#306: Tony Spring, Chairman & CEO, Macy’s, Inc. – Hit the ground listening

0:00 Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of How Leaders Lead with David Novak. Today we have Tony Spring on the show. He's the chairman and CEO of Macy's, and it's perfect timing because they are approaching their 100th year of the iconic Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Macy's is a business with a storied history, and it's one that we can all learn from. Enjoy this conversation with David and Tony, and I'll see you at the end of the episode for the debrief. I learned that your first job was at Burger King. Uh are you still the go-to guy in the grill at your house?

0:40 I am the go to guy at uh the grill at my house, and it that was uh my first uh job. When I was sixteen, uh, I headed to Burger King with an application and Was lucky enough to get the job, and uh I have a lot of leadership lessons that I got from that first experience. What would be the number one leadership lesson that you got?

1:00 First when I showed up for the first day of work, they sent me to the parking lot. So I totally didn't understand the purpose of the first day of work. And I went and cleaned the parking lot and they explained to me That's the customer's first impression. And everyone who works at this restaurant has to understand how important a first impression is.

1:18 The second thing I learned was how even though it looked like a lot of fun. To work the fryer. It gets very hot. Get out of the fry station as quickly as possible. Learn how to work the drive thru. That's great. That's great. Get get a few more quarters in your pocket, too. You know. You know, and then uh as I understand it, you you studied uh hospitality at uh Cornell, which is which is known for for that. And you know, what's what's one lesson you learned about hospitality in in college that

1:48 you keep coming back to throughout your career. Yeah, I I left uh Burger King and had this passion for the hospitality industry. And and to your point, Cornell was in our family blood, because my grandmother and my mother And uh and my children b both went to Cornell. So I love the school. And I remember a freshman year, there was a class in food chemistry. And we went to a lab and

2:14 Every group had to make bread. But only one had the right recipe. The rest of us Didn't have yeast, had too much yeast. Needed it three times.

2:24 um was missing the right flower. And the lesson and moral of the the lab was ingredients and execution are important. to define a brand or recipe. And I use that brand recipe thing with our team all the time because all the ingredients have to be the right measure and then the execution has to be done just right. That that's a great story. And and you took over

2:46 As CEO of of Macy's in twenty twenty four, after being in the company for, you know, over thirty five years. What job or jobs, you know, prepared you the most for the CEO role? You know, I'm a generalist now. I I think the CEO has the opportunity to define the strategy based on what you learn from your consumer and what you think the marketplace uh Opportunity is You obviously have to feel the team, make sure you have the right talent in the room and around the table, diverse set of skills.

3:17 And you have to allocate capital so that you're providing a return return on investment. But I really feel like Having had the opportunity to be a merchant To be in marketing, to work in stores. To really to have exposure to all areas of the business, I know enough to ask a question about anything. I don't know enough to be a specialist anymore in anything.

3:38 Yeah, and but you you do know enough to to to know the entire business, which is a which is a huge advantage. And and you know, I I'm wondering as as you were coming up in your career. You know, a lot of times people get stereotyped. as one thing or another, like this is just a finance person, just a marketing person, just a technology person. Was there ever a time you felt like you were being unfairly pigeonholed? And i if so, how did you how did you go about changing that perception? You know, quite frankly, David, I was really fortunate to have some great mentors and sponsors along the way because I really thought I wanted to be a great merchant.

4:17 And merchants in retail tend to be big decision makers. And I was uh so excited to be a GMM of uh home furnishings at Bloomingdales, and and one day the CEO came into my office and said, I want you to Run marketing. I want you to move. And I said, Move, why would I move? I have the best job. I'm I'm so excited.

4:36 He said, I think you have the opportunity to do more in the organization. And you really need to be beyond just a merchant. You need to understand enterprise thinking. You need to understand all the facets that ultimately drive our business and attract our customers. And his push. Made me comfortable that it was the right decision and Did marketing for nine years, then moved to stores for three years, then became president for for five years before I became the CEO. So I feel like I had the perfect training ground experience because of the people cared enough about me to make sure that they showed me the ropes. And and so much is changing, Tony, in retail. I mean, it's just changing before our eyes. I mean, every day it's different, you know, and and you've been in the company for, you know,

5:15 you know, over three decades, you know, how did you come in as a CO and and and have the the the necessary fresh set of eyes, you know, the the fresh eyes to look at the problem. Yeah, I w I looked at myself as an insider outsider. So here I had thirty five years of experience at Bloomingdales, then I was moving over to Macy's. I'd already been involved. in some of the corporate strategy work. We had just completed a project of talking to over sixty thousand customers about how they felt about the Macy's brand and We learned what they loved and we learned an awful lot about what they were unhappy with.

5:51 And it gave me the opportunity to kind of bring some of my experience from Bloomingdales, respect the fact that this is a different brand. and different customer and different business, but really answer the challenge from the consumer that we were not executing, we were not creating a story told emotional experience that she was necessarily gonna convert with us from. And so It was a great forum to use and then to really Pull my team together and develop a strategy, which we call the Bold New Chapter. We're now kind of two and a half years in.

6:22 And Ultimately, it's addressing the needs of the consumer so that we not only have a right to play, we have an opportunity to win. You know, did you do anything as a as the CEO and to really let everybody know there's a new sheriff in town? You know, a lot of people I I remember talking to Jack Welch and he talked about the importance of, you know, shocking the system way as a as a new leader. Is there something that you did uh or Or not.

6:46 I brought the team together and I talked uh on a number of occasions about what my observations were. I had the opportunity to be president. and CO elect of the company for a year which is not A privilege that a lot of people get to do. So I could obviously be a decision maker as well as begin to share some of the observations that I had about. What had to change in order for us to be successful. And so I created a charter for our uh corporate strategy group.

7:13 Which basically talked about the importance of Candor in the room. Uh, making sure that we were being uh direct with each other, making sure that we respected the fact that we each had a diverse background and that we could bring something to the enterprise, that the enterprise decisions came first before our functional responsibilities. So there was plenty. But what I tried to do was uh dose it. So that it wasn't, you know, with a hammer.

7:39 It was more with the intent in trying to be instructional or educational about To be successful, we had the obligation to do the following. You know, I I I read where you said uh You told the team early on that you said we can be proud of our history, but we can't be proud of our current performance, you know. Why do you feel that needed to be said in in in and in that way?

8:01 The the history and uh The performance. Yeah, look, there are not a lot of brands that survive a hundred years, let alone over a hundred fifty years. And and I think there is a lot of our heritage. That is our heritage. It's our family tree. And we don't have to destroy that.

8:17 But we don't have to live in nineteen twenty or nineteen seventy or nineteen ninety. It's twenty twenty six. We have to show up for the customer the way she, he, they shop today. That means physically and digitally, that means in the categories that buy, that means with the right number of colleagues in our store, that means with the right care and concern when somebody goes into a fitting room, which is an extension of our sales floor, someone takes their clothes off inside our store and we're not taking care of them. So there's just I thought common courtesy and opportunities for us to modernize the way we approach the business. And if we wanted to keep executing like we had. Five years earlier, then we didn't deserve any different business result.

8:59 You know the First job of any leader and it may be the most important job every year is to just keep defining the reality that you see from your your customers perspective. You know, when when you came in into to Macy's, you know. What did you see? How did you define the reality for your team?

9:18 Well, again, I had the benefit of sixty thousand consumers, uh, with me to say We love the brand, we don't love the experience. The stores were messy. The uh brand architecture assortment was not relevant enough. There was too much redundancy, not enough variety. There were not enough people on the floor. There was not help in the fitting room.

9:39 There was not enough storytelling from the visual display standpoint. There weren't enough events in our stores. What did it take to have some animation during prom season? What did it take to make it feel like Christmas during the holiday season? So I used all of the customer feedback. I used all of the information that I had from what was working at Bloomingdales and said, This this is not complicated. It will take time. We have to do it together. We have to touch every aspect of the business. This is not where merchandise goes alone. Marketing doesn't have to do their part. Stores don't have to do their part. We had to reskin the digital business to make it На часто транзакціоний бізнес, босо та фейс.

10:19 And the first point of contact. For our brand and our business, so it was a multi prong approach. And again, I I felt the team that we had assembled was up for the challenge. And two and a half years into the strategy, I'm really pleased with the progress we're making. Yeah, that's fantastic. And you know, uh when you when you think about that customer feedback you got, was you know, I remember going out and talking to customers, sometimes you just get a gut punch, you know, was there anything that a customer ever said to you just said, Man, this is just something that kills me.

10:48 And this is something the teams really gotta respond to. So I I have to go back to my Bloomingdale's days because I love this story and I've used it with the Macy's team as as well. When I was running marketing, I was on a visit in one of our stores at Bloomingdale's. And this elderly couple came up to me because they saw a bunch of suits walking in the store and they figured we were important and they could share their Observations.

11:11 And this woman came up to me and said Yeah. Do you do you lead this company? Do something? I said, Oh, how can I how can I be your assistance? And she said, You know, everywhere I go in this store. People ask

11:22 How are you? Can I help you? But nobody waits for the answer. Here I thought I was gonna get a compliment with the everybody asked, How are you? And then we we asked, How are you? How are you? How are you? But nobody wanted to have a conversation.

11:36 And one of the adages that I use is conversation leads to conversion. In our business, not unlike the bartender at Cheers. People want to have a conversation. People want to share what's going on in their life. If you get them to open up, if you ask open-ended questions, if you begin to get to know them. You have more of an opportunity to be of service on what they're looking for. And beyond.

11:59 You know, Tony, I think you know it's it's really important. To do what you did, which was basically define reality from the customer view, but it was pretty grim. You know, there are a lot of things you had to really take action on. How did you turn the corner and give your team the optimism they needed to to really give them the sense that that we can win if we do the right things, take the right actions? Yeah, I'm a big believer, David, in the two truths. And I know you t talk about self awareness and ambition, and you have to see things as they are before you can see them as as you want them to be. I don't believe hope is a strategy, but I do believe hope has psychic reward. And how you give people a sense of possibilities, how you paint a picture.

12:39 How you tell a story. Uh, we do a podcast inside the company that I do to all of our colleagues to try to talk about Analogies. Things that can be Um, teachable moments, opportunities to think beyond today to get them excited about what's possible. And the wonderful thing about success.

12:56 Success can beget success. And we s we have some quick wins. We need to celebrate them. We need to share them so that people see what is possible. And again, you don't overpromise in the beginning. You really have to make sure people know there's work involved to get us to the place we want to be. The retail business is definitely a journey, not a destination. So we're in a continuous improvement mode, but we can stop for a moment and celebrate those things where we've made meaningful progress. recognize those things and encourage people to keep taking those steps.

13:26 How do you how do you celebrate those first downs? I mean what what's your what's your uh mode recognition? Well, we reintroduced uh recognition inside of our stores and a quarterly hospitality program. You know, we've really embraced hospitality as a part of our culture at at Macy's. And so now we do quarterly recognition inside of our stores. We reintroduced in person uh annual recognition. We're taking a moment In a theater environment to really like the Oscars, celebrate people who do distinctive work. For the customer, for the brand. I read letters that I get from customers, both the things that we do well, and I'm a big fan of the lemonade out of lemons, things that we did not get right, but boy, how wonderfully we handled. The fumble.

14:15 Tony, you're you're You've mentioned it a few times already. You're a big storyteller. I mean You you like to you like to tell stories. I learn that way. Yeah. Okay. Well w

14:25 Tell us what tell us what's behind your thinking on the stories and and how you use them. I try to take sa subjects sometimes that seem dry. Mundane. Uh, some time can be monotonous, sometimes can be repetitive, and I try to spice it up. And make sure that I'm drawing

14:43 Cultural moments, analogies, relationships with people. Cars. Food I what whatever people live in their everyday life sometimes is eas an easier leadership lesson than listening to the CEO go on and on about our service standard inside the store.

15:00 I'd rather say You know, when somebody comes to your home Do you make them open the door themselves? Or do you go open the door? Is there clothes on the floor, or do you try to clean up? So when people come into our store, which is our house.

15:14 How does it feel? Do you feel like you're entering into some place that you're looking to enjoy where people respect that you're there, that we're excited to welcome you into the party, that you're a part of what's taking place. I mean, this business is fun. It's an emotional business. We're selling things that I mean, my people don't want me to say this. You don't need all the things we sell. So we create wants out of what we're selling. It's it's an emotional connection, it's the storytelling. You you smell a fragrance and you go, Oh my God, I feel like I'm in capri. I've got to buy it. You look at a a diamond bracelet, you go, I I think I can make somebody, you know, feel like a million bucks by giving them something they've never had before. So what a great business to be in where we're

15:55 Helping people get compliments, we're helping people fall in love, we're helping people. Get their first job, uh, go to the prom. Uh have a great sweet sixteen. Every time I think we forget. That we are actually in a business about creating relationships and moments. We start to get into the transaction business, where I frankly, I don't think we can win long term.

16:16 Relationship business, emotional business. Moments business, I think we can do best. I know that for a fact that you're a big believer that the it's a lot of times that's a soft stuff. That really drives hard results. You know.

16:31 How how do you think about the soft soft stuff? And and in particular, you talk a lot about Graciousness and and and kindness. You know explain how you think about that. They don't cost any money. Last time I checked, you don't have to pay for graciousness, you don't have to pay for kindness. It's it's a it's a human trait. And and we actually all start out that way.

16:52 You know, trying to be hospitable, trying to be generous. Uh, trying to to showcase uh our manners and treat people as they want to be treated, not as we want to offer or we think. So it's it's thinking like the consumer. And I think it's going the The the slight extra mile.

17:10 Mi walking someone's packages to their car. Holding the door. Coming from behind the register and handing the bag to the consumer, calling the customer by name because you have their credit card in your hand. I mean, the simplest of things make people smile. And I know, I'm sure like you, you go into a restaurant If the waiter waitress uh refills your coffee and it's hot.

17:31 It makes you feel a certain way versus you're having to flag somebody down to get a refill. If you have to wait an extra 10 minutes for the check. So Kind of back to storytelling, I try to bring as many practical real life examples of what actually gets in the way of hospitable service and what actually brings it to life. Where you know people's eyes light up and they say almost anything is possible. And and I do believe, David, in the soft stuff because I think it complements the hard stuff. We still have to deliver our financial results. We still have quarterly expectations, we're a public company, but I think there are times where we wave the report card and we say that's the strategy. And I have to remind people, that is the report card.

18:12 The strategy and the execution. Get to the report card, not the other way around. You know, you're you're obviously a very charismatic guy, you're friendly, you know, you're engaging. It it you know, but you're still the CEO. And you know, CEOs scare the hell out of people.

18:28 Do you have a story? That you tell to l to to let people know that you're just You know, you you might have the big job, but you're you're just like everybody else. Well, I try to be uh humble. You know, again, I I I learned a long time ago, humility is not the absence of confidence or competence, but to call me by my first name, to see that I I can wear jeans

18:49 uh to to talk to people about their their lives and their families, to acknowledge when something special or something terrible happens in their lives. I mean, we we are a big family. I mean that is the nature of our businesses. We spend a lot of time together. We do a lot of work together. But we actually care about each other. And if we do that, then we're gonna care even more about the the consumer. So When I was uh starting out, I was gonna outwork everybody. I was gonna put my head down and just get stuff done.

19:19 And I remember a boss at the time saying to me You know, people can't see your heart. You know, they can see your shirt. They can see your jacket, they can see your glasses. Only you can show them your heart.

19:29 And so it was just a good reminder to me. Smiling, laughing, uh, sharing uh with uh some stories, uh, being interested about what their lives are all about. Із за смалист і кю анкетір. And how people feel at work. And and here you are, you know, now CO, you're over two years into this uh

19:51 journey that you have with your team, you know. What what signs of evidence are you getting that the culture you're trying to drive Is is really starting to take hold. Yeah, we we have multiple measures. One was our customer service scores are going up Significantly our net promoter scores have gone up every quarter.

20:10 For the last two and a half years. We're at a record high. at the Macy's, Bloomingdale's and and Blue Mercury brands. Uh we are seeing our culture poll survey, which is a survey that we have. our colleagues take sev over seventy percent of our colleagues participate in it

20:25 it's it's over s you know sixty some odd thousand people responding They feel better about the future of the company. They feel better about the people they work with, so we are trying to use measures. to then decide what tactics, what strategies to put in place to improve the experience. 'Cause the customer service score or net promoter score is a number.

20:45 It doesn't say what to do. It says what grade the consumer's giving us, would they recommend us to a friend? Then we have to say Well, we're still not getting the score we want on storytelling. We're still not delivering the service experience we think is appropriate in the restaurant, in the fitting room. We still feel like we're out of size and color.

21:02 too frequently and we correct those things. And then we see the scores go up again. Or our colleagues feel like It's hard to get some tasks done, and so we introduce AI is an element of how we make work easier to get done. So I I get I keep trying to draw back to you can do a lot of surveys if you don't respond to them.

21:22 then the colleagues or the customer loses faith in ever filling out the survey in the first place. Hello, friends. I hope you're loving this conversation. Be sure to stay tuned to the very end of the episode. As always, David and I are going to debrief some of the concepts that he talks about with this week's guest. So stay tuned to the very end, and I will see you soon. You know, when you make a ch change in a system like yours, which is huge. And it it affects so many people. Yeah, you you gotta be right that you're rolling out the right stuff. And you know, I understand you're a big fan of of pilot tests. Uh

21:55 You know, give me an example of how you How you Test something before you roll it out. So in our reimagine store program we started with fifty. Uh, so part of the announcement of the Bold New Chapter was we were gonna reduce the number of stores that were past their prime and not fit for purpose. And that we were gonna also invest in stores, put more people back into stores to try to play out.

22:18 Against the survey results to say, I think the customer is willing to spend more money. I think the customer is willing to vote more frequently for Macy's if we deliver a better experience. And so we started with fifty stores. We added another seventy five stores to get to one twenty five. We added another seventy five stores now. We're at two hundred. Sixty percent of the uh stores seventy five percent of the business we'll add more stores next year And eventually we'll have reimagined all of our stores that we're going forward with. So it didn't start with.

22:46 We have to do it only one way. We iterated along the way. So we eliminated some things from the first fifty to the next seventy five. And then finally to the two hundred. One of my favorite pieces from the puzzle. Or the recipe. is that we added empowerment.

23:02 To the last group of stores, which we did not, frankly, have in the first fifty stores. And and The example I would give is We feel like centrally we can direct everything. And we can f prescribe how to spend money, we can prescribe how to present things ideally from New York.

23:19 The reality is We can probably get seventy, seventy five percent of it right. The last twenty five percent is what makes you locally relevant, what empowers people to feel like they can move resources around to make a difference. And lo and behold, that addition of empowerment has added another layer of value to the equation. Well, I gotta ask you this one. C could you tell me about an idea that you really believed in with the you know, all the passion that you obviously have.

23:43 That that didn't survive the pilot. The one that stands out to me is the rental business that I that I tried at Bloomingdale's based on seeing rent the runway and other people go into the business. And I said, God, we have all this inventory. Why don't we go into the rental business? It'd be terrific. We can get more value out of the inventory that we have. And it too complicated. It it was basically creating a shadow business for the business we had. And a distraction for something that wasn't returning value fast enough. So we had to retire it.

24:12 But I will tell you out of that pilot. I coined for the team uh the graveyard, the garden, and the gym. And the graveyard is where I sent the rental project. The g the gar the garden. Is where you don't go to pick the fruit after you plant the seeds. So the things that you are piloting, the things that you're testing, they do not show results the next day.

24:32 And that's where we have to have a little bit of patience, a little bit of water, a little bit of tilling the soil. And then the gym is where you gotta go and work harder. At least on the ideas, at least on the communication, because you obviously believe something is right. But the results don't match what you believe. So I try to use the three Gs whenever I can with the team just again to say not everything is equal.

24:54 Some things are time to retire them. Some things you just got started, you gotta let them matriculate, and other things require your your intervention to try to make them work. Is there a particular metric, Tony, that you pay attention to that most people wouldn't ex expect would be on your radar screen? I'm known to pay attention to a a lot of metrics. Uh I I un unfortunately keep a lot of uh data in front of me.

25:20 mainly to ask questions about why Traffic, conversion, IPT, uh average unit retail. Um, the difference between our digital and physical business, the difference between our Florida and our California business. So I am one that likes to be as informed about the business as possible. And then I put it aside and say, So what do we want to do?

25:41 And how do you instill uh that What do we want to do action orientation into your organization? Because when you're big. You know, and you're you're a big retailer for sure. You know, you you can get hung up in a lot of bureaucracy and and red tape. I think it's the questions you ask. I think it's the discipline that you have around meetings. I think it's the disciplines you have around agendas and the time allocation to subjects. So We've gotten much better at

26:08 How many topics are on the agenda? How much time are we gonna spend on them? When are we gonna make a decision? Who is the decision? Owner. You know, again, I'm not a big believer in races.

26:18 But I am a big believer in meeting discipline, and that we should take a few minutes at the end of the meeting to make sure we're clear on what we've decided. We walk out of the room. Clear on what we're trying to accomplish, because a lot of times you get a lot of nods because people don't want to look like they don't know what they're talking about. And they don't agree, or they're not they're not on the same page. So we have to make sure time is too precious. We're all on the same page when we leave the room. How do you sniff out conflict? I think that's another requirement of being a leader is to suss out the person who's quiet.

26:50 David, I didn't you haven't said much on the subject. So obviously something's on your mind. Please, you know, share it with the group. The leader has to be a facilitator. And if you're a good facilitator, you not only hear the loudest person in the room, you also hear the person that's quiet that has something to offer that just needs to be called upon. You mentioned you'd had the great fortune of having some really great uh coaches and and and mentors in your in your career. Who really believed in you when you needed it the most? Mike Gould, who was the CEO of Bloomingdales, who uh preceded me and was the one who gave me multiple jobs in different uh functions and areas, always believed I had more potential than I saw in myself.

27:31 And encouraged me to Use my intellectual curiosity to show my heart. Um To to bi a present with my family. He not only gave me so much.

27:43 But I think you also considered, you know, me someone that he could give the learnings that he had in his own life to me. And wanted to make sure that I benefited from those experiences. Do you have a process that you use or or to to to keep uh a look out on the up and coming stars. We do uh coffee uh round tables.

28:05 uh in the organization When we do uh our talent uh process uh twice a year, we we look at the entire uh leadership team throughout uh all the organizations to kind of know who's on the radar. I spend time with our interns during the summer. I spend time with our executive trainees when they join the company. I try to meet every new person that comes into the company as a part of their onboarding. Uh, and then stay abreast of in my touch bases with my direct reports who's on your radar that I should know about. What's going on in the organization.

28:37 uh that's uh kind of spiking up from a talent standpoint that we wanna make sure that uh you know we're utilizing. I've talked to a number of of of leaders who who have a list that they keep in their drawer of like the you know five to ten people that they think don't They can't miss. And they and they really try to give them extra attention. Do you do you do anything like that or do you just Try to just

28:58 mine the field and and And uh You know, get other people involved. I probably know the five to ten, but I feel like it's not enough in a company of our size and scale. So I really try to mine the field as much as I can. Like we'll be going to a market. I'll go to the Southern California market and during the travel time in cars between stores, I'll be, you know Asking lots of who's who's top of the list, who's doing best, what are you most excited about, who needs additional support, what kind of feedback have we given them? So I I try to use the transportation time.

29:31 To learn as much as I can when I'm out in the field. And then you know, in the central offices, it's it's it's walking the hallways, it's asking questions, it's inviting people. I asked Bring someone to your touch base. Bring one or two people. I'd love to spend more time with your team. So it isn't just a presentation, isn't just a conversation, it's also an opportunity to learn more about the function. You know, leaders cast a shadow and and you know the

29:55 the rest of the team usually follows. What's something that you do on purpose because you know the whole company is watching. And and Taking note of what you're doing. I try to, so I don't want to say that I do because I think it's conceded, but I try to ask open ended questions. I I try to make fewer declarative statements.

30:17 Because I'm a big believer in you know, curiosity and intellectual uh curiosity and and and querying that that there's so much to be learned beyond school. that happens at work, that happens in technology, that happens in cultural moments, that if we're curious about what who was wearing at the Oscars, and we want to know, you know, what who's selling the movie uh box office last weekend was incredible. And wow, is Hollywood back? And why did that happen? And There's so much to be learned if you ask questions. And and I think it's again another lever that's available to everyone.

30:52 Is that the number one behavior you're trying to drive deep in your culture? I think collaboration would be the other one. Yes, cur curiosity and open mindedness. So beyond leading your function, you also have to be kind of a feeder for your function, asking other people for a perspective. I I love the book, uh From uh Pixar Imagine. Where you know they

31:13 You're gonna make the movie as the the writer and the director and the producer, but that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to get feedback from other people. So I think how you take information is really important. The team will hear me say time again. I am very open. To um the the the sceptic. I I am not

31:34 To the Cynic. So there's a difference to me between someone who has some great sage advice. Some you know, clear minded uh opinion that is different than mine. And then there's someone who's trying to sandbag or hurt something. And that I'm less interested in, less I have I've less tolerance for. That's interesting because I I I was gonna think that one of the c things culturally you would be important to you, and I'm sure it is.

31:58 Is The positive energy. Because you you have a lot of it. I was gonna ask you. How do you handle a cynic?

32:07 You know How long do you put up with it? I I I hope uh less and less time. You know, again, I I think you you don't you don't want to close the board close the door to the person that is giving you uh devil's advocate and and and playing uh the role of giving you uh the alternative point of view. That to me is so different.

32:28 Than someone who is just constantly bringing the group down and is trying to figure out how not to do something. So I have to take responsibility as the leader. And to make sure that we're sussing it out and we're challenging people to I It it's not naively positive. I it's not a Pollyanish thing. We are trying to deliver a business. Based on gracious hospitality. We're trying to deliver a business where the customer is enjoying what they're doing with us.

32:55 We have to then lead from the heart. with that intentionality across the organization You know I want to take you back now, Tony, for for a second, if you will. You know, growing up, uh what's the story that shaped the kind of leader that you are today? Oh, I I think

33:12 You know, having uh parents that uh cared about me. My father was a lawyer, my mother was uh uh a homemaker. She went back to work eventually as a real estate uh broker. But you know, they supported both my brother and I in whatever we wanted to do. uh I w with upper middle class uh upbringing. So I I felt very supported and uh And when I found my passion, I found my passion. I I think my father did say to me

33:39 You need to go to college because I think at one point I was going to stay working at that Burger King. Um and he said, I think I I think you should try college first. You can always go back to Burger King. Do you ever have a moment where you still feel like a kid? It's amazing when you're a a kid at heart. I mean I I still go into a candy store and get excited. And then I think, what am I doing with all this candy? I'm not gonna eat this stuff. But it I mean what The thing I love about children

34:06 Is the is the insatiable open mindedness, imagination that I'm a big believer is you you can hear in creativity and the importance of trying to bring something different than just price to the equation. And children have this in wonderful moment where they are not jaded by anything yet. They have not learned that they shouldn't say something that someone's gonna correct them for. Well, one of the things I did as a kid

34:33 And I still do it every every year is I I just love the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. Which I think he turned a hundred years uh this is the hundredth parade, not the hundredth year,'cause we took a few years off for World War Two. Okay, all right. It's well tell me a behind the scenes story about the parade that Most people probably never heard. It's an incredible magical moment.

34:58 For the country. Uh, where over thirty million people tune in and several million people come live in New York City. To see something that people spend almost a year. Producing. And when I say producing

35:11 Uh building. The floats. Building the balloons. Uh making uh costumes Uh creating a television program and deciding what acts are gonna go during what hour.

35:25 Uh two thousand cans of paint, four thousand five hundred different costumes. I Seventy foot balloons uh wide and tall. I It the amount of work is

35:38 Unconscionable the number of permitts. That we need to get in New York City the amount of hours before Five AM on the morning of Thanksgiving. The team has to work to kinda orchestrate. From the Lincoln Tunnel all the way to the parade route. Is

35:54 A um It's a magical moment and it's a a labor of love and it's one that I have so much respect after spending time with our welders and our craftsmen and our uh artists in our parade studio in New Jersey. They are incredibly talented. What's the day like for you as a CEO, the Macy's Day Parade? What's that like? Wha what do you do? We do a little press.

36:17 We do a little kind of breakfast with our team, kind of a, you know, before the locker room kind of game day talk. Then we go down. And visit with our friends at the Today Show. And then I sit with uh my wife and and some friends and and we watch the parade and we cheer. As loud as possible. Yeah, awesome. And y you know, the this summer

36:38 Uh I read where you you in the big red shopping bag sign came down at Macy's. It's your b you know, your big New York store. What was the reaction?'Cause I'm curious, ca you know,'cause you're here you are, you're trying to Modernize the brand. you know, create loyal customers.

36:56 What was the reaction to that and and how'd you make that decision? Well, it it isn't our decision. You know, we don't own that building. So there are two small buildings as a part of the uh full square block of uh Herald Square that we don't own. That's one of them. And so the people that own the building have had a A sign there that we've advertised on for years. They decided they wanted to take the sign down and put up an electronic billboard. And so You know, it's it's like the passing of time. I I'm one of the few people that still reads a newspaper, even though I do uh read the Times and the Journal digitally, but things change. And so like an electronic sign replacing a uh a poster board sign. Change happens. It's a nostalgic moment. We'll get a little piece of the sign and put it in our archives to go with.

37:44 Many of the other things that are part of the Hundred and sixty Some odd storied years of Macy's. You know, and you mentioned earlier that you have this your own podcast. Uh you know T Tell me about it and and and tell me about somebody you've you've interviewed that you you you really learned a lot from as you did it.

38:05 I interview people inside the company. I interview people uh outside the company. I what I try to do again is share the story behind the story. Little bit like what you're doing today on on on leadership. So it's everything from The making of the Thanksgiving Day parade. A one-on-one conversation between me and the CEO of Ralph Lauren, or me and the CEO of Levi's, or me and one of our board members.

38:30 Or me going to our supply chain center. Or mi visiting a store. Or me talking to our merchant team about how we put together assortments and what it's like to um decide on our our cashmere strategy for this year. So it it's a diverse mix of uh subjects. designed around the feedback we've had from our colleagues about what they want to learn more about. Was there one particular uh interview that really had a huge impact on you?

38:59 Well, there are there are two. Um the f I the first one I did My son interviewed me. So that that was uh That was hard. Because I didn't control the questions and uh I think the audience did find it

39:14 To back to our conversation about how do people know I'm a really a human being? How do they know that I put one sock on at a time? My son made sure they knew. Uh, and the second thing I do is I have a leadership coach who I spend time with uh every week. And I had my leadership coach uh interviewing me. And it was so good we made it into two episodes. Because he got me to peel back the onion even further.

39:38 Oh, that's great. You know, and and what's the biggest thing you've uncovered working with him? He's a big believer in Responsibility. And the idea that we have the ability to respond. Not responsibility that we all have a lot on our plate.

39:53 And this idea that we have agency And that you know so much is How we choose to bring ourselves to a conversation, how we are. aware of the moods and the attitudes of people that come into a meeting. Somebody just, you know, lost their dog. Somebody is running late because their child is sick at home. It's like everybody brings something into the room. If you step back for a second and are aware

40:19 You can help the room. Бі морпроктив, ю юсел. can be more effective, and I I think he's, you know. Done a great job with me on both self-awareness and in helping the team practice the Art of responsibility the ability to respond.

40:34 You should feel everything. You don't have to say everything. You know. Huh. Say more on that. I uh the the feeling versus saying. That that's interesting. Well, w part of his model is a suppression is a very unhealthy thing.

40:51 And a lot of times we hold back and you know Uh, you know, my dad could get upset. He would uh wait till something, you know, really, really bothered him, and then he would be very hostile. And I think what my coaches taught me is Make sure you feel when you feel.

41:05 And then you decide based on audience appropriate. What you want to say. But don't miss the opportunity because if you don't feel it, you're pushing it down and ultimately it's gonna come back out in some way, shape, or form that is not necessarily you at your best. Shifting back to the to to the business in your in your strategies, you mentioned AI uh AI a little bit earlier. Uh, you know, how are you leading uh from that front? So I I'm a big believer in the importance of uh humanity and technology. So I'm gonna tell you it's and not an or.

41:37 And so we have a uh AI program that supports the bold new chapter. We don't have an AI strategy. We have a bold new chapter strategy that is powered by our belief in the importance of uh AI. We divide it into three segments. We have uh Yeah, probably over now a hundred different proof of concepts, some that have to be retired, some that have to be scaled, but they're basically a third, a third, a third, David. A third that are revenue generating, a third that are designed to make it easier for our customers or easier for our colleagues, and then a third that are focused on efficiency. And how quickly we can do things.

42:14 With less money. How are you using AI to help you do your job better? You know, I I'm I'm putting uh speeches uh into AI. I'm uh using an AI coach. That we also rolled out to our leaders. As a pilot this year.

42:31 Um, just to see the difference in terms of You know Things that you want to have a conversation with a direct report. Uh the AI coach can kinda take on the persona. And help you kind of refine the language you might want to use. And well, lo and behold, the conversation's far more effective. So that's certainly one way.

42:49 I'm using it to try to refine my messaging to my to my team. Uh you know, just going through uh working on some uh feedback uh forms and and I I start because I don't like to turn over the entire thing to A I but I then give prompts and and get to a place where I think the

43:08 Content is frankly better. A lot of people that I talk to that are maximizing AI they They really believe that in their culture. Uh They're gonna have to teach people how to ask better questions.

43:20 Yeah, Yeah, you know, what's your thinking on that? I agree a hundred percent. You know I and by the way Shouldn't we have been doing that all along?

43:29 So you know, great questions lead to really interesting answers. And as a reporter, as someone who does a podcast, if you don't ask the question, it's really hard then to get an answer. So I think prompts are just another way for us to return to being Better communicators. And I you know, I know uh We each experience something different during the pandemic. The thing that that

43:52 was the hardest, I think, on not only our business, but our people was the loss of human connection. And I think we are still trying to navigate the I want to have a life. And I want to embrace the flexibility that technology and shopping at home and uh virtual reality, and there's so many things that we can do. But nothing replaces

44:15 Being with someone you love, going someplace you love, eating something you love. And so how does then the use of tools help me to do more of that? How does it help me to change my time allocation? You're you're right on it. And this has been so much fun. You know, I've learned learned a lot just from this conversation. And I want to have a little bit more fun with my lightning round of questions here. So are you ready for this? I am ready. The three words

44:39 Your team would use to describe you. Passionate. Curious And Open.

44:47 If you could be one person for a day beside yourself, who would it be? Abraham Lincoln. Your biggest pet peeves. People that talk over other people. Who would play you in a movie?

44:58 I've had people joke and tell me It could be Rob Lowe on the positive side, it could be Rick Moranis on people who are being sarcastic. What's a habit you have? There's been instrumental to the success that you've had.

45:12 I'm pretty good at time management. The best Broadway show you've seen in the past couple years. Well, I'm on the board of Lincoln Center Theater, so I have to plug a ragtime, which just won some Tonies, and that was quite uh amazing. Your favorite restaurant New York City when we go there. That is really tough too. Uh my favorite restaurant in New York City is uh Hutong.

45:35 Uh a Chinese restaurant up town. What's something you've been curious about lately that has absolutely nothing to do with work? I'm constantly curious about politics. So I can talk less about politics at work. I can barely talk about it at home, but I am very curious about where the world is going. The the one thing you that you do just for you. Uh play games, read.

45:59 You know, I I I like escape time. So I I I will find that uh isolation moment. It doesn't have to be long, but I like to do something by myself. Besides your family and friends, what's your most prized possession? I was honored by the American Jew Committee and I have uh original copy of uh Winston Churchill. Uh book.

46:21 If I turned on the radio in your car What would I hear? Well, you probably used to hear Howard Stern when I was driving. I'm not driving anymore. So now it could be the news, I don't know, uh the News eight eighty in New York or I could be listening to CNN or Fox News. That's another one of my habits is I do like to listen to everybody.

46:39 So I'm not jaded by one Definition. What's something about you that few people would know? I eat ice cream every night. That is true. But I've told I've told the team that it is a vice that I am having trouble giving up.

46:53 Um, certainly as my cholesterol went up and as my weight has gained gained. But I feel like You know, God, one life ice cream is so good. How can I not have it every day? Well, I think you just answered my last question in the lightning round was what's one of your daily rituals, something that you never miss. Ice cream. Alden's ice cream. I have to plug Alden's

47:16 Yeah, that that's great. Okay, we're out of the lightning, Ren. Just a few more questions here and I'll I'll let you go. You know, how how do you think about leadership at home, Tony? Look, I I am very fortunate to have an incredible wife. uh who is not only a great uh mother, uh great wife, but great sounding board. So she will be

47:37 Um A a source of uh inspiration for me, she'll be a source of calm for me. And she's done an amazing job uh helping raise our two uh two boys. I I'm very proud of both of them. Uh and

47:52 I she reminded me that I could do anything, but I can't do everything. So I I I was at Almost every concert at every parent teacher night. at many of their ball games I sometimes came with mail, I'll admit it.

48:08 Um but Uh, I was paying attention most of the time, but no, I will seriously say to my team, you you can't do everything. And you have to be honest, if you're if you're really all in, you can't do everything. But you can do anything. And if if parent teacher night is important, if being there when your first day of school, if uh you've got an issue at home, we need to show greater flexibility to let people be successful in life in the fullest sense of the word.

48:33 But you also have to be honest as the leader as the individual. You can't be in two places at one time. What has your family taught you about leadership that Macy's never could? Was it that? Oh, I I you don't control everything. I mean, I I I I think again when I started out, I was like gonna work and gonna do and and as I rose in in responsibility and leadership, then I had and uh I was directing more people and more strategy and and people would listen to what I said. Like No.

49:00 You just you maybe have a louder voice, you have a different series of initials next to your name, but Everybody comes to the table with a personality, with a point of view, uh, with ideas and My kids Did not always listen to my advice. Uh, sometimes they completely ignored what I had to say. So it was a good lesson for what leadership was like at work. What do you see, Tony, as your unfinished business, not only at Macy's, but for yourself personally?

49:26 I obviously want to make sure that Macy's best days are still ahead of us. Macy's Inc., Macy's Bloomingdale's Blue Mercury is an incredible retail franchise. If I didn't own the stock, I'd buy the stock. If I didn't work for the company, I'd want to work for the company. It's a place where you can go from being a colleague on the sales floor. To running the company one day. That's the opportunity. I want to make sure that this business is around to support many, many, many more generations to come. It thrills me to see the number of people that come to us when a baby is born. The number of people that come to us for a prom dress, the number of people that come to us to buy a watch because

50:05 They want an analog watch now, uh, for graduation. It's a wonderful feeling, but I want you know, relevancy is a funny thing. You you have to be relevant in the time frame you're in. So if I was selling black and white TVs, I wouldn't be very relevant today. So you you really got to keep re-examining your assortments, making sure you're doing everything that's necessary, that people are what people are wearing, how they're acting, how they're living, what their homes look like. That's gonna ensure. our greatest and our brightest future and then

50:34 Personally, I want to make sure that I'm I'm giving back. So whether it's the boards that I'm on with Lincoln Center. Or with the NRF or retail federation uh foundation or the hospital of special surgery here in New York. Or You know, my son was diagnosed with juvenile diabetes when he was was seven. And and I was on the uh

50:51 juvenile diabetes board for, you know, twenty five years. I I wanna make sure that I'm doing what I can. With the position that I have. To give back To the next generation. to to give back to people that are

51:03 На май. That's great. You know, and um speaking of diabetes, my my late wife was a type one diabetic and We have the Wendy Novak Diabetes Institute in Louisville and we're We're trying to do everything we can to find a cure and help people. uh deal with pregnancy and deal with sports and uh

51:23 But you know, we've we've made a lot of progress, but there's more to be made. So thank you for everything you're doing on that front as well. No, thank you for doing your part too. Again, it it's it's one day, one step closer. And and people sometimes don't realize that you're live with type you're living with diabetes. It is not there's no cure. And there is a daily regimen that you're describing between what you eat, the exercise, and the insulin you take that isn't Thank God there is a a pump today and and more uh science. But it's not easy for those k those people, not just kids. Absolutely. And uh, you know, I I always say when it comes to diabetes, you you you never get a day off. And uh you know what I'm talking about there. Uh all right, last question here. Uh what's one piece of advice you'd give to anyone

52:08 Who who wants to be a better leader. Two ears, one mouth. My the the line I give to everybody is hit the ground listening. When you join our company, everybody is telling people to hit the ground running. I'm like, do not, I'll cut your legs off. Hit the ground listening. Honeymoons come once. You wanna learn.

52:26 This is your time. No one's expecting anything. You actually have the clearest view. When you come into the company And by the way, the clearest view means you don't have the right answer because you don't know enough, and you see things that we've stopped seeing. Keep a little journal. So hit the ground listening.

52:42 I love it. I love it. Well, I I have to tell you, Tony, I'm I've been very inspired by this conversation. I I really believe positive energy lifts you up. And you've got a lot of it, and I'm I'm sure people love working with you. So thanks for taking the time to be on the show. Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun. David, when that conversation ended, you said, Wow, he has a lot of positive energy. And it's so true what you said. His positive energy has really lifted me up. It's so it's so refreshing to have somebody. Uh, with such positive energy, just come in and and have a great conversation. That was awesome. Well, he loves his job, he loves his people, he loves the the brands and uh

53:24 You know, he wants to make a difference, you know, at at uh at Macy's and and and in the world, which is which is terrific. I like we do every conversation, David, am excited to get your thoughts on some of the key things and and topics that just really stood out to me. Um, throughout this conversation with you and Tony, the first one is that thought that he shared at the very end of the episode. He tells his employees to hit the ground listening. when they start their career at Macy's, and I just love that. I like that it's a play on that phrase we always hear, hit the ground running, but it really reinforces the importance.

53:59 Uh having two ears and one mouth. What did you like about that? Oh, I loved it because you know, you need to listen before you run. You know, and and I think uh every every leader needs to recognize when you take on a new role. you've got the opportunity to to to have fresh eyes and the the best way to get the best insights is to is to truly listen.

54:21 And y you know, I've I've had people give me advice and I give others the same advice that you really need to develop a ninety day plan. You know, when you take on a new job. Th that you use ninety days to really listen and understand what the heck's going on. before you sit down at the piano and and write out the the the song. And uh You know, so I I think he's right on there.

54:46 You talk about David doing that listening tour. What are some of your favorite go to questions that you tell people to ask during those first 90 days to really get the full picture of what's going on in the business. I always says What are you hearing from customers? Okay.

55:02 Uh What do you think we should be doing that we're not doing? And one thing I always asked was uh What do you think I need to do? I mean, how can I best support you?

55:13 And I I found that when you're in the positions of power More than once. Okay, so when you ask

55:24 somebody what they would do if if they were you, they'll usually say nothing. Okay. So ask it again, they'll usually say nothing and then ask it another time and they'll probably begin to give you a an an idea or two that maybe you you really need to need to hear so I think you you really, really Must let people know.

55:43 that you want to hear from them. Okay. And I I along those lines I like the fact that uh He differentiated between a skeptic or someone who has uh wise counsel based on experience. Versus a cynic. Who's who's basically trying to derail whatever you you have going along. And uh

56:02 So I I think uh he he's really got a good handle on on on the importance of uh of of listening and and and and and and understanding and being curious. Yeah. I agree. Another thing that really stood out to me was the part of the conversation where he talked about Feeling everything.

56:20 Not saying everything. And I love that because it kind of plays into what we talk about a lot on this show, which is the important of self awareness the importance of self awareness and how you respond in situations real time. What stood out to you about that discussion, David? Well, Yeah, I think it's a Interesting way to think about.

56:39 you know, the how you should interact with with others is that Yeah. You you need to Share your feelings when you feel them. Don't don't bottle them up.

56:51 Don't wait and wait and wait and then have this huge eruption. But you know When you feel something. Let your team know what you're feeling. Okay.

57:03 And and so so that you can address it. Together. And you know, a lot of times people think about what they need to say, but they don't really think about how they're feeling. And and and how they need to convey that message. And

57:18 I think when you share your feelings. You do what everybody is talking about is a major trait in successful leaders is that you you You open up, you're vulnerable. You're an open book.

57:30 And you know, I think being an open book is is is really powerful. And i as a leader. You just don't you know, have to have all the answers all the time and talk all the time and say this and say that, you know. You can be honest and share the feelings that you have.

57:46 I like that he shared too, you know, sometimes in situations you feel really charged about something, and it kind of takes a second to cool off and really figure out how you want to communicate what you're feeling to your team. So What I love about that is that it says to people that it's okay to take a second. And to calm down and to really understand how you can communicate what you're feeling in a way that'll be. most effective for whatever you're trying to do. And I'm curious, David, if there's a time in your career where You know, you're faced with a lot of pressure, and you might have not agreed with somebody, and your first instinct was to just say everything that was on your on your mind. How do you manage?

58:27 That stress in scenarios like that. I think that's one of the things I struggle with. I'm a high feeling person. So if if if I'm feeling something, it's very hard for me to not talk not share it.

58:40 Okay. And you know I think I needed the and have learned how to and need to continue to think about. How to temper

58:50 Temper my feelings. I was recently in a meeting Where You know, I I felt like the team wasn't being acknowledged enough for the tremendous progress that that that they'd made.

59:02 And you know. That That feeling came out. You know. Uh through

59:09 you know, me saying how I truly felt about it. Which I think generated a lot of respect and because of my honesty. And and it opened up a few few people's uh eyes, uh But I have to tell you when I look back at it

59:25 I think I could have done it better because, you know I got a little bit too emotional. Okay, you know, used language that maybe I shouldn't have used. But but but but easy to do. But but I made the point. And uh I think the fact that I did

59:39 And the fact I've always done that. has been one of the things that's made me Yeah. an effective leader because people No, they what what you what they see is what they get.

59:49 Absolutely. It's so refreshing. At least part of the time, cooler. At least part of the time. Um I'm not saying of effective all the time, but I do try. It is so refreshing to be in a in an environment where you never have to guess how the other person feels or what they're thinking. So Um David, another theme that stood out to me is Tony's

1:00:08 You know, obsession with hospitality. He talked about being at Cornell and their hospitality school and how he tries to weave that. Into the company that he's leading at Macy's. I'm curious, as a leader, I mean, you were in the food industry, but As as leaders of really any industry, how should we be thinking about hospitality and and how to weave that into our interactions with our customers? I think take pride in whatever you be you're a part of. And and I love his uh

1:00:39 analogy of Think about what you're doing as your home. Okay. You know. Do you welcome people when they come to your home?

1:00:47 Is your house cleaned up when they come? Do you you know, i is this something that you take care of or not? Is this something you constantly want to improve? Keep up the date. Yeah.

1:01:00 I I think that That home visual. Or home story. uh i is one that works for for any business. So take pride uh take pride of home ownership in whatever business you're in.

1:01:12 Yeah. I love the example that he shared around uh The feedback he got from customers saying that the dressing rooms just were messy and they didn't like going in there and Um He talked about

1:01:24 Like if the dressing rooms where they're looking at the items that they want to purchase aren't in good condition, then they're not going to be willing to purchase the thing that they're trying on. And he talked about how he led his team through enhancing that experience. And he mentioned that You know, conversation leads to conversion. So I just love that little thought around, you know, if you're interacting with a customer. It's really easy to not start a conversation, but it's also really easy to start a conversation. And usually that leads to a great experience overall, and hopefully. For your business a conversion. And I just love that little tidbit. I mean, I'll think about

1:01:57 You know, our customers be Listeners of the podcast, we don't interact with them face to face, but uh it's an interesting thing to think about. You know, how could we start conversation with them so that they uh become more engage with the content that we're pushing out. I just love that little that little phrase. Well, Dale Carnegie who's

1:02:17 You know The greatest salesman that ever lived. uh you know said the best way to to to to really You know, make a sale is to get people to talk about themselves. And so if you're actually showing interest in other people.

1:02:33 They'll take an interest in you. And you know, I think that's what he means about, you know. having that having that relationship and and that's why he thinks hospitality is so important. It's it's that you know when you get out the credit card he talked about you they the somebody hands you the credit book card, you see their name. So you say, Hey, thank you, Cool. I really appreciate you spending that two thousand dollars on that dress. So that's really nice of you. Can I buy can I get you can can I show you another one? Uh unfortunately the answer to that question is usually like yes when I'm asked it. So Somebody's doing a good job of being hospitable at the checkout.

1:03:11 Uh great. Well I think in the end here. There were a lot of great insights in this podcast, but You know, hit the ground listening is terrific. Feel everything. You know, share your feelings.

1:03:21 Yeah, you know, don't just talk, but share share your feelings and why. And then You know Think about hospitality. Take take pride in homeownership and whatever business that you have. I think those are are are three really good takeaways that that uh uh any anyone can walk away with and and use from this conversation. I love it. Well, David, thank you so much for another episode of How Leaders Lead. Thank you, Tony Spring, for joining us and sharing your insights with our listeners. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to How Leaders Lead. We will see you next week.

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