Jens Grede - Building SKIMS - [Invest Like the Best, EP.431]

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1:29 My guest today is Jens Creed. Jens is the co-founder and CEO of Skimps, the shapeware and clothing brand he co-founded with his wife Emma and Kim Kardashian. Our conversation left my head spinning. This was one of my favorite conversations in years. Jens has this remarkable ability to be both creative and commercial. He puts brilliant frameworks into plain terms and knows consumers like the back of his hand.

1:51 Jens explains how pop culture is the only remaining hack to the consumer economy in our fragmented media landscape. And describes today's cultural shift as clamoring for comfort in uncertain times. We discussed individual voices, trumping institutions. Moving at the speed of culture rather than corporate planning cycles, and why big brands will increasingly win. Please enjoy this absolutely awesome discussion with Jens.

2:13 I have to start with the name of your holding company, which is popular culture, which I think is the coolest name for a holding company I've encountered. And demands the opening question. What trends in popular culture do you think Are the most interesting today.

2:29 Well, first of all, thank you. I have always wanted to have a really cool name. Mission accomplished. And you're probably the first person who's commented on it, so Fifteen years later I finally got that recognition I was looking for. So I appreciate it. You got it.

2:47 I need my company popular culture because I'm real child of the NT's. Pop culture. Growing up in Sweden

2:56 You part to grew up in Minnesota, so You know the feeling what it's like in January to ride your bikes to your friend's house and I would ride my bike to my friend's house to watch Beverly Hills Line at two one oh and Bay Watson. We would sit there and

3:10 It ships. Could you imagine yourself living like that? Could you imagine yourself being at the peach pit, but I was a real child of the nineties. Pop culture en skateboard scene music. I've always been obsessed with it.

3:25 As I got older. А вот цер. has been the ability to Work in the intersection of Pop culture.

3:37 And commerce. First From my first chapter on behalf of my clients and later on in life as an entrepreneur. And as an investor Ага белівда попкальчу.

3:49 Today is Really the only hack to the consumer economy. That we have For me that was

3:57 The obvious name because that's what I do. Does that mean the means through which to reach them? Build something for them and Make sure that they know about it. Really hard to reach a critical mass of consumers today.

4:12 If someone gave you and meet it. A billion dollars. To start a vodka company. We can call it winter warmth. And we spent that on TV and billboards and on Meta.

4:24 We wouldn't have Half. The brand recognition. that Dwayne the Rock Johnson have. For his tequila company Teramona.

4:34 You tell me what's the value of Dwayne Johnson? It's a billion dollars, or is it five? It's really the only way today that you can reach a critical mass of US consumers. Not just building awareness. But Билдингі сенсо

4:50 knowing what the company stands for. And what the brand's trying to do. It's for personality and it is for culture. А на фінк тудей. as

5:01 We have lived through the fragmentation of media. My social media feed looks entirely different from yours and entirely different from my wife's. We are consuming different news from each other. And often very different opinions. From one another.

5:17 If I'm into fly fishing I can live in a fly fishing world where fly fishing is the most important thing in the world. I can watch fly fishing shows and Engage with other fly fishermen. I truly believe that fly fishing runs the universe. The only two things that cuts across

5:34 Really is Pop culture and sport, and I put sport in the culture. Bracket. Sport and culture is the only two things that generally tend to cross

5:46 All those boundaries in society today. being political, racial, religious boundaries that society has drawn up, and I think in many cases The algorithms have Strengthened.

6:01 Can you talk about the difference between the role of individuals versus institutions today versus, say, the nineties, when you developed your interest in pop culture, it seems like That change has been seismic and really important for businesses. I don't know if the consumer makes

6:17 As much of a distinction today. As we used to. When we gr A singer was a singer, an actor was an actor. A brand was a brand.

6:28 Soda maker was a soda maker. A clothing company was the clothing company. Brands and individuals had very little agency to move past The box the consumer had.

6:42 But the minor that they had themselves worked within. There was just very little room. I think we made a high distinction between a corporation and an individual. My senses

6:54 If you ask a twenty year old today They make Very few of those distinctions. Not only can you be A

7:04 Wrestler who becomes the world's biggest movie star. And А феномен Ал антропренер. The lines between these disciplines They have been entirely blurred out.

7:17 Ryan Reynolds is a movie star, is also the founder of uh Mobile phone network. I don't think that would have been the case twenty years ago or even ten. The consumer don't really mind. In fact

7:29 I think in a world Where We have distrust genera for authority. And where truth is somewhat debatable. The importance of an individual, the voice of an individual.

7:43 Has probably never been Fire. I think we sied. From the business I'm in. All the way to the Oval Office.

7:52 Having a Strong voice in culture. Today translates into a strong voice in consumer, but also a strong voice in politics. I wanna stick with culture for a moment. And ask what you think drives

8:04 the major changes. You and I've talked before about the change from hip hop to country as like a big theme of changing culture. in the US and around the world. What is behind

8:15 Changes like that. Is it people that drive it? Is it confluence of forces? What is the input data that you watch? to figure out how things are changing and why. Everything. We have around us it's a reaction.

8:28 And a counter reaction. I don't think that just goes for music. I think the Current Political climate.

8:36 It's A clear counter reaction to the previous Four years. That was the reaction to the previous four years.

8:44 I think the same thing is true for Pop culture. What I'm s Quite interestingly Where

8:53 Pop culture used to be more contrarian to the establishnet. The nineties was about being contrarian to the establishment. It wouldn't matter if it is Nirvana. or public enemy. The establishment was

9:07 Somewhat the enemy of the young. We live in a time where I see pop culture moving more in lockstep. with the establishment

9:18 And say Where they Wind is blowing. Dare I say politically, but just in terms of What to be put first.

9:27 In a world today that Most people really consider quiet. Threatening? Scary.

9:35 Uncertain. I just watched a movie Mountainhead. I heard about it. I haven't watched it yet. It's worth a watch.

9:42 It's a good satire. It's clear you spent some time. With the Stereotypical billionaire master of the universe

9:52 Gods of tech. I think that movie However Exagerated it is. And how much it preys on our fear about the future.

10:02 But that's how people feel. That's nothing new. I go back to Stanley Kubrick's Doctor Strange Love. Which was about The prospect of a nuclear war.

10:15 Which really, if you ask your grandparents Defined Their whole life. These consequential moments that we are now experiencing. they experienced and I would say

10:27 They were probably more intense. The Cuba missile crisis. So Highly intense moment. And the struggle between the political philosophy of Western Europe and Eastern Europe.

10:39 That's a long winded way to say that Today I see culture moving with politics. In a America first Agenda.

10:48 And in a time of Technological disruption and uncertainty. We are clamoring to dos fings. That makes us feel good. Olive Garden.

11:00 Country music. Applebee's is booming. Banana Republic is Having The best year in

11:08 Probably decades. Abercrombie and Fitch. Abercrombie and Fitch. Somehow. Back from the dead. Exactly right. We recently did a diner in LA. called it the Skim Steiner. We took over a classic.

11:20 Drive in diner and We transformed it into a Skims experience, but Root beer floats and waffle stacks high and We in five minutes, I think we booked this place out for Ten days from morning to three in the morning.

11:35 From eight AM to Three AM every table went in four or five minutes. People were lining up for any spirit sees all around the block and It's just that feeling of comfort. You ask any twelve year old or fourteen year old today, what's your favorite T V show?

11:52 You'd be surprised how many people say friends. You're just clamoring for that. Лес фретен. Or Nostalgia.

12:02 That Those shows and those experience Gives you I really think that it's technological changes. And the uncertainty about the future.

12:12 Dad. has driven this pop culture moment. Does really if you think about it, has moved more From futurism. Two nostalgia.

12:21 Futurism We haven't really seen For quite some time. We're not hopeful about the future. Quite as much as we used to be.

12:31 Right now I'm obsessed with diners because I'm a disciple of popular culture, so I'm listening to country myself. I've had Morgan Wallen in the car on my way here. But I love diners because Diners is one of the few fings

12:45 That Now the retro. But they weren't a restaurant concept. That was born out of nostalgia like

12:53 Italian food. Diners were Хайпер модерн модерне структур. They were all about the future. It was in an era where cars were inspired by The space race.

13:06 They were inspired by rockets. Не вас all about this promise of what tomorrow had for us. And we were certain that this generation was going to be so much greater off. than the generation that had lived through The second world war

13:21 And I think today generally we are fearful of the future rather than optimistic. I think we should be optimistic about the future. Winston Churchill. He once said. I'm an optimist.

13:33 Because I see little used to being anything else. I'm definitely an optimist. The transition has been from hip hop to country and music. What else goes in that bundle of related cultural touchstones with hip hop? You touched on the comfort and nostalgia being why the new cultural touchstones have worked.

13:51 What about the ones we've transitioned away from work less well? I think it's reflected in sports too. I remember was it Eight years ago, ten years ago. But remember when

14:01 There was a lot of talk about CTE. I'm not so sure all parents still want their kids to play football. But it was really a conversation. There was this feeling that the NFL was somewhat in trouble. Was NFL going to go the way of boxing? Today

14:17 That feels laughable. Because NFL owns sports in this country. NFL is there. biggest sports league in the country and college Football is the second

14:27 Largest. Sport. In viewership numbers in this country. far ahead of basketball. For example.

14:35 To me it seems pretty consistent. Football. Taylor Swift, Morgan Wallen. Olive Garden Chili's

14:43 It's been in the news recently. They're killing it. We all want sliders and It's a very consistent culture moment. Таріслайна. Виді оверчим філіном в сосі.

14:55 Which is of course more protectionist. Than it's been In the past. And it's probably a counter reaction. to globalism.

15:05 Which Much like technology did not work. Four. Everybody. Speaking of cyclicality, the Abercronian Fitch story for some reason is just fascinating to me.

15:14 That this was this. Very fallen. brand that defined your and my upbringing. But then went the wrong way and somehow has been resurgent.

15:24 Tell me about what you think. learning about that story or watching that story. And I'm curious In general what other fallen brands might be able to make a comeback and how through learning from the story like that one. Or Banana Republic or others.

15:38 Oh, I love this question. Because it will lead me into something I really want to talk about. Big wins. In this era. I must have told anybody who wanted to listen five years ago to buy Abercrombie.

15:49 Think it was worth seven hundred or eight hundred million dollars at the time. I think there's a big difference between Вот консьерба. And a consumer story. And what is a

16:02 Wall Street. Фаншол прес. Story. Ironically, they don't seem to impact one another very much. If you asked consumers

16:13 about Abercrombie, I think they were going through a very tough time. Evercome the founder was in all sorts of trouble. He's been than he was in trouble. But if you ask a twenty something consumer If that would have impact their purchasing Behavior.

16:34 Common sense would say it would. But I never see it do. Victoria's secret is Right up there too. They had an Epstein connection because the founder Les Wexner had one.

16:46 They had totally lost that connectivity with the customer. Their fashion shows felt. outdated the way that they Portrayed women felt Outdated.

16:59 The whole concept in the early twenty twenty is felt. Really out of step with our times. And everybody said it's over. It's not over.

17:09 They're doing just fine. Now The street Are still Working on the thesis of

17:17 That story from twenty twenty. Нафиг сшифти волстріт. Use All Victoria's secrets. But the consumers go to any mall in America.

17:29 And you see early twenties something with a Sephora back, which is a darling. From a financial press point of view. And a Victoria's secret bag. They are unaffected.

17:40 We tend to overanalyse a little bit. And think that things really matter to customers that don't really matter to customers. We know that c Isn't great for us to drink with every meal. But Coca Cola seems to be doing just fine too. Yeah.

17:53 If you think about this idea of why big wins. What are these brands and these trends Teach you. And what's the core idea? I think big wins and I think big will

18:04 Increasing win. This is the time. For so many different reasons. One, going back to what we spoke about, which is Popular culture being one of the only hacks in the consumer economy.

18:18 So first going back, we have been in an era of brand creation. With Shopify and other tools Мейки інкредиблі ізі старт бізнес. And for Meta and other platforms. Very easy to

18:33 Find an audience that cared about what you were doing. Today The algorithm is not favoring Loyalty is not favoring necessarily who you followed.

18:45 Two years ago or five years ago? It favors who you recently follow. It favors what you're talking about over breakfast. With your partner? It favors things that you have engaged with.

18:57 That you clicked on Maybe something a friend sent to you and you watched it three times and now you're getting Serve tons of look alike content. It does not фейвер.

19:08 Brands making content. It's not putting that in front. Of its followers. I don't know how many people you follow, maybe I follow twelve hundred. Do I see content for more And two hundred of those. Never.

19:21 I don't. Sometimes I think, Oh my God, I haven't seen something for so long. Did they stop posting? Of course it didn't. It just moved past me.

19:29 Just didn't favor it. So as we went from a social media to really an interest based algorithm. That was pretty devastating for young brands.

19:42 It was very, very hard all of a sudden to build a community on social. The way that eight, nine years ago was very possible. Skims were one of the few larger brands that was able to build a community through social.

19:59 And get to a critiqueal scale. Where we could pay our way. But today you have to pay to play. If you want to be seen. The other part is distribution.

20:09 I've seen post covid In shopping has really returned to two thousand nineteen levels. In the end of the day.

20:18 It's eighty percent physicoal store business and twenty percent. An e commerce business today. Generally. In America. So people ask me

20:28 Why do you want to open so many stores? And I said, I don't wanna be in the twenty percent business, I wanna be in the eighty percent business. But opening stores Is incredibly expensive. It consumes a lot of capital to build stores.

20:41 If you and I was Trying to start the retailer. We would really struggle to find the financing and being able to open A nice store and a good location. Just unaffordable.

20:53 Big wins, especially Large retailers. Large restaurant chains. With a big footprint. It's almost impossible today.

21:04 to recreate. It's the perfect time to talk about how You broke through. How skims which is what five years old? It's not terribly yet. Coming up to six in September. Yes, almost six. Yeah. But your extremely young business. Kindergarten age. Kindergarten age. Yet you've broken through this difficult landscape.

21:21 Just tell us the entire origin story of how. And whether or not that's the model for If you were an entrepreneur sitting here today with a blank sheet of paper. What from the skim story could be borrowed and applied again productively to breakthrough. I have a

21:36 Distinct feeling that if I try to do it again. I wouldn't be successful today. When It comes to Disruption.

21:46 In consumer. And especially retail. Is more connected to changes in supply chain. And consumer taste. Then the brand

21:57 itself. It's not that a brand comes along. And then The world shifts or mobilizes it around the бран. Is

22:08 Former commentat Changes are happening. And the brand is in the right place at the right time. They say luck is when opportunity meets preparation.

22:19 And I think that's true. Timing. It's just one of those things that are beyond our control, some what I ultimately have to believe Tá.

22:29 The way we make product. The strength of what we do, the value proposition that we offer. A way to market but ultimately have had the same result. But I very much doubt it would have been On the same thing.

22:44 Timeline. Going back for history and I'll get into why this was the right moment. Less Wexner. Who is One of the godfathers of American retail created

22:56 Victoria's secret. Bath and body. Express Abercrombie. Hollister.

23:04 And more. Was it The brands it created. No, it was the fact that І коинцід

23:12 With malls being built in the eighty's all across America. And all these great malls. The Mall of America, for example. The very biggest one. There's a lot of sore fronts. These malls needed fresh concepts.

23:26 For their customers. Less Understood. This opportunity en created and bought. Companies and develop these concepts.

23:38 Та хіку репет. Time over time over time. With favorable economics. In all of the malls that was built in America. He's a genius of retail.

23:51 I'm just saying None of those. Retailers. Would be around If it hadn't been for the expansion of

24:00 The American Mall. If you're into luxury. Ralph Lauren. Donna Karen. George Armani.

24:08 Versace. Gucci. Dolce Garbana, I can go on. All happened within the same five years. Some of them might have been started slightly earlier.

24:18 But it was a distinct period of time. Where they expanded. And that's directly link Two Sacks.

24:28 And Neiman Marcus. And porn is Because these designers were able to sell their goods and finance the goods For something called factoring, where you get the money Before you get your invoice paid.

24:42 Creating a positive cash flow. Which is why someone like George Armani still owns a hundred percent of his business. That could not be replicated today. It was a unique situation and a unique financing model. та let them to be able to retain the full ownership

24:58 And scale their companies to a critical size. Two thousand eight. In the aftermath for the financial crisis. People want to designer values. But they wanted to pay less for them.

25:10 Enter. Michael Kors. Tori Birch. Dragon Bone. Expansion of coach.

25:18 And all of these companies that today makes five billion, ten billion, fifteen billion dollar businesses. There was a change in consumer taste. That's kinda well documented. What no one talks about is You remember all the diffusion lines?

25:33 D G Harmonic change. All of this diffusion lines. And there was only a couple of companies behind it, and they went bust. Оливесаден, оведевал, даваз одисфлорспейс.

25:46 For these lower price designer goods. The growth of those businesses And this change in distribution. All concide. Інамерика

25:55 We had The J C Pennies and the Gap. And they were disrupted by the Europeans. in the text that on Sara and HM. They had a better supply chain.

26:05 They were able to get trend. At the lower price. To the American customer. Faster. What is she?

26:13 It's an even more efficient model. It's a supply chain and software company. That is Masquerading as a retailer. They found an even more efficient way.

26:24 to make and supply trends At an even lower price. Technology disruption in supply chain. distribution Those things is what makes brands happen.

26:36 When Skims It was a combination of a few things. So one I saw this very large part. In retail.

26:45 In underwear. Lounge. I saw that people were Changing the way that they dress. Not just on weekends, but

26:55 Life was becoming two distinct wardrobes. One that is very soft. I'm not sure if you wear Vu Wari. Course. It's a great brand. And I'm sure when you come home tonight into it. There you go. So you have two wardrobes.

27:09 And you will have one at home and you had one out. Or while at work. And the one at home starts spilling in over your life. So that's one thing that's happening, consumer taste is changing. Incumbents

27:20 Had gotten stale. Discount driven. They weren't leading with innovation anymore. It was multi packs. Even though it was cheap.

27:30 We're paying a lot. For not very much. So I saw the opportunity to Really lead through innovation. in the supply chain.

27:40 And build Business Based on fabrication because What you love about Vori is the way You feel.

27:49 It's the feel. as you're wearing the product. The way the fabric will feel to skin. I'm getting a little scientific on this. But

27:58 I'm getting to a point. Вчис та із часто пау. As the difference in taste between Coke and Pepsi. If You buy something that's not the worry.

28:10 I promise you you'll feel the difference. Cuz you know exactly how the war is meant to feel. Well that's Coke and Pepsi challenge. It's a distinct sensory experience.

28:22 Like the first Starbucks. Feels a certain way. The first sip feeling. I saw the opportunity to create that in this category. In the beginning primarily for women, and now, of course, for everybody.

28:36 And Really bring out the company that was А берети It might be

28:45 Slightly more expensive, but still affordable. I think about Starbucks a lot. When I do these things. I think Starbucks to me is just a phenomenal innovation company.

28:56 Many of the things we take for granted, like a frappuccino or pumpkin spice latte or Starbucks. Inventions. And they're incredible at building these franchises. What they've done in the last couple of years with refreshers.

29:10 It's incredibly powerful and I took that analogy to my company. And I said I want to be the Starbucks. And the lesson there is the adaptability. the driving of franchises within the bigger brand. What specifically?

29:24 It's about doing something. That is worth The extra bit of money it costs. Because I'm sure you have coffee. If I ask, could I have a cup of coffee?

29:33 You might have coffee here. I'll get that for free. In fact, every office building in America has free coffee. My office has free coffee. Pretty good ones too.

29:43 But I still think the Starbuck is worth my five fifty or six dollars. It's at a premium. But it's still available to me. Still affordable. And I believe that the quality difference is worth the difference in price.

29:56 That's a philosophy. That I think Runs Like a red thread fruit. All of my thinking. Which is

30:05 How do I make Just a phenomenal experience for what you're paying. I'm less focused on the price. I'm more focused on what you get for your money. Can you talk about this concept of House taste.

30:18 And how it is Developed. Over time. And how that relates to The first sip feeling, the feeling on the skin of the warri, the distinctive

30:26 sensory experience or whatever that a consumer brand allows for and how that relates to taste. I'm fascinated by this topic. House taste. It's a dangerous, dangerous thing. I collect wine.

30:37 I love white. Every winery. I go to they truly believe that their wine It's the best in the world. Why did they believe that?

30:46 They often have worked there for Ten years, twenty years. So they drink a lot of their own wine. And safe to say They've developed the wine.

30:56 That is perfect for their palate. Therefore, they truly believe their wine is the best in the world because every other wine they try. Will not Taste as good as the one they make. House taste is

31:09 Therefore a dangerous concept for any company. You shouldn't get high on your own supply. You certainly shouldn't get too in love with what you're doing. It happens pretty easily, and I see it With a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of founders.

31:24 They are really in love with their own Product. А не спен алота там. Everyone they meet Why their product is the best in the world.

31:37 rather than letting people tell them what they think about what they make and I was aware of this, so What we did out of the gate was just really creating a very strong feedback loop With our own community.

31:52 not losing ourselves In our own house taste. The customer is always right. What was the mechanism for that? How did you actually build that feedback loop? Really for social. Some of it you can't.

32:04 Do for process. And that's good. But Culture its process. Just the culture of a company that is open to outside feedback.

32:14 I think that has to come from the top. If I'm open to feedback, you will be open to feedback. And down the reporting line. It will go. Assuming that

32:25 If a customer feels a certain way. It's warranted because they feel a certain way. We talked a little bit about the conditions that made schem possible, the supply chain, the technology. mentioned Sheen, which I think has ten times better unsold inventory performance than the next most relevant. So the business is much better.

32:43 And not getting sucked in by house taste is positive feedback. I'd love to talk about the other side of the equation, which is The brilliant partnership with Kim, how it was established. The phrase I've heard before is the king that became a king maker, or queen that became a queen maker. I wanna talk about the origins of this relationship. Maybe even going back to the first conversation you can remember having.

33:04 About this idea. And Tell us that story to begin. The whole process was very organic. I've had the pleasure of being

33:13 part of a few startups from my life and When it's at its best, it happens organically. And when it's too contrived, or you're trying to like force a good idea, like what should we do? It tends not to work out quite so well. She really

33:30 Had an estetic point of view. On what she wanted to make. And I had a point of view what was missing from this Category. From a price.

33:41 position innovation piece. From her point of view Very much aesthetically driven. Certain solutions and things that just wasn't available in the market. That she wanted to bring to market.

33:56 Through a serious conversation, we just endeav in a place. Where We were just doing it. I don't know if there was everything. Let's do this thing.

34:06 It was more like, Oh, we're definitely doing this thing. When you're an entrepreneur it's not that you want to do something. If That you cannot not do something. You wake up and you just you cannot leave it alone.

34:19 And once she showed me aesthetically what she wanted to create. I couldn't get That out of my head. I will have

34:29 I had sold my businesses That was In my Late thirties.

34:37 Semi retired. I'd been walking around for maybe a year. Two years I was still the chairman. of a group put in on the comm At the time.

34:47 I was really trying to search for it. What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And then Once I saw what she had in mind. There was no question about what I was going to do. This is what I

35:00 Had to do. Was it a specific feature? Was it a look? It was a world. It was just stepping into A world that no one else owned. Aesthetically.

35:10 I spend my whole life talking in these terms. I understand it might Seem very clear to me. When I say that. Expression and

35:18 Less clear to others. What I mean. Stepping into world. When you go into Ralph Lauren, you're in Ralph Lawrence world. It's very clear where you are.

35:28 You could take all the signs off the walls. And you know where you are. When I saw aesthetically what she wanted to do. It was just instantly identifiable. Distinctive.

35:42 Just the look. It was just so distinctive. The color world, the architecture. The attitude towards Women.

35:51 How to lift people up. It was Inclusive without ever Having to say The word.

35:59 It wasn't a decision. It just Most naturally It was so distinctive. I just had to help bring that to life. And so what was step one? You step into a world and then you have to go make products and start to distribute them. What was that?

36:13 First chapter defined by I think there's two distinct steps to starting a company. One is a hell of a lot more fun than the second. Dreaming. First is the visualizing. It's gratifying, it's fast. You Start

36:30 Putting together this mood and design and All that's incredibly gratifying. It's fast. And then Comes the second step.

36:40 Where most good ideas goes to die, which is the execution. Of bringing that to life at the right cost. I've been in this world for my whole life, it's what I do. You have interviewed Some of the most

36:53 Unbelievable investors. And I'm sure founders and If some altman wanted to Build another product he knows. How to do it. This is what he does.

37:04 Put together Exceptional talent to build an exceptional product. The world is full of communities, and I have mine. I can build an exceptional team. That helped us.

37:15 have an exceptional result. That's second nature. We're all good at Something. I've been relatively good in my career starting with a blank piece of paper.

37:26 And I'll figure it out. In my head, I make sense of the scramble. I can articulate the mess into a step. A step one and a step two and a step three, and what is that process? What is literally going on in your head or what are you literally doing in those early days to

37:41 Bring some order to the messy chaos of possibility that hasn't been executed yet. Probably in Intuitive.

37:51 I'm a very objective person. I can remove myself emotionally. from pretty much any situation and just really look at it. Very matter of fact. And that's incredibly helpful.

38:04 When you start something You need to have A healthy dose of naivete. That's important. In my business

38:12 Experience helps. It's very physical. For me, it all starts with a product. I was Trained as a marketer my whole

38:21 First chapter of my life. Well One of a marketer, and if you ask me Who am I today? I probably still

38:29 Tent to fies a marketer first and foremost. But I know its role. It's Lipstick. In the end of the day.

38:39 It's only there to Excelerate. Or to accentuate Something that is already there. And I always say that.

38:48 You have to create the product so great. That you will still get to the same place with or without marketing. Just on the strength of the product alone. Sometimes when I've Hired.

39:01 People into the marketing functions The trick question is The last ad campaign they saw from Tesla.

39:09 They struggle with that question because Tesla don't make advertising. It certainly hasn't stopped them. I think the product It's omnipotent. It's number one, two, and three.

39:20 And everything else we do. It's just to aid the awareness and selling. Of that product. A product is everything. So Єрс Пьо ви ланч та камні, ви старте.

39:33 in product development. Really going all the way down to raw material. Thinking about How can I bring A product

39:43 А ексепшнол квалітин філ. At an affordable price. And that was my whole focus. Because The companies that does solve it.

39:55 I mean I'll talk a lot about Bewarr today, but that's Probably because it's somewhat more. Well, it's more comfortable sometimes to make an example Using others and I think they've done a good job there. Kind of the anti skims because The not so marketing led.

40:11 They were Really leading for fabrication. And your experience Was probably someone told you about it. We walk past the store.

40:20 Or a friend of you wore it. They have gotten to a similar place. Just through the strength of their product. been around longer. In the end of the day

40:29 Product really is omnipotent. Formi any venture. that I'm involved in As a founder Or as an investor.

40:38 I'm just laser focused on the strength of the product. I don't care about anything else. The product is everything. What was the biggest breakthrough that you remember in the product development days for the early Skims products? Was it a specific material? Was it something else? I come back to culture and the whole company was built on Product franchises. You don't really know what people will be gravitating to

41:01 right out of the box. I felt incredibly strongly about what we had done. But when we came to market. There was this moment maybe um a couple of months in or a month in. I think we had two million customers on wait list for product and We had no product left at all.

41:18 And no product coming. Девосні момент фошови на ріалайз. That it really had hit the nerve. That Our timing had lined up.

41:27 Piople genuinely love the product. The world that we build was highly desirable And it was One plus one

41:37 Plus one. Wasn't free, it was a hundred all of a sudden. It was just Asymmetric. the amount of interest that that customers

41:46 had in the brand and Six years in I think Skims is A far more important company culturally than it is.

41:57 The size of a business. We're still Small company For what I believe. It's a very big brand.

42:05 I like this phrase that you told me before, which is that By nature you're the sort of person that likes to take yards, not inches. Which makes me wonder about that you Had this incredible opportunity. early on to make a huge splash.

42:17 Through Kim and others. For a lot of people to know about this. How did you orchestrate that? And talk a little bit about her And your idea

42:26 to not just have it be about her, but have it be a platform for other people. Like her to spread the brand around the world. I guess such a cool Idea. Kim is incredibly clever.

42:37 She doesn't get enough credit for What a great executive she is. She's very smart. She's a public person. She's also a private person.

42:48 A celebrity, probably one of the most famous people in this world. She's also a creative director. I think we share. Саме да обжективне. She can very much compartmentalize, I believe, the different roles.

43:02 That She plays. And Draw lines between The different areas of her life.

43:10 We were Both very Aware that If you want to build something

43:17 With longevity. If you want to make something that really matters. It has to be a platform. It can't be about One person.

43:28 I remember showing her a picture of this kid. in an American city wearing a pair of beats headphones and A pair of Jordans. Way before we launched, and I said to her That kid has never watched Michael Jordan play basketball.

43:42 Nor do they listen to Doctor Dre. Yet Both of those companies would have been impossible without It's founders. So the war

43:51 to make schemes a Pop culture platform. really started day one. Because we knew it took time. What made beats beats.

44:02 Was LeBron wearing it? Between the bus And the locker room. What made Jordan People say, Oh, Jordan or they called skims in the early days a celebrity brand and I said, That's fine.

44:16 Is Jordan a celebrity brand? It is. It's just forty years old. At this point. It's

44:24 The fact that the Jordan Platform allowed Other athletes. That shared his Competitive sp

44:34 Spirit. And athletes that were connected to culture. And you kind of know what the Jordan Athlete is about. The Jordan Bryant is inspired and built upon

44:48 Michael Jordan's importance in popular culture. In that era And has become a platforming pop culture for forty years as a result of it. I'm paraphrasing slightly, but

45:02 I believe that Twenty years ago about Форте фітін перцент американ теніжор тобі професіонал афліт. Today that number is more like three percent. But almost twenty percent of American teenagers today want to be a creator or an influencer.

45:19 Well for you, tell me, isn't Kim Kardashian the Michael Jordan of the influencer generation? I would say she is. She deserves to have a brand that is inspired by that. And a brand that we live on in Firty, forty, and fifty years as a

45:33 platform in popular culture just like Jordan is in sport. What have you learned about That transference From the original source. Jordan or Doctor Dre or Kim in this case.

45:45 to others that share some set of common features, the competitive spirit for Jordan. Teach me about what you've learned about doing that effectively. And how to borrow the original source and transfer it to other fantastic

45:59 Athletes and musicians and people that you work with. I'm gonna put that to Kim. Because she's a participant in popular culture. Not an analyst or Someone who is

46:10 Trying to figure it out. She is it. Naturally. Are these positions different? Corporate America

46:18 Looks at What they do and they over analyze it. And the invest time And money. In research and decision making.

46:29 And to build consensus about who to endorse and what to do. They try to create content. That Everybody can be happy with and sign off. And then it put the

46:41 out in this world. No one cares. No one really cares. But it's also one year later. It's like If my wife asked me what I want for dinner on first day on a Monday. I don't know what I went for dinner on Firthday. It's Monday.

46:53 Popular culture is Dairy, it goes off. The first thing we did Воз First

47:01 Go at it. Not everything we do is going to be successful. Not everything is going to track. We don't Optimize for what is going to work and not work.

47:12 That sounds simple. Maybe counterintuitive. But If you want to be in the sightgeist It's about doing.

47:21 rather than not doing. It's about action rather than inaction. So You do more. Rather do less. The second thing It's just the decision making process.

47:31 You can't Operate. Six months in advance, a year in advance. It's impossible. But imagine If we operated

47:41 Six weeks in advance. Well, six weeks in advance, I know who's gonna be nominated for the Oscars. I know who's likely going to be up at the Grammys. I know. That the next season of White Lotus is coming out. I know when the C finale is going to be.

47:55 So when you're operating Much more In the immediate se or popular culture. Your chance of being effective

48:06 Increases exponentially. So if you think about some of the stuff that we've done at Skims Last year For the MBA, the face of skims was Shajil Alexander. That was his breakout year. This year was Donovan Mitchell.

48:21 Last year we featured Patrick Mahomes and family over the holidays. We didn't know he would win the Superbowl. He was a survivor. You could know that a year to get it. Exactly. But when we featured Usher, we knew he was doing the halftime show.

48:38 When We had the Italian girls that played a pivotal role in This isn't for us. Oh white loaders It was clear that

48:47 They were the breakout. So what's the decision making process? It's very simple. I love white loaders. Wouldn't it be cool? That

48:58 We're all a little bit quietly excited about were our Valentine's couple. And we took them out of the show. I think going by What are we interested in? What do we want to see? What are we excited about?

49:13 You can ask me right now. This afternoon, what I want for dinner, I will have a pretty good idea of what I fancy. Public culture is the same thing. I know right now What I wanna see. Then

49:27 The only thing stopping us is our ability to attract the talent or the opportunity to do it for us in that moment. Then you have to take a lot of chances. Not everything is going to hit. We had Sabrina Carpenter One week before she went number one with espresso.

49:46 I wish I was one week later. We are really working with As a team, as a company, as a culture. What do we want to see? Right now.

49:56 And then we try to make it happen, and we're not trying to hit it out the park every single time. If you like baseball. Shay O'Tani, greatest baseball player probably ever lived, even though I'm sure that's debatable. He doesn't hit the home run every time he steps up to bat. That's us.

50:11 We don't hit the home run every time we step up to bat, but We hit them often enough. I love the simple device of wouldn't it be cool? It is As good of a process to determine what to do.

50:24 As anything else. It's часа our culture and especially When we are responsable. Founders and executives We love the idea that we can control.

50:37 An unpredictable outcome. We can't. If we could. Every L tv to CAC model that you ever saw over the past fifteen years when I worked out And let me tell you.

50:50 I haven't seen one. What does it require on the operational side to be able to deliver against the wouldn't it be cool strategy, whether that's supply chain Marketing operations Distribution. It seems like the system needs to be able to accommodate.

51:05 That fast turn. You build that muscle, you build it over time. It's not hard in the beginning. Small companies can do remarkable things. Every Founder would tell you that

51:17 But the first Twenty Twenty people can accomplish It's unbelievable. And what the next Fausing can accomplish.

51:26 It's disappointing. Why? What is it? You've done this a number of times. What happens in that transition that makes that true? As a company grows Тер неї стоби дисплін, де нес тобі сенсо структур.

51:38 It needs to have a sense of process. They're necessary. But if you're not very, very careful. They'll kill what made you special to begin with. I think that's true for any sector.

51:50 What about the pricing? Of distribution represented by these great Partnerships. You mentioned what's Dwayne Narock Johnson worth.

51:59 Five billion dollars. Is this asset? Well priced, or is there still enough? Arbitrage for brands. How does Donovan Mitchell

52:08 I'm a huge fan of. No his own price. How do you think about That dynamic and how It evolves.

52:16 I have never Spend too much time. Worrying about The RY Of one.

52:26 Singular opportunity. I think if you do Two things can happen. You can be right. And positively surprised.

52:36 And next time you make a mistake. Or you can be disappointed. Leading you to think that you're overspent And therefore pull back and not do the next one. I come back to a little bit.

52:47 Wouldn't this be cool to do? Am I proud of the result? Am I excited about it? Do we think it represented a brand well? Think those things are more important. And again just the pace of output.

52:59 Constantly being in the conversation. The hard thing We're building an e commerce company. is that we don't own any real estate. The real estate is the mind share.

53:12 Keeping customers attention It's incredibly hard. We take in a enormous amount of messages in our daily lives. When we were kids, we took in

53:23 A fraction. Not a percent even of what we're taking in today. When I say The Coke Pepsi challenge, you know what I'm talking about. Have you seen a Coke Pepsi challenge? They might not have done it for

53:35 Thirty years. I have no idea when the Coke Pepsi challenge even happened. Yeah. It is my mind. If I say the album cover of Nirvana, okay. We can close right to see it. I have no idea. What an album cover is of any artist.

53:50 In the last five years. Things can be incredibly important for an hour. In our culture today. I can't change that. The only thing I can do.

53:59 is that can increase the output. I've heard you s use the phrase. Post truth media. What does that mean and what are the implications of it? The two folds.

54:08 One. You don't necessarily trust what you read. Even from a trusted news source. That could be misguided. But that's how people feel.

54:17 Амна такинь об. Воріс факт. And when it's not fact, I'm talking about how. Most Americans Feel.

54:27 About what they read. They're sceptical. We have gravitated to individual voice. As a source of information But also As a source of the singular truth.

54:42 You can be a disciple of Elon Musk. Or you can be a disciple of A or C. And you're far more likely to believe Either of those two. And the Washington Post.

54:56 What do you think? The implications of AI on that whole Trend. I'm assuming you think maybe it makes that Even more true that we align ourselves with people.

55:04 And a coherent perspective. Which whether or not it's Correct truth. It's continuous and coherent. Absolutely.

55:12 It's the only way to go. The power of the individual is only going to strengthen in this current culture. No doubt about it. However

55:22 We probably have to ready ourselves for a time. Where If Elon Musk Says it. We will be debating if he actually indeed

55:31 Did say it. Анфунатлі As a result of deep fakes, we are probably going to be sceptical.

55:41 Soon enough and I believe in the power of networks. I believe in closed networks. We follow individuals and we will make sure that they are saying it and will take their words as gospel. I think It's already there.

55:56 I've long wanted to invest in a company that made it possible for Elon to digitally sign and verify some piece of content. So if anyone listening, That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I would love to back something like that. Of course. It's going to happen, and ironically The way we watch television now is we watch it over a period of time. The whole premise of the movie Mountainhead. And I'm not gonna give away any spoilers, don't worry.

56:18 But it's the premise about for Tech founders In a remote hilltop house. One has just made these AI tools available. Where we cannot tell what's real and what's not.

56:32 And the other person has exactly what you're saying. He has the technology that can validate or invalidate. content. Та іс есенчій премис. Of the movie, it's a satire, just like Doctor Strange Love was a satire.

56:47 Of a dark future. However It's hard not to think that It's incredibly important to validate. information that we're getting.

56:57 Increasing the summer. Say a little bit more about the power of networks and What you believe is powerful. Especially set in today's environment or the near term future. I see it in chat groups. WhatsApp

57:07 has emerged as a much more powerful tool of information sharing. Вам чат крипта Suntime has the one with famous one. It's the famous one. I would think

57:21 It's one of my more trusted sources of information of what's going on in our economy today. When there's critical events happening. I turn to that chat group. I find it

57:34 Highly Informative I respect the voices. Ultimately the individuals In that group.

57:41 That's a power of a Micro network. But it's incredibly important. Овісли висловити, о Чуч. Our basketball team.

57:51 Friend group networks have always existed. But these Larger closed networks. With a thousand members or a million members, but it's closed. They have a lot of power.

58:02 I think Reddit is emerging as a platform with a tremendous amount of power today. Let's say I snap my fingers and skims disappeared and you had to go build another company in a vertical Where you could apply some of these same ideas and models that needs it a place that's stale. Or has gotten stagnant.

58:21 Where would your instinct pull you today? I'm very excited about the creator economy. I think we are. In the Early innings.

58:32 Of the creator economy. I'm An investor in several companies, but one that I have been a little bit more involved with. There's one called Passes.

58:42 Which was founded by Lisigure. Uh Also co founder of Scale AI. She's built a

58:49 platform for creators to directly Monetise Their audience, their fan base. And I think that's incredibly powerful. I think we're in the beginning.

59:00 Uh Talent. Building and monetizing Their own networks. It can be a network around fly fishing.

59:07 It could be a great chef. It can be an Aflet. It can be pop star. So it can be a thousand members, it can be millions of members. But I really believe

59:18 In the power of that. Choose. More intimate network. Where we engage Directly with

59:26 Самої аміре войс в авториті, сама на інсперса. There's a real need for it today because Going back to The social algorithm They are really not about following as much as they're about

59:40 Entertainment today. А фінк талант. Oh creators. Have realised

59:48 They don't really own their audience. Anymore. You don't really own your following. А гео чанж. You can do it after.

59:57 Go And look at three different artists. Let's say one has five million followers. One has twenty million and I'll Give you name of someone who has to say.

1:00:07 Three hundred or four hundred million. You'll find the exact same amount of engagement. How's that statistically possible? Well it is because engagement is being spread. The size of the following

1:00:19 Doesn't matter so much. Anymore. So that audience someone has built maybe Spent ten years building that size of that following. But now they're actually unable

1:00:30 to communicate With that following. The not getting through. You have four hundred million followers, and you say something. Four hundred milyen people is not going to see it.

1:00:43 Only a fraction. I have no opinion if that's good or if it's bad. It's clearly good, otherwise we wouldn't have moved away from it. It is what it is, and I'm sufficiently entertained. I'm a very happy customer.

1:00:57 of Instagram. Це фастик прода. I'm excited about it. Having said that Of course it's creates

1:01:04 Тис опорніті To build these networks. Where you have your own captives audience. And then can monetize That audience.

1:01:15 I'm trying to think of Places that had this iconic the equivalent of the four hundred milyen and are in a hard spot. If you were the economist or The Wall Street Journal or

1:01:27 The financial time. What would you do against this? Reality. It was about the brand. Economist doesn't publish bylines, but I can't name you a Wall Street Journal.

1:01:36 Author anymore. I used to be able to name lots of them. I think you started in magazines. In the UK, yeah, several. And so I would love to hear a little bit about that. What if anything is left from That era that might still be applicable today.

1:01:49 And what you would do if you were The economist or something. I don't have all the answers. This is a Tricky question. Because I believe that

1:01:57 News organizations have And Incredibly important role within society. I think it's a shame. Some of it they did to themselves.

1:02:10 Partly because of what we're talking about. They had to create journalism that Was clickbait. That's saying show me the incentive and I'll show you the result. They had to create incentive structures.

1:02:22 Or to people working there. to get eyeballs on what they were doing. I think that changed things. This is just my personal opinion. I'm not a highly political person. This is not me making a

1:02:34 Political statement. In any shape, way or form. I'm just objectively observing. That During the first Trump administration

1:02:45 What he often refers to as mainstream media Saw it as an existential threat. They took action. that over time

1:02:56 in many cases undermine some of their editorial integrity. Or at least that's what A large part of America believes today, rightfully or wrongfully so. As we went into covid. They just were not able to put the gini back in the bottle.

1:03:11 I was listening to the All In podcast and I can't remember which one of the guys That said it. But I thought it was very insightful. And I'm paraphrasing again. The set of journalism became activism.

1:03:23 And I think maybe it did for a period of time. It's been pretty hard to put that. Back in the bottle today. What do you remember most fondly from your magazine days? Was just a

1:03:34 Wonderful thing to do because it's the storytelling It's a sense of discovery. And then Storytelling.

1:03:44 I used to work for GQ. And the editor of GQ in the UK was G Dylan Jones and I think he probably was one of the greatest magazine editors. Of all time.

1:03:56 Everybody worked H GQ were frustrated with him at times because he said I knew Arctic monkeys were going to blow and He wouldn't write about it or I knew this was gonna happen and

1:04:11 I was so excited about this that and then he said no or He knew that He was the top two percent of the readers. But he was a customer of his own journalism. So there was a moment in time.

1:04:25 When he got it. It was never first. But it wasn't supposed to be. It was supposed to be in GQ when he knew about it. And he taught me

1:04:35 This idea of Not to break things. You didn't have to be first. You need to be at the forefront of your own. Customer. That thinking

1:04:46 has really reflected on most things I've been involved with. I'm not so worried about always being first, a product being first, or First mover advantage. I think it's Sometimes

1:05:00 Phenomenal to be number two or three. That can be a Much better placed to be, in fact. I'm focused more when I think it's right. Where it resonates with me.

1:05:10 And I'm not Necessarily on The cutting edge. But I'm probably the tip of the spear of mainstream. And the other thing working for a magazine called wallpaper in the UK

1:05:23 Under the guy who founded that magazine called Tyler Brûle. I learned two things. One is that A magazine can be a reflection of your own interest in your own life. And wallpaper just for say

1:05:36 total reflection of what we as a team were living through in that moment in time. And I think that's what made it so powerful. It also taught me that

1:05:49 You can't hold on to a good idea. Meaning When you're early on something When you found a different way to communicate or speak or Create product.

1:06:00 Everybody's going to pile in. You have to контію to transform On your way up.

1:06:09 Because once you plateau it's already too late. A guy that made a big impression on me was a guy called Pierre Yves Rassel. He was the chairman of Lou Vuitton or LVMH fashion. And he said, Yan's the secret to our success. Is that we always transform.

1:06:24 On the way up. And there's a truth to that because you think Хави оперейт. Is as long as it's good. We don't want to change.

1:06:35 And then when things plateau or Trails off. Human nature optimistic, so we go it's a moment. W'bi back. We were first. We did this first. They will s remember it.

1:06:49 It's gonna come back. And then it doesn't come back. Then we start thinking about changing And then by the time we're actually Have implemented any change.

1:07:01 Things are already going down. Who fires the CEO? When a company is growing. Almost nobody. Sometimes maybe we should.

1:07:11 The Knicks just fired Tibbs an hour ago after going to the Eastern Conference Finals. There you go. Same question. So glad I asked about magazines. About your work in agency. Working with brands like H M and others. I would love the same set of reflections of what you take from that time of your life. Well I was

1:07:32 Unsatisfied. Working on behalf Of everybody else. It comes a moment in your life where you wanna be the guy.

1:07:42 A working for the guy. I knew that In my early thirties. However. Much I would build this group.

1:07:50 In the end of the day. I was figuring out ways to sell time. And at the end of it There's not that much emotional ownership. Of the work that you create.

1:08:03 You're a higher gun. You go home at the end of the day. And when something goes wrong. It's your fault. When it goes

1:08:13 Well It wasn't you. It's a pretty thankless Place. To have a full career.

1:08:20 А ветл because I had the opportunity to work У сам дикрест To ever do it. Rama Raffini.

1:08:32 Uh Montclair. And Becoming Inspired.

1:08:38 To the point where I want it to be Like them. Not work for them. What did those two teach you? What was the bar of excellence that they showed you?

1:08:49 Remote Taught me about the power Of The role of art in commerce.

1:08:59 And Letting go And he took Something which was a small company called Montclair. And it was a small ski company.

1:09:10 And he attached it to Fashion. And the popular culture. And to sport. He was able to

1:09:19 Feel just a Unbelievable brand. And company By borrowing all the Qs while staying true to the core of the product.

1:09:30 Which was performance ski. If it wasn't for that experience, I wouldn't have started skims, I wouldn't have started frame. The thing with underwear that People Don't really think of and I don't blame them.

1:09:43 Is that they have a lot more in common with a sneaker than they do with a T shirt. They're all performing highly Complicated. Fit. It has to do a job.

1:09:55 Especially In women's more so than for men's. It has to Оформ фо Twelve hours in a row, fourteen hours?

1:10:07 That's a performance product. There's a much higher moat. Much harder to compete, much harder to innovate product in it. Once you have a customer's trust. They're very loyal.

1:10:19 Super high retention. Underwear and performanceware has A lot in common. And the same thing if you think about performance ski. It's highly complex, highly technical. It has to do a job for you.

1:10:31 I looked at taking a category like that and attaching it to culture and If I hadn't Had the opportunity to observe. Redmond Montclair. I don't know if I would have Gone about

1:10:44 Building skins the way that Kim and I went about building skins. He works to inspire and excite his customer. For all of his Анбивал сук се.

1:10:58 It's just Highly in tune. With what his customers will give him agency to do or not to do. I come back to this notion of being objective. He has that in space.

1:11:11 What do you think is gonna Fill the role of status. In the future when machines are smarter than we are and do a lot of the tasks and A lot of the things that might have earned us status in the past might be different in the future.

1:11:24 I don't think status is going anywhere. human Want I don't think our physique

1:11:36 Are going Anywhere? But let's Assume that it is going somewhere. What is status to my eleven year old?

1:11:45 Well HIHA status In what he has achieved in roadblocks. He feels A great sense of status.

1:11:54 What he's built. What he has А дом финк та статус из лимита фізика обжекція. Humankind will always find ways to display status. If you interact in social gaming

1:12:09 From what I'm seeing. Oliver. C of status here in our physical world. is in their digital world. It's a direct transference. There's

1:12:22 Ri no difference. I don't know what the future looks like in twenty years. But as far as my children goes They Combine

1:12:32 Fisical Ан Дидл статус. What Teenager Or

1:12:37 Twenty something doesn't have status in the amount of followers they have. Status. Excess. In so many different ways. I don't think that's going anywhere.

1:12:47 It's right up there with hunger. It's a basic humanid. Let's talk about investing for just a minute. You're an investor too, and have been for a long time. You also get to work. I talked to Neil and Josh ahead of this. Two of the great investors of our era that have been big partners of yours.

1:13:02 I'm curious about What you've learned makes for great investors. From working with them? And also just how you think about your own investing and the broader trends happening in the investing world. We've talked about private equity before. And the implications of that evolving landscape.

1:13:17 Tell us your thinking on the world of investors and investing. George and Neil are both. Really, really Special People.

1:13:27 Dare I say atypical in many ways. They're both Guys um really high conviction. That take

1:13:36 A long term. View. And They take A lot.

1:13:43 Fewer bets. than many other people that I know. In the venture space. They really do believe in doubling down behind their winners and staying engaged. And they seem really un

1:13:58 Based on Bye. A new cycle. A month. A quarter.

1:14:05 They Tend to have Really long term views. On everything. And they invest into that world view.

1:14:14 And I think that's ultimately going to make them They're already incredibly successful. I'm scared for how successful those two are going to be. They're young too. Given twenty years of compounding into this world view.

1:14:27 Most people are Oh really optimistic? Don't have the stomach for the long term. I find uh

1:14:35 A lot of investors I come across Or Very influenced. Bye. Market trends.

1:14:43 When something is good, there's no end to how good it can get. When something is bad, there's no end to how bad it can get. On twenty one. You can give away Retail.

1:14:54 Real estate. Now it's the hottest part of the market. Years ago you can Giveaway offices. Now

1:15:03 occupancy and The right places are At capacity is no end to demand. Very few people dare to have their own long term view and I think Both of them do.

1:15:14 Honestly, I've learned from that. I don't know where the world is going within the next year. But I think we can be relatively confident where the world is going in five years. I think we can be very confident where the world's going in five or even ten years. It shouldn't be impossible to if you have the stomach for it.

1:15:33 If you invest With that perspective, you're going to be right more times than you're wrong. How would you summarize where you think the world's going in five or ten years? We touched on some of it today. If you go with my theory Which by the way is not my theory.

1:15:47 I think is wildly established that we're living in kind of a post truth society. That's been written endlessly about. А за резулт. an individual voice Can cut through

1:16:01 And control a narrative and what they say is taken as the truth. Over what You refer to as an anonymous journalist. Well, let's assume that's the case.

1:16:14 An individual It's going to be only More important, not less important. If The algorithm is going towards a place of entertainment not following

1:16:25 One has to assume that the person that has a high degree of influence Вилгавді опочніті. To forge their own Network.

1:16:36 Those are two basic things that I don't think I'm going to be very wrong about. Which Product. Will work.

1:16:45 I couldn't tell you which founder That's going to be successful. I don't know. But I No

1:16:53 Where it's going. If I had their expertise. And many others. Where They have enough of a sample and enough of a nose for great founders.

1:17:04 You want to back people that are creating the companies that fits this world view and Hopefully you're going to be right. Say a bit about the future for skimps, both From the perspective of maybe an IPO on the horizon.

1:17:18 Maybe new product lines, things that you're doing to transform on the way up. As you said before. What's next for skimps? What I'm working on is how do I scale. At pays

1:17:32 The business to meet The global demand. For the brand. Right now. It's a big global brand.

1:17:41 А ви тоді бізнес. The way the customers like to do business. Which is Highly in person. I'm very focused on

1:17:53 The global fizical Distribution. Of scales. That's important. And I'm now starting to tie some of these things we've talked about, I guess.

1:18:04 Together Which is If social media is a Less Ефективні.

1:18:16 What really matters is the community that I'm building through my app. And loyalty. Today, about a year after we launched our own Up we do. Over twenty percent of more business through it.

1:18:29 But Building our app and loyalty. Which is A nice way to say trying to expand that direct community in a close network. Where I can have my customers attention.

1:18:43 That's gonna be the difference maker. I think over the next five. Years or so. To continue to evolve the way we do business. To continue to be surprising.

1:18:54 When we started We did a lot of things that no one else did. At the pace no one did it. I have to ride watch it, so we don't come a victim. Over on success.

1:19:09 So we have to continue to innovate not just on the product side. Пер also на макетін сайт. When Luke Got traded to Lakers, just to

1:19:18 Bring it back to basketball again. Clearly watch too much basketball. No such thing, in my opinion. Lucky for me now it's the Pacers and OK C feels like I can miss the whole series, so I get some time back. If it was Nick's, I would have to watch it.

1:19:32 When Luca got traded To the Lakers. I was watching I think it was first take. On ESPN. And it said

1:19:40 We're now waiting for Luca to show up in the skims campaign. First of all. Whenever to talk about skims on ESPN, I'm excited. So I was very happy. However.

1:19:50 If there's an expectation There's also not A surprise. To мі, that se сигнал. That we have to

1:20:00 Take a step further. And Continue to do The unexpected And

1:20:09 Hall of Luca. So The door is open. If he wants to do it. Having said that

1:20:18 It's to do what you're not expecting me to do next. If anything. Keeps me up at night, it's probably that idea. We've talked about all the money and assets and companies that are in private markets. And I'm curious as an entrepreneur.

1:20:32 We've thought a lot about investing, how you think about being private versus being public and the trade offs associated with both. What are we doing this for? I think it's a Fair question. And I ask other founders.

1:20:46 T. As a founder of a company that receives a lot of public attention, like skims. I have the opportunity to meet other founders that have created unbelievable businesses. That also are in the public eye. We talk about it.

1:21:02 What are we doing it for? Because Money. In my view, is the result Of doing something great. Money by itself is a poor purpose.

1:21:14 It shouldn't be. The reason we get up. In the morning. It should be the result. Of us doing something we love.

1:21:22 And doing a great job. And exciting our customers. And that should be rewarded. But that's me as a founder. If you're an investor

1:21:31 The money is the purpose in many ways. Not for everybody. It's not the whole cake. It's important. It's the biggest part of the cake.

1:21:39 It should be. If not, they weren't doing their jobs. But as a founder You don't sit and think. I'm gonna start this company because I'm gonna make so much money with it. For my investors. For my investors. That's why I'm gonna go through this pain and give up my life.

1:21:57 To make sure that in five to ten years time. I'm giving an excellent return to those that invest in my C round. That's just not how you think. You wake up and you say I have to do it. I cannot live with not doing this thing.

1:22:14 And then you gotta love it. And you gotta love it. True. The great times because there's enough Hard times in

1:22:24 Any entrepreneurial journey. That you need a lot of love to carry you through. Feng Yan Sin Hong said. Yeah, the day Something along the lines of that

1:22:35 He would never be an entrepreneur if he knew how hard it was. I have to be an entrepreneur to do what I love to do. The way I want to do it. And I had to be an entrepreneur to realize the creative vision that I think entrepreneurship is. So I had no choice.

1:22:52 This is what I have to do. We that As you Bring something to life and you Bring capital partners on board.

1:23:01 You have A duty you have a responsibility. I treat Everybody's money like your own. I understand that

1:23:10 my motivation and their motivation, there's times where They're not going to be completely aligned. I'm going to be in this company for A very long time. I'm probably going to go public one day. My cap table in five years is going to look nothing like the cap table.

1:23:30 Today. And that's okay. I know how the game goes, and my Responsibility at this point is actually to deliver an excellent return for my shareholders. And in the process.

1:23:42 Hopefully having a good time doing it. Formi the most important thing is to do a great job. And have fun. And if I'm doing great work and I have a good time doing it. Money normally.

1:23:56 follows. public, private It's really matter of taste. You used to have to go public. Today there's this semi liquid market that has emerged.

1:24:08 That gives A lot of early shareholders at least. A great deal of optionality. You look at companies like Stripe or

1:24:17 SpaceX. optionality and liquidity for early shareholders and People can trade in and trade out, even Privately.

1:24:27 Maybe it's less important today. Than it was For me I made A choice to have institutional Shareholders.

1:24:36 I've got to respect They're Timeline. And what matters to them. They have entrusted me with their capital.

1:24:45 I will do Everything within my power. And I will make sure I give them What they require in return. That's the deal.

1:24:55 And to do that The most likely outcome. Is to be a public company. I do think though that It's healthy.

1:25:04 For a company to have outside shareholders. At some point it's healthy for a company to be public. It Fosters. Good governance.

1:25:15 But a company as it scales and as it grows and matures, it's not just about a founder, it's about Everyone it's about all the stakeholders, your employees. You have Greater responsibility. It's

1:25:29 easier to take that responsibility as a public company. So I'm pro the public route. Personally? But that's Not to say it's for everyone.

1:25:39 If I own this компані one hundred percent my self Maybe I would have taken a different view. Josh said something to me earlier today, just as thinking about how to structure our conversation. Which was really nice, which was that You're an incredibly unique combination of creative and commercial.

1:25:54 And that actually the fact that you can do both so well probably leads to more interesting outcomes on both sides of the equation. Product, marketing, business, etc. And I feel like our conversation today has been so chock full of things I'm scribbling down constant notes here. that I wanna remind myself to go back to and learn from and apply to what I'm trying to do, because that's what I want to do too. Everyone wants to do is to be creative and commercial. They want both sides of the equation. So I'm so thankful for your time and an amazing conversation.

1:26:22 The Same question I ask everyone at the end of these is what is the kindest thing that anyone's ever done for you? I Um Very grateful.

1:26:32 that I was able to move The United States. In my Late thirties. And has had

1:26:42 the ability to Reinvent myself. In this country. And Having

1:26:50 Another chapter. In this country. It's a country and a community That has

1:26:59 Welcome мі, my, my family. And allowed us to be Both successful, but also a member of our more direct community. In a way. That couldn't happen on

1:27:13 Any other place. On earth. А доновість. I pay. A lot of taxes in return.

1:27:23 But I'm incredibly grateful for that opportunity and That's why I'm optimistic about the future. I'm optimistic. About this country. I am

1:27:34 Not fearful. Even though I understand Why many people are Personally. I'm just excited to be part and live for this time.

1:27:43 In human history, which is Arguably the greatest time in history to be alive. I think you're the first person to say America as your answer ever, which is so cool. I have to ask one follow-up. Can you describe Emma's superpower? She has An ability

1:28:02 To bring it. Everybody with her. Me, myself included, I go along with everything she says. Now that's not that unique in a marriage. Most of us go along. With what we're told, but

1:28:14 She has this. Unbelievable ability to inspire people and bring people with her. It's exciting to be around her. I think everybody's around her. has that feeling. It's Intoxicating. So

1:28:27 It's a remarkable quality. I wish I had. A fraction of it, but They say you marry someone that compliments you, so She's the charm.

1:28:35 Yes, this has been amazing. Such a cool conversation. Thanks so much for your time. Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it. Thanks, man. If you enjoyed this episode, visit joincolossis.com where you'll find every episode of this podcast complete with hand-edited transcripts You can also subscribe to Colossus Review, our quarterly print, digital, and private audio publication featuring in-depth profiles of the founders, investors, and companies that we admire most. Learn more at joincolossus dot com slash subscribe.

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