Transcript

Employers adapt to ICE raids and a workforce on edge

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Some parts of the administration would like to deport up to a million people by the end of this year and uh uh two point two million by the end of uh next year. So yeah. That that's who's picking our food, who is taking care of our American elders, and who's building our homes. Right. And so if the level of removal is achieved, I mean that's gonna impact every single American citizen, whether we realize it or not.

2:09 That's Rebecca She, Executive Director of the American Immigration Coalition. I wanted to talk with Rebecca about the controversy over ICE's immigration raids at workplaces across the US. Rebecca takes us through the looming impact on the US workforce, plus the internal conflict within the Trump administration over deportation, and how business leaders are pressing the White House and lawmakers for alternate solutions. Rebecca also explains why counterintuitively right now offers a rare moment of opportunity to update US immigration policy. Her insights manage to be both eye-opening and optimistic, so let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response. I'm Bob Safian. I'm here with Rebecca Shee, Executive Director of the American Business Immigration Coalition. Rebecca, thanks for joining us.

3:08 Thanks, Bob. It's great to see you. Soup. For our listeners, can you explain what the American Business Immigration Coalition is, uh when it came together and and why? Yeah, so ABIC, we are a bipartisan coalition of 1,700 employers and CEOs around the country, representing agriculture, healthcare, long-term care, construction, hospitality, manufacturing, and technology, really any and all sectors. That depend on immigrants as their workforce, as entrepreneurs. And our goal is to advocate for common sense immigration solutions that both ensures a managed secure border, but also supports a legal and stable workforce to keep our economy competitive.

3:58 This year has seen a dramatic change in immigration policy, including a a major increase in immigration rates, people arrested in public, at work. ICE says it's arrested thirty thousand people in June alone, which was a record in the last five years. How does your coalition view This change in policy, this change in activity, what's been your response? It's been a really uncertain um and anxiety inducing time for employers and especially our smaller mom and pop, uh local farmers, restaurant owners. So you know if they are looking for somebody who's a violent criminal, was convicted, MS thirteen, they shouldn't be in the community. Um but as we know and FBI's own data shows that um immigrants by and large are law abiding and they're working. And so

4:51 Employers and ABIC, we've dedicated an enormous amount of time and energy and lobbying efforts to try to change the law so that we can actually have a modern and legal immigration system um that can benefit both employers but everyday Americans. I mean the the number of undocumente immigrants who came to the US during the Biden administration w was unprecedented, right? I mean it was a huge wave. The the Impetus to address that does does Apic object to that or just sort of how it's being done?

5:26 The American public and employers are in the same boat that they don't like a chaotic, disorderly, unmanaged um border, and that we have to restore some type of sanity. And you know, President Trump has secured the border. Um, you know, last week border. crossings are down by 99.5% from a year ago. So the border is secure. And that's why as employers, and we're working with both sides of Congress right now, and you know we're reasonably encouraged by what the president has actually said that we can't just deport everybody because nobody's gonna be picking our food or preparing. Um, you know, our favorite dishes, we're caring for our, you know, elderly American citizens, um, but that we have to have a balanced approach and that includes a legal work permit for people that are working, they're law abiding, they're paying taxes. And um, so there's just got to be a balanced approach here. the style of uh immigration enforcement has changed with National Guard mobilized and like proliferation of these sort of masks and and other identity shields. I I mean enforcing the law is is laudable and and appropriate, but these tactics seem like they send

6:40 Other kinds of messages too. Exactly. And and I think we're seeing it in the polls. I mean the polling in the last uh few weeks and we actually did some polling ourselves that says like look, Americans su support a secure border and deporting violent criminals. Um, but you know, if you're talking about somebody getting picked up at at a work site and and is vetted, is law abiding, those people shouldn't be deported. And over um sixty percent of the American public don't believe this type of uh enforcement only approach is is the right way. Some workers They're gonna stay home or skip work because they're they're s they're scared of these raids or or or of ICE. Yeah, we're we're seeing this in North Carolina. We have an a member US military certified uh manufacturers of parachutes. He had to lay off um, you know, about fifty of his workers because their legal work permits have ended. That has caused him to reduce um the number of parachutes.

7:41 that he's able to manufacture for the US military. And he's also um you know found that it's having an incredible impact on his American born workers. People even if they themselves um are legal are worried about uh their co workers worried about their neighbors or their family members who can be grabbed and detained and deported one day. I'm curious. Uh do you have advice for for what measures business leaders can take

8:11 'Cause he y they can't say with certainty that like You know, it's safe for people to come to work. And they like they never they never know if Ice is gonna take Whoever they're gonna take. That's correct. And people were reading in the stories about even, you know, US citizens being mistakenly um detained. And so the the fear is real. I mean what we advise with employers and you know we have a employer what we call it rights and responsibility uh training program in the event of an ICE visit or an I audit or you know um enforcement actions to make sure that you're calm and you're respectful with the ICE officers, um, that you do have both the rights and the responsibility to allow 72 hours.

8:54 um before you hand in you know documents like I nines and that you take that time to really do a self audit, a self assessment. Um sometimes it might might not even be an immigration issue. It may be that you know you incorrectly f uh filled out um page nine of the I9 form, right? And so that's something very simple that you can correct. At the end of the day, uh Congress has to step up and fix this issue. We have brought members of Congress from both um both aisles to workplaces and job sites so that they can visit And really take the time to understand that your workforce needs and your challenges and your members of Congress can be advocates for you, you know, with the Department of Homeland Security, with the administration, um, and and and really be able to achieve some meaningful solutions and not just this enforcement only, you know, remove them all approach. The last time our immigration system was uh updated was 1986. You know, we didn't have the internet. We didn't nobody talked about AI, right? And so it's just an incredibly outdated uh policy um that's we're trying to jam into a modern um economy.

10:03 And so it is time, you know, for this administration and for Congress to really step up and fix this so that it is aligned, you know, with um the economy of twenty twenty five. There is a a new legislative effort, the Dignity Act, to reset immigration policy. Can you explain what it what it would do? Is it is it a Good solution? Is it a a likely solution? First, it does provide a path to legal status and a work permit for people that have been here at least five years, they're working, they're paying taxes, they're law abiding, they have to be vetted in order to get this legal status and work permit. It has 2 members of Congress, 10 Republicans.

10:45 Ten democrats um working together to push This forward. There are provisions in this bill that's uncomfortable for both sides. It has border security, it has asylum reforms. So Uh it is something we're we're very encouraged about and I know the the sponsors have um been um active in terms of talking to the administration to get their support. To pass a big immigration reset is like that that is a tall order. I mean, there's a reason that we haven't had any legislation since nineteen eighty six, right?

11:18 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean b both sides have kicked this tan down the road and also have rather um politic, um and then them making solutions. I mean, this issue has really been held h hostage by the extremes of both sides. Um I think a couple of things that makes me optimistic in this moment. Um one is that voters are really, really fed up Um, in terms of how chaotic the system is. Um and then I think the second thing is that the border is secure. I mean, I've been working on this for nearly two decades, and m I just the number of times members of Congress, you know, particularly on the Republican side, have said, Hey, we can't do anything. Can't do anything for the dreamers, for the farm workers, for like these groups that are very, very popular even, or H1B or tech workers. Um, why? It's because the the border needs to be secured first. And the border is secured now, right? The president has secured a border. And so that makes you know me more optimistic. Let's work, you know, on the other steps.

12:20 Um that can secure our workforce as well. Mm. Yeah, I mean the the the president hasn't just sort of declared victory. I mean there's still new money that was that was allocated recently for more border security, which If if I'm hearing you right, may not actually be what's needed at this point. Yeah, so um the one hundred seventy five billion dollars from the big beautiful bill, um uh for uh detention centers, uh beds, uh high hiring additional ICE officers to detain and arrest immigrants. We know that um, you know, internally

12:55 Some parts of the administration would like to deport up to a million people by the end of this year and uh 2.2 million by the end of uh next year. And that's extremely concerning for us because you know when you think about it, the undocumentewors is it's really only about one percent of the our entire uh American workforce. So it's very small, but in f certain sectors, so agri agriculture over 40 percent. of our farm workers are undocumente, construction over thirty percent. And then um for elder care, long term care, there's about twenty to thirty percent of those uh health care aids um are are undocumented. So you know that that's who's picking our food. Um, who is taking care of our American elders and who's building our homes, right? And so um If the level of removal is achieved, I mean that's gonna impact

13:53 every single American citizen, whether we realize it or not. And so, you know, groceries prices going up, American elderly not being cared for, and housing prices going up. And that's not something, you know, I know the president doesn't want that headed into a competitive midterms. As you talk about this, it sort of sounds like well for business continuing at the pace that we're that we're going at with enforcement maybe isn't what's best for the business. Uh to what extent do you find that business leaders are um wary about expressing this concern about immigration policy to the White House. They sort of fear of becoming a target if they speak out.

14:32 Yeah. I mean I think businesses are are worried and they're worried about um planning, but I would say that Businesses. At the height of the enforcement that we saw the last few months, like when there was a quota of three thousand people removed a day. I know that businesses. Did um make outreach to the White House. Some of them were able to get to the president directly, you know, to the smaller farms and hotels have talked to the Republican members of Congress, and sort of this chorus of voices from the business community, whether it was privately or some of them were public.

15:08 It did lead to the president in seven different incidents at cabinet meetings, um at press conferences, or you know, at the Iowa um Fourth of July celebration, the president said, Look, I see these ice, aggressive ice rates are hurting. our farms and restaurants and hotels I'm hearing from the businesses so I'm telling Піподаста. And um I'm moving forward on the legal work permit program. And so um and that was a direct a result of of businesses um speaking up about the situation. I mean we've seen A a lot of back and forth within the administration on sort of easing rules and ice raids, right, for for

15:50 For farm workers, for the hospitality industry, different statements from different parts of the administration. The White House, Homeland Security, Department of Labor, of Agriculture. Where does all that stand? I mean, can employ or workers trust that that any announcement will stick? That's an excellent question. And there is a clear internal struggle within the White House um on this policy. And we want more words. Of legal work permits from the president. At the end of the day, Congress has to legislate. There is only so much they can do by executive order, and then we're caught up in this back and forth and all these legal fights. And so Congress has to step up at this moment. What our polling show last week was really interesting, that the fact that the president has said several times about um a legal work permit program does give the cover for Congress um to move forward because the president said it um the Republican primary base are are with him at 78%

16:53 Um, and you know, then you see also Hispanic voter growth up to eighty three percent uh for this type of balance approach. In some ways, President Trump faces a classic innovators dilemma. He's arguably solved the border security crisis, but looking at how voter sentiment has shifted in the face of mass deportations, he may need to pivot to a new strategy. In the meantime, how is the US workforce adjusting and what might the economic impacts be for American born workers? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

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18:54 Before the break, Rebecca Shee of the American Immigration Coalition talked about how business leaders are quietly pressing the Trump administration to pull back on its aggressive enforcement and deportation efforts. Now she talks about the economic pros and cons of undocumented workers, why American-born workers could pay the price for mass deportations, and what makes her optimistic about the future. Let's jump back in. Your own family story is Part of the

19:26 motivation for for your work. Your mother was an undocumented worker for for many years as as I understand it. Y and you yourself came to the United States as an immigrant. Well like What was needed So that your family could have you know, safely lived and worked here together.

19:47 Yeah, so um I came when I was ten years old, um, and um my father is a US citizen and then I quickly became a uh US citizen and um my mom um struggled with her legal status while I was growing up and she was a doctor in China. So for twenty five years when she didn't have legal status, she was working in restaurants and then she had a second job taking care of um elderly in the nursing homes. And she just I just remember she worked all the time. Like she was, you know, making sure that that she was you know, helping me and then you know, pay my college and um, but when she got her green card and she was 61 years old, um, she the first thing she did was she's applied to like 10 different jobs at the hospital to uh for her uh profession. And she ended up running a laboratory uh directing twenty other histologists and she was helping patients with ulcer, cancer, and later COVID and just

20:51 Loved it. I and it just shows that um you know, when you legalize people who are already contributing, you just unleash their economic potential. And that's good for all of us. This country's uh relationship with immigration is so complicated because Course we we all came here as immigrants at different times in different ways and and it's been a great Advantage to the businesses and the economy of the US.

21:16 to have sort of fresh you know, young often uh talent be be part of it and yet there's also this anxiety, this fear that uh that, you know, new people are gonna take away what we have. Yeah. How do you square that?

21:33 Those those two different sides of this. If look at history, um, the last time that our immigration levels uh push fifteen nineteen percent was in you know the nineteen um like tens. And around that time was also um there was huge backlash and the economy wasn't doing well. And so then um the Chinese exclusion act was passed and you know for nearly fifty, sixty years up until the um the voting rights act of nineteen sixty five, um, there was almost zero um immigration. So uh that number of foreign born was reduced to about three, four percent. Um and you know, we kinda s experienced the same thing. The last few years when for the first time our foreign born population pushed up to 18, 19%. And we are experiencing a similar backlash. But again, we are in the economy of 2025.

22:26 And no longer in nineteen sixty five. So we really should have a different response. We saw the jobs report last week. Um, right, and and the job of growth in in July is seventy-four thousand. And you know, nearly all economists say that we need at least a hundred thousand um jobs created in order just to keep this economy moving. And the main reason is because we're short about a million workers. um over this last four months. People who have either been detect detained or deported, or people that just for fear of being sent to a different country have self deported, right? And so um it is something that we're we're gonna um have to deal with head on, but I think Um, we'll we're you know encouraged by what the president has said recently, and he's a businessman, he knows the workforce that requires and to your point that the the hung of of immigrants and foreign born is necessary for any company or any economy to be fully competitive. In all the news about immigration raids

23:25 we we don't hear very much about employers facing consequences for for hiring people without proper documentation. Why is that? Might might that change with more onus being put on businesses? I think you're starting to see that change. Um, so there was a large array at a meat processing plant in Nebraska. And um that uh prop meat processor actually was e-verify compliant. It, you know, he did e-verify and Ice came and detained about and and removed about ninety workers. Um and You know, his response and and he is right, the C verify system as is is a really flawed system. Sometimes it will mistaken people's names, catch people that are US citizens, or just completely misidentifies people. It's important to recognize that one of the m reasons, m key reasons, drivers of why immigrants are in this country is because somebody gave them a job. And so um it is one of the reasons why, you know, our coalition and our employers have really taken upon themselves that to really push for a solution that they can come out of the shadows and

24:34 And and work legally, and that's actually good and protects every American worker when we don't have a second class system, when we don't have a easily exploitable group of people because they're in the shadows and living in fear. You ensure the you know their rights. Um and wages are protected not just for them, but for every American worker as well. Mm. AB came together looking for sort of a lasting long term reform to immigration policy. And I just I

25:06 I've wonder like is that possible in an environment that's so charged? And I know you're optimistic about it, but like why Why is this all so hard? Free Um I think it's hard because it's easy to play up the fears. Um and it's easy.

25:24 Um to blame, to point you know fingers but I think At the same time, the majority of Americans, you know, do believe in steps forward, and especially for people that have been here and have earned that legal status, um that you know, the everyday American is a lot smarter than the professional politicians. Right, that they don't need all or nothing. Something like a legal work permit, like the president has said, um, is something that's that's broadly Support it. Um, and then I think the other piece is just that you know politicians for some of them have to run every two years. And so it's like very easy, right, to run and add um calling something amnesty even when it isn't, um, to try to, you know, score cheap political points.

26:14 So what's at stake? From here. For for for businesses, you know, for all of us. lot of research has been done that this enforcement only approach this you know removal. Um

26:30 Say up to a million people. uh a year uh can cost the economy um it's a hit of three hundred and fifty billion dollars. It's about, you know Up to three and half percentage in terms of job and GDP. Um, it also can also translates up to two point five million job losses for American workers. The work that immigrants do and Americans do are are tend to be complimentary. Um, you know, immigrants are say like milking a dairy cow. Well Well uh American uh workers are the foreman or the managers of the farm in the restaurant, the immigrants are the bus boys, or they're washing the dishes, and Americans prefer roles. You know, at the front of the house in terms of waitressing or hosting, or they're the bartending. Right. And so then when you remove that back of the house where there isn't sufficient labor in the back of the house, that inf impacts um the work of of everyday Americans. And then the other thing is just inflationary and and food prices and

27:29 You know, we had a dairy farmer that in Wisconsin to talk to his neighbors about like look, if they continue down this road, um, the cost of milk, um are you willing to pay thirty dollars a gallon? Um, or even worse, um, are we okay with milk not being domestically produced and having to be imported. So I think that those those are some of the some of the consequences that we we might face. The pendulum on things like immigration tend to swing from one end to the other. You know, and uh

28:04 Certainly during the Biden administration, maybe the doors were open too much, maybe the doors are closed too much now. Like w where do you feel like the pendulum is right now? Um I think the it is swung to the other way. And um and I think Americans the like the latest Gallup show poll showing that Americans welcome immigrants or finding immigrants, um you know, more favorable at seventy nine percent, which is the highest since the pandemic, since we called you know immigrant workers essential, um, because they were, you know, when the rest of us could quarantine safely and they were still working and picking crops. Um so yeah, I think it's it's the um the Amer

28:45 The American attitude is is definitely a reaction um to the current um more restrictive uh policies. And um and I think that bowls well too for solutions that does give uh you know some cover and support for particularly, you know, republicans and um and and the administration to move forward, especially if they want to keep power um in twenty twenty six. And so you you don't you're not uh relying on the Democrats retaking uh power to be able to get these uh these changes through. Well in the last you know eight twenty some years I've been at this democrats had full c control of

29:23 both chambers and the White House three times. And Yeah. Nothing was done. And um and and you know, same with Republicans, right? Like the also Republicans have had their chance um to get something done and and and we haven't. And we we see this president having um just incredible influence over the Congress. And um so Um think employers will will keep pushing.

29:48 Yeah. Well um Rebecca, this has been great. Thank you so much for doing it. Thanks for the conversation.

29:59 Coming away from my conversation with Rebecca, I was struck by how simple she makes the issue of US immigration sound. While administration after administration have struggled to make headway, Rebecca manages to channel an empathic perspective to find a common sense middle ground. I know that I've struggled personally about immigration. I don't believe in totally open borders, but I do think attracting talent from around the world is incredibly valuable to the US economy. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't deeply concerned by the raids and mass deportations. As business leaders, we pride ourselves on solving naughty challenges. To maintain a healthy US workforce, We probably need to talk plainly about immigration, as Rebecca and her members are doing.

30:46 When any topic is politicized, it can get messy. To avoid it, we need no nonsense clarity. I'm Bob Sapian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original.

31:05 I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashimaku Tonina. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastanelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcast is Lytal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponesshow.com.