Talking to Tim Ferriss about how to live a dope life

0:00 We have a bunch of friends, not gonna name names, but they've already earned the last dollar they will ever spend in their life. And so now they're trading great hours for useless dollars, which is like such a wake up call of a bad trade to make. Once you have the power. Two. Get whatever it is that you want. Then the priority shifts to wanting the right shit. I feel like I can root

0:20 Well I know I can be what I want to I'll put my all in it like my day song on the road. Uh yeah, where to start? It's so funny. I did a pod with Tim I don't know, last year or something like that. And I hyper prepared for it because I was like oh my god this is Tim Ferris this is the guy this is the reason I did a podcast in the first place. I wanted to be a Tim Ferris. That was a that was a that was part of the North Star This time I had the exact opposite opinion. I was like I don't have any agenda coming into this, meaning like

0:51 I just want to know what's up. I want to know what's new, what's exciting, what are you nerding out about? I just kinda want to hear what's going on. Like what is Tim Furris up to nowadays? And I have your Game here. And actually you told me about this even when we were doing that last podcast. You said I just spent a few days with one of the world's best game designers. I didn't realize that was our mutual friend Elon. And um He's the man. He came on this podcast too recently. He he's the man. So you went and did a you went and made a game with him. May maybe just I don't know, start there. Why'd you why'd you make a game? We see, yeah.

1:21 Two years in the making, believe it or not. So I grew up with D D. I still have all my original modules, Dungeons and Dragons, and played a lot of video games. And as I was looking at what to potentially experiment with next,'cause every few years I try something that's very much off menu. or unrelated to what I'm currently doing. Right. So there was the first book and then the angel investing was sort of a

1:47 wading into identity diversification. So I wouldn't get pigeonholed in one place as a business author, for instance, and then The podcast. after four hour chef and there have been a number of other examples. Some work out, some don't In the case of the game. This came about.

2:06 I think pretty naturally because as I was kinda late to therapy in life, but better late than never, I guess, and When people do a lot of therapy or they do psychedelic experiences, or when they've just had a couple of glasses of wine with friends at a certain point. What comes up a lot is, yeah, you know, I just take stuff so seriously and it's so heavy and I'm constantly doing A, B, or C. I just need to have like more play, more play, more play. And it's a lot and if I look back at the books I've written, it's like, Yeah, okay, productivity, efficiency, effectiveness. Learning.

2:37 There is a serious tinge to it, if that makes sense. But I feel like analog getting off of screens and play is more important than ever. And trying to find something that's a lighter lift than Dungeons and Dragons seemed like a fun challenge. And I love Alan Lee. The guy is such a polymath. Of epic proportions. It worked on the first Xbox. Halo has created entire genres of gaming.

3:06 has not just one hit, but it has a track record of creating hit after hit after hit with tabletop games. And love the guy. He's just a sweet, soulful, awesome, hilarious guy. So to Be able to develop a friendship with him. I was like, all right, if I'm choosing projects as I usually do based on Skills I'll develop, knowledge I'll learn, and relationships I'll build that could translate outside of that project. Cause a lot of projects are gonna fail.

3:33 So if it's setting it up in a how do you win even if you lose, I was like this seems like a very good that it's something that's kinda near and dear to me, something I want more of in my life. So if you're gonna make a game, what do you have to do? You have to play a lot of games. So it's also a way of just forcing myself to get off of laptops and phones. Spend time with my friends. And uh

3:55 Here we are. It's uh It's it's landing in like eight thousand retail locations, Walmart, Target. Everywhere. It's been exclusive to Walmart for a few months. Has been a bestseller, three hundred million plus social views of gameplay, which is nuts. And uh we'll see. By the way, you in two thousand and fourteen, you had a guy working with you named Charlie Home that I've talked to a little bit. Charlie's really cool.

4:17 Yeah, I am great. And I remember he wrote a blog post on Play. Yeah. Do you remember that totally I do. I absolutely do. Yeah. And the whole point of the blog post, I was like, these guys are idiots. They don't know how to have fun. You can't just go out and play. And then as I've gotten older and I take things way more serious, I it's very strange that I have empathy for that now and I feel that where I'm like, Oh my God. Like I need to go out and have fun and just Like not everything needs to make money or not everything needs to have a purpose or be an Icel plunge that helps me optimize my morning. And I just need to do stuff just because it's fun. That's what I used to do.

4:49 Oh totally. And it's mean all of I shouldn't say all, but a lot of the sort of socially reinforced drivers and behaviors and so on. are around this, they're orbiting around this emotional valence of Taking things seriously. And there's a place for that. There are a lot of places for that.

5:10 But what I've also realized, if if you're serious all the time, you're gonna burn out. Or implode. Or just wear yourself out. Before you get the truly serious done. So it's like

5:21 Right now I'm dealing with family medical crises that I don't want to get into, but I'm dealing with that. There's a bunch of hairy shit going on. And Obviously the state of the world is pretty f Exciting to put it one way. And

5:38 having some type of recreation play for play's sake. With social interaction. It doesn't have to be a game. It doesn't have to be a a card game or a tabletop game. Could be playing tennis. Could be Anything. Watching UFC with your friends doesn't it doesn't really matter, right?

5:54 Mm. I think as a psychological release valve and as a way to recharge your batteries so that you can get back into the fray. fully charged and resilient is super, super, super important. So For all those reasons. And frankly, it's like look, I wanna have a family, I wanna do all that. to h my top priority and

6:15 There's certain things you want to practice before you need to have them. Right. And I feel like Getting back into exploring some of the things that made me so happy. And gave me so much joy. As a kid, makes some sense.

6:33 And and the older I get, the more I realize how reliable a lot of that stuff is, right? I want to be a color book penciler forever. And just getting into digital painting on an iPad and taking walking through some tutorials on YouTube with Procreate. It's like, oh wow, how did I forget about this? This is just so nourishing for me.

6:54 Is this gonna be like a good moneymaker for you? Like is this a good business decision in addition to a good kind of life fun creative quest that you went on, a creative side quest? I think it could be If it's successful, a nice little annuity that rolls in that is reasonably passive if it hits escape velocity.

7:15 Uh If I were just trying to make money, this is not the way to do it. Like a low priced physical product that is shipped from overseas, particularly with tariffs and everything, like this is not if you if you're trying to make your riches. What? I I would put this kind of in the same category as like streaming music on Spotify or writing books. Do you care about making money? Like are you motivated for more? Not really.

7:40 W when did that uh do you remember when that happened where you're like I ha my cup is full. Yeah, it was probably when I had my first one or two real startup exits. Which was what? That's that's uh Shopify? What what was the where were the first uh the first few hits that were meaningful were like Shopify, Uber, both of which were

8:00 Or More sizable, right? For me, for me. It's not like look, I'm not gonna be subsidizing a presidential campaign or buying buying a mega yacht, but I don't I don't want to do any of those things. Are you comfortable saying publicly a number where you're like You know, I don't I'm not motivated by more. Cause a lot of people will listen to this pod and they're like, when will I ever feel like that? And and I'll give you an easy pass if you don't want to say that number. Yeah, I don't want to say it. What I will say is that the number for most people will move. And I think that's both uns unsurprising and dangerous.

8:32 So a lot of my friends were like, Once I have five million I'm gonna create a woodworking shop in Oregon and just do the things I really enjoy doing. And then they get to five and then it goes to ten, then it goes to fifty, then it goes to a hundred, then it goes it just keeps going, in part because they haven't developed other gears and other interests. The only thing they know how to do well where they feel confident. And

9:00 Furthermore, they have their self worth wrapped up in is putting points on the scoreboard in the f in the form of money. And that's why I think identity diversification and trying other things where you can feel good about yourself in sharp progress, whether that's piano, archery. uh any number of other things doing complete off menu weird stuff like making a board game or a card game. It is also insurance against having a fixed gear psych a fixed gear psychology. Right.

9:33 That is a risky, risky, risky place to be. And Uh. For me I've I I think I'm maybe fortunate in that I was raised in a family, didn't have a lot of money. We were always looking for interesting adventures that that didn't cost very much.

9:51 And As I've gotten older. When I block out, say a week to do stuff with my friends. Uh these are my very old friends in some cases and some of them

10:02 And that's totally fine. I mean I pay for stuff in some cases, not always. But The stuff that we actually want to do together is some type of activity, right? It's doing wilderness training in the Rockies, which I'm doing in two weeks. It's

10:20 Going on a ski trip doesn't have to beat it. Nisako in Japan. You can do you can go to Colorado, Utah, whatever. It doesn't need to be crazy. Or it could be backcountry skiing where you're touring, in which case you have many more options. Does not have to be expensive. And the stuff that we talk about. The WhatsApp groups that started for an event that are still active are always Some activity like that. So

10:44 The stuff that I spent my money on is stuff like that. It's like I'm not afraid to spend money. I don't think money is evil. I think it's a great tool. Um, but it took me a while to psychologically

10:57 Get comfortable with a bunch of other gears. It wasn't the number. Right. Like I passed my number and I felt like I needed more. I didn't have a fixed number, but I felt like I needed more to have some degree of psychological safety, and then everything will be okay. Right. And then my problems will go away. And then you realize. That's bullshit. Like money solves money problems. Like you got plenty of work to do.

11:20 All right, I read a ton. I would say almost a book a week. And the reason I read so much is because my philosophy towards reading is I want to see what works for the winners that I love and what strategies they use. And then I want to see What mistakes w uh did they all make? What were the common flaws that they all had? And I just want to avoid that. And so Hubspot asked me to put together a list of the books that have changed my life so far in two thousand twenty five. And I did that. And so I listed out seven books that made a meaningful difference in my life and I explained What the differences that they had on me or what actions I took because of the book.

11:52 And then also I list it out my very particular ways of reading because I'm pretty strategic about how I read and how I read so much and how I remember what I read and things like that. And so I put this together in a very simple guide. It's seven books that had a huge impact on my life. And you can scan the QR code below if you want to read it. Or there's a link. You guys know what to do. There's a link in the description. Just go ahead and click it. And you'll see the guy that I made. So it's the seven books that had a massive change in my life this year so far. And then also how I'm able to read so much. So check it out below.

12:24 Well, have you guys read that um I think Bloomberg has this great article where they had high uh ultra high net worth bankers survey their clients. And it was fairly consistent at fifty thousand dollars in net worth all the way up to fifty million dollars in net worth. The answer to

12:42 When do you think you're gonna have enough was almost consistently Always two times more than what they currently have. So if you have fifty thousand you think when I have a hundred, I'm gonna be able to breathe. I have a million, when I have two I can breathe. Uh when I had heard that I

12:56 I was like, Yeah, that makes sense. Relatable I've I've been there and I could see that. But it w also left me defeated. Like, okay, so then what? Is there is there simply no answer? Is that the right answer? And I think what Tim is saying is kind of where I've landed, which is For most people

13:12 It's an imagination problem. They haven't spent the time to think about what else they want in life and therefore They just move the goalpost a little further on the On the money game or the the success game that they are super familiar with

13:25 And so it's not even a question of hitting a benchmark. It's simply like You have you have not put sufficient resources into thinking about the other Things that will give you that same sense of purpose, of progress, of a of achievement, of fulfillment. You know, what framework, Sean, do you use? Because like I I mean, I I struggle with that. Where I'm like, Well I don't know what to do. I've been doing this, this I've got one. I've got one. Okay. That's maybe a little less visible.

13:52 Which is the the social traps involved with making More money. And here's what I mean by that. As people make more money, sometimes they end up hanging out with people who have more money.

14:05 And A lot of humans, if they have enough wherewithal to make like a hundred grand a year, they want to make two hundred grand a year. Now they start hanging out with people who make two fifty a year. Okay. And now those people have new toys, new goals, more ambitious, fill in the blank. And it becomes this social relative wealth slash competition.

14:30 And I've seen this over and over again. Then people kinda trade up again in a sense. They start spending more and more time in wealthier circles, and now people are comparing Which jets they have. And oh really? You have that place in fill in the blank state? Oh yeah, well

14:47 If you ever were interested, right, I think there might be one lot left at the Yellowstone Club or Fill in the Blank, right? And There's a s there's a social risk. of having people who are at your level of wealth. Or above.

15:02 Because the natural inclination is going to be to roll uphill. And For that reason I try to spend a lot of time

15:13 around people and with people. Not just old friends, because some people are like hey, where I grew up, it's like we diverge so so far in our paths, I don't have those friendships anymore. That's fine. But spending time with like some of the world's best Fill the blank, right? Archers, swimmers.

15:31 uh super high level piano players who make next to no money. But Who you can respect really, really, really deply. who are fun to spend time with, who seem to have, in many instances, great lives and are more content than the rich people who are chasing the next

15:48 The next phantom, whatever that happens to be. Uh, and there are well adjusted, awesome people with wealth who don't suffer from this keeping up with the Joneses, but they are actually very few. In my experience. So the social piece is really important. Like who are you spending time with? And if they're all at your level of of income net worth or higher. the very natural

16:12 Evolved instinct. is I think gonna be to roll uphill into more a a more and more expensive and money dependent path. Yeah. What's your answer to that, Sean?

16:24 That do you have a framework or or or or anything to say about it? Well the first was kind of the wake up call, right? Like uh I would say like Beginning of career, twenties. It's I I I don't even have the ability to get what I want.

16:36 Regardless of what I wanted. I didn't have the skills. I was too feeble. I was too passive, I was too uh dumb, I was too unskilled, I didn't have the, you know, the the hustle. I didn't have the marketing chops. I didn't know how to get even what I wanted. The first part of my career was just to actually figure out how to even get what you want. And I started with a very simple want, which is like, oh, I want to be successful. I want to make money. I want to be financially independent. Right. And I looked around and I saw that Okay, most people Most people are uh, you know, on a bit of a financial treadmill, they're never gonna make enough where they can be financially free to have total freedom to choose what they want.

17:07 Um and they seemed to be dreading going to work. They didn't seem to be enjoying the thing they were doing either now. So they couldn't get out and they didn't like where they were. Uh, then you saw, you know, a few people made a lot of money, but they didn't really like the way that they had to make the money. These are the bankers, the consultants, and the people who were, you know, they were maybe traveling a lot. Maybe it was low creativity type of jobs, but hey, paid p paid really well. And then there was the lucky few who seem to have both, right? It's like they were making gobs of money doing creative work that they loved. And they forgot what day of the week it was because they were just so excited to get up get up and do their projects. And I just was like, okay, cool. That's kind of the first thing I

17:40 That's the first thing to want. Now when I when I got to that point, then I realized and looked around m me, you, and a bunch of our mutual friends, Sam Like You realize that Some people never re never went back and asked the question, What do I want now? So that maybe that was the right thing to want when I was twenty or is my best idea then, but when I turned thirty, that wasn't the best idea anymore of what to want.

17:59 And We have a bunch of friends, not gonna name names, but like They just keep putting points up on the scoreboard. They've already earned the last dollar they will ever spend in their life. And so now they're trading great hours for useless dollars, which is like such a wake up call of a bad trade to make. Um, and you know, at least they have fun doing it and they do feel like a sense of

18:18 Yeah. power and autonomy and you know creativity making it happen, but It became pretty clear that once you have the power Two Get whatever it is that you want, right? Or you you believe in yourself to be able to make it happen. Then the then the priority shifts to wanting the right shit. You know, what do you what do you actually want?

18:34 And you know, I looked at myself and I was like cool. My bank account got fat, but then so did I. So new thing to want. I wanna I wanna not be embarrassed at how I look. I wanna feel proud of myself. for you know, having self control and like break some of these terrible habits that are gonna cut my life short and, you know, make me sort of you know, immobile, uh you know, as the older I get.

18:53 And so that became a thing to want. And then why did I pick the piano this year? Because I was like, I don't know, what are the what are the real joys that make me happy? I love playing basketball, I love sport. The other I think thing that like people really can get lost in and like get into a flow state and just truly enjoy themselves is music. And like one is either either I'm gonna go to a bunch of concerts, but I got three little kids. It's probably not in the cards for me to go on tour and go go to a bunch of festivals this year. But what if I played music? What if I made a little dad garage band? That seems like fun.

19:21 And um and I stole a word from Tim on this. He I think was talking abolished, and he said he he called him post economic. And I don't know if Tim I don't think you had ever used that before. At least I hadn't heard anyone use that before. Did you make that up? No, I didn't make it up. I heard it from somebody in Silicon Valley. Oh we totally. So we stole it from you and sort of almost like as a joke. The Aoli versus Mayo. So I was like, Oh, post economic is a great way to say I'm rich. We had uh an an MFM t shirt that said post economic. So I kinda laughed about it. Excentric versus fucking crazy. Yeah. So so then I was like, well what does that actually mean? What what the definition of it is isn't that you have all the money you ever want. It's that you no longer need to make decisions based on money as the primary Like motivator. Which is how I had made a lot of decisions. So Sam, to answer your question, I think it's

20:13 All of that getting to the point of Realizing that the most important question now is what are the right things to want. Realizing that the decider of what to want isn't money anymore. And maybe maybe that was right when I was in my twenties, maybe it was wrong, but at least it's no longer needs to be the case. And now Pick a new word. Mine is fun.

20:31 So I wanna do the things that I enjoy the act of doing them. Um not like doing them for some future payoff. Uh, and I I told you this, uh you know, piano's a great example of this'cause I thought, Oh man, it's so cool to be able to play this song. And I realized Nobody gives a shit if you could play the piano. Like if anyone could play the piano, they just sort they sort of nod, like, Oh, you can play the piano, cool. They've moved on. They don't want to sit there and listen to a seven minute, you know, Beethoven, you know

20:56 second minuet. Like they don't care about any of that. So you literally can't show it off, even if you wanted to. It's only fun Because it's really fun to play. Um, and it's a great like you know, so pick things that are in that category. The other thing, Sam, the other trick is writing it out. So like I think when you write

21:12 You you force in a level of honesty in yourself if you do it right. If you write something that doesn't feel true, it stands out to you as soon as you said it. Uh as soon as you put it down on paper and then you can, you know, sort of edit that. And I find that Most people do not edit their thoughts very much.

21:27 Right. They they're only the author. They're rarely the editor. And I sort of just take Most of the things I think and do as first drafts. that need a really great editor to come back in and try to make this good. And so I try to edit it. Like I have a post on medium. I don't use medium anymore, but I wrote What I Want Out of Life, age twenty eight. And I wrote like a stream of consciousness, a ramble.

21:49 But I write that like I kinda wrote that every year. Even in in the post I wrote I wanna rewrite this every year so I can see myself evolving and figuring out what I actually want out of life. Right. Like I think being intentional in that way has helped. Trading great hours for useless dollars. That's great. That's cool.

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22:34 Pim, you said this on the last pod, you go I've been aro I've met enough wealthy people to know it's like food. You know, you could be starving. You can eat, you can eat till you're full, you can eat till you're stuffed, you can eat till you make yourself sick. You know, it's not m money isn't the answer. It is sort of obvious, you know, once you say it like that.

22:50 Yeah, let me I'll just riff on that too,'cause as as you were Mentioning how you think about this and approach it, a couple of things. pop to mind. Just having seen I mean dozens and h probably a hundred plus people. go from not having money to having.

23:06 More money than they'll ever need. Uh, and also just seeing people do well. They don't have to be millionaires, but it's like they've they've done really well for themselves, right? They have enough. Is The the the first I would say is

23:21 Much like You hear it's the economy stupid. Stupid. I think it's It's the relationship, stupid. Let me explain what I mean by that. If you want to be everybody wants to be happy, that's

23:38 A very ill defined term oftentimes, but it's like Spend try to spend your time around happy p happy people. That's it. I mean it sounds so dumb and obvious, but it's like took me a while to figure this out. It's like the most reliable way to make yourself happier. More upbeat is to spend time around default upbeat people. Right. It's like it works. All the time.

24:00 And similarly, it's like if if you don't want to complain, don't s like spend time around people who don't really complain. Right. If you want to be around people. If you want to make a lot of money, sure, you can spend time around people who make a lot of money, but those are often not the same people. And uh

24:18 For me. When I'm booking these trips every year, I'm blocking out time to be with those types of people because my defaults historically are like hyper vigilant. Super focused. Obsessed with detail. I

24:32 generally I would say, like a lot of humans don't love the overwhelming uncertainty of the world, so I like to exert control on something to feel like I have a toll hold. And if I can't find anything else, it's probably gonna be Investing, making money, who knows, right? For lack of a better option. And so blocking out that time where it's like it's the relationship stupid. If you want to have a low conflict life

24:55 Spend time around low conflict people. Have you um Because of your job and I mean we experienced this but to a minor uh a bit, but because of your job you're able to meet Like You you have the best fame, which is you're still famous mainstream, but

25:08 But famous people, the cool people, the experts like you. Uh they they l they love you, which is really neat. Who would you put in like the top three of like your best buddies that uh are from your podcast? Ooh, good question. Uh

25:22 Well, I mean, just because it's top of mind, uh Alan Lee, honestly, we've become super close. And that is hard for me. as an adult, I've also been very I've always been very guarded and slow to trust. So even when I was in college, I didn't make a lot of friends. I mean, I was very hesitant. So the fact that we gelled so well.

25:44 And have become really close is just awesome. Because I I I if you had asked me, like you think you're gonna make any super close friends, right? If you had a parking lot of twenty spots of your absolute closest friends in the world, is anyone new gonna Potentially take one of those spots. I'm like absolutely no way. So uh Alan was on the p our pod probably six months ago. If so if you're listening to this, go back and listen to Alan. He's the man. He's awesome. Uh so he would be one.

26:09 Uh, I would say there are a lot of friends with whom I've just deepened relationships and the podcast has been A pretext to just Hang up. Right. And like In person, we'll have dinner the night before, hang out, do a podcast, but there's all of this social

26:25 interaction around it. That's true for a lot of my friends. I mean, I will use the podcast just as a way Yeah. To ensure that two busy friends actually remain friends. Who's on your list. Oh, there's so many. I mean, Josh Waitskin would be one. If people don't know who he is, they should check him out. Uh absolutely. master class in just about every type of skill acquisition.

26:47 Uh I mean just the people who come to mind, like someone like a Scott Belski. Maybe like a you know having Chase Jarvis, Kevin Rose. doing the random show on a regular basis, which is this format where we just Catch up. I mean kinda like we're catching up right now. Talking about what's new, what's going on, what's on our minds.

27:05 new technology, whatever that we've come across. So doing that regularly with Kevin is like a f a foundational way that we actually keep connected in real time, right? Because we can t I mean, I probably text with Kevin every other day. But It's not the same. It is not the same as like sitting in person or even on video and having a real conversation long form. It's not the same. So I'd say I use the podcast for that. Trying to think of of some other folks. Uh

27:34 I think Rick Rubin's first long form podcast ever was on my podcast, we did it in his sauna at Shangri La before it burned down in Malibu. And I had met him prior to that. Uh a bunch, but

27:49 you know, we became pretty close. We're not in touch all the time, but like we're we're definitely friendly. uh people like Laird Hamilton, the surfer, and Gabby Reese. I'm just r thinking of Malibu now. Uh The list is really, really long. It's like if you look at the people who I initially met during the launch of the four hour work week. I try and I mean I'm barring from Naval Ravan here, but it's like if you're not gonna work with someone, I think he says for a lifetime don't work with them for

28:19 five minutes or something like that. And Naval I bel I would trust to actually stick to that. Uh, I think mine is is a little softer around the edges, but it's like if if you can't see yourself spending real time. with someone for five years. Doesn't have to be personal, but like professional Personal or combination. Like don't spend

28:38 five hours with that person or five weeks with that person. And there are gonna be exceptions, of course, that you have to make just to make life work. Uh But I really try to I really try to select my guests that way when possible. You also uh one of the things you just said about like you do the podcast, but you get dinner the night before, you hang out, maybe you do work out together, you do st go for a hike, whatever, those types of things.

29:01 One of the great I think Hacks uh Is You had this term lifestyle design, but there's sort of like lifestyle sampling.

29:10 'Cause when you go hang out with somebody, you go into their world for a little bit. Yeah, totally. You get to see like Yeah, what are they thinking about all the time? What do they do? How do they interact with their family? Like How do they struggle? What is their day to day? Cause I think from the outside, it's pretty easy to see what somebody's accomplished after like a 10 year arc. Or like what they have. versus like how they live. And I think how they live is much more informative to picking up like, you know, your sampling at Costco, like

29:34 Ooh, I like that actually. I wouldn't have ever really thought of it. I couldn't have really experienced it, but once I saw it, I couldn't really unsee it. And so I think like Figuring out how to sample From other people.

29:46 Does a lot for that like imagination. Does a lot for you figuring out what you really want. Or or contrasts. It's like, Oh my God. I thought that the what this guy's done is so respect respectable and admirable. But I would not want to live this day. This is his day. He lives this three hundred days a year. I would not want this day for three days. Uh, but he does, sure, great for him. But I now know with absolute clarity it's not a intellectual exercise, like I felt it.

30:10 Um, I know it viscerally now that that's not what I want. Yeah. Yeah, the the sampling and window in is incredibly helpful also for Deciding who You actually want to model.

30:24 Also. who you might want to imitate because it's very easy to look at such and such. And I know some amazing, awesome, say hedge fund managers. But there are also a lot of very, very wealthy. Miserable cunts out there. And you know, like one guy carries divorce papers in takes his briefcase around just in case. And it's like Wait, what? Yeah, incredible. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like okay. You could look at the

30:53 The scoreboard. Yeah, I know, but you could look at the scoreboard, right? If you just read the profile on the Midas list or whatever, and you'd be like Oh my God, I wanna, I wanna get that guy's playbook. I wanna imitate it, but there might be side effects to that playbook, right? Like, sure, maybe the guy's a douche out of the box, but it could be also. the the behaviors and the habits and the way He or she has built their company and managed their people. also directly contribute to like all of the family strife and multiple divorces and disasters.

31:23 Right. It could be that they're actually There's a causal link. Not just a correlation. So For that reason, I mean, I really do try to spend time getting into the personal with a lot of my guests and I spend a lot of people who have

31:38 cross functional ability, professionally and Personally. So when When so people, for instance, like I mentioned Laird and Gabby. Like Amazing parents.

31:49 Really tight family. And I I really like their dynamic as a couple and their parenting style. I've seen it. I've s I mean, I've seen a lot of it. uh Kelly Starrett and his wife Juliet Starrett, who's like a powerhouse behind the scenes with everything. The way that they've raised their kids, uh who I've known since they're really small now, and they've turned out like they're in college, and it's like, Okay. They've shipped a fully awesome human.

32:17 And they have a very tight relationship with them. That is not The standard, at least in the United States, from what I've seen. And for that reason, it's like, okay, we might as well take whatever their professional accomplishments are. And

32:33 I mean, I I if they had ten, twenty times as much money It would not change it would not necessarily increase the amount that I want to emulate them. Sean and I reference this all the time. We're like who's live Do we admire? Uh like all all facets of it, if as a whole. My answer was Laird. Did you have an answer, Sean?

32:52 Jesse Hitzler. Yeah. Jesse Isler would also be Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't I don't know the guy that way, you know, and I'm not trying to like He's my friend. I'm not trying to make him a god, but like But if I think about blueprints, he has this you know, he has this approach to like just adventure that I didn't have in my game. So you see it and you're like, Oh wow, this guy's really Got just more unforgettable days. And so I I have this like

33:15 This is Cheesy, but I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna debut this. I'm gonna take this out of the closet. All right, Sam. But this is how I've been living my year, okay? Sam, you're not a you're not a real sports guy. You're like uh skateboarding and like just like only lifting weights. Like but in in real sports where

33:30 People play games and there's you know, like the guys who who who are famous that we all admire. Uh there's these stat there's these statistical clubs. So like in uh in baseball, there's the thirty thirty club, which is like you hit thirty home runs and steal thirty bases. Two things that usually don't go together, power and speed. And this year, like I haven't even cared about baseball for you know ten years. But Shoheio Tai. I'm like, oh, this Japanese guy hit fit he hit the fifty fifty club first guy ever.

33:57 Oh, and he's actually a pitcher too, like Babe Ruth, I gotta w Who is this guy? I I must know. Who has put this like on these things that each individually are great. But it's like ambidextrously great, right? He could do it with both hands, type of thing. And so In basketball, there's the fifty forty ninety club. It's like who's truly an elite shooter? You can measure it statistically. And so I created The twenty twenty twenty club for myself. And it was basically

34:20 Hold on. You're gonna make fun of me for exercising, but you could have your own twenty twenty club that you've written down. Come on. These are uh of similar levels of nerdiness. Of course. If you if you spot it, you got it, baby. Uh twenty, twenty, twenty Plan here is It's lose twenty pounds. That's the fitness side of of where I'm trying to be greater than I was last year. Um There's twenty, which is like a business term as I add twenty million of equity to the to me and Ben's like small boy portfolio.

34:49 And then there's Twenty off script days. And this is what I really stole from Jesse and got me like excited about doing this, which was He basically just I I love my routine. I love my normal day. But it's like you said, like what any extreme strength carries with it an extreme weakness. I can just live a routine life. And all my days blend together and I just do the same shit and I really have low adventure because I'm so I'm so comfortable and so and so uh pleased with my so content with my day to day. So creating these like twenty off script days where I'm like, no, I'm gonna throw away the routine and I'm gonna plan out

35:19 twenty off script days this year and I've been doing it and I'm like This has led to a a a A a different like I don't know, level of intentionality of how to live life that that's been Been good for me this year, but I felt so cheesy about it. I didn't tell anyone.

35:33 That's pretty good. How do you have an unscripted day? What does that look like? It's off of my normal script. You know, it's it's you know what I mean? It's like I have a script. I wake up, I go work out, I do this, I do that, and I like that day that I've architected. Yeah. But I need some serendipity, I need some forced adventure. And so but I it's not just gonna happen by default. By default I won't do it.

35:55 Uh so I have to like block out the day. Like, oh that day on the calendar, it's blue. I know what a blue day is. Blue Day is I gotta do something I totally wasn't gonna do. I totally never do it. So what's an example of uh so that's every two weeks, basically, or something like that. Roughly two weeks, yeah. Well yeah, gimme what was your last Three. Um okay, so my last three. Um

36:15 V the last one was on Friday. I I hired a professional basketball trainer. To take me through a workout that he puts pro basketball players through. So I woke up and I Cleared the calendar. This is why I missed the podcast, by the way. I cleared the calendar, I woke up at six AM and I went and trained for three hours. Like you said you were sick. Yeah, like I was late uh because I was doing this and I lost track of time'cause I was so like engrossed in it. You know what I mean? Another one. I again cleared the whole calendar and I just read

36:45 All my favorite fiction books as a kid. So I read two bo two Harry Potter books basically in a two day span. T to totally just g let myself indulge in something that's fun. That's kinda like nostalgic. I would never have the time to go do this. But oh my god, I had I had such a blast doing it.

37:01 Another one. I tried to make a song. I've never made a song before. And I was like today? I shall try to make a song. And and some ways inspired by Tim. When when we were hanging out, you said something like I was like, so what'd you do today? Like what what's a day in the life? And you had told me you had I think you had been painting or like archery or something like that. Some like totally random fun pursuit. But the way you said it in like classic Tim Ferris fashion where it's not just like, Yeah, I just did this because I liked it. It was like

37:26 Well, if you think about it sort of systematically here, and he was basically like I have like a creativity gym. It's like a place I go for an hour forty five minutes. And I get creative reps. And it just helps me be more creative. And I thought, well, that kinda makes I kinda like that. I d I like that justification, you know, I'm good with that. And so I started doing a creative gym. So Tim, this year I picked a I you know.

37:47 Uh Missogee. Jesse Itzel came on here and talked about the concept of Missogi. A one a challenge that sort of defines the year. And I should have done it in something that was practical. I think when I sat down with the pen and paper, I was like, Cool, this is definitely gonna be Something about getting in shape, or it's gonna be something about making money, it's just gonna be something about growing the podcast. It's gonna be something like that. And then I just decided and then somehow thirty minutes later I was like I'm gonna learn to play the piano. And suddenly I'm going to piano lessons. I think that's gonna be so much better for you. It well, it already is. I mean, I'm six months in now, but I've been going to these lessons. I go to my teacher, I walk in with my beginners one A book.

38:22 I'm like giving Brandon like you know a fist pound fist pound on the way in, like, you know, everyone else in the room is seven years old. You know, there's other parents there, but they're with their kids and they're like where's your kid? And I'm like No, I'm the kid here. Um and I just started taking this philosophy you know more and more seriously. My my trainer says this great thing, he goes Kids, dogs, and dead people. And I was like, What what does that mean? He goes, That's who you want to like spend your time with. He's like dogs have it figured out, dude. Dogs you know, dogs are unconditional lovers. They're you know, they're here for play, they're th they're loyal.

38:52 There's so much you can learn from a dog. Kids, you know, like our kids, my kids come in and interrupt our workouts all the time. And they wanna play obstacle course, they wanna play this, they wanna play that, and like And we actually integrate it into our workout, but it because my trainer wants to spend more time with kids. And the last one is dead people, which is like you know, the wise people who've written books over time. Like how do you spend More time lit with the timeless versus the timely.

39:14 And so, you know, it's easy to get caught up in the news versus, you know, go read Seneca or something like that. So you know, those have been a little I don't know. parts of my compass of like where where do I put my focus? Where do I put my attention? Death. Yeah, totally. I've just a quick sidebar story that's similar to your piano story, where they're like, Where's your kid?

39:35 So I have, as you alluded to, been taking archery super seriously. I mean, it's fun. It's definitely not practical. And I also like trying to figure out a system for training and all these things, right? So they're not mutually exclusive. And I just love archery and I've had the

39:56 the opportunity to train with some amazing folks like Jake Kaminsky, two time silver medalist, and I've trained with a number of Kind of legendary folks. In short short stents, right? So I flew to California and trained with uh one such person. And

40:12 He invited me to his house. He's like, Come train at my house. All right, so I show up at the house and Every single person shooting on the line is Somewhere between I would say six and Twelve.

40:24 Right. Every single one. Asian. Right. a lot of the Asian countries, especially South Korea, just dominate everyone.

40:33 Uh historically. There are just many, many standard deviations. Beyond anyone else. It's it's pretty phenomenal. Uh South Korea on million levels is an interesting case study, kinda like Singapore. Anyway. And at one point I'm doing my thing like off to the side because I'm still very remedial. I'm in like the short school bus version. And these kids are just slaying they're all training to compete and stuff. And at one point

40:58 Coach pulls me over and he's like, join the circle, join the circle. Like, okay. And so he pulls all the kids together and he's giving them this motivational speech. But it's a very like Tough love. East Asian motivational speech. Anyone who's listening who has like first generation parent or parents who were born in like Korea, Japan, China will know what I'm talking about. And he's giving this sort of tough motivational speech. And then he and then he turns to me and he goes,

41:25 He goes. This is Tim. He is an old man. Very old men. But he is taking this very seriously and training art and I was like Oh I see. The the case study old guy, and I was like, I'm good with it. I'm totally good with it. And uh

41:41 I find that freeing though, right? Because it's like I'm not competing against these kids. These kids are gonna grow up to be far better than I am. And uh so that kind of I need to do this to be The best is Something you just can't even justify as a delusion or an obsession, do you know what I mean? So you have to just Figure out how to enjoy it.

42:05 for what you're able to do. Dude, I I I still haven't left like the Uncle Rico phase where I'm like Yeah, I was pretty fat. I might be able to make the Olympic team in the bobsled. Like I still like you like I might Like it's I'm not old. I'm getting to the point now where I'm about phased out of that where it's like, dude, you're past your prime, not a chance. But I still am like I could

42:25 I think I could I could probably do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. And uh It makes exercise not fun sometimes because it is like uh'cause you are always so serious. I need to uh But in about two years it's gonna be like well past my prime. It's like you don't have a chance. But I do find it Uh hard. And I you you did something funny. One of the first times we hung out, I asked you, it's very similar to what Sean just said about how you had a very specific reason about something. I said uh

42:51 You know, that's a cool dog leash and you're like, Oh, this dog leash? You see this dog leash, it's made of horse hair. And it's perfect because it has it doesn't have any allergy at there's like a you had a very specific reason for like something like relatively small. And I was like uh That's exhausting. Have you had to tell yourself sometimes like I need to be but it's hard. The reason you are working where you are is because you are so precise and so exact, which I don't think a lot of people know this. Like I've worked with you and I've quoted you on like in the hustle before, and I think I messed up an aposta free and you got on me and you're like, No, I said it this way and I was like

43:26 You're totally right. And you are this is why you are so who you are, is because you are so precise. And also that can wear you out sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, it can it can be exhausting. I mean I have I think a certain unusual endurance for that type of thing. And I mean, I'll read legal documents that three or four lawyers have combed over and like within

43:50 thirty seconds I'll spot stuff. It's just I have an eye for that, which is a blessing and a curse, right? It will go like if I walk into A room. And something I remember this is gonna be this isn't really Selling it, but I remember at one point did this renovation in a bathroom.

44:11 And I walked in and my girlfriend at the time loved how everything turned out. And I walked in and I was like, mirror's off center. And she's like, What are you talking about? Like how you can't even tell that. It's I'm standing like fifteen feet away and I was like, No, it's an eighth of an inch too far to the left. And then she m we measured it as an eighth of an of an inch too far to the left. But it's so The downside is that kind of stuff can drive you crazy and exhaust you. You also caught me with the dog training. That would have been right. in my like obsessive period of trying to figure out dog training with my first

44:42 the first dog as an adult. So yeah, I would have had a reason for everything. And uh And What might be unexpected for folks is like I actually as a kid and certainly with my friends

44:58 If I just had a gathering of friends. Uh, five days ago, like a couple of my oldest friends. Like I'm a goofy motherfucker, but It doesn't come out that much and uh I subconsciously or consciously don't let it come out a whole lot. And When I've asked for instance

45:18 Something I've done with friends in the past is uh we we don't do a whole lot of New Year's resolutions and stuff like that, but occasionally For New Year's resolutions and also if there's a word to focus on for the year, we'll be like, Okay, we get to assign each other those things. Right. Like I'll give you a New Year's resolution, you give me one. You give me four to focus on, I'll give you one. And two one of my friends is just like goofy. That's your word for the next year. He's like, I see that side of you. Nobody really sees that side of you. He's like, for ye for not just other people, but especially for you.

45:47 F You need to do more of that. And so I have really tried to block out time. Especially weeks with friends or a long weekend with friends. That's one of the first things I do every year is I block that out.

46:03 I reserve something, I pay for it, and I'm just like you guys just have to show up. And It's a sump cost. It's the right kind of sunk cost. Right. Uh

46:13 So I do think about this and yes, the precision and the anal retentiveness and all that can be exhausting. You know, I I at least what I like about you is you don't do the uh Elon Musk thing where he's like You don't wanna be me. It's painful being me. Right? He like almost like martyrs it up where he's like You know.

46:34 Yeah. Looks off into the distance and pauses dramatically and then just sort of you know really hams it up about that stuff or a more balanced thing is like, well, it really serves me in this way. And it's not fully true. I also do these other things and I'm working on that. It's like a I don't know, just a much more human way to deal with it. Uh. Yeah, it's a useful tool. I mean, it's like a really sharp knife, but imagine if you had a really sharp knife that was all blade, no handle, right?

47:01 It's like if you squeeze that two. Tightly. You're gonna hurt yourself. And I feel like that's true with a lot of superpowers. Like when you find somebody Who seems to have A strong power.

47:14 Whether that's nature, nurture, or some combination. the the biggest weaknesses or the biggest curses are typically sitting right next to it. Or just the other side of the same coin. They're Typically very, very closely related.

47:32 What do you think was your superpower? Because Uh you you you For anyone listening. I I assume You're definitely still a big deal.

47:40 for the twenty somethings, but when Sean and I were twenty somethings You are the guy. You still are the guy. You inspired all of us to do this. Uh and it sounds funny to say it because what you were doing now or then is so common now.

47:55 But it was it was so weird that when you it wrote you wrote some of these things that were like, Oh, that's so obvious. You taught all of us how to do it and you sort of coined a lot of the terms, you invented a lot of the stuff. What do you think was your superpower to um If you had to pick one that allowed you to kinda be I mean

48:12 You're you Tim Ferris is like a noun that we you're the Tim Ferris of this. I mean w that allowed you to become that. I think there are a few. Things I mean one that comes to mind is Uh

48:26 I I was born premature, had a lot of health issues as a kid. So when my mom put me in to say kitty wrestling, I couldn't thermoregulate I would overheat. Uh and that's still true to this day. So I started trying to experiment with different ways to train, different ways to compete. Didn't do that seriously until maybe like twelve or thirteen, but

48:46 Wrestling has weight cutting, so you sort of have an inbuilt experimentation at a certain point. And then I was like, Oh, okay, well how can I wake up more effectively? I need to figure out how to lose water weight, okay, the things that you do deal with water loss. are called diuretics. What are the risks of diuretics? Okay, let's figure out is there anything over the counter that I as a high school student can get that acts as a potassium sparing diuretic, blah blah blah. By the way, guys, don't do that. Terrible for your body. But I I think that that experimentation became a habit really early on.

49:22 And then For For instance, for the four hour work week, I mean I wrote and tossed a lot of that book multiple times. And

49:33 The only way I was finally able write it and feel good about it. was to sit down. And write it as if I was

49:44 Writing an email to two very specific friends. One friend who felt sh trapped in a job that he didn't Like, which was like a finance job and he was. had golded handcuffs basically. I mean, at the time it wasn't a lot of money, but for a recent grad, it was it was not bad. And he felt like he was he knew he was going down a path that he didn't want to travel, but he couldn't.

50:05 extricate himself. And then the other one was a friend who had started those his own business and felt The same way. He's like I've created this thing. I can't just quit like an employee. Now what? Now what do I do? And I sat down and basically wrote

50:21 The book. As if I'd had two glasses of wine and was emailing two friends. Which meant like all the warts, all the worries, all the petty concerns. And the weirdness. That they would be familiar with. They would know all of that about me.

50:35 I just put it out there. And I Think That that contributed another

50:41 Another P I think that contributed a lot, frankly, like the personal being the most universal. If you're writing and you try to sound smart, you're o you're almost I mean I I think it can be a huge Handicap, like big. Possibility of dead on arrival is high.

50:57 For something like that. Um So embracing your weird self, I think. can go a long way. And then the last piece is um

51:07 I am naturally very, very, very curious. And I do have that tolerance for monotony and repetition that a lot of folks have trouble with. Whether that's language learning, archery, or just

51:22 In the early days before Aura, before Woop, before any of this. Like my patients with doing something like trying to find a first generation continuous glucose monitor, which was in the four hour body, which came out two thousand ten. So I probably started messing around two thousand eight, two thousand nine. As far as I know, I may have been the first non diabetic to use one of those. And then to deal with all the pain and frustration Using this basically. Beeper side holster to like

51:52 Capture data, export the data. and comb through it. It was so manual. But for whatever reason that kind of stuff doesn't bother me. So I was I was able to run experiments I think other people would find torturous. And

52:06 Then I'll I'll just add one more thing and I look I'm guessing to the best of Of my ability, right? It's hard to say exactly why things turned out the way they turned out. The last one is I do think I'm pretty good at. Identifying trends. And Also identifying trends that are gonna converge in interesting ways.

52:23 I don't know why that's the case. But I I do think that I'm pretty good at it. Being in Silicon Valley or uh Well. to my generation, certainly, you're like relatively early, getting there in two thousand and staying through two thousand seventeen. also allowed me to just have a very, very, very high density of

52:43 Serendipity. And seeing technology. Even if you're not a venture capitalist or an angel investor, it's like if you live right there in the switchbox, it's in the air, right? You just hear conversations, you bump into Randas. at cocktail parties or whatever. So you you if you're really paying attention, taking notes You can sometimes figure things out.

53:04 So I'd say those are a few that come to mind. Running my company Hampton, it gives me the chance to meet with hundreds of different businesses. And I'm always surprised by how many of them still use spreadsheets. Emails and clunky tools that do not talk to each other. It's like watching someone build a house with duct tape. So here's my take.

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54:09 So stop cobbling together different tools and solutions and head to zero code.com. That's zero code as in the word zero and then code Q O D E. Again, code is with a Q and tell them that Sam sent you. When you create content. Or you blog? You're right.

54:27 You podcast. It seems like you make a Uh you make a decision. And that decision is about what you're interested in, but also kind of who would be interested in this. is kind of baked into it. So for example

54:39 There's things you can do that might get more views on YouTube, but it might be views of people who you're not that interested in attracting, right? Like um Whereas I've seen that for you The people that

54:52 probably you respect and I respect, they respect your work. And now you've gotten to this like wonderful outcome there of what I call like sort of like I don't I wanna call it like luxury content, but it's definitely like up market in a way, right? It's not um Kind of just lowest common denominator content. Is that Were you intentional about that or like I I guess how do you think about that?'Cause I don't think

55:11 This is a bit of content nerdery, but like, you know, from one kind of creator to another. Like how do how do you balance those trade offs or think about that those those opportunities, those options, those forks on the road of like Uh I'll give you an example. Uh, we just had Alex Hermosy on the podcast and I think he's doing a great job on YouTube. But there was a season where if you looked at his YouTube Like thumbnail history is title history. It was like

55:33 If you're broke and do this. If you're totally stuck and like, you know, do this. And every th single title had if you're broke, do this. And then he was like surprised that. You know, he was attracting a bunch of people who were broke to you know his content. Well you kind of that was the magnet you created. Um whereas I think other people do it do it slightly differently. He's made adjustments, by the way. He's that's not his whole thing, but As just an as an example. Yeah. Yeah, uh

55:58 So it has been super, super deliberate. on my side, not to aim upscale, but never to deliberately dumb things down or pretend to be interested in things that I'm not interested in. Uh, I would say also one thing I left out of maybe that prior list of factors is I took and still take, but especially during the

56:24 Let's just call it kind of nineteen ninety eight, even prior to that, but especially like nineteen ninety eight. to the publication of the first book, I took writing incredibly seriously. Incredibly, incredibly, incredibly seriously. And I I don't think that is a skill that is gonna go out of style, even with AI. Uh, I I really feel like and part of that is

56:46 the practice of writing makes you a cleaner thinker, a crisper thinker, a more capable thinker, even if you never share what you're writing. What does taking it seriously look like on a daily basis? Well, taking it seriously for me looked like at the time I was in school that I took the hardest writing classes I could find. and took one class by John McPhee who's one of Pulsar Prize and it's just this legend in nonfiction writing. And that was an ass kicker of a class. And

57:15 Just to just to make it really concrete what can happen. I was shocked by this because I didn't expect it. This was as a kid, a college kid? This was in college. Yeah. This is my senior I guess it was my senior year in college. And The the class consisted of like twelve students you had to apply. It was hard to get into. And then

57:33 There was a three hour seminar a week where he would talk about John McFalk about structure. He's he's very well known for how he structures different pieces of writing. And then y you'd have a writing assignment. And then he would do a one on one with you to review your writing assignment, which let's just say it's like a three to Ten page peace.

57:51 And he would always hand edit those pieces and give them back to you beforehand. And you might have, let's just say, three pages of Typed out writing. So right, printed out writing. And you'd get it back and his red ink would be

58:07 It would seem like it's the same amount of ink as your black ink. And most of it was like, This word makes no sense. You have no idea what this means. This is pea soup, which means just like word salad. He's like, This is redundant and He could make the piece fifty percent shorter without losing anything. And as I got trained to be more concise and uh just have higher kind of density of of meaning without the fluff.

58:34 My grades in all my other classes went up. Even though that class took a ton of time. Which is wild. Uh and Th and then taking it seriously otherwise means that I'm reading books on writing. So anything I can get a hold of, like

58:51 On writing by Stephen King. It's my favorite. Which is not even my genre. Right. Uh, Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. Also not by genre. These are both mostly focused on fiction. Books on screenwriting. I'd read read screenwriting to try to understand story arc. By the way, you can apply that to nonfiction.

59:08 Uh now you can get all sorts of other books. Draft number four by John McFee, which is based on the class that he taught at Princeton for Age. And talks a lot about structure. Uh I think it's On writing well?

59:23 Or something like that. It's by William Zinsner. But I just devoured all these books and kept my notes. I still have a three ring binder with my notes from John McVie's class from college. I still have All of my notes. And uh also paying people to review your stuff.

59:42 Or asking people to review stuff. So even before I had published anything, when I would write something. Uh, if you have friends who are in law school or went to law school, even if they don't practice law, great proofreaders. Because what are they paid to find anything that's ambiguous, anything that's redundant, if they're accustomed to doing contract review, like lawyers or People who are trained to be lawyers great at proofreading. Is this only nonfiction stuff that you like to that you were referring to?

1:00:12 Uh. I was I was exclusively nonfiction for what does that mean? Like a advice. I mean you're only twenty one, were you giving advice or is it just like No, no, it could be it could be uh not not necessarily advice. Actually most of it would not be advice. Most of it would be something like, for instance, a writing assignment might be Really broad. So he would say there's a statue in this courtyard a mile from here.

1:00:36 Write three write three pages. And it has to have as a theme that sculpture. And so the students in the class would come at it from Every possible angle. Like you could you could take it anywhere you want.

1:00:48 You could it could be like the grandson of the person who made it and you tell the story of the grandson and the you know, the the the motherland or Uh yeah, it could be the aesthetics, anything. So he would deliberately keep it pretty broad, or he would say have an assignment that's like Interview someone. And I'm making this up because I I remember how I executed on it, but he'd be like, go interview someone you would normally

1:01:12 Never have a reason to talk to. I was like, Okay, so like find somebody who's like Sweeping the floors and like interview them. for an hour or two and write your entire piece on that person. Again, keeping it pretty broad so you'd get a lot of different types of pieces.

1:01:28 And so I would have something like that. that you could you could get proof. And then as I when I graduated, I was still practicing writing, but I didn't have a class, right? So I would Uh

1:01:41 I would try to write pieces for at the time. Like Black Belt magazine or Maxim magazine. Even as even as a student, just for fun, I was trying to get stuff published in in big magazines. Didn't always succeed, but occasionally got something in. Fortunately now. I mean you can find the curricula of so many good classes online.

1:02:02 from so many amazing universities and Teachers. Just get a couple of friends and go through it together and then proofread each other's stuff, critique each other's stuff. I mean, it it's like you can do that though. It takes some planning, but you could certainly do it. Uh and then to come back to your Question, Sean.

1:02:19 Uh I figured out pretty early on and I'm not sure when I first read it, but Reading Kevin Kelly's One Thousand True Fans, I mean, my philosophy was always pretty tightly Aligned with that.

1:02:33 Because when I lost when I launched my sports nutrition company way back in the day, right? The for the first real company that I launched. I had tried various things before that. When it finally worked is when I applied very tight constraints. And I said, Okay, I'm not going after X market, which is huge. I'm not going after why market like sports performance, which is too still too big and too expensive for me to reach. With paid marketing, for instance. I mean this is Before.

1:03:01 effectively all social media. I was like, okay, I'm gonna focus on Certain power sports like powerlifting, Olympic weightlifting. I'm gonna focus on boxing, but particularly MMA, which was very early days. I mean, to give you an idea, like it was it was affordable for a startup to sponsor the UFC and be on pay per view, right? It was early, early days. And I'm just gonna go after these very small segments.

1:03:27 with the idea that And Matt Cutz at the time of Google had a great presentation on this. I think he called it Katamadi, which was a video game reference, but basically you start with something he was talking about in the context of a blog. You start at very, very narrow. And then over time as you build an audience you can broaden you can broaden and this you're sort of rolling a ball that collects more and more until you have a lot of latitude to write about or do kind of whatever you want, which is fortunately where I feel I am now, more or less, right? But in the beginning, it was very tightly constrained.

1:04:01 And I suppose if you're honest with yourself and you're your weird self, the stuff I already talked about. And if the personal is the most universal and you're kind of scratching your own itch, because the four hour work week was the book I couldn't find for myself, right? You would go to the bookstore And either it was like How to Run a Fortune Five Hundred Company by Jack Welch or it was

1:04:21 like the minimalist guide to convincing yourself that money doesn't matter. And it was like, Okay, well, I'm not gonna like recycle my lint and I think. do I'll make my own sheets and do all this stuff. I'm not I I'm not that person, right? I don't wanna be that person. with super extreme friality and sort of uh uh living a purely aesthetic lifestyle, but I'm I also have no desire to be Jack Walsh. It's like, well, where's the stuff in between that I actually care about? And there were some books in small medium sized businesses, but

1:04:51 I couldn't find it. So when I scratched my own itch. Did all these experimentations and then wrote it. If you are sufficiently authentic to yourself and that word is so overused. But if you if you actually Or

1:05:07 truthful in how you represent yourself and all the quirks. It's not gonna resonate with Uh Yeah, eight billion people, at least not off the bat, right? Your early adopters are gonna be pretty Tightly confined.

1:05:21 And I think there was an element of luck in so much as I was in Silicon Valley. I was tech forward. I was focusing on new tools. Some of that some of that ended up after the fact being deliberate with launch strategy for the four hour work week. But They also happen to have

1:05:39 Incredible capability of broadcasting. Right. And And that that also contributed. But my feeling is and when I put up a blog post or I put out a podcast episode.

1:05:52 And You know, I've I I've my team has also been sort of indoctrinated into this. Just because I've been doing it for so long. Is I don't want

1:06:03 A hundred percent of my audience. To like any episode. I want Ten percent of my audience. To love.

1:06:10 Each episode. Or each blog post. I want a very, very strong reaction. Positive. Like I'm I don't I don't I don't fully subscribe to the PT Barnum. You know, just

1:06:23 measure the value of PR by the inch kind of thing. I I don't totally subscribe to that. Uh and I assume over time, like people are too busy to read all my stuff or listen to all my podcasts anyway, but it's like over time, if one out of every ten is like a holy fucking shit. This is for me.

1:06:41 Then If you have the endurance. Part of that. is scratching your own edge. I don't I think it's very hard to sustain something over the podcast is ten plus years now.

1:06:53 if you're not scratching your own edge. That You end up just occupying a very unique type of mind share. for your audience and they are

1:07:05 Much more Interesting, much more powerful as a result of that. Well one thing I wanna ask you is you know. This is w sometimes we ask you about stuff like Basically four hour work week, which is I don't even know how many years old at this point, but like almost twenty years old. Almost twenty years old. That's crazy. Yeah.

1:07:22 And that's like what you were interested in earning out about then. Right. You were interested in earning out about like how do I free myself How do I dissociate my time and my money? How do I automate things? How do I delegate things? How do I do fear settings so that I can live a a rich life that I want to live right now? I could be really intentional about it. I'm sure some of those things just things you're still interested in, but some of them you're probably like, cool. Thus a mountain I climbed 10 years ago and I'm you know less interested now. So I'm curious what What are what are the things you're just most n interested in right now? Like what are you nerding out about? What are you obsessed with? What do you find yourself drawn to right now?

1:07:55 Yeah, we can go in all sorts of weird directions. So I'll I'll also say for people who might just be curious, like I still use almost everything in the four hour work week, minus the tech tools, obviously like go to my PCs, not something people are gonna default to. But I still use all that stuff. But it's necessary, not sufficient.

1:08:15 Right. For our body, same story. Like a lot of that stuff is in the news now. Came out in two thousand ten. Right, like exercise micro snacks and glucose transporters on muscle cells. Like that's for our body. It's it's making the news rounds now. uh because there's more scientific uh literature to to support it, but

1:08:37 Uh, I still use all that stuff, like the kettlebell swing, slow carb diet. Motatic crunches and all that stuff. I still use it all. Uh so As I've progressed, I think I've identified more and more for me and maybe for other people missing pieces, right?

1:08:54 And the game, right? Coyote is a good example of that. Right. It's like okay, yeah, sure. You can be the m the this the most incredible productivity. machine of all time and still be miserable and make your friends and family miserable. Right. It's actually more the rule than the exception. I mean it's like there are a lot of people who fit that bill. And uh a lot of my exploration These days, I would say since two thousand fifteen when I started SiSay Foundation for funding science related to mental health therapeutics primarily, and a huge chunk of that was scient uh psychedelic assisted therapies. Starting with like the earliest

1:09:31 uh dedicated centers, Imperial College London, Johns Hopkins, et cetera. But it's a it's it's not just that. It's brain stimulation of different types. Yeah l some longevity research, for instance r related to Rapamycin and canines, all sorts of stuff. And I'd say these days I am spending a lot of time

1:09:52 On The the a lot of it is science. And specifically What I have Is a working

1:10:01 hypothesis. No not the only person, but I think I'm looking cross. disciplinary uh at a number of different areas and they They seem to resonate with the same Possible commonality, which I'll say, and that's Looking at

1:10:18 maladaptive or chronic inflammation. As a shared underlying driver of a lot of problems that are solved with different tools. So for instance. Uh psychedelics are now topic de jour.

1:10:34 heavily destigmatized. There's a lot of experimentation on state and national levels being done, some super fascinating stuff. happening on the scientific front. And Some people say, Well, it's because of the content. Other people are like, Nope, it's because it hits the serotonin type two A receptors for certain types of psychedelics, blah, blah, blah, blah.

1:10:55 And you know, there are a lot of incentives involved. Like some people want to strip it out because it makes for an easier business model if people aren't hallucinating. But it turns out that a lot of these compounds have profound very, very strong and in some cases durable anti inflammatory effects. Okay. So let's put that aside for now, but I do think some of the anti inflammatory effects of psychedelics could account for a lot of what we see that

1:11:23 Is now Often explained. By other means. For instance, if you give people a depression Just straight up anti inflammatories.

1:11:32 And and you can find this on PubMed pretty easily. Uh Frequently, you will see an antidepressant effect or reported improvements. So what's going on there? Right. If you look at long covid, you look at Lyme disease, if you look at Alzheimer's.

1:11:47 If you look at certain neurodegenerative diseases. So Alzheimer's often referred to as type three diabetes, but uh there are elevated levels of certain uh inflammatory cytokines. It sh the list goes on and on and on. So I'm I've been doing a real deep dive on different means of

1:12:09 Safe anti inflammatory. Approaches to address chronic conditions. Right. So that could be, for instance, Sam, you already mentioned it, but something like Cold plunches. I do think there's a place for that. I am looking really closely. There's a lot of bullshit around about this, but uh I'm gonna interview who I consider to be the most credible scientist.

1:12:30 uh in this domain shortly, but vagus nerve stimulators. There's a lot. of Charlatan action uh in this particular subject. There's a lot of questionable devices being sold, but I do think there's something very, very interesting. With vagus nerve stimulation, which is actually

1:12:50 Two basic. Basically transatlantic cables running down either side of your neck with like a hundred thousand fibers on each side. And some of the effects that you can see with respect to Uh Autoimm disorders, by the way, some psychedelics seem to help with that. So what the hell's going on, right?

1:13:08 Uh Also inflammatory conditions of of different types, depression. Anxiety. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So when you look at Say the effects of psychedelics on

1:13:23 inflamed microcleal cells in the brain, which uh they do a bunch of things, but they're kind of like the cleanup crew in the brain. What happens if they're not functioning properly? Hm, interesting. You know, I have bunch of neurodegenerative disease in my family. And The more you look at this, the more it seems and infli inflammation I'll shut up in a second. It's kinda like it's kinda like saying, Oh, do you do business? Well, you're like, Well, what kind of business? There are a million types of business.

1:13:52 Same thing with inflammation. There are so many different markers, so many different inputs and outputs. That's currently what I'm going. uh full retard on. Like I've I've just been going into all the science. Calling. Calling scientists, emailing scientists. reading books, going through all the dense stuff.

1:14:13 Uh the other piece that I've Uh that that maybe something people are immediately interested in. And again, I think some of the pathways are the same. Yeah. Fasting, yet again. I mean I've paid a lot of attention to fasting.

1:14:28 wrote about it in Tools of Titans and kinda gave some of my protocols. that I tend to follow. For many, many years I was doing th a three day water fast every quarter and a week long fast every year. And then I lapsed and I stopped doing that, but uh Intermittent fasting is I think uh a a more

1:14:49 Easily complied with. experiment that people can run. So looking at sixteen eight fasting and there's there's a lot of good science out. uh out there about this, uh related to this. And to the person who popularized it is really Martin Birken, who's a Swedish bodybuilder. He has a he has a pretty abrasive personality, but he's quite smart and I love that guy's blog. Yeah, and starting back in the day, lean gains. He had

1:15:12 One of the largest cohorts of people who were experimenting along With him. on these protocols combining weight training with sixteen eight fasting. Sixteen eight fasting just means sixteen hours of fasting, eight hours. as a feeding window. So that could be like noon to eight or two to ten. And so credit where credit's due. He d he he had

1:15:32 for a long time, maybe still one of the most interesting cohorts and data sets. of real world results with this. And Uh For instance, I mean I have I've done all sorts of extended fasting.

1:15:48 three days, seven days, ten days. I don't recommend people just hop into that without proper medical supervision, because you can get yourself into some trouble if you're doing that degree of of pure fasting. But With the sixteen eight, as I mentioned, my my family's got a bunch of health stuff going on at the moment. And there's a lot of metabolic dysfunction in my family, just writ large across the board. And a lot of it seems uh genetically driven. Right.

1:16:15 So I can try almost any dietary intervention. I can try almost any exercise intervention really doesn't seem to move the needle much. And I get I get comprehensive, like the most comprehensive draws and your analysis and everything you can imagine. Probably every three months. And after doing Not very long, four to eight weeks of intermittent fasting.

1:16:38 uh my results on an oral glucose tolerance test just to look at insulin sensitivity and so on. Uh remarkable. Like the turnaround was just absolutely incredible. And Uh If you do it right.

1:16:52 And then let's just say you follow something like what Martin does and you're you're combining weight training properly. You can gain muscle mass and not lose muscle mass. Let me ask Sean real quick. Have you do you know who he's talking about with this guy Martin? No, I've never heard of this person. Oh my gosh. This is like if you're listening to this and you're below the age of thirty, you guys should go watch the learn about this person. So this was like right when Tim was in uh like coming up Martin was a blogger

1:17:20 This was sort of like around like the pickup artist days with the game and things like this. And he was a guy who taught you how to get ripped and look good. But it was sort of like he was everyone's father. And he had this really famous and and it was called Lean Gaze. LeanGains dot com. By the way, Tim, the the website's not even around. Uh, but he had a cult following and it was mostly set around this one attitude. He had a very he had a strong attitude, and he had this famous blog post called Fuck Around Titus. Yeah, fuck arounditis. Yeah. And it was this his whole uh philosophy on life was most people have fuckarontitis.

1:17:54 Which is You just go in the gym and you're gonna lift a little. However you feel, you're gonna do this. Maybe you'll eat a little food. You'll get a little protein, but like, you know, we're just gonna Do everything average. And his whole thing was nope, that's fuck around Titus and that's how you live a life of mediocrity. And if you want to get after it in the gym, you gotta get rid of fuck around Titus. This guy's copy on his stuff is great. His uh Instagram bio, the high priest of intermittent fasting. And then on his uh website, the his book, I think is Delean Gaines Method, The Art of Getting Ripped, Research, Practiced, and Perfected. And then he said

1:18:26 I'm Martin Birkin, the thinking man's muscle head. Not my words, but hey, it's true. Yeah, you he's not gonna die of lack of confidence. If anyone is reading this or listening to this And you want inspiration on like how to be a great creator. Go back it's been a long enough time that most people will have no idea who this guy is. Just steal a lot of his stuff. I mean he was he was really good. He was ahead of his time. He was also a uh massively prolific and thoughtful contributor on some of the very, very

1:18:57 early message boards. Yeah alongside Lyle McDonald and other folks. And because this is around the same time that I was getting online, you know, in college and then just post college. So I was a lurker on a lot of these message boards. Uh and uh he was very, very, very productive. And uh Always tried to cite research when possible, to his credit.

1:19:20 And also got uh very strong, right? I mean he he also um demonstrated some real strength. So The point being, intermittent fasting for a lot of people, I think, is not just something that will be easier to adhere to. The first week is gonna suck. I'm just gonna tell you, uh for most people.

1:19:40 You're gonna be grumpy, you're gonna be pissy, you're pr don't send too many sensitive emails because you're you're definitely gonna regret it. And then after a week or so your body adapts and you really start feeling very, very sharp, at least that's true for me. And it affected me in a way that the three days once a quarter or one week once a year, which I think has some benefit with respect to possible purging of precancerous cells and things like that. Um, which is not pure speculation. There's something to it. Um But the purposes in in some senses are different, and I would say very much complimentary. So the intermittent fasting

1:20:18 Uh Rhonda Patrick has had a number of scientists on her show found my fitness related to this that I think are are worth checking out. It's easy to test. Uh, along with that, I've been geeking out on. Exogenous ketones yet again, so supplemental ketones. To make the transition periods a little easier. So

1:20:40 So sometimes I'll just not eat for a day and then eat the next day. Or uh in the first week of that transition to boost cognitive performance, especially looking at supplemental ketones, there's one that's pretty easy to find. called I think it's just ketone Q I T O N E That you can

1:20:59 add into your coffee in the morning and treat it as creamer. Uh, if you've never had this stuff before, I would recommend uh s most people are fine. I would say stay close to a bathroom. You may have a rapid onset of possible disaster paths and you'll want to be close to a bathroom. So don't have it for the first time as you're driving to the airport for an international flight. Don't do that. Have you ever heard this idea? There's like a a funny like phrase where um It's like whatever the Silicon Valley nerds are doing on their weekends, that's gonna be mainstream in five years. Hundred percent. You're who they were talking about. Uh like you know, uh like the many of the things that you were writing about in four hour work week is now uh common.

1:21:39 Uh, and you were one of the guys. And and you also said one of your skill sets was spotting trends. What do you think are the things now Uh w what what are the early things now that in five years are gonna be quite common? Yeah, I think uh I think one is definitely In simple terms, electricity over pills.

1:22:00 So different types of whether it's brain stimulation, something like accelerated TMS, people should look into accelerated TMS and take a look at that. Uh the interview I did with Nolan Williams of Stanford is a good starting point. But uh the results that a lot of patients are able to get from treatment resistant depression. O C D anxiety, etc.

1:22:23 Five days of accelerated TMS. rival a lot of the results that you would see with Some of the best outcomes with psychedelics. Which are already In terms of effect size and so on, well beyond most conventional treatments. That's a gr that's a great phrase, too. Electricity over pills. Like that's Yeah, and I think I'm borrowing'cause I th I think one of the many things I've been reading, one is from a scientist named Kevin Tracy, and I think he said maybe it was microchips over medications. So

1:22:50 Want to give credit where credit's due. But I have been looking at this very, very closely because psychedelics are not for everyone. Let's be very clear. I mean that is nuclear power. Within the psychiatric and psychological realm and people there are people who should not take psychedelics. There are risks, very real risks.

1:23:11 And It's It's like seventeenth dimension neurosurgery. There's a lot going on. There's a lot to be learned.

1:23:20 And there are certain conditions that typically at this point are exclusionary criteria. So if you have these conditions, you cannot be part of a clinical trial taking psychedelics. Schizophrenia. Bipolar disorder. Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? Borderline personality disorder. There's a pretty long list. And

1:23:38 It looks like These conditions might be treatable through different types of brain stimulation. And the safety profile is very, very, very good. Also separately. And it's and this comes back to the anti inflammation and all all these things tie together. It's not just anti-inflammation, to be clear, but

1:23:56 Metabolic psychiatry, another thing that is uh very interrelated. Uh, Chris Palmer of Harvard is someone to look up on this front. Basically ketogenic diet. So ketogenic diet at that People may know the Atkins diet. People may have heard of the ketogenic diet. It was used very effectively, I want to say in the early 1900s, with

1:24:18 Epileptic children. For whom it was devised. in in this particular way with heavy cream. And similarly when people would be having like a schizophrenic or psychotic break. Sometimes.

1:24:30 hundreds of years ago they would just be put in a room and fasted. And then lo and behold, after a few days, quote unquote, the demons would go away. Okay, well what's actually happening there, right? So metabolic psychiatry along with brain stimulation. I think can address s a lot of segments of the population that will not be candidates for something like psychedelic assistant therapy.

1:24:52 Uh It also ha uh well, I could go on and on and on. But those are Yeah, a few examples. Do you have electric Electric over pills, metabolic psychiatry, anything else? Uh I'm very curious to continue looking at the the vanguard of exogenous ketones because getting people to follow ketogenic diet is very difficult.

1:25:14 Uh I I have I think a lot of discipline in the dietary area and I've done I did I did cyclical ketogenic a cyclical ketogenic diet. Um For a very, very long time. People it that that that has gone by different names. I think Maro di Pasquale, if I'm saying his name correctly, I read that book in college, calls it the anabolic diet. But it it requires you to be very, very meticulous. And I did that for years. But

1:25:40 Today, at this point in my life, I find the ketogenic. Diet. Uh, not to get too technical. Boring as fuck. It is so boring. And you end up feeling like a human cheesecl. It's just it's not that fun. You think it's gonna be fun. You're like, Oh, cheeseburgers every day? That sounds awesome. Like yeah, talk to me on day 20. And For that reason, and particularly when we're dealing, let's say

1:26:01 Mo uh older people. elderly patients who are not gonna change their ways. Is it possible to use supplemental ketones to get some of the benefits? And it seems like the answer is yes. There are case studies that in the literature that you can find. Uh, but there are some open questions that I have, and this is beyond my pay grade, so I need to talk to someone. But I if you have really elevated glucose levels and you also have very elevated

1:26:28 Say levels of B H B. Is that good for you long term? Like what are the implications of that long term, if any, right? Because it sounds a lot like keto acidosis. In diabetics, which is Not a desirable condition. So Uh I th I do

1:26:44 think there's a lot to uncover here. Unfortunately, some of the ketones the higher quality Mono esters and diesters can be very, very expensive. But Uh, and by expensive I mean like you're spending Forty bucks a serving, right?

1:27:03 So T B D. I hope more people um begin to look at this'cause the more demand there is, the more people experimenting, the cheaper these things will get. with with uh economies of scale. So That's that's what I'll throw out there. I'm sure we could talk about tech stuff.

1:27:17 Uh if you want to talk about that. Actually I'll give you one more. And that is I am so long. Analog like analog and social. I'm super long analog and social. I'm not sure we're gonna have like a full blown But Larry and Jihad uh to uh refer to Dune, which is the the rising up and destruction of the thinking machines, but

1:27:40 I think there's gonna be a lot of pushback and blowback and kind of retro I don't want to say retro. But

1:27:52 I think there will be a a heavy shift for a lot of people in the world. Towards Human made. An log. and or social interaction and you already see certain signs of that, right?

1:28:05 A lot of Younger people are just like fuck this dating app. Nonsense. and social media stuff and they're they're going to running clubs for their for the for trying to trying to find people to date. Have you seen that, Sean? Do you know about this? Yeah, we've talked about running clubs. One one I just Was reading about recently was book clubs.

1:28:24 Both clubs are apparently like just on a tear right now and they're doing Kinda like a twist on the book club, which is basically like They'll do silent reading. Everybody gets together. You don't talk. You're just reading together in the presence of each other. Or it'll be like wine and read or beard and read. Like just kind of like books as an excuse. to go hang out in person together doing it. Have you guys seen that um young kids like the twenty and nineteen year old kids are using the same cameras that you and I we all used when we were seventeen. So you remember when you're like seventeen and you use like a Canon digital camera and you make like a Facebook photo album on uh whatever That's what kids are doing now. Like they don't want to use their phone. They want to use the like development film. Thirty pictures type of thing. Well they'll yeah, but no, they'll use like remember the Canons? It it it has a much simpler L C D screen and there's like when you go out with your friends and you post like

1:29:16 Friday, October fourteenth, two thousand and fourteen. That's like the title on Facebook of like your photo album. That's what kids are doing now. And that I and I think that's just the very, very, very tip of the iceberg of this feeling of less Connection or less uh digital. Yeah, and isolation, loneliness, all this stuff. I mean, like the younger generations aren't stupid, right? Sometimes there are these Sort of commentaries from uh

1:29:42 The older wizard folk are like, Oh, those kids don't know what they're doing to themselves. I'm like, Oh, I think they have a pretty fucking good idea, probably more so than you do. Uh And I Other examples would be huge game nights. in say New York City and other cities. Like huge hundreds of people, right? Started with two or three people and now it's at hundreds of people playing games simultaneously. So I find that uh

1:30:07 an interesting thread to pull on. Do I know how to bet on that? No, I'm not in a rush. Tim, you're um I feel this way oftentimes when I get done talking with you where I'm like You are cooler than I remember.

1:30:21 Wh w it basically just means like like uh we don't know each other that well, but like I I read about you and I listen to your podcast and then I actually hang out with you uh every once in a while. And I'm like That's why he is who he is. Uh you know, Sam, doesn't it feel like you just had a podcast guest from the future come in?'Cause he's He's saying words, he's like, Oh yeah, no accelerated TMS. I don't even know what TMS is, let alone accelerated TMS. I'm writing down words like

1:30:46 I know the I know enough to know that these are gonna be a big deal in five years. I should probably start going paying attention because he's done that four times already over the last twenty years. I should just I should just pay attention to this this alien from the future who just came in and are the same. You know what it's sort of like? Have you guys ever met uh so you watch professional athletes on TV and then you meet him in real life. And like I remember like meeting one in real life and and he just like jumped to do his warm up and his jump in the air was like I was like, Oh my God. Like the That's kinda how I feel like when I hang out with Tim, where you're like Oh yeah, that's why he's a pro. Thanks, guys.

1:31:23 Yeah. It's um You know, you gotta sacrifice some hair along the way. Thanks, thanks, thanks very much. Alright, that's it. That's the pod. Thank you, Tim.

1:31:35 Well I know. But I want to I put my all in it like my day's off On the roadless travel, never looking back All right, my friends, I have a new podcast for you guys to check out. It's called Content is Profit. And it's hosted by Luis and Fonzi Cameo. After years of building content teams and frameworks for companies like Red Bull and Orange Theory Fitness, Louise and Fonsey are on a mission to bridge the gap between content and revenue.

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