#751: Elizabeth Gilbert and Jack Kornfield

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4:57 At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. And then also the post no question. No se A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal empty. Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris Show, where it is my job to sit down with world class performers. From every field imaginable to tease out the habits.

5:30 routines, favorite books, and so on that you can apply. And test in your own lives. This episode is a two for one, and that's because the podcast recently hit its tenth year anniversary, which is insane to think about. And past one billion downloads.

5:47 I've curated some of the best of the best, some of my favourites. From more than seven hundred episodes over the last decade. I could not be more excited. To give you these super combo episodes, and internally we've been calling these The super combo episodes.

6:01 Because my goal is to encourage you to, yes, enjoy the household names, the super famous folks. But to also introduce you to lesser known people I consider Stars. These are people who have transformed my life and I feel like they can do the same for many of you. Perhaps

6:17 They got lost in a busy news cycle, perhaps you missed an episode. Just trust me on this one, we went to great pains to put these pairings together. And for the bios of all guests. You can find that and more at Tim.blog slash. Combo.

6:33 And now, without further ado. Please enjoy. And thank you. For listening. First up

6:39 Elizabeth Gilbert The number one New York Times bestselling author of ten books. Including Eat pray love And big magic.

6:49 Creative living beyond fear. Which together have sold more than twenty five million copies worldwide. And her latest book. City of girls. You can find Elizabeth on Twitter.

7:00 At Gilbert Liz. I thought I would begin. With The Alpha Wolf. If you don't mind. For those who don't know, this is a moth

7:11 Talk slash presentation story. Slash tear jerker. Slash laugh out loud at moments. Tail. And

7:22 I saw that Ray's birthday. Her sixtieth birthday. was just a few days ago. Could you speak to

7:32 who Rhea was, a little bit of context, and then how to how you prepared for that. There's Quite literally nothing I would rather talk about than race. So you started

7:44 In a good place for me. So Raya Elias was quite simply the love of my life. We're

7:53 friends for seventeen years. I was married for most of that. And just very slowly and very quietly over the years fell in love with her. She was a lesbian Syrian

8:09 Detroit raised rock and roll. hairdresser, filmmaker, author musician who had always wanted to live just right on the edge of life. She had been a speedball heroin junkie on the lower east side, New York City in the nineteen eighties. was in Rikers Island, was in Bellevue, was in various rehabs and rehabilitations was homeless, was

8:33 Oh God, she'd had such a storied life, and then she finally put it all down and she spent nineteen years clean and sober. And when I met her, she was on the other side of that recovery and she was The strongest, most extraordinary person I ever met. And as I said in that speech that I gave in that talk that I gave at the moth about her. Which I shared a year after she died. She was the most powerful person in every room that she ever walked into.

8:58 And I adored her. She was my guide. She was my teacher. She was the rock, the ground underneath my feet. She was the one person in the world who always made me feel safe, and she didn't just make me feel safe. The feeling that everyone had when Ray walked into the room Was Oh, thank God, Ray is here. Everybody is safe.

9:18 You know, that's what the alpha is, right? The alpha is the person who keeps the entire pack safe. And because she was the most powerful person in the room. What I always knew when she walked in was not only would she make sure I was okay. If anybody was preying on me in any way. She would make sure the predator was okay too.

9:38 Like she had everybody under her wing to make sure that people were all right. You know, um, she just had this way of handling humans. Like nothing I've ever seen in my entire life. And I absolutely adored her and I was a loyal wife and I loved my husband and The three of us were really good friends and there was no way in the world that I was ever gonna cross that line. I just kept that love very quietly in my heart. And we all

10:03 just had a beautiful life together until the day that she was diagnosed with terminal pancreatic and liver cancer. And I got a phall from her saying that she'd gotten this diagnosis and that they said she had six months to live. And from that point forward, it was no longer possible for me to keep that love hidden and Very swiftly after that. I had a conversation with my husband and said, I need to go and be with Rea.

10:25 And No one was surprised at this. He wasn't surprised by it. He'd seen it for years and he very in one of the greatest acts of courage and dignity I've ever seen anybody do, he very graciously stepped out of the way and We separated and I went to be with her and I was with her until the end of her life. So

10:44 That's who Raya was, and that's who she was to me. As for that speech that I gave it to Moth. That talk. What I was challenged to do In twelve minutes.

10:55 was to try to get over the net who that person was, the most epic human being I'd ever met. And I decided the way to do that was to tell a few stories about the experience of her death and dying. Which were mostly based on ideas that I had about how she was going to become very helpless and I was going to have to be her hero and protect her. versus the reality of the situation.

11:18 Which is that she never became helpless. She remained the alpha. in the entire situation, she was a really hard patient to take care of for that reason. She absolutely refused to cooperate with my version of some airy fairy soft hippie dab that that I wanted to And instead of the She died the way she lived, like the badass fears.

11:40 unrelenting warrior that she was and it was brutal and it was Beautiful and she never stopped taking us by surprise right even up till the last second. And the point is gonna come where that truth is gonna become bigger than your plans. And that extended into the way that I tried to manage, I'm using air quotes now. managed Ray's death. I also went into her death with a plan.

12:02 We're gonna have an enlightened death, we're gonna have a a real hospice death, we're gonna bring grief Bereavement experts in here to talk I mean, I laugh now because it's like you know, just Rhea, like who is such a biker chick, it's like you're gonna bring a fucking grief bereavement expert in here? Like To talk to me? You know, like give me a break. I'm gonna go down watching football eating chicken wings and smoking, you know, like this is like of no interest in that. So she just waylaid that plan completely and died on her own terms. I'm just thinking of something that a hospice nurse said to me because we were cracking up one day.

12:36 I can't remember what it was about, but there's a lot of anybody who's ever been by a you know there's a lot of humor. that shows up it's and it is literally gallows humor. You know, it really is like I've got a picture of of me and Rea's ex wife and Reya's ex girlfriend who were the two women who showed up like champions at the end of her life to help to take care of me and help to take care of her because they They loved her so much, it was also just such a factor of what a boss.

13:00 Mac Daddy Raya was that she had like Every woman who'd ever loved her came back to care of her when she was dying. You know and To take care of each other and There was a lot of laughter between the three of us about just like

13:11 handling this force of nature as she was dying. Like, can we survive it? Right. She's the opposite of a good patient, you know, and and so there was a lot of humor in there and The hospice nurse was laughing with this one day and I said to her, It's amazing that you can laugh given the line of work that you're in. She spends her life. working with people at the worst, most painful parts of their lives at the end of their lives. And and she said We have a little motto we say if you can't laugh at death, get out of show business. You shouldn't be a hospice nurse if you can't let you won't survive.

13:40 And I'm sure that's what you and I are talking right now in the midst of the Covet crisis. And I've been thinking about that. I've been thinking about the nurses that I know and I'm imagining that You know there's some dark ass humor happening in those hospitals right now. There has to be in the same way that soldiers would tell you about the the humor that happens when you're under fire, like

14:00 There absolutely has to be, or you you just simply won't be able to survive it. So I will say that the humor's there. In those moments. I mean It was right after Raya died. I mean, we had been through such hell with her. And her death was not as I say, it was it was brutal.

14:15 You know, one minute after she took her last breath, her last horrible breath. Gee, her ex wife. Stood up. Brushed off her hands and goes, Okay, so that's done. I'm gonna be on the next flight out of here like at two o'clock. It was hilarious, but it was also just like what Raya would have done, you know. Okay, you guys good? We good? We done here, you know?

14:36 We just all like rolled over laughing in the middle of our tears. You know, and I feel like that humor has to be shot through the entirety of your life or else you really are not gonna make it through earth school because earth school's a hard, hard school and it's a hard assignment. And and I I think the humor is quite literally grace. Let's pair stillness. With awe for a moment.

14:59 I've also read That There are times when you'll love a sentence so much that you read that you'll start clapping. By yourself. Where you happen to be.

15:11 Reading. And I would love to know. What type of writing What writers.

15:18 have done that for you, if you could name even a a few of them and what it is. What are the ingredients that lead to that? One woman standing ovation. Often in the bathtub. Well they say that great art has to

15:31 contain two features. It has to be both Surprising and inevitable. So that's the great thing. That's good. That's good. Right. Yeah. Paradox is that You have to go.

15:42 Oh my God, I didn't see that coming. And that is the only way that could go. I'm thinking of the ending of breaking bad. That whole show, but like the last moments of the state. Spoil spoiler alert. Spoiler. Yeah, spoiler alert. You've had many years to watch it now, people. I won't tell you the ending. I will just tell you that I also stood up and applauded at that because It felt both surprising and inevitable. So that's the feeling. You want your whole nervous system to kind of be like oh

16:07 Oh my God, I didn't know that could be, and yes, of course. You know? It had to be. And now it's rearranged my DNA in a certain way where I can't be the same now. Poetry tends to do it. the poets have this amazing ability to

16:23 into such a tiny space where it's like the encapsulation of inevitability and surprise. So I'll give you ex an example of of one piece that I love, which is a poem by T S Elliot. Called East Coker that

16:38 has gotten me through some of the darkest times in my life. Some of those moments in your life where you don't know what to do, right? Where a human being And this is where I think human life gets really interesting. What happens to people when they reach the end of their power. Because especially in this culture where we live in a in a culture that says you should be able to power through anything. Life is it will very generously remind you that you cannot And it will very generously.

17:01 break you at times and very generously show you as we're seeing right now in the COVID virus. We're like, oh actually there's a limit to our powers here. And it's very humbling. And what do you do when you're at the end of your powers? So the poem East Coker is one And it gets me every single time. How do you spill coca? C O K E R

17:20 C K E R, yeah, East Coker. And there's a part of the poem where T. S. Elliott writes. Wait without hope for hope would be hope of the wrong thing. Wait without love for love would be love of the wrong thing. There is yet faith, but the faith and the hope and the love are all in the waiting.

17:38 Wait without thought. For you are not ready for thought. And so the darkness shall be light and the stillness. The down second. That's a stand up and applause moment. Yeah, that is a stand up and applause moment. And sometimes when people I know are grieving or they're

17:53 stuck or they're broken or everything has been taken away. I will give them that poem because that says what I don't know how to say better than that. Which is Right now. You're being asked to wait without hope.

18:07 for anything that you hope for would be the wrong thing and wait without love. Anybody who's been going through a horrible breakup, I'll get in that poem. Like you're being asked to wait without love right now because Love would be love of the wrong thing. And anybody who's a beginning meditator I give them that poem.

18:23 Because of the line wait without thought for you are not ready for thought. You don't have the wisdom right now. To have the correct thoughts. So you need to wait without thought.

18:35 And Then you will see. If you do that and there's still faith. But the faith. is in the waiting.

18:41 The faith is in waiting without hope, waiting without love. Waiting without thought. That's the definition of faith. Sitting in the darkness and not waiting. And then you will see how the darkness becomes light and the stillness becomes dancing, but only every time.

18:55 In order to have it, you've got to give up hope and you've got to give up love and you've gotta have faith only in the waiting. So that's a line that makes me apply it. Another author who gets me is Another poet who gets me is Walt Whitman. And what went saying.

19:09 describing himself in a song of myself. Describing himself as standing both in and out of the game. watching and wondering at it and also being involved in it. that description of he watching himself. Walk through life.

19:23 both in and out of the game. Something that I think of as the highest point of enlightenment. Can you engage with your life. Can you be involved with your life? Can you

19:34 feel all of the feelings. Can you fall in love? Can you lose? Can you fail? Can you grow? Can you succeed? Can you fuck up? and also watch it from a little bit of a detached distance and marvel at the game itself. So that line gets me. And then as far as fiction writers go, I'm So in love with Hilary Mantel, who wrote the Wolf Hall trilogy about Henry the eight.

19:58 And won the Booker Prize for the first two installments of it. And then the third one just came out. And the way that I've been describing it to people is Imagine if All three Godfather movies were as good as the first two. Imagine if Godfather Part Three was just as good as one and two. That's how good Hillary Mantel is, that the third installment. And I'm reading that right now and I'm just it's just a bow down moment, you know, as an artist. There are a lot of writers who I look at their work and I

20:24 admire them, but I see how they did it. Because it's almost like a carpenter looking at another carpenter's work and being like, Oh, I can see how you did the joints there and you hid that. hinge there and that's cool. I see well done, you know. And then there are people I look at their work and I'm like I literally don't believe that you're human.

20:43 I don't understand how you can even do this. And that's how I feel about Hillary Mantel writing about sixteenth century England in a way that is so intimate. And so You cannot read that book without thinking.

20:56 This is exactly how it happened. And I don't know how she does it. I'm happy to never be able to do that. I'm just lucky to live on earth at the same time as somebody who can. I would push back a little bit. And I would say that

21:09 You have A rare ability to blend Readability. With Wordsmithing.

21:18 sentences that are very memorable and really strike a chord. I don't think that is easy to do. And I would say Kurvanegate is one who comes to mind, but it's not easy.

21:30 to combine those two things and It made me crack a smile when I was reading about you appreciating sentences. The quote from you at the end of This portion of the interview was It's part of the reason that the arts are around to remind us that we're not just here to pay bills and die, that we're also here to get excited and feel wonder and to feel awe.

21:50 That's easy to read, but it is something that makes me go, Fuck. God damn, you're totally right. It's like I need more wonder and awe. I'm paying too many bills. Spending too much on paperwork. So I do want to applaud that ability. And I'd love for you.

22:07 You to speak to what else you've learned from Martha Beck, what are some of the other things that have really stuck for you? I'll give you one more Martha Beck line that I love. She says there are certain moments of your life where you're standing in front of a bonfire. And you have to jump.

22:24 You just have to jump into it. And you have to be willing to burn away everything that you've been taught and everything that you're afraid of and just do it. And she said And I remember her telling me this with such glee. She goes

22:36 It's such a cool moment. that you're in. And she said this to me as I was leaving my marriage and going to be with Ray. She said that These bonfire moments were so fantastic because There's only two things that can happen when you jump into a bonfire. One of them is that you find out that it wasn't

22:52 actually a bonfire that you f you were afraid that it was gonna burn you to pieces and it actually didn't. It wasn't as scary as you thought. You did it. You took the weep. It turned out to be kind of like Warm and soft and easy. So it was no big deal. The other thing that can happen.

23:07 Is that it is a bonfire. And you are incinerated. And your entire life is incinerated by it. And that's even better because then you get to be reborn as a Phoenix on the other side, completely new. So either way you win.

23:20 So there's no reason not to. You'll either jump in and find out it was nothing, or you'll jump in and you'll be destroyed and that's awesome too. Doesn't play by the game. That's what I mean. Like that's what I mean about she's not even in the arena that we would call any sort of normal way of living. And for that reason she's been one of the Top three most influential people in my entire life. You're like Martha, do we go left, left, right, or straight? She's like we go up. You're like what? How do we how do we do that?

23:47 Uh that's incredible. Let's talk about the Integrity check. that sternum to navel area will have to come up with some sort of perennium like label that makes it a little easier.

24:01 Intercompass, I think is in the intercompass. There we go. That's where it's located. Yeah. When you do say an integrity check, and I had read that When Rey was sick, for instance, you began deleting or archiving emails without responding as a as a bit of a treat to yourself. Yeah. Not deleting deleting. Okay, deleting. Goodbye.

24:22 And When you say now Check in with yourself. And decide to say no to something. Let's just to make it easier, make it concrete.

24:34 via email. You get an invitation. from a friend you do actually really like with something that could plausibl advance your career or be fun, but you check in with yourself and it's like, nope. This isn't a yes. How do you phrase your Noes or declines. Do you have any particular

24:52 go to language that you like to use? I just wanna make sure everybody knows that this is not easy. I don't wanna have any illusions for anybody that this is simple and the closer the relationship, the harder it is. The closer and more intimately I'm involved with somebody, the more stakes. there are for me and the harder it is for me to tell the truth.

25:11 And that feels like it should be You know, there's a paradox. The people you love the most should be the people that you are able to be the most honest with. Well no, because they're the people who you want to hurt the least. That's where it's really, really hard. There's a couple layers of it. I now treat my inbox like it's my home.

25:28 Because I think it's an extension of my home. So if somebody walks into my home uninvited And announces themselves and doesn't say how they got a key. And ask for something. I delete that email.

25:40 I'm just like I didn't invite you in. There are proper channels, you know what they are. I don't know how you got my personal email and I just delete it. And and if I feel a sense in my sternum of offense. Of feeling like This person has taken a liberty I don't believe that I owe them anything.

25:56 I don't believe that I owe them anything any more than if I came down to my kitchen and saw people sitting at my table who I didn't know eating breakfast. I wouldn't believe that I owed the to make them a cup of coffee. I'd be like, Get out of my house. Like you're not supposed to be your I don't even think I owe them a polite response. I owe them nothing.

26:15 I didn't ask you to come into my house. I don't owe you anything. So that's the easiest. Those are the ones that are easy. And I now treat myself to doing that. I mean I do that every day. I clear my inbox out very quickly now. And then it's very w I'm entertained when they come back later and they're like just circling back. And I'm like, yeah, just deleting you again. Circle back as many times as you want. You are not coming in. So that's simple.

26:35 If it's uh just bumping this up, you're Yeah, and I'm just bumping you ba and I'm just it's like whack a moles. It's like I can do this all day. Delete, delete, delete. If it's somebody who I care about

26:47 If it's something that I'm interested in, but I'm just not Going to do it because I don't want to. I will write back and say thank you so much. I'm I'm really honored that you invited me to this. But I'm not gonna be able to do this at this time.

27:02 And I don't feel the need to give a reason. I think a simple no is really, really good. And the reason sometimes The reason it's good not to give an explanation? is that if that person is an expert manipulator As many of us are, that explanation will not suffice.

27:19 So it won't matter what you give as an explanation'cause they can come back and be like, Well, we can do it by audio. You know, or we can do oh if you're oh well we can do it a different weekend. Just No. And I learned a lot about this from my teacher, Byron Cady, who who teaches an amazing thing called the School for the Work. She's a whole nother another being who's not not at all living by the will. Extraterrestrial for sure. She is extraterrestrial. She is not she is

27:45 The only fully enlightened human being I can I believe I have ever met. And as such, she does not have any trouble saying An honest yes and uh no to people. Just to underscore that,'cause I did a uh an in person training with her. I mean literally.

27:58 No Hesitation. No Struggle. No.

28:06 Conflict. It's bizarre. And mesmerizing to watch. And she loves you. She's there's also no hostility. So um I remember seeing somebody come up to her somebody came up to her to event, handed her a a book that they had written.

28:21 Which people do to me all the time too. So I I really marveled at this. They said, I wrote this and I want to share it with you and she said Oh, sweetheart, I'm never gonna read that. True. It's just true. I'm never having that. And I'm like

28:32 Oh my God, I didn't know you could say that. So that's amazing. And she said it so lovingly, like oh no, I have no interest in reading that. So she teaches I don't know if you did when you took her training did you Do where she teaches it a simple no. And she does the training on how to get a simple no.

28:49 I don't think we actually spent much time on that. So I would love to hear you say more. We w We worked on the emotional one pages and the turnarounds. We did a lot on the turnarounds, which It's probably we could do a whole episode just on that. Everybody look up Byr Katie if it's amazing, but And if you have the means and if you have the chance to ever take her nine day school for the work, it's the most important thing I've ever done for myself so wow.

29:13 Say that quite simply. But she has a whole day in the nine day school for work, which is about The simple no. And the simple no is Ways to say no. And it always begins with

29:24 Thank you. And there's never a but. 'Cause she feels that the word but is very cruel. And It's just an and.

29:31 So it's thank you and no. And that's it. That's a simple no. And then if they come back, you can say Well, hold on, just to pause for a second. Is that literally the phrasing? Or is it just Yeah. Thank you. No. Yeah, that's it. That's it. And it just it still makes my stomach ache. Cause I'm like, Oh my God, you can't just do that. You've got to give you gotta like do the dance. And she's like, You don't have to do the dance. And she's the one who taught me if the person is a good enough manipulator, it doesn't matter what you bring.

29:56 They're gonna manipulate it. And the beautiful thing about a simple no is that it gives in the jujutsu game, it gives somebody no weapon that they can take and bring back at you. They can say you're being incredibly selfish. And you can say, I hear that and you might be right about that. That's another one she always says, You might be right about that. You might be right about that. And now.

30:17 And you just keep adding and no after the statements. So then there's But you know, I really I need you to do this. I'm desperate. And you say, I see that. I see your desperation and no. And one other thing she'll add is you can say If I change my mind about this, I'll let you know.

30:33 And now. And That's been a game changer for me. So I just did one last week. Somebody who I have a professional relationship said.

30:43 I want you to do this one hour video interview. To promote This thing that I'm doing. And old Liz would have thought I owe her that because she did this other thing for me that time.

30:55 And I checked in. With my inner compass and they're like nothing in me wants to do that. And so I just wrote back to her, I said, I'm so sorry and I'm not gonna be able to do this at this time and she wrote back and pushed

31:06 And And said Oh, let me clarify, I wasn't clear about why we need it. We really need it because right now it's really hard for us to sell things because of COVID nineteen and That's why we need it. And I wrote back and said, I hear you and I understand you and now And

31:21 It goes away. They don't tend to come back a third time. You know, it really does. Just stop. And let it sit at the no. The more words you add after that, the more entangled you get.

31:35 But again, I I wanna make clear it's Hardest closest to home. And it's hardest with family. And with family I find if I anticipate that I'm gonna be asked something. I really have to practice. I really because it's scary. And I have to really practice and be like

31:50 And just practice saying. I'm not doing that right now. I'm not coming this year. And I'll say it a thousand times. I'll just go for a long walk and I'll just practice it and practice it and practice it. Because as I say, the closer the people are to you, the more difficult it is. As a bit of uh personal digression here.

32:06 I was working on a book. An entire book about saying no this past summer. And The great irony, of course, is that I came up with all the reasons why I shouldn't write the book in the process of it. Putting it together. But what I noticed as I was practicing

32:20 Different ways of saying no is that It's an in Incredibly clarifying. Exercise. Because it

32:29 In a sense it kind of mm brings to surface the true character of many people you know or people who are attempting to reach you and what I found Surprising and maybe I shouldn't have found it surprising is that Many of my

32:44 Close friends. Who I anticipated might be upset would respond with. Dude. Good for you for respecting your boundaries. That's a great line. Rock on. And they got it. And they were just like, Oh, I wish

32:59 Yeah, I could say that more myself. Like good for you. And it was the bonfire that wasn't a bonfire. In those cases. Mm-hmm. Did you ever run into a bonfire that was one?

33:10 Oh for sure. Absolutely. And then I'm like, Oh wow, because if you What I like about What you said about the Or the sort of jujitsu analogy.

33:20 Is that if you provide really specific reasons for why you can't do it and you elaborate. You've just created a potential negotiation. Right. If you don't provide That's the

33:34 Grip that told hold. Then One of the few responses someone can give you if they're upset and still want to push is some type of Personal. ad hominem attack or an accusation. And then you're like, oh.

33:48 Wow. Okay. Now it's that kind of party. Okay. This is good to know before we're on stage having a public tiff at God knows what I mean, this is Valuable information. So there were definitely some bonfiers and Basically, People just self immolated because I was like, Oh wow, you've just proved my

34:06 Internal compass to be extremely accurate. And here is the reason I'm not Working with you. But you don't even just say that. You just know it Because the body knows first. The body knows first, but only always.

34:22 Only always. One of the things that Martha says that I love is she's like because culture and civilization have overwritten the software system of the body so much. And told you that you don't trust that. What you trust are the rules.

34:35 And the moray's and the fear based, scarcity based, crasping This is how you have to act, this is who you have to be in order to be safe. And meanwhile their body's like, Ew. You know, working. No, ew, gross. Or on the opposite side, like yummy. Like, mm, that's that I wanna be over there. I wanna be with those people, you know.

34:56 I don't wanna be with these people. And if you think about it. The wisdom of the body is so incredible to us Lat How many people do you know who said I knew the night before my wedding? That this was a mistake. How many people do you know say that and yet why did you do it?

35:10 Because you were twenty nine and it was time to get married. Because you'd been raised in a culture that said, This is what you do now. Because the invitations had been sent out because three hundred people had gathered. Because your family spent thirty thousand dollars on the wedding. Like whatever the reasons were.

35:24 You knew somewhere in that sternum area, you knew and how much you had to drink that day. In order to Override that? Whatever you had to do in order to shut down that compass that was saying, uh uh. It's brutal.

35:38 That's the work of the second half of my life. I can say that now, but I'm fifty. That The only thing I'm interested in anymore. Is that

35:51 Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by AG1, the daily foundational nutritional supplement that supports whole body health. And I do get asked a lot what I would take if I could only take one supplement. And the true answer is invariably AG1. It simply covers a ton of bases. I usually drink it in the mornings and frequently take their travel packs with me. On the road. So what is AG1? AG1 is a science driven formulation of vitamins, probiotics, and whole food source nutrients. In a single scoop, AG1 gives you support for the brain, gut, and immune system. So take ownership of your health and try AG1 today. You will get a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free AG1 travel packs with your first subscription purchase. So learn more, check it out. go to drinkag1.com slash Tim. That's drinkage one, the number one. Drink AG1.com slash Tim. Last time, drink AG1.com slash Tim.

36:52 Check it out. And now Jack Cornfield One of the key teachers to introduce mindfulness practice to the West

37:03 Author of sixteen books. Including Bringing home the Dharma. And seeking the heart of wisdom. And a founding teacher of the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts.

37:15 And Spirit Rock Meditation Center in California. You can find Jack on Instagram. At Jack. Underscore Cornfield

37:24 Jack, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you, Tim. Pleasure to reconnect. I have wanted to have you on the show for some time now and uh you've had certainly a Tremendous impact on my life, both through your writing and through

37:41 firsthand in person interaction, which I think we'll touch upon But first I wanted to Ask you a complete non sec order. from that, which is something that our mutual friend Adam Gizali suggested I ask you about. And Adam, for people who don't know him, is an incredible uh PhD M D

38:00 Neuroscientist based at UCSF. And He suggested Did I ask you about hang gliding. And I have no idea why he suggested that.

38:11 But I'm gonna start there and if it doesn't go anywhere we can change direction, but I figured we would just start with that and then we're gonna rewind the clock. But Why did he suggest I ask you about hand gliding? Well, it started

38:24 Many years ago when I cross country with a And we would stop. periodically and go off different hills. And it was fantastic. And then I wanted to do paragliding and started to learn it now.

38:39 Because everything is developed and paragliding is a lot more official. You need a license which I don't have. But one of my favorite things is to Tandem paraglide and go off the top of Places like

38:53 Grindelwald in Switzerland where you can take the ski lift up to nine thousand feet. And then jump off and explode. Silently like you're a bird. Along the Clouds, the birds actually do come by sometimes and like check out what's this big bird flying up here. You can catch thermals.

39:11 And go way up above the glaciers. It's one of the most thrilling and delicious experiences that I know. That's incredible. So you first experienced that at what age? Probably in my twenty. You know, late twenties. And did some and then sort of put it aside.

39:29 And then I was traveling and teaching in Europe. And I saw a sign for paragliding and I said, Oh gosh, I really want to do it. And started and now each time I go where there's high mountains and paragliding, that's one of my Things that I love doing.

39:44 Most people have these dreams once in a while, if you're lucky, a dream of fly. Or maybe in your meditation you have this sense of not being limited to your body. And this is the closest thing that I know'cause it's absolutely silent. And you're floating there. It's quite fantastic. And this is something you still do. Mm-hmm.

40:03 I hope to do it next summer when I'm back in the Alps. And how how old are you now? Seventy two. Seventy two. Good man. Well we're gonna Then

40:13 Go back a bit in chronology. And Ask about childhood. I would love to hear you describe Your childhood. What were you like as a child? What was your upbringing like?

40:26 Well, first thing to say is I remember when I got to Dartmouth College in nineteen sixty three. And I called my mom from the payphone in the dorm. Sometime in that fall. I didn't call very often, but you know how it is. And I said, Mom.

40:43 I said, guess what? There are a lot of other really fucked up families beside ours. So that's Kinda where we start. So uh I had three brothers.

40:59 And my father was a mixture of a tyrant and then a really abusive person and a brilliant guy. I was born on on a marine base. toward the end of World War Two. And they didn't send him overseas to do they put him in the medical part of the Marines.

41:15 Because He tested so high on their test that they, you know, okay, we're gonna use him for something. So he was brilliant in certain ways. He was a biophysicist who Help. designed some of the first artificial hearts and lungs, worked on the space program, but also did Other kinds of

41:32 Weird stuff like work for the Army Biological weapons. people not making biological weapons, but trying to design things that were kind of computer

41:43 Biological interfaces, all kinds of creative stuff. But he was He had mental problems. And so we didn't know when the car pulled in whether we were gonna get Doctor Jekyll or Mr. Hyde. He would come in and You know, either

41:57 He could. shout, be abusive, throw my mother down the stairs, rant, chase after us, try to hit us, whatever. Or we'd get this interesting creative person, but we hardly ever had people come over. when he was around during the daytime is the way we would because you never knew what you would get. And so

42:16 Our family life. in my family life in some way was also There were great parts of it'cause I had my brothers and we were like our own gang. We moved all the time. But we had each other. And because he was

42:28 wacky as well as smart, my father either quit or got fired every year or two. And then we would go from one place to another. I went to I don't know. eight schools by the time I finished high school. So my childhood Partly it was the happy things of Rough Housing and being a boy w with three other boys.

42:47 And adventures. And then in the basement my father had all kinds of scientific equipment. He had All this stuff from World War Two, this huge radio from a battleship that you could tune into.

43:00 a thousand different shortwave stations around the world. And projects he was trying to design stuff and so we learn from him. You could pretty much pick or design or do anything. In the physical world. And at the same time.

43:14 I felt like My whole childhood. Colored with the fear. Oh

43:21 His Violence. And his Unpredictability. And I became kind of a peacemaker in the family. We all sort of had our roles and but now I do it as a profession, right?

43:32 trying to kind of make it a little smoother between my parents so that they kill each other. And m each of my brothers had their own strategy. My twin brother, who was a lot bigger And much more outgoing. played football, which I certainly didn't. I was skinnier and You know.

43:47 I was in the orchestra and he was the football player. I remember when he first got in a Fist fight would like to add. Our mom.

43:58 My twin brother had been as young men sometimes do. It's probably thirteen, fourteen, anything, pretty big. And he was looking in the mirror, making muscles in the mirror to see how strong he'd become. Anyway, he just Got into a fist fight with my father.

44:13 And I was both thrilled. And terrified. But it worked in some way because of the abuse settle down quite a lot after that. So that was his his strategy was just to get angry. And then later kind of dead.

44:27 Go his own way, somewhat more, although we're all. all have been very close as brothers. So there was that At the same time, there was a lot of interest Intellectual interest. So we read and learned about all kinds of things. Both my parents were

44:42 really interested in the world around us. So it was sort of this next thing of the gift of being together with my brothers and a mom who was basically pretty nurturing, although she kept trying to leave him and never got it together. I think it was too scary in the fifties to have Poor boys.

45:01 You know, no job. And so we were in in the middle of this and the kind of healing that it took, it took a long time. to do the inner healing work from the pain of my family. And I remember when I became a Buddhist monk.

45:16 And I was sitting These first years. with my teacher Ajon Chah. in the forest monasteries of Thailand on the border of Thailand and Laos. And I'm sitting quietly.

45:29 And then some of these Memories or energy would come or I remember one monk. who had a pot near mine in the forest did something that annoyed me. And I just got enraged. Inside.

45:41 Mm-hmm. And I sad when I went to the teacher and I said I'm really getting angry here. And uh he smiled, he said, Yeah. Where do you think that comes from, or something like that?

45:53 And I said, Well I don't know. I said I thought I was a peaceful guy. I wasn't never gonna be like my father. I won't you know, I'm be peaceful. But it turned out it just stuffed all that stuff. And so when I told it my teacher about it, he said, Good. She go back in your hut. It's the hot season. You got a little tin roof and

46:10 Close the doors and windows and put all your robes on and if you're gonna be angry, do it right. Sit in the middle of that. You know, and sit in the middle of the fire. And don't be so afraid of it'cause you're afraid of it, you're just gonna keep stuffing it. And on the other hand, or if you're afraid of it, it'll just explode.

46:26 There's another way to be with it. And so that was the beginning of some healing. just to realize that I could actually tolerate The suffering. And the energy that was in my still carried from trauma in my body and heart.

46:40 So we're gonna Absolutely Come back to Ajan Shava because I have many questions. On that chapter. In your life.

46:48 But just so that I can create the proper visual in my own head. So you sat there in your hut In the sweltering heat with all of your robes on. Were you were you angry in silence? Were you yelling? What what the I was I was pretty much angry in silence and that's an interesting question. No, in the monastery the culture was not much that you would yell. You could go somewhere out in the forest and yell. It wasn't

47:11 decorous or something, people go, What the hell's wrong with that monk? So Mostly I was sitting in silence and then scenes would come and I would realize, Wow. I thought I was peaceful. In every cell of my body.

47:24 I also carry both the pain and anger of my childhood and my father. And just the anger that comes with being a human being and human incarnation. And I was never gonna have that, but of course there it was. And it lasted, you know, this was I had days of and and actually much longer, weeks or months of waves of of this coming. Um and learning how to be present for it and not get overwhelmed by it.

47:49 So I want to back track And then connect those dots. So between Childhood. And ending up in Thailand.

47:58 You mentioned Dartmouth. earlier and from what I've read at least you were initially pre med and then ended up Asian studies. Could you describe that experience in Dartmouth or how you went from pre med to Asian studies.

48:13 Well, you know, we all get turned in these mysterious ways in our life. We think we're going one direction. And then something happens. Unexpectedly. And a gateway opens so

48:28 I was Coming from an organic chemistry class. to the class that I'd signed up for out of interest on Asian studies. Or he is in philosophy or something.

48:40 And it was an old professor I'm Doctor Wing Sit Chan. Who'd come up from Harvard. He was kind of emeritus there. And

48:50 You can sat cross legged sometimes, you know, in the front of the room. And would talk about Lao Tzu and Daoism and they talk about Buddhist teachings and how the Buddha Taught.

49:01 Suffering. And Its causes and its end. And that really I all of a sudden I sat up and there's an end to suffering. And he said, Oh, there's all these teachings and practices where you can transform your heart and mind.

49:15 And I became thrilled about it and realized that Whatever impulse I had to go to medical school. Probably part of it came. Fan to heal myself.

49:25 And so I started to take more and more courses and then it was it it was the sixties and I became a Card carrying hippie. Uh card carrying L S D taking. Happy?

49:36 As a matter of fact, and at the end of Where I was getting ready to graduate, there was still the draft. And I thought well I I'm definitely don't want to go over And kill people in a war that I been protesting against so I decided to go into the Peace Corps.

49:50 instead and ask them to send me to a Buddhist country where maybe I could find a One of those old Zenmasters that you read about. And go assigned to Thailand. And when I got there You could kind of

50:03 Request where you went. And I said, Send me to the most remote place you can. I wanted adventure. But I also wanted to kind of reading all those old Zen stories. I wanted to see if that still existed.

50:15 You know, and there were little detours like being in Hayed Ashbury in the summer of love and things like that that Definitely. They they changed my life also in a very deep way. Because for at least for a time there was a window when people were just giving things away. There was such a sense that the world could be transformed. Some of it as we know.

50:35 Very, very naive. But on the other hand it also Felt like A greater sense of brotherhood and sisterhood than I had ever known. Except with my own brothers who I love a lot. We've done a lot of things together.

50:49 And I started to feel like There are other ways for me and for the world to be and live. And that was also very m wonderful. You mentioned a three letter acronym that we're probably not gonna spend too, too much time on, but you and I have had quite a number of conversations where I've wanted to ask you about some of your experiences with psychedelics including L S D, but we've never really gotten into it, so I figure why not do it in front of a few million people.

51:12 The LSD at that point, your experiences with that, did that inform your decisions at all? to then go into the Peace Corps and End up In a remote area?

51:24 It did, and I've written a little bit about it in in a couple of different of my books. Chapters and books I've written. Because Most Buddhist teachers.

51:34 And Hindu teachers of my generation. Also started with psychedelics. You know, myself and Almost all my colleagues. You know, in the

51:43 spiritual industry that I'm in. That was a beginning and for me It showed an incredible possibility that all is created out of consciousness. and the possibilities of inner freedom and basically I was able At the best of it.

51:57 To see Line. body and my personality. And my history and realize that that's not who I am. to become much more the conscious witness of it all.

52:09 To see Yes, birth and death and to go through those kind of death, rebirth experiences that can happen at times in a de Session with LSD. Or death of ego or sense of self or removing.

52:21 And realizing wow, there's a freedom. and a life force it's what we're made of. And that profoundly influenced my Interest in spirituality.

52:31 Also interesting. What the world can be. Now, just a few days ago I was on Low with my beloved. Wife Trudy.

52:40 And we were visiting spending time with Ram Das who For listeners that don't know was the author of this bestseller in the sixties called Be Here Now and now he's in the eighty six. In a wheelchair. But Grandas who had been at Harvard University and was one of the early explorers of L S T before he went to

52:59 India and became a spiritual teacher. In the living room while we were there two days ago. Roland Fisher, who is one of the senior Professors and psychopharmacologists at Johns Hopkins University. Medical school. Oh, rolling rolling grips.

53:16 Roland Griffiths rather. And Roland excuse me, Roland Griffiths. And Rollin's laid out all the research that's happening now. on the Silicon and that he's been doing.

53:28 And it's success for people, turbulent cancer patients, all of Losing A great deal of their The fears that they had. Working with people with severe depression.

53:40 And it was a beautiful session. Because you could hear how these sacred substances And these mind altering substances. When they're used in the right context. can really transform human beings.

53:53 And NYU, Johns Hopkins, there's a whole series of studies that are happening now. that are finally bringing it back into the mainstream. So I'd love to underscore just a few things that you mentioned. Uh

54:06 Number one. Ramdas for those people who want to do additional reading, formerly known as Richard Albert, if I'm getting that right. Yeah. has a fascinating story coming full circle with psychedelic research. beginning, I guess, at Harvard in some respects. So it makes sense to me why Roland's research would be mo so meaningful to him. And

54:29 A number of other just quick comments for people. Number one is if you're interested in looking into these Soul Simon, which is Considered the active psychoactive ingredient in Magic mushrooms at Johns Hopkins and elsewhere.

54:44 I've actually been involved with crowdfunding and funding myself some of the research related to treatment resistant depression at Johns Hopkins with Roland Griffith as the senior investigator. And I'll be posting some updates to that, but fascinating work looking at everything from and this is also as you mentioned, NYU and at other very well regarded Universities. Alcohol addiction.

55:07 Nicotine slash tobacco addiction. as you mentioned, end of life anxiety in cancer patients. The implications are really profound and the data very, very promising. And I wanted to also mention to folks who are

55:22 perhaps saying to themselves, Well, I'm not interested in taking psychedelics myself. That There are people I know good friends of mine who do not currently use psychedelics. But had the ego dissolving

55:36 experience of a non ordinary reality through psychedelics that then led them to become or contributed to them becoming very, very diligent meditators. And uh Sam Harris who's a PhD in neuroscience and thought of or very well known as an atheist, or you know, one of the four horsemen of the atheist apocalypse. Uh along with Richard Dawkins and others. is a very close friend and extremely diligent meditator and he's he's written about how his psychedelic experiences, which were in some respects very some of them uncontrolled and you really have a coin flip there is in terms of which direction you can go. But

56:13 Showed him possibilities. within his own mind that then led to a very, very I'm not gonna call it devout, although I should just debother maybe. Diligent practice. So I don't wanna take us You go to

56:30 Southeast Asia. Well I w I just want to say one more thing before we move on. Because we are talking about this. It turns out for those who are Listening.

56:39 That set and setting and intention are extremely important if one uses these psychedelics like psilocybin or something. To set the intention to learn to open to have a quiet it's not as a party experience. Absolutely. Brings your attention inward And then all the kind of discoveries

56:58 become right in front of you. But the other thing is that whether it's right for somebody to use psychedelics or to use meditation These are all Invitations

57:10 To step back. And see the mystery of your life. Because we tend to live in the Daily minutia and checking off our list of tasks that we have to do in completing them, our work or you know, or eating or all the kind of

57:25 Things that Make up a day. And we go on to automatic. And whether it's meditation and difference or other spiritual disciplines Or for some people, it also can just be

57:36 That they have what in Greek is called a katamas, a blow. You know, somebody close to them gets cancer or Or is dying or they have some accident or something.

57:48 And all of a sudden you step back and you realize, Whoa. Life is un certain the way I've been taking it. It's not just checking off the list. This is a mystery human incarnation. And what am I gonna do with it? And wow, look at this. How did I get in this body?

58:03 Look at plants and language, the air coming out of your mouth that You shape it different ways and it vibrates a little drum in the ear of someone else and I can say Golden Gate Bridge and they can envision it. And you start to realize that all of it is alive and made of consciousness.

58:19 And then the whole sense. of who you are. And what matters begins to shift. And you start to realise that Life is not just getting through the hoops.

58:30 But it actually also can be A celebration of the heart of something That you have to bring to the world that you come out of life. And my friend Maladoma Somme, who's a

58:43 West African shaman and medicine man also true PhD is a kind of remarkable guy. He says with the Dagor people in West Africa f that he's from Yeah. They say that every child comes into the world with a certain cargo is their metaphor, like the cargo ships that ply the

59:03 Rivers of West Africa. And that they're given gifts. to bring into the world. And that we have Gifts to bring to this mystery which include opening to it.

59:15 And as we do. Love grows, connection grows, and a whole different way of being in the world happens that we need So much at this time. So That's a little bit more. Interlude there.

59:27 Before we move on to Your next question. I welcome as many interludes as you would like to interject, and I want to just It was, I believe, Greek word for Kathambas, which means a blow. It's like something comes and it just sets your life spinning in an entirely different direction. Right, like a catalyzing event. And that that's Exactly.

59:49 I've I've had a few of those recently that I'd like to selfishly ask you about later, but So I can bookmark Just so I can bookmark this name, Stanislav Grof, if I'm saying that correctly. That's correct. When just when did you Meet him roughly.

1:00:04 What age or what date, just so I can come back to it, because this is another thing I've been meaning to ask you about for a long time and get into, but I haven't had the chance. There's Two things to say. When I came back from The monastery

1:00:18 And now it's you know I guess the year that I connect with Stan was maybe nineteen seventy three. I made two really important connections. I came back and started the Psychology in graduate school. I was in Boston. And first really important connection.

1:00:32 Happened. When I went to a meeting of the Massachusetts Psychological Association. And there was this Guy who

1:00:40 Look like he He didn't look just like the straight psychologist and it turned out he'd just come back from India not long before. Named Dan Golman. Who was a graduate student at Harvard and he'd project it on the screen This Tibetan wheel of

1:00:55 birth and death that you see in the Tibetan Tonkas that normally would be taken as some kind of primitive iconic symbol. And he said, No, this is a psychological diagram. The Buddha was actually More than anything else. He was a scientist of the mind.

1:01:12 And a profound psychologist and Here is how craving turns into contentment and here's how aggression can be transformed. into powerful energy to heal yourself and others.

1:01:24 And he was going through this diagram and I went and I talked to him and he said, Oh, you you come back from Must be. And so he took me to David McClellan, who had been the chairman of the social science and psychology department at Harvard at that time. The one who hired Tim Leary and Ram Doss.

1:01:45 And then later had to fire them for their LSD work. And his house. He and his wife Mary were Quakers. His home. Was a kind of suare.

1:01:55 Where Ramdas and Tibetan lamas like Shogam Trumpa and I think Krishna Murdy and various spiritual figures would come People were going to India and coming back. And I connected with this whole group.

1:02:09 Um folks. Who now been friends for forty five years. Richie Davidson was another that I met there, who's now one of the preeminent neuroscientists in the We're all on. studying contemplative neuroscience and

1:02:22 Affective emotional neuroscience. There was a whole Collective of people. Dan Golman who wrote emotional intelligence that sold ten million copies and Many others. And then I got a job working for

1:02:35 An Esilin like growth center in Boston at that time,'cause I was excited at all the new gestalt bioenergetics. What are the things that are transformative here? And they asked me to help set up programs and I thought well who do I wanna uh Neat. So I set up a program with John Lilly. And I set up the program. with Stan Groff, who was still at Johns Hopkins.

1:02:56 And married at that time, just married to Joan. Halifax Joan Groff. And we became friends. And so we stand and I have now worked together for forty five years. I went out to Join him

1:03:09 At Esselin for many, many years, spending many months together helping during his development of the holotropic breath work that's a this powerful breath transformation. And it has been a partner and a and a heart friend. For

1:03:24 exploration and we've traveled or we've taught and Russia and in Places in Europe and Various places around the world. So

1:03:33 This is definitely a path that we're gonna come down. And dig. Further into the But

1:03:41 I'm gonna steer us to I dunno Shah because I wanna know how Do you land with the Peace Corps in remote well, what most people would consider a remote corner of the world? And end up Finding the

1:03:54 A living master. How does that actually happen? I don't know, but I assume you didn't speak Thai at the time. I did actually cause the Peace Corps. And then I had to learn Laura. I did because the Peace Corps at that time, it was a very early in the Peace Corps. had really good language training. They borrowed it from the Monterey Language Institute. So

1:04:16 You know, initially I didn't speak that well, but Because I'd also studied Chinese At Dartman. It came more easily. And I was there working in these

1:04:25 In the health. Rural health department. on tropical medicine teams, mostly malaria, but also typhoid and Teams going out to different villages and taking drawing blood and giving out medicine and things like that. And then somebody said, There's a western monk in this province we heard about

1:04:42 You want to meet him? I said, Of course I do. So I I went to this Little mountain that walked up. Two thousand steps to the old Cambodian temple ruined at the top. And there was this very interesting guy

1:04:55 Who had just finished couple of years before the first Peace Corps, I think, in Borneo. And then got interested in Buddhism and Come and ordained as a monk. And I talk with him. He's now he's named Ajan Sumato is his monk's name'cause he's still a monk. And he became

1:05:10 Quite famous in Thailand and then Temple in in England. And I I became Friends with him.

1:05:19 And he said, Oh, I found a really fine teacher. He said, You know, a lot of them they kinda take you you're a Westerner and they treat you special. He said, This guy doesn't treat you any differently than anyone else. He just wants you to do the work. You know, and learn the deepest way you can. And he's in this Forest jungle. And I said I'm going there.

1:05:38 So having heard that, I went and I visited Ajan Cha. And he was a little bit like the Dalai Lama. He was funny. and wise and very warm hearted, but also very strict and very demanding, but he did it in this loving way. And I thought, Okay, this is the real deal. This guy looks like what I was reading about in all those Zen stories.

1:06:00 I read. That he Said to you. And uh I'd love for you to tell us when he said this to you. I hope you're not afraid to suffer.

1:06:10 If that's true. When did he say that and why did he say that? So I'd visited him a number of times and Told him I was going to become a monk and then I ordained in the

1:06:21 village where I was living in the Peace Corps. People wanted me to do that. It was a beautiful ritual. And then after Some days. Made my way down to his temple. That was his opening gamut. I'm walking in into the gate and I see him and I bow and I say I'm here.

1:06:38 And he looks at me, you know, kinda leans back a little a little skeptically said, All right, I hope you're not afraid to suffer. Welcome. It was like, you know, you didn't come here just to kind of do some Interesting cool anthropological s experiment or something like that. If you're gonna do it, we're gonna put you through the training.

1:06:58 And he did, but he you know, there was like this little smile as he said it, like, Okay, are you up for it? All right. Dude, come on in. And what did the training consist of? What were some of the first things that you had to do and then what was the suffering that he alluded to? What were some examples? Okay.

1:07:18 So of course the first training was just how to walk around and not have my room You know. fall on the ground and embarrass me and everyone loved it. Oh yeah, all right. Look at the Westerner. He's he can't even chew gum and Wear his robes. Right, or whatever. So part of it was just the unfamiliarity of it culturally and otherwise. There were the two kinds of suffering.

1:07:39 The big suffering, of course. was being alone with my own mind. I mean There you go. You know.

1:07:46 Having to do hours of Meditation. When I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And then as I talked about with anger or fear or confusion or, you know, all those kind of states. learning to deal in a very conscious and mindful way

1:08:02 And then more importantly. In a compassionate way. In a kind of In a loving way. With all the energies that make up.

1:08:09 My humanity and our humanity. And that means when you sit and you get quiet. Anything unfinished in your heart will also come up, all the unfinished business. So You know.

1:08:21 relationships that I'd had that ended badly in college or Certainly stuff from my childhood and family. Dreams that I carry, things fulfilled and not All that comes up. Yeah, my friend Annie the Mott.

1:08:35 Humorist and Ryder says My mind is like a bad neighborhood. I try not to go there alone. Um and there's some way in which in community sitting together with others in meditation and then sitting in my hut. It was really facing myself. And my full humanity. That was probably the mo most difficult thing.'Cause then you get insanely bored or insanely restless or

1:08:57 And then how do you deal with all those energies normally when we're restless or bored? What do we do? We Over the refrigerator or you know, go online or something because we can't be with our own loneliness. Mm-hmm. Or our own fear.

1:09:10 So that was the inner and then there's the outer ones. What are they? Uh Getting up. the bell would ring at three thirty in the morning. And I'm not an early riser by nature. I go, Oh God, here we go.

1:09:25 And we walked through it was actually very beautiful. Then we'd walk through the forest at night. Either by moonlight or sometimes you'd have a tiny little flashlight. And in one of the forest monasteries where there were a lot of cobras we'd have a little stick and you'd tap the Cass.

1:09:41 So that the snakes would know you or feel you coming and move out of the way. Wouldn't step on them. And then we would sit. Silently for a couple of hours and then do an hour of chanting. On a hard stone floor, mind you.

1:09:54 We everybody else seemed comfortable and my body was killing me. And then at least once a week we would sit up all night with the teacher. And he would sit there comfortably meditating, maybe talking with another colleague that it would come. And we'd just be sitting and meditating and He would kinda peek over at us like How are you doing? And I go, God.

1:10:14 It's been four hours. When is he gonna let us go back to Sleep and he didn't. You know, so Seeing up all night. It got very cold.

1:10:22 In the cold season. And it got insanely hot. In the hot season. And Somehow learning to

1:10:30 Live extremely simply. With a set of sandals and a set of robes. And an alms bowl. And then you would eat what you got. offer it in the village and we would share it in that monastery with others. Around us.

1:10:44 And sometimes you get Nice food and a lot of times in the dry season. You get really, really skimpy food and there wasn't that much to eat. And so picture a day where you get up at three thirty in the morning. You sit for a couple of hours in meditation and do long

1:11:01 than an hour long chanting on a stone floor. Then it's getting dawn and you walk barefoot, three miles, five miles, ten miles with a alms bowl and a handful of other monks. And get your food and come back. Whatever you've been offered, and that's the food for the day. And then you go back to your meditation or to the work of the monastery of sowing robes or drawing water from the well.

1:11:24 And it's muggy and a hundred and Five degrees hot season. Then you go back and you join in the community for more meditation. And then the teacher smiles and you say, How are you doing? you know. And then other kinds of practices, for example, we had a charal ground there.

1:11:40 And so what ground? Uh Charnel Ground, which is where a cremation ground where people Bodies would be burned. And so on occasion. would go to a cremation and then sit up all night. And contemplate death.

1:11:56 Look at the body and then watch as it burned. And then do these meditations where you would reflect on, Well, this is gonna happen to the body that you're inhabiting as well. Who do you think you are? Do you think you're this physical body made of hamburgers or you know lettuce or whatever you happen to eat. Is that your are you hamburgers and lettuce? You know, or Or are you your feelings? Were you your thoughts? Who are you really?

1:12:22 Born into this body. Like co on. So anyway. And The

1:12:28 Alms bowl. So you would be Did you eat whatever you gathered in One meal was it spread throughout the eat one meal a day which makes you very easy to Makes your life easy. And at the same at that monastery things were shared. There was other monasteries I stayed in.

1:12:46 Where you would just eat what was put in your own bowl. And um you didn't have to eat everything that was given to you. There were some things that were You know, in the Dry, poor season. There would be

1:12:58 curries that were too hot for me to eat'cause they used the chilies to kind of Preserve the food. Preserve preserve the food. But you know, when it was a really poor village or something, you know, they would have to make curries out of Field lice or field runs or that. Or bats or you know.

1:13:14 I remember eating there was a curry that was made out of Basically Grasshoppers that had come sweat through and there was this whole big In fact, wave. Insects that were

1:13:26 Eating the crops and they they collected them all and made a curry out of them. Um I think I might take the grasshoppers over the over the bats. Yeah, well. Yeah. When it's really highly spice, you can't tell what it's mystery. That's true. We all had mystery meat in middle school anyway. This was like mystery meat on steroids. Ex exotic mystery meat. What was the longest period of time that you spent in silence during that time in Thailand? Well, then I went to a Burmese monastery'cause I wanted to do This very intense meditative training I spent about five hundred days, so

1:14:04 Less than a year and a half in silence. With the exception that I would talk to the teacher. Mm every couple of days I'd have that little ten minute conversation about what was happening in my meditation. And the rest of the I was just sitting and walking

1:14:18 eighteen hours a day when I could, or Or so sleeping a little bit. Um and I remember At one point. It was relatively early on. I've been sitting and walking and pushing it as

1:14:32 Young men do, you know, I'm gonna get Enlightened and All of that, not moving, feeling with a lot of pain. Which is also part of what happened at The forest monastery sitting on a stone floor for hours.

1:14:44 Without moving. really had to learn how to deal with your own physical pain. And I was exhausted from sitting and walking in my little Hot that I had. For

1:14:55 That long retreat. And after a couple of months. I thought I'm really tired. I gotta lie down. But then I thought, Well, but I'm not gonna nap for very long'cause I'm I'm on my way to enlightenment. Whatever. I'm gonna do this right. So I said, All right, I'll lie down on the wooden floor rather than on the little mat that I had. And that way it won't sleep so long.

1:15:14 And I'm lying there. And then I wake up. And I get up and I walk very slowly doing this mindful slow walking to the And of the hot. And look out the window.

1:15:26 toward where some of the other monks and the teachers live, some way down through the trees. And then I turn around and I start walking the other direction in this Meditation hut that I had then. maybe fifteen, eighteen feet long. It was long and narrow. And I see this body.

1:15:46 Lying on the floor. And all of a sudden I go, Oh That's me. And then I realized that I'm having an out of the body experience. And what had happened is that I was so

1:15:58 intent. I'm not gonna sleep long, I'll get up very soon. That intention was really strong. But my body didn't want to get up. So I got up. But it wasn't it wasn't in my body. And I walk very slowly and I peered down on my body and I turned around and walked the other way, walked back. And then the second time I walk back I got closer and then I fell into my body. I woke up and I said, Oh

1:16:19 Wow, that's interesting. But what I saw out the window wasn't just like a dream. Because I was watching, you know, my teacher and talking to these other monks and and then I got up again and that's exactly what was happening. That was the first of the A series of

1:16:34 All kinds of very interesting experiences that happen. What would other examples of those types of unusual experiences be and was it your time in Burma? That found you experiencing these for the first time? First of all the first experiences even though I had experiment with meditation back in

1:16:53 College and so forth. were experiences again that came through psychedelics. And so I was Familiar with All kinds of weird and

1:17:03 powerful and mysterious or mystical kind of experiences. But there's something about learning how to navigate it. Without taking a substance and learning that your own Consciousness is the field that you can learn to navigate. First all the

1:17:19 personality and emotions and history and so forth. But then you start to realize that you're bigger than that, that who you are is not just your thoughts and feelings in your mind. And so whether it's out of body experience Or the experience of vastness of becoming the sky.

1:17:36 within which everything arises and passes. or the experience Um Profound silence or of the void where you enter a a stillness before

1:17:47 Experience even arises. Or the experience of luminosity where my body would dissolve into light. Their time sitting as you get concentrated and somebody or concentration. That your whole body and mind open up and

1:18:00 You know, first you get the elements your body can feel heavy like a stone, the earth element, or it can feel so light that you have to open your eyes and make sure you're not floating because it feels like you're floating in the air. Or it can be filled with fire and you feel like you're in the middle of a raging fire. Or it can get icy cold. You know, or

1:18:19 All kinds of vibrations and Kundalini energies and chakras start to open. And sometimes it's pleasant and sometimes it's not. You know? As deep energy. Start to move through your body, they also kind of

1:18:32 push open the places that are held closed so that When you're Heart starts to open in deep meditation. Sometimes it feels like you're having a heart attack that's physically painful. Because all the things that you've held around your heart to protect yourself. start to loosen.

1:18:49 Well when the energy hits your throat. And it starts to open. Weird sounds come out, you know, and then you get to Visions that come in there. Brow chakra and

1:18:59 You start to see all kinds of colours and visions and Hear things that we're going to do. All possibilities of the play of consciousness can start to open. After

1:19:09 Both period of silence. but also really deeply training attention and concentration. These experiences just to put them in Or at least part of uh what you said in context for people Listening.

1:19:24 There are a number of things you mentioned, but one in particular that opening in the chest that I experienced in the ten day retreat. Done it. Spirit Rock. For which you were one of the

1:19:37 the instructors or the lead instructor. And It was an incredibly powerful experience and Listening to your description of some of the feelings. It makes me want to go to the jungle and spend time doing this type of training. However

1:19:53 The ten day retreat, as you know from firsthand observation and interacting with me, was incredibly difficult for me. and terrifying at a number of points where I felt like I had cross the boundary. into maybe even madness where I I was fearful I wouldn't be able to return from

1:20:10 So I'm curious to know During that period of time in Thailand In Burma. Could be afterwards as well, but when you were in the jungle and doing this very intense work. Were there any particular points when you wanted to quit to go home? How did you think.

1:20:27 I mean and I remember I got What I think was malaria. I had a really high fever and I was sick as a dog and I'm lying in the bottom of my Little hut there. high fever and shivering and Cha came to visit me.

1:20:41 And in the Lao language, and he was also funny and quite blunt. And the Lao language is a very straightforward kind of The sentence structures are fairly simple. So he looked at me and he said, Sick, huh? And I said, Yeah. And he said, Hurt's all over, huh? I said it's your chess. He said Hot and cold, yeah.

1:21:01 He said. Makes you afraid. I nodded. He said, makes you want to go home and see your mother, doesn't it? And I'm nodding there. And then he looked at me and he said, You know This is the jungle fever. This is malaria. We've all had it. But now there's some good medicine. I'll send the medicine monk over and in a couple of days you'll be fine. And then he looked at me and he said, You can do this, you know, you can do this.

1:21:23 So I mean that was an example of what I'm showing. What am I doing here? What kept you going? I mean, I don't want to interrupt, but it's like what kept you going? I'm imagining Five hundred days of silence. I could barely handle ten days. You know, Tim, I mean, what's kept you going? What keeps any of us going about things that we care about? I had somehow, I don't know, kind of a wacky But I think also Um important

1:21:51 kind of passion to say, I want to understand. Or I I've started down this road and I wanna see where it goes. And I think all of us find at a certain point in our life that they're or if we're lucky. that something really matters and you've done it in your work and your travel. You want to explore what your human capacity is.

1:22:09 And I read these old Zen stories and I wanna see if this is true. I wanna find out. And then as I started things started to happen like that. out of the body experience and rapture and changes in Openings. And I realized there's really something to learn here. But there are a couple of other things that

1:22:26 That I wanna add to this. One of them that's the most important thing. Is that it turns out that it wasn't and it isn't so much About the actual experiences. So uh Jen Cha my teacher

1:22:40 The first eight years in the jungle He had been a very ardent meditator and had all kinds of Insight and dissolving into Madi and Jhana experiences all kinds of Um body is awakening.

1:22:59 Somadis a has a lot of meanings is a word, but it It can mean profound states of concentration. In which the mind dissolves into light or into joy or bliss or becomes absorbed with any one of all kinds of states. So we went to the most famous teacher of that time, another Ajan Ajanman.

1:23:19 And told them about all these experiences in the The master looked back into it and said, Cha, you missed the point. These are just experience. You know, it's like going to the movies and you have a romantic comedy and you have a war movie and you have a documentary. And you have uh you know, a Disney movies that they're just movies on the screen. Some pleasant, some unpleasant. The only question is

1:23:42 To whom do they happen? Turn your attention back. And ask. Look to see. Who is the witness of these? What is the consciousness

1:23:54 That is knowing these ever changing experiences. This is where your liberation will come. He said become His language if I translate it is The one who knows become the knowing

1:24:06 Rather than the experiences And then you can tolerate anything and you can respond with love and understanding. Because You rest. In the timeless

1:24:17 Consciousness which is your true nature. I also learned in meditation and teaching is that it's not so much about the experiences, oh, I want to have this or that experience. But it's this Profound turning back.

1:24:31 To ask who am I? What is this consciousness itself? That was born into this body. No, we'll leave it. We can talk about death at some point if you want. Whatsterious consciousness itself.

1:24:45 So there was that. And then then I've also had the opportunity of being with a few other teachers and one or people that I was Very close to and inspired me profoundly.

1:24:59 was a Cambodian monk named Mahagosananda. Who was the Gandhi of Cambodia. And when I met him we were living and training together in a forest monastery in Thailand. And it was during the time that Khmer Rouge came to power. And eventually.

1:25:14 killed two million Cambodians in a kind of genocide. He survived because he wasn't in country. But all nineteen of his family members were killed. His temple burned. All the Buddhists. techs and so forth were destroyed. And when he was able to

1:25:31 He went to the refugee camps. Refugees were pouring out of Cambodia. By the hundreds of thousands. And he went to the refugee camps on the border of Thailand and Cambodia and I was able to go with him. At uh at certain point.

1:25:46 And he decided to open a temple. In the middle of one of the biggest refugee camps, here's fifty or a hundred thousand people, these tiny little bamboo huts. And got permission from the UN H CR High Commissioner of Refugees. And build a platform with a little roof over it and put an altar with a traditional Cambodian Buddha on it and so forth. But it was a camp with the Khmer Rouge underground.

1:26:11 Lots of them. And so they put the word out that if anyone went To Be with this monk. When they got out of the camp back to Cambodia, they would all be shot.

1:26:22 So we wondered who would if anyone would come. And went through the camp the day the opening day. Within being Kind of temple gong ringing it. And

1:26:34 twenty five thousand people poured into the central square around this little temple. And he Mahos Ananda sat there and he was a scholar. He Spoke fifteen languages and He was a you know extremely kind hearted human being.

1:26:51 Who had suffered enormously. And had transformed it into the kind of compassion that we think of with a Dalai Lama or something like that. In fact, they became friends. And Gosanana became the head of all of Cambodian Bozum, but there he was. At this point.

1:27:06 She didn't Looking out at twenty five thousand people. Who had suffered immense traumas and you could see there was a Grandmother. And the only two surviving grandchildren that she had, or an uncle and one niece and

1:27:21 Their faces were the faces of trauma and of survivors. And I thought all right, what is he gonna say to them? And he sat very quietly for a long time. Just in their presence. And then he put his hands together

1:27:36 In this kind of modest way. And began to chant in the microphone. He had a sound system. In Cambodian and in Sanskrit or Pali, the Buddhist language. One of the first verses from the Buddhist text.

1:27:51 That goes Hatred never ceases by hatred. but by love alone is healed. This is the ancient An eternal law.

1:28:02 And he chanted it over and over in Cambodian and in Sanskrit poly. And pretty soon The chant was picked up and

1:28:12 In a little while twenty five thousand people. We're chanting this verse with him. And I looked out and they were weeping. Many of them'cause they hadn't heard their sacred chants for years.

1:28:25 But also Because he was offering them a truth. That was even bigger. Than their sorrows. That hatred never ends by hatred.

1:28:36 But by love alone is healed. This is the ancient An eternal law. And they were sitting in the middle of the The healing energy of the Dharma of the teachings of the heart. that can liberate us. Later on, go Solanda, who was nominated for the Nobel

1:28:53 Peace prize a number of times. Spent fifteen years walking through the killing fields and the m mined areas and so forth. Leading people on foot back to their village. And he said to the refugees, You can't go back in

1:29:09 A bus or the back of a truck or something like that. You have to reclaim your land with love. And so he would lead a thousand people and he'd be in the front with a Bell and a gong and a few other monks. And the whole way back they would be chanting the chants of loving kindness so that by the time they got To their village.

1:29:30 Whatever had been destroyed. There was the sense that they were reclaiming not just the land. But they were reclaiming their own Hearts. That's a beautiful.

1:29:40 Really beautiful story. And It prompts me to ask a question that I struggle with answering myself. And it's also a question many of my friends have asked themselves. And I'll take a stab at it.

1:29:54 How do you decide When to do Deep inner work. And take an extended period to do that. Versus

1:30:04 being in the world. And Trying to Impact others. and the world and to just provide a little bit of background on that.

1:30:13 I have friends who are building businesses or building careers of some type or families and I at this point do not have wife, kids, or company to build, at least with a large organization. And I've come back from various Experiments, sojourns.

1:30:31 experiences over weeks or months and shared these with them and they've expressed this longing, this deep yearning. to do something similar and then they ask this question, like how do I How do I best decide? If and when to do the deep extended work versus being in the world. And I I know it might be a false dichotomy. You might not have to choose

1:30:52 But I'll talk a little bit more just to fill the space, but I had this experience personally not long ago when I was in South America. And had someone tell me In Spanish, which was not their native language. This is an indigenous tribe, but this apple, this mayor, effectively, who worked a lot with different plant medicines and he said that he recommended one fifteen month diet.

1:31:13 Very, very strict fifteen month period. with many different restrictions, no sex, no alcohol, no pork, et cetera, to develop certain capacities and to practice In effect, I mean at certain types of meditative Practices. So I struggle with this myself as well. How do you suggest someone think through

1:31:33 So did you give up sex and pork? Uh I've done it for short periods of time. Not a year and a half. I've done it for weeks at a time, but not for fifteen months. But what appealed to me about that Definitely not the lack of sex and pork. I like both of those things. It was he said, That's something you only have to do once in your life and it opens doors. And creates opportunities that

1:31:55 are difficult if not impossible to achieve otherwise. So of course That's very tantalizing. But fifteen months is a really, really long time to opt out of everything else. And I'm not saying it has to be fifteen months for some people. As you know, setting aside even ten days to do a silent retreat is hard. And I know there are things that they can do.

1:32:14 on an ongoing basis, like morning meditation and so on. But for those who are really drawn to this extended deeper work. How do you think about and that's why Gosananda brought it up for me,'cause he'd spent so much time outside of his country and then went back and was really on the ground doing work with locals. How do you think about that or suggest someone think about it? First my answer is yes. Because all of the things that you say are true that Yes, most cultures

1:32:41 Encourage at some point human beings, most wise cultures, human beings to step out of their ordinary roles and their ordinary routine, whether you go to the mountains or the ocean You know, or a temple or a change. How you're living. So that you can open up to the mystery.

1:32:57 And so that you also can open up to love'cause what I saw with my teachers in Gosanando as well, Ajan Cha and other is that they were able to love no matter what. It was really Because they inhabited Consciousness in a very different way than just a small sense of self. There was something

1:33:15 A possibility. That we could live with forgiveness and love. And be really effective in the world at the same time. So they're not separate. And that's sort of what your question is. How do we live in the world and at the same time? You know, what trainings and how do we connect with something deeper.

1:33:31 And part of it is just intuitive, you know. Tim. If you have newborn, you know, or young children and so forth, it's not the time to go on a long retreat. Your kids are your practice. And

1:33:45 You can't get a Zen master. Who's gonna be more demanding. than you know an infant with colic. Right. Or you know, or a teenage, you know, certain teenage kids but with the young ones. You know, your Zen Master might say you've got to get up early in the morning and you know, once in a while you might roll over.

1:34:04 The kid is crying and sick. You have to get up. Your family needs tending and you know, if you're even vaguely A responsible and caring Did you That becomes your practice and if you think, Well

1:34:19 If only I could be in the great temple of Kyoto or in Ashram in India or down in the Amazon with Tim taking ayahuasca or whatever that's plant medicine they give, you know. Your kid. Can be like ayahuasca on steroids. Okay, you wanna face yourself and your own limitations and your own You know, You wanna look at the small sense of self and find out how to live with it.

1:34:44 freer and bigger spirit here. We just hired someone to live with you and train you full time. So it's really and that's an important thing, but but what makes it work Is that You have that intention. Not just to soldier through it. But to say let this be a place where I awaken

1:35:05 Graciousness and inner sense of freedom and peace as things come and go. Where I awaken the possibility of presence. And Pleasure and pain and joy and sorrow and gain and loss and all that changes. That I find a

1:35:18 An inviolable or uh Timeless. Place of Becoming the loving witness of it all. becoming the loving awareness that says, Yeah, now I'm having a family experience.

1:35:30 And this is the place. To find freedom. 'Cause freedom is not in the Himalayas or in the Amazon. The only place it's found is in your own heart exactly where you are.

1:35:41 And that's what goes to non the taught and wonder. But uh Jan Cha. That's really what they wanted to Communicate. Now that being said

1:35:49 If you have an opportunity and you're drawn to it. Like somebody you might do you know, Jack Dorsey? I do. I do know Jack, yeah. So Jack just did his first ten day Meditation retreat. Good for him.

1:36:01 And he tweeted about I wouldn't say it otherwise, but he tweeted about it. And it was, you know, one of the top Transformative experiences of his life. And it's not to say ten day retreats or the be all and end all. They are they're very powerful and compelling. Even if you have a company.

1:36:18 Or even if you have a family. There might be a period of a week or some days where you can In fact Get away. And step out of those roles.

1:36:28 And turn inward. And that can be tremendously valuable. So I think both are important. You just have to listen when the when the time's right. There are so many things that this brings up. The first though is just uh

1:36:40 Housekeeping for people who may not recognize the name Jack Dorsey. That's Jack. At Jack, I believe it is on Twitter of uh you might a then wonder how did he get that User handle well. Uh he is one of the people behind Twitter. So he is of Twitter and Square Fame among many others. Fascinating, fascinating guy.

1:36:59 So people can check him out. comment on the infant being the full time trainer working with you twenty four seven reminded me also since you mentioned Ram Das earlier. of a a quote of his that I like and I'm gonna paraphrase I'm sure but If you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family. Which I think is a fantastic one. And that's part of the reason and you know some of the backstory, but We all have

1:37:26 I would imagine we all have tough things. that happened to us experienced traumatic experiences. as children have a lot of triggers related to family members typically. And for me the force to break takes a number of different forms, but that includes a trip every six months, an extended trip of two to four weeks with my parents.

1:37:46 And my brother when he can make it. So that's Only after being introduced to meditation something that I would even consider as a practice and the last point I'll mention just out of my personal experience is there's a piece of paper I have in my wallet and I've had in my wallet for a u few years now. It's getting a bit worn down.

1:38:04 It's a piece of construction paper. An ex girlfriend gave it to me who who knew me very well and it says, The task that hinders your task is your task. Beautiful. And uh that's a good reminder for me. I wanted to ask you Two questions that are personally important.

1:38:24 but also may apply to other people. The question that I believe you mentioned, Ajan Cha, perhaps others have indicated is the question. versus the experiences or movies of these say out of body experiences and so on. To whom do they happen, right? To whom do they happen. Is this a co on? Like what is the sound of one hand clapping where there isn't really an answer you're expected to arrive at. Is the value in contemplating the question more than any answer?

1:38:52 Yes, both. No. Yes, both and no. Yeah, because it is it it's a profound contemplation for us. One of the great Questions of Human incarnation. Who are we? How do we get into the how do you get into this body with the

1:39:09 Wiggly things. On the end of your limbs, you know, and the little fits of claws that you have left, you know, as nails and a vestigial tail and a hole at one end into which you stuff dead plants and animals and glug them down through the tube. I mean the whole incarnation thing is really pretty wild. So who are we? And then what are what how do we make meaning of it? This is a lifetime question and that way that it it's a co on. But in another way it also actually does have an answer.

1:39:38 And the answer of course has to be found by each person. The answer to point toward it. It's very clear that you're not just your salad and vegetables and hamburger body. And you're not just your emotions, I hope,'cause they're always changing and your thoughts. Good God, I hope you're not your thoughts. Um

1:39:57 So you start to realise all right. What is there? then what is this self? Who am I? In neuroscience, you know There was a Time magazine issue on modern neuroscience where it said neuroscientists have searched throughout the brain over many decades now and come to the conclusion that they cannot find the self located anywhere.

1:40:19 in the neural mechanisms of the brain and that it simply does not exist. But what does exist? Is it a sense of self that's built out of A sense of identification with our thoughts and body and so forth. It's all wise and appropriate. We should be.

1:40:35 But we also know that it's not The End of the story. And you know it from Walking in the high mountains.

1:40:44 Or listening to an extraordinary piece of music or making love or taking some sacred medicine. You know, we're sitting At the bedside of someone when they die, that mysterious moment when Spirit leaves the body. Or when a child is born.

1:40:59 We have these moments where we open to mystery. And realize that who we are. is not just our personal history or our body and Emotions. That we become

1:41:10 The consciousness itself. The witnessing. Awareness that we are the loving awareness that was born into this body. And that becomes actually A direct knowing, a direct experience. So there is a

1:41:23 A way in which we also can come home to ourselves. And it brings a tremendous sense of Freedom and well being. As all the movies of ever changing life happen to us. So that's why I said yes and no and both. Um and and as just a little aside thinking about you going back to your

1:41:44 Family as a practice and twice a year as you're doing. I just want to remind you and the listeners that Buddha and Jesus both had a hard time when they went back to their family. So don't think that you know, there's something Wrong with you. It's just part of it. So that's why they call it nuclear family, I think. Anyway. I guess it's a word more than a question that I I'd love to

1:42:09 ask you to define and that is compassion or compassionate. When you use that word Or those words. What do you mean exactly? It to mean for people. I would like to dist

1:42:22 Compassion. From empathy. And I'll use a simple illustration. If you're on the playground and you see a kid being bullied And you feel, Oh, that must feel terrible. That hurts.

1:42:36 That's an empathy. And empathy can be Useful it also can be. You can get overwhelmed by empathy if you don't know what to do with it, but There's some way in which

1:42:46 You start to feel resonating you because we are not limited to these bodies. We are actually uh And interconnected. System. Oh.

1:42:56 Consciousness and I'll talk about that a little bit more. In a minute. But we all know whether it's mirror neurons from neuroscience or the field of presence as you know Scientists like Dan Siegel talk about extended

1:43:11 Present. That we can feel empathy with one another, someone's sad, someone's angry. Someone's hurting. Compassion. Is the next step. You see, or recognize, you feel

1:43:22 And then You care. You care about it and you want to, if you can, do something that helps. So That you see the kid being bullied and you realise I wanna tell the teacher or the principal or I wanna just walk over there and say something or intervene to help stop it.

1:43:38 And so compassion It's called the quivering of the heart. When it wants to move to alleviate the suffering of yourself,'cause you can have self compassion, but it's very important. Or those around you. And it's born into the earliest studies of the infants.

1:43:56 You know, it's all in various places like that. show that and even very, very s very small children have this resonance and this kind of care. And so it's not shut down in us. We're a species that's interconnected.

1:44:10 And we care for one another. And this is Your birthright, this natural Natural compassion and through practice and meditation. You can reawaken it, you can extend it. And it can become

1:44:22 Your way of Living and moving In the world. As a little aside, and I'll just bookmark this one. Just got back from a conference with our

1:44:32 Dear friend Adam Gazali, our mutual friend. Richie Davidson, who's another of the Most famous. Neuroscientists, especially in this area. And a number of other some contemplatives and there are scientists and some

1:44:46 Technologist from the Valley in V C. Talking about how to build compassion. Into our interface. Well with the technological world, compassion tech. Starting from the very simplest things of projects like

1:44:59 Can you build a fit bit for compassion? Where instead of your body where you can either No moments of care. Around you or in your cell. Or be prompted to care for yourself.

1:45:11 You know, or when you say to Siri or Alexa, you know, I'm feeling lonely or And so forth. What kind of response do you get from the algorithms and all of that? Because in the UK England.

1:45:24 just uh appointed their first minister of loneliness for the country. And I think you'd think it was a joke, but it's not. It's like an old Beatles song, All the Lonely People. There are ten million lonely people in England, they've estimated. And it's you know. It's for isolation and loss of capacity and health and All kinds of reasons that loneliness makes things way worse.

1:45:46 But there's some way In which compassion is that which connects us. And it's a beautiful thing, even if you walk down the street and you see someone You know, who's struggling and so forth. Doesn't mean you have to fix the whole world.

1:46:00 That's not your job that would be egotistical. But you can reach your hand out and mend the things that you can. You can tend the things that you can. And you can do it not because oh you pity them, those poor people. But because they're your family. You recognize that we are

1:46:17 common humanity we're in this together. I'd like to build on that and preface it with a comment on the text. So you mentioned collaborating with Adam. and at least discussing the potential of combining or utilizing technology to help people to develop and and harness compassion. And some folks listening might be like, oh come on, that's so pie in the sky. But I'd like to point out

1:46:40 that you've already collaborated successfully with Adam on software like MetaTrain. Uh M E D I T R A I N, which was one of the tools Adam has used in his N of One or N of Two experiments in rejuvenating his mental capacity to, I wanna say in in his twenties in Adams. Adam's one of those guys you can't tell if he's twenty eight or Forty five. He's just a a silver fox who always looks young. So I don't know how old he is, but he's not twenty two.

1:47:09 But the Meta Train was one of the tools that he utilized. I don't remember the the name that he used for this run of experiments. You might know the training that he did, Neuroman or something like that. was very, very successful. So you already have a track record of collaborating successfully with neuroscientists and technologists. On the compassion front, I'd love to use that as a segue. to loving kindness and by way of personal example I failed.

1:47:39 Well, failed is a strong word. I quit. I stopped meditating after many, many attempts had a very Absurdly high number of false starts over many years. And it really stuck. After a number of experiments and experiences I had doing three or four day trainings with, say, transitable meditation and having the social accountability, being accountable to someone else is very helpful. But another turning point was

1:48:05 Experimenting with loving kindness meditation. And I think in part it succeeded because it took the focus off of me, me, me, I, I, I. And allowed me to Focus on others, but I'd like to read a brief

1:48:19 Paragraph. From a profile. of you in the New York Times. This is from two thousand fourteen. And feel free to correct anything that is incorrect, but I'll give it a read first. And I quote, in the West, Cornfield says, quote, We encounter a lot of intense striving ambition and a lot of self criticism, self judgment, and self hatred.

1:48:40 End quote. Concerned, he initially turned to the Dalai Lama for advice, but self hatred was such a foreign concept to the Tibetan Buddhist that he wasn't able to offer any real insight. Over time, Cornfield and his colleagues began to believe that Americans needed particular meditation practice closely linked to the concepts of self forgiveness. And loving kindness. A training in the unconditional acceptance of imperfection. Without such a foundation, says Cornfield, meditation can easily become, and this is the part that I underlined and started. Without this foundation, says Cornfield, meditation can easily become yet another form of striving.

1:49:11 quote, another thing you do to make yourself better, end quote, instead of a path to true contentment. Could you please Describe for folks. What loving kindness. meditation practice looks like and elaborate in any way that you feel might be useful or helpful for folks. Yeah.

1:49:27 That meeting which was some decades ago with the Dalai Lama. Yeah, he didn't understand when we talked about self hatred. He couldn't e there's no word for it. Back and forth with his hands, or what does this mean? Finally he looked up and he said, But this is a mistake. Why would anyone do this? But Lenny asked how many of you there's a group of us who were teachers had experienced this and almost everyone raised their hand. So we see

1:49:51 that when people begin in our culture and In the west. To meditate. Court. Turn inward really.

1:49:59 That it's very common. To encounter a lot of self criticizing. Self judgment. Or even self hatred. And you know, they're all the causes from our th these are all kind of conditioning that we got from

1:50:14 from our childhood, our education and so forth. But what it means is that you're sitting there saying, I'm not doing it right. I'm no good. You turn meditation into one other one other thing that you don't do, right,'cause you can't control your mind. The truth is. that you can't control your mind easily. That's not the point. There's a different way of approaching your mind.

1:50:34 Which gives you tremendous capacities, but it's not oh I have to stop my thinking or I don't want to have these feelings and I Hate having all these judgment. I don't wanna be so judgmental like I hate this. Judging mine. What is it it's just more judgment. So instead as you become first Able to become the loving witness.

1:50:53 the mindful loving awareness that says, Oh This is the judging mind. And it's been trying to protect me. Thank you for trying to protect me. I don't need you now, thank you. All of a sudden there's a distance from the Painful or

1:51:07 Destructive or Self critical thoughts. Simply by witnessing them with loving awareness and acknowledging them. This becomes the gateway to the practice of loving kindness and self

1:51:20 compassion. And very often people can't do it for themselves. They feel That's too much of a stretch. Like why would I wish myself Well, it feels egotistical. And so The way that

1:51:33 This practice. Begins. For such folks. is instead To think of someone that you really care about a lot.

1:51:43 And to picture them, remember them, put them in your mind's eye. And feel the kind of well wishing you would want for them. You know, may they be Protected and safe. Oh difficulty.

1:51:56 May they be held in Loving kindness. May they be well or healthy, strong. And you wish them that may they be happy. And you do this for a time a kind of inner well wishing.

1:52:09 And also maybe you feel As you think of this person That you care about. You let yourself also turn into the measure of sorrows they have. The struggles that every human being has.

1:52:22 You know, and it tenderizes your heart as you think of them. Because you don't want them to suffer. You feel the kind of Rising of compassion and care. So may they hold themselves in compassion, may they be Safe and protected and well.

1:52:36 You do that with one or two people that you care about for a time. And then you can imagine even as I'm describing this and you following your own heart. You could imagine these To

1:52:49 Love ones looking back at you. With the same kindness. And saying just as you wish us protection and safety and happiness and well being. I know and compassion.

1:53:02 They gaze at you and they say, You too. May you be Safe and protected. May you be filled with Tender compassion for yourself and kindness.

1:53:14 May you two be Healthy and Well. And may you be happy. They want you to be happy. I think about when I'm doing this I'm visualizing some loved ones.

1:53:25 I know that As I do it, I can feel they want that for me. And then finally As you feel that from these Loved ones.

1:53:34 You can put your hand on your body or your heart even if you like. And take it in and then begin to realize that you can wish this for yourself. May I behold all of the joys and sorrows of my life. With tenderness and kindness.

1:53:49 May I hold my struggles with compassion. May I be filled with loving kindness and loving awareness. May I be safe and protected. May I be well. Strong or healed.

1:54:03 And as you repeat these simple intentions that have been done for thousands of years. It's as if your cells are listening, and this is the research of people like Liz Blackburn and Alis Apple who Liz Blackburn got the Nobel Prize for discovering the telomerase and uh the telomeres at the end of the caps and the DNA.

1:54:26 It turns out that your cells listen. to your heart and the to your intention that consciousness affects your body. And little by little Even though the it can bring up its opposite, I hate myself, I've never be good enough, and you see all those and you say Thank you for trying to protect me.

1:54:42 I appreciate that. May I be well, may I be safe, may I be held in love. And little by little like water on a stone. It starts to soften. Yeah.

1:54:52 Places that are holding Your lack of self forgiveness, your lack of Care. And loving kindness starts to grow in you. And it's a very beautiful practice. There's lots of places you can find it on my

1:55:05 In my work and Teachers like Sharon Salzburg and Emma Chodron and Tara Brock and So for it. Do you have any guided loving kindness meditations or audio that you can recommend people listen to?

1:55:18 I do. They can go on my website, chackcornfield.com. I think they will be on there. I do know for sure. I have a whole series of great programs with Sounds True. Sounds true dot com. That include

1:55:31 Meditations on the mind vast of sky, meditations on compassion and loving kindness. And I did a book. One of the books I've done is called A lamp in the darkness. And it contains I think eight or nine different

1:55:46 guided practices that you can get either with it on the CD but you can get it at the download basically. And Sounds true also has that and has a compassion practice and a Grounding practice in a vast sky like mine practice and so forth. So you can look for all of those. The beautiful thing is that you can learn this and

1:56:04 I was couple of years ago invited to be part of the first White House Buddhist Leadership gathering. There were a hundred and twenty Buddhist leaders from around the country from different communities. I don't think that's gonna happen again very soon, but there it was.

1:56:20 One good hope. And um Most of the communities did beautiful things that were involved in Soup kitchens and tending the homeless and projects to support healing for

1:56:32 Whether it was malaria, other diseases um in different other parts of the world and so forth. All kinds of great Stuff. And Certainly meditation. And when I got to talk, which was kind of a summary talk.

1:56:45 Toward the end of it. I mentioned that In this historical record. Whether it's true or not. The text and so forth. describe the Buddhing with kings and princes and ministers and so forth. And probably if the Buddha were

1:56:59 were around now, he would go to the White House if he were invited. He certainly would have met with Obama and who knows now. And he had advice about wise society, which he would give to leaders, and he'd say If you can train your People. To meet one another with respect, to listen with respect to differences.

1:57:18 And two Come together peacefully, listening to one another, then your society will prosper and not decline. And if your society Tends the barble among them. The young people, the old people, those who are sick.

1:57:31 It will prosper and not decline. And if your society tends to Environment around it. in a healthy way. It will prosper. Not decline. These are principles of compassion and wise society.

1:57:43 That you could read perhaps in a number of great traditions from the Iroquois nation or from the Taoist Sanges. But here's the beautiful piece. Yes, these are good things, meeting and harmony and discussing in harmony and being respectful for one another and so forth.

1:57:59 There are practices. that you can teach and learn That develop this capacity. So that in our elementary schools now You know, through organizations like Castle, which is a consortium

1:58:14 For social and emotional learning that's worked in You know, ten thousand schools. Kids learn social and emotional learning. They learn compassion. And it changes their lives. They're better academically.

1:58:27 And all these kids carry the troubles of our times. They hear the news, they see the trum well even in their own family. To teach you how to stir your own heart. From when you're young. And then these capacities are now being incorporated as we know, mindfulness based stress reduction. In clinics and hospitals and businesses in

1:58:45 There's the mindfulness teachers. When the Seattle Seahawks won the championship where the The Chicago Bulls and the LA Lakers when there were championship teams, they had a They had a meditation coach, a mindfulness coach, George Mumford, a good friend. And that these

1:59:01 capacities can be learned wherever we are and they transform our life. It's not just by accident or that you had this beautiful experience on the mountains or Making love. But you can make that a live. For you.

1:59:14 Through these trainings every day. Every part of your life. Jack, there was a question I was planning on asking at some point anyway, and I think this is a good segue, which is How can you get a busy person hooked on mindfulness practice? You know, what would be a first step or how to start? And since we're talking about loving kindness, I would like to give a bit of a hard sell for loving kindness meditation is one option because

1:59:39 I recall Perhaps it was two years ago I was really beating myself up and for people who don't know this about me. I've spent the majority of my life being my own worst enemy in terms of inner dialogue. Me extremely brutal and hypercritical and loathsome of myself. In in so many different respects. And I was going through a particularly intense

2:00:01 and difficult time with that inner critic. Just ruthlessly. Beating myself up. And at that point Another friend of mine, Chaid Mang Tan, who

2:00:12 created the search inside yourself classic Google. He was a very early on engineer. which became w the most oversubscribed class for employees at Google, recommended that I take a look at Loving Kindness Meditation. And and I didn't have any particularly sophisticated approach to it, but I decided with nothing to lose and that I was having so much trouble during that period sitting still And trying to focus on, say, the breath or anything like that. that at night this was happened to coincide with book deadline, probably

2:00:42 not pure coincidence that my beating myself up was exacerbated during that time. That was f a few years ago. And I began at night. In my case. when I would take a a shower at night or sit in a sauna, I ha I I very often go to hotels to write, which is something Maya Angelou and a a few others convinced me might be a good idea. That I would Consider two people.

2:01:03 Just like you had mentioned, two people I really cared for and wish them well. That's all I did. And Chad had said to me, Meng is usually what I would call him. that at one point a woman in one of his classes had done this for one day at work, every hour on the hour, she would just look out of her office and wish someone well that she could see in her mind's eye for sixty seconds or so. And she said it was her best day of work in seven years. And I found that unbelievable. So I decided to try it myself. And that week of just spending maybe two to four minutes at night before going to bed.

2:01:38 ended up being one of the most blissful Weeks. in memory, certainly at that point in several years, it was really profound and I couldn't pick out any other variable that had changed. So for me, I just want to for people who are listening and saying, ah, you know what, I'm type A driven, super hyper competitor. This doesn't apply to me. That It very well.

2:01:59 could apply to you and that by Taking a little bit of the harmful edge off, you don't automatically remove your competitive edge and In fact, I would argue just as you mentioned that the bulls and so on used to have Or still do, but used to have a mindfulness coach.

2:02:16 for competitive advantage that it can be another tool in your toolkit and doesn't Take you out of the way. the game, so to speak. It just makes you more aware of the games that you're playing. So That's a long sort of infomercial sales pitch that I wanted to just make sure I got in.

2:02:32 Because I discounted a lot of these practices for a very long time because I thought it would at best be a waste of time and at worst Take away some of my skills or tendencies that allowed me to get to where I am.

2:02:47 So that is more of a confessional than a question, but I would love to hear your thoughts, any additional thoughts on loving kindness meditation, but also any additional thoughts on how if you wanted to get a busy maybe even impatient person hooked on mindfulness practice. What first steps or approaches you might suggest? So a lot of different

2:03:09 Questions sort of woven into what you said. And the first is that there's a kind of misunderstanding in our culture that love is a weakness. And it's not. There is a way in which It's

2:03:21 The force. That can probably the only force that can meet the level of aggression or violence and other such things that are happening in You know, in the world. It's the power that lets mothers lift cars off their children.

2:03:35 Or to let somebody like Dr. Martin Luther King stand after his church was bombed and children were killed. And say we will meet your physical violence. With soul force. We will not harm you, but we will love you so deeply That we will not only transform ourselves, but we will transform you.

2:03:54 In the process. And so the notion that love is somehow a weakness. I think we do everything out of love. We wanna be loved, even in our you know ambition and our desire for Success. Underneath it.

2:04:08 is you know we want to be well we want to be find our happiness And that's part of love, so it's it's actually a power. And my colleague and friends. Wes Snysker went to interview Gary Snyder. Couple of years ago.

2:04:22 Gary is a Pulitzer prize winning. Oh it. and environmentalists for fifty years been writing about bioregionalism and one of our great Kind of. Elders in this.

2:04:33 environmental movement. He said, Gary, what do you have to say to us now? The oceans are rising, the world climate is changing Hotter and hotter the species extinction. Gary looked back and he said Don't feel guilty.

2:04:48 If you're gonna say that Don't save it out of guilt or anger or fear. Those are the very things That are actually making the world worse. Save it'cause you love it. Because it's part of you.

2:05:01 Power Whether you're starting a company But also it's not just that you, you know, some vision of okay, now I'm gonna become this wealthy playboy or whatever You know, zillionaire. Then what does your life mean for you?

2:05:16 And what do you really want? And when you listen there is something in you and it's part of your birthright. To both be able to Give your gifts. But also to love and be loved in return. And it's turns out that it's a power. So then what you talk about is

2:05:31 That It doesn't take much to begin the training. And you're, you know, two minutes or four minutes in the evening or this woman at her work. Taking once an hour. Thirty seconds or a minute. To look

2:05:43 And Somebody there. And offer a well wishing Can transform Everything.

2:05:50 For people who want the practical support because it is hard to do on your own. If you go to sounds true dot com and look up the programs that I have. First, there's a forty day program called Mindfulness Daily. Which is fifteen minutes a day or twelve minutes a day, depending on the segment. The book gives instructions in mindfulness, loving awareness, and loving kindness practice.

2:06:14 And It's twelve or fifteen minutes a day. And by the end of those forty days You really have learned the inner skills. And then it builds up. There's then a deeper training called power of awareness. And for those who are interested, we're About to open an online teacher training for people interested in mindful

2:06:30 Passing along mindfulness and loving kindness to others. Jack, just to interject for one second, for people listening, I will also link to all of these resources in the show notes, which you can find at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. So you don't necessarily have to remember all these things. You can go to the URL and uh we will have direct links to these resources. Sorry to interrupt, Jack. Just wanted to mention for people listening. And with it then there is also of the programs there, there's one called Guided Meditations that's you know A download it's like ten bucks or something. And it has a loving kindness practice, compassion practice, a forgiveness practice.

2:07:06 I think it may even have a joy practice. And it's really helpful to have guided meditations at first,'cause otherwise your attention We have a very short attention span in modern society. Albert Einstein, at least according to scientific American S

2:07:21 If you can drive safely while kissing a girl, You're simply not giving the KISS the attention it deserves. And we are in this kind of multitasking world with our devices and we've forgotten how to tend our own hearts. We've forgotten how in some ways to really be present for One another. And more importantly, for our own life.

2:07:44 And so getting guided meditations is tremendously helpful. And doing these little mini practices that you talk about one minute, two minutes, several Times a day. Can transform you.

2:07:57 I was just gonna mention to people also if you look at behavioral change, if you look at B J Fogg, formerly of the Persuasion Laboratory at Stanford you look at dietary change, any of these things Doing less than you think you're capable of doing. is a really good long term strategy I mean in terms of starting off rigging the game so that you can win in the beginning. So that your pass fail mark in your mind is a really, really low hurdle. So I just wanted to reiterate

2:08:23 Guided meditation. Don't white knuckle in the beginning. Like make it as easy as possible. The same principle from ancient You know, text say That you start in the easiest way. For some people, kindness for themselves seems impossible, but then you pick a child you care about or someone else. Or even when you do go to yourself, you think of yourself when you were an innocent child.

2:08:44 And wish yourself well. The game is to do whatever naturally opens The gateway. Whatever's the easiest for some people is their dog. You come home and the most nonjudgmental being in their life wags its tail and loves you and it doesn't care, you know. What's going on in your head.

2:09:01 So you take the avenue that most naturally opens Your heart. And then you do this just a little at a time, as you said, and it doesn't take long. But the other thing that's important. Is that sometimes as you do it

2:09:14 It can actually Display or show you the hypercritical nature of your mind, the shame that you carry. The self judgment or self loathing. And so

2:09:25 Then you say, Well what do you do then? Or it brings up its opposite. Is that the place that you just breathe and hold all that stuff with kindness.'Cause this is our humanity. And we all have some of that. And the point isn't to get rid of it or judge yourself for having it or try to fix it.

2:09:42 It's almost as if you put your hand on your heart and you say you know. This is like mindful self compassion or deep training. This is part of the measure of struggles that I've been given like every human being.

2:09:55 These things have tried to protect me and now I can hold them with tenderness. And say, All right, you know, thank you, but I don't need your help anymore. I can be kind to myself. And in that way you're not trying to Fix yourself or perfect yourself. If anything, you're trying to perfect your love.

2:10:11 Jack, I wanted to give you Uh credit. for help that you gave me and also tactical advice that you gave me during the ten day silent retreat. W you gave me a lot, but I wanted to I wanna highlight one that's related to what you just said. I was going through a a very, very difficult time, particularly

2:10:32 And You gave me the advice that you just mentioned. And there's one component I wanna really underscore for people and that is when you're, for instance, trying to do loving kindness meditation and instead you get the opposite or you get this self ridicule, who are you to

2:10:49 try to meditate in this self indulgent way. This is ridiculous. Or this voice starts to pop up that is angry or hateful, whatever it might be. The process of not simply dismissing it. Yeah. Fighting against it. But

2:11:06 recognizing it as a coping strategy that helped you in the past in some way, that you developed because In my case, you know, the rage was a fuel that without which I w probably would never have left Long Island, where I had friends who later overdosed on opiates and so on. So it it it was a gift in a way. and a tool and as you said, you can thank that

2:11:31 Response. Or that part of yourself and then put it And I remember you recommended even Visualizing and

2:11:39 Please correct me if I'm wrong or elaborate, but visualize taking that part of you that is a coping strategy, thanking it and then putting it, say, on a shelf. Where You can use it later if need be, along with, say, other icons or figures who Whether it's Buddha or other that you recognize as wise.

2:11:57 And then continuing with the meditation. So that thanking that part of yourself for the function that it once served, even if it is not serving you now. was such a key insight. for me that then helped me to manage my internal states or Or observe and

2:12:14 appreciate my internal states for the next several days where I really felt like I was lost at that point. So that was a really direct tool that helped me tremendously. Yeah, thank you. for bringing it up'cause it's so important for people. When we

2:12:29 Come to that hypercritical shame place. We feel very vulnerable and we've been identified with it. And because you needed it, I needed these things for survival. And if you try to get rid of this stuff You just end up in a fruitless battle against yourself and it's just more judgment.

2:12:45 So what you described as saying Thank you for helping me survive. I appreciate it. Let me put it on the shelf or the altar. I'll put it in the lap of The Buddha or whoever you know the Goddess of infinite compassion, you hold it for me. If I need it, I'll pull it back. And that sense That this isn't who you are.

2:13:03 It doesn't describe who you are, it isn't who you are. It was a strategy Because we're vulnerable beings and you were tender as a child. And you had to make sure you could survive. Thank you for that.

2:13:14 And now I have a different capacity. And let me just talk about that capacity a little bit, because the capacity for presence And the great heart of compassion that's said to be your birthright is a really mysterious thing. Talk about identity. And when my Youngest brother's wife Esther. was dying of cancer.

2:13:37 And she is just a beautiful being and I spent quite a bit of time with her and with my brother. She was close to dying, I've gone home to sleep. And I wanna get up early and hurry back'cause it was very close. And I uh

2:13:51 Got my car. I had to stop at the drugstore, pick up a prescription. Hurriedly running. Dashing through the aisles and so forth. And with the check out counter. And all of a sudden my whole body relaxed.

2:14:03 And I thought oh Esther died. I got out to the car. I Called my brother.

2:14:09 I said, How's it going? He said, Oh, Esther died. A few minutes ago. I said I know. You know, I'll be there shortly. We've all had these experiences. If I ask in a room how many have had this particular kind where you knew

2:14:23 Someone died when they died. You know. A quarter of the hands will go up. Why is this? It's because who we are is not this body.

2:14:33 We are the consciousness itself. And so with all these practices. What they allow us to do is to step out of what's called the small sense of self or the body of fear. And reconnect with the

2:14:46 Field of connection, of interdependent, of compassion. And to take our history and to honor it. But not be bound by it. Is it Ramdas again, that's wonderful. Spiritual teacher. In the early years when he came back from

2:15:03 Being with his guru. In India. He was sitting up there And teaching you know, devotional practices and meditation practices and he had a beard and white robes and a

2:15:17 And beads and he's sort of in the guru outfit. And a woman in the front row raised their hand and say, Ramdas, Ramdas, aren't you Jewish? What's with this Hindu stuff? And Ramdoss said, Well yes, I am actually. I was Bar Mitzwood as as I was, too. And there are many things I love about the Jewish Spiritual tradition. The generosity of it, the

2:15:36 Kambala all did great. Teachings on the many stages and states of consciousness, the Hasidic masters who are like Zen masters. And then he paused and looked at and he said, But remember I'm only Jew on my parents' side.

2:15:49 And there was something both witty which he was, but also profound about it. Because we are not Just Are

2:16:00 parental history or or the historical circumstances of this place and body that we were born into. And something in us knows this. So that when you look at the there's a wonderful book that came out. last year or the year before called The Book of Joy. Which was a conversation between the Dalai Lama.

2:16:18 And Archbishop Tutu. And both of them have marvelous laughs. I think people go to Not just for the Tibetan teaching, some of which are

2:16:30 actually hard to understand. Or even the fact that he's this Nobel Prize winning World figure. I think people go to hear him laugh. That somebody who's carried so much

2:16:41 suffering from the loss of his The burning of temples and texts and all of those things. And he and Tumto had a week together when they were asked And this created this book.

2:16:54 How can you be joyful? How can you laugh? like this when you live through apartheid and the death of so many people around you And Dalama. I mean they they banter back and forth and Like brothers, so much has been taken from me. You know, they've taken our sacred text, they've taken our

2:17:13 Ability to make prayers in public, they Taken. So much of our culture. Why should I let them take my happiness? And then Tutu starts to laugh and giggle and say, You know, I've been through so much.

2:17:25 But I am not going to let myself live in that place. I'm gonna let myself live in that which affirms life. And in a kind of profound Joy. That we made it, that we're still alive, that we can contribute, that we can be here in this beautiful earth.

2:17:40 And this shift of consciousness. is what's needed for the world. Because we look honestly, no amount of Technology alone is gonna save us. nanotechnology and space technology and biotechnology and worldwide web internet computer or supercomputer technology.

2:17:58 It's gonna stop. Continuing warfare. And racism. And Tribalism and environmental destruction.

2:18:07 Those Are happening Based on consciousness of the human heart. And so we are now, you know, these we've made these enormous developments outwardly where you have the great library of Alexandria in your smartphone in your pocket. Along with a million, you know, cat.

2:18:23 But there it is. It's all in there. And then What we need is collectively To develop a transformation Inwardly of our inner life.

2:18:37 That is parallel to this enormous outer transformation. The chairman of the joint chiefs of staff some years ago said we are a nation of nuclear giants. an ethical entrance. You know. You know how old I don't know how old humanity is, but it's time to grow up. So that this work that we're talking about Is both individual

2:18:57 But as you learn to meet your own life. With greater understanding and compassion. It empowers you to move through the world in a different way. And to help others. Do the same.

2:19:09 And then you get that kind of joy of tutu in the Dai Lama that you're somehow part of an awakening that humanity Now needs more than ever. Jack, I'd love to Ask you

2:19:20 These interviews are always driven by some self interest. I always have some issue or challenge or problem that I'm trying to figure out. So I reach out to someone like you to help me do it, but I record the conversation. As we chatted about before we hit record, and you know this already, but The last several years have been very, very important for me in terms of addressing certain traumas in the last eight weeks in particular. have been transformative in a lot of beautiful ways.

2:19:47 And the duration of periods. within which I don't berate or attack myself. have become longer. But There are still times when the wheels fly off.

2:19:59 the car and this last week has been one such example. And I tend to when I make a mistake or feel like I'm backsliding or relapsing. to compound the problem by beating myself up. Then I beat myself up about beating myself up and you know where that goes. So let me paint a picture. So I've I found out recently that my Japanese host father and I've been in touch with this family since I was fifteen. I'm very, very close to them, forty now.

2:20:25 And I found out that he just was admitted Because the host mother sent me an email. to the hospital with liver cancer. They don't have the details yet. I just sent a follow up email. They don't know what the prognosis is exactly, but Needless to say, the worst case scenarios are certainly being conjured in my mind or the potential of those.

2:20:45 And uh then simultaneously have been contending with and I believe you have some experience with this uh contending with a what should be a very simple construction project of a cabin. Up in the mountains. And it has been delayed and delayed and delayed and there have been cost overruns and cost overruns and cost overruns and promises made, promises broken, expectations set, expectations missed.

2:21:11 And a friend of mine called with a whole new slew of problems yesterday related to this place and I lost my shit, for lack of a better term. I mean there are there are many other things going on simultaneously, but I got really pissed and I was like, You know what? This extending the olive branch being understanding. Can't Gambit is not working with these people. Like I need to I need to take out the baseball bat and like pull old Tim off the shelf, who is just this like juggernaut head through brick walls and be like, listen, fuck face, like if you don't do A, B, C, D, and E here, well, these are gonna be the consequences. And then I'm like, well, wait.

2:21:44 I'm supposed to be compassionate, but how do I not be a pushover? And it turns into this big dramatic play inside my head and then I wait this is gonna end soon. I'm not gonna keep going, but what I then often do is self medicate with caffeine. And I think it's a way of feeling productive without actually being productive and it also

2:22:05 creates so much volume on the noise, I think I use it to tune out. A lot of feelings. So when Someone's relapses or has this kind of experience

2:22:17 What do you suggest to them? I mean, is there a particular Pattern interrupt or approach that you've found helpful for regaining footing? Oh, so there's a number of things to say. First of all. You could call it relapsing or you could just call it Yeah.

2:22:37 Beloved poet in Japan was a Zen master named Ryokan. And there's a two line verse of his that I Particularly. Fine fitting for this. Where he wrote.

2:22:48 Last year a foolish monk. This year. No change. You know? And you can sort of feel the humor and the tenderness in it. And there's a way in which you see your personality the point, you know, you have a body, you have this particular body you're born, and you can transform it in certain ways.

2:23:05 within the limits of the body that you were given. And similarly you have a personality and anybody who has a number of kids realizes that you don't come in tablarasa that you actually This kid is born and has this kind of temperament. So we have personality. And just like you don't want to look too closely to the body sometimes.

2:23:22 You don't want to look back closely at the personality either. You know, it has its foibbles and its fears and all of that. And so you start to kinda look at it and say, Oh, now there's a really good example of how neurotic I can get. Thank you. Thank you for reminding me. You know, and then you get a little sort of like the keeper of the zoo, a little more tender with those kind of creatures. It's bringing in the nonjudgment or the loving kindness for the way that you actually are.

2:23:49 And not your ideal or bringing compassion. You could say, Yeah, this is a tough one and this triggered. I got triggered. So what? No, the other thing is that I have the same experience where we had a Some years ago. raising my daughter and in my first marriage. And we were supposed to go and

2:24:09 Teach and travel in Europe and this guy. Good contractor, but you know, everything of course gets more expensive and you have to do this. And it kept getting slowed down. I said, You were gonna get this done so we could make these decisions before into your And it's not happening. You've gotta hurry up.

2:24:23 I do that like three or four different times and it doesn't happen. Finally I go in. I get Pist? And I say, Listen. You said this in our contract was gonna be done by the and if you don't fucking get this done by the time of I'm gonna paw your ass in court and sue you.

2:24:38 'Cause I need this done. And I'm not gonna pay you the goddamn money. He looked at me and he said, Oh, you really want this done, don't you? I'm not sure. Next day there's a huge crew. It starts to get done. And I realized okay, what I've been sort of talking meditation speak. Yeah, nice. Get it done.

2:24:56 He was a fucking contractor. And I missed it to I had to speak contractor ease. Get the goddamn job done or I'll say. Okay, I get I get it. Yeah, I'll I'll send the team over.

2:25:08 And that's all it took. So there's something playful about that as well. It's not that you can't I've seen the Dalai Lama get angry at people. It's not that you can't use that power. And that understanding

2:25:21 When it's necessary. To get to be very strong or forceful. And you don't have to judge yourself unless you hurt people. And then of course that's the misuse of it. But it's just it's part of being human. Is there something you say to yourself

2:25:35 I don't know. You are Certainly in person and any with any contact I've had with you. One of the most Compassionate people I've ever met. And I

2:25:45 Don't use that word very much, but you're presence of listening and being with someone is really Incredible. I don't know how much of that is intrinsic versus trained, but for better or for worse, you're coming out of the womb, I've been very impatient since day one. So I worry about

2:26:05 I can get It seems like my default is speaking contractories to More than just the The wayward contractor who's uh who's putting off work. Is there some when I feel that

2:26:22 the sensations of anger beginning to bubble up. Is there something That you would suggest as self talk or Just a temporary pumping of the brakes to Make it an informed decision versus just a lashing out. Well, I could give you an answer, but in a minute I'm gonna guide you in a little practice so that you can find the better answer.

2:26:43 First I just wanna say That That anger You know, yes, it's your habit or maybe your temperament. That's energy.

2:26:52 And there's nothing wrong with energy. You know, it's the power to let you do all the kind of things you've you've done in your life that are tremendously creative or resourceful or daring or whatever kinds of things. So you wanna respect Okay, I'm getting filled with energy. And you you know, it might be then you want to Flash out. But first you want to respect that energy. Wow, let me feel this in my body. Ooh, anger. How big is it? Woo.

2:27:14 Okay. Then your question is Then your question is. What can I do to modulate it? I could give you, you know, okay, take some breaths, ground yourself. Look at that other person, bla blah blah blah. But instead As we're talking

2:27:28 Let yourself Picture. a circumstance recently. It might have been with your you know, the contractor is doing your cabin or something else. You know that. Uprising of

2:27:39 The injustice of it. And how right you are. And now you're gonna get this goddamn done. And how you have to be hard and strong. You feel all that and feel the energy in your body. First thing is just remember what it felt like.

2:27:52 And now you're becoming the kind of mindful. loving witness of it and saying, Wow. This is a lot of energy. So can you feel that and remember that. Oh yeah. Now next oh yeah. Okay. Now next step.

2:28:05 is that The wisest figure you can imagine. Maybe it's the Buddha or Doesn't matter some great master or martial arts master. You know.

2:28:16 Who's mastered themselves as well as their art comes to you. And let yourself imagine somebody's gonna teach you. How to Manage this powerful energy. And see who appears. Somebody appears to you. Mm-hmm.

2:28:30 And first They look at you and they smile and they say, Yeah, this is the big energy. And they appreciate you, so instead of saying, Oh, you're a doofus. You know, they say, Oh yeah, you actually carry some powerful energy and they acknowledge that. They bow to you, Yeah, and you got it. All right. And then you say, Yeah, but how do I manage this when it takes me over?

2:28:50 And so this send master or whoever comes. Reaches under their robe. And pulls out A gift for you. Which is a clear symbol.

2:29:00 Of exactly what you need in that moment. To help you regulate it so that you can keep the energy But do it in a way that doesn't cause harm to you or another. And this clear symbol you'll be able to see it's just what you need. So let yourself picture the gifts that they put in your hand. And let yourself imagine, see, envision, picture.

2:29:20 What it is. And if you Can't see it clearly hold it up to the sunlight, you'll be able to. And then let me know what you get. You want me to tell you what it is? Yeah. Yeah.

2:29:31 All right. So the person who came to mind for me, I went through a few Was the Creator of Judo. Fascinating guy named Gigo Rocano, really small small guy.

2:29:42 Yes, who could who could throw all the big guys and smile at the same time. Right. Exactly. Changed a lot also in Japanese government. Fascinating guy. The symbol I don't know why this is, to be honest, but it's a Pyramid. The size with with with straight edges.

2:30:00 About a little too big to hold in your palm that is Blue. It's like almost a a mixture of sky pure sky blue, like uh bluebird blue. with a bit of Electric blue mixed in. And it's sort of a smoky vapor that's floating around inside this glass pyramid. I don't I have no idea why that's the case, but that's what came up.

2:30:23 All right. So we'll stay with it and then there's one more little piece. So he gives you this pyramid. Free associate a little bit on what it might possibly mean,'cause these symbols are like dream images and they come from a deep place in your psyche. And this pyramid has a message for you.

2:30:40 This blue. Just guess what it might be. I think it's very, very stable. It's an extremely stable structure. And

2:30:50 For me It also I could imagine it representing power also. It seems like a very powerful symbol in many different cultures, certainly. Yeah. The blue is a little easier.

2:31:01 For me, it's a very cooling, soothing color where Certainly red is the Right. high resonance anger energy. would be more of a red fire

2:31:17 element. So the blue would be a cooling or countering balancing force for that. All right, so now what I want you to do is imagine Taking this Blue Pyramid Gift.

2:31:29 Which represents A kind of extreme stability. And also a kind of power and cooling that's given to you by Gigarocano. Into your body.

2:31:40 So that there you are filled with this energy and anger, you know, the this huge wave of You let that be there. And you take this pyramid in And you let that energy be inside this stable, grounded

2:31:57 And feel what it's like. To be inside this blue pyramid with this energy and feel how it affects it. Just notice. As if there you're in that circumstance and now I'm remembering I am the blue pyramid.

2:32:09 And what does it feel like? The most Noticable thing. I wonder, of course, how much of this is the actual visualization versus the timeout that I permit myself to have, but there's Very often a tightness on the left side of my chest, right by the sternum.

2:32:27 Mm-hmm. Wound up. And that is Absent. After

2:32:36 taking this gift and then visualizing it being incorporated. That doesn't matter what you're practicing and you know, and and you know this very well in athletics that Yes, you practice things. But other times you also practice envisioning, whether it's playing piano or whether it's you know some Some Olympic training.

2:32:52 That some of the times you just do it Through visualization and it activates a lot of the same neural circuitry. So here you're starting to get the feeling What it's like to be in the middle of this Upwelling of

2:33:05 Anger. And so forth. And then taking a couple of breaths. And feeling the blue pyramid and the connection with the earth and the stability of it. And the power then

2:33:16 Oh that present. that cools you and allows the anger to be there, but not in the same uncontrolled way. Now there's one more thing. And that is if you imagine again

2:33:28 Gigarocano, I believe you said his name is He comes Up to you after giving you this gift. And he touches you kindly on the shoulder. And he has a few words of advice. of how to handle this powerful energy that comes up in you'cause he knows all about it.

2:33:45 And what does he whisper into your ear, kindly? Well, he whispers this came to mind immediately. He says Zenyo Kozenyo, which is you know, I still have this actually. They're two he has many famous quotes, but he he has what you might consider proverbs short aphorisms. that I've actually carried with me since I was fifteen, but they're packed away somewhere. I have two of them. They're on cloth. And

2:34:13 The first is Stomereba Kanara the Tatsu, which means basically if you If you work hard, you will achieve, you will reach your target. It's not the best translation, but that's the idea. The other one is Zennyo Kozenyo, which is Effectively. the most efficient use of energy, but it could also be the best slash

2:34:34 most benevolent use of energy. It's a principle of judo, but it's something that he applied. To everything, including education. So it would be That very short bite sized aphorism, which is And I'm sure some scholars probably disagree with me, but roughly translated here.

2:34:51 at least as I take it is the maximum or most efficient use of energy. So take that in, take his intentions, then you go Zenyo. The benevolent and efficient use of it. Feel the pyramid and now

2:35:06 Your assignment is that the next Five times. that this comes, which it will, maybe tomorrow or next week or so forth. Bring in the blue pyramids, stable Powerful cooling. So the energy's still there. And then you hear his voice say, Zenyoko, Zenyo.

2:35:22 And you go, Oh yeah, I can use this. But I can use it in a benevolent way. And try it five times, then um Text me. Let me know what happened.

2:35:32 Because now we're closing the loop. If you do it. And see now you now you're responsible if you agree that you're gonna do it. It sort of gooses the game a little bit. You go, Okay, now I I better do it'cause I have to let Jack know where you know what happened. Let me know what happens. Well, I'll be able to use it this week'cause I'm flying out to the site of this cabin to meet with everybody and see what the hell's going on. So I'll I'll have at least five opportunities to do that. You have you have your Zoom training ahead. Yeah.

2:36:00 Great. And then that you can hear in this rather than my giving you a cookie cutter answer. is that we actually have The wisdom that we're seeking or that's a

2:36:13 We have it in ourselves. I mean you didn't have to Flight it. Kyoto and getting your time machine to go back and see Gigaro Kao, you know, or whoever it happens to be, the Dalai Lama or whoever happens to come to you. The Buddha or some other great figure.

2:36:28 That actually The goddess of compassion. That we carry that wisdom in our own heart. And part of what these contemplative trainings do Is they give us access

2:36:40 Just by taking a little pause. It didn't take you either thirty seconds. Okay, he appears. What do I do? Ah, here's how my body would feel. What Perspective should I bring? Ah, here's efficient and benevolent use of energy. Okay.

2:36:53 Now I remember. So these answers For the questions of the psyche and the heart. Don't require Going somewhere.

2:37:03 They ask us to quiet. And begin to listen. And as you do You discover your own inherent wisdom. And your own compassion as well,'cause

2:37:13 The benevolent use that he Offers to you. Where does that live? It lives. And Tim.

2:37:20 It lives in you. One of the reasons I've wanted to have you on the podcast for so long is that For me you represent A very wide spectrum of tools. So you have developed a toolkit that it has enabled you

2:37:34 To work with everyone. from the seekers of, say, the Buddhist along the lines of the Buddhist traditions to say adolescents who are cutters to war vets with PTSD, missing limbs and so on, you've worked with a very diverse set Uh Students and uh patients maybe even.

2:37:53 And that leads me to my next question, which is After these experiences abroad, why did you decide to come back to the US? Period, and then why did you decide to go back to school and study clinical psychology. So after the first five years in Asia There were two other Westerners who had

2:38:12 become monks, it was a handful. And some were gonna stay for the rest of their lives. I'd learned a lot. And so that was kind of a choice. Am I just gonna stay? And I realized, no, I want a family.

2:38:25 I want a lover. I was a young man after all, and just the cell embassy for those years was actually pretty hard. I want to see if what I have learned really translates. Into the

2:38:38 Life back home. I don't want to just leave it. And so it was some wrestling, but it became very clear to me. That I wasn't fit for the monastery for the rest of my life. I had other not only other desires, but also and longings. But also we're real interest to say does this work elsewhere?

2:38:54 So I came back and thought, Well, what can I do? I got a couple of jobs and Right away. And of course what I knew how to do was be a student, but I was now a student of the mind and the heart. And I thought, Well, how do I learn more about what happened to me in the monastery? Oh, I'll study Western psychology.

2:39:12 And so that started me on that. Particular. Path. And I learned a lot of complimentary things. There's some very good drama work in the West that I've learned about that Really? enhances the compassion and loving kindness and

2:39:26 Mindfulness things that I learned in And Now I've done a lot of years of teaching Eastern Western psychology together. These principles that I've learned are spreading so widely in Western psychology. I went to the largest therapy conference in

2:39:41 The country. In December. And down in Anaheim. And gave a talk, and you know, here's a room full of three thousand or five thousand people.

2:39:49 And I ask how many of you have some experience of meditation or mindfulness practice and the majority of the hands went up. And that would not have happened, you know. twenty or thirty years ago. So

2:40:02 Eastern psychology is now becoming more invisible woven into the understandings of clinical psychology in the West and it's beautiful. Now I wanna say something else. You know, when you talk about working with a variety of population Yes.

2:40:18 People in prisons, yes, that's or kids coming out of gangs. But also CEOs and There's some dialogue that Bill Ford and I did. He was the that time the Chairman of Ford Voters. He was actually the CEO perhaps before that, but then he was he's the chairman of Ford Motors.

2:40:36 And he talks about it too. It was in um Two thousand and eight, I guess. When The auto industry was

2:40:45 Just about to melt down. He called. We'd had some contact he's a meditator. And he said, You know, I'm gonna lose my grandfather's company and maybe the whole industry on my watch. And it's hard to sleep, what can I do?

2:40:58 And we did loving kindness practices and f mindfulness practices together and so forth, and I gave him some Practices that he could use And it turns out that at whatever level you're on Whether you're incarcerated or whether you're a CEO or whether you're A returning that.

2:41:15 That these inner capacities that we have. To be present. Without getting loss to bring a an understanding attention to these energies, just as you were doing with anger in our cells.

2:41:28 are really, really liberating. And sometimes what's needed like for the vets or the People coming back from the war is Also a kind of forgiveness practice in trauma work. And we'll come together and

2:41:41 You know, they'll say things like, I can't tell you what I saw. Because in fact People don't want to hear the horrors of war. They can't tell the story and if they do often they re traumatize themselves. And the people around them.

2:41:54 Couldn't bear. Yeah. But there's something worse. Because they'll say. I can't tell you what I had to do.

2:42:02 And so it's locked up in their hearts, you know, and then what do they have? They can drink or they can distract themselves or Getting blind rages periodically. But if you get a room of returning combat vets and hold it with A proper space of understanding and compassion.

2:42:20 Not only Can they tell their stories, which they've never told or But they can listen to one another and say, Oh yeah, I've been there. And all of a sudden they're not so alone anymore. And that release

2:42:34 Oh the weight on their heart. So there's a social dimension to trauma where we need to tell the story. helps them release also what's carried in their nervous system and in their body and there's some Some correlation between those two together. that becomes very powerful.

2:42:49 And we need that we need I do a lot of teaching of forgiveness practice and self forgiveness. Those are also on those. Guided meditations that I teach. And for a lot of us, self forgiveness. Like self compassion. becomes a very, very important

2:43:04 Way to liberate ourselves from What we had to do to survive in the past. So that we're actually free. How do you set the stage, for instance, with those vets?

2:43:16 What do you say to them or what exercise might you do? That opens the door for them to share these stories. So a couple of images, one with gang kids and then one with vets. For gang kids. who come in or these kids who are trying to get out of gangs and might come with a mentor or something like that to some events we've had.

2:43:35 And you get these guys and they're you know their hoods are up and their hats are on backward and they're leaning back and saying, Like, come on, man, you're gonna teach us meditation, you're gonna teach us give us some poem stories or bit Listen, Ed we're out on the street. People got nine millimeters, you know, you gotta give us something better than that. So we try to make a setting.

2:43:55 That honor is a Who they are. from the very beginning or say, Well we can't talk yet about the real things that we came here to do. 'Cause there are too many people in this room who have not been acknowledged and not been respected. So when you go out in the parking lot

2:44:13 And pick up a stone for every young person you know who's been killed. And we light one candle and put it in the center of a table. Say bring it back in and say their name and put their stone by this candle. The simplest possible ritual. And these guys and sometimes gals will come in.

2:44:30 And their hands are full of stones. No young people should know that many dead people. And they'll say this is for Tito and this is for R J and this is for home girl. And pretty soon. There's a mound of stones.

2:44:45 And the names of People they lost. Work. Fabric of the air of that room.

2:44:53 And their hoods are no longer over their heads. They're sitting up like okay, this is the place where we can talk about what's really going on. So there's something about making whether it's through The simplest ritual Or making a container.

2:45:06 In which people realize that this is a safe place. to talk about what we've never done before. With the vets, one of the things that Michael Mead, Luis Rodriguez, these guys from Mosaic Multicultural Foundation that I'd worked with for years and are really wonderful. Michael who's in you know A great drummer and a

2:45:24 They'll say, Let me tell you An ancient story of returning warriors. And he has a handful of stories from Africa or Tibet or the Mayan tradition. About warriors coming back.

2:45:42 You know, with their hands covered with blood. And you know, their eyes have filled with the martial energy that they would that they can't stop the violence'cause it's taken them over. And here's A myth or a story.

2:45:55 that tells about how ancient warriors were brought back into their community. I'll tell you the myth if you want to hear one of them. Oh yes, please. So here we are. You know, and there's these vets and already stories have started to pour out about I can't tell you what I saw, I can't tell you what I had to do. And Michael stood up and he said, Let me tell you an old Irish story of a

2:46:17 An Irish warrior named Coco Lane, or I'm not sure how his name is pronounced, something like that. And he was the most Fierce and famous of all Irish warriors. And the Irish warriors were madmen. Because they would go out they'd paint their bodies and they'd go out naked and sometimes you just see them coming and you run the other way.

2:46:36 But anyway, there was some rotting. King and army that had come. to threaten their area and so co Koolane went out. And almost single handedly chased them and defeated them. But then he was coming back.

2:46:49 To his own town. In a chariot. Covered with blood. And his eyes blazing. Bearing down on his own town still

2:46:58 Possessed with the violence of war. With the god Mars. And they were all terrified he would come and Do violence there too. And so they what can we do? What can we do?

2:47:09 And uh They went to ask the old wise woman in the village. And she said three things. And so the first thing they lined up all the women in the village. Who bare their breasts.

2:47:20 And this slowed him down. As if it reminded him of his mother's milk or something. And because it was slowed down, then the second thing they did. Was take a rope. And tie it around him.

2:47:32 And put him in a Huge cauldron of cold water which hissed off his body. And then they filled it three times with cold water. And finally his body cooled down. And then the third thing they did

2:47:45 Yeah. Yeah. Still bound. And they lay him on a carpet in the court of the local king. And they sang to him the stories and myths and songs.

2:47:57 Of warriors. who had protected the kingdom and then come back. And released the violence and the fears. That they carried. And planted their crops again and love their

2:48:11 Families. And resume living in harmony with the community from which they came. And they told the ancient stories and sang the songs for three days and nights. And when it was over co cooling. Eyes opened, they let his they untied him.

2:48:26 And he was back as a normal human being again. And after Michael told this story to that who'd been telling terrible Accounts of things that happened in this room. A hundred men stood up and we'd been working with a simple African chant, a song. It was really an African chant of

2:48:46 A prayer, you know. Earth hold me for this living is hard. We all sang to the vets. Together. For a long time. As if we could sing them back into their bodies.

2:48:58 From this as if they were lying there in the Court of the King. How do you make a setting? That allows People.

2:49:08 to truly feel that they can tell their stories. And be held in compassion. Whether it's the grief of these gang kids. that no one's really given a place to give voice to. You know, or the that who says I can't tell you what I had to do.

2:49:23 That's very Powerful And it it makes me Also Think back to

2:49:30 Conversations I've had with Sebastian Younger, who is Journalist as co produced and shot a number of really harrowing documentary films, including Restrepo, and most recently wrote a book

2:49:47 Called Tribe. That touches on some similar topic area. Um Leads me to ask you

2:49:54 Are there any rites of passages or rituals that you feel Would be useful for every man or woman to experience. And this is something that I've felt a longing for and a lack of. since my teenage years. I'm not Jewish, did not have a bot mitzvah, bar mitzvah. I don't know if that serves that purpose. In the Jewish tradition.

2:50:16 Necessarily, but Are there any rituals or rites of passage that you think we could use in let's just say the United States That would be helpful. Two

2:50:27 Whether it's a specific population, specific group or Yeah. So what you're talking about is a really big subject. It's a subject of initiation and Unfortunately bar mitzvahs at least when I was was a relatively lightweight and meaningless thing. You get up there and you

2:50:44 recite your Hebrew portion of the Bible and Now you're a man and they give you a bunch of presents and there wasn't a lot of meaning in it. The problem that you raise is that of the lack of initiation and what's too Is that it's been forgotten in our culture.

2:50:59 One of the few places you get initiation uh Is going into the military. That's an initiation. But a lot of these Gang kids, for example. They're trying to initiate themselves, which can't really happen. You need elders and you need it in a ritualized way.

2:51:14 But don't go on that you know, if you're a in the Maasai tradition in East Africa the Maasai people. As everybody's heard. You know, a young man at a certain age of fourteen or something. We'll go out.

2:51:27 And kill a lion. to prove that they're now an adult member of the society and that they're brave and That's part of their initiation. There were initiations for young women as well. It's not just in Africa. The Mayans had initiations.

2:51:41 And in Thailand when I Live there back. Starting in the nineteen sixties. At that point. Almost every young man and many young women when they reached

2:51:52 The age of nineteen twenty. they became a monk for three months or for a year. And lived in an austere way and it was part of their initiation. to learn both the inner life of themselves And also a kind of discipline.

2:52:05 We don't have it. And because of it, you know, kids are trying to initiate themselves on the streets by shooting somebody or doing something You know, that shows that they're brave, but it's not a lion, it's another person. Or it's Trying to get the attention of the others and say sh prove how powerful or strong they are.

2:52:23 So we desperately need these. And we need them built into our education and to our psychology. And I can't give you a simple answer. But one of the people who has the most intelligence about this

2:52:35 is a man, a colleague of mine named Michael Mead. And if you look on mosaic multicultural foundation His writings on initiation and what's possible here and The things he's led. Are very, very inspiring.

2:52:49 So that's a Place that I would look. That's a good starting point. Wonderful. I will definitely find that. Well, Jack, I think we could go for hours and hours and hours and I always love chatting with you and I love to perhaps even consider doing a part two sometime, but Given that we've already gone for two plus hours, I wanna ask just a few more questions.

2:53:09 And I'll actually start with just reading something very short, which is from your two thousand seventeen year end. Message. I think this is Just to inject some more.

2:53:21 Optimism. into our conversation, which we've already had plenty of, but uh This is just a small portion of your year and message. Martin Luther King Jr. describes our collective journey with hope. quote, the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice, end quote. And Pablo Naruto explains further You can cut all the flowers, but you cannot keep spring from coming.

2:53:42 Renewal is happening. This is back to your voice. Take quiet time to listen to your heart, to meditate, and to rest amidst the great turnings. Feel the renewal of spring that can be born in you. Align yourself with goodness. Let yourself blossom like a lotus or whatever unique flower you are, shining in the world, offering tiny seeds of love amidst it all. Blessings to you in twenty eighteen.

2:54:03 Jack. And I want this note. lead into

2:54:09 And certainly you're welcome to comment on that, but Which book you would recommend of yours people start with, or where they start with all of the many materials, recordings, readings that you produce because You're a Fantastic writer and a prolific writer. You have some of my favorite book titles I've ever heard, by the way, including After the Ecstasy, The Laundry, which maybe we could touch on, but where would you suggest people start? of the many things that you've written and shared with the world. And if you have any comment on that year end message, you're welcome to share that as well.

2:54:41 So For books, if you want something simple, I have books like you know, an introduction to meditation that Sounds True Publishes. Or I have a little book called The Art of Forgiveness, Loving, Kindness and Peace, which is very simple. stories and practices.

2:54:58 If you want something that's richer. And Fuller then you could look at one of my bigger books like A Path with Heart or The Wise Heart, The Guide to the Principles of Buddhist Psychology. And again, I think lots of stuff online and soundstrews. particularly a good place to go along with my website.

2:55:14 Then and that forty day mindfulness, mindfulness daily, which is it's like thirty bucks or something. Is a really wonderful way to start. In terms of what I had written. About the trusting heart. Tan tax.

2:55:30 from a thousand years ago says to be awakened or enlightened. is one with trusting heart and mind. And that doesn't mean that We won't go through hard times. We always have and we will again and we are now in many ways. But that we also have Born within us the capacity.

2:55:47 to meet these difficulties with Understanding. With courage, with compassion. And to transform them. And in that way, one of my favorite recent books

2:55:59 is called The Better Angels of Our Nature by Steven Pinker. And he's a remarkable professor, harboring anthropologist, historian. Talk about the growing consciousness of humanity in spite of the kind of wars and conflict and environmental things. There's so many good things.

2:56:16 That have happened. that he charged over the last few centuries of the development of certain abilities for peacemaking, there's actually less war than there'd been Respect for women, the reduction in Child labor, all kinds of things.

2:56:29 And in that same regard. There's a wonderful book called Bury the Chains. Which is about the ending of slavery in the British Empire. Starting with this handful of men. Who man and I'm British.

2:56:42 T shop or printing shop. And spent thirty years Riding around the country bringing ex slaves who are well spoken to talk about the middle passage and the Do you know the horrors of slavery. And so forth. And even though the British Empire's economic engine

2:56:58 Was built around slavery and sugar. By the end of their Work. Thirty years. The British Parliament

2:57:06 Outline slavery in the British Empire. You know, decades before it happened in the US and the Quakers were a big part of this, and the Quakers famously wouldn't take their hats off for the king. But when what is his name, Thomas Clarkson, who was the center of this group. trying to end slavery and going everywhere to do it.

2:57:27 When Thomas Clarkson died. All the Quakers of the England took their hat off. Because he freed so many spirits and so many lives. We have these amazing possibilities as human beings, and we're just growing into them now. Culturally.

2:57:42 And it's about time. They are possible. And we Each have a contribution to make in it. Jack, I'm gonna ask you one more question before we wrap up with

2:57:53 Just letting people know where they can find you on social media and elsewhere on the website and so on. But Last question is one I like to ask. This is Uh metaphor.

2:58:02 But If you could have a short Message on a billboard. In other words, get a message out to millions or billions of people. Could be a few words, one word, a phrase, a quote of yours, a quote of someone else's.

2:58:14 What might you put on that billboard? Well two things come to mind. One is a question that when I've sat with people many times at the end of their life That they then ask of themselves silently or how loud is Did I love Will?

2:58:29 Because in the end, what matters really The billboard would have a question rather than a statement. And it would have a question something like How could I love myself better? So that it actually it's not that I'm gonna tell them.

2:58:44 Something. They already know this. But I'm gonna remind Those who read that there is something that's asking to be awakened in them.

2:58:53 How could I love myself and this world better? Then you go, Well gets in the way of that and how can I love that too? How could I love myself in this world better? Well, Jack, I want to of course thank you for your time today, but Beyond that, I want to thank you and this is very

2:59:11 Very much from Deep in my heart. Thank you for helping me. to learn to love myself better and quite frankly

2:59:21 In the first place that is worth loving. where I've spent most of my life. So it's turned into If not my I hesitate to say my top priority because I'm I worry about sounding. self indulgent, but it's become one of the most important and fruitful Tasks in my life is

2:59:40 Asking that question, how could I love myself better, or how can I learn to love myself better. So thank you. Very, very sincerely for that. And the the words don't do it justice, but that's the best I can do right now remotely is to put it into words. So thank you for that. Thank you, Tim. This was a pleasure to do. And what I feel and I know

3:00:00 Is it as you Tend your own heart. In a wise way. Then it makes you available. to bring the gifts the many gifts you have to the world. You

3:00:09 Personally and others. But to do it in a way that's on a carrier wave of connection and love and it transforms everything. So thank you too. Well, Jack, I uh you know, I'm looking at a text thread of ours and I'm feeling the necklace around my neck, which is really a thread, a red threat that was used to close the One of the elements of the closing of the ten day silent retreat and I shot you a text not too long ago asking

3:00:34 what the three knots meant because I'd forgotten Uh and this is what you wrote back. First knot equals refuge in whatever you hold is most inspiring and sacred. Second Commitment to compassion for self and others. Third Following your highest intention. And

3:00:51 The intention that I said at the end of that ten day retreat was to learn to love myself. so I could love others more fully. But I realize that maybe what it is is learning to love myself so I can help others. learn to do the same. And you've been an integral piece of that.

3:01:09 And I Just love that I have the opportunity to introduce you and your work and these traditions to more people and I will certainly be linking to where everyone can find you online, but are there any particular best places just to reiterate where people can find you and I'll link to these in the show notes.

3:01:28 Jackhornfield.com. And also look up Jack Hornfield on Sounds True dot com for those programs that I talked about. And then spirit rock dot org, which is our great meditation center in the Bay San Francisco Bay area. Absolutely stunning, stunning, beautiful location. Worth visiting just to

3:01:47 Bathe in the scenery, but many more Reasons to visit as well. Well Jack, thank you again. And Thank you. Thank you, Tim. It's a pleasure. And to everybody listening.

3:01:57 You can find show notes, links to all the resources, books, and everything that we discussed at Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time. Thank you so much for listening. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. If you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend. Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out. every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcasts.

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