Transcript

Trump’s chilling effect on big business, with Harvard Business Review’s Adi Ignatius

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1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. Twenty six. Suddenly, you know, we can't criticize the government. Right.

1:41 That's really sad. You know, you could talk about whether CEO speaking up on an issue, whether that's a good idea or not, but the idea that that well they wouldn't dare in this climate because it's too scary, you know. That's That's China under the Communist Party. I mean that's somehow Uh an unintended consequence of where we are right now. That's Adi Ignatius, longtime editor in chief of Harvard Business Review. After 16 years at the helm, Adi recently passed the mantle, but today's episode is much more than an exit interview.

2:19 It is an eye-opening strategic examination of today's unprecedented business climate, from AI's impact to Elon Musk, to the evolving role of what it means to be a business leader. Adi is refreshingly candid, sharing lessons and unfiltered assessments. I think it's one of the most important insightful episodes we've done, so let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is rapid response

2:50 I'm Bob Safe and I'm here with Adi Ignatius, the longtime editor in chief of Harvard Business Review, and an old colleague and friend. Adi, great as always to chat with you. Nice to nice to be on with you. Uh thanks for doing this. You and I first worked together at Time magazine is executive editors, you have then ran H V R for more than fifteen years before turning over the reins to Amy Bernstein earlier this year. Is it a bittersweet moment passing the mantle? Or are you content? I know I had mixed feelings about leaving fast company. So yes and no. I mean it's you know it it it's nice to be editor in chief. Um

3:26 I reached a point in my career though where I didn't want to have direct report. uh sitting in meetings with the board. Yeah, I realized what I needed at this moment in my life was to get back to The reason we all got into this profession in the first place. To write, to report, to create content. So I have I definitely have a pep in my step and yes, I miss some of the trappings of

3:49 power, but I I'm really I'm really happy with the shift. You've covered so many Seminal, like tumultuous moments, wars, 911, market collapses, regime changes. Twenty twenty five, the current climate, it feels like we're At a threshold, even though it's not quite

4:07 Cataclysmic. Uh do you have a A a a a thought, a feeling about about what we've seen so far in twenty twenty five. So there are some indexes that tract fear. The track fear. You know, and the fear index has been kind of off the charts in ways that it had only been during the the kind of early peak of of COVID and during the financial collapse of two thousand eight. So you know, to the extent we can measure something, yeah, we're we're in a a strange moment. I

4:37 I don't mean to make a you know, much of a plug for HBR, but you know, we've just launched a new product called HBR Executive, which is very much leaning into the fact that this you know, it's always hard at the top, but this is a really difficult moment to lead. Partly because AI is out there and it's gonna disrupt us all and we're not sure. when and we're not sure how or how much, but it will. So that huge uncertainty there. And then the the so maybe what you're hitting at the kind of political and geopolitical uncertainty that is just off the charts and really makes it difficult. So our point is is you know not just to say it's uncertain out there, folks, but to say it's uncertain out there and there's things we've never seen before. But

5:17 We have lived through moments in the past of of enormous uncertainty and there are ways to lead through it. And we will try to share some of those best practices. Do you have a a a framework or a philosophy about how You personally think about Change. So if they're two big

5:36 uncertainties now. And let's say technology, but especially AI and then the geopolitics. Um I think with AI you know, I so I mean I'm I'm not an expert on on anything, but I I talk to a lot of people and you know Kareem Lakani at HBS, who's really an expert on

5:56 uh you know AI, generative AI in the workplace. I mean his his big thought is that CEOs are talking about AI all the time. They're talking to their boards, they're talking to their shareholders, they're sounding knowledgeable. And He says in fact they're not. They're not most COs are not even remotely knowledgeable. And that it's really important that they They get that.

6:16 threshold of kind of competence and understanding. Because you know, if you're in the camp that thin AI is truly going to change everything and I I I am until You know, then the transformation needs to be Driven from the top, so it needs to be understood. You know, from the top. So the technology technological part is you've got to get involved and it has to be CEO driven.

6:37 With politics and geopolitics, I mean You know in a sense you have to have your own Foreign policy, right? Every company needs to really pay attention and think there's so much baloney coming out of Washington. But then some of it sticks, right? Some of it is not bluster, but is actually six significant. So uh I think You know, having

6:55 Be uh either connecting with people who know or having people on your team who really know and know how to kind of tease Out. what's real versus what's not real, what you need to panic about, what you don't need to panic about. It's really essential. So you can't just sit back and try to follow the news cycle because the news cycles are are Insane, right? And and and not helpful. So I think those are a couple things, uh a couple ways to think about it. I mean, there's a lot of scenario planning. I talked to a Brazilian CEO today, right? So they're suddenly threatened with, you know, enormous

7:25 uh uh levels of tariffs that are Purely personal. Brazil has a trade deficit with the US, and yet, you know, Trump is threatening them with enormous terrorists. It's purely Personal. political. You know, he doesn't like Lula and he liked Bolsonaro and he's trying to try to kind of manipulate Brazilian.

7:45 politics and and how its Supreme Court works. So you know, what do you do with that? So this CEO, they are doing a bunch of scenario planning if tariffs come in at fifty percent, if they come in at half that, if they come in at ten percent, and they're not sure what else to do,'cause it is just enormously uncer uncertain. Mm. Well, and I I guess all these institutions have to Uh d develop the capacity to be more flexible than maybe they've needed to be before because things are so Unstable, right? Which I guess AI maybe provides an opportunity.

8:18 To do. If you if you can get your organization to handle it the right way. I guess. Um You know, we live we live through a p I mean, it's not like this is this is the worst time in the history of the world. It's definitely not. There have been Periods that were, you know, much more uncertain because there was broader global war, et cetera. Okay. But we had a kind of you know post-World War Two.

8:41 order and predictability that obviously had winners and losers and they were you know Terrible tragedies along the way. But y you know, th th there was a basic, I don't know, rules based order, at least, you know, in the West, and you kind of knew what to expect. So now you don't. And the US has a president that Doesn't like

9:01 rules based order. So you've you've lost a certain reliability or dependability on what America, the world's most powerful country stands for and will be uh you know advocating for. So it's it's it's tough. It's slippery. And and you know, I know the knee jerk thing is to say, well, China's the big winner. Um And I think it's important to really analyze that. But I think it's possible China's the big winner. Um as the

9:29 You know, kind of global economy and global You know. Trade. protocol is restructured. I think a lot of this could be to China's benefit. For our listeners' benefit, you you spent a fair amount of time in China. You were Wall Street Journal Bureau Chief in Beijing, you ran Time Asia. You were also

9:46 bureau chief in Moscow. So you you've you've been in s uh inside some of these places that people are trying to figure out right now. Are are there Ways that you think people understand or misunderstand what's going on in China, what's going on in Russia, and what the impact is gonna be on us. So Americans I think by and large misunderstand China. Americans by and large are not comfortable with the repressions that exist in China with a sort of strongman government and you know that that's all fine.

10:17 Um China is booming. I mean, you know, you go to a Chinese city and it is y you feel, wow, I'm in the future and America's not in the future. Right. I think there's some people who associate the repression in China with a sense that people are are listless and want to overthrow their government or unhappy and it, you know, it it you know couldn't be farther from from the truth. I mean, you know, it China is boomy. Uh, you know, if you think about where the US is moving away from sort of cleaner fuels, you know, China has its its, you know, foot on the accelerator. I mean it is it is really

10:52 Dynamic. Not just big cities, big buildings, but uh you know developing a kind of The future economy. And we're still in a the sort of fossil fuels past. So uh so I so I think there's a there's a general misunderstanding of just how

11:07 how rich and developed and dynamic China is, even though it has enormous problems, including unemployment, including, you know, fiscal issues. It's not Certainly not perfect, but I but I I think that's a misunderstanding. Russia, I mean, God, Russia has squandered opportunities to develop its economy since the fall of the Soviet Union. I mean, really you know, has so many resources and the the ability to to be an economic player and instead is just fall a victim to corruption and and sort of stupid wars. Um

11:38 I think that's pretty well understood. You posted something. Early this year, around the time of the World Economic Forum, about Davos man as compared to what you called Mar-a-Lago Man. Do you do you remember this? Yeah yeah yeah. So I was trying to capture so I mean Bob, you think about this stuff all the time. You know, so so there was

12:00 Let's say there was fifty years of kind of Milton Friedman sort of dominated. uh philosophy to management and basically you know Shareholders or Or

12:11 what matter and and you you could just measure that and if if if managers are also aligned to to benefit If the share price goes up, then that's great. Then your your shareholders and your managers are aligned and you know, the other stuff will fall into place. And then, you know, ten years ago, whatever, suddenly people got more serious talking about stakeholders more broadly. That it's just it's not enough to worry about share price. You have to think about your employees and your customers and sustainability, the planet. And and that seemed pretty entrenched. Although I'd I'd say

12:44 the world was searching for the kind of theory, right? That was as simple or or as as easy to grasp as a sort of Friedman esque. Focus on the the share price. HBR, uh we wrote lots about stakeholder capitalism and and uh You know, it kinda became that's what they were teaching at Harvard Business School and that's what

13:05 Ever you know, everybody in Davos was talking about You know, it y y you need to worry more about your bottom. than just about your bottom line, the share price. Uh and then Trump got elected. So that's why I wrote this piece on Davos Man, and this is defining Davos Man as

13:21 you know, elite businessmen, but who also gets, you know. Whatever. They're listening to their kids or or whatever outside pressure, but they understand Yeah, they have to think about The externalities they're creating. They have to think about the planet. They have to think about some social issues and not just the bottom line. And then Mar-a-Lago man. You know, is is now in ascendance.

13:43 And Yeah, in some ways. I I Mark Andreessen gave an interview, I think, to the New York Times that it it's worth reading'cause'cause he's just really articulate in in in speaking about kind of this new wave, you know, sort of like Mark Zuckerberg saying, you know, more masculine energy. And you know, so Andreessen just says things like Why would y why would I want people to bring their whole selves to work?

14:05 Like why is that good? And that's been such a 10 like we've for a decade we've been saying, you want your employees engaged. Let them bring their wholesales to work. So so that's being questioned. So the the point of the article I wrote is that to the extent to which like you should have values as a company. That Don't Flip flop with every election.

14:24 Right. You should figure out what they are and then you stick to them. Hell or high water. And if it's just performative, then uh okay, get rid of them. You know, that's fine. But but you have to figure out what your values are and they cannot just be Yeah.

14:40 twist in the in the political calculation. No, and we and I think we have we have seen that because the the pressure Trump is putting on leaders to like, you're either committed to this or or you're gonna go away, whether it's, you know, DEI or you know, whatever, immigration policy or something else, right? Like what do you really believe in That is What it what did Ken Frazier the the former Merc CEO said to me, you know, their principles and then their preferences, right? And if if you're not gonna pay a little cost for something, then it's really just a preference. And don't don't turn it into a principle if it if it's not something, you know, you're willing to have it cost you a little bit.

15:19 Yeah, no, that's well put. And I look I I feel for CEOs now who don't want to be in the crosshairs of of this is administration'cause they They could make life difficult for you as they could make life difficult for politicians to stand in their way. But You know, I mean there is a search for an alternative. I mean I talked to a a Silicon Valley CEO recently. Who you know Silicon Valley

15:41 Yeah. You know, COs there don't have the same political belief. There's certainly a a strong libertarian, um uh strain there. But this was a guy who said you have to understand. We were Deep.

15:52 Blue. Right. This is this is this CEO and his cohorts, right? In the tech world. We were deep blue. And then they you know they got pissed off with with regulation and and you know didn't like Biden's appointments and thought Biden was unfriendly to business and to mergers and things like that. Okay, fine. You know, that's that's a perception. And he said we became deep red and we were excited about Trump. We were excited that Mus was gonna be doing the Doge thing. We were excited about, you know, Lut that can trade. Like we are excited. And then The administration began and there was this, you know, incredible uncertainty with all this tariff stuff that just made it hard to lead a business.

16:28 And then more than that, the the immigration thing, it made it really difficult to to bring engineers in, you know, even from Yeah. Forget China, but from India. So So you know, these are guys who flip deep blue to deep red and are now having buyers remorse. Uh and the extent to which I look, I I think who you know whoever wins the next election will have to have a platform that is somehow

16:54 appealing to business. You know, I I mean you know, the Biden administration. I mean, there were parts of it that almost seemed cartoonishly anti business. You know, they're bad and rapacious and you know, I I look I believe in regulation, of course, but But you know. I I there has to be a middle ground. You cannot lose business and hope to

17:13 Prevail I think in this country. You You mentioned this that serve a lot of A lot of business leaders just sort of kinda kinda wanna keep their heads down right now.

17:22 Do CEOs wish they could be more outspoken or you know, it it is speaking out like bravery, or is it just like foolishness at this point? I love this topic'cause You know, if you go back a generation. Yeah, CEOs didn't

17:40 political issues and social issues. Like why would they? That would be crazy. And then with the rise of the internet, um There was this sort of truism and I feel like I said it many times that CEOs Don't have the option. of not speaking, right?'Cause you know, their employees

17:58 want to know where they stand on these important social and political issues. Their customers want to know. If you decide I'm just gonna stay silent, the internet, you know, X will interpret your silence. However, it wants to, and it might be negative. So you have no choice. You have to jump in to the fray. And I I we wrote articles and I've said that that that was sort of the new reality. Well

18:23 Maybe not, right? Targets. problems, Bud Light. I mean there were there were attempts to get involved in social issues that really backfire that made made I think companies think twice about what they're doing. I guess where we've landed is That um Again, it you know, y figure out what your real values are and if there are issues that really

18:43 Touch. your business directly or your You know. I don't know, the values that you stand for. Then then yes, you you you cannot be silent. But but this idea that you have to weigh in or you're Employees will get mad. I I think we've rethought that.

19:00 Part of what a appealed to me about your framing of Davos Man versus Mar-a-Lago Man. Like Davos Man is sort of CEO as as statesman. In in a lot of ways, right? And and and right now, sort of CEOs and business leaders are a little bit like, Hm, I I I I don't know whether I I want to be a statesman, but not if I have to deal with some of the garbage that goes with being a statesman. I feel like the United States s s sort of overnight became China. Right, where You know,

19:30 You you you have this Tremendous ability to do what you want. As a business. But suddenly you know we can't Criticized the government.

19:40 Yeah because there will be a tremendous backlash and I might lose my you know, the that's That's China. That's that's authoritarianism. And I uh you know, I'm not saying anybody has stated that as a policy, but that's how it's rippling through. And you know, that That's really sad. You know, you could talk about whether CEOs speaking up on an issue, whether that's a good idea or not, or whether their their statements are good or not. But the idea that that well they wouldn't dare in this climate because it's too scary, you know. That's That's China under the communist party. I mean that's somehow

20:13 Uh an unintended consequence of where we are right now. Adi doesn't mince his words. Some CEOs I've spoken to are relieved that there's less pressure to speak out on things that, frankly, they weren't particularly comfortable speaking on in the first place. On the other hand, other CEOs are mourning the loss of exercising their pulpit. As with much of what Adi and I discuss about 2025, it's an evolution that could progress or regress from here. So what signals does Adi keep his eyes on, and how does he feel about Trump's attack on Harvard, where HBR is, of course, based? We'll talk about that, Elon Musk, and Adi's most important leadership lessons after the break. Stay with us.

21:04 Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday we release a second rapid response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's gonna be two types of companies.

21:46 Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered. I'm Rana El Calyubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives.

22:19 Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Before the break, Adi Ignatius of the Harvard Business Review shared what Americans most misunderstand about China, why business leaders aren't speaking out against Trump, and more. Now we dig into AI, Elon Musk, and Harvard's response to Trump's attacks. Let's jump back in. Have to ask you about

22:48 Uh Harvard's. with the Trump administration. We work at Harvard, of course. What's the feeling at the institution? Yeah, I mean I look I cannot I can't speak for Harvard. I'm not involved in any of these conversations.

23:02 There's soul searching at Harvard, certainly. I mean if if If there are charges of of let's say anti s anti Semitism coming from anywhere, you have to take that seriously and not dismiss that and figure out, all right, you know, ha have we created a climate for that? And if so, how do we respond? And you know Uh you know, any intelligent institution would take that seriously and and figure out what to do. As a lay person, it seems like this is more personal and and Vindictive?

23:31 Um Then Fact based. Um That for a you know, a kind of

23:38 From a MAGA perspective. Harvard is the enemy, a bunch of mostly liberal experts telling people what to do. Harvard's always been a target. I mean, you know, you You look at clickbait in any, you know. News thing.

23:54 you know, taking down Harvard or Harvard makes a mistake. I mean, you know, the world loves to Loves to read about that'cause it's just it's a symbol of of greatness or liberalness or both. And so if they slip up, it's target. So I will say, having talked to a lot of Harvard alumni Uh it's not universal, but But by and large, and almost everyone I've talked to is is really

24:16 impressed with Alan Garber and with Harvard's response. When the charges of okay, Harvard is anti Semitic came out, there were people who canceled their subscriptions to Harvard Business View saying, Look, I don't want to give money to any any publication that's linked to a you know quote unquote anti Semitic organization. So that was a an initial backlash. You know, now it's very different. If you don't like what Trump is doing, or if you think he has too much power, it's you know, it's king like and that's we're supposed to have the separation of powers. It's like well who will stand up and the lawyers won't stand up and you know, companies we've already talked about are too intimidated. Uh just kind of respond and so okay, you know, Harvard's not caving. Harvard's and who knows where it goes if it ends up

24:57 As a positive thing or a negative thing. But I I do find A lot of a lot of outside support for that. If Harvard's not gonna stand up. To the president.

25:07 you know, what other academic institution would, right? Yeah, and look I you know, I know I heard somebody at UCLA just saying Good for Harvard. We couldn't do that. You know, they can't even pretend they could do that, just with their dependents on on uh You know

25:23 federal money to sort of function as an institution. I mean it's crazy taking away The grant money for For Harvard. I mean, You know, these are grants to solve problems that America has. That

25:35 the the government cannot do. So to to take away that funding. It doesn't hurt Harvard exactly. It hurts Harvard, but it you know, these are You know, the this is meant to be health research or other research that like America needs American citizens need. You're hurting it, Mar I mean, it's just th th there's something truly insane about about this particular battle. Again, speaking as a lay person and not as an insider. Um

26:00 And you know I I think there are few institutions who could imagine standing up and that might depend on the you know, the big endowment that they have that uh enables them. Maybe to to survive these kind of shocks.

26:16 The other uh King in America, I guess, or potential king. Uh It it seemed to be Elon Musk. Right. The other the other guy who seems like he can do whatever whatever he wants with almost n with almost no repercussions, although I I you know, I don't know whether the

26:35 Uh the departure of uh X CEO Lindy Acarino means anything related to You know Whatever. Grox, anti Semitic exchanges. I it's it's it's so hard to follow even with Musk, sort of what's going on, his new political foray. He seems to be in the news every bit as much as Trump. Do you have a perspective on Musk? And I think Musk has been chasing him, I think he's

26:58 Realized his foray into politics has has Cost him. At Tesla, certainly. You know, the the the the damage that is this Is

27:08 facing is pretty directly related to um Some of the perception of of sort of what he's doing that that that was bad for his business. Um I I don't know why he then came back and said, I'm gonna form another political party, you know?

27:24 Uh Uh the polls I've seen seems to be contributing to the sort of negative take on him and Uh on his business. So

27:36 I you know, I I mean even when he took over Twitter, right? I mean it just it it seemed more like he was trolling Himself, maybe? I mean you know it it it Yeah. He so he sort of enjoys playing the role of the troll. It seems like

27:52 More than running a business. More than doing Doge. I mean, you know, that that seems to be really sort of fundamental to his identity. So Even though I think he's been chasing and he's got a board saying, Can you pay a little attention to our business over here? Uh. You know, I think he's he sort of seems incorrigible or just seems to have this

28:10 This desire to kinda Jump in in the most public ways possible. I mean he he's he's a addicted, it seems like, to You know, his ex following and his his ability to kinda kinda troll and get a reaction. I mean it it's it's interesting too for me'cause as a As a business leader, I think he was

28:30 You know. And has been admired and, you know, extolled at about his sort of his vision as a business leader and what he's built and what he sees. And this foray into the government work has sort of It's undercut. Some of that too. So I think about should HP R interview Donald Trump, should HBR interview Elon Musk?

28:50 You know, with Donald Trump, we've decided not to pursue that, and that's a tricky one. I mean, he is the president of the United States and he the President of the United States should presumably have interesting interesting things to say about the economy and about business that would be valuable to readers. But um You know, those interviews go off the rails, right? And uh he you know, you you you're tempted to kind of fact check him and correct him and

29:16 And and and You know. Uh you know, try to demand that he answer the coin that he stay on topic and none of that'll happen. So so you could end up with a very combative Interview and I you know.

29:30 Do I wanna do that? Does Harvard business want to Review want to do that. It might yield headlines. Especially if it got sort of chippy. But would it would it yield any insight? So we've we've declined if Musk agreed to do an interview, I would do that. I think he has some of the same tendencies to sort of

29:50 You know, blow up an interview and and But As you say, I mean he legitimately Uh has been uh kind of amazing business person, right? He's he's he's created or sustained, however you want to look at it.

30:03 Yeah, some some Some really game changing businesses uh and You know, I I'd like to know what's in his brain about what's next. In business.

30:14 I I don't care what he thinks is next. In politics. And I think he thinks we all care about that. You know, I was looking you you recently wrote a a cautionary article about AI and privacy are you an AI advocate or more on the concern side?

30:30 Um, if it's a binary choice, I guess I'm an I'm an advocate. More than uh, you know, we must stop this because of the unintended consequences. I mean y you just listen to the experts and kinda put your finger in the wind and decide okay, the metaverse I kinda bought into that for a while, but then I realized, nah that's not a big deal. This one.

30:50 I think yes. And who knows, right? I mean, you know, we're not experts and and even the experts obviously don't know. Yeah. How AI will evolve or or or how you know, consumer preferences will both. But my my expectation is that we will adopt AI at an enormous scale. Um hopefully you know it it doesn't drive unemployment to scary levels, but good. I mean, you know, I I I think that's a possibility.

31:12 So um You know, uh H VR we're a content creator. It it it I'm I'm angry that All these large language models felt they could just sort of steal our content. And then Ask for forgiveness or not even just sort of say, Well it's different. We're not really you know, uh that's crazy. I mean

31:30 But I I you know, if you're not using AI in your work and life, it's like start doing it. It's not perfect. It's not a fact generating machine, right? There are Yeah, flaws, but the you know, ability of this technology to to do incredible things is

31:47 And I think we'll get better. So Um So I guess I I mean I guess that makes me a an advocate or proponent or Or somebody who's in in awe at the very least.

31:58 And and those of us in the in the media and news business, like the The state of journalism, the state of the news business. I mean It it's in flux, right? Because the the ways we've been I don't know, compensated for the work that is fueling these large language models. Is uh is under pressure.

32:19 People use the phrase Google Zero now, right? I mean we We we we got most of our traffic from Google searches. And uh Now Google, especially with AI, you know, it wants to give you an answer and that's it. And even if Google provides links, I'm not sure Any user wants to follow a link right now, right? You know, sort of the the expectation of of how you retrieve information and get quick quick answers and insight has just sort of changed. So

32:44 You know, our our traffic from Google has just shrunk, shrunk, shrunk. Same with every other media company. And it's not crazy to talk about Google Zero, where we're getting, you know, zero. referrals from Google, which you know, they don't owe that to us, but that was, you know, the main source of of web traffic for for a lot of us. So you know I I I would say for for us and for other media companies, you know, we're trying to create new products like The one I mentioned, HBR executive and and and driving new business. But but I longer term

33:15 I I think we all realize the old model doesn't hold. we have to figure out how to thrive in a world where AI can do a lot of what we do, where it has Yeah, so what does HBR do? We we're we're trying to give people really smart research based advice on their careers and on, you know, business challenges. Um And

33:37 You know, a AI Partly because it scraped all our content. Could do that pretty well. So we have to figure out Okay, so so what is

33:48 So pretty well is pretty well. you know, we can do things better. What does better mean in AI world? You know, marginally better, probably people won't pay for that. Um significantly better, more reliable, that involves more, you know, human interaction and contact. You know, that's the answer is probably there. So

34:08 So we have to know what AI can do and what Parts of our business it could Yeah. Fully disrupt.

34:16 And then figure out how to pivot. From there. I've noticed an an irony that uh in an era where um Uh, let's say some of the places that uh that you and I may have worked may be referred to as fake news. So that the the trust of what journalism does, you know, has gone down. But you get the same source scraped and

34:38 uh emerge to it as a lar from a large language model and there it's trusted. Right. Like it's fake news if it comes from the New York Times, but if it comes from, you know, Chat GPT, you know, that well, that's true. Well that's interesting. So do you think people have that relationship to chat GPT where if they read it on Chat GPT they think I can trust this. I think younger people do. In the same way that I think people trusted that Google search pointed you to the right places, you know? Yeah.

35:06 Yeah, you didn't question it. So let me let me take it like up to thirty thousand feet. You you sixteen years of running HBR. Like, are there lessons that you find yourself coming back to from this experience? The things that you think people most Misunderstand about business or You know, mistakes that you see business people making over and over again. Like we're W what do you find yourself anchoring on?

35:33 Um I think leadership is real. You know, I I I I do think You know, companies can succeed or founder Depending on the quality of leadership and that it's not

35:48 Simply. Genetic. you know, you're charismatic or you're smart or you're not that you can You can learn. Uh you can learn to listen.

35:58 Um, you can learn to uh manage your time. In ways that Take advantage of what you need to do versus what anybody can do. I do believe in that, that there is um There's an ability to

36:14 to you know hone hone hone your skills as a leader. And uh you know, and whether it's from you know, an aphorism from Jack Welch or a you know, a twelve page piece, you know, that has a that has a framework for that, that they're they're ways to learn and really and really improve your game. So so I you know, I do I do believe in that. Um You know the search for

36:36 The kind of Purpose of business. You know what we were talking about before where You know, for fifty years it was all about The share price.

36:46 Um I think we need a new sort of consensus of of the new paradigm. And it you know, it may be that the stakeholder stuff was too too fuzzy or unclear. Um I won't say woke because I I don't think that's I don't think that's a helpful word ever.

37:02 Um But I is their theory the case that That that we can all agree on that what is the responsibility of a company of the CEO.

37:12 And I guess the one other thing is that you know, the soft skills You know, uh H how do you interact with people? I mean the things that that Does it seem to be a little bit more. Sort of basic.

37:24 They really matter and and they matter kind of up and up and down the hierarchy, you know, from the from the CEO down to the lowest levels. Interact with one another. So Um

37:37 No, I I I came to the case. Are you still feeling Optimistic uh uh about the future? Or you are you Are you more optimistic, more anxious, or are you s somewhere in between?

37:53 Yeah. That's a good question for everybody right now. Um So I f I you know, I find myself giving in to this tendency to So bury my head in the sand. You know, where the the barrage of political news is just too much.

38:07 Um One result of that is my tennis game has gotten a lot better. Um I mean, I'm not gonna hide it. I'm I'm a you know a relatively liberal Guy who is

38:20 you know, kind of shocked and amazed by what is happening in this country right now. And um Uh You know. And I I believe in the resilience of the American system. I don't think it's automatic, though.

38:32 You know, you can't just say, Well, we've been resilient for two hundred and fifty years, so we'll be fine. No. I mean I I think at a certain level All of us have to to fight in our own way for what we what we believe in. I certainly don't believe that progress is inevitable. I mean, you know, there is a a New York a New Yorker cartoon to be done that basically shows the world blowing up and

38:53 Somehow a couple of scientists who have survived are saying, But we were making so much progress. Right. I mean, I think, you know Progress, you know, might be illusory in some ways. But you know, I mean Bob, the generation we've grown in has been It you know, in many ways the rise of business around the world, the lifting of of of standards of living and and

39:14 uh life expects you can't help but look at some of those things and think, okay there is a there is a positive trend even if there are a lot of potholes along the way. I guess all we can say is Let's hope so. Yeah, that's the best we could do.

39:28 Well, This was great. Thank you, Bob.

39:34 I always appreciate the time I have with Adi to talk about journalism, but Also for his perspective on business and what it takes to be a leader. I agree with Adi that it feels like we're on a slippery slope these days, as many US institutions capitulate to government demands that until recently seemed unthinkable. I also agree that it's tricky to know what impact an individual business or executive can have in this environment. But I also think that if we're gonna find a new paradigm in business, as Adi puts it. about the responsibility of a company and a CEO beyond just the stock price, that it's gonna start by standing up for sharu and principles.

40:16 I'm Bob Sapian. Thanks for listening. Rapid response is a wait what original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our producer is Alex Morris. Associate producer is Mashumaku Tonina.

40:40 Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastonelli. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Le Cal Malad. For more, visit rapidresponsehow.com.