Transcript

Brené Brown & Reid Hoffman on the skills every leader needs now

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0:53 Hey folks, Jeff Berman here. I am thrilled to share some of the new names who will be joining us at this year's Masters of Scale summit. This may be our biggest stage yet. Reed Hastings, Meredith Whitaker, Van Jones, Amjad Masad, and more. Will be there with us October 20th through 22nd in San Francisco. If you're building something great, or you want to build something great, We want you there with us too.

1:20 Join us at masters of scale dot com slash apply twenty six. That's mastersofscom slash apply. twenty six. Hi, folks. This week on the show, Reed Hoffman's conversation with bestselling author and researcher, the phenomenal Renee Brown. She joined us on stage last week at the Masters of Skills Summit in San Francisco, where Brene and Reed had an inspiring and action-oriented conversation about courageous leadership. I hope you enjoy it.

1:57 Ah! Yeah. Clearly you have some fans here already. I like it. Mm-hmm.

2:11 Mm-hmm. You have a new book out. Called Strong Ground. Which explores many aspects of what you call and what should be called courageous leadership. So What is courageous?

2:23 Leadership. Well, I heard the word humility during the introduction, and to me courageous leadership is A combination of a deep awareness of who you are. And leading with discipline. And accountability and humility.

2:39 It's about understanding that to lead is To serve others and not be served? And it I think it's probably rooted in every in above everything else. Self awareness.

2:51 about who you are and how you're showing up probably undergirds all of it. And what are some like habits, principles, ways that you help people understand are they exhibiting it? What kinds of ways to build into it? Because obviously it's the right aspiration for everyone to get to courageous leadership, but It isn't just a slogan, it's actually a way of being. Yeah, it's interesting. I think the biggest finding

3:14 possibly of my career. Has been that courage is Teachable, measurable, and observable. Things the ability to be very clear about your values. And to assess whether you're behaving in a way that's aligned with them. It's one thing to have values, it's another thing to operationalize them and then hold yourself and your organization accountable for them. The second is the ability

3:40 To stay in your integrity in vulnerability. Vulnerability is very simply uncertainty, risk, and exposure. So all of us are in it every day, all day. And the ability to know when you're in it. And to not reach for armor. I hypothesized early on.

3:56 That the biggest barrier to courageous leadership was fear. And when we went back to some of the leaders we were studying, they literally said some version of this to us. If you're gonna make a list of brave leaders, Who are never afraid, don't put me on the list, I'm afraid every day. And I was like, Well, if it's not fear, what gets in the way of courage? Armor.

4:16 It's how we self-protect when we're afraid. It's usually out of our awareness. So one of the things we do with leaders is what's your go-to armor? Mine is terrible. Mine is perfectionism. Micromanagement. I also get super decisive. That's my armor. So I'll be in I'll be in a meeting and yeah, I won't get paralyzed. I'll be in a meeting and I'll be like, shut it down. No, move the team, change the money. We're not doing this. And then I'll look up and I'll be like, oh shit.

4:46 I don't know that these are good decisions. And literally the last time I did that, my team looked back at me and said, We never write anything down when you're acting like this. I was like, wait what? And they're like, this isn't your armor. That is my armor. I get overly decisive. And so for us to be courageous, we have to know the very human ways that we self-protect when we're afraid. What's some of the ways to kind of discover that armor and learn how to Disarmor yourself. So I think most of us know.

5:18 I mean if you want to ask someone I wouldn't ask someone that works for you. Because there's a power differential there that could make it super cringy for that person to describe exactly how you're an asshole. What form of asshleness do I do I default to when I'm afraid? But they may smartly say, I don't know. Oh no, not the perfectionism. What's your weakness, perfectionism, everything I do is very good.

5:55 That's not how it shows up for me. Perfectionism is like Maybe a month ago I gave the packing parachute speech. We're back in parachutes. Hundred percent matters. You wanna jump out of a plane with a parachute that was packed at ninety percent excellence. People die. And I think we were talking about a font choice.

6:17 Yeah. Don't get this wrong. People will die. This is all like a founder problem. But I have a therapist and a coach. I'm working on it. But I think you probably know. Like raise your hand if you could think about How you self-protect when you're in fear or uncertainty. I think you know. And I don't think you normally have to ask other people.

6:41 And if you don't have the insight. The courage to think about it, I question. The sanity of you leading people. Yeah. To be honest with you, because who we are is how we lead.

6:53 And if you're not willing to have the humility to look into Can I get scary when I'm scared? Yeah. And I think a lot of us can. I can. Yeah, no, it's classic. So It's classic. I'm a legend.

7:09 So you do intense research, you meet a lot of great COs Probably need a lot of not great COs. I'd say probably over the last decade or two. There was kind of more generally saying, Hey, CO should be more Empathetic.

7:23 And it seems to be going somewhat the other direction now. Um sometimes People might describe that accurately as testosterone poisoning, which we have a certain amount of. What you seeing in this pattern of What kind of environments are COs operating in and what's the way to maintain

7:41 Kind of a true North. for themselves their organizations de culture What are the forces? That are acting against it and what are the ways to navigate it? I feel really lucky because

7:52 I actually go to work every day. I spend probably ninety percent of my time working with C suite and then level of direct reports under the C suite. I'm so Optimistic in many ways because When you stop scrolling and you turn off the news. And you're just sitting with people in a room, you see a lot of great people who wake up every day and are committed to doing the next right thing.

8:14 regardless of what's in the zeitgeist right now. And I feel like that makes me very optimistic. I think in terms of the cultural push against empathy. I have two thoughts on that. One is just honest. Look. My leadership plan

8:30 Includes hurting people. Especially vulnerable populations. I'm gonna be against empathy. I'm gonna diminish and devalue empathy if part of my plan is to be hurtful. Because I don't need your pushback and your resistance.

8:48 So that's one. The second thing is empathy is very nuanced. And so it's easy to grab the parts of empathy that are actually not very helpful. So there are two types of empathy. There's cognitive empathy and effective empathy. So if you call me and you're like, Hey, Brittany, I'm really having a hard time. And I say, Tell me what's going on, and you tell me what's going on. And I reflect back and say, God, that sounds Like incredibly disappointing. And we have a conversation, and you feel seen and heard and believed. That empathy, that cognitive empathy.

9:21 Is not only the source code for relationships, it's the source code of democracy. Period. Affective empathy is you call me and I say what's going on and you describe what's going on, and then I feel it with you. That's not helpful. That leads to burnout, it actually minimizes compassion. So I think we have to get really clear on what's healthy empathy and what is not. But large sweeping statements about empathy as the end of Western civilization. by people who don't understand it and are also doing really dangerous shit to groups of people don't mean anything to me.

10:00 Personally. A hundred percent. I I I I get why it would be convenient if I stopped caring. Not gonna happen. Yeah, exactly. And a lot of how you describe cognitive empathy for me is how I think about compassion. So how do you think about the difference in cognitive empathy and compassion? Oh God, it's so interesting from a research perspective. Compassion is so brave. Compassion is.

10:24 The willingness to walk through the world. And accept that there's going to be suffering. And that when you see it, you're willing to do something about it. That's compassion. That I am gonna move to the world. And accept that there's suffering mine and yours.

10:41 And when I see it, I'll be moved to do something about it. Empathy is a tool of compassion. It's a teachable tool. It's a hard thing to teach. Like I've taught in a graduate college of social work for two decades, and like when we teach empathy, it's like role plays, and you're like, Oh Mr. Smith. You must be feeling

11:00 Super betrayed. Right. Yeah. And then Mr. Smith ine inevitably will say, No, I'm not really Okay. Sad, you know, it it's hard because really good empathy requires emotional granularity. It requires the ability to have a pretty robust

11:22 emotional lexicon. Which is hard because our research shows that adults in this country. Can name and accurately identify about three emotions. Happy, sad, and pissed off. And we think there are about 85 to 90 that are important for emotional granularity. I'll say that's sad, but that's sad.

11:45 Pissing me off. Yes, exactly. But but imagine I'm not happy about it. But you're not happy. Like you get three buckets, pick one. But imagine like reducing everything that we experience in life. to three buckets. And neurolinguistics would tell us that The ability to access language that accurately reflects what we're feeling. Is so important to the human experience, which is why three buckets are not enough, because it doesn't include

12:11 Uh Wonder. Disappointment, grief. Anguish. Things that really define the human spirit.

12:22 More from Reed's conversation with Brene Brown. In just a minute. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. Those were great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future? That is human centered.

12:53 I'm Rana El Chayubi. And on my podcast Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

13:22 Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from The Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search rapid response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. Welcome back to Masters of Scale. You can find this conversation and more.

14:06 on our YouTube channel. In the classwork and the students Do you actually run through The entire emotional gamut.'Cause I could see that being

14:18 Stunningly important. Let's actually expand Your experience emotional vocabulary because actually in fact if you don't have that kind of sensibility You can't be compassionate. You can't have

14:32 cognitive empathy, etc. And the the ability to understand like I have regret. Do you run through the Ah awesome. We do and they pick Two or three. That they want to learn more about that they think would make them stronger leaders. In their organization again, I'm usually at the C suite level, so they're often picking emotions.

14:53 That are preventing their team from getting back on their feet. Yeah. After failure, disappointment, and setback. 'Cause one of the things is you see especially. Among CEOs today. is not if, but when there's a failure and a setback and a disappointment.

15:09 I need everybody on my team to be responsible for their own bounce. I need everybody to get back up on their own because I cannot both correct what's happening. And Remind you of your value. I need everybody up on their own, and so in order to get back up.

15:27 We have to understand the whole collection of emotions that we're feeling. Yeah, no, exactly. There's this concept within health things of like cognitive reserve and you know motion reserve. Emotion reserve. Yes. Actually strikes me as a really interesting thing to be building resilience in. I mean I hate this because it rhymes, so it makes it seem less important. But there is something that therapists often say, which is if you can't name it, you can't tame it.

15:54 If you can't accurately name what you're experiencing, it's very difficult to move through it. When we were doing strong ground research, we wanted to come up with What is the future of leadership look like in terms of actionable skill sets? emotional granularity. ended up in the top five. So and other four?

16:16 Self awareness. One that I cannot believe has fallen to the wayside. that I see less and less in senior leaders today systems thinking The ability to think in terms of systems, which is really scary because. If you're familiar with systems theory, you know the prerequisite for a healthy system is permeable boundaries where good data and feedback can flow in and out pretty freely.

16:41 Especially with AI, what's interesting. Oh, you got the excited face. Um What I think is interesting is when A team or an organization loses the permeability of the boundaries.

16:55 They're not bringing in external feedback or internal feedback consistently. Boundaries get closed. Two things happen to a system, whether we're talking about a cell or a tech team. you become a self referencing system. And so what you end up doing is are we good? No we're great.

17:11 Do we need to know more? No, we know everything. You know, the MIT Sloan research that just came out. Investments in AI. Ninety percent failure, no return on investment. And a lot of that is because of self referencing systems. Лайкю хав the courage.

17:30 In this environment. I know very little. In times of disruption. People try to persuade themselves it's all under control there is an inherent risk. It's like no no, we're moving through times of disruption. Right. You need to have a different stance towards it. And not just you as an individual, but you as a leader, you as a team, et cetera. And that's part of the reason why this

17:53 Resilience because it'll be bumpy. Oh, it's so bumpy. It's so bumpy and How many of you I can can't see y'all but how many of you have ever watched five year olds play football? Uh soccer. Sorry. Soccer.

18:06 I'm a big Liverpool fan, so I've converted to football. Um, although it's not going well for me right now. Um We have a midfield problem. But When five year olds play soccer. And the ball comes in hard and fast, head height. What a five year old does is put their foot up head height.

18:25 And they try to kick the ball. And of course it goes off the pitch, into the pitch next door, where someone's sitting crisscross applesauce making daisy chains. You know? It's great. Both my kids played at that young age. As soccer players get more experienced, what they end up doing when the ball comes in really high and fast is they take the ball into their chest. The ball drops to the ground. They put their foot on the ball to maintain possession, because the game's all about possession. They look down the pitch.

18:51 They think about operationally where is the ball, not where is the striker right now, but where is the striker going to be. and they kick the ball to where the striker is going to be. And that set of skills Is what's missing right now. You have CEOs and C suite leaders kicking the ball at head height. As hard as they can.

19:10 Not bringing the ball into their chest, settling the ball, taking a breath, looking strategically down the pitch. And the CEOs that I'm working with around AI that are settling the ball are coming out of their skin every day. Yeah, they're saying. I'm trying to settle the ball. I'm trying to take a breath.

19:29 I'm trying to make sure that my AI strategies align with my business strategy. And I'm trying to make sure that my budget line for bringing the humans along is also substantial. But I'm scared shitless. Because everyone else is moving so fast. that I don't feel like I have time to settle the ball or look down the pitch.

19:50 What do you say? When you're Confronted with that. What's the way to help them? The game is moving very fast. I'm AI is obviously on everyone's minds. Right. how it integrates their lives, their organization's lives, their work's lives, etc.

20:04 What's some of the work that you've been doing and lesson to say Hey, here are some principles. To deal with this very chaotic fast moving game. I think the first thing is Ай со респект.

20:19 A leader Who has a self awareness to say I'm trying to pause and be strategic and thoughtful, and I'm coming out of my skin. The first thing I would tell you is anyone that has the the self awareness to say that. immediately gains my confidence.

20:35 Because so much of what's happening in terms of the world today is happening outside of the awareness of very senior leaders. I mean this is a call that I had yesterday about relocating supply chain because of tariffs. And The leader just kept saying We need to move fast. What we're looking for, and this is tricky. I'll be curious about what you think about this.

20:57 I want to see urgency. I want productive urgency. А ванасі риск такін. А ванасі стратегіч риск такін. It is the job of a leader today in this environment, given the political instability, technology, changing markets. I think the number one job outside of self-awareness of a leader today.

21:18 Із том where none exists. Yeah. Create time where none exists, and so to understand that better, I had to turn to sport. Um there's so many sports metaphors. Literally the question I got from the Wall Street Journal is Did you feel comfortable putting a chapter around John Keats next to a chapter called The Tush Push? Yeah.

21:43 And I was like Yeah, dude, why? Like I'm like, Do you like poetry? And he's like, Yeah, and I'm like Do you like football? And he's like, Yeah, I'm like Shut it. If you turn to sports. And you look at really talented athlete.

22:00 It looks like they're slowing down the ball in play. Yeah. But they're actually not creating more time between a serve and a return. Or a kick. What they're doing And I think this is the future of leadership is a very complex skill set of anticipatory awareness.

22:19 Temporal awareness. And situational awareness. So the leaders today are understanding how To read.

22:30 What they can't see in football we'd call it pocket presence. Like a quarterback. Oh, yeah. Breaks back, he has three seconds. To figure out how to move the ball down.

22:42 But it's a very complex Grup of skills that he has with his team. Around being able to see to be able to read a field you can't see. So the question I have for a lot of senior leaders is Where are you on anticipatory awareness?

22:57 Where are you in systems thinking? V. the deep thinking skills moving forward. I completely agree. And part of it is to realize that While it's moving very fast and You cannot create more time.

23:13 Your fitness function is not response at speed, your fitness function is Intelligent response at speed. Right. That's the difference between

23:24 urgency and productive urgency. between risk taking and strategic risk taking. Every CEO saying I need more risk taking. That's like I was interviewing someone the other day. And she said, No, I'm a get shit done, a G I'm a G S D kind of person. And I was like that I don't need.

23:41 What I actually need is a G S S D, get strategic shit done. Yes. Because what you're seeing right now, and I'm curious if you're seeing this. You're seeing action over impact. Depends on the leader. It does definitely happen. And obviously we've introduced like five to seven questions that we could go on for the next thirty minutes. Oh yeah. But

24:01 The clock just wrote out. It takes me twenty five minutes to order a sandwich, so we did pretty we did pretty good. So as you can see, amazing Thanks, Frenny. Thank y'all so much. Thank you.

24:18 Thanks again to Brene Brown for joining us at the Masters of Scale summit. Her new book is Strong Ground, and we'll put a link in the show notes, and while I have you. Just a deep, deep thanks to everyone who came to Summit, not just those who appeared on stage, but who were in community, in conversation, looking for ways to build a better future. We're so grateful to all of you and we're excited to see you back in San Francisco next year. Masters of Scales await what original. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Our senior producer is Trisha Bobida.

25:15 The production team includes Masha Makutunina, our senior executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and Mastering by Aaron Bastanelli and Brian Pugh. Original music by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Let allad. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter.