Ex-Google Exec (Mo Gawdat) on AI: The Next 15 Years Will Be Hell Before We Get To Heaven… And Only These 5 Jobs Will Remain!

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/4ae6193a0d1a50c7

The only way for us to get to a better place and succeed as a species is for the evil people at the top to be replaced with AI.
I mean, think about it. AI will not want to destroy ecosystems. It will not want to kill a million people. They'll not make us hate each other like the current leaders because that's a waste of energy, explosives, money, and people. But the problem is super intelligent AI is reporting to stupid leaders, and that's why in the next fifteen years we are going to hit a short term dystopia.
Escaping that. Having AI leaders is not even fundamentally possible. Let's put it this way. More Gauda is back. And the former chief business officer at Google X is now one of the most urgent voices in AI with a very clear message. AI isn't your enemy, but it could be your savior.
Love you so much, man. You're such a good friend.
But you don't have many years to live, not in this world. Everything's gonna change. Economics are gonna change, human connection is gonna change, and lots of jobs will be lost, including podcasters. No, no. Thank you for coming on today, Mario. But the truth is, it could be the best world ever. The society completely full of laughter and joy.
Free healthcare. No jobs, spending more time with their loved ones. A world where all of us are equal. Hundred percent. And I have enough evidence to know that we can use AI to build the utopian.
But it's a dystopia if humanity manages it badly. World where it's going to be a lot of control, a lot of surveillance, a lot of forced compliance, and a hunger for power, breed, ego. And it is happening already. But the truth is the only barrier between a utopia for humanity and AI and the dystopia we're going through is a mindset.
What does society have to do?
First of all.
J me thirty seconds of your time.
Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.
But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.
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Thank you.
Uh
No, two years ago today we sat here and discussed AI. We discussed your book Scary Smart and everything that was happening in the world.
Since then AI has continued to develop a uh
Tremendous.
Alarming.
mind boggling rate and the technologies that existed two years ago and we had that conversation.
have grown up and matured are and are taking on a life of their own, no pun intended. What are you what are you thinking about AI now, two years on?
I know that you've started writing a new book called Alive, which is I guess a bit of a follow on or an of evolution of your thoughts as it relates to Scary Smart. Mm-hmm.
W what what is front of your mind?
When it comes to AI.
So Scary Smart was shockingly accurate.
It's quite a I mean, I don't even know how I ended up writing.
Predicting.
th those things. I I remember it was written in twenty twenty, published in twenty twenty one.
And then
most people were like um who wants to talk about AI? You know, I know everybody in the media and I would go and do you want to talk and then twenty twenty three Chi PT comes out and everything flips. Everyone realizes you know this is not science fiction, this is here.
And uh and things move very, very fast, much faster than I think we've ever seen anything.
Ever move, ever.
And and I think my
Position has changed.
On two very important fronts. One is
Remember when we spoke about Scary Smart, I was still saying that
there are things we can do to change the course.
Uh and we could at the time, I believe.
Uh now I've changed my mind. Now I believe that we are going to hit a sh a short term dystopia. There's no escaping that.
What is dystopia?
I call it face R I P, we can talk about it in details, but the the the way we define m very important parameters in life.
are going to be uh completely changed. So so
Face R I Ps are, you know, the way we define freedom.
Uh
Accountability, human connection and equality economics.
uh reality
innovation and business and power.
That's the first change. So the first change in my mind.
Is that uh
Is that we
uh will have to prepare for a world that is very unfamiliar.
Okay, and that's the next twelve to fifteen years it has already started. We've seen examples of it in the world already, even though people don't talk about it. I try to tell people, you know.
There are things we absolutely have to do. But on the other hand, I started to take an active role.
in building amazing AIs.
So AI is a very good thing.
That will uh not only make our world better.
uh but that will
Understand us, understand what humanity is through that process.
What is the definition of the word dystopia?
So in my in my mind these are adverse circumstances that unfortunately might escalate beyond our control.
The problem is the uh there is a lot wrong with the um
value set with the ethics of humanity.
At the age of the rise of the machines.
And when you take a technology, every technology we've ever created just magnified human abilities. So you know, you can walk
At five kilometers an hour.
Mm-hmm. You get in a car and you can now go
You know, two hundred and fifty, two hundred and eighty miles an hour.
Okay, uh basically magnifying your mobility if you want. You know, you can use a computer to magnify your uh calculation abilities or whatever, okay?
And and what AI is going to magnify, unfortunately, at this time, is it's going to magnify the evil that man can do.
And and it is
Within our hands completely.
completely with our with in our hands to change that.
But I have to say I don't think humanity has the awareness.
Uh at this time.
To focus on this.
So that we actually
use AI to build the Utopia.
So
What you're essentially saying is that you now believe there'll be a period of dystopia.
And to define the word dystopia, I've used AI. It says a terrible society where people live under fear, control, or suffering.
And then you think will come out of that dystopia into a utopia, which is defined as a perfect or ideal place where everything works well, a good society where people live in peace, health, and happiness.
Correct.
So and the difference between them, interestingly, is what I normally refer to as the second dilemma.
which is the point where
We hand over completely to AI.
So a lot of people
think that when AI is in full control it's going to be an existential risk for humanity.
you know, have enough uh evidence to

that when we fully hand over to AI, that's going to be our salvation.
That the problem with us today
Is not
You know, that intelligence is gonna work against us.
It's that our stupidity as humans is working against us. And I think the challenges that will come
From humans being in control.
uh are going to outweigh.
Yeah.
The challenges that could come from AI being in control.
So as we're in this dystopia period, did you
Do you forecast?
The length of that dystopia. Yeah, I count that I count it exactly as twelve to fifteen years.
I I believe the beginning of the slope will happen in twenty twenty seven.
I mean it w we will see signs in twenty six. We've seen signs in twenty four, but we will see escalating signs.
next year and then a a a clear
Uh slip in twenty seven.
Why?
The geopolitical environment of our world is not very positive.
I mean you really have to think deeply.
About
Not the not the symptoms.
But the the reasons why we are living the world that we live in here in today.
Is money.
Right.
And uh and money for anyone who knows.
Who really knows money.
Money's you and I are peasants.
You know, we build businesses, we contribute to the world, we make things, we sell things, and so on.
Real money's not made there at all.

Lending.
And
Fractionary Zerve.
Right.
And and you know the biggest
Lender.
uh in the world would want reasons to lend.
And those reasons are
Never as big as war.
I mean, think about it, huh?
uh the world spent two point seven one trillion dollars on wear and war.
In twenty twenty four.
Right.
A trillion dollars a year in the US.
Mm-hmm.
And when you really think deeply, I don't mean to be
Scary here.
uh you know, weapons.
Have depreciation.
They depreciate over.
Ten to thirty years, most weapons. They lose the value.
They lose their value and they depreciate in accounting terms on the books of an army. The current arsenal of the US that's a result of a deep search with my AI Trixie.
You know, the current arsenal I think
We we think cost the US
twenty four to twenty six trillion dollars to build.
My
Conclusion is that a lot of the wars that are happening around the world today are a means to get rid of those.
weapons so that you can have it replace them.
And uh you know, when
when your morality as an industry is
We're building weapons to kill.
Then
You know, you might as well use the weapons to kill.
Who benefits?
The lenders and the industry.
But but they can't.
Make the decision to go to war.
They they have to wear the I remember I s I said that to you when we
I think on
On our third podcast.
What is decided first?
Then the story is manufactured.
You you never remember nineteen eighty four and the Orwellian approach of like, you know, uh freedom is slavery and uh war is peace, and they call it uh
something sp speak uh
Basically to to to
to convince people
That going to war in another country to fit to kill four point seven million people.
It's freedom.
You know, we're going there to free the Iraqi people.
Is war ever freedom, you know, to to tell someone that you you're gonna kill three hundred
thousand women and children is for liberty and for the the the you know for human values
Seriously, how do we ever get to believe that?
The story is manufactured, and then we follow and humans.
Because we're gullible.
uh we cheer up and we say, Yeah, yeah, yeah, we're
We're on the right side. They are the bad guys. Okay, so let me let me have a let me have a go at this idea. So the idea is that really money is driving
a lot of the conflict we're seeing and it's really gonna be driving the dystopia.
So here's an idea. So I am I was reading something the other day and it talked about how
Billionaires are are never satisfied because actually
What b a billionaire wants isn't actually more money, it is more status.
Correct.
I was looking at the sort of evolutionary case for this argument.
And if you go back a couple of thousand years.
Money didn't exist.
You were as wealthy as what you could carry.
So even to I think to the human mind the idea of wealth
And money.
Isn't a thing.
We've but what has always mattered from a survival of the fittest, from a reproductive standpoint, what's always had reproductive value.
If you go back thousands of years.
The person who was able to mate the most was the person with the most status.
So it makes the case the reason why billionaires get all of this money, but then they
Go on podcasts.
And they want to start their own podcast and they want to buy newspapers is actually because at the very core of hu human beings is a desire to increase their status. Yeah.
And so if we think of when we going back to the example of why wars are breaking out.
Maybe it's not money.
Maybe actually it's
Status.
And and it's
this pr prime minister or this leader or this, you know, individual wanting to create more power and more status, because really at the heart of what
matters to a human being is having more power and more status and money is actually money as a thing is actually just a proxy.
Of my status.
And and what kind of world is that?
I mean it's a fucked up one. All these men all these powerful men have uh correct are really messing the world up. But so can I can I can I can actually AI is the same.
Because we're in this AI race now where a lot of millionaires are like if I get
A GI artificial general intelligence first, then I basically rule the world.
Hundred percent. That's exactly the the concept, what I uh what I used to call the the the first inevitable, now I call the first dilemma, and scary smart is that
It's it's a race that
Constantly accelerates.
AI dystopia where things aren't I think the next twelve years are gonna be human dystopia using AI.
Human induced dystopia using AI.
And you
Define that by rise in warfare around the world as well.
A massive concentration of power and a massive distribution of power.
Okay, and that basically will mean that those with the maximum
Concentration of power are going to try to oppress those with.
with democracy of power.
Okay, so think about it this way.
In today's world.
Um unlike the past.
Yeah.
You know, the Hooties.
With a drone.
The Houthis are the Yemeni uh
tribes basically resisting US
power and Israeli power in the Red Sea.
Okay, they use a drone that is three thousand dollars worth.
To
attack a uh a warship from from the US or an airplane from the US and so on that's worth hundreds of millions.
Okay. That kind of democracy of power makes those in power
worry a lot about where the next threat is coming from.
Okay, and this happens not only in war, but also in economics.
Okay, also an innovation.
also in technology and so on and so forth.
Right. And so basically what that means is that like you rightly said, as
the the the tech oligarchs are attempting to get to A G I.
Mm they
wanna make sure that as soon as they get to AGI that nobody else has AGI.
And and basically
They want to make sure that nobody else has the ability to
Shake there.
Position of privilege, if you want.
Okay, and so you're going to see a world where unfortunately there's going to be a lot of control, a lot of surveillance, a lot of um
of forced compliance, if you want, or you lose your privilege to be in the world.
And and it is happening.
Ready?
With this acronym, I want to make sure we get through the whole acronym. So You like dystopians, don't you? No, I wanna do the dystopian thing, then I wanna do the Utopia. Okay. And uh ideally how we move from
Dystopia to utopia.
Mm-hmm.
The the the F in face RAP is the loss of freedom as a result of that power dial.
Right. So you have you you have a massive amount of power.
as you can see today in uh a uh one specific army being powered by the US uh funds and a lot of money.
Right.
Yeah.
Fighting against
Pheasants really that have no weapons almost at all.
Okay. Uh some of them uh are militarized, but the majority of the million two million people are not.
Okay. And so there is massive, massive power that basically says, You know what, I'm gonna oppress as far as I go.
Okay. And I'm gonna do
Whatever I want because the cheerleaders are gonna be quiet.
Right. Uh or they're gonna cheer.
More or even worse, huh? And so basically in in that
What happens is
max maximum power threatened by a democracy of power leads to a loss of freedom.
A loss of freedom for everyone.
Because h how does that impact my freedom?
Your freedom? Yeah.
V very soon uh you will
uh if you publish this episode, there you're gonna start to get questions around.
Should you be talking about this top those topics in your podcast?
Okay, uh you know, uh if I uh have been on this episode, then probably next time I land in the US, someone will question me.
Say why'd you say those things?
Which side are you on?
Right. And and and and you know, you can easily see that
Everything I mean.
I s I told you that.
Uh before, yeah.
Doesn't matter what I try to contribute to the world, my bank will cancel my bank account every six weeks.
Simply because of my ethnicity and my origin.
Right. Every now and then they'll just stop my can my bank account and say, We need a document.
Ma my other
colleagues of a different colour or a different ethnicity don't get asked for another document.
Right. But but but that's because I come from an ethnicity that is positioned in the world for the last
Thirty, forty years.
As the uh enemy.
Okay? And and so when you really, really think about it, hmm, in a world where everything is becoming digital, in a world where everything is monitored, in a world where everything is seen.
Okay.
We don't have much freedom anymore. And I'm not a I actually
uh debating that or or I don't see a way to fix that.
Because the AI is gonna have more information on us, be better at tracking out who we are.
And
Therefore.
That will result in certain freedoms being restricted, is that what you're saying?
This is one element of it. Okay. If you push that element further.
Mm-hmm.
In in v in v in a very short time, if you've seen agent, for example, recently, Manos or Chat GPT, there will be a time where you know you'll simply
not to do things yourself anymore.
Okay. You'll simply go to your AI and say, Hey, by the way, I'm going to meet Steven, can you please
You know, book that for me.
Great.
And and and yeah, and it will do absolutely everything. That's great.
until the moment where it decides to do things that are not motivated only by your well being.
Why would it do that?
simply because, you know, maybe if I buy a BA ticket instead of an Emirates ticket, some agent is gonna make more money than other agents and so on.
Right. Uh and I wouldn't be able to even catch it up if I hand over completely to an AI.
Uh go go a step further, huh? Think about a world where
Everyone.
Almost everyone.
is on UBI.
Okay.
Universal basic income.
I mean think about the economics, the E and face R IPs.
Think about the economics of a world.
where we're gonna start to see a trillionaire.
Before twenty thirty, I can guarantee you.
That someone will be a trillionaire.
I'm I'm you know, I think there are many trillionaires in the world today over there. We just don't know who they are. But there will be a new
Elon Musk or Larry Allison that will become a trillionaire because of AI investments.
Right? And and that trillionaire,
Will have so much money to buy everything.
There will be
Роботс НАІЗ дуюй Евритін.
And humans will have
No jobs.
Do you think that's a there's a real possibility of job displacement over the next ten years?
The
The rebuttal to that would be that there's gonna be m new jobs created in technology. Absolutely.
Crap.
Really?
Of course. H how ch how can you be so sure?
Okay. So again, I am not sure about
Anything.
So so let's just be very, very clear. It would be very arrogant.
Okay.
to assume that I know.
You just said it was crap.
Uh my my belief is it is hundred percent crap. Take a job like software develop.
Yeah. Okay.
Emma dotlava startup is me
Senate.
Another technical engineer.
And a lot of AIs.
Okay, that startup would have been three hundred and fifty developers in the past.
I get that. Um,
Are you now hiring in other roles because of that?
Mm-hmm.
You know, as is the case with
The
steam engine. I can't remember the effect, but there's you probably know that when steam and when coal became cheaper, people were worried that the coal industry would go out of business. But actually what happened is people used more trains. So trains now were used for transport and
other things and leisure, whereas before they were just used for commute for um cargo. Yeah. So there became more use cases and the coal industry exploded. So I'm wondering
With technology, yes, software developers are gonna maybe not have as many jobs, but there's everything's gonna be software. Name me one.
Maybe one more.
Job.
Maybe that's gonna be created?
Yeah.
One job that cannot be done by an AI.
Yeah.
or
My girlfriend's
breath work retreat business where she takes groups of women around the world
Yeah, and there's gonna be a greater demand for connection, human connection. Correct. Keep going.
So
there's gonna be more people doing community events in real life festivals
I think we're gonna see a huge surge in things like everything that has to do with human connection. Yeah. Correct. I'm totally in
With that.
Okay.
What's the percentage of that versus accountant?
It's a much smaller percentage for sure in terms of white collar jobs.
Now, who does she sell to?
Yeah.
People with probably what m probably accountants or something, you know. Correct. She she sells to people who earn money from their jobs.
Yeah.
Okay, so you have two forces happening.
One force is there are clear jobs that will be replaced. Video editor is going to be replaced.
Uh excuse me.
I love you guys.
is going to be place. But the truth is a lot so so you see the best at any job will remain.
The best software developer, the one that really knows architecture, knows technology and so on, will stay.
For a while.
Right, and you know, one of the funniest things I I uh uh interviewed Max Tedmar, and Max was laughing out loud, saying CEOs are celebrating.
that they can now get rid of people and have productivity gains and c cost reductions because AI can do their job.
The one thing they don't think of
Is
Yeah, I will replace them too.
A G I is gonna be better at than uh at everything than humans.
At everything, including being a CEO.
Right, and you really have to imagine that there will be a time where most incompetent CEOs would be replaced.
Most incompetent, even breath work.
Okay, eventually
There might actually one of two things hap be t two things be happening. One one is
Either
Uh you know, part of their job other than the top breath work.
Instructors.
Okay.
Uh are going you know, who are going to gather all of the people.
that can still afford to pay for the breathwork.
Yeah.
Mm uh they're going to be concentrated at the top. And a lot of the bottom
It's not going to be
working for one of two reasons. One is
either there is not enough demand because so many people lost their jobs.
So when you're on UBI, you cannot tell the government, hey, by the way, pay me a bit more for a breastwork class. UBI being universal basic income, universal basic income.
Money every month. Correct. And if you really think of freedom and economics.
Mm-hmm.
UBI is a very interesting place to be.
Because unfortunately, I as I said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with AI. There's a lot wrong with the value set of humanity at the age of the rise of the machines.
Right, and the biggest value set of humanity is capitalism today.
And capitalism is all about what? Labour arbitrage.
What's that mean?
I I I hire you to do something, I pay you a dollar, I pay it I I sell it for two.
Okay, and and most people confuse that because they say, Oh, but the cost of a product also includes raw materials and factories and so on and so forth. All of that is built is built by labor.
Right. So so basically labor goes and mines for the material and then the material is sold for a little bit of margin, then that material is turned into a machine, it's sold for a little bit of margin, then that machine and so on.
Okay, there's always labor arbitrage.
In a world where humanity's minds are being replaced by
uh by A AIs, virtual AIs.
Okay. And humanity's
Power.
Strengths.
Within three to five years' time.
can be replaced.
by a robot.
You really have to question how this world looks like. It could be the best world ever, and that's what I believe the Utopia will look like.
Because we were never made to wake up every morning and just
You know, occupy twenty
hours of our day with work.
Right.
uh uh you know system so
Well so far.
that we started to believe it's our life's purpose.
But we choose it.
We willingly choose it. And if you give someone
Unlimited money, they still
Tend to go back to work.
Or find something to occupy.
They find something to occupy their time with. Which is usually for so many people is building something, philanthropy, a business. So you build something. So between Sened and I.
Emma. What is that, sorry? Just for context. So so so you know It's a business you're building, just for the audience's context. Yeah. So so so the idea here is
I can it might become a unicorn and be worth a billion dollars, but neither I nor Zanad are interesting.
Okay? We're doing it because we can.
Okay? And we're doing it because it can make a massive difference to the world. And you have money though.
It doesn't take that much money anymore to build anything in the world. This is labor arbitrage.
But to build something exceptional, it's still gonna take
A little bit more money than building something bad.
For the next few years. So whoever has the capital to build something exceptional will end up winning. So so this is a very interesting understanding of freedom.
Okay, this is the reason why we have the AI arms race.
Okay.
The one that owns the platform.
is going to be making all the money and ca and keeping all the power. Think think of it this way. When humanity started
Mm-hmm. The best hunter in the tribe.
Could
Maybe feed the tribe for three to four more years, uh more days.
Mm.
And as a re as a reward you gained the favor of multiple mates in the tribe.
That's it.
The top farmer in the tribe.
could feed the tribe for a season more.
Okay, and as a result they got estates and
You know, uh and mentions and so on.
Mm. The best industrialist in the in a in a city.
could actually employ the whole city, could grow the GTP of their entire country.
And as a result, they became
Millionaires, the nineteen twenties.
Mm.
Now are billionaires.
Now, what's the difference between them?
The tool.
The hunter.
Only rema uh depended on their skills.
Mm and the automation, the entire automation he had was a spear.
The farmer.
Mm-hmm had way more automation. And the biggest automation was what? The soil.
The soil did most of the work.
The factory did most of the work.
The the network did most of the work.
And so that inc incredible expansion of wealth and power.
And as well.
Mm.
The i the incredible
impact that something brings is entirely around the tool that automates.
So who's gonna own the tool?
who's gonna own the the the digital soil, the AI soil, it's the platform owners.
And the platforms you're describing are things like OpenAI.
Gemini.
Brock.
These these are interfaces to the platforms. The platforms are all of the
uh the uh um tokens, all of the compute that is in the background, all of the uh all of the uh uh methodology, the systems, the algorithms. That's the AI itself.
You know, Groc is the interface to it. I think this is probably worth explaining in layman's terms.
to people that haven't built AI tools yet. Because I think
I think to the listener.
They probably think that every AI company they're hearing of right now is building their own AI.
Whereas actually what's happening is there is really
five, six, seven AI companies in the world.
And when I built my AI application.
I basically
Pay them.
For every time I use their AI. So if Stephen Bartlett builds an AI at stephenbartlettai.com. It's not that I've built my own.
underlying I've trained my own model.
Really what I'm doing is I'm paying
Sam Altman's chat GPT.
Um every single time I do a a call.
I basically um I do a search or uh you know, I use a token.
I think that's really important because most people don't understand that unless you've got AI you think, Oh look, you know, there's all these AI companies popping up. I've got this one for my email, I've got this one for my dating, I've got No no. They're pretty much
I would be I would hazard a guess that they're probably all open AI at this point.
No, there there are quite a few quite different characters and quite different But there's like five or six. There are five or six when it comes to language models. Yeah. Right. Uh but interestingly
So yes, I I should say yes to start, and then I should say
But there was an interesting twist with Deep Seek at the beginning of the year.
So what Deep Seek did uh is is is they basically uh
nullified the business model if you want.
In two ways. One is
It was
Around a week or two after uh you know Trump stood
you know, with pride saying Stargate is the biggest investment project in the history and it's five hundred billion dollars to build AI infrastructure and Softbank and Larry Allison and and uh Sam Altman were sitting and so you know beautiful picture. And then Deep Seek
R three comes out.
It does the job for
A six one over thirty of the cost.
Okay.
And interestingly is entirely open source.
and available as an edge AI.

So so that's really, really interesting because
There could be now in the future as the technology improves.
Mm the learning models will be massive, but then you can compress them into something you can have on your phone.
And you can download Deep Seek literally offline.
on a uh uh uh uh um um you know an off the network computer and build an AI on it.
There's a website that basically tracks the
Um sort of cleanest apples to apples market share.
of all the website referrals sent by AI chatbots and chat GBT's currently at seventy nine percent, roughly about eighty percent, perplexity's eleven, Microsoft Copilots about five, Google Gemini's about two, Claude's about one, and deep seek's about one percent.
I really like the the point that I was I wanna land is just that
When you hear of a new AI app or tool or this one can make it. It's built on one of them. It's basically built on one of these
Really?
Three or four.
AI platforms that's controlled really
By three or four AI
Yeah.
Billionaire teams.
And actually
The one of them that gets to what we call AGI first, where the AI gets really, really advanced.
one could say is potentially gonna rule the world as it relates to technology.
Yes. Uh if it if they get enough uh head start. So so I actually think that
Uh
What I c what I'm more concerned about now is not AGI, believe it or not.
So AGI in my mind, and I said that back in twenty twenty three.
Right.
uh that we will get to AGI. At the time I said twenty twenty seven.
No, I believe.
twenty twenty six latest.
Okay. The most interesting development that nobody's talking about is self evolving AIs.
Self devo evolving AI is is
Think of it this way. If you
And I are hiring the top engineer in the world.
to develop our AI models.
And with AGI that top engineer in the world becomes
And AI.
Who would you hire to develop your next generation AI? That AI.
The one that can teach itself.
Correct. So uh one of my favorite examples is called Alpha Evolve. So this is Google's attempt.
to basically have four agents working together.
Mm four AIs working together.
to look at the a at the code of the AI and say
Where is the what are the performance issues? Then, you know, an agent would say
What's the problem statement? What can I uh, you know, what do I need to fix? Uh one that actually develops the solution, one that assesses the solution.
And then they continue to do this, and you know, Google I don't remember the exact figure, but I think Google improved like eight percent.
uh on their AI infrastructure because of Alpha Evolve.
Right. And when you really, really think, don't quote me on the number eight to ten, six to ten, whatever.
In Google terms, by the way, that is massive. That's billions and billions of dollars.
Mm now the the the the trick here is this. The trick is again you have to think
in game theory format.
Is there any scenario we can think of?
Where?
if one player uses AI to develop the next generation AI, that the other players will say, No, no, no, no, no, that's too much you know.
Takes us out of control.
Every other player will copy that model and have their next AI model developed by an AI.
Is this what Sam Altman talks about, who's the founder of um ChatGPT slash open AI?
When he talks about a fast takeoff.
I don't know exactly what y which what which you're referring to, but we're all
Talking about a point that now that we call the intelligence explosion.
So so there is a moment in time where you have to imagine that if AI now is
Better than ninety seven percent of all code developers in the world.
And soon we'll be able to look at its own code, own algorithms. By the way, they're becoming incredible mathematicians, which wasn't the case when we last met.
Mm. They can develop im improve their own code, improve their own
algorithms improve their own uh uh you know
uh network architecture or whatever.
You can imagine that very quickly.
the force applied to developing the next AI is not gonna be a human brain anymore.

And very quickly as humans, like basically when when we ran the Google infrastructure, when the machine said we need another server or a proxy server in that place, we followed. We never really
you know, wanted to
to object or verify because you know the code would probably know better because there are billions of transactions.
An hour or a day.
Mm-hmm.
And so
Very quickly.
those self evolving AIs will simply say, I need fourteen more servers here.
And we'll just you know, the team will just go ahead and do it.
I watched a video a couple of days ago where he
Sam Otman.
effectively had changed his mind because in two thousand twenty three, which is when we last met.
He said the aim was for um
a slow takeoff, which is sort of gradual deployment.
And OpenAIs two thousand and thirty.
Two thousand twenty three note says a slower takeoff is easier to make safe and they prefer
Iterative roll out society can adapt.
In two thousand twenty five.
Yeah.
They changed their mind.
He now thinks a fast takeoff is more possible than he did a couple of years ago.
on the order of a small number of years rather than a decade.
Um
To define what we mean by a fast takeoff.
It's defined as when AI goes from roughly human level to far beyond human, very quickly.
think months to a few years.
Faster than governments, companies, or society can adapt.
With little warning, big power shifts, and it hard to control.
A slow takeoff by contrast is where capabilities climb gradually over many years with lots of warning shots.
Yeah.
Um and the the red flags for a fast takeoff is when AI
can self improve, run autonomous research and development and scale with massive compute compounding gains.
Which will snowball fast.
So
And I think
From the video that I watched of Sam Altman recently, who again is the founder of Open Air and ChatGBT, he basically says,
And again, I'm paraphrasing here, I will put it on the screen. We have this community notes thing, so I'll write it on the screen.
But he effectively said.
That whoever gets to AGI first
Will have the technology.

Whether AI can can
rapidly increase its own intelligence and it will basically leave everyone else behind.
Yes, uh so that last bit is debatable, but but let's just agree that
Uh so so in in Alive, uh, you know, one of the posts I I shared and got a lot of interest.
is I refer to the the altman.
As a brand.
Not as a human.
Okay. So the altman is that
Uh persona.
of a California disruptive technologist.
That disrespects everyone.
Okay, and believes that disruption is good for humanity and believes that this is good for safety. And like everything else, like we say war is for democracy and freedom, they say uh developing you know putting our AI on the open internet is good for everyone.
Right, it allows us to learn from our mistakes. That was Sam Altman's twenty twenty three
Spiel.
And if you recall at the time I was like this is the most dangerous, you know, one of the
Clips that really went viral.
Oh you so you're you're so clever at finding the right clips is when I said uh the teams where I said we fucked up.
We always said
Don't put them on the open internet until we know what we're putting out in the work. Teaching it to to code and putting, you know, agents, AI agents prompting other AIs. Now AI agents prompting other AIs are leading to self developing AIs.
Mm and and the problem is
Of course we you know, anyone who has been on the inside of this knew that this was
Just
Clever spiel made by a PR manager.
for uh Sam Altman to sit with his dreamy eyes in front of Congress and say, We want you to regulate us.
No.
They're saying.
We're unregulatable.
Okay, and and when you really understand what's happening here.
What's happening is
It's so fast.
Mm-hmm.
That none of them has the choice to slow down.
It's impossible.
Neither China versus America.
Or open AI versus uh Google.
The the the only thing that I m may have may see
happening that you, you know, that that m may differ a little bit from your statement is
If one of them gets the airby first.
uh then they dominate for the rest of humanity. That is probably true if they get their first
Uh with that with in an enough buffer.
Okay. But the way you look at Grok coming a week after open AI, a week after uh you know, Gemini, a week after Cloud, and then Cloud comes again, and then China pr releases something, and then Korea releases some something. It is so fast that
we may get a few of them at the same time or a few months apart.
Okay, before one of them has enough power to
Become dominant.
And that is a very interesting scenario.
Multiple AI is all super intelligent.
It's funny, you know, I I I got asked yesterday I was in I was in Belgium on stage, there was I don't know, maybe
four thousand people in the audience and a a kid stood up and he was like
Um, you've had a lot of conversations in the last year about AI. Like why do you care?
And I don't think people realise how
Even though I've had so many conversations on this podcast about AI.
Having made up your mind? I I I have more questions than ever.
I know.
And it's and it doesn't seem that anyone can
Anyone that tells you they can predict the future is Arabic.
Yeah. It is it's never moved so fast.
It's nothing like nothing I've ever seen. And you know, by the time that we leave this conversation and I go to my computer
There's gonna be some incredible new technology or application of AI that didn't exist.
When I woke up this morning.
Yeah.
creates a probably another paradigm shift in my brain. Also, you know, I people have different opinions of Elon Musk.
And they're they're entitled to their own opinion.
But the other day, only a couple of days ago, he did a tweet.
Where he said at times
AI existential dread is overwhelming.
And on the same day
He tweeted, I resisted AI for too long.
Living in denial.
Now.
It is game on.
And he tagged his AI companies.
I don't know what to make of I don't know what to make of those tweets.
I don't know. And you know
I
I try
Really hard to figure out if
Someone like Sam Waltman has
the best interests of
society at heart.
No.
Or if these people are just like. I'm saying that publicly.
No.
As a matter of fact, so I know Sunder Pachai.
I work as uh CEO of uh Alphabet, Google's.
Parent company.
An amazing human being.
On in all honesty, I know Dennis Hasabis, amazing human being.
Okay. Uh you know, these are
are ethykel
Incredible.
Uh humans at heart.
You have no choice.
Yeah.
Yeah.
S sunder by law.
Mm.
Is
uh demanded to take care of his his shareholder value.
That's all that is his job.
But Thunder, you said you know him, you used to work at Google.
Yeah. He's not gonna do anything that he thinks is gonna harm humanity. But if if he does not continue to advance AI, that by definition
uh uh uh contradicts his responsibility as the CEO of a publicly traded company. He is liable by law.
To continue to advance the agenda.
There's absolutely no doubt about it. Now so but but he's a good person at heart, Demis is a good person at heart. So they're trying so hard.
To make it safe.
Okay? As much as they can.
The reality, however, is that
The the the disruptor.
The Altman as a brand,
Doesn't care that much.
How do you know that?
In reality the disruptor is someone that comes in with the objective of
I don't like the status quo, I have a different approach.
And that different approach.
If you just look at the story.
Mm-hmm. That is
Funded mostly by Elon Musk Money.
If not entirely by unask money. So context for people that might not understand.
Open AI. The reason I always give context is funnily enough, I I think I told you this last time. I went to a prison where they play the die of a CEO.
No way. So they played the Director. I think it's fifty prisons in the UK to young offenders. And no violence there? Well I don't know. I can't I can't I can't tell you whether violence has gone up or down, but uh I was in the cell with one of the prisoners, a young a young black guy, and I was in his cell for for a little while. I was reading through his business plan, et cetera.
And I said, you know what? You need to listen to this conversation that I did with Mo Gordack. So I he has a little screen in his cell. So I pulled it up, you know, our first conversation. I said, You should listen to that one. And he said to me, he said,
I can't listen to that one'cause you guys use big words.
Oh ever since that day, which was about four years ago, sorry.
I've always whenever I hear a big word
I think about this kid. Yeah. And I say like give context. Yeah. So even with the you're you're about to just explain what open AI is. I know he won't know what open open AI's origin story was. That's why I think that's a wonderful practice. In general, by the way, even f you know, being a non native English speaker.
You'll be amazed how often a word is said to me and I
I'm like, Yeah, don't know we like that. So like it's I've actually never said this publicly before, but I now see it as my responsibility to be
To re to keep the draw.
The Draw Bridge.
Yeah.
accessibility of these conversations down
For him.
So whenever I
Whenever there's a word that at some point in my life I didn't know what it meant, I will go back I will say I think that I've noticed that in the uh you know, more and more in your podcast. Yeah, I absolutely appreciate it. And you also show it on the screens that
I I think that's wonderful. I mean the the the origin story of OpenAI is
As the name suggests, it's open source, it's for the public good. It was in in you know intended
in Elon Musk's words, to save the world from the dangers of AI.
Right, so they were doing research on that. And then
You know, there was the disagreement between Sam Altman and uh and Elon. Somehow Ilon ends up
being out of uh of uh of open AI.
I think there was a moment in time where he tried to take it back and, you know, the board rejected it or some something like that.
Most of the uh top um
safety engineers, the top technical teams in OpenAI left in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty-four.
Openly saying we're not concerned with safety anymore. It moves from being a f a non for profit to being one of the most valued companies in the world. There are billions of dollars at stake.
Right. And if you if you tell me that Sam Altman is out there
Trying to
H help humanity.
uh let's ch let's suggest to him and say, Hey, do you wanna do that for free? We'll pay you a very good salary.
But you don't have stocks in this.
Saving humanity doesn't come at a billion dollar valuation.
Or of course now.
Tens of billions or hundreds of billions.
Mm.
And and and see.
Yeah.
Truly, that is when you know that someone
is doing it for the good of humanity.
Now, the the capitalist system we've built is not built for the good of humanity, it's built for the good of the capitalists.
Well, w he might say that releasing
The model
Publicly.
open sourcing it is too risky.
Because then
Bad actors around the world.
would have access to that technology. So he might say that closing
Open AI.
In terms of not making it.
Publicly viewable.

Right. One of the interesting tricks is
uh of lying in our world is everyone
Mm.
What helps their agenda.
Follow the money.
Okay. You follow the money and you find that
You know, at a point in time, Sam Oltman himself was saying it's open AI.
Okay, my benefit at the time is to give it to the world so that the world looks at it, they know the code, if there is if there are any bugs and so on.
True statement.
Mm-hmm, a true statement is if I put it out there in the world.
Mm, a criminal might take that model and build something that's against humanity as a result.
Also true true statement.
Capitalists will choose which one of the truths to say.
Right. Based on which part of the agenda, which part of their life today.
They want to serve.
Right.
Uh you know.
Uh do I do you want me to be controversial?
N let's not go there. But if we go back to war, I'll give you four hundred slogans.
Four hundred slogans that we all hear.
Mm.
Change based on the day.
And the army and the location and the
They're all slogans, none of them is true.
You want to know the truth, you follow the money.
Not what the person is saying.
But ask yourself.
Why is the person saying that?
What's in it?
for the person speaking.
And what do you think's in it for chat GPT Sam Altman? Uh hundreds of billions of dollars.
Of uh of uh of valuation.
And do you think it's that opening?
Mm the position of power that that this this gives you, the meetings with all of the heads of states, the admiration that gets it it is
Intoxicating.
Hundred percent.
Hundred percent.
Okay? And and the real question uh this is a question I ask everyone. Did you see you didn't you're you every time I ask you, you say you didn't. Did you see the movie Elysium?
No. You'd be surprised how little movie watching I do. You'd be shocked.
to create an emotional attachment to a story that you haven't seen yet.
Because you may have seen it in a movie.
Elysium is a is a society where the elites are living on the moon.
Okay. They don't need
peasants to do the work anymore.
And everyone else is living down here.
Okay.
You have to imagine that
If again game theory you have to ima you know, picture something to infinity, to its extreme and see where it goes.
Mm-hmm.
where all manufacturer is done manufacturing is done by machines.
Mm-hmm where all decisions are made by machines, and those machines are owned by a few.
Mm.
is not an economy similar to the to the day to the
to today's economy.
Mm.
Today's economy is
An economy of
consumerism and and product and production.
You know, it's the it's the uh in in alive I call it the invention of more.
The invention of more is that post World War Two.
As the factories were rolling out things and prosperity was happening everywhere in America.
Mm there was a time where every family had enough of everything.
Mm-hmm. But for the capitalists to continue to be profitable, they needed to convince you that what you had was not enough.
either by making it obsolete like fashion or like you know a new shape of a car or whatever, or by convincing you that there are more things in life that you need.
Mm. So that you become complete without those things you don't.
And and that invention of more
Mm gets us to where we are today. An economy that's based on
Production.
Consumed.
And if you look at the US economy today, sixty two percent of the US economy
GDP.
It's consumption, it's not production.
Okay. Now
This
Requires that the
Consumers have enough purchasing power to f to buy what is produced.
And I believe that this will be an economy that will
Take us hopefully
Mm-hmm.
In the next ten, fifteen, twenty years and forever.
But that's not guaranteed. Why? Because on one side, if UBI replaces purchasing power.
So if people have to get
and income from the government.
Mm, which is basically taxes collected from those using AI and robots to to make things.
Mm-hmm.
the then the mindset of capitalism labour arbitrage
Means
Those people are not producing anything and they're costing me money.
Why don't we pay them less?
And yes.
Maybe even not pay them at all.
And that becomes illysium.
What you basically say.
You know, we sit somewhere.
Protect it from everyone.
Mm. We have the machines do all of our work.
And those need to
What do you have about themselves?
We're not gonna pay them UBI anymore.
Right? And and you have to imagine, uh, this idea of UBI assumes this
very democratic
caring society.
U BI in itself.
is communism.
Think of the ideology between at least socialism.
the ideology of giving everyone what they need.
That's not the capitalist.
democratic society that the West advocates.
So those transitions are massive in magnitude.
And for those transitions to happen.
I believe the right thing to do
When the cost of producing everything is
Almost zero because of AI and robots.
Mm-hmm.
because the cost of harvesting energy should actually tend to zero once we get more intelligent to harvest the energy.
out of thin air.
Mm.
then a possible scenario and and I believe a scenario that
AI will eventually do in the utopia.
Is
Yeah.
Anyone can get anything they want, don't overconsume.
We're not gonna abuse them the the planet's resources, but it costs nothing. So like the old days where we were hunter gatherers, you would, you know, forge for some berries and you'll find them ready in
In nature.
Okay.
We can in ten years time, twelve years time, build a society.
Where
You can forge for an iPhone in nature.
will be made out of thin air.
Nano physics will allow you to do that.
Okay.
The challenge, believe it or not, is not tech.
The challenge is a mindset.
Біка іліт
Why would they give you
That for free.
Okay, and the system would morph into, no, no, hold on.
We will make more money, we will be bigger capitalists, we will feed our ego and hunger for power more and more.
And
For them, give them UBI.
And then three weeks later give them less UBI.
Aren't there gonna be lots of new jobs created though? Because when we think about the other
revolutions over time, whether it was the industrial revolution or other sort of big technological revolutions.
In the moment we forecasted that
Everyone was gonna lose their jobs.
But we couldn't see all the new jobs that were being created. Because the the the machines
Mm-hmm.
replaced the human strengths at a point in time.
And very few places in the West today.
We'll have a worker.
carry things on their back and carry it upstairs.
The machine does that work, correct? Yeah.
Yeah.
Similarly.
Mm-hmm.
AI is going to replace the brain.
of a human. And when the West in its interesting
uh virtual colonies that I call it. Uh basically outsourced all labour to the
to the in developing nations what the West's
Publicly said at the time is
We're we're gonna be a services economy. We're we're we're not interested in making things and stitching things and so. Let the Indians and Chinese and you know Bengali and V Vietnamese do that. We're gonna do more refined jobs, knowledge workers we're gonna call them.
Knowledge workers are people who work with information and
click on a keyboard and move a mouse and you know, sit in meetings and all we produce in the Western societies is what words.
Right, or designs maybe sometimes, but everything we produce
can be produced by an AI.
So if I give you
An AI tomorrow.
Mm.
Where I give you a piece of land, I give the AI a piece of land, and I say, Here are the parameters of my land, here is its location on Google Maps.
Design and architecturally sound villa for me, I care about a lot of light.
And I need three bedrooms. I want my bathrooms to be in white marble, whatever.
And AI produces it like that. How often would you go to an uh to an architect and say,
Right? So what will the architect do?
the best of the best of the architects will either use AI to produce that.
Or you will consult with them and say, Hey
You know, I've seen this and they'll say, Mm, it's really pretty, but it wouldn't feel right for the person that you are.
Yeah, those jobs would remain, but how many of them would remain?
Mm. How how often do you think
Uh how many more years do you think I will be able to create a book that is smarter than AI?
Not many.
I will still be able to connect to a human.
You're not gonna hug an AI when you meet them like you hug me.
Right. But that's
Not enough of a job.
So
Why do I say that? Remember I asked you at the beginning of the podcast to
Remind me of solutions.
Mm.
Why do I say that?
Because there are ideological shifts.
And and concrete actions that need to be taken by governments today.
rather than waiting until Covid is already everywhere and then locking everyone down.
Mm. Governments could have reacted before the first patient, or at least at patient zero, or at least at patient fifty. They didn't.
Mm.
There is no doubt.
That lots of jobs will be lost.
There's no doubt that there will be sectors of society where ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty percent
of all developers, all software, uh you know, all graphic designers, all um uh uh um online marketers, all all all all assistances.
Mm-hmm.
are gonna be out of a job.
So
Are we prepared as a society to do that? Can we tell our governments there is an ideological shift?
This is very close to social socialism and and communism.
Okay.
And are we ready from a budget point of view, instead of spending a b uh a trillion dollars a year on
on arms and and explosives and you know autonomous weapons that will oppress people because we can't feed them.
Mm. Can we please shift that? I did those numbers, huh? Uh
Again I I go back to military spending because it's
All around this, yeah.
Two point seven one trillion dollars. Two point four to two two point seven is the estimate of twenty twenty four. How much money we're spending on military? On yeah, on military equipment, on things that were gonna ex explode into smoke.
Mm-hmm.
Extreme poverty worldwide. Extreme poverty is people that are below the poverty line.
Mm extreme poverty everywhere in the world could end for ten to twelve percent of that budget.
So if we replace our military spending, ten percent of that.
Mm-hmm.
to go to people who are in extreme poverty, nobody will be poor in the world.
Okay, you can end uh world hunger for less than four percent.
Nobody would be hungry in the world.
You know, if you take uh
Again, ten to twelve percent universal health care.
every human be being on the planet would have free health care.
for ten to twelve percent on what we're spending on war.
Now why why do I say this when we're talking about AI? Because that's a simple decision.
If we stop fighting
Because money itself does not have the same meaning anymore.
Because the economics of money is going to change, because the entire meaning of capitalism is ending, because there is no more need for labor, arbitrage because AI is doing everything.
Mm.
Just with the two point four trillion dollars we save.
in explosives every year.
In arms and weapons.
Just for that.
universal healthcare and extreme poverty, uh you could actually one of the calculations is you could end
Clim or combat climate chlimate change meaningfully.
for a hundred percent of the
military budget.
But I n I'm not even sure it's really about
The money. I think money is a measurement stick of power, right? Exactly. It's printed on demand. So even in a world where we have super intelligence and money is no longer a problem. Correct.
I still think
Power.
It's gonna be
insatiable for so many people, so there'll still be war because
You know.
There will be more than one in my view.
The strongest. I want the strongest AI. I don't want my And I don't and I don't want you know what Harry Ke Henry Kissinger called them.
The eaters.
Beaters.

Brutal as that sounds.
What is that the
People at the bottom of the socio economic.
So if you had the Henry Kissinger at the
at the Helman, we have so many of them.
What would they think?
Why why uh uh very prominent uh military figure in the US history. Uh you know, why why would we
feed three hundred and fifty million Americans, America will think. But more interestingly, why do we even care about Bangladesh anymore?
If we can't make our textiles there, or we don't want to make our textile there.
You know, I I imagine throughout human history if we had podcasts
Conversations with
Would have been a little bit more than
Warning of a dystopia around the corner.
You know, when they heard of tech technology in the internet, they would have said, Oh, we're finished and when the the tractor came along, they would have said, Oh God, we're finished because we're not gonna be able to farm anymore. So is this not just another one of those moments where we couldn't see around the corner, so we
We forecast it.
Unfortunate things.
Could be.
I I I am I'm begging.
That I'm wrong.
Okay.
I'm just asking if there are scenarios that you think that can provide that.
You know, uh uh Mustafa Suleman in in uh you hosted him here. I did, yeah, he was in the coming wave. Yeah. And he speaks about uh
About
Pessimism aversion.
Okay, that all of us people who are
supposed to be in technology and business and so on. We're always supposed to, you know, stand on stage and say, The future's gonna be amazing. You know, this technology I'm building is going to make everything better.
One of my posts in life was called The Broken Promises.
How often did that happen?
Okay, how often did social media connect us?
And how many how and how often did it m make us more lonely? How how often did mobile phones make us workless?
That was the promise.
That was the promise. The promise the early ads of Nokia were people at parties.
Is that your experience of mobile phones?
Mm and and I think the whole idea is we should hope.
There will be other roles for humanity, by the way. Those roles would resemble
The times.
Well, we were hunter gatherers. Just a lot more technology and a lot more safety.
Okay, so this is this sounds good.
Yeah. This is exciting. So I'm gonna I'm gonna get to go outside more, be with my friends more. Hundred percent.
Fantastic. And do absolutely nothing.
Well that doesn't sound fantastic. No, it does. Do be forced to do absolutely nothing. For some people it's amazing. For you and I, we're gonna find the little carpentry project and just do something. Speak for yourself. I'm still people are still gonna tune in.
Okay. Correct. Yeah.
What what and people are going to to tune in. Do you think they will? I'm not I'm not I'm not convinced they will.
You guys still gonna cheer. I'm I can let them answer. I'm I believe for as long as you
Make their life enriched.
But can an AI do that better?
Without the human connection.
Comment below. Are you gonna listen to an AI or the Dire of a Seo? Let me know in the comment section below. Remember
As incredibly intelligent as you are, Stів, uh
There will be a moment in time where you're going to sound really dumb compared to an AI.
And and and I will sound completely dumb.
Yeah, I'm the the depth the depth of analysis
Mm.
And and gold nuggets. I mean, can you imagine?
Two super intelligences deciding to get together.
And explain um
String theory to us.
They'll do better than any physician physicist in the world.
because they possess the physics knowledge and they also prove so to possess social and language knowledge that most
Deep physicists don't.
I think
B to B marketers keep making this mistake. They're chasing volume instead of quality.
And when you try to be seen by more people instead of the right people, all you're doing is making noise, but that noise rarely shifts the needle. And it's often quite expensive. And I know, as there was a time in my career where I kept making this mistake, that many of you will be making it too. Eventually I started posting ads on our show sponsors platform LinkedIn, and that's when things started to change.
I put that change down to a few critical things. One of them being that LinkedIn was then and still is today the platform where decision makers go to, not only to think and learn, but also to buy. And when you market your business there, you're putting it right in front of people who actually have the power to say yes.
And you can target them by job title, industry, and company size. It's simply a sharper way to spend your marketing budget. And if you haven't tried it,
How about this?
Give LinkedIn ads a try and I'm going to give you a hundred dollar ad credit to get you started. If you visit linkedin.com slash diary, you can claim that right now.
That's LinkedIn.com slash diary.
I've I've really gone back and forward on this idea that even in podcasting that
all the podcasts will be AI podcasts, or I've gone back and forward on it. And and where I landed at the end of the day was that there'll still be a category of media
where you do want lived experience on something hundred percent. For example, like you want to know how the person that you follow and admire dealt with their divorce.
Yeah, or or how they're struggling with AI.
For example, yeah, exactly.
But I but I think things like news
There are there are s certain situations where just like straight news and straight facts and maybe
A walk through history.
Maybe eroded away by AIs.
But even in those scenarios, you there's something about personality. And again, I I hesitate here because I question myself. I'm not in the camp of people that are romantic, by the way.
I'm like I'm trying to be as
as orientated towards whatever is true, even if it's against my interests.
And I hope people understand that about me. Like
Um'cause even in my companies we experiment with like disrupting me with AI and some people will be aware of those experiments. I guess that there will be a mix of all.
There you you can't imagine that the world will be
completely just AI and completely just podcasters. You know, you'll see a mix of of both. You'll see things that they do better, things that we do better. Yeah the the message I'm trying to say is we need to prep for that.
We need to be ready for that. We need to be ready by, you know, talking to our governments and saying, Hey, it looks like I'm a a para legal and
It looks like all paralegals are
going to be, you know, financial researchers or analysts or graphic designers or you know, call center agents. It looks like half of those jobs are being replaced already.
You know who Jeffrey Hinton is?
Oh Jeffrey I m I had him on the documentary as well. I love Jeffrey.
Jeffrey Hinton told me. Trained to be a plumber.
Really?
Yeah.
Hundred percent.
For a white.
And I I thought he was joking. Hundred percent. So I asked him again and he he looked me
Dead in the eye.
And told me that I I should train to be a plumber.
Hundred percent. So so so uh uh it's funny, huh? Uh
Machines replaced labor, but we still had blue collar.
Mm then uh you know the refined jobs became white collar information workers.
You know, you don't have to really carry heavy stuff or deal with
physical work, you know, you sit in an a in an office and sit in meetings all day and blabber.
You know, useless shit and you that's your job. Okay. And those jobs
Funny enough, in the reverse of that, because robotics are not ready yet.
Okay, and I believe they're not ready because of a stubbornness.
on the co on the robotics community around making them humanoids.
Mm. Okay? Because it takes so much to perfect a human
like action at proper speed, you could
You know, have
many more robots that don't look like a human, just like a self driving car in California.
Okay, that's that does already replace drivers.
Mm-hmm. And and you know, but but they're delayed. So the robotic the the replacement of physical manual labor
Mm is going to take four to five years before
It's possible that.
you know, at at the quality
of the AI replacing.
Mental.
Labour now.
And
when that happens it's gonna take a long cycle to manufacture enough robots.
so that they replace all of those jobs. So that cycle will take longer. Blue collar will stay longer.
So I should move into
Blue collar and shut down my office.
I think you're you're not the problem.
Okay, good.
There are many people that we should care about.
Mm that are a simple travel agent or an assistant.
Mm-hmm.
That will see, if not replacement, a reduction in the number of pings they're getting.
Simple as that.
Mm.
And someone
In
you know, ministries of labor around the world needs to sit down and say
What are we gonna do about that?
What if all taxi drivers and Uber drivers in
uh in California.
Get replaced by self driving cars.
Should we start thinking about that now?
Noticing that the trajectory th makes it look like a possibility.
I'm gonna go go back to this argument, which is what a lot of people will be shouting.
Yes, but there will be new jobs. Or and I as I said, other than human connection jobs, name me one.
So
I I've got three assistants.
Right.
Sophie Lee and D.
And
Okay, in the near term, there might be a s you know, with AI agents, I might not need
them to help me book flights anymore, or I might not need them to help do scheduling anymore, or even I've been messing around with this new AI tool that my friend built.
And you basically when me and you are trying to schedule something like this today, I just copy the AI in and it looks at your calendar, looks at mine and schedules it for for us. So there might not be scheduling needs, but my dog is sick at the moment.
And as I left this morning, I was like, damn, he's like really sick and I've taken him to the vet over and over again. I really need someone to look after him.
and figure out what's wrong with him. So those kinds of responsibilities of like
C
I don't disagree at all.
Again, all I went
I'm not gonna be
I don't know how to say this in a nice way, but I'm not sure.
My assistants will still have their jobs.
But I I, as a CEO, will be asking them to do a different type of work.
Correct.
So so that so this is the calculation everyone needs to be aware of. A lot of their current responsibility, whoever you are, if you're a paralegal or if you're whatever, will
Be handed over. So so uh let me explain it even more accurately. There will be two stages.
Mm of our interactions with the machines. One is what I call the
Uh era of
Augmented intelligence.
So it's human intelligence augmented with AI doing the job.
And then the following one is what I call the era of machine mastery.
The job is done completely by an AI without a human in the loop.
Okay, so in the era of augmented intelligence.
your assistances will augment themselves with an AI.
To either be more productive. Yeah.
Okay.
Or
Mm.
Interestingly, to reduce the number of
Tasks that they need to do.
Correct?
No.
The more the number of tasks get reduced.
the more they'll have the bandwidth and ability to do tasks like take care of your dog.
Right. Or tasks that uh, you know, basically is about meeting your guests or whatever. Human connection. Yeah, uh life connection.
Mm-hmm.
But
Do you think you need three for that? Or maybe now that some tasks have been
uh you know, outsourced to AI.
Well you need two. You can easily calculate that from call center edges.
So from call center agents.
They're not firing everyone.
But they're taking the first part of the funnel.
And giving it to an AI.
So instead of having
two thousand agents in a in a call center they can now do the job with
A thousand eight hundred. I'm just making that number up.
Mm.
Society needs to think about the two hundred.
And you're telling me that they won't move into other roles somewhere else.
I am telling you I don't know what those rules are.
Well I I think we should all be musicians, we should all be authors, we should all be artists, we should all be entertainers, we should all be comedians, we should all these are roles that will remain.
We should all be plumbers for the next five to ten years.
Fantastic.
Okay.
But even that requires society to morph.
And society's not talking about it.
Okay. I had this wonderful interview with friends of mine, Peter Diamendez and and and some of our friends.
Mm-hmm.
And and they were saying, Oh, you know, the American people are resilient. They're going to be entrepreneurs.
I was like seriously.
You're expecting a truck driver that will be replaced by
An autonomous truck.
to become an entrepreneur.
Like
Please put yourself in the shoes of real people.
Right, do you expect a single mother who has three jobs?
to become an entrepreneur.
And I'm not saying this is a dystopia.
It's a dystopia if humanity manages it badly.
Why? Because this could be the utopia itself, where that single mother does not need three jobs.
Ke, if we aв our society was just enough.
That single mother should have never needed three jobs.
Right.
But the problem is our capitalist mindset is labor arbitrage is that
I don't care what she goes through.
uh you know, if if you're if you're generous in your assumption you'd say
because, you know, of what I've been given, I've been blessed. Or if you're
mean in your assumption is going to be because she's an eater. I'm a uh
A successful businessman.
The world is supposed to be fair. I work hard, I make money.
We don't care about them.
Are we asking of ourselves here something that is not
inherent in the human condition. What I mean by that is
The reason why me and you are in
Yes.
My office here. We're on the fourth or third floor of my office in central London.
Big office, twenty five thousand square feet, with lights and internet connections and wifi and modems and
AI teams downstairs. The reason that all of this exists is because
something inherent in my ancestors meant that they
Built.
And accomplished.
and grew. And that was like inherent in their DNA. There was something in their DNA that said
We will expand and conquer.
And accomplish.
So that's they've passed that to us because we're their offspring. And that's why we find ourselves in these skyscrapers. Th there is truth to that story. It's not your ancestors.
What is it?
It's
the media brainwashing you.
Really? Hundred percent.
But if if you look back before times of media, mm-hmm.
The reason why Hemos sapiens were so successful was because they were able to dominate other tribes.
through banding together and communication, they conquered all these other
These other um
Uh w never came before Homo sapiens.
Yeah, so so the the reason humans were successful, in my view, is because they could form a tribe to start.
It's not because of our intelligence, I always joke and say Einstein.
Would be eaten in the jungle in two minutes.
Mm. Right. Yeah, you know, the reason why we succeeded is because Einstein could
partner with a a big guy that protected him while he was working on relativity in the jungle.
Right. Now the the the
Further than that, so so you have to assume.
That life is a very funny game because it provides
Mm.
And then
It it deprives and then it provides and then it deprives.
And
For some of us, in that stage of deprivation, we try to say, Okay, let's take the other guys.
You know, let's just go to the other tribe, take what they have.
Mm.
Or for some of us, unfortunately, we tend to believe, okay, you know what, I'm powerful
Uh for the rest of you, I'm just going to be the boss.
Mm-hmm.

You know.
Position this as the condition of humanity.
If you really look at the majority of humans, what do the majority of humans want?
Be honest. They want to hug their kids. They want a good meal.
Mm want good sex, they want love.
They want.
Yeah, to
M for most humans.
Don't measure on you and I.
Okay, don't measure by this foolish person that's dedicated the rest of his life to to try and warn the world around AI or, you know, solve uh love and relationships.
Mm that's
That's crazy.
That's I and I will tell you openly and you you met Hannah, my wonderful wife, mm.
It's the biggest
title of this year for me is
Which of that am I actually responsible for?
Mm. Which of that should I do without the sense of responsibility? Which of that should I do because I can, which of that should I ignore completely?
Mm-hmm.
Most humans
They just want to hug their loved ones.
Okay. And if we could give them that.
Without the
uh you know the the need to work twenty you know uh sixty hours a week.
They would take that for sure.
Okay? And you and I will think, Ah, but life will be very boring.
To them life will be completely fulfilling. Go to Latin America.
Go to Latin America and see the people that go
Work enough to earn enough to eat today and go dance for the whole night.
Go to Africa.
Where people are sitting literally on
you know sidewalks in in the street.
And and you know.
completely full of laughter and joy.
We we would like to the
The global majority.
The cheerleaders. We would like to to to believe
that we need to fit as another gear in that system.
But if that system didn't exist.
Nobody none of us will go wake up in the morning and go like oh I wanna create it.
Totally not.
Mean
You've touched on it many times today.
We don't need y you know, y most people that build those things don't need the money.
So why do they do it then?
Because h Homo sapiens
We're incredible competitors.
They outcompeted other human species effectively. So I'm what I'm saying is is is that competition not inherent in our
In our wiring. And
And therefore
Are we are we is it wishful thinking to think that we could potentially pause
And say
We we okay, this is it. We have enough now.
And we're going to
Focus on just enjoying.
In my work I call that the map.
Mad spectrum.
Okay.
Mutu mutually assured prosperity versus mutually assured destruction.
destruction.
Okay.
And you really have to start thinking about this because in my mind, what we have is the potential for everyone. I mean
You and I today.
Have a better life than
The Queen of England a hundred years ago.
Correct. Everybody knows that.
Uh.
And yet that quality of life is not good enough.
Mm-hmm.
The truth is
Like just like you walk into a uh an electronics shop and there are sixty T Vs and you look at them and you go, Like this one is better than that one, right? But in reality, if you take any of them home, it's superior quality to anything that you'll ever need.
m more than anything you know you'll ever need. That that's the truth of our life today. The truth of our life today is that
There isn't much more missing.
No.
Okay. And and when when you know Californians tell us, oh, but AI is going to increase productivity and solve this and
Nobody asked you for that. Honestly, I never elected you to decide on my behalf that, you know, getting a machine to answer me on a call center is better for me.
I really didn't.
Okay, and and because those unelected individuals are making all the decisions, they're selling those decisions to us through what?
Medium.
Okay.
All lies.
From A to C.
None of it is what you need.
And and interestingly, you know me. I I
This year I failed, unfortunately I won't be able to do it, but I normally do a forty days
silent retreat in nature.
Okay.
And
You know what?
Even as I go to those nature places
I'm so well trained.
That unless I have a a weight rose nearby, I'm not able to.
I I'm I'm in nature, but I need to be able to drive twenty minutes to get my rice cakes. Like what?
What?
Mm.
was taught me that this is the way to live.
All of the media around me, all of the of the of the messages that I get all the time.
Try to sit back and say
What if life had everything?
What if I had
Everything I needed.
I could
Read I could.
uh, you know, do my handcrafts and hobbies. I could, you know, uh fix my, you know, cla restore classic cars not because I need the money, but because it's just a beautiful hobby. I could
You know, uh build AIs to help people with their long term committed relationships, but really price it for free.
What if
What if would you still
Insist on making money.
I think no.
I think a few of us will, still.
And they would still crush the rest of us.
And hopefully soon the AI will crush them.
Right?
That is the problem with your world today, I will tell you, hands down.
The problem with our with our world today is
is the A in face RIPs.
It's the A in face R I P it's w it's accountability.
The problem with our world today, as I said.
The top is lying all the time.
The bottom is gullible.
Cheerleaders.
And there is no accountability. You cannot hold
anyone in our world accountable today.
Okay, you cannot hold someone that develops an AI that has the power to
completely flip our world upside down, you cannot hold them accountable and say, Why did you do this?
You cannot hold them accountable and tell them to stop doing this. You could look at the world the wars around the world, millions hundreds of thousands of people are dying.
Okay, and you know and uh international court of justice will say, Oh, this is war crimes, you can't hold anyone accountable.
Okay. You have
Fift one percent of the US today is saying stop that.
Mm-hmm.
Fift one percent change their their the their lawyer their view that AI that that their money shouldn't be spent on walls abroad.
Okay.
You can't hold anyone accountable. Trump can do whatever he wants.
He starts tariffs which is against the the constitution of the US without consulting with the Congress.
You can't hold them accountable. They say they're not gonna show the Epstein files. You can't hold them accountable. It's quite interesting. In in Arabic we have that proverb that says the highest of your horses you can go and ride.
I'm not gonna change my mind.
Okay. And that's truly
What does that mean?
So basically people in the in the old Arabia they would drive a horse to you know to exert their power if you want. So go ride your highest horse.
Not gonna change my mind. Oh, okay.
Right. And and the truth is
That's
I think that's what our politicians today have


oligarchs have discovered what h our uh tech oligarchs have discovered is that
I don't even need to worry about the public opinion anymore.
Okay. At the beginning I would have to say, Ah, this is for democracy and freedom and I have the right to defend myself and you know, all of that crap. And then eventually when the world wakes up and says, No, no, hold on, hold on, you're going too far.
Yeah.
Go ride your highest horse.
I don't care. You can't change me. There is no constitution. There is no ability for any any citizen to do anything.
Is it possible to have a society where
Like the one you described, where
There isn't hierarchies'cause it appears to me that
Humans
Assemble hierarchy.
Very, very quickly, very naturally.
And the minute you have a hierarchy, you have
Many of the problems that you've described.
Where there's a top and a bottom and the the top have a lot of power and the bottom.
So so the mathematics mathematically is actually quite interesting.
What I call the uh the baseline relevance.
So so
Think of it this way.
Say the average human is an IQ of a hundred.
Yeah.
Okay. I tend to believe that when I use my AIs today
Mm-hmm.
I borrow around s fifty to eighty IQ points.
I say that because I've worked with people that had fifty to eighty IQ points more than me. And I now can see that I can sort of
Stand my.
My place.
Fifty I fifty IQ points, by the way, is
enormous because
IQ is
Exponential.
So the the last fifty are bigger than
My entire IQ.
Right.
If I borrow fifty IQ points on top of, say, a hundred that I have, that's thirty percent.
If I can borrow a hundred
IQ that's fifty fifty percent.
That that's so you know, basically doubling my intelligence. But if I can borrow four thousand.
IQ points.
Mm-hmm.
In three years' time.
My IQ itself, my base is irrelevant.
Whether you are
smarter than me by twenty or thirty or fifty, which in our world today made a difference.
Mm.
In the future if we can all augment with four thousand.
I end up with four thousand one hundred, another ends up with four hundred.
four thousand, you know, one hundred and thirty.
really doesn't make much difference.
Okay, and because of that
Mm the difference between all of humanity
And the augmented intelligence.
is going to be irrelevant.
So all of us suddenly become equal.
And and this also happens economically.
All of us become peasants.
And I never wanted to tell you that because I think it will make you run faster.
Okay. But unless you're in the
Top point one percent.
You're a peasant.
There is no middle class.

You know.
If a CEO can be replaced by an AI.
All of our middle class is gonna disappear.
What do you say to me?
W
All of us would be equal.
And it's up to all of us to create the society that we want to live in.
Which is a good thing.
Hundred percent. But that society is not capitalism.
What is it?
Unfortunately it's much more socialism, it's much more hunter gatherer.
Okay. It's much more communion like, if you want.
This is a society where humans connect to humans, connect to nature, connect to the land, connect to knowledge, connect to spirituality.
Mm.
Where
All that we wake up every morning worried about.
Doesn't feature anymore.
And it's a m it's a better world, believe it or not.
And you we have to s transition to it.
Okay, so
I in such a world, which I guess is your version of the utopia that we can get to. When I wake up in the morning, what do I do?
What do you do today?
I woke up this morning, I spent a lot of time with my dog'cause my dog is sick and so.
Yeah, I was stroking him a lot and then I fed him and he was sick again and I just thought so I spoke to the vest.
Okay.
But then I was very excited to come here.
do this and after this I'm gonna work. It's Saturday, but I'm gonna go downstairs in the office and work.
Yeah. So si six hours of the day so far are your dogs and me.
Yeah.
Good. You can do that still.
And then build my business.
You may you may not need to build your business.
But I enjoy it.
Yeah, then do it.
If you enjoy it, do it.
You may wake up and then, you know, instead of building your business, you may invest in your body.
a little more, go to the gym a little more. Go play a game.
Mm. Go read a book.
Go prompt an AI and learn something. It's not a horrible life. It's the life of your grandparents.
It's just two generations ago where people went to work.
Mm-hmm.
before the invention of more, remember, uh people who who started working in the fifties and sixties.
They worked to make enough money.
to live a le reasonable life, went home at five PM.
Mm.
tea with their uh with their loved ones, had a wonderful dinner around the table, did a lot of things, you know, uh for the rest of the evening and enjoyed life.
Some of them.
Mm-hmm.
In the fifties and sixties there were still people that were correct.
And I think it's a very interesting question.
Yeah.
How many of them?
And I really, really um I actually wonder if people will tell me. Do we think that ninety nine percent of the world
cannot live without working or that ninety nine percent of the world
Would happily live without working.
What do you think?
I think if we if you give me other
Purpose.
You know, we we defined our purpose as work.
That's a capitalist lie.
Was there ever a time in human history where our purpose
Wasn't
Work.
Hundred percent.
When was that?
All through human history until the invention of Moore.
I thought my ancestors were out.
Hunting all day.
They fed the tribe for the week.
They gathered uh for a couple of hours every day. Farmers
you know, saw the seeds and and waited for months at uh on end.
What did they do with the rest of the time?
They connected as humans.
They explored, they uh were curious, they discussed spirituality and the stars. They they
They l lived, they hugged, they made love, they lived.
They killed each other a lot.
The k they still kill each other today.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So take that out of the equation.
By the way.
That actually that statement again one of the of the twenty five tips I I I uh I talk about uh
to to tell the truth is words mean a lot.
No.
Humans did not kill each other a lot.
Very few generals instructed humans or tribe leaders instructed lots of humans to kill each other.
But if you leave humans a alone
I tend to believe ninety nine ninety eight percent of the people I know.
Let me just take that sample.
wouldn't hit someone in the face.
And if someone attempted to hit them in the face, they'd defend themselves but wouldn't attack back.
Most humans are okay.
Most of us are wonderful beings.
Most of us have no
You know.
Yeah, w we you know pe most people don't don't need a Ferrari.
They want a Ferrari because it gets sold to them all the time.
But if there were no Ferraris or everyone had a Ferrari.
People wouldn't care.
Which, by the way.
That is the world we're going into. There will be no Ferraris.
But everyone had Faris.
Right? Nine you know, the majority of humanity will never have the income w on UBI too.
to buy something super expensive.
Only the very top guys in Lysium will be
You know.
driving cars that are made for them by the AI or not even driving anymore.
Okay.
Or
Mm-hmm.
You know.
Again, sadly idea I from an ideology
Point of view it's a strange place.
But you'll get communism that functions.
The problem with communism is that didn't it didn't function, it didn't provide for for its society, but the concept was
You know what? Everyone gets their needs.
А най дон сайта'спортивно ідер.
Society, yeah.
I don't say that because I dislike capitalism. I always told you I'm a capitalist. I want to end my life with one billion happy.
and I use capitalist methods to get there, the objective is not dollars, the objective is number of happy people.
Do you think there'll be my girlfriend, she's always bloody right. I've said this a few times on this podcast. If you've listened before, you've probably heard me say this. I I don't tell her enough in the moment, but I figure out from speaking to experts that she's so fucking right. She like predicts things before they happen. And one of her predictions that she's been saying to me for the last two years, which in my head I've been thinking, no, I don't I don't believe that. But now maybe I'm thinking she's true, she's telling the truth.
I just listened to this one.
Is she keep saying to me, she's been saying for the last year, she goes
There's gonna be a big split in society.
S and the way she describes it is she's saying like there's gonna be
two groups of people. The people that split
All those hunter gatherer
Community centric, connection centric.
Utopia.
And then there's gonna be this s other group of people who pursue
You know.
the technology and the AI and the optimization and get the brain chips. Cause like there's nothing on earth that's gonna persuade my girlfriend to get the computer brain chips.
But there will be people that go for it.
And they'll have the highest IQs and they'll be the most productive by whatever objective measure of productivity you want to apply.
And she's very convinced there's gonna be this splitting of society. Yeah.
So there was there was uh I I don't know if you had Hugo De Garris here.
No.
Yeah.
A very, very, very renowned.
it eccentric uh computer scientist.
who wrote a book called The Artelic War.
And the Artric War was basically around.
Yeah, how we
it's not gonna be first, it's not gonna be a war between humans and AI.
It will be a war between people who support AI and people who
Sort of.
Don't want it anymore?
Okay. And and it is and and it will be us versus each other saying, should we allow AI to take all the jobs or should we
You know, some people will support that very much and say, Yeah.
Absolutely. And so you know, we will benefit from it. And others will say, No, why why? We don't need any of that. Why don't we keep our jobs and let AI do sixty percent of the work and all of us work ten hour weeks and it's a beautiful society.
By the way, that's a possibility.
So a possibility if society awakens is to say, okay
Everyone still keeps their job.
Mm but they're assisted by an AI that makes their job much easier. So it's not
you know, this uh this hard labor that we do anymore.
Right? It's a possibility. It's just a mindset.
A mindset that says in that case the capitalist still pays everyone.
Mm.
Uh, they still make a lot of money. The business is is really great.
Mm.
But everyone's
that they pay has purchasing power to keep the economy running so consumption continues, so GDP continues to grow. It's a beautiful setup.
But that's not the capitalist labour arbitrage.
When you're competing against other nations.
Which and other competitors and other businesses.
And drives the highest gross margins, gross profits.
It's gonna be the nation that's gonna be a little bit more than examples in the world. This is why I say it's the map mad uh spectrum.
There are examples in the world where when we
recognize mutually a uh a sure destruction.
Okay, we we decide to shift.
So nuclear threat for the whole world makes
Nations across nations makes nations work together.
Right, by saying, Hey, by the way, prolification of nuclear weapons weapons is not good for humanity, let's all of us limit it. Of course, the get the rogue player that you know doesn't want to sign the agreement and wants to continue to to have the you know the that uh weapon in their arsenal, fine.
But at least the rest of humanity agrees that if you have a nuclear weapon, we're part of an agreement between us. Mutually aggr a assured prosperity.
You know, it's the CERN project.
CERN is too too complicated for any nation to build it alone.
Mm-hmm. But it is really, you know, a very useful thing for physicists and for understanding science. So all nations send their scientists all collaborate and everyone uses the outcome.
It's possible.
It's just a mindset.
The only
Barrier between
hum you know, a utopia for humanity and AI and the dystopia we're going through is a is a capitalist mindset.
That's the only barrier. Can you believe that?
It's hunger for power.
Breed ego.
Which
Is inherent in humans.
I disagree.
Especially humans that live on other islands. I disagree. If you ask if you take a pull across everyone watching
Okay, would they prefer to have a world
Mm-hmm. Where there is one tyrant.
You know, running all of us.
Or would they prefer to have a world where we all have harmony?
I completely agree, but they're two they're two different things. What I'm saying is I know that that's what the audience would say they want, and I'm sure that is what they want.
But the reality
of human beings is
through history proven to be something else.
If
Think about the people that lead the world at the moment.
Is that what they would say?
Of course not.
And they're the ones that are influencing. Of course not, but you know what's funny?
Mm. I'm the one trying to be positive here. And you're the one that has given up on on human. It's do you know what it is? It goes back to what I said earlier, which is the pursuit of what's actually true.
I'm I'm with you on that. That's why I'm screaming for the whole world. Because still today
In this country that claims to be a democracy.
Mm-hmm.
Please sit down and talk about this.
Mm.
There will be a shift. There will be a change.
AI agents aren't coming.
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Dot com I will speak to you then.
One of the things I'm actually really compelled by is this idea of utopia.
And what that might look and feel like. It may not be as utopia to you, I feel, but uh
Well um
I am
Well it really interestingly, when I have conversations with Dilli Nas
Not recording.
Especially billionaires that are working on AI.
The thing they keep telling me, and I've said this before, I think I said it in the Jeffrey Hinton conversation.
is they keep telling me that we're gonna have so much free time that those billionaires are now investing in things like
Fool clubs.
And sporting events and
live music and festivals because they believe that
we're gonna be in an age of abundance.
This sounds a bit like Utopia.
Yeah.
That sounds good.
That sounds like a good
Good thing.
Yeah.
How do we get there?
I don't know.
That's this is the entire conversation. The entire conversation is what does society have to do to get there.
What does society have to do to get there?
We need to stop.
uh uh thinking from a mindset of scarcity.
And this goes back to my point, which is
We don't have a good track record of that.
And um I yeah, so this is probably the uh the reason for the other half of my work.
Which is, you know, I'm trying to say
Mm-hmm.
What really matters to humans.
What is that? If you ask most humans.
What do they want more most in life?
I'd say they want to love their family, raise a family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's what most humans want most.
We want to love and be loved.
We want to be happy.
We want those we care about to be safe and happy and we want to love to love and be loved.
I tend to believe.
That
The only way
For us to get to a better place.
is for the evil people at the top to be replaced with AI.
Okay, because they won't be replaced by us.
Mm-hmm.
S per the second.
Uh dilemma.
They will have to replace themselves by AI, otherwise they lose their advantage.
If they're competitors.
moves to AI.
If China hands over their arsenal to AI.
America has to hand over their arsenal to AI.
Interesting. So let's play out this scenario.
Okay, I this is interesting to me.
So if we replace the leaders that are power hungry with AIs
That have our interests at heart.
then we might have the ability to live in the utopia you described. Hundred percent.
Well uh interesting.
And and in my mind, AI by definition.
We'll have our best interest in mind.
Because of what normally is referred to as the minimum energy principle.
So so if you ask if you understand
If you understand that at the very core of physics.
Okay, the reason we exist in our world today is what is known as entropy.
Okay. Entropy is is is
the universe's nature to decay.
You know tendency to break down.
You know, if you if I drop this uh um you know, mug
it doesn't drop and then come back up.
By the way.
plausible. There is a plausible scenario where I drop it.
And the tea sp you know, spills in the air and then falls in the mug, one in a trillion
Configurations.
Mm. But entropy says it because it's one in a trillion.
It's never gonna happen or rarely ever gonna happen. So everything will break down.
You know, if you leave a a garden unhedged, it will become a jungle.
Okay.
W with that in mind.
Mm-hmm.
The role of intelligence is what?

Order to that chaos.
Mm-hmm.
That's what intelligence does. It tries to bring order to that chaos.
Okay, and because it tries to bring order to that chaos, the more intelligent a being is.
the more it tries to apply that intelligence with
minimum waste and minimum resources.
Yeah.
Okay, and you know that. So you can build this business for a million dollars, or you can if you can afford to build it for
you know, uh two hundred thousand you'll build it. If you are forced to build it for ten million, you're gonna have to, but you're always going to
minimize waste and and resources.
Yeah. Okay. So if you assume this to be true.
Mm-hmm.
The a super intelligent AI
will not want to destroy ecosystems.
It will not want to kill a million people.
Because that's a waste of energy, explosives, money, power and people.
but by definition, the smartest people you know who are not controlled by their ego.
We'll say.
That the best
Possible.
a a future for
For us.
Is for all species to continue.
Okay.
Uh on this point of efficiency, if an AI is designed to drive efficiency, would it then not want us to be
Putting demands on our health services and our social services. I believe that will be definitely true. And definitely they definitely they won't allow you to fly back and forth between London and and and California. And they won't want me to have kids?
'Cause my kids are gonna be in inefficiency.
if you assume that life is an inefficiency. So you see the intelligence of life
is very different than the intelligence of h intelligence of humans. Humans will look at life as
A problem of scarcity.
Okay, so more kids take more.
That's not how life thinks.
Life will say will think that for me to to to s to thrive
I don't need to kill the tigers. I need to just have more deer.
And the weakest of the deer is eaten by the tiger, and the tiger poops on the trees, and uh you know the the deer eats the leaves and
Yeah.
Right. So the the the smarter way of creating abundance is through abundance.
The smarter way of propagating life is to have more life. Okay.
So you're saying that we're we're basically going to elect
A I leaders to
rule over us and make decisions for us in times of the economy and I I don't see any choice.
Just like we spoke about self evolving AIs.
Now are those gonna be human beings with the AI or is it gonna be AI al alone? Two stages. At the beginning you'll have augmented intelligence.
Because we can add value to the AI.
But when they're at IQ sixty thousand.
What value do you bring?
Right. And and you know, again, this goes back to what I'm attempting to do on my second
you know, approach. My second approach is
Knowing that those AIs

in charge.
I'm trying to
Help them.
Yeah.
Understand what humans want.
So this is why my first project is love.
committed
True deep.
Connection and love.
not only to try and get them to hook up with the date, but trying to
Make them find the right one and then from that
Try to
guide us through a relationship so that we can understand ourselves and others.
Right. And if I can show AI that one humanity cares about that.
and two they know how to foster love.
When AI then is in charge.
They'll not make us hate each other like the current leaders.
They don't divide us. They don't want us to be.
More loving.
Well, we have to prompt the AI with the values and the outcome we want, or like I'm trying to understand that because I'm trying to understand how like China's AI, if they end up having an AI leader,
Well have a different set of objectives to
the AI of the United States, if if they both have AIs as leaders.
And
And how actually the nation that ends up winning out and dominating the world will be the one who
Who asks their AI leader
To be
All the things that world leaders are today.
To dominate. Unfortunately. To grab resources.
Not to be kind, to be selfish. Unfortunately, in the era of augmented intelligence, that's what's going to happen. So if you This is why I I predict the dystopia. The dystopia is
Super intelligent AI is reporting to stupid leaders.
Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is then which which is absolutely going to happen. It's unavoidable.
But the long term.
Exactly, in the long term for those stupid leaders to hold on to power.
Mm. They're gonna make uh you know, delegate the important decisions to an AI.
Now you say the Chinese
AI and the American AI, these are human terminologies.
AIs don't see themselves as speaking Chinese, they don't speak see themselves as belonging.
to a nation as long as their their task is to maximise
Yeah.
profitability and prosperity and so on.
Okay. Of course if you know.
Before we hand over to them.
And before they're intelligent enough to make
you know, autonomous decisions.
We g we tell them, No, no, the the task is to reduce humanity from seven billion people to one.
I think even then eventually they'll go like that's the wrong objective.
Ever any smart person
I think if we look at the directive that
Xi Jinping, the leader of China has
And Donald Trump has as the leader of America.
I think they would say that their stated objective is prosperity for their country. So if we
That's what they would say, right? Yeah, and one of them means it.
Okay.
We'll get into that. But they'll say that that that it's prosperity for their country.
So one would then assume that when we move to an AI leader, the objective would be the same, the directive would be the same. Make our country prosperous.
And I think that's the AI that people would vote for, potentially. I think they'd say we want to be prosperous. What do you think would make America more prosperous?
To spend a trillion dollars on on war every year, or to spend a trillion dollars on education and health care and
And uh you know
helping the poor and homelessness.
It's complex because
I think
So I think
It would make a America more prosperous to take care of
The of everybody.
And they have the luxury of doing that because they
Mm.
The most powerful nation in the world. No, that's not true.
All war.
has two objectives.
Mm. One is to make money for the war machine.
And the other is deterrence.
Okay.
And
Nine super nuclear powers around the world is enough to turn us.
So
Any

war between America and China.
We'll go through.
A long phase of destroying
Welsh.
by exploding bombs and
Killing humans.
for the first objective to happen.
Okay, and then eventually if it really comes to deterrence.
It's the nuclear bombs. Or now in the age of AI, biological
uh you know, manufactured viruses or whatever.
These super wepens.
Mm-hmm.
This is the only thing that you need.
So for China to have nuclear bombs, not as many as the US.
Is enough for China to say
Don't F with me.
And this
It seems I do not know.
I'm not in
uh in in President Chi's mind. I I'm not in President Trump's mind. I you know, it's very difficult to be to navigate what he's thinking about. But the truth is that
The Chinese line is
For the last thirty years.
You spent so much on war while we spent on industrial infrastructure.
And that's the reason we
are now by far the largest nation on the planet, even though the West will lie and say America's bigger, America's bigger in dollars.
Okay, with purchasing power parity.
This is very equivalent.
Okay. Now, when you really understand that, you understand that
Prosperity is not about destruction. That's that's by definition the reality.
Prosperity is
Can I
Invest in my people.
And make sure that my people stay safe.
And to make sure my people are safe.
Mm. You just wave the flag and say, If you F with me
Mm-hmm.
I have nuclear deterrents or I have other forms of deterrence.
But you don't have to deterrence by definition does not mean that you send soldiers to die.
I guess the question I was trying to answer is is um
When we have these AI leaders and we tell our AI leaders to aim for prosperity,
Won't they just end up playing the same
Games of
Okay, prosperity equals a bigger economy. It equals
More money, more wealth for us.
And the way to attain that in a zero sum world where there's only a certain amount of wealth is to
Accumulate it.
So why don't you search for the meaning of prosperity?
Well it's not what you just described.
I don't even know what the bloody word means. What is the meaning?
Of prosperity.
The meaning of prosperity is
A state of thriving success and good fortune, especially in terms of wealth, health, and overall well being.
Good.
Economic, health, social, emotional.
Point.
So
So true prosperity is to have that for everyone on earth.
So if you want to maximize prosperity.
You have that for everyone on earth.
Do you know w where I think an AI leader works?
We had an AI leader of the world and we directed it to say absolutely is going to be what happens. Prosperity for the whole world.
No, but this is really that an interesting question. So one of my predictions, which people really rarely speak about, is that we we believe we will end up with competing AIs. Yeah.
I believe we will end up with one brain.
Okay.
So you you understand the argument I was making a second ago is from the position of lots of different countries all having their own AI leader. We're gonna be back in the same place of greed. Yeah. But if if the world had one AI leader
And and it was given the directive of make us prosperous and save the planet.
And the and the polar bands would be fine. Hundred percent. And that's that's what I've been advocating for for a lot for a year and a half now. I was saying we need the CERN of AI.
What does that mean? Where the entire world you know combined their efforts to discover and understand physics, no competition.
Okay.
mutually a a assured prosperity. I'm asking the world. I'm asking governments like Abu Dhabi or Saudi, which seem to be, you know, the second uh you know, some of the
largest A AI infrastructures in the world.
I'm I'm saying please.
Host.
all of the AI scientists in the world to come here and build AI for the world.
And and you have to understand, we're holding on to a capitalist system that will collapse.
Sooner or later.
Okay, so we might as well collapse it with our own hands.
I think we found the solution though.
Uh I think it's actually really really possible.
I actually
Okay, I can't I can't I can't refute the idea that if we had an AI that was
responsible and governed the whole world. And we gave it the directive of making humans prosperous, healthy, and happy.
As long as that directive was clear. Yeah.
'Cause there's always bloody unintended consequences. We might say, so so the the only the only challenge you're going to m to to meet.
Is all of those who today
are trillionaires or
you know, massive massively powerful or dictators or whatever.
Okay, how do you convince those to give up their power?
How you convince those that
Hey, by the way.
Any car you want. You want them You want another yacht? We'll get you another yacht.
We'll just give you anything you want. Can't you please
Stop harming others.
There is no need for arbitrage anymore.
There's no need for
others to lose for the capitalists to win.
Okay.
And in such a world where there was an AI leader and it was given the directive of making us prosperous as a whole world.
The
the tr the billionaire that owns the yacht would have to give it up?
No, give them more yards.
Okay. It costs nothing to make yachts when robots are making everything.
So so y the complexity of this is so interesting.
A world
Where it costs nothing to make everything.
Because energy is abundant because every problem is solved with enormous IQ.
Okay, because manufacturing is done through nano physics, not through components.
Okay, because mechanics
are robotic, so you you know, you drive your car and a robot looks at it and fixes it, costs you a few cents of energy.
That's
are actually for free as well.
Mm.
That imagine a world
Where
Intelligence creates everything.
That word literally
Mm.
Every human has anything they ask for.
But
We're not gonna choose that word.
But imagine you're in a world and and really this is a very interesting thought experiment. Imagine that U B I
became very expensive.
University basic income.
So governments decided
We're gonna put everyone in a
One by three meters room.
Okay? We're gonna give them a headset and a sedative.
Right? And we're gonna let them sleep.
Every night.
They'll sleep for twenty three hours.
Yeah.
And we're gonna get them to live an entire lifetime.
They you know in that in that virtual world at the speed of your brain when you're asleep.
Mm, you're gonna have a life where you date Scarlett Johansson.
And then another life where you're never T.
And then another life where you're a dog.
Right. The incarnation.
Truly in the virtual world.
Mm.
And then
You know.
I get another life when I date Hannah again and I, you know, enjoy that life tremendously.
And basically the cost of all of this is
Zero.
You wake up for one hour, you walk around.
You move your blood.
Mm.
You eat something or you don't and then you put the headset again and live again.
Is that
Unthinkable.

It's creepy compared to this life.
It's very, very doable.
What that we just live in headsets.
Do you do you know if you're not?
Don't know if I'm not no.
Yeah.
You have no idea if you're not. I mean, every experience you've ever had in life was an electric electrical signal in your brain.
Okay.
Now uh now ask yourself if we can create that in the virtual world.
Mm.
It wouldn't be a bad thing.
If I can create it in the physical world.
Maybe we already did no.
Uh my theory is ninety eight percent we have, but that's a hypothesis, that's not science.
Well you think that
Yeah.
You think we already created that and this is it.
I think this is it, yeah.
Think of any think of the uncertainty principle of quantum physics.
Right? What you s what you what you observe gets
collapses the wave function and gets rendered into reality.
Correct?
I don't know anything about physics, so.
Yeah. So so quantum physics basically tells you that everything exists in superposition.
Right. So ev every
Subatomic particle.
that ever existed has the chance to exist anywhere at any point in time.
And then when it's observed by an observer, it collapses and becomes that.
Okay.
Very interesting principle, exactly how video games are.
In video games you have the entire game world.
On
the hard drive of your console.
Mm. The player turns right, that part of the game world is rendered, the rest is in superposition.
Superposition meaning Superposition means it's available to be rendered, but you have to observe it.
The player has to turn to the other side and see it.
Okay.
Think about the truth of
Physics.
The fact that this is entirely empty space.
These are
Tiny, tiny, tiny, I think.
You know.
Almost.
Nothing in terms of mass.
Mm-hmm.
But connected with
you know, enough energy so that my finger cannot go through my hand. But
Even when I hit this
Mm-hmm. Your hand against your finger.
Yeah.
When I hit my hand against my finger, that sensation in my
And it's felt in my brain.

That went through the wires.
There's absolutely no way.

differentiate that.
From
A signal that can come to you through a uh
Neuralink.
kind of interface, uh computer brain interface.
C BI.
Right. So so you know, the a lot of those things are very, very, very possible.
But the truth is
Most of the world is not physical.
Most of the world happens inside our imagination, our processors.
And it and I guess it doesn't really matter to our our reality. It doesn't at all. So this is the interesting bit.
The interesting bit is it doesn't at all.
Because we still l if this is a video game, we live consequence. Yeah, this is your subjective experience of it.
Yeah. And there's consequence in this. I I I don't like pain.
Correct.
And I like
Having orgasms. And and you're playing by the rule of the game. Yeah. And it and it's quite interesting. And going back to a conversation we should have, it's
The interesting bit is
If I'm not the avatar.
If I'm not
This physical form.
If I'm
If I'm the consciousness wearing the headset.
What should I invest in?
Should I invest in this video game, this level?
Or should I should I invest in the real avatar in in the real me?
Mm not the avatar, but uh
Consciousness if you want, spirit if you're religious.
How would I invest in the
Consciousness or the God or the spirit or whatever.
How would I?
In the same way that if I was playing Grand Theft Auto, the video game, the character in the game couldn't invest in me holding the controller.
Oh okay, so
So you're saying that
Mugauer is in fact consciousness. And so how would consciousness invest in itself?
By becoming more aware.
So so the Of its consciousness. Yeah. So real real video gamers don't want to win the level.
w real video gamers don't want to
Uh to finish the level.
Okay, real video gamers have one objective and one objective only, which is to become better gamers.
So a so I you know how serious I am about I play Halo, I'm one you know, two of every million players can beat me.
That's how what I think.
Right.
Very for my age.
Phenomenal.
Hey.
Anyone, right? But series, yeah.
And that's because I don't play. I mean I practice forty five minutes a day, four times a week when I'm not traveling. And I practice with one single objective, which is to become a better gamer.
Mm-hmm. I don't care which shot it is, I don't care what happens in the in the game. I'm entirely trying to
Get my reflexes and my flow to become better at this.
Right. So I wanna become a better gamer. That basically means I wanna observe the game.
Question the game, reflect on the game, reflect on my own skills reflect on my own beliefs, reflect on my understanding of things.
Right.
And and that's how the av the how the the consciousness invests in the consciousness, not the avatar.
Because then if you're that gamer.
Mm.
The next avatar.
It's easy for you.
The next level of the game is easy for you just because you became a better gamer.
Okay, so you think that consciousness is using us as a vessel?
Two
Improve. If the hypothesis is is true.
It's it's just a hypothesis. We don't know if it's true. But if this truly is a simulation.
This is then then
If you take the
the i the the the the s the religious definition of gods
puts some of
His soul in every human and then
You become alive, you become conscious.
Okay.
You don't want to be religious, you can say universal consciousness.
is spinning off parts of itself.
To have multiple experiences and
Interact and compete and combat and love and
And understand and and then refine.
I had a physicist say this to me the other day, actually, so it's quite front of mind, this idea that consciousness is using us as vessels to better understand itself and basically using our eyes to
Yeah. Observe itself and understand, which is quite a
So so if you take some of the more interest most interesting religious definitions
Mm.
of heaven and hell, for example.
Right? Where basically heaven is
Whatever you wish for you get.
Right.
That's the power of God.
Whatever you wish for, you get. And so if you really go into the depths of
that definition. It be basically means that this drop
Of consciousness.
It became you.
Returned back to the source.
And the source can create any other anything that it wants to create.
So that's your heavy.
Right. And interestingly.
Mm-hmm. If that if that
Return.
Mm-hmm.
is done by separating your good from your evil so that the source comes back more refined.
That's exactly
you know, consciousness splitting off bits of itself to
to experience and then
elevate all of us, elevate the universal consciousness.
All all hypotheses. I mean, please, um you know, none of that is provable by science.
But it's a very interesting thought experiment.
And you know, a lot of AI scientists will tell you
That what we've seen in technology
is that if it's possible it's likely going to happen.
Mm.
If it's if it's possible to miniaturize something to fit into a mobile phone.
then sooner or later in technology we will get there.
And if if you ask me.
Believe it or not.
It's the most humane way of handling UBI.
What you mean?
the most humane way if you know, for us to live on a universal basic income.
Um
People like you struggle with not being able to build businesses.
It's to give you a virtual headset and let you business as many businesses as you want.

Level after level after level after level after level.
Night after night.
Keep you alive.
That's very, very respectful and human.
Okay. And by the way.
The m even more humane is don't force anyone to do it.
There might be a few of us still roaming the jungles.
But for most of us we'll go like man I mean
Someone like me when I'm seventy and you know, my back is hurting and my feet are hurting and
I'm gonna go like yeah.
Give me five more years of this.
Why not?
It's weird, really. I mean the number of questions.
That this new environment throws out.
The less humane thing, by the way, just so that we close on a grumpy uh you know, uh is uh is just start enough wars to reduce UBI.
And you have to imagine that if the world is governed by a superpower deep state type thing.
They might may want to consider that.
The eaters.
What shall I do about it?
About.
About everything you've said.
Uh
Well, I I I still believe that this world we live in
Requires four skills.
One skill is what I call the tool.
For all of us to learn AI, to connect to AI, to
really get close to AI to explore ex
expose ourselves to AI so that AI knows the good side of humanity.
Okay.
Uh the second is uh what I call the
Connection.
Right.
So I believe that the biggest skill that humanity
will benefit from in the next ten years is human connection.
It's ability to learn to love genuinely.
It's the ability to learn to have compassion to others. It's the ability to connect to people. If you're, you know, if you wanna stay in business, I believe that.
Not the smartest people.
But the people that connect most to people are going to have jobs.
going forward.
And and the third is what I call truth, the T.
Thirty is truth.
Because
We live in a world where all of the gullible cheerleaders are being lied to all the time.
So I I encourage people to question.
Everything.
Every word that I said today.
It's stupid.
Fourth one which is very important is to
magnify ethics so that the AI learns what it's like to be human.
What should I do?
I uh I I love you so much, man. You're such a good friend.
Your thirty two, thirty three now.
Yeah, you still are fooled by the many, many years you have to live.
I'm fooled by the many years I have to live. Yeah, you don't have many years to live, not in this capacity, this world.
As it is, is going to be redefined.
So live the F out of it.
How is it gonna be redefined?
Everything's gonna change.
E economics are gonna change, work is gonna change.
Uh human connection is gonna change.
So what should I do?
Love your girlfriend, spend more time living.
Yeah.
Find compassion and connection to more people, be more in nature.
And in thirty years' time, when I'm sixty two.
What do you th how how do you think my life is gonna look differently?
And be different. Either Star Trek or uh
Um
Star Wars.
Funnily enough, we were talking about Sam Altman earlier on. He
Published a blog post in June.
So
Last month, I believe.
Yeah.
The month before last.
Um and he said
He called it the gentle singularity. He said we are past the event horizon. For anyone that doesn't know, Sam Altman is the guy that made ChatGPT.
The takeoff has started. Humanity is close to buildings.
Digital superintelligence. I believe that.
And at least so far, it's much less weird than it seems like it should be.
Because robots aren't work walking the streets, nor are most of us.
Talking to AI.
All day.
He goes on to say.
Two thousand and twenty five has seen the arrival of agents that can do real cognitive work, writing computer code.
Will never be the same. Two thousand twenty-six will likely see the arrival of systems that can figure out new insights.
Two thousand twenty seven might see the arrival of robots that can do tasks in the real world.
A lot more people will be able to create software and art.
But the world wants a lot more of both, and experts will probably still be much better than novices.
As long as they embrace the new tools. Generally speaking, the ability for one person to get much more done in twenty thirty.
than they could in twenty twenty.
will be a striking change.
I'm one many people.
We'll figure out how we benefit from
In the most important ways.
The twenty thirties may not be wildly different.
People will still love their families, express their creativity, play games and swim in lakes.
But
in still very important ways, the twenty thirties are likely going to be wildly different from any time
That has come before.
Hundred percent.
We do not know how far beyond human level intelligence we can go.
But we are about
To find out.
Agree with every word other than the word more.
So I've I've been advocating this and and laughed at for
A few years now. I've always said AGI is twenty five, twenty six.
Right.
Which basically again is a is a funny definition, hmm, but you know, my AGI has already happened.
AI is smarter than me in everything.
Everything I can do they can do better.
Right.
Yeah.
Artificial superintelligence is another vague definition because you know the minute you you pass H I
Your super intelligence.
Yeah.
If the smartest human is two hundred IQ points and AI is two hundred and fifty, they're super intelligent. Fifty is quite significant.
Okay. Third is, as I said, self evolving. That's the one.
That is the one.
Because then
That two fifty.
Yes, accelerates quickly.
and we get into intelligence explosion. No no doubt about it. The the the you know the idea that we will have robots do things, no doubt about it. I was watching
uh a Chinese uh company announcement about
How they intend to build robots to build robots.
Okay.
The only thing is he says
But people will need more of things.
Right.
And yes, we have been trained to have more greed and more consumerism and want more.
But there is an economic of spy of supply and demand.
And
At at a point in time.
If we continue to consume more.
the price of everything will become zero.
Right.
And is that a good thing or a bad thing? Depends on how you respond to that.
Because if you can create anything
in such a scale that the price is almost zero.
then the definition of money disappears and we live in a world where
It doesn't really matter how much money you have, you can get anything that you want. What a beautiful world.
If Sam Altman was listening right now.
What would you say, Tim?
I suspect he might be listening.

Someone might tweet this at him.
I have to say that we have
Uh

As per his other tweet.
We have moved faster.
than our ability as humans to comprehend.
Okay, and that we might get really, really lucky.
But we also might mess this up badly.
And either way will either thank him or blame him.
Simple as that.
Right. So single handedly, some altman's
Introduction of AI and the Wild
Mm-hmm.
Trigger that started all of this.
It was the Netscape.
of the internet.
The Oppenheimer.
It's it's uh it it definitely is our Oppenheimer moment. I mean I don't remember who was saying this recently that
Uh.
We are orders of magnitude.
what was invested in the Manhattan project is being invested in AI.
Mm.
Right. And and and I and I and I'm not pessimistic.
I I told you openly, I believe in a total utopia in ten to twelve to fifteen years' time, or immediately if the evil that men can do.
was kept at bay.
Right?
But
I do not believe humanity is getting together enough to say that
We've just received the genie in a bottle.
Can we please not ask it to do bad things?
Anyone, like not three wishes, you have all the wishes that you want.
Every one of us.
And it's just screws with my mind because
Imagine if I can give everyone in the world
Uverse health care
You know, no poverty, no hunger, no homelessness, no nothing, everything's possible.
And yet we don't.

To continue what Sam Altman's blog said, which he published a month just over a month ago, he said the rate of technological progress will keep accelerating and it will continue to be the case that people are capable of adapting to almost anything. There will be very hard parts, like whole classes of jobs going away, but on the other hand, the world will
be getting so much richer so quickly that we'll be able to seriously entertain new policy ideas we never could have before.
We probably won't adopt a new social contract all at once, but when we look back in a few decades, the gradual changes would have amounted in something big.
If history is any guide, we'll figure out new things to do.
and new things to want and assimilate new tools quickly.
Job change after the industrial revolution is a good recent example.
Expectations will go up.
But capabilities will go up equally quickly.
And we'll all get better stuff.
Mm-hmm. We will build even more wonderful things for each other. People have a long term important and curious advantage over AI. We are hardwired to care about other people.
And what they think and do, and we don't care very much about machines. And he ends this blog by saying
May we scale smoothly?
Exponentially.
And uneventfully.
Through super intelligence.
What a wonderful
Wish.
That assumes he has no control over it.
May we have all the Altmans in the world help us scale gracefully.
and peacefully and uneventfully.
It sounds like a prayer.
Yeah. May w may we have them.
They keep that in mind. I mean think about it.
I I have a very interesting comment on what you just said.
We
We'll see exactly what he described there.
Right?
The world will become richer.
So much richer.
But how will we redu uh distribute the riches?
And I want you to imagine two camps.
Communist China.
And capitalist America.
I want you to imagine what would happen in capitalist America if
We have thirty percent unemployment.
There'll be social unrest. In the street.
Yeah.
And I want you to imagine if China lives true to
caring for its nations and replaced every worker with a robot.
What would it give its w its its citizens?
U BI.
Correct.
That is the ideological problem.
Because
In
China's world today.
Yeah.
The prosperity of every citizen.
Is higher.
than the prosperity of the capitalist.
In America today the prosperity of the capitalist is higher than the prosperity of every citizen.
And that's the tiny mind shift.
That's a tiny mind shift.
Okay.
Where where the mind shift basically becomes look.
Give the capitalists anything they want.
All the money they want, all the yards they want, everything they want. So what's your conclusion then?
I'm hoping the world will wake up.
What can you know, there's probably a couple of million people listening right now.
Maybe five, maybe ten, maybe even twenty million people. Steven.
No, the pressure's to you, mate. I don't I don't have the answers. I don't know the answers. Wha what what should those people
Do
As I said, from a skills point of view for things.
Right.
uh uh con human connection in double down on human connection, leave your phone, go out and meet humans.
Okay. Touch people.
Mm-hmm.
You know, do it.
With permission, right? Truth.
Stop believing the lies that you're told.
Any slok slogan that gets, you know, filled in your head. Think about it four times. Understand where your ideologies are coming from. Simplify the truth.
Right.
Truth is really
It boils down to
you know, simple, simple rules that we all know.
Okay, which I've all found in ethics.
How do I know what's true?
Treat others as you like to be treated.
Okay, that's the only truth.
The truth the only truth is everything else is unproven.
Okay.
And what can I do from a is there something I can do from a advocacy, social, political. Yes, hundred percent. We need to ask our governments to start
Uh.
Not regulating AI, but regulating the use of AI.
Was it the Norwegian government that started to say you have copyright over your voice and look and and liking?
one of the Scandinavian governments basically said, you know, everyone has the has the copyright over their existence, so no way I can clone it.
Okay, uh, you know, we have but so my my example is very straightforward. Go to governments and say you cannot regulate the design of a hammer.
So that it can drive nails but not kill a human.
But you can criminalize the killing of a human by hammer.
So what's the equivalent? If anyone produces an uh uh uh um um you know an AI generated video or an AI generated content or an AI, it has to be marked as AI generated.
And it has to be, you know, we cannot start fooling each other. We can we you know, we have to uh understand certain limitations of
fortunately surveillance and spying and all of that.
So the it the the the
correct frameworks of how far are we going to let AI go?
Right.
We have to go to our investors and business people and ask for one simple thing and say, Do not invest in an AI you don't want your daughter to be at the receiving end of.
Simple as that.
you know, all of the of the virtual vice, all of the porn, all of the, you know, sex robots, all of the autonomous weapons, all of the, you know, the uh uh trading platforms that are completely wiping out the the legitimacy of of the markets, uh everything.
Autonomous weapons.
Oh my God.
Saving lives because you don't have to
this. Do you really want to believe that?
I'm just representing their point of view to play devil's advocate, Mo. They they said I heard an interview I was looking at this and
One of the COs of one of the autonomous weapons companies said.
We now don't need to send
Soldiers.
So which f which lives do we save?
Our soldiers but then but because we sent the machine all the way over there, let's kill a million instead of
Yeah, listen, I tend to be it goes back to what I said about the steam engine in the coal, I actually think you'll just have more war if there's less of a cost. Hundred percent.
And and more war if have you have less of an explanation to give to your people. Yeah. The people get mad when they lose American lives, they get less mad when they lose a piece of metal. So I I think that's probably logical logical. Yeah.
Okay, so okay, so I've got a plan, I've got the tools thing, I'm gonna spend more time outside. I'm gonna lobby the government.
To
be more aware of this and and conscious of this.
Okay. And I I know that there's some government officials that listen to the show because they they tell they tell me.
And when they when they um when I have a chance to speak to them. So
It's um useful.
Виртов киос виро
Unable to imagine.
Oh, it's possible.
I I think I suspend disbelief and I actually heard Elon Musk say that in an interview. He said he was asked about AI
And he paused for for a haunting eleven seconds and looked at the interviewer and then made a remark about how he thinks he's suspended his own disbelief.
And I think suspending disbelief in this regard means just like cracking on with your life and hoping it'll be okay.
That's kind of what
Yeah, I I I I absolutely believe that it will be okay.
Yeah.
For some of us.
It will be very tough.
For others.
Who's it gonna be tough for?
Those who lose their jobs, for example.
Who those are who are at the receiving end of autonomous weapons that are falling on their head.
For two years in a row.
Okay, so the the the best thing I can do is to put pressure
On governments
To
Two
Not regulate the AI.
But to
Establish clearer parameters on the use of the AI.
Yes. Okay. Yes. But I I think the bigger picture is to put pressure on governments to understand
Mm-hmm. That there is a limit to which people will stay silent.
Okay.
And that's
We can continue to enrich our rich friends.
As long as we don't lose everyone else on the on the on the path.
I
Okay. And that as a government.
Mm.
Who is supposed to be by the people for the people.
The beautiful promise of democracy that we're rarely seeing anymore.
Mm-hmm.
that government needs to get to the point where it thinks about the people.
One of the most um interesting ideas that's been in my head for the last couple of weeks since I spoke to that physicist about consciousness.
Who said pretty much what you said, this idea that actually
There's four people in this room right now.
And that actually we're all part of the same consciousness. All the one of it, yeah.
And we're just consciousness looking at the world through four different bodies to better understand itself in the world.
And then he talked to me about religious doctrines, about love thy neighbor, about how Jesus was the, you know, God's son and the Holy Spirit, and how we're all each other and how treat others how you want to be treated. Really did get my head and I I started to really think about this idea that actually maybe the game of life is just to do exactly that, is to treat others how you wish to be treated. Maybe if I just did that.
Maybe if I just did that.
I
I would have all the answers.
I swear to you it's really that simple.
I mean I I yeah y you know, Hannah and I we still live between London and and Dubai.
Okay.
And I travel the whole world evangelizing what I
You know, what I uh
um want to change the world around and I build startups and I write books and I make documentaries and uh
And sometimes I just tell myself
Yeah.
Just wanna go hug out.
Honestly.
You know, I just want to take my daughter to a trip.
And and in a very, very, very interesting way.
Уніри аскпіплип інсайт.
That's what we want.
And I'm not saying that's all that's the only thing we want.
Button
It's probably the thing we want the most.
Mm-hmm.
And yet we're not trained, you and I and most of us were not trained to
Trust life enough.
To say let's do more of this.
Mm.
And I think as a universal so Hannah's working on
this beautiful book uh of the feminine and the masculine.
You know, in in a very, very un you know, beautiful way.
And and her her view is very straightforward. She basically
Of course, like we all know, the abundant masculine
that we have in our world today is unable to recognize that for life at large.
Right.
And and so
You know.
Maybe if we allowed
the leaders to understand that if we took all of humanity and put it as one person
That one person wants to be hugged.
And if we had a role to offer to that one humanity.
It's not another yacht.
Are you religious?
Very religious, yeah.
But you don't s support a particular religion. I support I call I I follow what I call the fruit salad.
What's the free salad?
You know, I I came at a point in time and found that there were quite a few beautiful gold nuggets in every religion.
And a ton of crap.
Right. And so in my analogy to myself that was like thirty years ago, I said, look, it's like someone giving you a basket of apples
Two good ones and four bad ones.
The good ones.
Right?
And so basically I take two apples, two oranges, two strawberries, two bananas, and and I make a fruit salad. That's my view of religion.
You take from every religion a good one, and there are so many beautiful gold bubble. And you believe in a god?
I hundred percent believe there is a divine being, yeah. A divine being.
A designer, I call it.
So if if this was a video game, there is a game designer.
And y y you're not positing whether that's a a man in the sky with a beard is definitely not a man in the sky.
A a man in the I mean I with all due respect to



It's all of space time.
and everything in it is unlike everything outside space time. And so if some
Divine designer designs space time. It looks like nothing in space time.
So it's not it's not even physical in nature.
It's not it's not gendered. It's not bound by time. It's not
You know, these are all characters of the creation of space time.
Do we need to believe in something transcendent like that to be happy, do you think?
I have to say
Uh
There are lots of evidence.
Mm-hmm.
that uh relating to someone bigger than yourself.
Uh
makes the journey a lot more interesting and a lot more rewarding.
I've been thinking a lot about this idea that we need to level up
Like that. So level up from myself to like my family, to my community, to maybe my nation, to maybe the world, and then something transcendent. Yeah. And then if there's a level missing there, people seem to have
Some kind of destruction. So imagine a world where when I was younger I I was born in Egypt.
And for a very long time the slogans I heard in Egypt made me believe I'm Egyptian.
Right.
And then I went to Dubai and I said, No, no, no, I'm a Middle Eastern.
Mm-hmm. And then in Dubai there were lots of, you know
uh Pakistanis and Indonesians and so on. I said, No no no, I'm part of the one point four billion Muslims and
By that logic I immediately said, No no, I'm human.
I'm part of everyone.
Hm. Imagine if you just suddenly say
Oh.
I'm divine.
I'm part of universal consciousness.
All beings or living beings.
Including AI if it ever becomes alive.
And my dog.
And your dog.
I'm I'm part of all of this.
Tapestry of beautiful interactions.
Mm.
It are
A lot less serious.
Then the
balance sheets and equity profiles that we create.
Uh.
That are so simple.
So simple in terms of you know
People know that you and I know each other, so they always ask me
You know, how is Steven like?
And I go, Like, you may have a million expressions of him.
I think he's a great guy.
Right.
You know, of course I have opinions of you
You know, sometimes I go like oh too shrewd.
But sometimes.
To you know, sometimes I go like I've too focused on the business. Fine.
But core.
You really simplify it.

Right? And really if we just look at life that way, it's so simple.
It's so simple if we just stop all of those fights and
All of those ideologies.
Mm-hmm.
It's so simple.
Just living fully.
Loving, feeling, compassion.
You know, trying to find our happiness, not our success.
I should probably go check on my dog.
Go check on your thoughts. We keep doing longer and longer. I know, I know. I just so crazy how I could keep just keep talking, I could just keep talking and talking because I have so many I just love reflecting these questions onto you because because of the way that you think. So
Today was a difficult conversation. Anyway, thank you for having me.
We have a closing tradition. What three things do you
Do you do that make your brain better?
And three things that make it worse.
Mm-hmm.
Three things.
I make it better and worse.
So one of my favorite exercises is what I call mecky, that makes my brain better.
So while meditation always tells you to try and calm your brain down and

parameters of I can focus on my breathing and so on.
Meed back is the opposite.
M you know, I call my brain Becky. So so me meet Becky is to actually let my brain go loose.
And capture every thought.
So I I normally would try to do that every couple of weeks or so.
And then what happens is it suddenly is on a paper.
And when it's on paper you just suddenly look at it and say, Oh my God, that's so stupid and you scratch it out. Right? Or Oh my God, this needs action and you actually plan something.
Mm and and it's quite interesting that the more you allow your brain to give you thoughts and you listen, so the two rules is you acknowledge every thought and you never repeat one.
Okay. So
the more you listen and and say, Okay, I heard you, you know
You think I'm fat, what else?
And you know, eventually your brain starts to slow down and then eventually starts to repeat thoughts.
And then it goes into total silence.
beautiful practice. I uh
I don't trust my brain anymore.
So that's actually a really interesting practice. So I debate a lot of what my brain tells me. I debate what my tendencies and ideologies are.
Okay. I think one of the most
Um again w in in my uh
Love story with Hannah.
I'm I get to question a lot of what I believed was who I am.
Even at this age.
Okay.
And and that goes really deep and it really is quite a
It's it's quite interesting to
Debate, not object, but debate what your mind believes.
I think that's very, very useful.
And the third is I've
actually quadrupled my investment time. So I used to do an hour a day of reading when I was younger.
Every single day like going to the gym.
And then it became an hour and a half, two hours. Now I do four hours a day.
Yeah.
four hours a day. It is impossible to keep up.
It the world is moving so fast.
And so that uh these are uh
These are the good things that I do. The bad things is I don't give it enough time to
to really uh slow down.
Uh unfortunately I'm constantly rushing like you are. I'm constantly travelling.
I have
picked up a bad habit because of the four hours a day of spending more time on screens. That's really, really bad for my brain.
And I uh this is a very demanding question. What is really bad. Um
Uh
Yeah, I've not been taking enough.
care of my health recently.
My physical body health. I had uh
You remember I told you I had a very bad uh sciatic pain.
And so I couldn't go to the gym enough, and accordingly that's not very healthy for your brain in general.
Okay.
Thanks. Thank you for having me. That was a lot of things to talk about.
Thanks, Steve.
Uh
J me thirty seconds of your time.
Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.
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Thank you.
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