Business as a sport, Surge AI, and Waymo vs. Robotaxi

0:00 Dude, manifest is out. There's a new word. Uh what? Generative. Wait, is high agency are we selling high agency? We're selling high agency at the top right now. We're spacking high agency, it's gone. Taking that cash and plowing it into general. I feel like I could rule the world, I know I could be what I want to.

0:20 I put my law in it like my day song. On the roadless travel, never looking at it. What I miss. How was the week? Week was good. Uh what do we do? We got Chris Corner. That episode's popped off. It's over a hundred K on YouTube. So that's

0:33 Going well. And uh dude, there were so many replies to One idea that was in that episode. I don't know if you listened to the episode. The golfing one?

0:45 The Golfing What. Dude, I got Literally hundreds of replies. of people who are like, I could do this right here in my hometown. People are sending PowerPoint decks. People are doing drive by sending me videos of the lake where they think they could do it. They're reaching out cold. It's very intense. Uh how many people have replied to this and now we're going to be able to do it. And what was the idea? Was it was about betting as to where you could hit it? What no, so basically on the way there's a place in New Zealand on the way to the golf course.

1:12 It's kinda side of the road. There's like There's a road that's driving by a body of water. And if you just stop on the side of the road, there's this thing called like whatever the whole in one challenge and You buy a bucket of balls and you're gonna try to hit this hole in one of this little Golf hole that's floating out.

1:26 You know, a hundred. hundred yards away in the water. If you hit it if you get it. You get ten grand. And so it's just like a fun thing for you to do with your buddies like on the way or to or from a golf course.

1:39 And he he was talking about like you know s sort of napkin mathing what he thinks it's making based off of available information. He's like, I think this thing does like three hundred to five hundred K, you know, in revenue and Yeah, the costs are pretty marginal. It's like person standing there with an iPad. Uh they there's a scuba diver that goes in once a week and fishes out the balls. Like that's it. And so

1:58 People got we and we s we basically Said, Hey, I think this idea could work at more places than just this random roadside thing in New Zealand. Let's bring this to life and who wants to do this? And that a lot of people have come come out. So we're gonna We're gonna make it a a MFM project. We're gonna see what we can do with this. So I all like all the comments were like this is what I've been missing with MFM because like we started a lot with that. And then like our interests have grown and so the content has grown to be or evolved to be a little bit different sometimes. And uh one critique is like

2:28 Um Uh what is this, my first billion? Because we talk about like uh like you know bigger ideas. And um I was thinking I uh you know, we've become um acquaintances with Joe Lonsdale, who uh because this podcast is worth I don't know billions, uh some amount of billions. And I was uh with him recently.

2:47 By the way, if if you need to pick that up, let me know. If you need to pick up that that name drop. Uh did I try? Did I drop that somewhere? Did I drop that name down somewhere? Uh No, but he uh and he was telling me like oh man. Or I was with him when I got my Twitter check. Like do you know how you get like Twitter money now? Like you're like for example, I for some reason my Twitter was a thousand dollars last payment. And uh like the month before it was like six hundred dollars and I was like, Man, this is crazy. I just got paid six hundred dollars for Tweeting which is insane. He's like, Yeah, I got like

3:17 Four hundred dollars. And he was joking about how it feels Uh just as exciting every once in a while to get like a four hundred dollar thing than it does uh however much money he's created in his lifetime. And I was wondering, do you feel like when you're talking about these things, like you just lit up when you talked about three hundred, four hundred thousand dollars when That may or may not I mean I don't think so. That's not gonna really move the needle for you and your life. Um, but it's kind of exciting, isn't it?

3:41 Yeah, not'cause of the money. It's just uh I think it's awesome. Uh I think the idea the idea itself is fun. Making it happen. Sounds like it's gonna be fun. Yeah, actually I was just uh watching um an interview with a guy who they the NBA finals just ended. They had game seven, the Thunder won and there was interview. I watched it. I watched it.

4:02 There was this interview with one of the guys, so they they asked Jade up there, like, you know, when you look back on this year, what's the one what are you gonna remember? What would what were the high points? And he goes. He's like, it's weird, dude. He's like, I rem if you think if I think about this year, he's like I remember Me and Chet, we would go to our hotel room, we would do film sessions, but back when he was coming back back from injury to get it going, or like these team dinners that we were having. He's like, I couldn't even tell he's like, I don't even remember what happened last series. Like I don't remember in the the recent games what happened.

4:30 But those kind of like Those inputs on the journey are like just like are so vivid to me. And this has been a very common thing where If you talk to Pro players.

4:40 after the career's done and you're like, what do you miss the most? And you expect them to be like The big pressure moments, the the those big games. And of course, they do like those, but the thing they talk about always is. The team bus rides, the locker room, the It's all of the like camaraderie stuff that happens along the way. It's like the kind of the build up.

4:58 Is the stuff that they miss the most. And um I think it I think there's that for entrepreneurship too. Uh I think there's that that's A a huge amount of the fun of it and it's what

5:09 You get excited about. You need the number to sort of justify it. The the number gives you some air cover. For why you're acting like a little kid, you're so excited about something. The numbers help. Because why are you taking this

5:21 Silly thing so seriously. But uh I think we would probably all do it without the numbers as well, or if the numbers were half as much or whatever. Yeah, and I noticed the best the the the people who love M F M the most and the guests who you and I love the most are folks who um Uh, you know, I hung out with a a friend of mine, um, and she was like 'Cause she was from a bad neighborhood, now she's rich. She's like, You know, I'm so good

5:42 At going really high and going really low. I was like, What's that mean? She's like, I can hang out with like my homies from where I grew up and we could just like shoot the shit and kinda be a little like hood ratty. Or I can go hang out with a billion and I could I love that too. I can I have so much joy doing that as well. And and I could Blend in and get along with everyone. And I think that's like the that's like what the pot is. It's like you Like talking about these smaller things as well as the big things, and it's the same type of person who loves both. Yeah, exactly. Also

6:09 Do you think about Business as like a sport. Because that's more and more become my mental model is the way that Because I you I you meet people in a lot of people we know have now become successful, but they're still doing it. And obviously

6:24 For many of them I I I I call it they've already made the last dollar they'll ever spend. Right. Let's say you make Thirty million dollars. Y at that point you've already earned the last dollar you'll ever need to spend, especially once you s take into account that. that thirty million could just sit in a

6:41 Whether it's a simple interest bearing account or the SP five hundred and it'll just keep it'll double every seven years. So thirty becomes sixty, sixty becomes one twenty, one twenty becomes two forty. And that just all happened over the course of, you know Something like twenty five years. And so

6:55 You've you don't need to go earn the next dollar, but why do they anyways? And part of it is I think It feels good to be good at something, and if you're good at something it's hard to stop doing it'cause the feedback loop of being good at something is strong. But I think in that same way. If you think about business not as a mechanism to make money, but as a sport.

7:13 I'm uh as a sport you play, then it's like, oh of course, just because you're great at tennis and you won a tournament doesn't mean you'll stop playing tennis. Why would you do that? That's your sport. You love to play the sport. You'll basically play the sport until your body breaks down and doesn't let you play the sport anymore. And it feels good to manifest. It feels good to have an idea and to see it in the real and into reality. It's really fun flexing that model muscle. Manifest is out, there's a new word. Uh what?

7:36 Generative. Generative? What does that mean? This is this has happened a few times to me now. I uh high agency. Are we selling high agency? We're selling high agency at the top right now. We're spacking high agency. It's gone. Taken that cash and we're plowing it into generative. Okay, so generative. I was on a podcast and I was like at the end, I was like, How was that? And you could tell me the truth, because I do podcasts all the time with guests. I know it's sometimes hit or miss, like Give me the

8:01 From one podcaster to another. What was that like for you? And he's like It was great. Because you're extremely generative. He goes, W what? And then he goes, It was also hard.

8:11 Because you're extremely generative. I go, What does that mean? He goes. I'll say two things, like I'll give you one topic. But you can almost like bloom that or expand that into like a story, a framework, a this, a a related idea, a simple example. You just generated all that content off the cuff.

8:29 Right away. And he goes, you know, Bology is like that. Bology is extremely generative. You give him one thing and he's able to like take it from like The origin of man. to a hundred years in the future and he could connect all those dots.

8:42 So I heard it once and I was like, Okay, that's cool. I don't know if I just got insulted or complimented being called generative, but I'll take it. And then James Courier said the same thing. He goes He's like he's like the reason we get along is because we're both extremely generative. He's like we like being around generative people. And he's like, you know, why do we admire Elon? It's not'cause he's rich.

8:59 'Cause he's the most generative of all of us. Right, and he's the least fearful and that's why he's able to be more generative. He's he's like he literally generates businesses like the Boring Company and Neuralink and SpaceX and Tesla. He's like he's generating kids. He's generating ideas. He generates a president. He gener He's just doing so much. And that's admirable to somebody who is generative. And so

9:21 I started using that little lens and started looking at people being like, How generative is this person? Meaning If you would give'em an inch, could they take a mile? And what is their overall level of output in their life? You know, like how generative are they with like, for example, James Courier. It's not just businesses he's generated. He you know, at one point he also started a church in San Francisco. He started a new religion. And you know, then he created this uh like sort of incubator, this fun, then he created a podcast. He's just constantly creating things because he's extremely generative. And it's whether it's with his kids' life or it's his business life or whatever.

9:53 So I started to realize, Oh yeah, I'm really attracted to that. I like people who are like that and I I I wanna be like that. And figure out a way to make that work. is um Is a fun challenge. It's a generative is the new word. Have you ever heard of this book called The Inner Game of Tennis?

10:08 I've heard of it, but I've never read it. Is it good? Yeah. Who's the pro who's it about? Okay, so the inner game of tennis, I randomly discovered it because I was at the airport and I was just looking for a book to read on my Kindle and I wanted something short and I for some reason I feel like I'm in a bookstore we're looking for books to download separately. No, like I I don't remember what I was just like I think like I was on Amazon on my phone and like a sports psychology book came up and I was like That's intriguing. What are what's like the top sports psychology book there is, or something like that.

10:38 And I randomly came across the inner game of tennis. It's about uh it's written by a guy named Timothy Galway. And it's one of these books that it's about life and it just uses tenus tennis as the analogy. And the premise of the book is that you have two selves.

10:54 Self one is your person so like when you say like um Uh when you're playing tennis and you hit you do a bad hit, you go Uh. Why do I suck so much, or like like that is self one. The critical self.

11:06 And then self two is like your animalistic self who doesn't um who doesn't uh think too much and is just your body and that learns by observing. And it's all about how to be generative. Uh, and by ig by ignoring self one and letting self two do all the work. And it gives you all of these tips and tricks on how to listen to self two. And this sounds very woo woo. Uh and it is a little bit woo woo, but the book was written in the nineteen seventies.

11:30 And the coach of the Seahawks writes the forward. What's his name? Pete Carroll. Pete Carroll. Yeah. And like every new edition, they still are like they're still releasing new editions where all these like who's who Of leaders are writing about it. And I think I I didn't realize it, but after I started reading it, I was like, Oh, wait, Tim Ferris talked about this book as one of his favorite books of all time. And I've been reading it a whole lot, and it applies very much to business. I think it's only a hundred and fifty page book. I've been reading um I'm almost done. I read it in like two days. Uh the the it's very similar or very applicable to business, which is what you said about Elon of he's not fearful and things like that. This book actually gives you like a set of frameworks and a way to communicate to yourself in order to not be fearful when you are coming up with new ideas. It's incredibly fascinating.

12:14 Dude, this is awesome. I love this type of book. It says The Inter Game of Tennis, the classic guide to peak performance, introduction by Bill Gates and a forward by Pete Carroll. Isn't that crazy? I didn't know that that I did I don't have the I don't have the Bill Gates one. So I didn't know that. So he wrote the the introduction. That's wild. And so have you used any of this or give me like has it have you s found a way to Kind of apply any of these yet? Well, so like the a very simple example is like for lifting weights or for going for a run.

12:41 When you lift weights, you're like, Okay, I have to lift this weight for three times. And it's the heaviest weight that I've ever done. So I'm really scared. You don't listen to that at all, and instead you just get under it and you go, I'm gonna let self two do all the work. I'm gonna trust self two. And if I fail, I will not be judgmental. I'm not gonna say you suck. I'm said I will say Uh You know, your knee

13:01 m moved in a strange way. So I'm just gonna objectively acknowledge what's happening. And then I put and then I when I went left three times, I get it up on me and I just observe the weight on me and I only go for one rep and I'll be like, All right, how does that feel? Self two, let's just do The second rep. So I basically am talking to myself sort of like an objective machine, not an emotional person. So the whole I'm fearful, I'm fearful, I'm fearful, you just set that aside and you go, It's self two time. There is no room for that. It is only room for Uh objectivess.

13:30 All right, I did something similar to this in this in this vein. That I didn't even plan to talk about but I'll I'll just tell you this'cause I think it's it's kinda similar. So One thing I noticed is any time I go into a project

13:42 Uh, you know, I obviously have A lot of excitement. And I have a lot of hope at the beginning, correct? That's obvious. And then the second obvious thing is that I'm going to hit Some sort of obstacles, walls, plateaus.

13:56 Something that I don't want to happen is for sure gonna happen. I've never once experienced a project that I just simply started, everything went as planned, and it had a happy ending. Like this literally just never happened. For me to expect that to happen would honestly be a little bit foolish. It's like Why would I think that that was the case? Yeah. At the same time, as soon as th I hit those obstacles on those walls, I'm like shit.

14:16 Like I wish this didn't happen. I don't want this to happen. Why is this happening? And I waste all this energy. On something that was inevitable. It's like playing Mario and being like Oh my god, I can't believe these Goombas are walking at me. It's like, dude, that's the game. Like what what do you mean? Like You wanted to play this game without anybody like trying to bite you? I don't I don't understand what you thought this was gonna be. And so recently I was doing a project and um

14:38 Last week I wrote out a thing in advance. I'm just gonna kinda read you this. So I basically wrote like А simple letter to self. For like Two months down the road.

14:49 And by the way. According to Tim, according to the Intergame of Tennis, when you have that feeling, you don't You do not judge it as positive or negative. You say Now this is a challenge, okay, noted. And then you just keep going.

15:03 Do you know what I mean? There is no why like this is horrible. This is awful. Why me? You think you don't judge the the emotion you're feel you don't judge yourself for feeling it, or you don't judge the thing. Both. So you uh you you only objectively acknowledge it. So you say like uh so the ball was out. Okay. Right. Noted. The ball was hit too hard.

15:27 And then you're you trust self too to adjust. But you don't You don't you you know what I'm saying? You do not acknowledge or judge it as I hate this. I suck. This is bad. It's

15:37 The ball was out. So I'm just gonna give you a little bit sense of how I wrote that. So I was like, I was like, hey, it's me from the future. I'm ready. I'm ready this to you three months from now. First congrats. Thing you did so good. Turned out amazing. I'm really proud of you, slash me. Uh and I said. This is a letter that is guiding you to some of the entirely predictable upcoming road bumps that are headed your way.

15:57 Um, not only is it predictable that there will be road bumps, I can probably tell you right now what they're going to be. All right,'cause like That's true. So for example, I was thinking about This isn't what I was doing, but Just to make it a simple example. Let's say you're trying to hire a head of sales. There's some entirely predict like you know you want to do it. You know you'll pr you'll be able to do it, but there's some entirely predictable road bumps, which is like

16:18 Um You know, you're probably gonna procrastinate starting it a little bit. Because it's the idea of finding that perfect person's a little bit hard and you might put it off a little bit. Then that then You'll talk to some candidates who are disappointing. You may even run into a candidate who's really great, but the offer doesn't work out. Maybe maybe they don't take it. Maybe it's not the right time in their life, et cetera, et cetera. So you can basically upfront tell yourself. Yeah, these four obstacles are probably gonna be here. I've played this level of the game before, or I could just

16:43 See what's what's coming. And so when they come, it takes the emotional edge off of it. 'Cause it's like, Yeah, I know. There's no I don't feel betrayed by this. I don't feel surprised by this. Like I I knew you were coming. Here you are. I thought I'd be seeing you soon. And I al I also had already kind of t thought about like what I would do to get around that before it hits me and I'm in like an emotional state. So it's like Yeah, I'm probably gonna meet a bunch of people who are kinda disappointing and it'll probably feel in the moment like

17:09 God, am I ever gonna find somebody great? But of course I will. I only need one and it's a numbers game, and I should I I should probably just expect that I'm gonna talk to about, you know, thirty to forty people and That Twenty five of those people are gonna be truly just a waste of time, uh, you know, in terms of the interview. But that's okay. That's so that's part of the process.

17:25 And you tell yourself that up front and then as it's happening, you're like, Yeah, well, I already I already addressed this. I don't need to like react to it again. 'Cause I already kind of pre reacted to the whole thing. And what uh is this project that you're doing like big or is it like Do you recommend doing this for a small thing or only a big thing? I don't know. This is my first time actually doing it like the corny step of like writing it out to myself. I'm like, dear Sean. Um PS.

17:50 You're pretty Fucking Laneford write this. Exactly. It's like all right, that's three pages now. This was cool when it was a paragraph. Um I think it was it was very helpful. I will do it again. Um

18:04 I w I will do it again. I don't I mean I don't know how much this actually like it doesn't It sort of blunts the pain, but the pain's still there. You know what I mean? It's like when you get a shot at the doctor, it's like If you really are looking at it and hyper fixated on it and you start hyperventilating about it, yeah, it's kind of a worse experience. If you look away, you might still feel a little prick, but it you know, you took the edge off of it. I think that's what this has done for me. All right. So we're talking about like big and small. Do you want me to tell you about

18:28 a small thing and a big idea that are to me are equally fascinating. Okay. Go to patronview dot com. So Okay. Yeah.

18:39 So I was with Nick Gray this weekend. So I did this amazing or we did this amazing vacation where my friend David owns a home in Utah and about eight of us Or maybe six of us plus our spouses and our kids all went and hung out and uh it was amazing. And Nick was there. And I was looking at his computer.

18:57 And I said, Nick, what are you doing? He goes Let me tell you. And it was very fascinating. And so it's called patron view. Uh Page Review dot com.

19:05 And so Nick used to own this website or sorry, own this service called Museum Hack. Where it was kind of amazing that it existed, but you would pay a hundred dollars and Nick or one of his tour guides would take you to uh the Met And give you a sort of gorilla. Uh tour.

19:23 Of the um Of the museum, and it was amazing. And so that's where he got really into museums. And he became buddies somehow, or somehow got uh Uh.

19:32 in with the guys who do the fundraising and because he's a business person, he was like, Oh wow, it's so fascinating that one person is doting a million dollars, ten million dollars, twenty million dollars to these museums and they do it Every year into tons of different museum museums. That's really amazing. And so recently With uh a a mutual buddy, Stetson Blake, they

19:51 built this website where it's pretty amazing where all he did was if you go to the Met Or One of a dozen or hundreds of other museums. They every year they have to put out a PDF that explains who donated money and how much money that person donated. And so he's aggregated all of them, hundreds or maybe even thousands. And he used AI to upload all of them into a database. So if you are fundraising

20:16 for a museum. I believe if I had to guess, you're gonna be able to pay his service money to find out who the whales are. You know, whatever. And it's crazy that because of AI, he was able to make this, he told me Uh for two thousand dollars.

20:30 It I'm just gonna read the about page. It says Uh, we're a research platform doc d dedicated to documenting cultural philanthropy. I've never actually heard that before, which is just shows how like much of a noob I am about philanthropy, but the that makes sense. So people who donate to things that are about culture. And then it says where and then it says the data. Our research is pulling from annual reports Nine ninety tax filings, institutional publications, official documents, and proprietary sources.

20:54 This lets us present donor information that's never before d been displayed. We like to think of it as celebrating philanthropy. And enab enabling development departments. Pretty cool. Awesome. It's great, right? Like I was I was like, Nick, what's your deal here? Like you want to turn this into a business? And he's very Nick is happy. Like he's not looking for anything. He's like, I don't know, I'm just tinkering. And in my head, as someone who is probably less uh s you know, uh content than him, I was like, Oh man, like Nick, you could do this, you could do this, you could do this. And that's like how the entire conversation uh came about. But isn't this pretty cool that he's like building this and this is his hobby and the fact that AI has made this so easy.

21:32 Yeah. Dude, this is great. I mean uh Nick I've I've already Yeah, really. shout out him out on here a ton of times because He's somebody who's made a big impact on me just seeing the way this guy rolls through life. I'm like he just does things for his own amusement. He does things on his terms, and I think he does things with high intentionality.

21:49 And he's doesn't seem and he basically resisted the rat race. I think those are the people I admire the most of all is the people that had resisted the rat race. Like I think he neither chases money Nor status. Um and If you think about the people who are talented and successful in your life, how many do you think actually

22:07 Truly are resisting. Money and status. Very l very few. I know probably two people, him and Jack Smith. Yeah, so it's pretty crazy. And so you just sort of watch their moves and then you look at them and y you know, you can kinda learn from them. So this is this is extremely cool. Like I and what's funny about Nick is every two or three years or something like that. He likes to uh find a publicly traded company that he loves.

22:30 And he'll make a big bet on it. And right now his or for the past probably four or five years, actually, his bet has been Cloudflare. Like for some reason, I don't know, he's got all this analysis. He like loves it to the point where like When he hosted an event, he specifically hosted his event in the Cloudflare. uh event space because he's like so loyal Like I'll wear Cloudflare T shirts, whatever.

22:50 Um like one time there was a a race uh like a like a five K or a marathon through Austin and he'll like hold up a sign that says like Cloudflare rules. Like that's because they went it's you told me like at his birthday party he had his birthday party at the Cloudflare office and then midway through the birthday party he's he ran upstairs and got like two like a product manager like a marketing manager to come down and be like hey everybody Quick word from Jack from the marketing department. Why don't you just tell us about the great things you got going on at Cloudflare? The guy's like, uh yeah. So you know, And before and before he brought that guy in, he goes, I need everyone to treat Jack from Cloudflare like a celebrity. And so when he walked in, we go, Oh my God, is that Jack?

23:29 Are you the VP of engineering at Cloudflare? Oh my God. He's here. He's here. Stock is the stock is up four hundred percent in the last five years. So he's done press. He's done well. And if you click the about page. I know for a fact so he lists an area that says technology. Patron View Patron View is built with modern web tech to ensure fast, reliable access to data. And He only did that so he could list that he uses Cloudflare. I know that's exactly how he thought. Um but the reason I'm bringing this up is I think that if you're like just starting to build a business or something, you should follow Patron View or like go there, like go there once a week and I and I would bet that you're gonna see like it evolve. Like

24:09 Uh, you know, it's sort of like measuring your kid on the wall. Like you're gonna see like the measuring like that's what's gonna happen with this. Cool too that I think another another cool thing about this is This fits into like a a genre that personal software. So Uh or maybe social software. So basically Uh when The internet came out.

24:28 Before pre internet, the only people that made media were media companies. You know, you got your media from the New York Times and the Huffington Post, whatever like Newspapers, magazines, T V, etcetera. And then when the internet came out and you got Facebook and Twitter and Instagram and Snapchat. Then social media became a thing, and everybody became a little broadcaster, right? Everybody broadcasted little moments of their life or their content or their interests, whatever it was.

24:53 And there was this explosion, like you know A sort of like one billion x increase. and the n amount of media that was created because everybody was doing it. And like One clear thing I see that's happening in the world today is that

25:06 That's now happening with software. So software used to be something that only software companies and software engineers could make. And yeah, there's only like I don't know, there's m less than a hundred million rough roughly software engineers, like proper like professional software engineers in the world. So you know, a hundred million out of eight billion people. Could do the thing.

25:25 And you know, if in terms of software companies, there's even less, maybe a hundred thousand uh software companies. I don't know. It's all order of magnitude, roughly. And now with like Replit and V Zero and all these different tools. It's gonna be like social media, where like, Oh, I have a I carry in my pocket a thing that can make media. It's like I carry my pocket a thing that can make software. So a guy like Nick, who before this probably couldn't have taken his idea

25:48 And made it into an app. Because he would have to either A learn to code or B go hire like expensive programmers to make this happen. Like he did most of this with AI. And so you see personal software this like Yeah, this personal software category, which was like didn't exist. Three years ago or five years ago.

26:04 Um is now going to have the same sort of like One billion X. You know, increase. Uh, just because anybody who's got an idea can now make their idea. Now Today it's like broken.

26:15 Three fourths of the time doesn't quite work. But like every six months that number goes down by fifteen percent. And so, you know, within two or three years, that number's gonna be like zero, right? It's gonna be like When you have an idea, you make your app. Everything that I've been making on Replit and Lovable and Cursor, it's basically just like a Figma replacement. Like I'm just like

26:34 It's basically just like drawing on paper. Yeah. It's just like a mock up and you still need someone to like actually do the work. But it but it it's a sick mark up. Yeah, so somebody call it minimum viable promise. So it's a minimal viable product. It's like it's not really a product, but it's like it kinda has like you make a promise. You you can see the promise of something. And I think that's what a lot of these tools are able to do today.

26:56 Have you heard of a guy named Edwin Chen? Edwin Chen. I mean there's like a you probably have a six thousand of them on my Facebook feed. Uh I went to school in Beijing. I I think I got a few Edwin Chens in my Rollodex. Edwin Chen.

27:11 Might be The like if you uh did like a chart of like richest slash unknown slash youngest person in the world. I think it's gonna be Edwin Chen. Is this the guy who's doing surge? So yeah, so Edwin Chen.

27:26 Uh in like two thousand eighteen, two thousand nineteen, he worked at Facebook. And the story is is that he was tasked with like making some type of Yelp style product. And what that meant was he had a list of fifty thousand vendors and he needed to figure out Which of those fifty thousand was a restaurant? And which were uh a grocery store.

27:48 Uh and so he went and hired a firm, uh some company to like Parse it out and it's like manual. You you you had to do it manually. Like you had to like hire some firm that had a lot of uh offshore talent to go through and do it all manually by hand. And he was like it took us four months or six months, something like that. Which basically just meant we had to sit and wait. Like we couldn't do anything until we had that data. So I just had to sit and wait.

28:12 And so he had this idea. Where he was gonna make a better way to do data labeling. And the data data labeling is important now because that is what a lot of AI companies use, which I had no idea they they did that, and I'll explain how they do that. But basically when a company like OpenAI

28:30 uh wants to figure out if a certain repr reply is unethical. So like for example, asking like if it is it okay to like hit someone or I don't know, like whatever like questions you would ask it, a real person and and actually not just a real person, but like a really smart person. uh even someone who like does engineering or uh philosophy needs to spend time going through all the potential answers and to tell open AI, I think this one sort of fits what you're going for. Well anyway Edwin had this idea of I'm gonna create this massive workforce of philosophers, of engineers, of Ivy Lee Greg grads who can go through and label all of these answers as good or bad. So AI companies can kind of I can be like their offshore talent.

29:12 And so he's done this, uh, and it started in two thousand and twenty. Now has a hundred thousand people. who are in the marketplace working for him and as these data labelers. And this company is completely unknown.

29:25 So if you I think it's Surge AI, I believe is the URL. So if you go to Surge AI. It's a landing page with one paragraph. That's an amazing paragraph. If you want, you can read it. Do you wanna read it? Yeah, I was just reading it. What made people like Hemingway, Calo, and Von Neumann so extraordinary?

29:41 their life. The books they read, the stumbles they had, the reinforcement Every time friends laughed at their jokes and every time they didn't. It's the people that met the police board at every decision they made along the way. data does for AI, what life does for humans. It elevates the neural networks. That know nothing about the world.

29:57 into the intelligence capable of providing new art, setting rocket ships to Mars, et cetera. Our mission is to shape AGI with the richness of human intelligence, curious, witty, imaginative, and unexpected brilliance. We wake up every day trying to use the data that makes this possible. Amazing, right? Romantic. It's romantic. And then this guy made Like a giant fleet of overseas data labelers.

30:18 Sounds like Like The the army from three hundred. Yeah. It's the it's the best. And it and their real website, I believe, is dataannotation.tech. That's the website where the uh that's the website where the uh where the annotators go to apply. But the way the business mod the way yeah, it's much more traditional. And that one there's like a brown dude staring at a laptop with a reflection blurring his eyes and it says, get paid to train AI in your schedule. And so the way the business model works is they have a hundred thousand of these folks.

30:52 And they train them on different standards and whatever. And then they've also made software so uh they can show the the the basically homework or task to their folks. And a company like OpenAI or uh Google, whatever whatever is gonna pay. A surge, millions and millions of dollars. And surge is then gonna take something like thirty or forty percent of it and give it to the annotator to do the work. So this company is only five years old. And it's pr uh it was leaked that they did one billion dollars in revenue.

31:23 In the last twelve months. And this guy, Edwin Chen, he's only Thirty seven years old and he owns one hundred percent of the company. They have not taken any outside funding. Now listen, their biggest competitor is a company called Scale. Scale is run by this guy named Alexander Wang, I think Alex, Alex Wang, I think his name is. And it recently sold for something like thirty times revenue. I believe it they were doing like eight hundred, nine hundred million in revenue. They just sold half of the company to Facebook. I think it was for twenty eight.

31:53 Yeah. Which means. Which means this guy, uh, Edwin He's thirty seven. And has a five year old company.

32:01 Presumably is worth something like Thirty. billion dollars. And you can't find him on Twitter. He has no blog. You can't find photos of him.

32:10 He used to have a blog, but you have to go to Web Archive in order to find it because he took it down. And his customers are like Edwin is out online, you can't find him anywhere, and we like it that way. His bor his business is very boring. The branding is basically non existent. And it just does a very good job. And compared to Scale, who's like, you know, the hottest kid on on the block, like Alex Wang was just on Theo Vaughn's podcast. He was at the inauguration. He's kinda like the kind of like uh the the it guy right now.

32:36 Th these guys are the exact opposite. You're not gonna fum them anywhere. They only have a hundred employees. They're totally under the radar. And uh It's super, super fascinating.

32:47 Dude, this is uh This is wild. Uh I c I did not know that he bootstrapped the whole thing. I I also had never heard this company until scale got bought. I had never heard of this company. So their their company is is is killing it now because scale got bought. So because scale got bought, is now owned basically by Facebook, Google and and a bunch of other companies they go, Ah, we don't want to we don't have with you anymore. We go on straight surge. But they were already winning.

33:10 They were at a billion in revenue and scale was at seven hundred fifty billion. And the reason why they're winning is because they are they charge a premium. And they're uh cr they he is like I don't We got scale, but it's like I wasn't trying to get scale.

33:25 Meaning I wasn't trying to grow big, I was trying to hire the best people and to train them really well. And I charged for it. I charged three times what scale charges And the results have been better and people really like us because of it. And this whole data labeling industry, I had no idea about this. I I didn't know that people were behind the scenes making these decisions. It's kind of wild. I mean this is one of the best like

33:49 Uh picks and shovels businesses. So if you've never Heard pics and shovels, it's uh the idea is like any time there's a gold rush Who makes the money? Yeah, it's the f the few people who find the gold. But the more reliable way to make money is just to sell pics and shovels to everybody else rushing into the gold rush. And scale would surge.

34:08 were the best picks and shovels businesses, maybe besides NVIDIA. Because what they were doing is saying, Cool, everybody w everybody wants to compete to become the you you want to make AGI, you wanna make AGI, you're all raising billions and billions of dollars. Well, all of you have this same problem. And I will sell the data labeling service to all of you. And This is so funny that now that Facebook is buying uh scale. It's like

34:30 There's All that revenue. has to find a new home. Like this that it's crazy that that's the best news ever for this guy. And there's another company called Handshake. So if you go go to joinhandshake dot com. Previously or it still might be this

34:45 But they were known as a company that helped recent college graduates get jobs. And so basically they're a job board or job network for uh twenty two year olds. Do it. Yeah, this was for college kids.

35:00 Okay, well listen to this. They noticed a few months ago Uh that surge and uh uh scale were using their service to find these these data annotators. And so they go, uh

35:16 We're gonna do that now. And so in a very short amount of time they pivoted and that business that they have is gonna be at a hundred million dollars a year in the next couple of months. In a very short amount of time, because what they did was they went and just said, Oh, you are looking for a data uh annotation gig. We got you.

35:34 Let's uh let's go ahead and get your train and and we're just gonna provide that service to folks. And so handshake is uh uh building that business now. Dude, that's so crazy. I remember using this because I was like, Oh, it's interesting that nobody's really built The the kind of like one place to go hire college interns or college Like fresh grads.

35:53 And they built this like marketplace where you could go post on a job board at my local college here and I could get But it was like kind of crappy, dude. It was like it wasn't great. There's very like little liquidity in the market. But I remember thinking like this is an interesting idea. Somebody like it's a marketplace. I like marketplaces. Somebody should do this right. And um I remember they were kinda like puttering along for a while, it seemed like And uh

36:15 This is so funny that they pivoted to this and now are gonna just explode. Yeah, and if you Google Uh handshake data annotation. You can find the blog post that they uh that they wrote on them announcing that they were doing this. And so it basically just says that for the past decade, handshake has changed how college students started their careers. And then it it goes on to basically say We're changing the company to like just hire and just do this thing and it's already making a hundred and they don't actually say this, but like it's now making a hundred million dollars a year. And you know, I don't know how long this stuff will last. Like, you know, this might be a business that

36:50 I think in like seven to ten years you may not need this anymore. Like it seems like the way AI is going. You may not need this kind of human in the loop. Um to label all this data. Either they label

37:03 They label enough data where then the model learns how to label data. You don't need humans doing this. Or they use a thing that doesn't have the R R R L H F, right? Like you y you just do reinforcement learning. Without human feedback. And I I think some people who are kind of pure believers in AI think you won't need the human feedback um at a certain point. So

37:24 This might be a get get while the getting's good type of business. So let me let me tell you uh a a a potential counter to that. So Tim Westergen founded a company called Pandora. And I think he started it in nineteen ninety uh Uh, maybe ninety eight. S it was like be pre iPhone. Um

37:42 Wait, when did the iPhone come out? Oh eight, oh six? Yeah. So it was like probab probably like two thousand and two then. And anyway. Uh, he told me this story because we had him talk at one of our events where he was like I raised seven million dollars and all seven million dollars of that went to hiring basically ex musicians or musicians who are teachers and didn't make a lot of money. And for two years I had about a hundred and fifty of them listening to music and I gave them

38:07 basically a scantron of all types of attributes that a song could potentially have. And so if you're listening to the Beatles, you would fill out like, okay, it sounds like it's at like uh ninety beats per minute, it sound like it there's guitar, like it's melodic, it's lighthearted, whatever. And after two years of doing this, he put all the data, basically scantrons, into this algorithm that he built. And he started playing like Uh uh he told me a beetle song.

38:32 And then s and then he clicked next. And it would suggest new music that was similar to the one that the the Beatles song that he originally played. And he said the Bee Gees came up. And he was like, The Bee Gees and the Beatles, they're not similar at all. What the hell? And then he kept cleaning next. He's like, Oh wait. They had the same melody, or they ha they all like have the same like they make me feel similar. And he was like It's working. It's working. And so originally his idea was I'm going to create kiosk at Best Buy. So you could say, I'm interested in Beatles, but here's like five other songs that Best Buy could show you, and you will buy those CDs while you're there. And then the iPhone came out and he was like, Oh my God, this is actually the exact way to apply this.

39:05 And so this idea of datal data labeling has been around forever. And I didn't when I was reading Scale or about Surge, I was like, Oh my God, this is exactly what Tim was explaining to me, how Pandora started. And so this has been around for twenty years. And so you say, I don't know if it's gonna be around or not, but I don't know, it's been around for twenty years so far. Yeah, that's true. But uh it's kinda like Like self driving, which is coming out now. I've taken the Waymo's in San Francisco. And Robo Taxi in Austin, the Tesla the Tesla self driving just launched in Austin. Um I think like

39:36 Two days ago or something. But they took two different approaches. So Waymo basically has this really expensive car. I I forgot the all in cost, but it's something like a hundred fifty to three hundred thousand dollars. Is the cost of the car with all the sensors on it.

39:49 Right. So they have this really expensive car. With Lidar. And In addition to the lidar.

39:56 Te um hard code and hard map the roads. So you know, for for years they would drive around and basically like Map the road. physically. And they could only launch in cities where they had mapped the roads.

40:09 And Tesla took this other approach, which was basically Cameras only. No LIDAR. And we're not gonna hard map the roads. We're gonna let people drive around and then the car.

40:24 And Uh it was this interesting bet because Elon was like lidar is not only we're not doing it, it's stupid and that's a dead end path. And everybody else was all in on lidar. Everyone's like lidar makes it safer, it's better. You can't do this without LIDAR. And Elon's point was

40:40 We humans drive with just eyes. We only have cameras. We don't I don't have a lidar in my brain and I'm able to drive safely, right? And LIDAR is what? Lidar is uh Uh like Uh you're shooting some type of signal and it bounces back. You can see through things. So uh I don't know exactly what's the difference between Lightar and radar and all these different things, but like

41:00 It's another version of basically scanning. That allows you to do what a camera can't. A camera can't see through an object, LIR can. It can sense that there's another another object behind it. So like the classic example is like, you know. You know, maybe you're gonna do a a turn, there's uh something obstructing your view, but then there's a little grandma walking on the crosswalk, but you couldn't see the grandma till you started to turn visibly. But Lidar would know that there's a somet there's an object there that's that's moving. Point is

41:26 Other sensors besides cameras. Whereas Elon was like, No, we're just gonna put like whatever, eight cameras on the car and that's gonna make it work. And for a long time there was a big debate. Some experts thought Elon is wrong. Some were just like Elon is correct, and Elon we trust. And

41:41 Very smart people were on both sides of the debate and it was like a very high stakes debate because self driving cars is one of the most valuable Prizes that there is. Uh like self driving cars, I I don't think people really realize it. I think because it's I think because people talked about it for a while. They got kinda numb to it.

41:59 This actually happened with AI too. People have been talking about AI, maybe machine learning, deep learning for a long time. People didn't really realize when something actually had changed. And then suddenly like wait, it it's actually here. And the same people who'd been tracking it for a long time were almost Late to the party. 'Cause they mistakenly wrote it off as yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard this before.

42:19 And so the same thing's happening with self driving cars, where it's sort of like yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's like wait a minute, it's actually happening now. Um It's ca'cause it's an ex extreme game changer, both like For society, for Tesla's business, right? Like Tesla's business is now gonna be If you own a Tesla, when you're s instead of ninety five percent of the time your car just sits parked.

42:37 You're gonna just tap a button and say, Go make me some money, please. And like a dog it's gonna go fetch. It's just gonna go out there and it's gonna start doing rides for people and it's gonna start earning you money passively. Uh all the time. Dude, I think uh I think Morgan Stanley or Chase, one of the big banks like last week

42:53 was like wrote this report where they had to say what the world's gonna look like With self driving. And it wasn't like Um It it was far more grand. They're like the economy is going to look radically different because people are going to have so much more time.

43:10 Like it was like At a macro scale, it was like, Oh, like the world will change because of this. But it was also like there's sixty, I think, thousand card deaths a year. Like what's the world gonna look like with with more people. Like like it was like a pretty meaningful like it was like a very grand way of thinking about it. It wasn't just like Oh wow, I could play on my phone while I'm walking or driving to work. It was like no, everything changes.

43:31 I I asked last night I asked Crock, I said, What are the second order effects of self driving cars? Here's what it said. So it's like cities are gonna look completely different. Right now, parking lots itself occupy thirty percent of all urban land. Um, in some cities. And this is gonna you're not gonna need parking lots because the cars aren't gonna just sit parked, they're gonna be running around. You're gonna need way less cars in a city.

43:52 Plus they don't they're not gonna sit still. So you don't need all of the space. Just look around a city, how much space is dedicated just to parking. Like we're gonna look back and that's gonna look sort of like a cavemen style thing. It's like'cause in the future, those are gonna be parks and public case. It's gonna be smoking in a restaurant. Yeah, exactly. The good version of this is that's like, you know green spaces and affordable housing, but like who knows? Maybe maybe it actually gets co-opted for some other purpose. They all just become like, you know D drone delivery, uh, you know.

44:22 Uh parking units where where Amazon keeps like ten million delivery drones. Um The next one is labor. So right now there's three and a half million truck drivers alone, let alone all of the like Uber and taxi drivers. And you're just not gonna need That job.

44:39 Period. I and w I don't know what happens to that, but there we go. Uh the next one is, you know Basically you I think the average person Spend something like ninety minutes a day just commuting.

44:51 And so you get you know Of your wake time. Let's say you're awake for sixteen hours. You're gonna add, you know, what is that? So let's just pretend it's two out of sixteen. You're gonna add like, you know, thirteen percent more time to everybody's day where they can now sleep. Yeah. Work play.

45:06 Right. You're gonna sit in a car and you're not gonna have to think about the car, you're just gonna be able to do one of those things. Which also means The car becomes a new place for entrepreneurs to build experiences, right? Like today There's no one out there b being like I build car games.

45:21 Right, y there's people who build mobile games and Xbox games, but there's nobody who builds car games. Well, car games is gonna be a become a thing because people are gonna sit in cars and play video games. People are gonna sit in cars and they're gonna relax, recover, they're gonna work. And so you're gonna build tools that that go in them. Uh another one is insurance. It's like the whole insurance system. Like you know, buffets. Big bets and Geico and all those things.

45:42 It's all based on human driving. And so if humans aren't driving anymore, like Both the risk and the the the risk reward ratios change. But also who are you insuring? You're insuring the software company? versus like individuals, like how's this all gonna work? And so that whole in all the whole insurance industry tr uh changes.

46:00 Um And then basically like car ownership. So Today owning a car is both like utility but also status symbol. So it's gonna be kinda interesting. Like you're a car guy. Like I wonder When they're self driving cars and basically transportation's just on tap, like flowing like water, right? You just

46:16 You push a button and in thirty seconds the little car the car of your liking pulls out. It's gonna be like people who like horses now. Like it's gonna be a small group of people who are passionate. Yeah. It's just like oh, you're passionate about it and you are lucky enough to have enough room or enough money to like afford it. But uh like maybe I'll like buy a group on and can go experience that once in my life. Like that's what it's gonna be. Yeah, or like you know, like horseback writing is like therapeutic. People like to like brush a horse or pet a horse. It's gonna be like that with a car. It's gonna be like male therapy to just like Get in there and just

46:46 Be behind the wheel. Have control over something in your life. Yeah, it's gonna or like it's like punk. Yeah, you could like feel the noise and like smell the gas. Like it's gonna be um it's gonna be like a hobby. Yeah, it's not gonna it's not going to exist. I don't think I think it's gonna be a lot longer. Um But like in twenty it could be twenty years, twenty five years. It's not gonna be in the next five years, but yeah, it's gonna be a hobby. You sure about that? Why do you think it's not gonna be in the next five years?

47:11 Waybos are now doing twenty percent of all the rides in San Francisco. Because I was zero. Like Have you ever like A large percentage of people of Americans have to Um

47:26 Let's say sixty miles one way. to to work or they have to like pull stuff or carry stuff. I just don't think I think that for the urban the There's it's not um oh um There's g there's gonna be like a there's probably gonna be like four sections of users. So it's like young urbanites, and it's like, Yeah, you guys don't need a car at all. Like you're you're you're doing that. And then like the far end of that spectrum is like uh rural people who have to actually toast stuff. You know, even though everyone has a truck, very few actually use it, but there's like that section. And there's like the people in between. And there's gonna be like a timeline because like if you ever you can't really tow anything on an electric car right now.

48:02 Uh it's like it's they you say you can, but go talk to someone who lives in rural Texas when you have to like be driving shit around all day. It's like impossible. So I think that there's gonna be like um it's gonna be like for um You know, what's that early? But when you say it's not gonna be five years, are you saying it's not gonna be meaning Self driving's not gonna work. No, it's gonna work. It's just not gonna just the user adoption. It's like it's gotta t it's gonna take a minute for that for the whole spectrum of people. I think for the urbanites and people like that, it's it it's tomorrow we we're gonna do it, I think. Yeah. I mean that guy Towing probably still doesn't ha he still has an AOL email address, right? Yeah, yeah, like so I think it's pretty safe to say that that person's not

48:40 Yeah. It might be forty years before that person. It's gonna be a long time. But then like you know, there's like a lot of y you know People like I'm one of'em. Like I'm romantic about my gas vehicle. I had an electric car and I got rid of it. And I'm like in my head I'm like I acknowledge it's better. I acknowledge that like It's the future.

48:58 But it sucks. I want our vegan friends. It's like I get it. Yeah, we shouldn't kill creatures. But it just tastes so when you dip them in ranch, it's fantastic. Uh but I'm excited to what's crazy is in Austin, I think Or SF people are actually paying more for the Waymo's. Yeah, yeah. It's not

49:20 It's not that much cheaper yet. That was but people are people want to not be around someone. And uh that was unexpected. So like when I was d when I drive my my I have a B and W that has self driving stuff, I feel way safer on that than if it were just me. Uh, and I think that there's like twenty percent of people and it's usually men I've noticed. I've noticed women tend to hate every woman I've talked to hate self driving and every man I've talked to likes it. And uh but like have you have you do you have any self driving now?

49:47 Um No, well, I don't I don't have it, so I haven't had that. that level of a uh I haven't had a sample size to to no I've noticed that I'm curious if that's common. Or if you're just like indexing out three people. No, it's well yeah, I am.

50:00 But uh yeah, it's like five of my friends. Like the husbands use it and the wives are like nope, I don't mess with that. I don't use it. Uh but I feel way safer with it. You wanna do one more thing or you have something. Well, I have a f so I tweeted something out that Elon replied to over the weekend. And How did that make you feel? Did you Like did you like clap and like scream? No, so I First of all, I played it so cool.

50:22 You wouldn't. If you had seen me You would have thought I might be under the weather. That's how cool I was playing it. And Actually what happened is

50:30 Um I just texted my wife. And I was like Uh. Not Elon replying to me.

50:37 And uh And then I just I forgot about it. Next day I didn't even think about it. I I moved on. My mom calls me. She's like, Sean, what did you say? I'm like, what? Sean.

50:48 What did you say? Elon What'd you say to Elon? And I was like, What? My wife put it up on her Instagram story and I was like, Oh my God, I'm trying to play cool over here and then you made it like you know, lame city. So That felt Interesting that I got like multiple phone calls from people and I was like, that's like the only time your wife has shared something that it

51:05 is when another person replied to you. Exactly. I thought that was interesting, how big of the reaction was. But the thing I had said was I wrote Within a couple years Not using AI.

51:19 while you're doing your job will be the equivalent of coming to work without a computer. Like if someone just turned up and they're like, No, I didn't bring it today You'd be like, what the hell, dude? Like what are you planning to do? Wha what is the what's the plan here? That's how it's gonna be if you're if you're trying to do your job and you're not using AI Constantly to do to do your job. Yeah, that was a plan he was like, you know, sooner, probably.

51:42 And um and and so that was like And so I started thinking about that and I started thinking about Um somebody else s said this thing, they go Pretty soon being a doctor who's not using AI as a co pilot, like you're let's say you're radiologist. And you're just trying to eyeball every

51:58 Every M R I. And you're not also running it through AI, that'll be considered malpractice. Because Like you put the patient at risk by not at least including the second layer. Of AI diagnostics.

52:11 And I thought that's pretty interesting. It's like the flip is gonna go so much from This doesn't work you know, something we don't do, we don't even use it to If you're not using it, it's considered a malpractice. Whether it's corporate malpractice or medical malpractice. My doctor friend admitted to me the other day, he goes

52:26 OpenAI is a better doctor than me. And uh he was like and I knew this was gonna be popular because For years. patients come to me and said, Well, Google says this. Or Web M D says this, and he says

52:41 Over the last six months, the only people who have used that reasoning is with open AI. And said Well according to OpenAI. Yeah, Chat GPT said this. Uh and he goes. And they're right a lot of times. The diagnosis is right. Did I got in a fight with a doctor recently about this. Did I tell you this?

52:57 What did they say? My mom had to have a surgery. And but she was on a trip. And So I'm like calling in to the doctor, every time the doctor would make her rounds, she would like FaceTime me in.

53:09 Um, she's on those other side of the country. And so The doctor would come in and like doctors Doctors are very hit or miss. I love some doctor, but a lot of doctors, I'm like, wow, this is an extremely underwhelming experience. And so this one doctor comes in and she's like Yeah, your levels were fine. And then I'm like.

53:27 Yeah. I actually ran the test through chat GPT and the levels were like high for this. And she's like, Well, which level? And I'm like I tell her I'm like, Whatever the thing. The n the whatever the n the term was. And she's like, Yeah, that was high, but you know, um, it depends on the exact number. So what was the number?

53:44 Uh I I would have to check. I'm like, y you're the doctor, so yeah, you would have to check. Like, you know, what do you what are you talking about? And I'm like You know, the AI basically chat GPT said if it's above this, then you should consider doing this like additional Additional step. Like do you believe that that's like do you agree with that? Like do you think we should do that step?

54:02 She's like Well, I d I mean you're putting me on the spot here and I don't have the number. And I'm like And she basically was getting pissed. And she's like, Well, if you're gonna ask me questions, then I'm gonna need to go look at the number. And I literally was like, Yeah, you are gonna need to go look at the number then. I am gonna ask the questions like what are we doing here? I don't understand. Like, why are you offended by me asking if you

54:23 If you Have seen the data from the test. The test you just said to run, and now you're coming back to discuss the test results, and you don't want to look at the test result. I don't really understand what's happening here. Well, I think what's gonna happen is that you know how have you noticed So uh have you ever ha been to a doctor now with an AI scribe?

54:41 So like they have like for Okay, so for a long time Oh, I was humiliating her in front of her AI scribe. Is that what happened? Well, for a long time they could have been human scribes. And so like I have you been to a doctor and seen like a person on an iPad? Like literally it looks like the doctor's face timing. Typing notes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's like a scribe. Now they have AI scribes. And I think what's gonna happen is like the I the AI is gonna like talk up and be like Actually, ma'am, but he's right. Uh like I think that's what's gonna happen.

55:09 And if I was an entrepreneurial doctor, I would one hundred percent Start a new practice. All centered around we are AI first, so we work with uh AI, you know, and I don't think that you we ar we aren't at the point and maybe we'll never be at the point where you totally trust it. Just like you always want the pilot, even if autopilot is still a thing. Right.

55:29 But I would like go heavy on that, uh of leaning into like we have all of the contacts here, uh we have all of your files uploaded to our chat GPT or whatever it is. And have an AI first because I think that a lot of people like you and me and people listening to this podcast they have the similar sentiment where they're like, Oh no, I trust a computer way more than a human being. But I would also want the human being to put their stamp on it. It's also the time wrong. found the problem and the doctor didn't. Sometimes it's just as simple as like

55:59 Cool, the doctor came in, they talked kinda fast, they didn't fully explain I I still have more questions. And so you go and you ask ChatGPT to explain it to you, maybe simpler, or you ask some follow up questions, maybe you're not as embarrassed to ask questions, you feel like You're not like Yeah, the person's not like in a rush to get out of there like a lot of doctors are. And so sometimes it's not even that the

56:18 AI doctor is better because it's smarter. Sometimes it's because it's infinitely patient or it's an infinitely better communicator. Or, you know, it knows um, you know, maybe other things about you, or you know, you could ask some follow up questions. You don't feel silly doing it. Like Those are other components of The doctor experience essentially bedside manner. That

56:37 Yeah, he's better at. Yeah, and uh So I'm like Very eager to see how this works. I go to um I go to a a a doctor now, a concierge doctor, and it's not very expensive, but the reason I go there is the average

56:50 At most doctors They have to see four patients an hour. So they're at fifteen minutes. And i is that insane? I remember I went to a doctor and like my I had an earache. I'm like, guys, my ear is killing me. And uh like he spent no time like trying to like help me like figure this out.

57:04 And I went to a concierge doctor and the average time is forty five minutes. So we can like thoroughly walk through things. And so if I can just use all the information that they have and then go and ping Chat GPT to further the conversation. It is pretty brilliant. Um, I'm very eager to see what's gonna happen. I like people act like AI is amazing for a bunch of different stuff, and it is, but the what they're doing with medicine. And drugs and cancer and things like that is like pretty astounding. And I think that's gonna be the major breakthrough in the next couple of years.

57:31 Did the other one? Lazy ass parenting. So your kid's a little young. For this. But It is amazing, dude. I I I'll open up

57:40 Gemini? And it has like a camera mode. But why do you use different ones? You've said Claude. Sorry, you said uh Gronk and now you're saying Gemini. And then we also refer to Ch you use different words. So like If you want.

58:02 To be if you want something that's a little bit more real and objective, I think Glock is better. If you want something that's Uh either code or creative writing. Claude is better. It you know, they the catch all is chat GPT. And then Gemini has some like advanced features. So this is what I was saying. Like Gemini has the thing where you just turn your camera on like FaceTime. And I think it's for like

58:23 Maybe you're supposed to like show it your car, be like, how do I repair this? And it like tells you what to do. But I just point it at my kids and I'm like Hey, we're playing charades, guess what they're doing? And then my kids will like Get on the ground and start like crawling and it's like

58:37 Hm. Seems to be a boy crawling. Maybe it's a snake. Is it Are you a worm? And it like tries to guess it. They love it, dude. And so I'm able to just straight up chill and let them play with AI. It is amazing. Another one I'll do is I'll just be like, Hey, I have a five year old and a four year old here. And they want trivial questions. They like animals. They like Paw Patrol. They like um, you know, they know a little about Pokemon, but nothing too complicated.

59:01 Um ask them a bunch of questions, cheer them on when they get it right. If they get it wrong, tell them the right answer. Keep track of the score. Here's their names. Go. That's the prompt. And it plays trivia endlessly with my kids and they love it because it's all audio, which kids can do. They don't have to like be on screens To be able to do this. And um so I'm just discovering like game after game I can play with them. Like I'll do like

59:23 Basically replaced Kuan with Hey, I need um advanced kindergarten math. Which like I don't even know what that means, but it like gets you it for whatever reason, those three words give me the sweet spot of like the question that that that kind of works for my kids. And um

59:37 It's like a tutor, right? It's an infinitely patient Tutor. with them. And it's not perfect in the sense of like, you know, sometimes it like starts and stops its audio because if you make any sound, it thinks you're talking. But damn it's Pretty it's pretty good and uh it it's like already usable for us.

59:53 I've not Seen G uh I didn't even I didn't know much about Gemini. Gemini Live, I had no idea what this was. Is this Google? This is Google. Gemini's like After summer break, you know that one kid who comes back? It's like they're kinda like hot now, but you still have the old

1:00:09 image of them, like their reputation is still being at like not hot. But objectively they're hot now. But nobody's really on it yet. That's what Gemini is. Gemini was basically out of the game. AI tools out of the games. I guess it's chat GPT, Groc, and I think it's a change.

1:00:24 Yeah. And then she changed and she like it's like Wait, like she got contacts and like she learned how to do her hair. She like walked it watched a makeup tutorial. It's like Start rollerblading, which was like surprisingly good cardio, and now like suddenly Gemini can do things that like the other ones can't do, but nobody's on it yet. Which doesn't really actually give you any benefits. Wait, so Gemini's hot now? Gemini's hot now. Google's hot?

1:00:49 Google Thought, yeah. I don't know, man. That's hard for me to buy into. But Yeah,'cause you're one of those jocks at school who's just stuck in seventh grade, he'd forgot.

1:00:59 What happened over seventh grade summer? All right, I'll use this. Yeah, I'm just stuck on chat GBT. Uh, and I don't use Gronk'cause I d I I'm shock when people say they use Gronk I'm like, Wait, so you go to like Twitter.com to use Brock.com. That's just is that the same thing as that's the Twitter one? Yeah.

1:01:17 Because Steph Smith just got a job at this other one. What was that other one called? Oh she she got it at Grok with a Q. That's stupid naming unfortunate. Unfortunate names. I'm a shareholder of Grop with a Q also, but unfortunate naming situation. Yeah, and it's AI as well.

1:01:35 They're making chips. Okay. Well, they should change their name. Yeah, that's that doesn't make sense. Or at least the pronunciation, right? Like I don't know, like I don't know how you all see it. I don't know what they're gonna do. They could be groque, I guess, but they yeah, Grok is so it's the same you see. I love putting the N in there, like it's Rob Gonkowski.

1:02:00 Wait, what did I say? You're saying Gronk. Oh what is it? Crock. Crock. Yeah.

1:02:09 Like sh the shoes, Crocs. Uh Crocs. Yeah. Wait. And so what is the Twitter thing? What do you mean? What is it? That's also black. Oh, that's not Gronk? Oh, I thought it was crack. Yeah. There's no N. Any of them.

1:02:24 That guy's a football player. He's a retired football player. I went to Montana to visit a friend last week and I wore overalls because they're like the best. I saw a photo of that and I just did. Thought to myself, holy shit. This guy's got This guy's got no no limits. He's just wearing overalls as standard standard wear. It's the best clothing. Because you could put your phone in your wallet right there on the chest. And so you're like holding kids and like you just have so many pockets and you have like this right here. And I love it. And she was like, Oh, you got these

1:02:57 D did you think that we're all cowboys here? And I was like Huh? And she's like, you wore your overall smart end or you try to make fun of us? I was like, what are you talking about? I uh I've worn these for years. I am not pretending. Uh no, I actually just got a concert. You wrote something uh the caption of your post, you go from now on. I'm only taking photos.

1:03:23 That if my kid looked at it twenty years from now, they'd be like My dad was pretty cool. That was great. That's that's'cause you you have that photo of your father, right? of him when he was in his thirties and you're uh a baby and he's like doing something cool, he's wearing a cool shirt and you're like Oh wow, dad was sick or like oh yeah, you don't see them like that anymore, right? Like they don't hair anymore. They're like fat now or whatever. And so you you don't you don't see that side of them. But like

1:03:49 It lets you put a little respect on their name when you see like oh damn, when they were young, they were actually kinda That's actually kinda fly what they're wearing. So I was smoking a cigar and uh uh they were uh which I never do, but I like was smoking a cigar and like they were gonna take a photo with my kid or someone had a camera and I was like go take a photo and I put the cigar I used to hide it, I would hide it behind my back, and I'm like Nah, fuck this. She's gonna be proud. So I put it back in. Do you think smoking is gonna be cool in thirty years?

1:04:18 That's gonna be like y you had like a slave with you or something. It's gonna be crazy that you were just smoking with a baby on your shoulder. Brother, have you seen the photo of the eight guys sitting on the the beam off the like Uh the Empire State Building. I think I think to myself, those guys are crazy. They're dangerous. But they're fucking hard. That is awesome. And so I will never be on the beam of the Empire State Building a thousand feet above the air, but at least I could smoke a cigar and look remotely cool.

1:04:47 Dude, we should print this out. I want this framed. Dude, three of them have overalls. Very similar to the ones you were wearing. Yeah, but so

1:04:59 Do you just need this like beret hat. You probably have this. What am I talking about? Of course you have this hat. Yeah, and the courage to eat lunch a thousand feet above uh the Which is like Even back then, the the co workers were like

1:05:12 Guys, what are you doing? There's a cafeteria like right here. All right, that's it. That's the pod. I feel like I can rule the world, I know I can be what I want to I put my law in it like my day song On the road less travel never looking back

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