Finance Expert: The Truth About Buying a House and How Her 652015 Rule Built $200K in Passive Income!

Transcript from https://podmenti.com/t/603238f7eafbb326

We put a lot of pressure on people today that as soon as they start working, they need to get onto that poverty ladder. But there's ways to build wealth that don't require you to be in the real estate game, including three numbers that everyone should know when it comes to their personal finance. Sixty five, twenty, fifty. Just knowing that creates a better life for yourself. Nisha Shaw is the former high profile investment banker.
Financial mentor whose content has helped millions rethink their relationship with money. Break free from crippling debt. And take the first steps toward building lasting wealth. Everything is trying to pull you away from your money. Cost of living going up, prices going up, fighting against marketing to keep your money in your pocket. You earned this.
So it's becoming harder and harder and I've gone through this. I followed society's version of money until I realised that if I continue living this way, the freedom, the choice options that I want aren't gonna exist.
Um
Hold on, give me a second.
And I felt really trapped at times, I didn't know how to escape.
And I know a lot of people are probably hearing this and thinking
I'm also in that place.
And so I really feel like my purpose is to help as many people to go from feeling trapped to freeing themselves.
And using money to do that.
Wasn't expecting that.

Okay, so people are hungry for easy money tips. These stay the same regardless of how much you earn. So we could talk about the Peace of Mind Fund and doing that puts you ahead or 59% of Americans than the building your emergency buffer. And this does more for your emotional well being than earning over 200k.
But where the way cost of living is going, you cannot save your way to retirement. So this is when you want to move on to investing. That is the easiest way to make money. And my principle with investing is very, very simple, and it's just
Just give me thirty seconds of your time.
Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place.
But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started.
And if you enjoy what we do here.
Please join the twenty four percent of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app.
Here's a promise I'm gonna make to you. I'm gonna do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're gonna deliver the guest that you want me to speak to, and we're gonna continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.
Thank you.


Michael Shaw.
With your YouTube channel, which has accumulated almost two million subscribers in a incredibly short period of time,
What is the
Go.
What is the mission that you're on? What is it you're trying to do?
Money touches almost
every part of our life and impact so many choices.
From where we choose to live.
Uh what we choose to do for a living.
What our weekends even look like?
So my mission is really simple. It's
Take the complicated financial jargon.
Antenna into
Easy.
Practical
Actionable.
Money tips up.
anyone can implement.
And understand.
And what kinds of people in what kinds of financial situations? Because obviously we've got millionaires on one end and then we've got people
Like me at eighteen years old that are
Struggling to even
Get a couple of quid together to feed myself.
The principles of money stay the same regardless of how much you earn. And although my mission is to
Help.
Make money more accessible.
The principles, the underlying thinking, the mindset.
can be applied whether you're making fifty thousand, five hundred thousand or more.
And we don't really learn about money.
We don't. We don't nobody in school was teaching me about money. My parents didn't teach me about money growing up either.
So
someone like you who can simplify
some of these big complicated words or terms or strategies I think is um
Is of the moment, but also more needed now than ever because people are complaining about cost of living crises and prices going up and inflation and all these kinds of things.
Is that is that what you're saying?
Absolutely.
And at the same time it's becoming harder and harder to
Save our hard earned money because
Everything.
Whether it's marketing.
Whether it's
Needs going up.
Everything is trying to
pull you away from your money.
And who are you?
I'm a qualified accountant, so I s I studied
Finance at university initially, then I qualified as a chartered accountant and then I spent nine years in banking.
And do you think you're not going to be able to do it?
sort of psychological or emotional or
I don't know, trauma response to money plays a role in our relationship with money.
Absolutely. We definitely all have our unique
relationship with money.
And a lot of it comes from our upbringing. It's like an invisible backpack that we carry that we don't even realise that we're carrying it.
And it could be
Fed through us through what we've experienced firsthand, or whether we've just been on a f a fly on a wall.
Hearing a conversation between our parents.
And what might feel
Invisible at the time.
has such a big impact on the way you see money, how you use it.
How you earn it, grow it, spend it, save it, everything.

But
That said.
You can,
Understand what to do.
To start making it.
And turning it into your favour.
What was your relationship like with money when you went to university?
I didn't understand what money meant to me, so I
Followed societies.
version of money.
So I
Bought all the things.
Two
Make me look better.
All the things to make my lifestyle look better.
And I did that.
after graduating for years and years and years.
That was the path that I followed.
for a very long time until I realised that if I continue
Living this way and spend my money this way.
The freedom, the choice options I'm
have or that I want.
Aren't gonna exist.
Was there like a catalyst moment when you realised that? Or was it just
An accumulated feeling.
So for a long time I believed in this blueprint.
Go to school, get a job.
climb the ladder and security will follow.
And I did that to the T for almost a decade.
Nine years of banking.
And I'll say I was about halfway into my career.
Where I was
We me, I met this amazing woman, she was basically my mentor.
And we're working on
multi billion dollar transactions late into the nights.
For weeks.
In a row at times.
And we were in the middle.
of one of the largest deals that we've done.
And overnight she lost her job.
Overnight. She was made redundant.
And the very next day I was asked to replace her.
And
I remember thinking at the time that this person believed in financial security.
This person believed in the blueprint.
And it was taken from her?
And now I'm in her shoes. What's to say that
The same.
won't happen to me. And that was the first time I saw a crack in the system and I realised
If you
give someone else the power to
Feed you.
you're also giving them the power to starve you.
And that's when I really understood, okay, I need to learn about money.
I need to stop spending it in the way that I'm spending it. I need to stop having this mindset around money because
What it's done right now is it's kind of trapped me.
So what I did is took it took the power back of my own hands.
Did everything I needed to learn how to save, spend, invest, budget. And it came very easily to me because I was in banking. That was it was financial lingo and I could
simplify it very very easily for me.
And that's really where
My mindset
Or my change in thinking around money changed. And that's
same moment where I started my YouTube channel.
Ah okay.
That was it.
'Cause a lot of people bury their heads in the sat sand. I was looking at some stats earlier on that said the vast majority of people just have this sort of avoidant relationship with their financial situation, with financial literacy, with their bills, with their bank statements. I mean there's like longstanding jokes from the internet that
People just don't open their banking apps. They just don't look at it.
Yeah, yeah, there's there's even a terminology for this, and it's called the uh
Ostrich effect.
And it's a cognitive bias that explains
People will avoid looking at negative financial information.
Because of the fear of how it makes them feel. It's the same reason why we don't check our
bank account after a night out or we don't open there's a a pile of bills and our
Table, we don't check them.
But it's that thing.
Avoiding it, thinking that oh it's just gonna disappear if I don't look at it. It's that thing that keeps you stuck.
It's not a thing that
makes you realise oh I don't even know which direction I'm going. It's a disorganized finances.
Yeah.
So if someone's listening to this right now and they
resonate with this idea of they're slightly avoidant, they don't really have a plan. They're kind of just they get paid, they they they answer their bills and then they wait wait till the next payday. They're not being intentional with their money.
Is there a step one in taking back control?
The very first thing.
Number one.
That I'll say to do is build a peace of mind fund.
A peace of mind find.
This is not about maths. It's not the mathematically optimal thing to do.
But it is a psychological.
Because as we've discussed, money is as much about emotions.
as a as it as it is about numbers.
So I'll say.
Es
Go through the last thirty days.
Of your bank statements.
And calculate.
Exactly how much it costs.
For one month of your living.
So mortgage, rent.
Utilities.
Fells.
minimum debt payments, car payments, whatever that total is.
That's the amount that you want to saved up for your peace of mind fund.
Okay, so I go through my last
Uh, thirty days of my bills, I find out that it's cost me
Let's say a thousand dollars.
Yeah.
That's one month of your core living.
Expenses. Yeah. So I need to save one thousand dollars.
You don't need to
Invest it. You don't need to save it. You don't need to it's not for a holiday. The reason
Why you wanna save this is because when life does what it does best, which is throw curveballs.
You wanna make sure that you have it handled. If a boiler broke
Breaks.
Your car dies on a Monday morning, the last thing you want on top of the stress of dealing with that thing.
Is the financial stress of how you're gonna pay for it.
Mm-hmm.
That's what this thing covers. It tells you.
I've got peace of mind.
Whatever life throws at me, I can handle it.
And saving that one month.
Obliving.
Course.
Puts you ahead.
Or fifty nine percent of Americans.
And thirty percent of people living in the UK.
Fifty nine percent of Americans.
Unfortunately can't
pay for a one thousand dollar expense.
And thirty percent of people in the UK
Can't
cover one month of the living expenses if something happened.
What is what is step two in that regard?
Step two.
This is where we do move into the mathematical optimal thing.
This is you cut the financial bleeding.
Okay.
And what I mean by that is I get so mu so many times people ask me
Nisha, I have
four thousand, five thousand sitting in my bank account, what should I do with it?
And my first question back to them is
Do you have any high interest rate debt?
Because if you have
Savings.
Of
Two thousand dollars.
earning four percent.
But you also have credit card debt.
Uh twenty percent.
You're leaking money more than you're making it.
It's like pouring
water into a bucket with holes in it and wondering why it's not gonna fill up.
So what you want to do is you wanna take all of your debt that you have.
Rank it from highest to lowest.
In terms of interest. In terms of interest, right?
And then everything above eight percent.
You w you want to make minimum payments across everything first and everything above eight percent, you wanna
Throw your extra savings.
into the highest interest rate first.
to the debt with the highest interest rate and then move down in that order.
An interest rate, is that paid monthly or yearly? It's paid monthly. It's paid monthly. So if I have
A thousand pound loan.
On a credit card.
And the interest rate is ten percent. I'm paying
A hundred pounds.
paid monthly, over the year they're gonna pay a hundred.
But that's split out into monthly payments, assuming that they're not
drawing down more on that credit card.
Are you against credit cards?
Credit cards are good if you're using them the right way. Really good if you're using them in the right way.
And that means the points that you're using, the rewards that you get for it, the bonuses that you get from it.
All really helpful.
Only if you're paying them off.
In full every single month.
if you're not using that or if you're not doing it in that way, which is kind of what they want you to do, because they want you to miss these payments because that's how credit card companies make money by your missed payments.
If you're not doing that, then the benefits just don't weigh up.
Okay. It doesn't make sense. Use credit cards but use it.
In a way that stacks up in your favor, not in the credit card company's favor.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's exact yeah, you gotta you gotta think about it. Can I can I pay for this thing outright in cash.
If I can, then I can ship it out on my credit card.
And that's the the anomaly is property, if you're using it to make money, healthcare, education, but if anything else.
Unless it's making you money. Yeah.
That's the way you want to think about it.
'Cause it does encourage
Extra spending otherwise.
Okay, so I'm gonna pay off my high interest debts first with any
Spare cash that I have.
Yeah.
What's number three?
Number three is build your emergency buffer.
Okay.
So the
This is your core living expenses that we've already calculated in step one.
And you wanna times that by three.
If you are
Single
You have um predictable income.
Yeah.
Or you want to time size six, if you are head of household, you have a mortgage, you have unpredictable income.
That's your emergency cushion.
And it protects you from the bigger life things.
It's a very it's the third thing you want to do. It's protects you if you lose your job.
If you have a health scare, if there are
dependents that you need to care for, this kind of buys you that time.
But there's really interesting research from Vanguard.
That actually showed
Saving three to six months of your living expenses.
Does more for your emotional well being.
than earning over two hundred K.
So just the peace of mind again.
It's that breathing room, yeah, three to six months of breathing room in your bank account. It just moves the needle. It's the peace of mind, it's the security.
It's the stability.
One of the cool human needs.
And it's interesting because we we're kind of looking at making more money and earning more.
And we're chasing the next number.
And actually the thing that's gonna have the biggest impact or move the needle on our financial well being is
At this stage, having that three to six months of living expenses saved up.
It's all relative, right?
At the end of the day. So if and
It's it's incredibly stressful and I've been there when you don't know if you can pay this month's rent, if you don't know if you can feed yourself
Um
But also the sort of un
back of the mind knowledge that if something were to happen.
You'd be screwed.
uh it's incredibly stressful way to live. And you might not even realise the stress consciously, but you might just feel it. It might just be an angst in your life. Yeah, and I I this applies at any income level, even people earning six figures who are living paycheck to paycheck, who don't have that emergency buffer in place.
they have that anxiety and also that same report showed that having that three to six months
With the
the people that they survey, their productivity at work was better just from knowing that they didn't have that financial stress.
I know millionaires.
People that have a lot of money.
that are in a similar position in the sense of
They are stressed and anxious because their overheads are also in the millions every
month and there's a lot of money coming in, but there's a lot of money going out. So they're still sometimes just one or two months away from
Being at zero. Yeah.
um it's a different type of stress because their sort of subjective experience and lifestyle is better.
on a day to day, but
It's interesting that it's it's really relative to uh your your outgoings. Exactly.
What's the what's the fourth point then? So I've got so far I've got
Have a peace of mind fund.
Um which is one month's
Expenses. Number two is pay off high interest rate debt. Number three is build an emergency fund, which is
Three times your
Monthly expenses if you're single and six times if you're in a relationship and and there's people depending on you. Yeah.
Most people actually stay here.
A lot of people just save, save, save, save, save. And I just wanna before we move on to step four, I wanna say that if you're saving you and you wanna save four
One of two things.
The emergency fund and the PISA fund, money fund that we spoke about.
And the second thing
is for any goals that you have in the next five years.
Whether that's a house deposit.
Car pa car deposit.
Other than that, you don't want to be saving that money.
It's gonna be
The value is going to be eaten away quicker.
with inflation if you're just keeping it saved in a bank account.
So that's when you want to move on to step four, and that is investing.
Okay, so you don't want to save you don't want to oversave. You don't want to over save. Know when to stop saving.
And start investing.
And when does one start investing and stop saving?
After they've saved the three to six months of the living expenses. Okay. That's a third step.
At that point, once they've done step one, two, three, this is the point. And the reason why I say this, Stephen, is because
If you start investing before you've got from steps one to three.
And you don't have your savings set aside.
And the market goes down and you have an emergency
You're gonna have to pull that money out at a loss.
Yeah.
Or you're gonna have to go into debt.
Which is why
that was step two, cut the financial bleeding. So it's really important to have steps one, two, three.
Dun.
before you s even think about investing.
Okay.
Those three to six months it's your core living expenses.
So it's
Forget all your spending on the things that you love or the things that make might make life good. It's just the things that you need to absolutely survive. Because if you do do job lose your job.
You're not gonna be out partying and w spending loads of money. You're gonna
Think okay, how do I pay my bills for the next
Three months. How do I survive for the next month?
That's the thing that's gonna cover that off.
Okay.
Right.
Yeah. So it's not like the season ticket at Manchester United or the Lou Vuitton jackets. It's No, no. It's just you're you're you're heating your bills.
Your food.
Survival. Yeah.
So number four is investing.
Number four is investing.
For a while.
We've
Heard of the phrase.
Save
For retirement.
Yeah.
saving for retirement. You cannot save your way to retirement. Well the way cost of living is going
Well the way inflation is going.
With
The price of retirement is gonna cost by the time you get there. Saving is just not enough.
You have to be investing your money.
And
There are two main ways.
That you can invest.
But before I even say that, most people know that they should be messing.
But
They don't do it.
They say I'll do it tomorrow, or next week, or next year.
Or when I'm rich.
When I'm rich.
And then by the time they do start
They missed out on the most powerful lever that they had going for them.
Which is time.
Guys.
one of the most important things when it comes to investing.
Because of the way when you start investing with small recurring amounts, it just compounds over time. So early
Often when it comes to investing, there's two avenues to invest through.
The first
Is through your employer sponsored retirement account.
Mm-hmm. And the second is through your own individual
uh tax advantaged account.
What are those two things?
The first
Is
done through your employer. So what they do is they invest on behalf of you.
In the UK, you're automatically enrolled into it.
In the US, you'll have to check w check with your HR and get yourself enrolled into it. And what this does is you're
company before you it pays you or puts money into your bank account, it takes a small percentage
You could decide how much and it puts it towards investments.
For you, on behalf of you.
Pre-tax. So you're not paying tax on that amount, you're putting it into an investment account, and then that money is compounding for you pre- tax.
Do all employees do this?
Most employees do it, not all employees do it.
And some employers have a match, which means if you put some money in
they will also match that amount that you're putting in.
So how do I know if my employee does this? Check with your H R
And is there a cap? There is a cap to how much they will match. Yeah.
Um, so say if they match up to three percent, then you wanna put in the three percent. But then you could keep going, but at this stage you don't even need to
go over the match at this point of the
The steps.
put in enough to meet that match because you're getting the tax benefit and then you're also getting free money from
Your sponsor plan on top of that.
You don't want to leave that on the table.
And when can I pull that money out?
when you retire retirement. So this is for your retirement.
You're looking after your future self is
Today's you planting seeds for future you. That's what this is about. What about people that say listen, retirement's a long way away?
Yeah. You know, I I'm g w I'm gonna be what, sixty five, seventy five. It's just a long way away. I wanna live a good I wanna l live it up now.
Yeah.
I don't wanna be putting money in a box that I can't open for fifty years.
And you want to spend the money now to live a good life.
Yeah.
I
The most important thing when it comes to money is
Understanding
What you want.
And then making sure your money back those decisions. And I say this because
When I was in the graduate scheme.
There were two very different people who worked in my
Team.
And the first person who sat opposite me on the bank of
seats in front of me. He used to come in in his Ferrari.
And he on Monday morning when we're talking about what we did over our weekend, what we did on the weekend, he'll talk about the Michelin Star restaurants he tried, the last minute trip to Italy, and his computer screen was the next car that he wanted.
And
On my left was Phil.
Who later become my mentor?
And he came in with his pack lunch.
He wore the same shirt tie combo that I could probably remember it and sketch it from memory.
And
He had his holidays.
He had his vacations, but
He was a lot more selective about them.
And
I didn't see it at the time.
But now it's so clear to me that they were chasing very
Different things.
The person opposite me, he was chasing this.
Good life, the stories, the status.
The memories and that was important to him.
And he went for it.
But Phil?
And I visited him just before I came to LA, him, his wife, um
Two kids, dogs, in their countryside home.
And he was enjoying the retired life.
He was
Loving life, he bought what he wanted, which was early retirement, freedom, time
Choice.
Neither path is wrong.
But both paths.
Both people required taking a series of trade offs.
Mm-hmm.
both had to make some sacrifices. And I think that's the thing that people miss. Sometimes it's so easy to say yes to the thing right in front of you.
Because the benefit is there. The benefit is immediate.
You don't realise what you're going to miss out on later on in life.
So the guy that was sat opposite you with the Ferrari, what was the trade offs he was making? He
was probably going to be end up working for
the until he had retirement money to spend.
he was gonna spend his life at banking, but he was gonna live it big, but he wouldn't have the freedom, the choice, the time.
causes spending and his income.
Matched each other.
Mm-hmm.
And so
What I want to just say is for anyone saying, Oh, I just want to live it big
I wanna enjoy the money.
Find out what is the thing that's most important to you.
And make sure your money choice is stack.
That decision because
The wrong choice isn't choosing the wrong path, there's just not knowing that you even had a choice in this whole thing.
Do you think the guy that sat opposite you with the Ferrari?
Was in any way insecure.
Was there an element of
Seeking validation.
There might have been.
Yeah, there might have been that's that that might have been what made him happy, but I think it's also not having the self awareness
to if that made him happy, then by all means. But if it didn't make him happy
And a lot of people do that do this, me included. I've I've gone through this, I've done it.
When you don't know what makes you happy, you end up just doing things.
That gets you the external validation.
And for some people it might mean okay, you know what, I actually do enjoy
this new car. It does bring me happiness.
But for others it might just be a facade.
Later on they
Later on in life they just realise that actually no one really cared.
The only person who cared was me, and although I did it for
Other people.
It's uh now I realise that all the trade offs I had to make as a result of it.
'Cause happiness and external validation
They're like cousins.
Yeah.
Guy.
Do you know what I mean? They're like they look they're kind of like of the same family, but
One of them's the like dysfunctional sibling.
But they kinda look the same.
You know, you look at that guy in his in his Ferrari, you go, Oh, must be happy.
And he comes in and he's probably got a smile on his face because
He's talking about his Ferrari. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what he's built himself on, I guess. But I don't know if that's happiness.
Yeah.
The guy without a Ferrari might be
I think universally most people
What they want is
The freedom and the choice and the time.
I think more people are after that.
And that can make more people happier.
Then any state is simple.
Because when you do end up going down the route of buying something to make your make you happy.
you're on a hedonic treadmill. But then buying the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
And you get those spikes.
Of happiness.
There never is really long lasting fulfilling happiness.
So investing strategy number one is asking your employer
About the investment scheme. Finding out if your employer has yeah an a retirement plan and making sure that you're invested into it enough to
cover the match that they offer. What's strategy number two?
The strategy number two is your own
individual tax advantaged.
investment account. This is at ISA in the UK. And this is where you put your own money
After tax.
into an investment account.
And then the money grows.
Over time.
Tax free.
So when you
Pull it out.
At the end you could
With um
the UK you could pull out in five years and ten years.
Or in retirement.
then you could withdraw that money tax free.
So both of them have taxable advantages. One is when you put the money in, you're getting the tax advantages, the other one's when you draw the money out. But they both have tax advantages. And so you're putting the money in and it's growing tax free. That's really a big deal.
That's huge. That's m that's money that's compounding for you, and you're not paying tax on that.
But there's a limit.
There's a limit, uh annually it's twenty thousand.
But
In the UK or you? It changes um year on year at the moment, I believe, at seven thousand dollars, but
With a quick Google search, you could stay on top of whatever the current limit is for the account or the taxable advantage account that you're investing in.
So I get paid, I put it into my in the UK it's called an Icer. Yeah.
And
the the limit is twenty K. So if I put twenty K in, let's say. Yeah if it goes to a a hundred K because the investments go really well.
Is the whole hundred K tax free. Yeah, you're not paying capital gains tax, you're not paying interest.
I mean sorry, dividends tax.
So pretty much that's the first place everyone should really be investing if they want uh an alternative to investing in their pension.
Yeah.
That's the first thing you want to cap out because of the taxable benefits that come with it.
Is it called a Roth IRA in the US? That's right.
Says max contribution is seven thousand to
eight thousand dollars a year.
If you're fifty or older.
Yeah, the specific amounts depending on
Who you are and standard employee contribution limit of twenty three thousand dollars interesting. Whereas in UK it's just a flat.
twenty thousand is the current
I'm with my
I sub.
This tax free I say that.
everyone is eligible to invest in, do I then have to pick the things it invests in?
Yes.
Okay. This is the next oh we could talk about this now actually. Yeah. So when you are deciding
What to invest in. This is with employer sponsored at.
account the employee sponsored retirement account you actually just choose
What?
risk profile you have and it will do that investing for you. So you'll say, I'm I feel really risky or I'm not very risky at all. Yeah. And it does it for you. And it does it will invest on behalf of you.
So most people don't even realise that they're investing, but they are investing through their company.
If they have that employer sponsor plan.
Then the individual account is you.
doing the investing yourself, you're picking.
What to invest in.
And what shall I invest in?
My
Principle with investing is very, very simple.
And it's just keep it.
Keep it simple and do it for the long term. So I say index funds.
and target date retirement funds is what you want to invest in.
What's up?
An index bonus brow, an index.
Think of it as
A list of companies.
So the S P five hundred is a list of the largest the top five hundred companies to keep this really simple.
Fitzy One Hundred is the top one hundred companies in the lock on the London Stock Exchange.
The fundamental.
Is a pot of money.
That invests.
in the companies on that list.
So by investing in an S P five hundred
you've invested in a small piece of the top five hundred companies.
In the US.
That's what an index fund is. And so even if one company goes down.
You're diversified.
And so there'll be another company that
will and the other companies will bring it back up again.
And what kind of performance can I expect from investing in the S P five hundred?
Historically speaking
Um the long term average has been eight to ten percent
per year depending on the years and the time frame that you're looking at.
That is
different to a one year holding period. It could
go up, it could go down, you just don't know. So the longer you invest four
the chances of you getting that eight to ten percent on average.
Increase.
Is it to ten percent gonna make me rich, though, Nisha?
How long are you doing it for?
You tell me.
If you have a lump of a mountains that you're like, Okay, you know what, I have two thousand
That I want to invest, what should I do with that?
I'm taking me five years to invest this.
I would say
One thousand nine hundred of that.
Don't invest it.
One hundred of it invest.
So I'll I'll say why I'm saying this a hundred.
I want
you to invest it, for anyone listening, I want you to listen. I want you to invest that because
I want you to see
And feel
The emotions when you see your money go up over time.
Sure, it's gonna be small. It's not gonna
Make you rich investing that.
But you're gonna
Instill that good habit early on.
And you're gonna remember that.
Because the remaining amount
You're gonna put that towards
increasing your income.
That's the first thing you're gonna do. Think of
Your income.
As a river.
And your specific milestones.
Lifelists as buckets across the river.
So you have retirement, you have your
House deposit, you have your car payment.
That you're all saving up for.
Those buckets will fill up faster, the quicker.
And wider that river is.
That is your income that's coming through.
If you don't have much of an income coming through, th those buckets are gonna take ages to fill up.
That's why I say if it's taken you a long time to save that amount, I actually would recommend you putting that money towards increasing your income first.
Before
investing it. If, however, you have disposable income, you have an a reoccurring amount
That you can invest.
Monthly.
Use that to your advantage.
harness the power of long term.
compounding growth because that is the thing that is going to make you rich.
Sure, it will take twenty five, thirty years, but that is leverage that you don't get through your day job. It's your money working for you without you having
To be there.
So you would suggest if you're
really at that early level to focus on increasing your income.
Investing and increasing your income. Yeah, that's the first thing.
If you're figuring out, Okay, I need to increase my income, it's taken me a while to
earn this amount.
And I only have a lump sum of two thousand, five thousand, focus on increasing your income.
Yeah, that's what I would say.
And how does one focus on increasing their income?
There are a couple of ways to do.
This so

Easiest way.
To increase your income?
His
Asking for a pay rise.
Increasing responsibility.
the work that you do, your contributions and
saying to your boss or your manager, this is the value that I've bought.
This is the responsibility I've that I've taken on.
This is what the market is paying for a similar role.
And this is why
A pay wise is fair.
The other option Did you ever ask for a pay raise? Multiple times.
Multiple, multiple times.
When you're in investment banking. Yeah.
It's one of those things where
If you don't ask, you don't get.
Of course you'll get butt
You
Sitting there and thinking the hard work is gonna show.
Without you asking for it. It's
Unlikely.
It's gonna have to
Build a case and
Say, okay, these are the things that I've done.
This is the things that we said we were gonna do or I wanted to work on in my performance review.
Which is what I had.
Get to the end of the performance review and these are the things that I actually did and this is where I went above and beyond.
So if I'm your Bosnish, if we just re
Replay one of those conversations you had. Yeah.
You assign a performance review.
And w what did you say to me?
I would say hey, Steven. Hey.
Three months ago.
Well, six months ago we spoke about
Um
The things that I needed to do.
To
Get promoted, or to get a pay rise.
And we mentioned XYZ.
And I've done all of those things here.
And here is
The feedback that I've got.
Here is where I've gone above and beyond.
And this is some extra things that
other people the three sixty feedback that I've done and that this is what it says.
Yeah. And that's when I'll say
Do you think that this is
The bracket that we discussed, do you think that's fair?
Research shows that women are
Much less likely to ask for a pay rise.
And when they do, they are less likely to get one compared to men.
Is that kind of what you found?
Yeah, I've seen those facts and I think it's
Really such a shame.
The
when a women ask for a pay rise, it may not be seen.
In the same way as when a male counterpart asked for the pay rise.
And
The fact is that
We can control.
Are the being prepared.
Having
the book of all the things that you've done, but I recommend, and this is things that I've done when I was an organization, or when I felt like
even I was being paid less than my male counterpart is speaking
Firstly, if there's a H R team
In your
department speaking to them and asking, Am I online or am I aligned?
To the average.
for my department and for what my role is.
They can give you a really good guideline as to whether you are underpaid or whether you
deserve a bump to be more aligned.
Two
The general pay.
And
in that role.
And the second thing is
have an ally or have someone in your workplace that you'd always speak to, whether it's a mentor,
Whether it's a colleague
And
It's worth always
speaking to other people about money is such a taboo topic. Yeah.
We hate it. We hate talking to someone else about
their salary, what they're making.
But
The more financial transparency.
that we encourage the more we can learn from each other. Yeah.
Openly ask the person next to you, Hey
This is what you get paid. As much as hard as that is.
Open up that conversation.
But the other
way to increase your income is actually through switching
Jobs.
Switching companies.
Because there's so much research.
That's been done.
And the most popular one is actually one cited by Forbes.
That says
People who stay at the same
company for two years or more.
on average earn fifty percent less over their lifetime.
And I've made a video.
On
My salary year by year.
Over the last
over the nine years that I spent in banking.
And the biggest pay jumps that I saw.
Or from switching.
Companies.
So
Those are the the two ways that I would actually say, Yeah, increase your income by asking for more or by switching.
I do think one of the most effective ways that I've seen as well is just looking at
The industry as well. And presenting a case from the industry. And people have done that to me several times. They've
over the last ten years they've come to me and said the industry
pay for my role and my seniority level in this part of the world, in this city, is this, I'm currently on this.
Um
Is can we have a conversation?
About about this to rectify it.
And
I can't think of an instance where I haven't been receptive to that.
Especially if it's justified, you know,'cause actually sometimes the employer doesn't know. The employer doesn't know that they might be underpaying you.
Um that's a a genuine possibility. I know that sounds like crazy talk, but
Sometimes employees don't know because a lot of roles that we're hiring for these days are new roles. They're not roles that existed ten years ago.
Even in podcasting, like there's
It's hard to find.
benchmarks for what people were paid in podcasting ten years ago.
for different roles that now exist in our industry. So
It's worth having a good convers uh an honest conversation. And I do think
I do think from the employer standpoint, it's worth
Leading with
The value that you've brought, like you've said.
Versus
Blunt demands.
Because humans are human beings.
And you can turn someone's nose up or their back up by the way in which you deliver your message, but delivering it from an evidence based perspective.
And saying this these are the kind of the accomplishments that I've made.
And these are the responsibilities I've taken on and this is like the industry
Um average and I love being here.
I want to stay here.
Um, so I was wondering if it'd be possible to have a conversation about
My salary.
I'd receive that very, very well.
And even aligning it to
your company's objectives. This is what I was doing. Yeah, exactly. Here is what I've done aligned to your
Objects that you're looking for.
Exactly.
And you you talked about um
saving for a house as well. Is do you see buying a house as a good investment?'Cause it is it is the first thing most people do, right?
It's like the first thing we're told is part of the like script of life. When you get some money
Save it up.
Get a mortgage.
A lot of our view about
Buying or renting.
or buying a house.
is actually formed from what we saw our parents do.
And what we saw the generation before us do.
So
Even
Looking at my life.

The way my parents thought.
They came to
The UK as immigrants.
And when they bought their first house.
It was like the epitome of success.
They
Had the sink.
That they can
That represented wealth for them.
That they could touch, they could see, they could feel.
It represented stability, security, and then when
We moved out of that terraced home into another home. It was between two stations in a catchment area, so me and my sisters got access to better schools.
That was then their happiness. That was then
Their goal and the milestone.
Achieved.
And
For the previous generation
And still
The way people see it today.
when p people say oh we need to build buy a house for wealth building. It's
Because a big factor of it is
that it was a forced
Mechanism of saving.
So
When you're buying a house or paying for a mortgage
Y that's not optional. You have to pay it.
You then can't
Then spend that money on anything else. And so as
A result, those monthly payments are going towards building your equity.
And building this house's value.
And
As a
byproduct is building wealth for you.
So for someone listening to this
If they're hearing this conversation, they say okay, you know what, I have a I have a goal to buy
And they run the numbers.
It makes fun sense for them. They're doing it for the long term.
then I'll say that's a really good goal to have. Go for it.
But
I think we put a lot of pressure.
On people today that
they need to buy a house and as soon as they start working that they need to get onto that property ladder.
So if you're listening to this and thinking that that
I don't
Have a goal to buy a house.
Then
There are also ways to build wealth that don't require you to be in the real estate game.
I think there's something psychological about paying rent that you never see again that makes you think that it's a a terrible idea. Yeah.
And sometimes when you look at the mortgage payment versus the rental payment, you go, Well, they're the same and I'll end up owning this
chunk of concrete.
So I might as well go for the chunk of concrete.
Yeah.
But
If you are choosing to rent and actually
There's been studies that's not in there.
Almoс nine out of twelve.
regions in the UK and the same applies for other areas in the world as well. It's
Renting is
Or can be cheaper than buying in that equivalent neighborhood.
And so if you are renting
And you're saving money.
on that difference, then you've got to be disciplined and sensible enough to know
That
You need to invest the difference.
What you mean?
Fifteen hundred.
And to get that mortgage and you've checked the mortgage payments and do you've realised that with the interest that you're going to be paying on the mortgage.
All the other things that come into buying a house, so the stamp duty that you're paying, the property tax, the repairs, the maintenance, the insurance.
If you factor in the costs of both.
And you
Do run the numbers and you say okay, renting is cheaper.
Then bank.
That difference
Is what you want to be
Able to invest.
It's kind of a way for you to say
I'm creating my own forced mechanism of saving.
This is my own version of a mortgage.
I'm the man I'm saving, I'm gonna set up an investment account.
And I'm gonna automate it and I'm gonna put money into it.
Every single month.
And that's the way you're gonna build wealth.
That's just
as legitimate. And actually I've I
The I went onto the property ladder.
And the money that I put in towards that flat.
hasn't grown.
as near as much as the money that I made through the stock market.
By investing in the S P five hundred.
So tell me about that. So you
You bought a property in London or somewhere in the world? In North London. Okay.
Um
Okay.
And I bought it in twenty seventeen.
Okay.
Yeah.
And it's gone up in value, I'd say about
Ten percent.
Okay.
I've had about eight years.
Then you compare that to the stock market. So
Sure, there's a number side of it where people think, Okay, I need to buy a house to build wealth, but that's what I'm trying to explain. That
Actually if you save that money and you invest it, you might be
Better off financially.
But coming back to your point, yes, there's that psychological
Thing of okay, do I want to
pay that money on rent or do I want to
Bye.
The other psychological part of it is also
the comfort of knowing that you have somewhere and this is
A big reason as to why I bought
The comfort of knowing that no matter what happens, you have this place
It's yours.
The landlord conserve, you notice.
You can do whatever you want to the
Flat.
Within certain restrictions and rules.
And
You have this piece of the earth that belongs to you.
And so that's the psychological comfort that came from it. Sure we could talk about the numbers and what investing will do and how much you can make on that, but
The bit that
often gets forgotten about is the invisible side.
Which is
The peace of mind.
the psychological comfort of just owing
H
So
Can I ask how much did your
Apartment cost in London.
Five.
Thirty?
So if you spent five hundred and thirty K on it. Yeah. Um presumably on like a mortgage or something at the time. Yeah, I was on a mortgage. So five hundred and thirty K, it's gone up ten percent.
Yeah.
It's got up.
About fifty K.
About fifty K. So it's now worth five eighty.
But if you put
that amount of money into the S P five hundred.
Well the thing was the house
And a flat is you could use the mortgage and you wouldn't put that full amount in it because you had the mortgage, but if you put that deposit amount into it.
Yeah.
The deposit amount of it. Yeah, the the amount that you would put on just the down payment.
um the stamp duty that I would have also paid if I save that amount and then put it
Put that amount.
Whatever it was.
And invest in that.
That's uh
comparison that I would have made. So how much was that?
In total that you paid into the
Um.
I put about five
Fifty, I think, K.
I guess.
And probably the net return on that.
It's got
Ten percent.
Fifty five K. Yeah.
In the S P five hundred in the same time.
has delivered roughly ten to twelve percent per year on average.
It has more than doubled in value since two thousand seventeen.
So you would have probably got
There you go. Pretty incredible return on the S P five hundred. Even in the last five years, the S P five hundred has grown ninety percent. Yeah, makes sense. So it's almost doubled in the last five years alone, which which means you would have basically doubled your money just investing it in an index fund. Are you looking at that from
The lows of the Covid.
It has more than doubled in value since twenty seventeen, driven by strong growth in technology despite the Covid crash and twenty twenty two pullback.
Yeah, that's case in point.
That we we're
We're looking at
Building wealth just through one mechanism.
That
feels like it's urgent and needs to be done by everyone.
Actually if you're looking at
A purely from a numbers and building wealth perspective.
There are other ways.
To do that.
My brother is
was an investment banker, he now works full time um helping with my money and helping in my my companies. He went to L S very smart guy.

the buffing in the family.
He always talks to me about this time opportunity cost.
So when I told him I said I want to buy this house in Cape Town.
He was like
Yeah, this is gonna cost you X millions. Um, think about the opportunity cost. Yeah.
And he always every time I say I want to do this, he's like, think about the opportunity cost and he he basically stands in the way of it.
What is opportunity cost? And why should why should p people be thinking about this when they're
Spending their money.
So every pound or dollar that we spend
Is
One less that we could use on something else.
And that is the opportunity cost in essence.
And we often
Don't think about life in terms of opportunity costs.
Because we only look at the thing that is in front of us.
So your brother was telling you about
How you can make more money.
investing somewhere else. But what you saw is this one thing in front of you and you thought, No, I don't even know if I'm gonna make this money elsewhere. I don't know if that's gonna happen. This thing is right in front of me. And that's the thing with the with opportunity costs is always a a trade off of what you can see and what you can't see.
But with every decision you make, there's something else that you're saying no to. It's coming at the cost of something else.
I was thinking about that as you you were talking and just a
give a bit of colour to this for people at home.
And a good example of opportunity costs. So like yesterday I bought lunch for the team.
Right, and the lunch cost a hundred dollars. It was like this salad bar in in Los Angeles. Cost me a hundred dollars. Fine, hundred dollars, who cares? But then
When I think about the numbers you shared earlier on.
If I'd taken that hundred dollars and put it into the S P five hundred.
in forty years, assuming I got ten percent return a year, which is like the average of the S P.
That is almost five thousand dollars.
So in terms of opportunity cost, buying the team lunch for a hundred dollars
has effectively cost me an opportunity
five thousand dollars that I would have had
Um presuming
That return.
in forty years from now. So that lunch yesterday actually cost me potentially
Roughly five thousand dollars.
Yeah. And
I guess for you it's
That's the last time the team may get much.
On the other side
You might have missed out on how the team felt.
Going to that lunch.
And the invisible benefits that
You might have got from that. Whether it was just the memories.
At that moment in time, whether it's a motivation.
Whether it's the culture that you're
Bringing in.
That's the thing that
You might miss out on if you choose that five thousand dollars in X years of time.
And I guess it's a balancing act as well. Like do you know I was thinking about the guy you mentioned with the Ferrari.
And
If he were to die today.
One could argue.
That in fact he played life correctly. Absolutely.
Because he lived it. He saw it. He did it.
And this is I think.
the difference you see in people. Some people have that long term view and they think, No, I want my money when I'm sixty five or seventy, my pension fund.
And other people play a bit more short term in their life and go, I just want to have good experiences now.
And so it's hard to understand who's right because we don't know how the story ends, I guess. Yeah, and I think there's a fine line, but there's also a way to balance living in the present that we're planning with
For the future.
by understanding that you are going to allocate a specific amount of the money that comes in towards
The here and now.
And then the rest, you are going to look
Use towards the future you.
Because there's something very rewarding about spending now
When you know.
The future U has already been looked after.
It makes you
Want to spend it.
Without thinking, Oh what is this coming
at the opportunity cost of.
Do you think people should buy a house if their objective is to make money?
Or do you think there are
other opportunities like the S P five hundred, like using your tax free ISA.
A lot of people listening probably don't have
Or on their way to building a deposit or
working the way to have the money for a deposit.
If they're putting themselves under pressure and they think that they're just buying a house
To build wealth.
I would say actually look into
Investing through that stocks and shares.
I saw.
As a start, that is tax free.
If you haven't even started investing through that stocks and shares ISA, which by the way is seventy five percent.
Roughly of people in the UK aren't investing.
So yeah, I would definitely s say
Open that up first.
And do you think
one should split a proportion of their investments into different
Categories of risk.
'Cause you've got like crypto on the uh one side of it, which sometimes feel like being at roulette table, and then you've got
Things that are typically safe like the S P five hundred.
I'm gonna say with the stocks and shares, actually, when you invest in and a lot of people also wanna invest in crypto, but they also wanna invest in individual stocks as well. Should I go after the next?
big winning company stock. Should I invest in this stock? Um what I wanna say is that there's two parts
To
Think about
The returns.
But also the behavioral concepts.
How you feel.
When it comes to investing because
You
One of the biggest impacts on market performance
is your contributions but also your behavior.
So
Fidelity.
Did a
Re

People who
Invested
In funds.
Underperformed.
The phone that they were in.
It sounds impossi it sounds ridiculous. It sounds impossible. How can you be underperforming a fund that you're in?
But then when they looked into it.
They found that
When
fear and anxiety to cope. Oh when the market dropped.
These people bought, sold, bought, sold. They essentially dance in and out of the font.
as a result underperforming the the fund that they were already holding.
Okay, so it went when it went down they sold. Yeah, when it went
sold when they went up they bought. And so
What you want to do is you want to invest in something that makes you buy and hold.
Fidelity.
looked into the groups of people that had invested in their funds to see which group
Performed the best.
And when they looked into it they found one group
significantly outperformed all other groups when it came to investment returns.
And that was dead people.
Dead people outperform the living.
When it came to investment returns.
Because
They didn't touch.
Their investment account.
They just
Said it, forget it.
They didn't chase the next company's stock. They didn't go after the thing that's gonna go up really quickly and down really quickly.
And that all ties into the behavior.
Your
Not letting your emotions
And by the way, this they found out the second best performing group were the people who forgot that they had a fund in the first place. So when it comes to deciding
What allocation you want your portfolio to be. It's understanding, okay, what is gonna give you the returns, but also what is the thing that's gonna help you s stay the course.
Even when the market goes
And drops.
What will make you feel like, okay, I can still stay and hold my position?
That's how to decide what kind of percentage portfolio you want.
For yourself.
And I've done that with my portfolio.
It's
with crypto, it's less than two percent of my overall portfolio. I've invested the amount that I feel like
It won't make a difference if I lose it.
And if it goes to the moon, great.
And that's how
When I say
somewhere here, the last thing I wanna do is encourage people before they've even set up the financial foundations.
to invest in something that
can go up and come go down when seventy five percent of the
population isn't investing.
Mm-hmm.
And the reason why they're not investing
is because and I keep hearing this from time and time again from the people I speak to is uh
Either they're really scared that they're gonna lose money.
Or they don't know where to start.
And so
When it comes to
Losing money, I always say
Do the foundations first, set up your portfolio there and then
move on to speculative assets should you want to go down that path.
I remember the first time I invested and I I downloaded this app and I put some money in there and then I watched it.
And I was watching it so much and it was going up and down and up and down. And like three, four months later
I sold it.
And I didn't really make a re I think I lost a couple of
A couple of hundred quid or whatever.
And then I watched that same
Investment.
over the next five, six, seven years just go
To the moon.
Yeah. It went up. And I remember thinking of I should have just kept it in there. And then the best investment I ever made
correlates to what you were saying because I lost my password.
I like lost the password to log in.
Yeah. And so I couldn't do anything about it anyway. And I watched it and it went down and up and down and up and down and up. But over five years it went really, really high. And so when I first started investing in crypto and I invested in Ethereum and now Bitcoin,
My strategy was the same. My strategy was get the the private keys and give half of them to one person that I trust and half of them to the other person that I trust. And even if I want to, I can't do anything about it.
And that's proven to be
One of my greatest returns in investing because I just
I don't even know what's going on with it, I'm not paying attention. Yeah.
And that's the thing, you've just taken the motions out of the equation.
Yeah.
There's nothing else that controls your
financial decisions. Other than
Logic.
Must have been in my early twenties.
I needed the money.
Like I didn't have the emergency fund or a piece of mine fund, so when it started to go down a little bit
naturally you kind of panic.
So I think in that
the second season of life where I start investing in Ethereum and Bitcoin. It didn't really matter if I lost the money.
So it made it easier to hold my nerves. And I think nerves are such a huge part of investing. Um
It goes to what you said earlier, like it's worth taking a hundred dollars or a hundred pounds or whatever you can, which is a really inconsequential number of money, and putting it into some kind of S P five hundred or even a stock just to feel that. Almost to like train your psychology and emotions of like what the ups feel like and what the down feel like. Yeah, exactly.
So your investment strategy.
Your portfolio, you mentioned it there.
Yeah. What does it look like?
It's
Forty percent funds.
Okay, what kind of funds?
Index funds.
S P five hundred. Uh I also do international markets, so UK
Um so imagine
Developed.
Uh across all sectors.
I was today.
And I keep it very, very diversified.
SP five hundred to target date retirement funds.
That
automatically rebalance.
So targeted retirement fund for anyone who's listening and w wondering what it is. It's essentially
A
Fund that has
Different types of investments.
with an app.
So
You could go on to a platform of your choice that you use to invest.
And you could type in target date retirement fund and at the end of every fund will have a year.
And so you want to pick the year that is the closest to the year that you plan to retire. So if you plan to retire in twenty fifty, that's the year that you'll
Pick.
And what that fund does is it
rebalances
And the
the percentage of different investments changes to become more conservative as you approach retirement.
So it starts to protect you a little bit more. Exactly.
So it goes risk off. It kind of goes less risky or it becomes less risky.'Cause you don't want to be investing the same when you don't have
that much time as you if you're investing in your twenties, thirties, you have enough time to ride out the stock market waves.
So that's forty percent of your portfolio? That's forty percent, thirty percent is real estate.
Okay.
In all parts of the world?
No, just in the UK. Just in the UK. Yeah.
Then I'll say about
Twenty five percent I'm putting back into my business.
That moment.
Yeah.
And then the remaining is between crypto.
And at cash, cash and cash reserves.
Yeah.
What about investing in yourself?
'Cause'cause you know, we think about education and skills and stuff like that. Should we be investing a small amount of money into our
Selfs in some capacity.
One hundred
percent, I think you just don't stop investing in yourself.
at any point in time it goes down to
Increasing your income.
Increasing your skills, increasing your value.
Which then has a knock and effect on
Everything else that
You're investing into
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You actually you made a video.
Um about
Forty books that
you've read that improve your own financial literacy. If there was one book that you recommend people to read,
that you think is most accessible and will advance their financial literacy in the most profound way, that did that for you.
What book would you recommend?
Think and grow rich.
Find a podian hill.
It's not
Actually about
Financial literacy, but it's around
Money mindset.
And
The other book to start with.
when it comes to financial literacy, is also the richest man in Babylon.
When people don't learn about money.
Is because they find it quite
Boring.
And not very interesting. So
Richest man in Babylon does a good job in intertwining a novel.
Into
financial literacy concepts.
I've not read that book. I've heard a lot about it though.
It's
The underlying principles when it comes to money don't really change much.
And it's really starts at the basics.
when it comes to saving and spending. So it's a it's a good starting point.
Are there any other principles of
of building wealth that we haven't talked about. I mean we we haven't talked about
Payday routines.
Um, but I've had you talk at at length about what we should do when we get paid every single month.
Some of the things we've talked about already, like uh
Knowing your reference point?
Which is
Was point one, right?
That was your piece of mind find. I guess knowing your reference point is essentially just
Understanding where your finances break down and what buckets they fall into.
So I would
Actually say this is really important for anyone to know and it's the
Three numbers.
It's called the sixty five twenty fifteen.
And it's three numbers that anyone should know when it comes to
Money.
And their own personal finance.
Okay, sixty five twenty fifteen. Okay.
And the way it works is you wanna the idea of it is to take your
Net income.
This is your take home pay.
after you pay taxes, not the number on your job description.
the number after you paid state contribution, all other taxes, and you want to split that into three buckets.
The fundamental
which is your core living expenses, everything that is essential to your
Living costs.
Mortgage or rent.
Utilities.
The groceries
minimum debt payments.
Car payments.
All of that should make up
Approximately.
Sixty five percent.
of your net income.
Okay.
The twenty percent.
That's for your fund spending.
These are
So
The
Pottery painting that you booked last minute.
the Gasterway tickets, the Pilates class.
That should make up about twenty percent.
of your take home pay.
And the remaining fifteen percent.
That's for your future you.
That's today's you.
Planting seeds for tomorrow's year.
And that should go to savings, investments, and extra debt payments.
And those are three good numbers.
that I think everyone should know and understand is a good starting point.
To try and benchmark your numbers.
О
Income.
Against those spending categories.
I would say, however, if you are someone who's living closer to paycheck to paycheck, those numbers might look slightly different.
And it might be that
You
You want to dull down that fund percentage.

saved over for the future you, so you can continue contributing to your savings investments.
Or if you're finding that your housing and mortgaging is
Higher than
Eighteen, ninety percent.
Start with
when it comes to future you start with what you can.
Whether it's
saving two percent, three percent starts somewhere, you just want to build that habit.
And in terms of spending.
Should I you mentioned cars earlier and we talked about houses briefly. Should I be buying a car or should I be leasing a car?
A car is
Let me just say it's one of the two areas that most people overspend.
And
It's because we don't just buy the numbers.
We buy the emotions of the car, how the car might make us feel, how we will look like in the car.
The family memories we'll create in the car.
And I know'cause I did this when I um
Got my
First job, the very first thing I did was upgrade my car. I went into a
Car show room.
found a car that I thought I'd look cool in.
Walked out with
The car an hour later, drove out with the car.
And didn't run my numbers.
Then
check if I could afford the monthly payments.
And for the next couple of months was figuring out how I was gonna make the rest of my finances meet.
And
Car dealerships know this, so they all manipulate the monthly payments in a way that makes you buy more car than you can afford.
And if you don't understand how the numbers work, this is probably one of the
Quickest ways.
to destroy your chance of building real wealth.
The way I recommend buying a car is to
Buy something that's three to five years old.
Straight.
And
I say three to five years old because
At that point it's enough.
is it's depreciated enough at someone else's expense and won't depreciate as much during the time that you have it.
But if you are someone who
Is wealthy.
And you don't mind taking that hit on the depreciation?
Or you want a nice car every couple of years and you want to trade it in.
And you don't mind.
the fact that it's not the best financial choice.
Than lease.
That's how I think of the buy and the lease situation. Then you also want to think about
how much can you reasonably afford as a monthly payment when it comes to
um the proportion of your income that you're spending towards that.
So what you
Do you buy new cars or do you
No, I actually at the moment it was more economical for me to get a taxi everywhere, so I don't have a car.
So you've run the numbers and thought.
The amount I'm travelling away from home.
Makes more sense just to
Yeah, I'm saving on the
For me and
It makes sense for this point in my life. It might be
In five years, ten years time, that I want an ISA car.
And I don't want to restrain myself from
having it. But for now, with the numbers, I can use that number that amount.
Somewhere else.
What about other things we spend money on? Wh where are the big sort of traps in spending?
that that we haven't mentioned. So we talked about cars, talked about houses.
What about uh
iPhones and iPads and technology.
I think there's
traps and spending in almost everything that we do that we don't even see. Going to a grocer shop, which is
A fundamental living.
Cost for everyone.
You're fighting against
marketing to keep your money in your pocket.
You walk to a shop.
A grocery store. They have the eggs, the milk.
The bread right in the back.
Which makes you walk through the the shop to get there.
They have the premium products eye level.
The
Sweets for the kids.
at the kid's eye level. So these are also areas where you don't even realize that you're overspending because there's these subliminal marketing messages around you.
So
That's one area where people spend where it's just like spending on the necessities.
But not even realising that there's a way to
Um
Save there.
So what do you suggest going in going into those supermarkets with a
Shopping list. Yeah, I mean that's one way, shop going into uh going into the sh uh going into the supermarket's the shopping list. Also checking if you're s shopping at the cheapest supermarket near you.
I mean shopping at M S and
Wait rose is different to shopping at Audi.
If that's where you wanna save your money and you're more paycheck to paycheck and think about where where to save your money.
Other areas where people overspend is
Everything now can be bought.
As an impulse buy.
You could buy now, pay later. There's
Apple Pay on your phone.
There's so many debt.
financing methods that
Make you pay more.
And so just understanding.
Running this budget, running these numbers, understanding what you actually have available to spend towards these things.
is a really good way of fighting against
everything else that is trying to take your money away from you.
What about like iPhones and iPads and stuff like that? Do you think
People should be getting new ones or
The way I think about this is the law of diminishing returns. When you first get
Something.
Doesn't really
big impact on your happiness.
When you
first get you like a an iPhone and you don't have an iPhone. That's good. That's big. You're like a
Walking around, I find this pretty cool.
Then with every upgrade.
That
Diminishing return starts to plateau.
It's not as exciting. So
Actually thinking about do I need the next upgrade?
Or is that
Something I could pass up on. But always remembering that
The first time you buy something is worth it.
The upgrades after that.
the happiness doesn't increase as much.
And what about
Hair nails.
dyeing your hair and all those kinds of things.
Trying to sacrifice those kinds of things as well, or I'm not in this camp of
trying to save money on everything. I really do believe
that you should have a percentage that you
allocate towards the fun things in your life and not being restrictive about what it is that
You love. If it is getting your nails done, getting your hair done.
Yeah.
Getting a new bag.
Go for it.
Enjoy it.
А з ломка сайта'с на оpportunity cost.
Oh
You in five years. Or you in ten years.'Cause you talk about this term lifestyle inflation.
Yeah. Which I've never heard before. What is lifestyle inflation?
Lifestyle inflation is when
As your income.
Increases.
Your spending also increases.
In a way that
You think
might be necessary.
But actually
They are all
necessities being hidden away as just
Upgrades and luxuries.
It's essentially your spending rising at the same place that your income is increasing. And what you want to do to
counteract lifestyle inflation is you want to make sure that your spending increases. Sure. You want to treat yourself, you want to reward yourself, but not at the same pace that your income increases. You want to make sure that the gap
Between your income and your spending.
Is getting wider.
As you earn more money, not narrower.
What's the best way for someone to track their money?'Cause there's lots of figures here. Some people aren't mathematically literate. Yeah.
Um
Many people don't want to be in Excel documents. Are there simple tools or an app?
That I could use to track my
Spending and saving and income.
So many bank accounts nowadays have
Categorise spending within them.
Mm-hmm. And it'll tell you what you're spending and what you're spending on.
So if you are someone that
Even me.
I don't say it every single month and
track every single transaction, but I do have a ballpark figure in my mind based on my banking apps about what I'm spending and where.
And the key isn't
Oh sh
Should I be allocating this much here?
I've overspent here. Oh, I spent a little bit more on my
trip that I needed to. The key is are you saving?
Ten percent.
Minimum.
Of your salary.
Whatever you decide to do with everything else, that's up to you.
And when you think about it that way.
You think of
This whole budgeting.
Managing finances is a lot more freeing.
There's something that's restricting you.
If you're someone who doesn't wanna sit in the spreadsheet, spit in the numbers, just think what am I saving and what am I spending?
Am I sp saving the right percentage?
Cool.
Doesn't matter how I'm allocating the rest.
That's what I recommend for those people. Oh, they're like budget trackers that are already built that I can use because you know, my bank might tell me how much I'm spending, but it doesn't necessarily
Th that doesn't necessarily inform me in real time of how much money I have left. Yeah.
I mean I have a budget tracker which actually tells you in real time it's not connected to your bank accounts.
But when you put your numbers into it it will tell you what you have left.
to spend for the remaining of the month.
And what is that? Is that an Excel document? It is an Excel document, yeah.
Can I have your Excel document? Yeah, sure.
I'll link it below so people can use it if they want to use it.
What about um money and love?
And how these two worlds collide.
Because I I was speaking to uh Kevin O'Leary recently on the show and he was telling me that one of the reasons people end up in divorce is because of
Financial.
insecurities and pain and friction.
and a arguments. Do you get a lot of messages from people about money, love, joint bank accounts, and all these kinds of things?
I have a lot of questions.
About
From people asking firstly how to
Bring up the conversation of money.
And secondly
How to manage their finances with a partner.
In a way that
Keeps the autonomy.
But still makes it feel like you have
A sharfe.
What are those big questions?
When it comes to how to bring up a conversation, I guess with your partner.
This is really important because
The top two reasons why people
argue or what couples argue.
Is money and sex.
And when it comes
To money.
It's
Lack of transparency.
Lack of openness.
And
Lack of shared
Goals together.
And
That's not
to say, yeah, you should go on a first date and ask someone what their credit score or debt utilization is.
But it is to say.
Having those conversations
Asking the right questions.
In a way that can help you understand someone else's
Money beliefs.
In a way that can
help you create a financial life together.
So what should I be asking my partner?
I'm your partner.
What you what do you say to me and when'd you say it?
I think there's levels of the questions that you could ask someone.
Mm. And if you're just getting to know someone.
You can
Awesome something.
Along the lines of
If you found
Or if you won.
Ten thousand tomorrow.
How would you spend it?
Lampegini.
That will tell you a lot about what they value.

So then that that automatically tells you that they probably value status.
Yeah.
If you say
Oh, I'll probably save it.
If I said Lamborghini, I'm gonna rent a Lamborghini f for two months. Yeah.
W should you then do about that?
You take that information and you understand this is what the person values. Yeah. Because money is just a symbol for what the person values.
And if they if they want to spend it on a Lamborghini, that that's not to say you should then
judge the way they're spending, but you take that information, you understand what do you want to do with it. Is this

you want to have a life with.
Okay.
Is there a is there a good answer to that question? I think it's comes down to understanding because even if someone says, I just want to save
You might think okay, this is great, m stability, security, but you might be someone who wants experiences.
You wanna spend on
flights to take your friends and family away around the world.
So it's just about understanding how your
money values fit in with their money values and are they completely in conflict with each other or are they actually do they marry up and can you see
yourselves creating a financial life together. Because if someone's like, Oh, I'll spend all my money on
Uh like status symbols and
not save anything and you're a saver, that is gonna be a cause for arguments.
Yeah.
Especially if uh
You get bad news.
And things get tight.
Yeah, someone loses their job and
Then when things get tight you're really gonna be th focused on the money.
Or you have kids and you know any sort of pressure on the budget.
Exactly. And like other questions and that I those kind of questions come down further further down the line actually, I guess, as well, when it comes to
financial goal setting. But I guess there's another question you could ask someone and is
And it comes back to what we spoke about at the start of the podcast is
Where did your beliefs about money come from?
Because so much of the way we think about money is inherited.
Through
What we saw our parents do.
What we saw during our upbringings.
And it has an impact on the way we are with money.
It might be that we're an impulse spender.
As a result of it, it might be that we see debt in a certain way, or it might be that we're really frugal. But
What that does is that opens up a conversation of
Empathy.
And compassion.
Rather than judgment.
And that
automatically can lead to more conversations about okay, how do you view debt?
How can we manage our finances?
based on your views and my views and how can we work together as a whole
To make this sustainable.
And then the the next
question is like when it comes to
family and kids and how you're gonna manage your finances there. That's when it comes to like the third layer of questions.
Well you ask asking someone what does our two year, five year, ten year goal look like and
If we were to merge our finances together, what would that look like?
Should we merge our finances together, Nisha?
My straight answer to this is no.
We have
Very unique.
individual money personalities.
And habits.
And we're getting married later in life, where these personalities are really set in stone.
And do you know how they say
opposites attract in a relationship.
The same goes with money. Savers typically attract spenders, and spenders typically attract savers.
So if you have a save a saving.
And then a spander who's
spending the savings, that's gonna be a cause for arguments regardless of if there's financial shortcomings.
Mm-hmm.
So what I recommend
Is having a team fund.
And then a me font.
T Bund.
Is for
the grown up adult stuff.
Uh
Joint expenses.
Mortgage rent bills.
Council tax.
And
This isn't fifty fifty.
You both paint that proportionate.
of your income.
Ninety person of your
Household income that you're making, you pay ninety percent of the expenses.
Your
Bringing in thirty percent of the househome, you're paying for thirty percent of the expenses.
That's a team fund. And then you have the me fund. And this is for your own individual personality to stay alive, your own money habits.
No one else can see the way you're spending.
Here.
If you have a mature addiction, go for it. If you want to buy that nice watch, go for it.
You can do whatever you want.
Spend this money however you want. If you want to save it, save it.
But that way you're creating that
unity, but also having that autonomy. And I think this is really, really important.
For both parties, women and men, but specifically for women, they wanna you want them to have their
Independent access to their finances.
And
I've seen situations I've spoken to people who have merged their finances.
And
It's
When the relationship has turned sour.
Or unsafe.
They haven't been able to
know what to do because they haven't had the independent access to their money.
Do you think people should be getting prenups?
Did you get pre you're married, aren't you?
I am. I think everyone has a prenup.
Whether
You know about
Or not.
Penups, you could either have your
own customized prenup.
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
You could have
Or the state.
Is telling you.
as
What's gonna happen if you decide to go your separate ways?
Depending on where you are.
The prenup.
Holds different values.
So some areas might not look beyond what the couple
Agree.
And they just say, Okay, this is what the couples agreed, this is
How the
Finances are gonna be split.
or the assets gonna be split.
In the UK and I'm not a
divorce law or anything, I don't believe that the
Pren up is
fully legally binding.
Mm-hmm.
So it's useful to have in some circumstances, but
It's
The courts will still look past it.
And see what is fair as a couple.
This term passive income is quite a popular term.
What is passive income?
The way I see passive income it's money that you do not have to work
Or to invest.
Time in.
To make.
And
In all honesty, I think the word passive income gets thrown around a lot.
And people forget that
The things that you do see
That might be passive income streams required a lot of
Work.
Up front.
To start with.
What are some passive income ideas that you think some people could pursue, like the the average person could potentially pursue?
On top of the
The nine to five job.
I would go back to the easiest way for someone to pursue passive income is through investing.
From like the S P five hundred and stuff like that.
Everything else.
And this is how I see it. Everything else requires some level of time or energy'cause you could increase your in income for a couple of
Avenues if that's what you're looking to do.
You can
Like we spoke about, ask for a pay rise at work. You can, if that's not available to you.
Set up side businesses.
Mm.
To increase your income.
And there's two ways to do that. There's the
Tap and go.
That I like to call it.
And it's
Ways to increase your income that you could do immediately.
This isn't passive.
This is things like
putting a spare room or an airbnb or
Um
An dog walking or Ubering.
They require your time.
Mm-hmm. For money.
But they are immediate.
The downside is there is a
cap to how much you could earn because it's not leaning into your unique
advantages, your market advantage.
No unique selling points.
The other side.
Is
value and skill based income.
And this is where you lean into your
individuality.
Your unique selling point.
You tap into your skills.
And you create businesses around that.
That can scale.
The downside with that, even if it is passive, say if you want to create
Um
Content.
And then through that sell products, which you could then
Yeah.
With that kind of income stream.
There's always
It always takes longer to make that money.
And there's a time
period where you are putting in more time.
Or even more money before you start earning that.
So when I talk about passive income, that's when I say, sure, there are avenues for passive income, but the easiest one that's accessible to everyone is investing. Everything else does require some upfront time or energy.
Yeah.
I was we obviously we're talking before.
we started recording about Standstor, which is a company I've become a co-owner in. And that business allows you to sell digital products online. And we did this thirty day challenge and I was looking through the results of how much money people had made and also how much how much of a following they had, because I think digital products are really like interesting.
entrepreneurial opportunity. And there's this one I was going through all of them yesterday over in the studio and there was like so many people, but this is this one that's stood in mind because she had a thousand followers.
And she's helping women to
Get control of
Bingy thing.
And other sort of eating disorders by selling like
digital products and information and really like a community.
She had like a thousand followers or something. And in the last thirty days, she's made four or five thousand pounds.
Doing that?
So like forty.
Like
Digital products like basically PDFs and stuff like that. I just thought this is a massive untapped opportunity for the vast majority of people who've spent ten years, twenty years in a career and know something, have some kind of expertise.
Yeah, using what you've learning through your
Day job and turning it into a
A business on the side that can be scalable.
Mm-hmm.
Not necessarily through creating content, which is what I think a lot of people think that they need to do.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
I imagine like everybody knows something.
And there's a demand now for
People to buy that.
expertise that you know, if especially if you've been in the working world for like
A couple of years.
Yeah, I'd say
If you want to figure out what it is that that expertise
is for you.'Cause sometimes we're sitting on a mountain of knowledge but we don't even know it until we kind of take a step back and then
Look to see what that thing is.
Ask your friends.
What is it that you'd come to me for advice on?
'Cause I know I have people in my life who I go to for advice on
specific areas, or if I want uh planning for an event.
Hey.
What should I do? How should I do this? If I need help with Excel, hey, can you help me with this formula? If I've got back pain.
Just a quick message or WhatsApp to someone saying, Hey, what can I do in this situation? Find out what are people coming to you for advice on.
That kind of will give you a signal as to
What people want to know about you, what people want to learn from you.
And see if there's a way to turn that into an income stream. I mean it's very much what you did.
Yeah.
That is exactly what I did.
It's turning.
The finance knowledge
Which at the time my tagline was sharing everything I know and I'm learning along the way.
to create a life that I love.
And it was me kind of doing it as an online diary.
sharing this is what I'm learning, this is what I'm doing, and then it ultimately ended up into something that
I do full time.
And that's changed your life in a pretty profound way.
I wouldn't be here if I
If I didn't take the that.

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Intuit.com slash expert. I'll put that on the screen. That's intuit.com slash expert.
Expert.
Talk to me about that journey. Was it um
Was it faster than you expected?
And was it
Are you in a place
That is higher than you expected when you started. You've done hundred and fifty one videos on YouTube.
Yeah.
And is it safe to say
It's made.
You millions?
Yeah.
I would
Never have thought I was in the place that I am.
Now
Through sitting in my spare bedroom.
And
Creating videos.
Monday to Friday I'll be going to work.
Glitzenklammer.
Meeting clients.
There was a kind of alert to it.
And then the weekends I'll be spent
spending in my spare bedroom Googling
What's A role?
What's B roll?
How do I do colour grading?
Which are all terms in terms of editing videos. It's all terms of editing videos,'cause that's what I was doing on my weekends and evenings.
While you were still at work. Yeah.
I quit my day job just over two years ago.
And so for a very long time.
This was just a creative outlet for me.
And I loved it. I found so much
Interest in it.
Purpose for
really grew as the channel grew.
It grew very quickly from
One thousand two
fifty thousand within a few days and then a hundred thousand within
A few weeks of that.
And
As the channel grew
I saw the comments that were coming in, hey, I've just invested in this for the first time because of
what you've said here or
I've just
asked for a pay rise at work because of this conversation.
And
When you see something like that.
come through. There is no amount
Of money.
That can be made through a day job that beats that.
There was nothing.
What was previously external
fulfillment for me turned into an internal fulfillment.
So
Yeah.
has been the best thing I've done hands down.
And it is
the thing that would continue to do even if I wasn't making money from it.
You made one video uh seven months ago about
Things you stop doing to waste your evenings after work. The video is titled Five Things I Did to Stop Wasting My Evenings After Work.
Yeah.
Because I had to be really disciplined with my time when I uh
Was working in banking.
So what is it what is the essence of that video? Is it telling people to use the
their time as an asset more effectively and
So often we just are living in autopilot mode. We don't even think about the time that we're using and how we're using it.
We
are just coming home after work and turning on the TV and watching Netflix and sinking into the couch because we've done that the day before and the day before and it's comfortable.
And the essence of that video is
To say
There there's probably more
out there.
If you're sitting there and you're in a place where you're thinking, I don't really like my job. I don't really like what I'm doing.
I'm not really happy.
I want to meet new people, but I'm not doing that.
Then this video is about saying hey
Come out of that autopilot mode.
That you might be in.
And
You have
hours, maybe on the weekend, maybe in the evening.
that you can use to create a better life for yourself. So it's like budgeting your time. It is budgeting your time. Exactly that.
Thinking about w
how you can spend each hour in a way that
Brings you closer to
the version of the life that you want.
I think about that a lot, because uh ultimately our time is the center point of our influence. Like it's the thing that's gonna determine our long term outcomes pretty much more than anything else, whether we spend it reading a book, that's gonna educate us, or learn how to color grade for YouTube videos like you did.
Or whether we spend it, you know, watching
Love Island. Yeah.
On the T V or something.
Like
In the same way that that hundred dollars is gonna compound at ten percent a year in the S P five hundred.
That choice is gonna compound.
Like you so let's play that out. So instead of watching Love Island, I decide to read that book you recommended about money.
And then that means that I make a series of different decisions which change the trajectory of several areas of my life.
I maybe stop spending as much, I start budgeting a little bit.
I go and uh educate myself in a new skill.
And if you zoom out on that as a graph over like ten, twenty, thirty years, you're in an entirely different position because you used one hour differently thirty years ago.
But you'll like never see the return because it's so
Compounding is so hard to see.
In the moment, but yeah.
I really think about this a lot. I I try and remind myself on a frequent basis that like the actual currency I'm spending is these these hours that I have.
And how intentional and well placed and aligned they are to my long term goals is maybe
Maybe the most important thing.
And it's the most powerful thing that you have.
Yeah. Exactly.
What about your happiness? What is um what makes you happy, Nisha?
the way I'm living right now, which is doing what I'm doing for a living.
Is making me extremely happy.
And it's the happiest.
I've been
since starting a career.
Yeah, I think.
It comes back to
Finding
A meaning and a purpose.
And what you're doing.
And
To say that I make money from
Helping people.
get better with their finances.
I don't think that
There's stuff and y you can't get much better than that.
I don't think there's many jobs in life.
That
Are more rewarding.
Than giving back in some way.
However that looks like for you.
Through your own skills.
Your own
Expertise, your own unique selling points.
I can't imagine I like
A better place for me myself to be in.
And it's taken
A long time to get to that, but it's been good. It's been a g it's been a journey, but it's
It's been a good one.
AI is this you know the
the the topic of the moment.
Because it's just impacting everything. It's impacting people's ability to get jobs. It's impacting how I'm hiring as a employer.
It's impacting how I do my creative work and even me as a podcaster as well. I was wondering if you what you're doing.
How you're thinking about AI.
I'm seeing more and more people leaning into AI.
To get money tips.
A money advice.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that's great because it's
Everything's at the expertise. If you're looking at what was available twenty years ago versus what was available five years ago versus what was available a year ago to what's available now, there's so much more information that is vastly available at your fingertips for you to learn financial literacy and be prepared for it.
The thing that I would always ask people to remember is
Don't forget the emotional side of money.
Because
Greed,
Fair
that all comes into how you're managing your finances as well.
Yeah.
So
Use AI, use it to your advantage. I think it's brilliant and I think you always need to lean into it.
Um
But there's a hu there's
The human component that can never be taken
out of the equation, especially when it comes to
Money and finance. Could I not just go on like chat GPT and ask it to be my own.
Personal accountant.
Every month and
Tell it my situation, tell it my goals. And then tell it to give me advice every every day, week, month.
What I should be doing.
I think that would be a great starting point.
To understand what do I need to do if I'm absolutely clueless.
That's not to say Cha Cha GPT is always correct.
Um
As you probably know, there's some errors in it.
So take it with a pinch of salt, but if you're starting from scratch
Even saying hey, this is
My
Income, this is my spending.
How do you recommend I budget? Give me three or four ways to consider it.
Yeah.
A way for you to take if that's a way for you to take that next step, then
Definitely think that's a avenue to be explored.
Chuck you were telling um the other day that
You're now using AI a lot.
for financial support and advice.
Mm-hmm.
What are you what are you doing?
Um so I've got like this prompt on on chat GPT.
Where I've I've asked it to be the world's best financial advisor for me.
And
Uh I screenshotted all my bank statements and I every time I tell people this, they kind of wince'cause it's like a lot of
window into your life. I don't kinda know that
GDPR or whatever around it, but it's been so useful. So I've screenshotted everything on my bank statement.
And then it tells me how much I spend a month.
how much I can put into investments and stuff. And I also screenshotted this investment account I had.
It told me that I was overpaying.
On my investment account.
And that I should switch to another one.
Because the fees were better?
And then it was like you you
don't have enough in savings.
So you should stop investing and put
your money into savings.
gave me uh advice on a savings account to put it into with a high interest, like four percent interest.
And it's actually been game changing because it's kind of a base knowledge that I wouldn't have had an understanding towards. And I get very excited when I listen to these podcasts'cause I sit here.
And they tell you like ones to invest in.
And
I think it was a particular guest we had on.
She said, You should invest in this kind of stock. And I said, Oh, what do you think about this stock? And it was just like Don't be silly.
You're not this person.
And it's just been really helpful for me to kind of understand it's it's um
Advice.
Changes and adjusts. Oh was that Kathy Wood? Yeah. It was it was it Tesla. Yeah. I was like Behave yourself. And I was like, Kathy Wood had this this advice, tell me
Tell me should I put it in?
Should I put all my money into Tesla? And it was like, look, you're not Kathy Wood.
Like you don't have enough. It's kinda what you said about um having emergency funds. Yeah. That you don't have enough in your emergency funds, top that up first.
And that's like if you want to invest in Tesla, we'll have another pot.
So the new one uh
Done trading two one two. Yeah. And you can do pies. So I've got a safe one.
And a not so safe one.
And then a high interest account.
That's really interesting, Chad.
That
That you've done. I think that's that just shows the power of AI now. And there's two really interesting things.
that I picked up on that. The first is that
Is very tailored.
Based on
You
Which
With
AI is probably
Understood who you are as a person from the information that you fed to it, your risk profile, your amounts, the bank statement had your savings.
And from that
It derived
A profile.
And gave you the correct information.
Based on
your current situation.
Mm-hmm.
And
The second thing that probably doesn't get mentioned
And
Maybe mm
Podcast that you've done so far, Stephen.
The the savings, the putting it into a high interest savings account. It's a very easy
Basic personal finance tips.
But actually
Do make a difference.
when it comes to habits, but also it's easy that's passive income for you.
They would get missed out on a lot of the advice if you're
Watching a specific investing focused.
YouTube video.
Or you uh podcasts.
So it just
harnesses the power of chat GPT. I don't know yet if
Or I don't know if we have any information about how much information we can actually feed into chat GPT and where that goes.
But it sounds like it's just
you've given it the underlying framework or this is my current situation and it's given you the correct
Um
initial guidance at least, and then you've been able to say, Okay, that makes sense for me, or no, I'm not gonna
Listen to this.
Mm.
Yeah, I think the the
I keep asking it like
Am I on track and it changes its advice?
So although it's been really good initially.
I think I'm now with that base knowledge is gonna go and sort of
And everything I've learned on these podcasts as well, just kinda go and run with it.
Yeah. Yeah.
And that's really important thing,'cause you know, there's there's so much information online.
When it comes to money.
But you don't actually know who to listen to and who to get advice.
From?
And who to trust?
Because you could be scoring through TikTok and the first video you see is put all your money into
Tesla.
Or crypto.
U
one asset or you could see another one that says I'll stop buying glattase. So
otherwise you'll die broke. And then the next video card might be mine and you might think, Oh well the last two people just
told me BS why should I listen to this person?
And so finding a person who
Whose principles and
philosophy align with your way of thinking.
is a way that will keep you motivated.
And inspired to want to keep.
Getting better with finances.
And so you've
Probably got that information.
from Chat GPT and has said to you, hey, based on your profile, this is what's important.
And you've
kind of leaned into the th leaned into that and thought, This is right for me.
Actually this makes sense and you've probably actioned it.
And so it's it's a um
Fine line between finding someone who you resonate with
And also understanding that
Their principles and I with yours.
And how much do you think about credit scores?'Cause I absolutely butchered my credit score before I even realised it existed.
Oh, my credit score was i in the bin. I I got uh two C C Js, which are county court judgments which is where you really fuck up.'Cause I didn't know a thing about money when I was
eighteen, nineteen years old, and they gave me these credit cards and I'd overdraft and
mm, defaulted and didn't pay them back and went to an ATM, put it in, it didn't come back out. Yeah.
Um and then I found out that I had destroyed my credit rating before I knew what it was. And I hear this quite a lot from people. They don't understand
The importance of it.
Or you know.
You don't realise the importance of it because until you're looking to buy something.
Big.
Yeah. Because that's what it impacts the credit score. It
Two people can go into a car showroom.
And choose the same car and
The amount they pay for it will be completely different based on
The history.
Yeah.
And so they're all
It is something that you need to think about. It is something that you need to make sure you're paying off in time in full your credit card, for instance.
And it is
Definitely one of the main things or one of one of the things people should always look at and consider. And you can check your
credit rating online for free.
Mm. There are websites that do that.
And you could check it, just make sure all of your details
Are correct if there's any anomalies.
Correct that, but
Most importantly, just make sure and it really comes down to are you paying the things
Now are outstanding.
I think most people, especially younger people, don't actually realise that they have a credit score and that they can check it right now for free. And they also probably don't realise that things like being registered to vote
has an impact on their credit rating. Cause I remember the first time I looked in to check my credit score and I was like
Forty five.
And it said the reason why one of the reasons why it's low is because you haven't registered to vote. I was like, What the hell?
Yeah, register to vote, that that's one of the things. Even something like you could call up your credit card company.
or your uh the company that you have a b da uh and say, Hey, can you increase
The amount that I have available.
What that does is it re reduces your utilization when you're using debt.
And by just saying okay, you
have instead of utilising fifty percent of your credit available, you're now using twenty percent.
Yeah. What companies now see is oh okay, then they're being sensible. They're not
really relying on this step on their day to day living.
Is there
Couple of things that
You could take into account but even if you do
And again, people don't realise this, even if you do have
Interest rates.
because you're not paying your debt off in time, you can negotiate that. You can call up
The company and
say, okay, this is the interest rate I'm paying, but this is what I have
Planned, this is how I plan to pay off my debt.
And I want to do it over the next twelve, eighteen months.
Can you reduce
Or can you look at
Would you see my interest rate?

I have these personas here, there's three of them. And I was wondering, they're three different people at three different stages of life. When you think about the advice you'd give these people.
Does it come back to this framework, this sixty five, twenty, fifteen
framework really regardless of what stage they're at.
You know what, most things in finance do come back to that framework. The sixty five, twenty, fifty, or even a variation for it.
With Andy. He's just started.
his job, he's early on in his career.
His
Making less now than he will in ten years, twenty years time. So it may not be that his paycheck allows for sixty five percent
to go towards his rent and his car, which is what he wants something new of. It might be that it might be 70 or 75%.
But the key is
Especially at this stage, the most important thing that he has going for him is time. So save, invest early.
Do it recurringly.
which is often, and harness the power of long term growth, is what I'll say to Andy. When it comes to the new phone.
Remember that there is a trade off for every decision you're making. If it's not an absolute necessity
Or an urgency.
That can be spent.
And the value of that
Maybe thousand dollars today.
Cabby worth.
significantly more.
In ten years or twenty years time.
Mm-hmm.
So balance
That
Together. Again.
If
There's budget.
But it's after he's put down the money for his savings investing, if he wants to spend that on the fund, then go ahead.
With him, though, do you think his risk appetite should be a little bit higher?'Cause I when I look at uh
Andy here.
Early twenties, maybe.
Late teens or something. Yeah.
With him, I think.
You need to take risk.
Anything?
Go work at an AI startup because
He wants to fill that bucket of knowledge with like really high yielding
Relevant skill. Yeah.
So I don't know, I think I'm him I go, Bro, to t roll the dice, you've got nothing to lose, you ain't got a mortgage yet, ain't got kids.
In your twenties, you can play the long term game.
Absolutely. Everything feels like it's urgent in your twenties. You feel like you need the promotion, you feel like you need to invest straight away, you feel like you need the pay price.
Immediately.
That
Decades over dopamine.
And he's got a long time in the the
Things that he learns now, the things that he invests in.
the skills and the risks that he take, he can bounce back from that.
And even when it comes to investing, actually.
When you're in your twenties, you can be more risk averse because you have the upward trend of the market.
that will see you through.
So
Twenties is the time to take the rest.
Take all the tiny experiments.
And
Just be a sponge where you absorb everything.
Yeah, that's what I got. What about Lisa in the middle there?
Lisa is
She's got a mortgage, she's got an income, and she's got a good amount of savings.
And she is
Keen to start investing, but she doesn't know where to start.
And this is where a lot of people fall into. They have their savings saying aside.
Um, and this is she's doing really well.
Someone like
In Lisa's position.
But
If anyone listening to this is similar to Lisa's position.

Chances are they're not investing because they
Oscar?
And payful?
Of what to do.
And they don't know where to start. So
Lisa, I would say
Have your emergency fund in place.
Pay off any debt, it doesn't look like you have any debt.
If your mortgage isn't over eight percent.
You can make more from
Instead of paying down your debt, you can make more investing. So you're
Great to start wanting to invest and I'll say keep it simple.
Do it for the long term.
Keep it simple.
You wanna if especially if you're just starting out
Your emotions.
And the behavior is gonna play a key part.
In your investing. So
One hundred percent of your portfolio, stick to
index funds and target data retirement funds at the moment.
And then if you are ready as you
get more senior, you haven't increased your income, then you can dip into other assets should you want to.
And we've got Matt over there, who's a single parent earning about so Lisa was earning roughly a hundred and forty thousand a year. Yeah. Matt's earning sixty thousand a year.
Over over fifty percent of his income is going towards his rent. He has credit card debt over one thousand five hundred. So the first thing I would say looking at
Someone in Matt's position.
Is if you've already saved for your peace of mind, find it.
You the first thing you want to do is
pay off that high interest rate debt.
It is
Like running with weights on your ankles, you wanna
Take them off so you can start moving on to the next
Path of your financial journey.
So focus on paying off that credit card debt.
He wants to increase income income sources, but has little time outside of work and being a dad.
So that says to me that he probably
Doesn't have time.
Or energy.
To spend on
trying to see if something's gonna work and see what comes out of it. He wants to
Um
Make an immediate.
source of income. So the easy way
To increase your income.
Is
Getting an increase in your current job.
Getting a pay rise, and if not
switching companies to see if you get a pay rise that way. When I'm looking at my own career, when I stayed at the same organization, it was the increase was between
Three percent, five percent, sometimes a bit higher if I got promoted to ten percent. And then when I switched to companies, it was always between twenty and thirty percent.
when I moved. And I know that is I I was in a lucky place where I had the movement to get those pay jumps and to get that salary increase and not everyone's in that position. Um, but if you have or if you're in an industry which
There is a h there is more path to earn more, then I'd definitely say
First and foremost, increase your income. You don't have to put in any more time towards it given you also have
uh children to look after as well.
If you've
stopped the if you've already exhausted those two avenues, then the next thing I'll say if you want to know immediate income is picking up
income streams that
Unfortunately
Might be tied to your time.
but they will have an immediate impact on your income because that's probably what you
might be looking to do because your rent and I'm guessing your other living expenses are taking up a lot of your take home pay. So you wanna find out that extra buffer to start paying towards the debt that you have.
Things like
So this could be things like uh selling secondhand stuff online.
um selling products online, s renting out a spare room if you have that on Airbnb.
um things that you don't actually need to put capital in.
to make money straight away from.
Are there things you never spend money on?
Uh
this point in my life, me specifically, I don't think I bought a designer
Item in two years.
Which is a lot for me.
because I was stripped out in the designer wear beforehand. I've found
that my validation in life has come
through by work and through internally.
And it took me on a journey to do that.
And I just don't believe in
The premium prices.
That you pay for
Promoting another product.
Or a brand.
If it's for utility.
If you're buying a branded item or a designer for utility, i. e.
This design or this brand.
Works better.
Then go for it.
But if you're doing it purely

Show then for me.
At this point in my life, it's just a no go. I could spend that money in other ways. That brings me a lot more
Um fulfillment and
Different ways.
Do you spend on fast fashion?
Instead of the the luxury hind stuff? Oh, that's a good question. No, I don't spend on fast fashion unless it's a really urgent last minute buy and I haven't found anything else.
But I tend to have a capsule wardrobe, which means I could play around. I spend
A good amount on quality pieces.
And that's important to me.
Quality pieces that I could use time and time again.
And can switch in and out of, and I I think for me
When it comes to clothing, it's more just okay.
With work, it's what can remove the decision making for me.
What about books? I think that is one area that I
Love spending money on.
There's an infinite return. There really is. And actually some of the
Breakthroughs that I've had.
Have come from
The books I've read.
Even the first book that I read, which is the British Dad, Poor Dad, they're just the
Concept.
Of understanding assets versus liabilities.
Just knowing that from an early age can start
Changing your thinking.
In a way that you wouldn't be able to having a normal conversation.
The people you hang around with, the people who you spend time with, they have a massive impact on
Where you end up.
And
I think
It's easy to say just hang out with
Another crew or just
hang out with a new crowd that pushes you.
But actually
For a lot of people they don't have access.
Two
That's it.
And that's where books
Podcasts.
YouTube videos.
It almost has that.
Averaging effect.
Or the five people
Around you.
Mm-hmm.
It mirrors that effect. So even if you don't have
access to the people who you want to learn from.
By reading their book, watching the videos, listening to the podcast.
You can still gain that knowledge.
And it's almost equivalent to you sitting with them for an hour.
So you're thinking people should definitely subscribe?
Subliminal messaging. We're black a lot.
Like me.
Is that a intentional choice?
It started off
because when I was doing my YouTube channel alongside working and banking
I had to find every way possible.
Two
Eliminate.
Any
sort of decision making that will stop me from doing the thing.
Yeah.
And so it was a way for me to create a system, not rely on motivation.
So there was about four outfits of black that I'd always change from.
And
It made my life a lot easier.
Now this has
Carried through.
It's been a lot of just it just makes me think about things less, but
No, I do also wear other colours just as much. It just happens to be that
Black is sixty percent of my wardrobe.
Nisha, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next, not knowing who they're leaving it for.
And the question that's been left for you.
Is
Who is the one person
that was slash is responsible for the person that you are today.
And the reason why you are sitting here.
It goes back to the person who when I started my YouTube videos
And I got a lot of noise.
And
A lot of people saying, Oh, like
What is she doing?
Does this make sense? The person who really kept me going was my dad.
Yeah, he

What you're doing is
So good for the world.
Your education is gonna help so many people.
Don't stop.
But I didn't
So
Thanks, Dad.
For believing me.
When
There was like nine or ten views on my videos.
Yeah.
Wasn't expecting that.
Crazy how someone
Just saying a few words at the right moment can
Be so sort of pivotal to your like trajectory.
Does he know how much he
Inspired all of this.
I don't think he knows the extent to him.
I sent him like
A message
Maybe.
A few months ago.
Um telling'em
Like
Hey, remember that day when I showed you my YouTube video?
And
It was just me in my dining room and I couldn't even speak properly and it was set up in weird lighting and
It was getting nine or ten views and you said, Don't stop.
Keep passing this education down.
And I said to him I didn't send that message to him and said
I'm so glad you did that because I've continued because of that.
And we're not really wordy with each other.
But I think he heard it.
I don't know if he knows the extent, but I think he'll be
Happy.
To know.
The extent of that now.
You got the tissue strip.

Thank you.
Thanks.
Yeah.
I think
Who is the one person that was is responsible for the person that you are today and the reason why you're sitting here now?
And that is dad.
That is that.
He must be pretty shocked, uh
To some degree. Like no one could have imagined in
Y your channel would be this big and you'd be reaching this many people.
He didn't expect it. I didn't expect it.
I think
He
Believed that
For him he believed.
That a job was security for us. I'm one of three girls. I'm the middle sister.
And
All he wanted was for us to get a good job and be secure.
So whilst
This is beyond I could ever expect. When I quit and I quit.
Taking a big pay cut. That was hard for him.
How big was the pay tone?
Eighty four percent.
So you run
Two twenty.
Two twenty pounds.
Yeah. Which is about three hundred thousand dollars. Yeah.
And I was just about to get a
A six figure bonus so I left before a six figure bonus.
Just before the biggest bonus of my career.
I negotiated it.
I spent months negotiating it and two months before
That
Six figure bonus landed. I
Why didn't you just wait?
There's always gonna be
A carrot waved in front of your face.
And that carrot's gonna come in different
Shapes.
Sizes, forms.
And it's gonna be a distraction.
to keep you on the default path.
Carrot for me was
That bonus.
Telling me.
Hey, just wait.
Mm.
Just wait another two months and then wait another year.
And another year and
Five years and ten years and just wait till you're sixty.
And I had this
Once in a lifetime opportunity.
That was just exploding on the side.
And
With it came all these
People saying hey
I'm so
Thankful.
For all of this and I was getting DMs from people.
Just pouring the life story to me.
And there is no monetary value that beats that.
There really isn't.
And so I like took a step back.
I ran my numbers, it was eighty four percent pay card.
I thought it still covers my mortgage.
It covers my like basic living expenses.
The biggest risk isn't
quitting my job, the biggest risk is
Letting this once in a lifetime.
Opportunity passed me by a never knowing.
Where that path could have taken me.
That was the biggest risk.
And the hardest part was actually just
Letting go of the identity.
That I've wrapped myself in.
Yeah.
What was identity.
I
My title was my identity.
I'd worked in banking for nine years and
I could sit at a dinner table.
Cling on to my title.
Say I worked in finance and feel externally validated.
And so
That move to
quit.
at the time that I did for my career, a corporate career.
Which
I've worked so hard for.
It's
Like
It's what I wanted for so long.
And then just as
Let go of that and say
I'm letting go of that identity. It took so much reframing in my mind.
And so much mind work.
And so many things I had to do to make myself feel comfortable to say, Okay, I'm not letting anything else dictate.
The way my life goes from here.
It was a lot of work and
I would say if anyone else is listening to this thinking
I'm in a place where
I'm
unhappy, I really want to do something new, but I'm scared and I don't know what other people are gonna say and
What's society gonna say if I quit or
Take this other path.
I could say the things that I did that really helped me.
And the first is
Spend more time.
On
The path that you want to go down.
Then
Around the people that are telling you otherwise.
Because so often we're
Half in half out.
We're interested in something, but we're not obsessed with it.
And when you're interested, you just kinda just do whatever
Needs to be done, but when you're obsessed.
You're gonna do whatever it takes.
And this applies to anything to
Changing your career, to being a parent, to being an entrepreneur.
Become obsessed with that thing that you want to do.
'Cause that will give you the courage to make the hard decisions when they come.
The second thing.
I think I made a video on this too. I
I wrote down on my phone on on an Apple notes.
And
I wrote down all the
things people were saying to me, the external noise.
Underneath it I had
Well, my inner voice was saying.
And
It's really easy when your inner voice isn't loud.
for it to be diluted by what everyone else around you is saying.
At that point, if anyone said anything
Or if anyone is saying anything to plant seeds of doubt in your head.
Look at what your inner voice is saying.
Read it, repeat it.
Let that be louder than anything else that is
happening.
Around you.
And what was the external
Voices saying.
When when my channel started picking up
It was
being shared into
Um
What's that groups of
People I know.
And friends and friends and friends and friends and it was just
Yeah.
you know, when you're just starting something new and someone is breaking barriers, it's just trying to
Pull them back. Pull them back a little bit. This isn't you.
Mocking them subtly.
Yeah.
Why are you saying your number's online?
What are you doing?
Right.
Lol.
And
You've just gotta remember the reason why I'm saying my numbers online, that is hard to do.
It's hard to sit there and say, This is my salary over nine years.
It's not hard to do that, but
I I remind myself
It should be transparent.
Is to
Help people make the decisions that
Help them with money.
It's the same reason why I came back.
And said, I want to say this.
Because it's the transparency.
And I think the third thing.
I
Think everyone should like kind of take into account when
They're making
Um
How can we say?
Where's where's this submission coming from?
It's very
Deep inside you.
There was a lot of pain.
During my career?
And I felt really trapped at times, but I didn't know how to escape.
But also'cause I know a lot of people are probably hearing this and thinking
I'm also in that place.
And so I really feel like
Mai.
purpose is to help as many people
To go from feeling trapped to
Freeing themselves.
And using money to do that.
And so I guess that's why I'm feeling like
It's bringing it all up because this is just
Alignment.
For me.
And it's just like bringing back the memories of what where I was at that time.
And what I had to do to
Like just
Take that cut.
Because at the end of the day, no one else has to deal with your
But the decisions you make in life more than you.
They have to deal with
Maybe the consequence of a moment, but only you have to deal with the consequences of
All the decisions that you make in life.
Only you have to go to a job.
And work for a company that you don't want to work in.
Only you have to live that day.
Onie.
You have to
Be with a partner.
If that's the reason you chose if
If you chose because everyone else is saying it, only you have to do that.
Only you have to
Grow old with the memories of what could've, should have, would have been.
And live with the what if.
And that's why I
I guess there's so many people that I know
And they'll probably listen to this, that I know deep down there's something more out there.
And
I just wanna
If anything, give them the courage to say
Take that risk.
It's usually a calculator risk.
And if it's to do with you
Money and finances.
Spend some time.
Make sure you have your
emergency fund or whatever it is that's needed. But
Align your money to match your life decisions.
'Cause it can really be
For Yang.
Have you spoken much about the pain?
Why.
Yes.
My content's personal finance, so it's not really about me.
So
Personal finance, I'm just trying to educate people.
Um
Yeah.
I didn't
probably wouldn't have spoken about it here if you didn't ask me the question about
Where it's come from.
it's taking me back to the start. And sometimes you go into a journey and you get tunnel vision and you forget why you did it.
And you forget why you started?
And
You forget all the people that helped you on that journey.
And there was a lot of people that helped me and at different points.
My partner, my mom, my dad, my sisters, like they've all helped me at different points and
People I learn from.
My mental is like
It's just all
A reminder as to
How it started and
How
different things have lined up.
What was the hardest day when you look back through that transition that you've been on? What was was there a hardest day, a hardest moment?
The hardest day was
That morning when I
You made my manager.
Two
Get on a Zoom call.
And I said.
I'm turning down that bonus.
Um
Leaving banking. That was the hardest.
If I was a flower on the wall.
Yeah.
You'll see
Girl in her late twenties.
Taking
Or saying no to a part that
Could make money.
That was very certain.
And that
Followed the default path.
To go to a path where she wasn't sure if she was gonna make money.
She didn't know how it would turn out.
But she did it because it meant so much to her.
And she did it because she saw the impact she was having.
And
in her ten years or nine years in banking, she's never felt like she's had
that impact on individuals, it's been on corp for corporates or for sovereigns.
It's never been for.
specific people or
Day to day people who need it.
And she did a
And
She didn't know where I was gonna lead her.
Is there an element of
Bing uh
first or second generation immigrant that
ties into this because I hear so often when people come up to me in the in the gym and you know their their mother's African like my mother's African and and I was born in Africa and so my mother's Nigerian and put tremendous weight on
You know.
going to university and becoming a success in the eyes of the public. And then I hear a lot from sort of more Asian
first generation immigrants or second generation immigrants that they feel a you know, the doctor lawyer
Can't remember what the third one was, Doctor Lawyer something.
Accountant, one of the things that we're going to do. Do you think that plays a role?
Into why you go down a certain path. Yeah, in t in terms of like
If you're at home and you're you have a
generation immigrant parents may see successes
Like one of three jobs.
It becomes harder to break out like it breaking out is
Basically makes you a failure at home.
I think there's two things. I think it's
Definitely that's a big part of it.
But also seeing what your parents did.
And how hard they worked to get you onto a path of security, which is a job.
And then saying.
Yeah, you would.
Really hard and I'm throwing that away.
There's a lot of guilt that comes with that.
Yeah.
So I think it's I think it's both. I think it's
Did you feel with it?
That guilt.
I did at the time.
Massive guilt.
Massive guilt.
I couldn't tell anyone that I was quitting until after I quit.
The only person who knew was my then boyfriend, now husband.
Your parents didn't know.
They didn't know till after I quit. I couldn't tell them.
Why?
'Cause I knew that.
If they said something.
I might have just changed my decision.
Do you think they would have said something?
I don't know, but when I told them
They supported it.
Because I knew I was
Also too late.
I think
They might have just said, Hey
Secure.
Well, maybe there's something in that. Maybe in those big decisions where, as you say, you're gonna deal with the consequences yourself, both the upside and the regret.
Maybe
Consensus and focus groups.
aren't needed in such a moment when we should be tuning into the voice inside.
Because yeah, external voices will just complicate those things. But
I also think, you know, I say this to people a lot when they come up to me and they say, I'm in this situation, I'm in finance, I'm working in the city.
I've got this dream of being a violin player in Peru.
The first question I often ask them is like could you go back if you're wrong?
Because if you could go back if you're wrong.
then that's what we call a I think it's a type one decision in business, which is a door that is reversible.
And so many people spend
one year, three years, five years, ten years, twenty years of their life stood in front of a
type one decision, a door that they could walk back through if they're wrong.
And actually it's just like such a c crazy shame not to make those type one decisions at speed.
Mm.
If if it's reversible. And it's so crazy because like ninety five percent of the time when I ask someone that question, they respond, they said, Yeah, I could go back to
Investment banking if I was wrong. Yeah. And like go do the violin thing then.
Go fuck up, fail, it might work out, whatever, but

If you can. So
Yeah, you won't have that pain of what if
The what if, yeah.
And I I remember reading that study from Bon Bronny.
Bronyware. Yeah.
Palliative nurse who interview people on their deathbeds and it was um
Think the number one regret is
Not living the life that I think I could have lived.
I've always remembered that. I thought okay, so
If it's reversible, then maybe go through that door as fast as you can.
Nisha, thank you so much for doing what you do. It's really, um it's really incredibly important. And I think the very fact that your channel has been so resonant and so far reaching speaks to
an unmet demand in people's understanding of finance, but also having a voice that they can very much relate to.
That um
Simplifies, makes things ac complicated things accessible, but also just a human being that
Is um
Relatable in many forms. Your intentions of why you're doing what you're doing.
Are so abundantly clear.
And I could see that in the emotion.
I can see that you really, really do care about other people. And actually your decision to take a leap from the world of investment banking, which was much more secure and high status in many people's eyes at that moment in time.
Was one also inspired by the fact that
You wanna do good for the world.
And that is exactly what you're doing. So I highly recommend everybody goes and checks out your channel. I'm gonna link it below.
um if they want to continue this conversation'cause you make very
Actionable.
concise, clear videos on all the subjects we've talked about, but many more.
Um and also to go follow you on social media, which I'll also link everywhere else. Um but I just want to thank you for your time.
And uh hope hopefully we can talk again soon when you've uh written a book and uh the book comes out.
Thank you so much, Stephen. It's been a pleasure.
Just give me thirty seconds of your time.
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