#871: The “Divine Leaf” with 8,000+ Years of Use — Exploring the Many Benefits of Coca with Dr. Andrew Weil and Wade Davis

0:00 Hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Paris. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Paris Show. This is a three way. This is A podcast featuring two bucking broncos and intellectual greats. I am excited to introduce you to both Wade Davis and Dr. Andrew Wilde. They've both been on separately before. But in this particular instance they are united in in their deep interest and long term use of

0:25 The divine leaf. AKA coca leaf. Which has eight thousand plus years of human use documented We'll get into lots of details on that. And why on earth I might feature this on this podcast. But let's get to some bios for those who don't know these fellas. Wade Davis is an ethnographer, writer, photographer, and filmmaker. From twenty fourteen to twenty twenty-four, he served as Professor of Anthropology and BC Leadership Chair in Cultures and Ecosystems at Risk at the University of British Columbia, and from 2000 to 2013 as explorer in residence at the National Geographic Society.

0:59 With a PhD from Harvard in ethnobotany, he spent three years among 15 indigenous groups in the Amazon and the Andes. He's the author of twenty-four books in 26 languages. We'll get to how he credits Coca for a lot of that productivity, including the Samuel Johnson Prize winning into the silence. Dr. Andrew Weil is a pioneer in integrative medicine and founder of the Andrew Weil Center for Integrative Medicine at the University of Arizona, where he holds the Lovell Jones Endowed Chair. And serves as clinical professor of medicine and professor of public health. He earned his biology degree from Harvard College and an MD from Harvard Medical School. Later researching medicinal and psychoactive plants at the Harvard Botanical Museum. In nineteen seventy nine, he founded the Beneficial Plant Research Association, revitalizing that in twenty twenty four as its president. A New York Times bestselling author, 15 books, and named by time among the world's one hundred most influential people, he co founded True Food Kitchen. One of my favorites, and matcha.com. You can find Wade Davis at DavisWaid.com and Dr. Wile at Dr.Wile D R.

2:04 W E I L dot com and without further ado, please enjoy this wide ranging Conversation. All about, but not limited to. Okay.

2:14 Optimal minimal. At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. So another thing also does some questions. Now it is. A cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoscalet. No

2:38 I thought Andy we could start with The Ethnobotanical medicinal side of things. Because I'll share it. Perhaps an anecdote to kick us off, which was

2:50 I as both of you have spent a lot of time in South America. And it's not always to end up in the lower upper Amazon consuming questionable substances. It's sometimes to do other things like visit cities and spend time with friends and go skiing. And the skiing In this case was in Chile and it was the first instance where we landed in Santiago.

3:14 drove to elevation very quickly and I had my first experience with Terrible. altitude sickness. And for those who have not experienced it, I do not wish it upon my worst enemy. It is And absolutely Horrific.

3:30 Experience. It's terrible. And Even though the legal status, I think, is a question marker. Maybe it's very directly forbotten in Chile. the uh locals in the lodge Gave me.

3:45 Coca-Leaf Tea And within several hours. no symptoms and they did not recur past that point, which blew my mind, particularly since even with Diamox To help with altitude. Acclamation.

3:59 My experience has been that it takes a few days. And I did not have any good way to explain this, particularly given my levels of exertion. And Not surprisingly, in other countries, whether it's Peru, Colombia Certainly if you look at the Kogies and so on, this plant.

4:18 Is На час incredibly important from a Let's just call it for lack of a better term religious perspective. cultural perspective, but also medicinal perspective. So I was hoping, Andy, you could

4:31 Give a primer on What makes coca The plant. Interesting. Let me say I first

4:39 Met Coca in nineteen sixty five. I just finished my first year of medical school. My mentor Dick Schultees, who was director of the Harvard Botanic Museum, sent me to South America. To collect medicinal plants with one of his graduate students in the Amazon in the Andes. And I met with him right before I left and he said

4:58 When you're in Peru, be sure to chew coca. He said it's a very interesting plant and you want to learn about it. So I did. And I have been using Coca ever since.

5:09 And my original interest was to find out how this was used. My indigenous peoples. Medicinally, it's as important to that population as peppermint and chamomile are. In European medicine. No, it's their major medicinal plant.

5:24 And the main indication is for treating G. I disorders. But it also it is obviously Relying on to provide energy. And doing physical work. To help with altitude sicknesses you mentioned.

5:38 To boost mood. And to improve metabolism. You know, the population in the Andes especially is often not well nourished. And they eat a very high starch diet. They have high incidence of genes predisposing them to type two diabetes.

5:54 But they don't have diabetes if they are on their traditional diets. And Exercising and chewing coca, but if they move to lower altitude And stop chewing coca. And eat more like

6:06 the Blanco population in Peru, they develop very high rates of type two diabetes. So that's quite interesting, you know, that it has some normalizing effect on blood sugar. And metabolism, which is something that I'd really like to see good research on. So I think there are multiple uses and these are not attributable to effects of cocaine. And I think this is most important that in coca there are fourteen alkaloids. Cocaine is one of them.

6:31 And they all have similar chemical structures and none of them have ever been studied. You know, once we isolated cocaine from the leaf. Everybody lost interest in everything else. So we don't really know what those other things do and how they modify the activity of cocaine.

6:46 The amount of cocaine in Coke is relatively small. No, we've but not we worth anybody's time on a home scale to try to extract cocaine from coca, you need a tonage of leaves to get a significant amount. But I think the most important point is that this whole complex of compounds acting together is responsible for the effects.

7:05 know people report as being, you know, very beneficial both uh for mental health and physical health. Could you say more about the Digestive. Or metabolic effects. Do we have an idea of the mechanism of action there? What it's actually doing? Cook has been remarkably little studied.

7:23 No, for a plant of such enormous historical, cultural, economic Scientific medical importance. There is an almost complete absence of research on it. And Wade can talk about the reasons for that. But One of the things that struck me when I was interviewing people in the Andes about the GI effects.

7:42 was that the respondents said that it treated both diarrhea and constipation. That doesn't make any sense from the point of view of Western pharmacology. Cocaine is a gut stimulant. So Obviously be great for constipation, but They couldn't do anything for diarrhea except make it worse.

7:58 And that always puzzled me, but then looking at these other coca alkaloids. There's something peculiar about them. If you look at the structural formula of the molecules They resemble drugs like atropine and scopolamine, which are found in nightshade plants. And those are gut paralytics. Scopalamine has been used in medicine to treat diarrhea. So this is kind of a paradox. You've got a molecule

8:23 Just from its shape you predict would be a gut paralytic. But in fact, cocaine is a gut stimulant. So how does this work? I think You know, this is a model for the differences between A whole plant. drug and an isolated compound.

8:37 I think when you present the body with this mix Of Ambivalent. Molecules no that push and they pull against physiology.

8:46 The body decides what it wants to use. That's not attributing mystical intelligence to the body. It may be which receptors are available for binding at the moment. So if there is an overact of Got motility, it selects the ones that slow that down. That's fascinating to me that Foka has this sort of Paradoxical.

9:06 activity and lets the body can choose which action it wants. So beyond Let's just say Making bowel movement regular for lack of a better descriptor. Is it ever used by indigenous populations for what we might consider

9:23 Illnesses like Crohn's disease or irritable bowel syndrome. I don't even know what the occurrence of those things would be in such populations, but Is it used for other indications? It is the great remedy for old GI disorders. And also they believe that it helps them utilize

9:40 the nutritional qualities of foods that they consume. And often feel that if they don't Follow like a meal. You know, one of their high starch meals with a That they don't metabolize it well.

9:52 There has been almost no research on this, but there was one really interesting study done With Andean Indians. Having them ride, exercise, bikes. And measuring blood sugar at intervals.

10:05 No, after they gave them uh Lucos load. And at any point in the cycle where they began to Chicoka Blood sugar would normalize. So this is just one study that was done some time ago. And I I mean, gosh, that should just call out for a whole lot more.

10:21 Work of that kind. That's fascinating. Yeah, super fast. So I wanted to just mention a few things for folks. Pulling from what you just said. So you mentioned Dick Shaltes. If people don't recognize the name Richard Evan Shaltes. I guess that's what S C H U L T E S

10:39 Look him up. Do yourself a favor and look up Richard Evan Shalty's The bio. And Wade was his graduate student. I was I worked with him as an undergraduate, but that's how Wade and I first met. Yeah. Prove him. Just incredible.

10:53 And I may come back to the permanent chamel. Sidebar that you had because that seems interesting in and of itself. But to your point. Uh Isolated.

11:04 components of a plant versus the whole plant. There are many historical examples of this. One that we could pull from that can show perhaps the pitfalls of isolation, not to say there aren't applications of isolation. But If scientists came to the premature conclusion that, well, if consuming foods with beta carotene seems to be supportive to vision, why don't we just mainline Isolated beta carotene turns out not to be a great idea.

11:34 There's a lot more research needed. Wade, do you wanna speak to your first Introduction and counter with Coca, and perhaps. Speak to why rehabilitation is even

11:46 Needed. I think some people might jump to the conclusions like Well, cocaine drug trade, period, end of story, but I suspect there's probably more there. In South America by virtually every culture, the Andean and North West Amazon. For eight thousand years. And during that time there's been no evidence whatsoever of any toxicity, let alone addiction. My first encounter was actually with Tim Plowman, who had a good friend of Andy's who introduced me to Andy.

12:14 Who had a great grant from through Schulties to study Coke in the nineteen seventies. And it spoke to the fact what Andy said is how little was known about the plant. I mean, one of the most astonishing things is that The plant had been demonized from the nineteen twenties. And yet no one had ever bothered to do a nutritional study.

12:33 Until Tim and Jim Duke did that. And published in nineteen seventy five and and Andy was sort of on part of that team and the results were extraordinary. Not only did it have a modest amount of the alkaloid. Absorb benignely in the mucous membrane of the mouth.

12:48 But it was chopp full of vitamins and proteins, uh more calcium than any other plant studied. As Andy alluded to it enzymes that perhaps Enhance the ability of the body to digest carbohydrate at a high elevation. This was Food and medicine.

13:02 Utter benign. And The question comes why Didn't someone do a study? And they didn't do a study'cause they didn't want to know. And I think the single most disturbing

13:13 A fact about coca. Is that the efforts to eradicate the fields, the traditional fields of cocaine Began sixty years before there was a cocaine problem. It had nothing to do with the pharmacology of cocaine hydrochloride. And everything to do with the cultural identity of the indigenous people who revered the plant.

13:33 And what happened is physicians in Lima in particular looked up into the Andes and they saw social pathologies of literacy Poor nutrition, poverty. And because issues of economics and land reform and Real economic justice. Challenge the foundation of their bourgeois lives in Lima.

13:51 They had to find a culprit and they settled on Coca. Longtime listeners know how important privacy is to me. In fact, my friends would call me paranoid, or they used to call me paranoid, and now they think I was just depression in a sense. These days, you may have noticed, it is a lot harder. to protect privacy. Anyone can find your information with a quick search. It's shockingly easy. And I've had friends and paid people to red team me to try to find my info. And uh What you'll notice is that shadowy data brokers quietly collect and trade your home address, phone, family members, and more. It's a mess. You have to have a plan for defense.

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15:22 Tim. I've been eating Maui Nui venison now for more than five years, and I eat it practically every week. Why on earth would I do that? Well It is the cleanest and most nutrient dense red meat you can buy full stop, period. And even my blood work reflects this. Compared to grass fed beef, for instance, it has eight times more omega three DHA. And EPA, four times more antioxidants, and 50% more protein per calorie. Maui Nui has just released its most important innovation to date, the Ohana Reserve Aged Cuts. What is this? It is the only wild harvested Axis deer that's been naturally aged for 14 days to enhance tenderness. consistency and depth of flavor. Reserved age cuts are only available by subscription through the Ohana reserve box. Try it out. Visit MauiNuiVenison.com slash Tim. That's M A U I, like Maui, the Island, Nui and U I, which is big Maui, by the way. Maui Nui Venison, M A U I

16:20 N U I venison.com slash Tim. I My observation is that Peru is a nation actually a country with two nations within it. There is the white

16:35 European nation with its capital at Lima that has alcohol as its preferred you know, psychoactive drug and there's the indigenous population mostly living at high altitude and some in the Amazon. That rely on coca. And those two cultures have been at war with each other ever since. For the Europeans, cocachewing became a symbol.

16:54 of indigenous culture. And everything they didn't like and What they would love to see is either eradicate that culture or have it turn into the same as them. Well, I mean these efforts were really pernicious and based on pseudoscience, and during all those years, including a famous commission dispatched in late nineteen forties by the UN to study the so called coca problem.

17:19 That commission led by a man called Howard Fonda, who's a pharmaceutical executive. Announced its conclusions before leaving New York. And upon arrival in Lima reiterated word for word those same conclusions that the plant had to be eradicated. And they spent three months in the southern Andes. Meeting with military officials on Caldes, uh

17:39 Government officials. Priest. They didn't interview a single traditional user of the leaf and naturally They concluded that this plant had to be eradicated. And I think if you really look at the language that used

17:53 It was not just dark. It was Racist. And that alludes to what Andy's saying that Until recently, Latin America, not just Peru, was very much a place of conqueror and conquered. And Coca became the symbol of everything indigenous and therefore shameful to these elites. Way, do you want to say something about the recent WHO?

18:13 Study which is a continuation of all this. This condemnation of coca was in language that was Just so dark and racist. And the amazing thing though is that these very people with their pseudo scientific studies and their Hideous approach and language.

18:30 We're the very ones who wrote the language of the Regulations. And conventions that dictate international drug policy to this day, including The nineteen sixty one UN declaration. On narcotic drugs.

18:44 And In all of this time. There have been no effort to actually identify the real value of the plant. And efforts have been underway more recently to get coca descheduled or rescheduled in the UN system. Coca Leaf is now scheduled alongside with fentanyl and heroin.

19:02 as among the most dangerous drugs in the world. And the efforts that we've been trying to do is to get it to either be scheduled to the point where it's Seem to be Oh. problem but medicinal potential or better yet these schedule all together

19:16 So that we can create a license Market for the plant, and here's the reason for that. We have two hundred fifty thousand families in Colombia that grow coca to survive. We need to give them illicit outlet for their product. Colombia as a nation needs the revenue, the tax revenue that can come from the international Commercialization of the leaf.

19:35 Drained its treasury for sixty years to pay the costs of a war that would have not lasted a day without the sword profits of Prohibition. And above all, the world's population has a right to

19:48 benefit from this plant. You know, we have an enormous substance abuse problem in our country. And a lot of it has to do with stimulant abuse. And there's also the problem of the Reckless prescribing of stimulants to kids.

20:03 Andy, could I ask you to bookmark that for a second?'Cause I want to give people a window into coca leaf. So they understand the subjective experience for a second? In Peru and other places. I mean shocking to me. I think it was in Peru where I saw they were selling boxes of coca leaf tea and the international departures. Wing and I was like guys I wanna take this with me, but I can't. The subjective effect of drinking coca leaf tea.

20:30 is a Among other things, a stimulant effect. That is far less for me than a half a cup of coffee. But without the subsequent crash that Maybe due to any number of things. I think it could be a glucose spike and then

20:45 Subsequent crash, but it is very, very, very mild. Okay, no, we have to say that coca leaf tea is not the most efficient way to use coca. A traditional way is to hold leaves in your mouth. And moisten them, add an alkali which promotes absorption of the Alkaloids and let it slowly diffuse into the bloodstream. No, I don't think people up here are gonna

21:06 To a mouthful of leaves. But you know, I've always thought we could make a lozenge or a chewing gum that would reproduce that. You could have a snus packet like nicotine. Right. Yeah. Right. Exactly. But the stimulant effect is so much milder. And Wade can talk to this too, I think then coffee.

21:23 For example. Or than any of the pharmaceutical stimulants. The really fascinating literature is Nate nineteenth century when physicians traveling in Peru were aware of the hazards of cocaine. But not yet judging.

21:38 The leaves. Reflexively. And the reports have this Ingenuous quality, Tim, like I mean there's one from the the head of the British Medical Association who

21:47 Was seventy eight years old. He got up in the morning, half walks halfway across Scotland, climbs the mountain, gets down, doesn't eat all day. Well that was quite a day. Yeah, in other words there's this Mortimer talls it like the stimulant that's not a stimulant.

22:01 And so this is really the way The plant Operates the subtlety of it. You don't feel you're stimulated, you just recognize the results of having been able to focus, concentrate And remain at task in a creative way.

22:14 Through a long period of time. But we do a little thought experiment. If I told you there was a plant that you could take That gave you a slight lightness of being. Skipping your step.

22:25 A sense of well being that eliminated all these sort of existential little neuroses that we all suffer as conscious beings. And it allowed you to focus at task, whatever that creative task was whether it was a spinning of wool Or the writing of digital code. And you could sit a task all day long.

22:43 Concentrating on task with immense focus and With no sense of being under the influence of any plan, nothing as harsh as A second cup of coffee. And you found yourself at the end of the day ready to go home. Have dinner and do it all over again the next day.

23:00 The truth is that Coca has this capacity to improve our lives. It also helps with weight management, Tim, because uh it makes you less hungry and feeling like you want to move. So That is a very desirable thing that many people would find useful. And I think the mood elevating effects of cocoa are very significant. Let me ask a question on the mind of a lot of listeners. I'll also just add in, I have used the sort of mouth buckle in the form of goes by a million different names, you know, Mambay or whatever. And

23:31 Even in that case, very, very mild. And what I would say if I were to compare it to other things. As my long term listeners might imagine, I've tried medafinil, I've tried the Various. Amphetamines, you know, Adderall, Ritalin, et cetera.

23:47 And The difference is that number one you have Thousands of years of human use. document in the case of Coco. Secondly

23:57 I did not seem to develop Any type, I'm sure you do develop some tolerance. But for instance, if I use midaphanol for two or three days and I stop. I immediately feel a physical requirement to use it to get back to my prior baseline. And that does not happen in the case Coca, it certainly happens in the case of caffeine. For me.

24:17 And cocaine. And cocaine. Right. But the question I want to ask is, you know, where do you mentioned this enormous Number of families dependent on growing coca. On an individual level, I can see how, hey, if you ship me

24:30 A small box of coca leaf for my personal use. There's no way I'm going to convert that into cocaine. But how do you, on a national level, if these farms are pre-existing, decouple The good of license. Coca. While

24:47 Simultaneously constraining the evils of cocaine production. Is that possible? Well, I mean the thing there is that The status of cocaine. Has no relevance whatsoever to the cartels. With

25:01 Coca is a prohibited substance they've made fortunes shipping cocaine by the ton for fifty years in the United States. And where coca leaves to be legal with a commercial export market. You would still maintain the same controls over the illicit production of cocaine that you have today. So it's kind of irrelevant.

25:21 The critical thing is that Crop substitution programs are an illusion. Because how do you Transport to market. The cow

25:31 bananas when you can take coca paste and put it in your moochilla and walk down the trail. And so this expansion of coca production is going on dramatically. And it's having huge impacts on tropical rainforests. The deforestation since the peace agreement in Columbia is very disturbing. And yet we have millions of acres of already cut over land that we could cultivate coca on. For the well being of the

25:53 The people. And You know. I think it's Worth

25:57 Just thinking about the history of this plant eight thousand years, one of the most amazing things about cocoa. Is that it's been domesticated not once, not twice. But three separate times in human history that is unheard of. And Tim, I think in a one approach to the problem you brought up is education, which I'm a great believer in.

26:17 I think if people knew what coca was and understood its benefits, they would demand that they'd want it. And that includes even people who use cocaine. I have known A number of people who got strung out on cocaine. And

26:31 I experienced a lot of negative effects from it. And when they tried coca and used it properly They saw that it was a much more desirable state and they didn't want to use cocaine anymore. So I think that's something we could do. By the way, it should also mention that Through an accident of history, Coca is in schedule two of the controlled substances act, not schedule one, like

26:52 cannabis and psychedelics. It got there and schedule two is substances that have a high potential for abuse but have recognized therapeutic application. It's only there because cocaine has limited uses as a medical drug in ophthalmology and dentistry. But that makes it a little easier.

27:11 You know, leverage coca out of that controlled substance box. It's just a matter of demonstrating that there are therapeutic applications that the FDA could approve. Alright, so I wanna Fill in a gap.

27:24 And then come back to Problem solving. But before we get to the problem solving and policy work, I'll plant a seed which is If these farmers Suddenly could legally

27:37 Ship product. the for export or domestic use in the form of cocaine. Could they actually get around the cartel or would they be putting a bullseye on their forehead? That's a question not for now, but for later. What I'd like to talk about First is

27:52 The indigenous Cultural context In which coca is used. And its importance, right? Because As you mentioned. I mean it's not exactly ubiquitous in South America, but in a handful of countries

28:05 E coca is considered for lack of a better term, a master plant. In a sacred plant. First of all, there are four different varieties that Tim Plowman identified of cultivated cocoa. And

28:19 Two species each with two different varieties. And We now know. That From DNA analysis at the progenitor of all four varieties.

28:30 Was a wild coca called erathrop from Grassolipis that grows along the eastern flanks of the Andes. The Seo de Mon de la Montagne all the way from Venezuela down to Bolivia. And what this means is that at three times in pre Columbian history Human beings came upon this delicate little Shrub in the forest with all fruits.

28:51 The colour size of rubies and beautiful little white flowers and Delicate foliage and said. Huh. That's the one. And it was domesticated three times in the

29:03 Montagna of Colombia. In the Yungus of La Paz in Bolivia and Peru. And in the northwest Amazon. And

29:11 That is extremely rare in History And Not only was it domesticated three times

29:19 Everywhere it was domesticated, it was deemed to be The plant of all plants, the sacred plant. And that was its status through All of at least eight thousand years. And remains its status amongst those who use the plant today.

29:36 Today, you know, if you watch Indigenous people using coca. Very often they make What's called a quinta, which is an offering. They take three perfect leaves and put them together in a fan shape.

29:48 And blow on them and will whisper prayers to them. And this is very common. Well, it's more than that, Andy, when people meet on the trail they make a cruceta of leaves and then they Lift it to the highest sacred mountain, blow it. Provide context for people. Little cross of three leaves, three perfect leaves, and you've

30:08 First of all you Point it to the mountain and then you blow the energy of the leaf to the mountain. And the metaphor is the energy leaf like in the same way that a cloud condenses to bring rain and fertility to the soil. So too, this is creating your sort of Connection to landscape and

30:24 Every single thing that happens in the Andes, a field is planted, cookies. Sprinkled. Tools are brought back in the evening. Foca is given to them. Coca.

30:34 appears as a symbol of the social contract and the social nexus of people. This is why it's so important, as the anthropologist Catherine Allen said, is that To deny people coca in the Andes is not like denying the Germans beer or the British tea or the French coffee. It's actually an act of cultural genocide because you cannot be Runa Cuna. You cannot be of the Andes a Pachamama.

31:00 If you do not use the leaves and you must use them properly. And nothing causes more offense than tourists who stuffed their leaves. As the people say like horses eating hay. And In the Sierra Navarre de Santa Marta where the highest consumption of cocoa

31:16 In the world. Men are Constantly. Shoe in How you?

31:23 What is high? Hayu is the name of Coca. In Lambia, that is Eerythroth Nova Granitency. a variety in overgranatensi, which is a coca of Colombia. And the coca use today by the Mammoth of the Sierra Nevada of Santa Marta.

31:37 But they contemplate the the day to come, they contemplate the day. That they've lived. You begin to chew leaves when you And of an age to marry. And so the chewing of leaves is the expression of the essence of who you are as a people.

31:50 And that happens to be a culture that believes that their prayers literally maintain the cosmic balance of the world. And so In all these societies. The act of chewing cocoa. Is

32:01 An act of being alive and To be denied The use of coca. is to suffer a kind of existential Eradication that is complete.

32:11 No to be Fair. Indigenous people throughout The Americas. have the right to use coca in most jurisdictions.

32:20 But of course the cost of coke is skyrocketed with the illicit market. And so there are many communities where the tradition of using cocaine Is being lost simply because of the price of the leaves. But again, the issue for us, I think, in our initiative Is not just a traditional use of the leaf, but the right of all peoples in all places in the world.

32:40 plant represents. It's Latin America's greatest gift to the world and it's one that's been Denied. In a way that's been incredibly unproductive.

32:52 I guess potatoes are a pretty good gift too, right? So let me come back. I promised to do a call back to the question that I had bookmarked. Doing homework for this in conversation with you guys, also lots of text messages and so on. I mean, it seems like there are many reasons that if one could wave a magic wand to create a license of coca, it would be a a good idea. You would have dramatic impact on indigenous land rights. He would curtail deforestation because things wouldn't be pushed to the outer edges where they can be better hidden.

33:23 Certainly the sustenance and viability of these communities who are already operating. Farms, not to mention the potential global impact. If this were to be more widely available, certainly pending Or parallel with lots more research. There's a lot of good that could come. Of it.

33:41 Could these farms be converted to Legal Trade without these farmers. having a ballseye painted on their head by cartel who are dependent on them for

33:53 Producing their product. It's not as if the cartels are gonna roll over and say oh go Great. So you're T to Andy Wyl Inc.

34:02 On the other hand, the point is that the cartels are already out of control in Colombia. And doing whatever they want anyway. And they will continue to grow coca as they want to grow coke and continue to produce enormous quantities of illicit cocaine. Whether or not individuals will be free to grow cocoa with impunity, obviously there's gonna be conflict but the state hasn't

34:24 National interest. In the cultivation, illicit cultivation of coca. They'll have an interest in protecting those who are growing the cocoa. It's not gonna be some kind of smooth transition. But the point is the the situation in Colombia, for example

34:37 is already completely chaotic. The production having skyrocketed the since a peace agreement. Inaccessible. And that's really

34:47 A failure of leadership. By the federal state. I don't think that's a reason not to move forward with Creating illicit Product.

34:56 For the Farm families. Who I've been waiting for this. Andy, maybe you could speak to this next, just to rotate here. What is the

35:06 Wedge in the door. This would be a big long term undertaking. To rehabilitate coca. So what are sort of tangible next steps you think would move the needle in a positive direction? Is it funding research? Is it pilot programs of some type for legal products? What do you think? I think it's gotta be multi pronged. One is creating consumer demand for it.

35:27 you know, creating a market in North America for coca. If people want if consumers want it, that will move the needle quite a bit. Secondly There have to be FDA recognized approved uses of it.

35:40 Which they're now or not. And that has to be demonstrated, has to be supported by research. Some obvious ones are for the treatment of G. I disorders. Or treatment of Substance abuse disorders.

35:54 I think possibly for treatment of ADHD, for example, with a much safer stimulant. I think the metabolic Indications that there's great potential there that needs Some research to demonstrate that. But if this shows potential for preventing or treating type two diabetes. No, that would be enormous.

36:12 And I think there's a we can make a list of these things. So I think it's we've got to work on all these fronts, but To me, the first thing is making people aware of what coca is. You know, most people don't know anything about it. And if they do, they just think of it as the source of cocaine.

36:26 So that's where we're starting. There was a big effort and a very hopeful effort to get the UN to Reschedule Coca. And this was done at the request of both the

36:40 And The hope. as I mentioned, was that Coke would be taken out of schedule. And he mentioned this Coke is in schedule two in the United States, but by the international Statutes of the UN is still schedule one. And the goal was to try to get it.

36:55 Completely Descheduled as a benign plant that it is. The group that met in Vienna. decided against that and To maintain the status quo to the disappointment of all advocates.

37:06 And the rationale was a little strange. The reason that Coca remained The equipment of Fenton Al. Is that cocaine could be extracted from cocoa? Everybody knows that. And

37:17 The fact that nothing stopped the cartels extracting cocaine. By the time. So it it made no sense that logic. But because of that Coca remains scheduled. That was a big disappointment, but that effort Continues.

37:31 But we are seeing movement in the US with you know, there's been movement with cannabis, there's been movement with psychedelics. A lot of this has been I think promoted by veterans demanding access to these treatments for You know, mental health conditions.

37:46 But things finally have loosened up and maybe As part of that momentum we can introduce Discussions of coca. And getting some movement there as well. I think it's possible.

37:58 sort of pragmatic hat is always wondering Well if we have Many, many, many people listening to this podcast, they're probably policymakers. There are individuals certainly who say to themselves, Hey, I would love to cut down on my coffee, maybe give cocoa spin. Sounds mild. Maybe doing a few days of that would be wonderful, but I don't know what then their next step is or how the demand or interest Is harnessed in a way.

38:23 that leads to Broader change. Do you have any thoughts on Getting specific stakeholders to Take any next steps. Chances are you have

38:34 People from every possible walk listening to this. You likely have scientists. Who are perhaps psychedelic adjacent, maybe they are stimulant adjacent who are interested. Course is the fundraising question, but that's solvable, I think. I would be willing to help fund some research. What else can be done?

38:54 Well, to the scientists, I would say No, this is an incredibly interesting plant. with a fascinating history, cultural relevance. Chemistry. Pharmacological effects.

39:06 And it hasn't been studied. You know, it's just waiting there. This would be a rich subject for Investigation. So I would think that people scientists who are curious About things of this sort, medicinal plants. Medical botany, natural Products.

39:21 Would want to take a look at this. I'll just say because it's schedule two versus schedule one, it makes the Presumably the process for researching it much easier and much less expensive. But I would say Tim to the entrepreneurs who might be listening that the person who manages to crack this nut. has the potential to make enormous

39:41 Wealth Because I think the qualities of coca are such that they could Very easily. Compete. On the level that coffee is presented to the world. It's just a much, much better natural stimulant.

39:53 A more effective one, a more benign one. A more useful one. So when the dam breaks it will be enormous. And again You have issues of intellectual property, but This is a plant that's been used

40:05 for eight thousand years by everybody, it's very difficult for anyone to claim the r intellectual rights to this plant, and as uh some good friends of mine saying in this case The plant itself has agency, you know, and the plant Wants to be known to people. And the other element of this is storytelling. I mean Andy and I are in in the midst of um raising funds to make a film

40:28 That will celebrate in a positive sense Coca and the whole tradition. And It's a story of social justice, it's a story of spiritual illumination, it's a story of Prehistory. Incredible story of cultural

40:42 Celebration, ethnographic richness. And I think if people Embraced. the story, they would be deeply moved. А та сам існиble вийш.

40:54 Of human rights. And the egregious way by which this plant Has been demonized. Speaks to larger issues that we face uh as we try to find a way to live on this planet.

41:07 So I think it the story is so rich. And Wade and I have been involved in an effort to rehabilitate coca for some time. In the nineteen seventies I started a not for profit foundation called the Beneficial Plant Research Association. Whose aim was to

41:25 Conduct research, make people aware of Lesser known medicinal plants, and the main one we focused on was coca. We were way ahead of our time, but we had wonderful people involved in this effort. And the group laps, but I revived it a couple of years ago and it's now very robust. We have some really great Scientists behind it.

41:45 I would urge listeners to check our website, which is DPRA.org. And read about the Coca project. And then what we are involved with. B P R A dot org, is that right? Yeah. If people were interested in potentially supporting the film, is that where they should go to contact folks?

42:03 Yes. Okay. All right. So that's one that people can latch on to now, Wade, you were Delivering a A summons, a call to action to entrepreneurs, as luck would have it. We may have an entrepreneur in our midst.

42:17 Known for True Food Kitchen. Not only Machakari. So Andrew, if you were going to market and you're like, you know what, let me pave the way. I'm not saying that's your plan, but If you decided I want to Coca. Coca Cari. You could come up with I'm sure that you could do a line extension. Uh fantastic matcha for people who are interested.

42:38 By the way, matcha and coca are both green powders. So I'm an advocate of green powders and uh Macha has just when I this is another one that I got interested in way before its time. And I tried for a number of years to introduce it here unsuccessfully. And now it has become, I mean, it is just unbelievable. It's the worldwide demand for it has completely stressed Japan's capacity to produce it. So you know that took

43:04 Maybe Fifteen, twenty years for me to get that going. Coke is probably gonna take a little longer, but I am determined. All right, so what would be the levers. Or perhaps dominoes is a better metaphor that you would want to tip over on the path to introducing Coca as a commercial product.

43:23 Even just one good study. clearly demonstrating one of these effects that we've talked about. Of helping people get off. Much more dangerous stimulants. Or regulating carbohydrate metabolism, helping to prevent type two diabetes.

43:38 Wade, what do you think? Focusing on it. And what Andy and I know from our personal experiences is how Fantastic. Coke is how it works.

43:48 I think all of us, Tim, as conscious human beings. suffer from these kind of afflictions that the Buddhas talk about. You know, this little the monkey mind, this sort of little Moments of neuroses or even depression. Lucky moments. Thank God. I would pay to have moments. And you know, I know I'm I'd I'll say something very personal. I mean, I have two daughters and they've both of them for different reasons have been on Some of these serotonin uptake inhibitors, you know, Prozac and uh Never riddle in, but you know, I've watched that and

44:19 What I experienced in my life Which is a very productive life. Is that I function perfectly well without Coke. Just like old Schultes used to say. He'd shoot Coke every day in the Amazon. He didn't shoot it in Boston. I find that if I Run out of coca, my life goes on. It's just not as nice a life and it's not as productive a life.

44:37 But what I find is that I'm as susceptible as anybody. To mood swings to Existential despair, whatever we call it. I I think this is part of the human condition. It it's In the same way the death is the price we pay for the glory of being alive, I think

44:52 Some of these little mental fuck ups are what we pay for for the price of being conscious. Ticket of entry, yeah. And that's the whole thing about coca is that it takes care that without having any sense that you've been drugged or even stimulated, you just find that stuff flit in your way. And it just makes for a more productive life. I've written twenty four books, Tim, and I made fifty films and people oh he's so productive and I just smile like the shesher cat. Of course I am, and Eddie knows exactly how and why.

45:22 I think probably Andy and I both share a certain frustration. That you can't Talk people in into this sort of show don't tell. And it's so subtle. I remember the first time I ever really got behind coca was in Paramo above C Bandoi, um in Colombia.

45:38 And Tim and I'd gotten a bunch of leaves in Sylvia. And Tim was never one to rush a situation that was itself inherently pleasant. And so we just laid back in the sun and You know, I had been with the mom of them. But I hadn't really discovered the plan. I mean Andy will tell you, you have to

45:55 You create a learned experience with these plants. And suddenly I just felt like I was just where I wanted to be. And that's what Andy says. When Andy And I've quoted him many times. First one to the Cabello.

46:09 In it was seventy three, wasn't it, Andy? Yes. And there's a beautiful passage in one of Andy's essays. Where he Exposed to Mambe for the first time. Mambe, by the way, for the audience is just an Amazonine form of Coca It becomes a green powder like matcha.

46:24 And you don't Use it with an admixture. The ad mixture is the ashes placed in the preparation, so you end up swallowing the whole The whole thing is you absorb the nutrients and so on. But anyway, so Andy had been exposed to Mon Bay. And the next day with the men they gather around his Calabash and he You know, he walks away as I walked away in the Northwest Amazon.

46:45 With a spring to your feet, oblivious to the humidity. As Andy said in that wonderful passage, swinging my ham my machete And feeling that I was just where I wanted to be. And I think that's a really great summation. Of the subjective effects of Coco.

47:03 And can I say I attribute some of at least some of my well being to regular use of coca. By the way, today is my birthday and I'm eighty four. And uh I feel pretty good.

47:17 Yeah, you look great. Yeah, people always comment on how good I look and so forth. And I I have to say Coca has contributed to that. All right, I have many more questions. But I'll try to Contain I could probably use some more coca to get this. A D H D O C D and under control, but Are there for people who

47:36 Have heard And maybe latched on to something you said earlier, which is one good scientific study. Right. I'm a firm believer in this because I've been uh very active on trying to establish First. pilots that might be a proof of concept that then catalyze more research, et cetera.

47:53 Are there any particular researchers? Who people could look to fund. Let me mention one who was on our board of beneficial plants and that's Chris McCurdy. Who is a Medicinal pharmacologist.

48:08 How do you spell the last name? M C capital C U R D Y Christopher. Um He's University of Florida. He is the main person who's researched Kraton.

48:20 And has a lot of federal support for his studies of Kratom. And I met with him and got him interested in coca. And he was determined to you know do a study that's now I will just tell you it has been a very torturous route for him to get leaves. legally to study, but he finally just this week Got his supply. I mean you would not believe the red tape.

48:40 Why is it so hard? Because this is the problem with coca, you know, that it's just all these regulations and fear about it and Infusion with cocaine anyway, he's a very interesting person to talk to. But he has set up he's just about to get going. He's

48:55 Doing animal research first. But is going to Check. He's using whole coca. Trying to disentangle the effects of the different alkaloids. But one of his interests is

49:05 looking at this possibility of regulating carbohydrate metabolism. He's the main person at the moment that I know who is doing research in this area and he's very good. Yeah, I was wondering I looked him up while we were talking. Might not be a fit, might be a fit, but Doctor Peter Hendricks has done some interesting work

49:25 Mostly looking at Well, I shouldn't say mostly, but perhaps best known um for looking at the potential use of psilocybin. combined with psychotherapy as a promising treatment for cocaine use disorder. So there might be room for looking at as strange as it might sound to people. Coca. For

49:40 Cocaine. Use disorder. That might be too hard to sell. I proposed that in an article that I wrote long ago saying that this would be one of the possible uses. To wing wean people off of cocaine onto coca. That would be a big step up. You know, I had not even thought about and

49:59 I feel foolish. Realize that even if it's schedule two. If you are, say, using methylfenidate, aka eritalin or something else, You just synthesize the damn stuff. Whereas If you have to get actual organic

50:14 Coca leaves, that adds a whole different layer of headache. In terms of procuring it. Right, because now you're dealing with importation and this, that and the other thing. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that wrinkle. There's always a wrinkle. Okay. And for someone like Christopher

50:29 McCurdy. How much do Research studies. like this cost. Do you have any ballpark for folks? In my experience, it's like okay, the number of subjects determines a lot of the cost. So if you want to power the study, if you want to try to get a properly powered study, maybe you want to increase the scope for more people to participate.

50:48 Et cetera. But Do you have any idea? And I I know you're not speaking for him, but Do you have any idea what something like that might cost? More than you would think. So you know that is a challenge. But you know, Chris has found that the federal government that and national suits on drug abuse is willing to fund these studies. So that's very promising. Yeah.

51:10 I had Nora Volkov of Night on the podcast a couple of years ago, and uh it was a really good conversation, and she was in the public might have to scratch it, but she was in the Oval Office. For the executive order. uh related to psychedelics. And I was like, man, that's awesome. And She's so brilliant, so I don't know what her current status is within Nida. She might still be running it.

51:34 But there seems to be a sea change afoot so the timing Could be very Serendipitous to try to kick something off. Now, particularly on the research front. For people who might be wondering, I'll just throw out some numbers. I mean early on, this is two thousand fifteen helping

51:50 To fund. Some of the initial psilocybin studies looking at Depression at Hopkins. I mean for fifty K you could make a huge, huge, huge Difference. Really, that's great. It's not necessarily millions of people. It depends on

52:06 Again. The size, the ambition. And you don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish, right? If you can fund more And you want to drive the possibility for a statistically meaningful outcome that is suitable for publishing and defensible, then maybe you write a bigger check.

52:23 Especially if you're gonna wait all that time'cause science is pretty scared. Regulations in Canada are a little more favorable than they are in the US and there's some research interests up there. There's nothing really definitive. I mean, I think one opening in the States could be Bobby Kennedy. I've been with Bobby.

52:42 Few people know, but when his father was killed was sent by the family to Columbia and he Fell in love with Columbia. And I've been in Columbia with Bobby with the Mammals chewing cocoa. He totally understands the plant and he certainly understands the distinction between coca. And the alkaloid cocaine.

52:58 So I think there's an opening there. Which could be very promising. And one area that I very much agree with him on is his Initiative to Change psychiatry and move it away from uh, you know, the biomedical model, which I think has been really failed us.

53:16 I mean I think this whole coca story you slam up against the whole failure of the war on drugs and the ideology of the war on drugs. There's a very Funny account where in October, end of October twenty twenty. There's his bust at

53:31 The Philadelphia International Airport. of fifteen pounds of what was called green cocaine and the Customs agents sort of heralded this great Sign of the vigilance of their Colleagues and so on.

53:45 And Anyone who knew anything about anything could see that that green cocaine was Mambay. And also in the bus was a brown paste, which everybody knew would have been a tobacco paste. Now tobacco kills four hundred thousand people every year. But it's legal, so this was not of concern to the Agents, but the green cocaine was.

54:05 And they analyzed it and Discovered it had some cocaine in it. trivial amount so that if anybody tried to just snort the mamba, they just sort of plug their nose most unpleasantly. With a powder the consistency of talcum powder. But the thing that was so disturbing.

54:20 About the bust. Is Then after Sixty years of one war on drugs. You had customs agents who still didn't know the difference between Coca

54:30 And cocaine. After s expanding A trillion dollars on this failed campaign. And that was really the equivalent, if you think about it, of Elliott Nest busting a truckload of potatoes in violation of the the Bolstead Act. Coca is to cocaine, what potatoes are to vodka.

54:48 That's a good comparison. I like that. Or a peach. You know, we we don't Deny us the right to enjoy the luscious fruit of a peach. Because of the carioactive glycosides found within the pit of eat peach, right? Not to kinda push the metaphor, but they're truly apples and oranges.

55:05 When you combine that kind of in the moment idiocy Together with the really pernicious history by which this plant has been Demonized. I mean Andy said earlier that these countries remain countries of conquered and conqueror. And in this era where we're so sensitive to Language.

55:23 If people were aware of the language and I wrote a long piece for Rolling Stone called The Secret History of Coca. The language being used by those who crafted the very documents that we live by to this day. Is so hideous that It would

55:39 Cause Anybody to be Immediately dismissed. For many position in Mm.

55:46 Country today. Language. Accusing coqui users of being I mean you you can't until they make this stuff up. And it was all driven.

55:55 By the same guy and Slinger who gave us Reefer Madness. And so we're still living by that mindset. Which has been utterly exposed as a racist and colonial conceit that it was. I also I think the Coca.

56:10 Is the most perfect example of how we've gone wrong in our relations with the natural world. You know, really failing to see That plant for what it is. Confusing it with this one component of it.

56:24 And then getting ourselves in enormous amounts of trouble and In my career as a physician, I have Work for years and years to help People understand the differences between whole plants. Natural products.

56:37 and isolated compounds. I mean, I think isolated compounds have their place in medicine. But very often I see that these Complex, natural mixtures. Work better or much safer. Often have effects that we don't have.

56:51 But pure compounds that work for Coke is a perfect example of that. And Andy, when you say the you know, relation to the natural world in a social sense it's expressed in Puru as well. I mean one of the great rituals I've participated in is called the movimiento, it's out of Cusco where Once each year the fastest young boy in every Hamlet is given the gift of becoming a woman. And he has to lead all able bodied men on this ritual run, but it's not your ordinary run. You start off at eleven thousand five hundred feet.

57:17 Run down to the base of s the sacred mountain and Tekilka. Nine thousand feet, then you run to over sixteen thousand feet. And you fall over two soaring Indian ridges. Over the course of this twenty four hour Race, it's less a race than a ritual of ordeal.

57:32 And the idea is that as you Enter this race. Through pure exhaustion, you make the sacrifice that makes it sacred as And I

57:42 did that race at the age of forty eight, the oldest man ever to do it and the only outsider to do it. And I only got through that race by shoeing more cocaine one day than anyone in the eight thousand year history of But the point is what Andy's saying about our relationship with the natural world, what that race is really about is expressing a sense of obligation and belonging. You're running the Perimeter of the land.

58:05 Your sacred mounds of earth eat those. Where the Wilaka must spin to bring the energy of the woman to the mountaintop. Where coke is given to Bachamama. And so The race becomes a ritual of belonging.

58:17 You're demonstrating your ownership. But also your obligation. So you see Coke in that sense is It's powerful and

58:27 Adjunct to culture. As ayahuasca might be amongst the peoples of the Anaconda. You know, you can't do that run without Coca, Tim. Coke is the mediator. You know, they they often say that the first to taste the leaves was huntissima maria.

58:43 In the kind of syncretic Myth of origins. When she lost the Christ child. And her grief she sample the leaf and that gave her the spirit to continue.

58:53 Well, obviously that's a syncretic fusion of Reclaming and Catholic ideas, but that's An indicator of its centrality. in the stream of existence in the Andes.

59:04 So just uh Personal question of you guys. Which I'm sure Has occurred to a lot of listeners or viewers and that is like why do you care so much about this in the hierarchy of reasons? Like what's at the top?

59:17 What is it for you, Andy? For me it is the confusion of a plant with an element of it, which is a problem that I see in medicine. Rightly that we just fail to understand those differences and I would like to help educate more people about that.

59:32 And as I said, I think Coca is a Most perfect example. of how we've gone wrong in our relationship with a plant. And also just Two

59:42 I suppose underscore one thing. is not what you're saying. You were not saying that all plants are therefore safe, right? That whole plants are therefore like you don't want to go out and start chugging a bunch of hemlock tea. No there's plenty of stuff However. Peace. Versus whole.

59:58 Component versus That's a big entire plant are different. By the way, you know, I think in our Society particularly, I think. There is great fear of nature. And we tend to see nature as hostile.

1:00:10 And many people I know think if you just go out and randomly munch Plants. in your backyard you'll likely die. Now the percentage of plants that can seriously harm you is pretty small. I mean, there aren't many hemlocks out there.

1:00:23 There's a lot of things that you know don't basically there's a lot of things that might give you an upset stomach. But there's not a lot of things that can kill you or close to you as home. I once had dinner with the Chief technical advisor to one of the big European

1:00:38 Supplement companies. He was Austrian. He had traveled all over the world and he said The one thing that struck him was the extreme fear of nature in the English speaking world. I mean I never heard Anyone say that? But he said this is an attitude that he found very common in the UK and Canada and Australia and the US, New Zealand.

1:00:56 And he said very different to what you see, for example, in German speaking Europe. Where people tend to regard nature as friendly. Benign, helpful. You know, in Germany Culture.

1:01:07 There's great Use of medicinal plants and natural forms. No very different from what we have here. So that's just an interesting perspective. I'd never noticed that. Where do you think that comes from? Any ideas? I wonder. Wait, any any suggestions. You certainly see it amongst, you know, fungophobes, as you always talk about, Andy, you know, the the fear of mushrooms.

1:01:27 But Kim, back to your question, you know, for me I revere coca because of what it's done for my life. But also it symbolises for me Everything I care about. in terms of culture as an anthropologist and everything I've ever fought for in terms of the the rights of indigenous people.

1:01:43 And it's To me, one of the most egregious violations. Oh. The rights of Other cultures.

1:01:50 And it's also a denial of the genius of other cultures. So it sort of symbolizes for me everything that I've stood up against. in my career and it happens to be a plant that has brought Benefits to me. Enormous benefits. But I'll give you if I could share one anecdote that shows how creative is is that I don't know if you remember, but some years ago Peru qualified for the first time in ten years for the World Cup.

1:02:14 And I saw the victory match on a Screen and Cusco was played in Lima. And then the captain of the Peruvian team who played for a squad in So Paulo And a random drug test was shown to have

1:02:27 Metabolites of cocaine and his Urine. And he was gonna be kicked off the team and this was gonna make a huge international scandal. And his lawyer called me from Sao Paulo. And uh I said, Well wait a minute, doesn't he come from Lima?

1:02:42 Yeah. Well, they just went through Christmas. Didn't he go to Iacucho or Cusco? Yeah. Oh, he must have stayed at the Monasterio Hotel in Cusco'cause that's the nicest hotel. Yeah, that's where he stayed.

1:02:55 Huge vats of coca tea. Available at all times for its clientele. For altitude sickness, and that's what he had done. Coca tea.

1:03:06 And because of the idiocy of our understanding of the difference between the plant And the drug. This could have been an international Incident because you well know That Peruvians, like all Latin Americans, take their football very seriously.

1:03:20 But we got'em off. Yeah, very seriously. Andy, it looked like you were gonna say something. Do you have anything to add to that? Nope, I think we you know, we for For different reasons, we come from different places.

1:03:33 We both are very passionate about this issue. Cook is always Seem to be defined. As it what it is not. It's not cocaine. And

1:03:43 Gloria. I mean it's it's interesting you know I mean Andy's a real plant guy. He's a real Ethnobotanist, a real physician who's always had plants in his practice. And I went through a period of time where I was very much a Technical explorer, but I'm fundamentally a storyteller, a writer, a anthropologist.

1:04:03 But this plant wrapped its arms around me when I was nineteen years old and has never let me go. And I have a kind of deep Fidelity, it's hard to explain. I don't normally speak in this kind of language. But This plant has given me so much.

1:04:19 And as has allowed me to explore And have such extraordinary experiences in the field in pursuit of its mysteries. And it's wonder. That I feel

1:04:30 That Liberating Coca is the final Act of my professional life. I feel well very sincerely. And it also brings me back to Andy because Andy was like always my big brother.

1:04:42 Andy and Tim Pluman, who were great friends, both acolytes of Schulte's And for me, I was able to come along as their kind of kid brother. So the relationship with Andy to me is enormously important emotionally. Spiritually even. And if Andy and I in the memory of Tim.

1:04:59 Who tragically died way too young at the age of forty five, the great botanical authority. On coca. He died of AIDS. And incidentally it was as I was reading and doing his eulogy that I conceived the book One River, which is a biography. Of our great professor Richard M Schultees. We're doing this in part in memory of Tim, I'm sure Andy would agree.

1:05:20 We've covered a lot of ground. What I'm gonna do also to try to consolidate next steps for people for anyone listening or watching is I'll create Tim.blog slash Coca. So on my website that'll lead to this Episode. And at the very top of the show notes. We'll have a link.

1:05:37 Two The BPRA.org will have a link to some of the researchers. Or mentioned, including any others that you guys might think of after the fact. A link to some of the pieces that Andy and I have written would be really big.

1:05:53 We'll put a bunch of stuff at the top. with a bias for people who are listening. If they're like, this is all great. I don't wanna be purely a passive consumer of education or edutainment, like I actually want to put a dent in the world, then we'll have that at the top because I don't want to bury that stuff in terms of possible next actions for people. Folks, that'll be at Tim Dotlog slash Coca C O C A, just like Coca-Cola. Not a coincidence, by the way.

1:06:18 Yeah, I'll I'll read you. This is a piece on Eater people can look it up. Maybe I'll link to it actually. An unassuming set of buildings in Baywood, New Jersey, less than ten miles from Manhattan, holds a surprising secret. It's what might be arguably called the cocaine capital of the United States. Here a chemical company manufactures cocaine legally with a special permission from the US government, all in service of a familiar company, Coca-Cola. Cola By the way, just for people who like little bits of Trivia. Comes from Cola Keo LA. Well.

1:06:46 In English at least. African nut known for its caffeine content. And by the way, Tim, Coca Cola notoriously had a secret Coca Plantation. In Hawaii. No kidding.

1:06:57 Scoundrels. Look at that. And you know, that is the only legal export of coca from Peru is to that chemical company, Stephen Chemical in Maywood, New Jersey. And the cocaine is extracted and sold for pharmaceutical use. And the rest of the leaves are made into an extract, which is a secret flavoring ingredient in Coca Cola. And what's more in the in the nineteen sixty one UN Convention on Narcotic Drugs There is one specific Exclusion.

1:07:26 Of coca. Solely for that company. And I got to go in Peru. To where they were getting their leaves from. And they were trashy leaves. I mean it was literally the sweepings of war stuff that Wade and I would not shoot.

1:07:41 Drinking sawdust. Yeah. Botanical sawdust. Well, another bit of Trivia for folks if they care. Seven up used to contain lithium citrus. Oh yes, right, right back in the day. Yeah. You know, those old soda companies had some stuff figured out. Well, gentlemen, is there anything else Before we start to wind to a close that you would like to add. Certainly I would love you guys to mention where people can find you online if you'd like them to go in any particular direction.

1:08:11 And anything else that you would like to add? Andy? My uh website is uh drwil dot com, drw dot com. There's a lot of health information there. And I am the founder of the Andrew Weill University of Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine. We train physicians and health professionals on that.

1:08:31 Website is A W C I M Uh org. And I'm very proud of our work there. We've graduated almost three thousand physicians. of Allied health professionals from our very intensive trainings, which include really good instruction on botanical medicine.

1:08:49 I love it. And people can also find you on Instagram, X, etcetera, at Doctorw. And presumably you don't have uh I'm sure there's nice Good publishing of valuable content coming out there, so people can check that out. And then Wade I just wanted to say, Tim, if I could just insert this in case you could use it. Is it a I've made A lot of reference to the egregious language by those who

1:09:14 Responsible for the language of the of the UN declaration. But maybe I could just read the the key figure was an acloid of And Slinger, who was sort of the n notorious anti drug warrior that we Almost joke about with Ray for Madness. But

1:09:29 This man name was Pablo Hosfall the wolf. He was the chief of the addiction producing drug section. Of the World Health Organization.

1:09:39 He not only conceived, he wrote the language. Of course. Demonization. In that. But listen to what he says.

1:09:49 Lecture to the Roy Society of Medicine in London. On the very eve of that commission led by Fonda. Going to Peru. The India who does not shoot coca leaves is clear sighted, intelligent, and light hearted, willing to work Vigorous.

1:10:05 And resistant to diseases. The cocoero, on the contrary, Is apathetic. Lazy. Insensitive to his environment.

1:10:13 His mind is befogged. Emotional reactions are rare and violent. He is morally and intellectually anesthesized. Socially subdued. Almost slave.

1:10:24 Moral degeneration accompanies the physical. Line is one of the outstanding characteristics. Probably due to a lack of moral equilibrium. Criminality is high. And barbaric forms of homicide.

1:10:37 Can only be explained. By a certain moral insensibility. We are convinced that coca leaf chewing is a social evil. The chronic consumption of these leaves constitutes a Social poison

1:10:50 Which undermines the physical and mental health of the population. The children of Coqueros are markedly deficient in intelligence. There is no doubt that the habit of chewing coke leaves is І вони мост повар фул різ.

1:11:06 The last link. In a chain of social and medical social scourges. Which include Pauperism.

1:11:16 Bad housing conditions. Deficient nutrition. rudimentary or completely absent education Alcoholism, tuberculosis, venereal disease. And other infections and promiscuity.

1:11:29 Calamities and miseries. I never heard that way. I never This is quoted in my Rolling Stone piece, Andy. You just can't believe the language.

1:11:43 The remedy of the moment is gradual disintoxication of the native. Diminishing the production as well as the consumption of coca by means of a suitable education. By abolishing the superstition of the magic action And the well being of the leaves. By prohibiting initiation of young

1:12:00 You know, goes on and on. Only with skill and patience can coca addiction be abolished. But it can be done. Christianized Indians no longer live in the former wretched conditions. And thus show themselves physically and mentally

1:12:14 Capable of freeing themselves. From cocoa. Leave. Chewing. An addiction.

1:12:20 And you have to think. This is the man. Who wrote the statute. That we Turn to today.

1:12:27 In the nineteen sixty one UN Convention on Narcotic Drugs. This is the language that the UM World Health Organization. Has recently

1:12:38 Affirmed. by refusing to de schedule or reschedule Coca Might be time for an update. It's that bad.

1:12:46 Can you think of any other Policy that we would live by today. It's like policies have been written by I don't know, Herman Gorin or Google. Dictating.

1:12:58 You know, religious policies today. In the United States of America. And yet this is what we are trying to deal with and confront and it is so dark and so evil. Well it sounds like

1:13:09 A terrible. B Time for an update. C, I'm sure a lot of the people who are adjacently or indirectly affirming this have no idea what it actually says, right? They have not Read what you just read aloud. So

1:13:25 Worth another look, like a lot of things. And Not saying it's a panacea. Not saying. That There shouldn't be.

1:13:33 Guide rails. Or guardrails. But that it's worth another look. I do think The wedge in the door to pull from language earlier probably is a awareness Of

1:13:46 The benefits and I think. You guys do a pretty Damn fine job of Showcasing the longitudinal productivity gains.

1:13:54 Of moderate sustained use and separately. Getting some science funded. And I think those are parallel tracks. And the film itself being used as an educational tool. Two support.

1:14:10 The I would say both of those. the latter and the scientific exploration. Because it strikes me, I mean, look, I'm not a doctor, I don't play one on the internet, nor am I a scientist, but I I like to It's like I I think about Some of the effects of coca and the appetite suppression, but the physical vigor In the absence of food and I wonder, Man, I would love to just take

1:14:34 Blood ketone measurements of these people. Simple stuff. So simple. So so so straightforward. Guys, this has been Wonderful. Any last closing comments, concerns, complaints? Thank you for

1:14:47 Providing a forum to talk about this. I would like to add, Andy, just uh one I'm commenting on what Tim just said. And what you responded. How easy these experiments could have been done.

1:14:58 And I think we have to remember that It's not an accident. They weren't done. In other words, the nutritional study that you and Tim did in nineteen seventies Could've been done in the nineteen twenties. It wasn't done.

1:15:10 Because people did not want Anything that would affirm the possibility that that the plant was anything but the demonic entity that they claimed it to be. So it's important in all of this to remember this wasn't just sort of an accident of history. Or a casual neglect. This was a conscious attempt to demonise And eradicate.

1:15:30 A plant and not for for ecological reasons, not for medical reasons, not for social reasons. For cultural and political reasons of power. Yeah. I wouldn't want to By association. make policy makers feel like they need to carry the burden of

1:15:49 What was truly a travesty. If they are. In part. those whose help we would like. But understanding the history is important. I mean we'll link to The Rolling Stone piece and also, Andy, anything else that you would like.

1:16:03 Linked. for people who want to check it out at Tim.blog slash Coca. I mean Coca has been of incredible interest to me for decades now. It is of such cultural importance. It is of ecological importance. economic importance, if you care about conservation, if you care about indigenous land rights, if you care about health and performance.

1:16:27 Period. Let's say you don't give a damn about what happens in South America, but you just Pounded dog shit after three cups of coffee, and then I can't sleep at night, and then I'm dependent and I have a headache when I try to stop. It's worth

1:16:40 Digging a little deeper and educating yourself. on coca. May not be available tomorrow, may not be available next year, but it is deeply, deeply Interesting. And endlessly fascinating as a possible subject of Or focus of experiments. So

1:16:57 I will leave it at that for now. We can always and I'm sure we'll be chatting more via text. But thank you guys very much. Oh, and I would be remiss if I didn't remind you. Wade that People can find you.

1:17:10 Uh DavisWade.com, is that right? That's my website. That's the main place. Anywhere else you would like to point people. We got Wade Davis Official on Instagram, X author Wade Davis. I think people would be intrigued by the book one River, which is really the account of Tim and I and Coca. And Sultis. It's a great book. It is a great book.

1:17:31 Yeah, perfect. All right, check out one river, folks. Again, we're grateful for your support very much so. It make a big difference. Yeah, thanks so much to my pleasure. Very grateful. Yeah. I love

1:17:43 This is important stuff. And it's also While I have this before AI gobbles every podcast, I would like to Surface subjects that are of importance that have not yet been reputationally de risked. I don't have to report to any

1:18:01 corporate overlord who can fire me or throttle my sponsors or whatever it might be. So I have the Incredible accidental luxury of being able to and joy of being able to have these conversations with folks like the two of you who are bringing in decades of expertise and research. So

1:18:22 Always appreciate the time. Always nice to see you both. And for people listening, as always, show notes, check it out. Tim.blog slash coca C O C A will Go straight to this episode and give you more information on where you can learn more. And until next time, be just a bit kinder than is necessary.

1:18:42 To others and to yourself. Compassion. Oh yeah, that applies to yourself too. Don't forget that. And as always. Thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again, just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading. albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends including a lot of podcasts.

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