think retail is about selling things. Mickey Drexler proved it's about selling dreams.
As the CEO of Gap and J Crew, he understood something profound about the American aspiration.
People don't just want clothes. They want to become someone through what they wear.
A boy from the Bronx who transformed into retail's merchant.
Prince, Draxler could walk into a room with a hundred samples and
and instantly spot the three winners because he saw what Americans wanted to become.
Before they knew it themselves.
From advising Steve Jobs on Apple's retail strategy to building old Navy from scratch, Drexler's career traces a remarkable journey of seeing opportunities that others missed.
In this conversation, he shares the insights and instincts that let him repeatedly predict and shape American taste. Whether you're building a brand, leading a team, or trying to see around corners in your own industry, you'll learn how one of the retail's greatest minds thinks about the psychology of consumer desire.
The principles of brand building and the art of knowing what people want.
Often before they do.
It's time.
To listen.
And learn.
Let's start at the beginning. You said your father was a model of what you didn't want.
He didn't fit.
Uh my job description.
Uh of what I thought a good father.
should be.
Uh
Yeah.
I didn't know what I wanted then. I didn't know
You know, when you're a kid
Like you moving all over the place. You don't know.
what's right and what's not right. You learn over time.
What was that relationship like?
Uh he was it wasn't good.
He wasn't a sensitive guy. He
had no emotion. He didn't treat my mom well, who died.
you know, she was uh had cancer the year I was born.
And um what was it like?
It was I didn't know any better.
At all.
And I thought this is what a father is like.
And over the years
I learned that this is not what a good father is like.
And he never he's was an angry, bitter guy, was not successful.
And uh
You know, he always talked he wanted to be a big shot.
So in my family he acted like a big shot with
My mom's three sisters and my seven cousins.
And by the way, the armies none of them liked him.
Because he wasn't a warm, fuzzy, nice person.
But I didn't know that when I was growing up.
How did that affect you?
I think my ambition

being the opposite of him, I think.
I always lived
In my fantasies.
Escaping where I am.
And
Peggy, my wife said, You know
Maybe that's where your creativity comes from.
I don't believe it came from that.
Because I think creativity
is part of your DNA.
And I don't think it can be taught.
So uh
But you know, it affected me.
Never took.
Any pleasure in uh
My success.
And I have he just never did.
Was there a moment when you realized he wasn't a big shot? Well, I'll tell you, it's an interesting story.
Uh
I used to work he worked
In the garment.
coat company. He w he worked
buttons. He had a kind of a low levelish job. Although I didn't want to face that.
Um
And
He um
They asked me to take
The payroll of sixteen.
He said, Take the payroll to the bank.
What do I do?
I
Duck out the freight entrance on West Thirty Seventh Street and Eighth Avenue, go into the neighboring freight entrance.
I look through all.
The pay stubs or whatever it is.
He was one of the lowest paid people.
there relative to his peer group.

That was a reality for me.
So that it was a a cold reality.
So my the thoughts of him being
Whatever disappeared then.
And as I grew
Um he
He wasn't a good
Dad. So when I lived there I was going to City College. I was miserable.
And I was you know, I squubways Laurel Railroad.
and I had an escape from the house. So I w I luckily got into I I didn't know where to apply.
State University Buffalo.
Uh
Some guy I knew when wasn't even a close friend. I got in th so I escaped to Buffalo.
And for two years.
And uh
But it was
You know.
Never took.
Any
He was competitive with me.
In an a uh ironic way.
And
You know, I was getting a lot of press when I
Yeah, I worked twelve years in the department stores.
And then I was very
Lucky fortunate
I was called to run uh
And Taylor then in nineteen eighty.
I was a young guy.
I

I don't know. I
Said okay, because I didn't know what I would do next.
After twelve years in a department stores.
I I couldn't find
the stimulation
And the
Excitement or whatever you call it.
the organizations. And I don't think they're much different.
com uh political
suck up. I I didn't know to how to articulate this.
But I think in most big companies
People are always
sucking up to their bosses.
That's my own.
experience and and these develop over time.
You know, because the boss reviews you, the boss promotes you.
I've learned over the last number of years
The best
judge of a boss.
is the person who works for the boss.
And tell me more about that. Well, it's my own
Thing I think in corporations
And well look at all the COs out there. I don't know all of them.
But um I think
Safe.
Uh they went to the right schools.
I
couldn't care less where anyone goes to school. I like to see a college degree, but I also like to see a work history.
But
If you're a safe choice in
You know, it's again.
It's an editorial on what I think people would argue if they went to a fancy school here and a fancy school there.
And now it starts and I was guilty when my son
was five years old going to a nursery school.
I didn't have any connections. I thought it was a fancy one.
It wasn't a good choice.
But um I think if you look at people
You know, like everyone all these earnings reports this
I know the
public relations people write that, they script them.
And safe?
You have a good education.
You don't want to take a risk on
Picking the wrong
Boss or senior executives.
Uh and I think there's a lot of self interested people in this world.
Plenty of them.
Why do you think we're so risk averse?
Well, I I can't answer for others.
I think
Uh
You know
Why?
I don't
I think you have to be creative to move any business forward.
Any institution.
Uh and that's what I think, and it's really based on my own personal experience.
And also
Uh in the
In the in the sector I'm in, fashion and all that.
Creative drives the engines.
And
So uh why are they risk it's a good question.
Um
They well.
Salary. They don't want to risk that.
They don't want to risk they I mean, they get very wealthy these days.
Becoming
CEO?
When you transformed the gap, you renovated
All four hundred and thirty stores at the same time.
With no focus group.
Nothing.
Oh my God. If you if you take over something.
In
You gotta get rid of the old
Merchandise because it ties up a lot of cash.
And
Don Blesses Heart.
was nervous about the earnings.
I get emotional.
Yeah, my stomach
Speaks for me a lot.
But you know, business got tough for the first year.
The stock dropped.
Probably fifty percent.
You know, I never
I I worked hard.
And I was scared after a year and I'll never forget.
We were talking about it was a year and a half we were in Carmel.
And we're sitting there, we come up with uh
Kind of a bankruptcy plan.
That's when I started to get nervous.
And I've been there a year and a half.
We d Don redid the four hundred plus stores.
I redid all the merchandise. I threw it all out and that's where he was concerned.
But you gotta take
And you gotta get the cash out of bad good, just like
Rotten fish. Yeah. Or whatever.
So
We re did
Stores. Meditieren, Yoga, joggen, nichts entspannt mich. Echt? Mich entspannt meine Steuer total. Steuer? Wie Finanzamt?
Die Steuererklärung? Ja, ich habe ganz locker über 1000 Euro zurückbekommen. Hast du geheime Connections oder Excel-Superkräfte? Nö, nur die Wieso Steuer App. Wow, und das ist einfach? Klar, die macht fast alles automatisch. Ich fühle mich plötzlich so entspannt. Hol dir dein Geld zurück. Abgabefrist 31. Juli. Was?
Schaffst du ganz entspannt, mit wieso Steuer?
Wha what?
gave you the confidence to do that.
I mean this was like a w was it we're we're basically gonna go extinct.
So that's the base case. Those two or three years.
Even when it turned around.
It was like
Uh oh.
But I worked my ass off.
I
Cap
No one taught me how to run Ann Taylor. I just did it without any supervision.
because the headquarters twenty five million dollar business.
But I just went in there day one.
And you know, corporate
A lot of people.
They leave you alone. Or they don't leave you alone.
But there I was and the the the the threat was if I don't turn this I was under pressure. I didn't make money there, they didn't pay me, I didn't negotiate, whatever, but
It is what it is.
So
Uh I always depended upon
Might.
Go ahead.
Might.
Instinct.
And in hindsight I did.
I knew
Who was
Good person?
Not a good person. I knew who was full of it.
And down to earth.
And I in the department stores twelve years.
I kept
Looking for the right
Place to go.
Y you mentioned
Uh you could tell the difference between who is a good person, who is a bad person, who knew what they were talking about, who didn't. What are the tells? How would you teach somebody to do that? You can't teach anyone.
I am a huge
Proponent.
And I never could say.
Like, Jesus, they're the president, they're the CEO, they're the this.
And
I'm thinking.
I'm not impressed.
Privately.
And I can name drop some of the
Big shots of the time.
in the retail business.
And I would say
Something like
Not a merchant?
I could tell.
And because I was a merchant.
I guess.
My first
Second day at Bloomingdale's
They put me in charge.

Byer Barber was on maternity leave.
Stan Stern, who I love dearly, he was a great boss.
I was on my own.
And I just did it.
What does it mean to be a merchant?
What it means to me
Is
And it's not a lot, I think.
It means
To have
No
No from
What's gonna sell well.
From what's not gonna maybe sell well.
Focus, make sure it's on brand. Now this is what I
Two.
No rear view mirror.
Most people do rear view mirror.
And they say, Well, we sold last year this.
Sometimes
It's gonna go this way a lot.
So you chase
What's over in post peak.
It means to me to be a merchant.
Is
having a sense
What's gonna sell?
Knowing the like I always had a
Instinct.
I guess.
On what I loved.
And I
Learned
Later on.
If I think it
It is.
non negotiable. The word that comes to mind though is like taste.
Well, that's a good question. What's the difference between Well, you know, for me
I use that word a lot.
but it's in the eyes of the beholder.
I have a friend, he's very successful. I was talking about the ugly merchandise in one of the companies he's involved with.
He said well to the customer
It's not ugly.
To me it's ugly.
Now.
I know what I know.
And I don't know where
My eye came from the
But it came from somewhere.
But taste and style.
Style?
And fair value.
And moving forward and having a vision.
Those are the key ingredients.
That I think.
Now when people say well look how good that company's doing
I said that's not what I like to do.
I like to be proud of the merchandise.
Um I like it to be
Fit.
My standards.
I don't say it that way.
Right. And I liked
I like I can always tell when something's
not on brand. I remember in some of my jobs.
I remember looking at something. It was a big tell.
And
I said, uh oh.
And I didn't follow my instinct.
And really hurt
one of the companies, you know, there's people involved.
But
Um it means to be a good merchant.
Is
You can't define it.
But you know when you know. You know it when you see it. So if if we were to like walk outside and walk in a store
And you had five minutes to like walk me through how you evaluate
The merchandise five minutes, three minutes. What would you look at?
Uh the picture painted.
Because
When I uh
It I just always
It's it's a really interesting question because
I don't know.
How to explain what I look at.
But I look at colors very important. When I did gap.
I had a list of styles.
I was trying to
start something I was looking at.
For

I always admired Ralph Lauren, but I was I couldn't afford his clothes.
He was a bronze guy ahead of me and
You know I always he was
Always set a point of view.
And uh
I
I admired him. I used to buy his clothes wholesale.
Why? Because
Uh a friend of mine's
Uh
Cousin was his secretary.
So I got it half off, whatever, but I always liked his taste, and it's still the same today.
And there's not a lot of people.
Who do that?
So it's interesting, coming back to your friend's comment about well, the customers deciding what we sell, if you're y if you're selling
If your game I guess is
To sell
the most product at the lowest prices, you're going to be selling the same thing that everybody else was selling, but you're telling me you wanted to create a different vision, one that like escaped the competition in a way.
I didn't say this is my plan.
I look for white space.
I this is in hindsight.
So
And Taylor.
was hugely successful I left if
'Cause my
bosses were bureaucrats, and I didn't like it there.
I I also was it
stage in my life where I have to
Had something I wanted to do where I could feel
um not compensated the right I was very happy with what I earned. But I face the realities of living in Manhattan.
Anyway.
I always had
Until it was
Purely instinctive.
But I
Did learn there.
That
I didn't want to sell.
Brand A B C D
And today
You can get every brand.
A discount.
And TJ Maxx, my friend there, Caroline. She's the best. You can go to TJ Maxx.
And trust.
But they're the biggest customers of most brands.
So um
So I didn't want to carry because Alexanders taught me the lesson I was
Maybe twenty five years old, and I said, Jesus
Something's wrong here.
And you know, you kinda s I'm self taught.
And then I'm also very curious.
When I joined the and Taylor Brooks brothers.
And I saw it decline dramatically then. Because
You know, no merchants running it, the quality
they would take quality out to maintain price.
But
They had a protective device.
A bad
Competitors.
They own the name.
They didn't sell wholesale. No one could take a markdown.
So what I did at Ann Taylor
Is
We did, I s you know.
I I found some
Manufacturers
Today you get your own, but
Who can make goods, we design them with them.
And we had Ann Tel Studio label.
Now no one told me to do that, but
Yeah, two too too. It's the white space. It's well, yeah, and
And then I don't have to worry about
meaning the competition. What's going on in the business today, by the way.
Is
If you look at pricing.
First of all, everything's on sale.
I always give advice when I'm on a
Whatever I say.
Before you give'em the credit card.
Google the item you want to buy.
You'll find it somewhere most of the time. Let's go back to the gap before we get to the end of the gap. So you were the CEO from ninety five to two thousand and two. How did you prevent
the bureaucracy from building up over those seven years. You know, well the bureaucracy is
I'm all over everything.
They if they
I took.
Every call from a customer.
And they'd be surprised.
About
You know.
Yeah.
And I say if I can do it
You have to do it.
You know, but t today, you know, it it doesn't always work. I tell every story, customer stories.
I would
Call customers.
If they
Anyone who called me, I got back to them.
And you know
Now I do that. It's a little bit of a payback'cause I never had anyone like that. Wha what were the key learnings from the gap? Like what are the key lessons from the game. Oh every day the key learnings
You must have a vision. You must be whatever's defined as a good merchant.
You must be
spot on and be a pain in the ass.
Uh
Because the best bosses
And I always say hired your boss.
Because that's the one.
And I never had
bosses who I thought were the best.
Especially in
Yeah, but I became the boss other than Don was my boss there.
And I had to, you know, play that game with him because
If you do what I do
And I wish you ste maybe all these other people do.
You are always competing. You have to be competing. It's relentless. And if you're not
Lotta people don't compete. I have I know friends.

The bureaucrats. I know.
Because I know them.
So
Old Navy.
Um yeah how I
You know how it started then?
It's my favorite one of my favorite stories.
So in the New York Times I used to read it when it was a decent paper.
Business.
to read about business.
Because I wanted to be who they all were.
Yeah.
And then I realised, well I didn't realise for a long time who they were, but not what I wanted to be.
So there was a little
Article
Page buried on page four five.
About
Target.
Now it was then called Dayton Hudson, very bureaucratic.
company that I I knew that they did a lot of research and a lot of this and a lot of that.
So and then someone was quoted as saying it's pretty much gonna be a cheaper version of gap.
Week the store opened, they flew out to Mall of America.
That week. I didn't even tell anyone.
But
I said, Well fuck them.
Yeah.

And I went out.
Mall of America, I walked in the store.
I was there.
No more than five minutes.
And I said.
Yeah.
To myself.
You know, you gotta you know.
Only the paranoid survive. That's interesting, right? Because it it's a story of only the paranoid survive.
Uh and it's Andy Grove is the one who wrote that book. But it's also a story of
Making sure that you're touching the medium. So when you're talking to customers, there's no filter between you and the feedback. When you're flying to the store, there's no filter, but you're you're looking at the train. Somebody's not telling you what it is. In corporations
Most of the
Brass.
They were in their ivory tower. I remember
In the department stores.
They're so far disconnected.
Go on the selling floor, speak to someone.
Plus it's decent. Yeah.
For me, I identify
with those people who aren't the fancy people.
You know, a a funny story about this uh I bought an X box for my kids. It must have been
I don't know, seven years ago for Christmas.
And we're opening it and we're setting it up on Christmas.
And I was like the person who designed this Xbox experience
Doesn't have kids.
It took an hour and a half.
To play a game.
From the time we plugged it in and turned it it's like first you gotta do updates, second you gotta sign up for all these things. Stupid is the greatest lesson. Yeah. My first week at the gap.
I put up signs.
Keep it simple, I took out the stupid. Every desk in the corporation.
People would talk a language to me.
I didn't know the language. This I'll never forget this.
She w this one woman she's in charge of whatever
Planning and something.
I didn't know what she was talking about.
And I just said keep it simple.
To the point.
You have to if you have to bring everything to its
Simplest
common denominator.
And the best way to do that is to actually use your own product.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We did the P Jim E's pajama thing, which is a really fun thing. It's gonna be very good for
Him and us long term.
And there's a
They call
A box is short.
Well, their name for it was
A short
Pajama pants.
And
And they show me
Their new version now.
It's the third.
After the pant
And the pajama set.
V
They're calling it
The long paj the short pajama pants.
Number three seller.
And they show me this thing.
that they're changing it. Now this is typical of what goes on.
And I said it's the third best seller.
You want to change it?
I said and it's called a boxer.
short. It's not called I
I I get a little
impatient a lot.
And then I do a little survey. I go around just to
I say what do you call this? It's a boxer short. When you say the word boxer short
You don't have to describe it.
It's the it is what it is.
Continue that.
And you're not doing
This
Whatever it was.
And
That's
What I do. Yeah.
And it's funny and they call things
I like to name things.
that say what it is, and I go through this all the time.
They confuse people.
I said there's certain names.
That you know
What it is.
Logical.
So what happened at the end of the gap in your tenure there? Oh well, you know Steve Jobs, uh like uh just to frame the conversation here. So Steve Jobs is on the board.
He calls you
Yeah. So w take me through this. Well Steve Jobs
Join the board.
He was recruiting me to join his board about a year. Steve was
Very seductive. He doesn't give up.
Like a lot of people do what he does.
And eak
Call me one day.
And he said, I'll join the gap board.
If you join my board
Deal.
Because I knew Steve.
Th you know, there's no such thing as an independent director.
You know.
There's a litmus test.
Not a relative, they don't do business with you.
But they ought to have on the test.
Not a close friend, not a college roommate, not a
Cousin, not whatever.
Less it's you know, if it's a
controlled company you can do what you want, but independent directors.
So I said
Didn't even think.
deal. I knew he would be
Steve.
Jobs.
He's irreverent.
He challenges things.
He might be late, but I love the guy. What what was he like as a board member?
He was a troublemaker.
Because he brought up things I'd sit there, thank God.
But he alienated people because
You know, it's okay to alienate people.
He but he didn't
He really wasn't a very
Paid attention, board member.
But
I didn't care.
So he was on the board only about a year in the yellow.
He wasn't very popular, but
I just you know guy was
Ill.
I just so admired him.
And uh
Yeah, I really admired him a lot. And Johnny I was his
lunch mate and I had you know Johnny and I became good friends.
And Steve was
Whatever. So
There's a board meeting. I knew there was something going on.

People
No all of a sudden
You know, when you have corporate
And they don't first w I never had a director who really understood.
The goods.
You know, and and you know, if they came in they didn't like the name Old Navy.
I got it off a bar in Paris.
I was driving to the airport, I was fortunately in the back seat on the left.
I'm looking at I said to Maggie.
She was in marketing. I go to power, you know, you go to shop, you get ideas creative.
So I see Marquis with a lot of neon lights.
And it says
Old Navy.
I said Maggie?
That's the name. We needed a name for old Navy, which by the way is about eleven billion dollar business today. That's the name.
They didn't like the name.
Long story short.
Two naming I don't like.
Agencies I don't like.
Consultants.
And the old Navy, by the way, that was started.
It's a whole other story. So so let's go back to the firing. So Jobs is calling you.
We had a bad year.
So Jobs was not at that board meeting.
I presented
At that board meeting.
The turnaround assortment.
Right.
Banana Republic.
Gap.
An old navy.
It's a tough year, I think, in the marketplace.
They weren't looking at me.
I get home about nine.
He says
Don just told me you're getting fired. They had it.
They had to tell him.
He said they didn't tell me until now.
Because they were worried I would tell you.
And of course.
I would tell you.
So but nine was the
Deadline they had a for whatever.
And I called Don.
Mm

Come in at eight o'clock, dot dot da. It's a board meeting the next day.
He hands me a a one note.
Whatever.
That was my last day.
So so you end up going on the Apple Board, Steve recruited you, he seduced you for over a year to join the Apple Board. Yeah, and I say that with all fondness for him.
What was
the Apple board meetings like and what contributions did you make to retail there?
Well, you know, uh I designed the first store with him.
Because he designed an ugly store.
And I we went in and I told him
Get a warehouse.
Build it.
Store.
So we can design it together. So we did a gap.
Before you open it up.
So
I went in.
It's very simple.
I said it was too
Chatke
Simple.
A screen.
To show the movie or whatever it is.
So we designed the store.
Uh and that's the store. It's still the same store too. And the stores became iconic. What's the difference between the first version and the one that we sort of Oh no but the first version never opened up.
No, but then the first version you saw, like what comparing apples and
Orange is a top. The end product, you know? We never see the messiness of the
What I do
I try to explain this.
I have a photograph.
In my mind.
It's
It's
I go into a shop.

Does it.
One bad color in a great painting on that.
big art collector. I love nice pictures, but
That changes.
throws off the whole painting.
It's like the wheels, the ugly wheels on a Mustang.
It and I mean that every car now has ugly wheels. I can't get over it.
You know, you see the wheels, it's like having a bad button.
on a sweater like this. This is one of the best sellers.
And if you put an ugly button on this
That's but you notice.
Yeah. And I say never give a customer
A reason not to buy something.
It's one of my rules.
So why do people buy, or is it they just don't have a reason not to buy?
Most people
They don't get it.
You know, the logo business.
And by the way, it's in I learned this last week.
They call it dupes. Do you know that?
All the designer copies.
are called dupes like and duplicates. Hot business today.
'Cause people say well
They don't.
Yeah, the L Vs.
Who the hell knows if it's a real or fake? Nobody knows.
Yeah. Well it's interesting'cause you you sort of
had uh
I don't want to say envy'cause that's the wrong word, but you liked Ralph Lauren.
Who had logos.
And at J Crew you did away with logos. Yeah, well Ralph had the horse.
And that was I remember I was a buyer Bloomingdales, Ralph.
Had the horse.
When he was just started.
And it was prestigious.
Right. The horse was prestigious.
with J Crew, one of the most fascinating things to me is you took
You did something that's incredibly rare in retail.
Which was you took a brand that was known for discounting.
Same with Gab.
And you made it high end.
Well,
Gap was the set was it. I don't know the early part of the
Probably.
I started there in nineteen
eighty four.
А дизастр культур і в
It was all on sale.
What what's the playbook then to take I mean they're they did it with Restoration Hardware too, there's a couple of other brands. But the base rate of success is is pretty close to zero in doing this.
Vision.
Imagination.
But
Don't have any doctor knows.
I call him doctor and I was telling you it's not gonna work.
If I look old Navy, I went out
And I did it.
It's interesting, you make decisions mostly on your gut.
Uh and research
Backing it up.
Pattern matching when you make decisions. It's funny you use that word.
The whole business is recognizing patterns.
It's
You know, this patterns
That go on.
And for me
I have to preempt.
Yeah.
And then I push the team like right now, personalization.
Uh
Two years ago.
We had painted dogs on a tote.
On a tote bag.
Eighteen of them.
That day.
Gone.
Two years ago.
I have still in the last two years.
Uh
I wanna
I want personalization to be
Uh
who what we do it personalizes the goods.
You know, so we have
Uh I don't have my bag here, but painted
Initials.
Cool.
The dogs, painted dogs.
But I'm trying to get people.
To move.
And
Yeah.
Yeah.
Is the reason that focus groups are so difficult in retail
Because no people are telling you what they want, but they actually have to be led
The they're difficult for me. Everyone else does them.
But they don't seem to work.
I don't
Or do they? I don't know. Look, I don't know. It's not
What I do for a living.
I do
I say it's to see around corners, you have to have a vision.
It's it's interesting'cause the outliers
On both
And positive and negative, don't use focus groups.
Uh, but everybody's sort of in the so it's almost like a guaranteed average in a way.
The world This is funny, a friend sends me.
twenty plus page article two weeks ago.
Talking about how average
the world is today.
I
Totally I called him, I said, Wow, you are on. He talked about cars, he talked about designs, he talked this article, he didn't write it, but
The world's average.
And the
Uh
And you have to be not average.
If you want to do what you do, you you kind of
For me, you break the rules.
But the rules are
You know, common knowledge isn't that common.
As you know, it isn't.
Uh and I'm an anti authority guy. I don't like that.
I don't like to I'll never forget when I used to work in the shipping room.
Hm.
I had an idea.
You know,
I used to check it.
You know how you see those hang tags on buttons?
So I used to walk around
Bending down with the racks of coats like this.
I took a rolling chair.
I'm going down the aisle. It was like
My father got so angry at me.
He wasn't my who knows who my boss was.
But
And that's what happens in corporations. I
No one wants to change the rules in a way. Not that he was a corporate guy.
Well, this is interest this is a fascinating sort of like nuance here because in a corporation you can't get fired for following the rules.
Uh you know, I just follow what you told me to do. So I'm absolved of all responsibility or judgment, right?
Like nobody's gonna get fired for following the rules. I mean you do at the CEO level, but aside from that, you're basically Yeah. You have to
You can follow the rules on the other hand.
You have to have a drive menu that's creative.
and can make changes. When I worked in the department stores
You know, I'll never forget I had some simple ideas.
For the
financial person. You know, none of them
They didn't ask people.
I ask people
No.
Hey no, young people don't have any baggage.
Well th this is fascinating'cause you say you're anti authority, but when you say that what I hear is
You're not anti authority. You're really a rule breaker who's constantly questioning things which comes across as anti authority. But you're vacuuming up information from every available source.
Two or three times.
I bring it to work immediately. Every weekend I have a Monday morning weekend update. What is it?
It's a m combination of me.
seeing things that are an idea.
I look through
Not that I like the fashion magazines, but
I look through every picture on
Monthly.
And if there's a picture I like.
I cut it out.
Last weekend.
It was a great picture.
It was a designer. I think it was Fendi.
Uh and they just showed the women's heads.
And they had a
Sweatshirt on.
Each of them.
In
Four.
In bright colours.
So I
Cut that out.
And I said
This
Is something we will do.
Well we are doing hooded sweatshirts.

And then I
You know, I always do detective work. I'm addicted to detective shows. Great.
Great detectives.
Some.
Cold cases.
There's such a difference. Anyway
I then
I asked someone who I know, I said, Are there any companies
We can do a collaboration with we do collaborations, we get together.
And you know, when we did it at Jake, we kind of invented it now. Everyone's they're they're all collaborating with all the famous brands. So it doesn't make it unique.
But uh anyway.
So she mentioned this company in England. I went online, looked at it.
And they had a hoodie.
Had.
A bak a lava, whatever it's called.
So I said we're gonna do that at Ca we sell a million cashmere.

Hats.
We're famous for that.
And by the way, being famous for something
drives businesses'cause you're dominant.
How much of retail do you think is theater?
Theater.
Uh
Well
Yeah, n uh Stanley Marcus Neiman Marcus.
was known for that.
I don't think it's
You know, the hardest
Supermarket in America now. You're Year One. Yeah.
I was in one.
NY

I don't call anything theater.
Theater is
Great product.
looking like a painting.
And going in for me.
I never had
Old Navy, by the way.
It was an amazing business in its day.
I had
Schwin bikes.
Around the escalator. We sold out of them very quickly.
And then the guy I knew who owned
He you know, he's an investor, not a close friend, but
Schwin decided not to sell us.
because we did weren't buying them from dealer.
But
The business first
Apparel business to hit a
Mm-hmm.
What's the number?
I think they hit a billion dollars.
First one in apparel, but now I'm sure there's many others.
But
Um
I I just follow the guidance.
Oh.
Yeah.
But I also absorb detectives. I always come in every day.
I see these fent I'm addicted to true crimes. You're always gathering information. You're always looking, you're always catching and probing.
Yeah. Which helps you develop the patterns. And I see a picture
Yeah.
Who who do you think are the great retailers today?
I don't like to name competitors but I'll tell you some.
TJ Maxx. Okay. I always named Carol.
Uh
Because Carol Marowitz
TJ Maxx is the honest discounter.
And she's a great
merchant.
The only thing is
You have to keep
Changing.
Act's the wrong word, but
You gotta keep changing and
Seeing down the road.
And I have these ideas.
But you can only do that.
If you touch.
The territory. Like when you hopped on the plane, you went to the store, when you're constantly talking to everybody, when you're getting all the information sources, that's how you rapidly adjust because you're not looking at a
Mm.
Any
Annie's
Field whether it's non profit.
Profit.
selling cars and all that. Any field product is always driving
And product is about emotion, in my opinion.
Uh someone said this the other day and I kinda took it on myself to say it.
I have a love affair.
with the companies that I've been involved with.
You know, made well.
You know what happened, how I got that name. Yeah.
So David Mollen, who's worked he's a great wash guy, unfortunately old friend
Fi ten or fifteen years ago, I was a J Crew.
Well, you know how n old Navy and the whole concept, I told ya. So David
has a logo made well
since nineteen thirty seven, he shows it to me.
was actually the logo.
He said, What do you think? I said, It's fantastic.
He said, Well, do you want to buy it?
I said if the pro Yeah, but what about you, we can
Whatever.
I bought the name.
I own the name.
And when we went public at Jake Crew
Then we did made well.
And
I had a vision.
I loved work clothes then.
Like Carhart and all that.
But I had a vision for it. But you can't do anything
Well, unless you have the right team.
So we struggled for the first three or four years.
Um, we're gonna do men's and women's, and I decided
Let's get rid of men's. Now I didn't have anyone to talk to

Other than myself.
Yeah. But I never thought about it that way.
So we got rid of men's.
And then some sec.
Cool.
is works with me and us.
Creative guy.
Was it
Um
Jake for fifteen years.
And uh
He left for a year, hired him back, and became the creative director.
of made well.
Boom boom boom.
And Madewell was a great company.
Until it wasn't.
You know, when we had a
Two billion dollar Well, don't even get me started with selling.
companies'cause the mercenaries.
And by the way, gap.
You know, when I left there I'd say that no one call me.
On the board.
Eighteen years.
Hello? Wow. Can you believe that?
Except for Steve, who didn't think you should be fired in the first place. Exactly. Exactly.
What makes something a classic look?
Yeah, it's a good question. Uh
I always say.
If you know, you know.
I wear clothes.
That have no expiration date.
This shoe.
I
found it in Paris. It's Alden, an American company.
And
I
Must have been.
Forty.
probably forty years ago was my favorite store Fasnob.
Until they were bought out by
A big
American departments, sir, then it's then it's over.
So this shoe is from Alden.
I've been wearing not this one shoe.
We used to buy from all the J Crew, and my good friend Todd Snyder.
who's a men's designer, he buys from Walden, and I asked him
About a year ago I said, Can you ask them to do a special
The show again for me.
I already ten of them.
That's awesome. I wear this and I wear another one.
This genes never go out of style.
But as long as you don't wear the big ones, the skinny ones.
These are Cashmere socks that we
started doing it J Crew.
They
Whatever. And now we
Do them.
This is close.
This scarf just
It's forty years old.
I Michael Drake.
was a good friend I used to buy from him in London.
His collection. There is a Michael Drake now, but it's not the same.
I have about twenty versions of this I bought them wholesale.
Because you know.
And this sweater.
This is
our third year
Uh
Alex Smill but
Forever.
Yeah. And it's cashmere and our prices on cashmere.
A good Oh.
I only do vintage watches.
Because I like vintage and
Uh old is new today.
Yeah. The vintage business is this way.
And it's unique, you're not like buying
You're not gonna see Well, a hooded sweatshirt.
never goes out of cell now. That's a novelty.
So
You know, I don't know if I love this idea of clothes that have no expiration date. No expiration date. No expiration date. Farnum Street the the website that I run is about knowledge that has no expiration date.
Really? So it's timeless wisdom. Timeless
And
It's
Whatever I wear.
It and it's things and I didn't didn't learn this.
Everything I buy.
Uh and it's internal to me.
Uh you know, I I don't
It's like if someone wears
Something. Oh, that's the guy with the purple shirt. Right. Or that's the car with the ugly hubcaps.
It's g I like the screen.
Yeah. I like style.
And I like a uniform.
That's what I do, and I wear the same Alex Smill.
Yes.
Slub T shirt blue every day.
Perfect.
No, I've always had a uniform.
We always end the interview with the same question, which is what does success look like to you?
I think what it looks like is couple of things.
If you can
Impact
People's lives.
I
In a positive way.
That to me
Is
The most
The best sign of success.
And of course, and if I could also
be very pleased.
with myself
That's another sign.
But I think um
The biggest compliments I get
Or
Uh from people
Yeah, we had that.
I think you knew about the gap reunion. Did you mention that to me? No.
Hundred and fifty or sixty people.
Yeah. What they are can pilot.
but who used to work with me.
And
Uh I'm
I I don't success
It's not
Being rich.
Only. It's not even being rich.
'Cause I know successful scientists or
successful whatever.
But I think it's impacting people's lives.
My biggest compliment I say this on s I've said it on CMBC.
Is
When I'm called a mensch.
You know what that word is. Mm-hmm.
Why don't you explain it for everybody so everybody knows
Is in
Yearish.
Uh Mensch is like a nice person, normal Hamishha.
Down to earth.
And um
I like and I like
Talking
Talking to people
In a
Parallel way.
And not I don't talk down to people.
Because I appreciate
who I am and what I do.
Нова ескапс.
You know, I go through certain mood issues, of course. I'm always
Trying to better myself.
But I think success is um
It's just not about money. Most people might say that.
But you have to be I'm very pleased with
What I've done.
More so over the last few years.
Because I have changed people's lives.
So I had a reunion
Two weeks ago last week.
With the um
Field
Team at
Cap.
Yeah, fifteen, twenty of us.
And they all
Thank me and they said they made their lives much better.
Yeah. And that's that's success.
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Mm